Clay Travis on Racial Paternalism in Sports
Before you advocate for a higher NBA age minimum, guess how many pro baseball players have college degrees.
4 months ago
Ziller
171 comments
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Comments
Pretty spot on
I enjoyed reading some of the comments to the article – nothing gets people fired up like exposing the subtle racism shaping many of their opinions. You can almost predict the responses before you read them.
With the 4th pick in the 2009 NBA Draft, the Sacramento Kings select Tyreke Evans, STUD out of Memphis.
by otis29 on Jun 30, 2009 5:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I agree
Oh, and Otis, I didn’t realize you finally update your signature, hahaha, nice.
by Kreuz on Jun 30, 2009 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty much Otis
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
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by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No this is stupid.
The MLB has a farm system in place, whereas the NBA doesn’t. THAT’S the difference. The NCAA ACTS like a farm system, but adds universal education and limitations on the players trade, which is sad. But that’s how it is. Until the NBDL becomes a TRUE farm system for the NBA, this is how it is, and it IS better for the NBA to have 19 and 20 y/o’s in the draft rather than 18 year olds. That extra year or two of evaluation with BETTER competition, DOES allow teams to get a more accurate read on players real worth.
by Smills91 on Jun 30, 2009 6:11 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Because
what could possibly be more important than teams getting a more accurate read on players’ real worth?
That is selfish thinking.
by Ziller on Jun 30, 2009 6:22 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
How is it selfish
For a business to want to get an accurate read on a player’s real worth before guaranteeing him millions of dollars on a multi-year contract?
I don’t get it.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
One example
Without the age minimum, DeMar DeRozan would have been a lottery pick in 2008.
DeMar’s mom has lupus. DeMar wants to provide the best health care possible for his mom. Unfortunately, in this country, that requires money. The DeRozan family was not rich.
DeRozan’s mom had to wait an extra year for the “comfort” of good health care so that a multi-million dollar enterprise like the Raptors or the Kings could do less scouting work on high school kids.
The age minimum is unfair. If these kids are good enough, they shouldn’t be forced to wait.
by Ziller on Jun 30, 2009 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Okay
But couldn’t DeRozan have gone to one of the many professional basketball leagues that doesn’t have an age minimum if his mom’s life was in jeopardy? If he wanted to stay close by her, he could’ve joined the NBDL, where the minimum is 18.
This is actually a great example. DeRozan was drafted 9th this year. He’ll play his first game in the NBA as a 20 year-old making $2.2M (and he won’t be the youngest player or the richest 20 year-old). The youngest player in the MLB at the beginning of this season was 21 year-old Clayton Kershaw of the Dodgers. He was drafted 7th overall in 2006 straight out of highschool, and will make $400K this season. You tell me who’s better off.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
$400k after the $2.3 million signing bonus that he received after getting drafted…
by coachtheus on Jun 30, 2009 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
D-Leagues salaries ...
… range from $12,000 to $25,000. He shouldn’t have to move to Turkey to start his career.
by Ziller on Jun 30, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
$25,000
Not a bad salary for a kid fresh out of highschool; I bet they have healthcare in the NBDL too.
I’m not saying the system is perfect. In fact, I think it kinda sucks. I just recognize the problem that this specific rule seeks to assuage and believe in the NBA’s right to institute it. I don’t think it should be set in stone, but I do think that an age requirement should be available to the League for as long as it deems it necessary.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
fine then...
…take away guaranteed contracts then. Allowing teams to escape from busts.
by Smills91 on Jun 30, 2009 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then it would be fair to allow players to escape from contracts that no longer benefit them as well.
Oh wait, then there wouldn’t be any contracts at all.
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope
There would still be contracts, don’t worry.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Empoyee vs. Employer
You work FOR you employer. It’s not the other way around.
by Smills91 on Jun 30, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And we pay to see the employees
not the other way around.
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On second thought
I take that back. I shouldn’t give your stupid comment that much credit. The Employer/employee relationship is completely irrelevant. The current contract system is in place to maintain continuity for the fanbase while still allowing some flexibility. To imply that one side should be able to break them, and the other side shouldn’t is ridiculous.
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rookie deals
are two years long. No. 1 picks get $9-10 million guaranteed. Come on.
by Ziller on Jun 30, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's a big problem
After you’ve invested a top-ten pick, $5-10M in salary, and a disproportionate amount of the time and energy of your staff on the player, he’s still 20 years old and you could easily have no better idea of what his NBA future holds. Yes, it’s a risk and it needs to be treated as such by NBA front offices. But since the team’s welfare, which these sorts of risky decisions can have a large part in defining, affects so much more than the owners’ bottom line, I think it’s safer to just regulate against the threat and accept that it puts 1-2 players per year in a disadvantageous position.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
at least until a better system is developed^
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a better system
Let the smart teams thrive by allowing them to draft the players that they deem the most talented without any arbitrary restrictions.
Protecting stupid GM’s from themselves reduces the competitive advantage teams like the Spurs and Kings have by not running their team like idiots.
If you really want to simplify the decision making process that much, then let’s raise the minimum age to 26. I’m pretty sure teams will be able to tell who has talent by then.
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
That the NBA franchises are much more qualified to make the decision about where the line is between being able to best evaluate talent and missing out on young talent that is ready than you or me. Remember, the NBA isn’t trying to sabatoge its own product.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure the NBA is acting in their own best interests
but it has nothing to do with any point you’ve made. The only reason is that they want to utilize the NCAA to exploit market their players for free, so that they are famous before the NBA has to pay them.
Coercing players that are capable of playing in the NBA to attend college (where they are not allowed to make any money) so that the NBA can get some free marketing bothers me for a lot of reasons.
I really hope the players union puts up a better fight in the next CBA.
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You nailed part of it. The college experience and name recognition gives the NBA something to sell upon entering the draft. . . but they are paying these guys multi-million dollar contracts. Only makes business sense that the player can actually sell some tickets to merit their contract.
Part you missed:
However, the majority of these guys are not NBA ready. The NBA has a draft process and thus was never a free market to begin with. Boston was never allowed to offer Blake Griffin a contract of employment, neither were 28 other teams.
Any union worth it’s salt would make the criteria of employment harder to protect it’s current members. 4 years out of college makes more sense than 2 years out of college from a union’s perspective.
Also, many industries come up with standards so they don’t sabotage each other. You may think having one idiot GM is fine, but that one idiot can negatively affect the entire industry, thus minimum standards are often created.
by bignerd on Jun 30, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I won't argue with your points about smart business
David Stern is a detestable human being, but his business savvy is undeniable. Somehow he managed to greatly diminish the quality of the product while increasing it’s profits – takes a brilliant business man to do that.
My objections have to do with the fairness of the policy. It is essentially exploiting a minority group (talented high schoolers) in order to benefit the majority. This offends me, and I hope it backfires. If they change the rule to two years instead of one, then I think it will. There will be a whole lot more players skipping the country to play in relative obscurity in Europe if they have to wait two years to earn a paycheck over here.
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ignorant
Is this a stashed-away SacBee article??? Ailene?
So the two major sports that don’t have a farm system are the two that want their prospects to stay in school longer? Duh.
by PurplePurple on Jun 30, 2009 7:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Right
A farm system really develops a player mentally and in terms of maturity. I fail to see how the existence of Fresno Grizzlies validates an age restriction on NBA players.
by Ziller on Jun 30, 2009 7:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you serious?
You don’t think that baseball’s minor leagues develop players’ maturity? Why do you suppose they make every player go through them?
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you known any baseball players?
Mature does not fit most of them. however, it does develop their professional acumen
by mayfieldcol on Jun 30, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
anti-rec'd for generalization
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
by JediLeroy on Jun 30, 2009 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't hate on my grizzlies!
Great, great, great venue for AAA ball, I highly reccomend checking out a game in Fresno, there are almost no bad seats in that park.
by Citadel 29 on Jun 30, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not ripping them
But I have no idea why we think baseball players who spend a few years in the minors are more mature than basketball players who go preps-to-pros.
by Ziller on Jun 30, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're better off
Because they’re able to learn to be a professional without all the publicity and pressure, learn from guys who are somewhat successful but not superstars and learn to live like those guys do, which helps ensure that they won’t go out and spend all their money on apocryphal $50,000 watches, etc.
by bartenpa on Jun 30, 2009 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure about maturity but...
But I have no idea why we think baseball players who spend a few years in the minors are more mature than basketball players who go preps-to-pros.
Is it about maturity? I thought it was about their bodies and basketball ability being further developed so they can actually be competitive in the NBA, thus making a team’s multi-million dollar investment worth while.
(Agreed, mayfield.)
by JETisKing on Jun 30, 2009 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
So who exactly is feeling the racial paternalism?
Joe Public doesn’t have a say in this. It isn’t decided by popular vote. The article offers no evidence whatsoever to support the idea that the processes set in place by professional football and basketball are race related in any way. The best he does is suggest that Sport A requires a year of college before allowing players to turn pro, Sport A has more of Race B, therefore Sport A requires this year of college out of a misguided sense of racial paternalism for Race B. It’s simplistic to the point of absurdity.
I’m sure there are some jackasses out there who see this rule in place and think to themselves, oh good those young black men could use some direction in their lives. But the reality is it’s boardrooms and businesses that are making these decisions. And boardrooms and businesses as entities don’t see race – they see money. With the level of scouting occurring at the high school level now (and even earlier), the NCAA would be doomed in relatively short order if they had no means to take advantage of top tier talent before it flees for the NBA.
It isn’t right. Players should be allowed to make the decisions that are best for themselves and their families. If there’s a professional team willing to pay and eighteen year old kid millions of dollars to play ball, they should have to spend a year of their life in uninsured, indentured servitude to the NCAA. But like it or not, all of that still does not make this about race.
Just follow the money.
A lonely Kings fan in a sea of gold and purple...
by Jaycee on Jun 30, 2009 7:54 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Spelling! Grammar!
*an eighteen year old kid…
*shouldN’T have to spend…
And probably more. Sorry!
A lonely Kings fan in a sea of gold and purple...
by Jaycee on Jun 30, 2009 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can go to Iraq or Afghanistan, but you can't go to the NFL or NBA
’Nuff said.
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by section214 on Jun 30, 2009 8:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
For me, that doesn't quite solve the argument
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that because
you’re viewing it from the standpoint of the impact on the NBA and their product? And tha’s OK if you are. But my view is that the right of the individual is greater than the right of the monopoly.
Power to the people.
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by section214 on Jun 30, 2009 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's basically it
And I’d add that I neither think that anyone has the right to play in the NBA, nor that the NBA is a monopoly.
But I do agree with your message of power to the people.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fair enough
I feel that a an 18 year old should have the same right as a 19 year old. That right should not be denied because NBA owners can’t control themselves.
Somehow the NBA pulled of their “golden age” while this rule was not in place. I think that it is foolish and un-American to deny an adult the opportunity to pursue his chosen craft. And while I understand the other side of this opinion, I will almost certainly never agree with it.
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by section214 on Jun 30, 2009 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well we're definitely improving our quickness at arriving at this stalemate
So that’s good.
Here’s one you’re not gonna like: Do you think that 49 year olds should be able to join the PGA Senior tour if they’re good enough to compete?
And here’s how the NBA pulled off its golden age without this rule:
Salaries of Dream Team players for the ‘92-’93 season
Jordan – $4M
Magic – $2.5M
Bird – $2.3M
Barkley – $2.42M
Mullin – $2.8M
Ewing – $3.3M
Malone – $2.85M
Stockton – $2.2M
Robinson – (a whopping) $5.7M
Pippen – $3.4M
Drexler – $1.4M
Laettner – $2.7M
I would also add that there wasn’t a single 18 year old that played a second of NBA basketball during the period from Bird and Magic entering the league through Jordan’s first retirement, and after that it was still exceedingly rare through the end of the ’90s.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on
The PGA argument is the other side of the coin – that age limit is there to prevent younger golfers from competing with their older counterparts. Am I to believe that this rule is in place to protect CP3 from John Wall?!? I have no problem with WNBA not wanting to let guys in, just in case that was to be your next salient argument. Meanwhile (and much more germane to this argument), there is no minimum age for becoming a pro on the PGA tour – you don’t even have to be 18.
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by section214 on Jun 30, 2009 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I admit that I was just trying to get a rise out of you with that one
But while the PGA tour doesn’t have an age requirement, it does pay pro players based on performance in PGA events (and allows amateurs to play with pros). So I hardly think it’s more germane to this argument.
I just don’t believe in a completely unregulated market for NBA talent. Franchises with limited financial resources (like the Kings) have to be able to protect themselves from the escalation of speculation on unproven players. Proven NBA players have to be able to protect themselves against losing their jobs to 14 year old could-bes. All NBA prospects have to do is wait until the year they turn 19 to be drafted; it’s not a bad deal, and it’s not “un-American”.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Kings can protect themselves by not taking a risk that they are unwilling to take.
They don’t need somebody else to force them not to make a stupid decision. This idea of protecting teams from themselves is pathetic. The NBA never made a rule that Elgin Baylor isn’t allowed to run an NBA franchise.
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The NBA is a BUSINESS...
…they can DO AS THEY CHOOSE. If you don’t like it, don’t patronize them. Markets will dictate whether they succeed or not. They don’t HAVE to play basketball.
This who ‘entitlement’ mentality is cancerous to our society. If these kids NEED things NOW, then go get a loan, and pay it off when you get your check.
I want to be a dentist and have to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars to do so, I don’t have that kind of cash now, but I know I COULD after I finish my education and can pay it back later.
This whole ‘RACISM’ attempt is crap. If you want ‘RACISM’ in America today, look no further than Affirmative Action. It puts LESS qualified people into prominent positions, due to filling a certain ‘QUOTA’.
No one’s screaming over that injustice in America. But the NBA puts an ‘AGE’ limit on players in their league, and people set their hair on fire and call it racism.
NO, I don’t buy it for a second. THE REASON BASEBALL, GOLF and other don’t is that their is a minor-league/amateur SYSTEM in PLACE BELOW the Big league.
Football and Basketball Don’t. It’s not racism. It’s logistics.
by Smills91 on Jun 30, 2009 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So...
I say again, they are “entitled” to fight for our country but not “entitled” to play professional basketball in the USA (remember, the NBA owns the developmental league, too).
That does not make sense to me. Never will.
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by section214 on Jun 30, 2009 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
...no one FORCES them to go into the military today...
…so that’s an invalid argument. IF they got drafted, SURE I’d be more prone to taking issue with it. But that hasn’t happened in the lifetime of ANY of these players, and likely won’t either.
And why are you even trying to cross over governmental REGULATIONS onto a corporate enterprise.
You’re comparing a public sector to a private sector. This is apples and oranges.
by Smills91 on Jun 30, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one FORCES them into the NBA either.
That’s the point – they are both choices that they should be free to make.
If a team wants to sign an 18-year-old, and the player wants to sign with the team, then why should the league step in and not allow it?
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that's just the thing
The teams have collectively agreed to not sign any 18 year olds. So the 18 year old is free to exercise his right to enter his name, and the NBA is free to exercise its right to deny him. What entities do you think constitute the “Association” if not the franchises?
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can they collectively agree to deny people by race or sexual preference?
Not sucessfully!
by mayfieldcol on Jun 30, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Race and sexual preference
don’t affect suitability for the NBA. Age does. Disagree? Imagine who would be the first person to spell HORSE in a game between white LeBron James, gay LeBron James, and 10 year old LeBron James.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But 18 is the age of legal majority.
18 year-old Lebron James was good enough ot make rookie of the year. Before the age limit the ROY had been won by high-school jumpers something like 4 years in a row.
by mayfieldcol on Jun 30, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I would be an idiot to argue that there aren’t 18 year-olds out there who are ready for the NBA. I just recognize (what I see as) the NBA’s right to protect itself from the guys who look like they may become NBA players at 18 but actually never will, at the expense of losing one year of the anomolies like LeBron.
And before anybody makes the argument that “prep-to-pro” players have been just as or more successful than their counterparts who spent at least one post-highschool year outside of the NBA, read this list and note the sharp increase in busts starting with the first post-lockout draft in 1999 when NBA salaries had skyrocketed.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That list
Doesn’t mean a darn thing if it’s not compared to something else – I would love to see a study of the bust ratio of players in the last 20 years who entered out of high school, and played one, two, three or four years of college ball.
With the 4th pick in the 2009 NBA Draft, the Sacramento Kings select Tyreke Evans, STUD out of Memphis.
by otis29 on Jun 30, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It means something to me
It means that the rate of prep-to-pro busts was rising, and the NBA created a rule to address that problem.
You’re right that it doens’t speak to the success rate of college, junior college, or international players. But that doesn’t make it meaningless in its limited context.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looking at that list IS meaningless
The bust rate was about 100% from 1989-1997, dipped in 1998-2001, rose in 2002-2003, dipped in 2004 and rose in 2005 (although the jury is still out on some of these players).
There’s not enough “there” there to make a determination one way or the other. The only way to make the data useful is to compare it to the overall bust rate (once you determine the criteria for such).
With the 4th pick in the 2009 NBA Draft, the Sacramento Kings select Tyreke Evans, STUD out of Memphis.
by otis29 on Jun 30, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
The first paragraph is a mess. I screwed the pooch on that…here’s a little deeper analysis:
1989-1997: I think you’d be hard pressed to call any of these players a “bust”
1998-2001: Pretty much a mess – busts to be had across the board, with only a few exceptions.
2002-2004: Pretty successful group of NBA players overall.
2005: Jury is out, but this is a so-so group – and it may be too early to tell.
So if the NBA had instituted this rule in 2001, I might be more inclined to agree. But the results since then don’t appear to back up your premise. If anything, the rate of prep-to-pro busts was shrinking, from 2001-2005.
With the 4th pick in the 2009 NBA Draft, the Sacramento Kings select Tyreke Evans, STUD out of Memphis.
by otis29 on Jun 30, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's what I see
But I won’t ask you to keep staring at the magic eye if you still disagree.
*1989 – 1998: 9 guys make the leap, 2/9 Hall of Famers, 5/9 multiple-time allstars, 8/9 indisputably a value for their draft position, 1/9 bust.
*1999 – 2005: 31 guys make the leap, complete mixed bag, a couple of potential Hall of Famers, 7/31 possible allstar-caliber players, 13.5/31 indisputable busts (.5 for Livingston because injuries ruined him, but maybe he wouldn’t have sustained them if he didn’t have a HS kid’s body).
I think the 2005 class is a great example: They’ve been in the league for four full seasons, their rookie contracts are done, and – with the possible exception of Ellis – we have virtually no idea how close any of these guys will come to realizing their (generally high) potential. An extra year doesn’t solve that problem, but it helps.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're looking at it entirely wrong
The reason the results of players that made the leap out of high school has declined is because more players have done it. Prior to 1999, only truly elite talents skipped college, but recently there have been middling talents that decided to skip college to go to the pros.
The only fair way to evaluate the degree of success is to look at how successful they were based on their average draft position. A player getting drafted in the second round out of high school not having a successful career should not be considered a bust – that’s typical of 2nd round draft picks. Most college players drafted late don’t become successful either.
I don’t think the success rate by draft position is any worse for high school players than it is for college players. I’d wager it’s been better, actually.
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did look at their draft position
If I had just gone by the criteria that players hadn’t made a significant impact on the league, there would be many more busts.
As I keep reiterating, I’m not trying to argue that college players do better in the NBA than HS players have.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then I don't get your point
If sending players to college doesn’t reduce the likelihood of a player being a bust….
It means that the rate of prep-to-pro busts was rising, and the NBA created a rule to address that problem.
….then how does that make sense?
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Otis I did some of that awhile ago
Here is part 1. Here is part 2.
I’ll admit some of the data I did post was somewhat incomplete, but I do include what years that players left school.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks pookey
I’ll take a look tonight.
by otis29 on Jun 30, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
And because I am not as upset about this as you are, I won’t need to use capital letters…let’s compare apples with apples.
An 18 year old male in this country can play professional baseball, hockey, golf, tennis, soccer. He can race professionally, he can fight professionally. He can be a professional track and field athlete, he can bike professionally. In fact, he can do almost anything in the athletic field professionally, except play professional football and basketball (but he can play professional basketball outside this great free country of ours). This-makes-no-sense-to-me.
And 1 – I’m not convinced as to the racial aspect of this story, and up until now I have not commented on it. But I will say that if I were among a people that was enslaved in this free country for a nearly a century, deprived the opportunity to make a fair living…or ride in the front of a bus…or drink out of a drinking fountain…or walk down the street without fear of getting my head stoved in…well, I might just have my antenna up when it comes to unfair restraint.
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by section214 on Jun 30, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Concerning racism...
…those that experiences those travesties DID do those things.
What bothers me today, is the rising generation DID NOT have ANY of those things done to them, but still use the race card to victimize themselve into getting what they want or to gain an additional advantage on the heartstrings of the those that feel ‘guilty’ for their ancestors.
Let’s live in TODAY. Racism, will ALWAYS exist in small pockets, but it’s NOT sweeping the nation in any form, except ‘reverse-discrimination’ code introduced by our very own government. Affirimtive action is exactly that, reverse discrimination.
by Smills91 on Jun 30, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta love the term "reverse discrimination"
People get so outraged when racism happens in the opposite way that they think it’s supposed to happen.
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Let's live in today."
Easier said than done for anyone that experienced racism up close and personal.
I have met family members that were imprisoned in Nazi Germany death camps. When you see the numbers stenciled on their arms, you are chilled, and it stays with you forever, as it should.
If you are an African American in this country (or an Asian American, or a Latino American, or an American Indian), you are not too far removed from racism that impacted your family. These folks do “live in today,” but their today is shaped by the events that took place in the not to distant past.
I am intrigued when people bristle so at reverse discrimination, but are so dismissive of the discrimination that has befallen groups of people in the past. The “reverse discrimination” that you speak of is a drop of water in the ocean when compared to events of the past (slavery, internment camps, right to vote denied based on gender). I would say that we are closer today as a country than we have ever been when it comes to a “level playing field” – the disparity today is as much socio-economic as it is racial. But if you do not think that it exists, I disagree. And the lessons of the past prove that this cannot be ignored.
Put it another way – this started as a conversation about whether an 18 year old man should be allowed to play in the NBA. There was a time that this discussion would not have pertained to anyone of color, as they were denied the opportunity to play in the NBA, period.
We now return to our regularly scheduled program.
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by section214 on Jun 30, 2009 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to be difficult
But one can easily argue (and in fact I do) that the American Indian (Native American) was hurt far worse than the African slaves. But, at the same time, it’s hard impossible to argue that their lives haven’t been shaped by an intolerable level of racism and bigotry that shaped this country’s 5 decades in total.
Racism ain’t going nowhere. And, as a white male with no Jewish ancestry (that I know of), the last thing I’m worried about is affirmative action.
Speaking of regularly scheduled programing, why aren’t we complaining that we just got a player who could lift our franchise who had an incident of gang banging where he took part in another kid getting shot. Umm, regularly schedule programming is clearly not helping me.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand how the "they can fight for our country" argument applies
You think that since 18 year-olds can serve in the military, they should be able to play in the NBA?
Do you think that since homosexuals are banned from military service, they should also be banned from the NBA?
There isn’t a correlation between the type of people who are qualified for military service and the type of people who are qualified to play in the NBA. Even if there was, I personally wouldn’t assume that the laws dictating qualification were at all ethical, given their track record. So let’s put that argument to bed.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do not think that homosexuals should be banned from the military, either
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jun 30, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good
so let’s not use the military as a model for NBA eligibility. I don’t mean to put words in your mouth, I just don’t think that law speaks to this issue.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not a function of law
It’s a function of common sense.
If I am to believe that an 18 year old can defend our country, then I have to believe that he can handle the rigors of the NBA. Plain. Simple. Truth.
Now, the NBA does not want to allow 18 year olds to play, which is their right as a business, especially one that does not have to worry much about competition.
The only reason that this rule exists is to save the NBA owners from themselves. This rule gives owners an opportunity to see players develop for an additional year. Fine and dandy. I don’t agree with it.
If 18 year old adults were allowed entry into the NBA, each team would have to determine the risk vs. the reward. I like that much better than implementing rules that save sujb-standard owners and GM’s from themselves while depriving a legal adult an opportunity to earn a wage at what he does best. But hey, that’s just me.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jun 30, 2009 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is common sense
To believe that an 18 year old can handle the rigors of the NBA, because there are multiple players who have done so successfully at that age. That’s just not the argument that I’m making.
As for the rest of it, I respect your point of view, but I disagree with it. Although I hate to find myself agreeing with David Stern, that’s where my conscience sides every time I run through the arguments.
by furious.d on Jun 30, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points, Furious.
There are no correlations between the four ‘major’ american sports. NHL and MLB are two totally different beasts than the NBA and NFL. It was said before that the NHL and MLB have dedicated farm systems that allow their raw talent to grow physically and professionally. The NBA and the NFL do not.
Another difference is the physicality of each sport. I don’t know if the NHL or MLB require their athletes to take hits from 6’6" 320 pound defensive tackles or understand the nuances of playing on the wing of a motion offense based on reads. A year of college never hurt anybody.
by JETisKing on Jun 30, 2009 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The NHL is not physical?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jul 1, 2009 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there an NHL equivalent
to a 320 pound athlete, running at full speed and hitting you in mid air? I’ve seen the fights, I’ve seen collisions against the boards, but I don’t read/hear about anyone being paralyzed in the NHL.
I didn’t state that the NHL is not physical, but did imply that the NFL is more physical than the NHL. The average career length of an NHL player is 2 years more than the average career of an NFL player. In my 3 minutes of research, it supports my uneducated opinion.
by JETisKing on Jul 1, 2009 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're painting in an awfully small box here
The NBA is not as physical as the NHL but it is more cerebral, so college is needed.
The NFL is more physical than the NHL, so college is needed.
I have a great deal of respect for your opinions, so I must be missing something here. The notion that you need a little college to play pro basketball or football but not baseball or hockey is lost on me.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jul 1, 2009 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay
So if you’re a GM for an NFL team you’re really going to draft an 18 year old out of high school to be your left tackle that’s going to protect your multi-million dollar quarterback?
From an NBA standpoint – How often do LeBron and Dwight Howard come around? Neither player contributed all-star numbers till their 2nd or 3rd year. It took Kobe 4 years to really start putting up numbers. It’s arguable that most of these high school prospects would be more NBA-ready if they spent a year or so in college to hone their games. A fine example of that is Brandon Roy, who was hyped as a high school senior, stayed all four years in college, was drafted and immediately contributed in his rookie year.
If I’m a GM for an NBA team I’m not going to invest millions on some kid that was a star on the AAU circuit where the competition is far below the NCAA.
As others have already said – There are 5 Ndudi Ebis for every Kobe, if not more.
But whatever, I’m cool with agreeing to disagree.
by JETisKing on Jul 2, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you're a GM for an NFL team
And you believe that 18 year old won’t be able to protect your multi-million dollar quarterback, you don’t draft him. Or you take a chance on him later in the draft.
If I’m a GM for an NBA team I’m not going to invest millions on some kid that was a star on the AAU circuit where the competition is far below the NCAA.
Then don’t draft him. If you are averse to the risk and don’t feel the reward is sufficient that is.
Why is it so important to coddle the GMs? I can’t imagine how hard it is for a basketball player to be a success in the NBA. It should be hard work for the General Managers too…or everyone would be doing it right?
And there are 5 Shelden Williams for every Kobe, if not more.
StR noobs: More oxygen, less THC please.
by otis29 on Jul 3, 2009 5:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NBDL is a bullshit half measure
period.
by bartenpa on Jun 30, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe
Anyone is arguing that the NBA cannot do what they are doing. The “why” and whether it’s right or wrong is the argument.
Dismissing racism as a factor out-of-hand is asinine – and sticking your caps lock really isn’t going to change that. The NBA is busy attempting to sell a predominantly black sport to a predominantly white audience. Race is always going to be an issue when we are talking about the NBA.
Also – if you think “affirmative action” hasn’t been in place for the last 200 years in this country, then you have your head in the sand. You may not like “legislated” affirmative action, and I’m not a huge fan of it either – but at least it’s an attempt to correct an injustice that’s been going on in this country for a long time.
It puts LESS qualified people into prominent positions, due to filling a certain ‘QUOTA’.
Now can anyone see the subtle racism in that statement?
With the 4th pick in the 2009 NBA Draft, the Sacramento Kings select Tyreke Evans, STUD out of Memphis.
by otis29 on Jun 30, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't
see any racism in that statement. It is a fact. Attempting to correct the past injustice by creating a new injustice isn’t the answer. Every time some one screams “racism” we buy it. Sometimes it’s business motivated totally apart from being racist.
That isn’t to justify the NBA’s policy. I’m just saying the intent of this article is to incite in an area that is already a hot button and add more fuel to the mentality that is afflicting this nation…the mentality of entitlement.
"Las instalaciones son brutales!"
by shazzam on Jun 30, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So basically
You are saying a minority hire based on an affirmative action policy is LESS qualified? As phrased, it appears to be a definitive statement.
by otis29 on Jun 30, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now you're putting words in my mouth...
…when one is put in to ‘FILL’ a quota, instead of putting in the MOST qualified, then obviously deduction leads you to believe they are therefore LESS qualified, or a ‘quota filler’. There’s nothing racist about reason and truth here.
If a minority get ‘in’ on their own merit. I fully respect that, endorse them and wish them the best.
It’s when a minority is ‘FAVORED’ due to race and quotas over a more qualified and deserving(based on merit) individual that I take issue with. That’s what Affirmitive action IS and DOES.
by Smills91 on Jun 30, 2009 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boo fucking hoo
Shut up already. Stop being a whiny bitch.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey,
The man’s got a good point. Affirmitive action is 100% Bullshit.
by lrh86 on Jun 30, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop whining
I can’t stand whining. Hey, I’m 100% correct!
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That wasn't whining...
You dumbshit. The man is trying to argue a point and instead of being civil you decided to pull out the “Shut up already. Stop being a whiny bitch.” bullshit. Real Mature, you loser.
by lrh86 on Jun 30, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Define Irony
It’s, you know, what’s ironic.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not an obvious deduction
And the word “quota” is a red herring – and any affirmative action program that has one is breaking the law. An affirmative action program is generally goal oriented, not applied to a specific job or hiring.
Frankly, you are spouting Limbaugh-esque nonsense.
by otis29 on Jun 30, 2009 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I appreciate your answer because I know you
I think you’re giving that jerk too much credit in believing he has a brain.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
I probably need to start hitting my caps lock more.
by otis29 on Jun 30, 2009 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably
But, if you stoop to his level you now have equally shown that you also have no brain. Intelligence is a slippery slope.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn
Intelligence is a slippery slope.
That’s almost sigworthy.
by otis29 on Jun 30, 2009 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally liked your recent sig
Even if your pic emerged victorious in the final analysis.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When a minority is disadvantaged
Unequal inputs are sometimes required to achieve equal outputs. Read about public school teacher tenure rules, the nature of a cycle of poverty, etc. before you come spouting this stuff out please.
Not saying that Affirmative Action is a solution I wholeheartedly support, but it’s certainly better than the status quo.
by bartenpa on Jun 30, 2009 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All affirmitive action is...
Is reverse discrimination. If you are not hiring people based on their qualifications then you are doing minorities a disservice.
by lrh86 on Jun 30, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's a question
say you have 2 kids, one from an upper middle class family, with SAT prep and after taking the test twice, ends up with a 2000. Another from the inner city, no kind of SAT prep, works to support his family, takes the test once, ends up with a 1900. Who do you take?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 30, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah the race debate
Where have you been all this time?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The 2000...
You always take the most qualified. No exceptions. This way there is no discrimination.
by lrh86 on Jun 30, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But is taking kid 2000
Who has had the benefit of test prep, supportive parents, a good school and financial security really not discrimination?
Your take is just hiding behind numbers to protect the status quo.
by bartenpa on Jun 30, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
It’s not discrimination. It’s discrimination to look at anything other than the qualifications.
by lrh86 on Jun 30, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So test scores are a perfect metric of achievement?
You’ve got a narrow view of the world, man.
by bartenpa on Jun 30, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not test scores..
Qualifications, whatever they may be. They could be test scores but usually they are a combination of different things.
by lrh86 on Jun 30, 2009 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK
another question, sports related.
You have two guys who perform at a similar level (younger prospects) one with good form and one with bad form. Let’s say the guy with good form performs 5-10% better than the guy with bad form.
Who do you take?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 30, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you mean to say
that the guy with bad form performs 5-10% better?
Otherwise the answer is obviously to take the better player with better form.
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually
no. You take the guy with bad form and teach him to use good form. He’ll likely end up better than the guy with good form.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 30, 2009 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Problem is
Many employers take the race into account when they determine the “most qualified – no exceptions”. That’s the whole freaking point.
by otis29 on Jun 30, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said
I don’t fully support it. It’s an after the fact measure intended to level the playing field for people who are already semi-adults. The money being spent for affirmative action should be spent in early childhood education and leveling the educational playing field regardless of socio-economic origin early in life, so that patch measures like AA aren’t necessary.
However, you come off ignorant and stupid for calling it reverse discrimination. I can understand wanting to change the system earlier, but you cannot convince me that no effort whatsoever need be taken to ensure that all Americans have equal opportunities.
by bartenpa on Jun 30, 2009 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I 100% agree...
that all the efforts and money need to be spent in early education. But, depriving a white man from a job while handing it to a minority just because of his skin color is just completely wrong.
by lrh86 on Jun 30, 2009 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Almost as completely wrong
as depriving a minority person a job based solely on the basis that they are a minority.
But that would never happen in America, right? I mean, it wouldn’t happen over and over and over again over decades and decades and decades, right?
Does a white person or a minority person clean the glass of the bubble in which you live?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jun 30, 2009 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
But that's not how Affirmative Action works
It doesn’t say ‘Well 12% of the population is black, so we’ll fill 88% of our group with the most qualified people, then fill the remaining spots with random black people.’ Overcoming the tremendous disadvantages that come with being a minority in the United States is a qualification for many things. Affirmative Action serves to identify the most qualified among both the advantaged and the disadvantaged, and give them all an opportunity to succeed. It’s not a perfect system, but it understands that equality and justice are not the same thing and results are the only thing that matters when developing a system to aimed at equal access to education, healthcare, well-paid jobs, etc.
by furious.d on Jul 1, 2009 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said
And this will be my last comment on the subject (and I apologize for helping cause such a huge digression here) – if an affirmative action program works as intended, you really are choosing from the best candidates available for a certain job. Not just the best white male candidates.
The problem for many protected classes is not necessarily that they are unqualified for certain jobs (although there are many issues wound into this, including the role of education in the lives of inner city children, and of course parenting or a lack thereof), it’s having a chance to stand in front of someone and make their case for a job.
I think the Rooney Rule in the NFL is an excellent use of an affirmative action type policy. It doesn’t require that teams hire minority coaching candidates, but it does require that they interview qualified candidates.
by otis29 on Jul 1, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rooney Rule
Great example of how unequal treatment (giving minorities a leg up by requiring teams to interview them) can lead to a more fair result which benefits the entire NFL.
by furious.d on Jul 1, 2009 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Love it or leave it."
Sounds familiar. God forbid someone disagree with the status quo.
by Ziller on Jun 30, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, not always
But often that is the case. If you are qualified and are excluded on the basis of your skin color, is that not discriminatory as well?
"Las instalaciones son brutales!"
by shazzam on Jun 30, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Certainly, it is
And as I stated previously, I don’t really agree with most affirmative action policies, but I understand the reasoning behind the efforts to put them in place.
My problem is the presumption that a minority hire is less qualified. That is the subtle racism that affirmative action is intended to combat. We’ve had affirmative action as standard business practice in this country for 200+ years – as long as it’s assisting white men it generally gets ignored.
by otis29 on Jun 30, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's hard to give proper attention to your posts with all the caps
If you’re going for emphasis, you can always use the italic button (the slanty I) underneath the subject line
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
by JediLeroy on Jun 30, 2009 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this has less to do with race than with visibility
No doubt race is a part of it, but no one really gives a crap about the 25,000 (or so it seems) people drafted out of high school each year in the baseball draft simply because there are so many of them. These are just faceless people. There’s not really a human element to it. You don’t think, “Oh wow, I remember such and such guy, he busted, I wonder what happened to him.”
But meanwhile, there are so fewer NBA players and they’re so much more visible and the busts are more memorable. Korleone Young, Ndudi Ebi, etc. etc.
At the same time, it’s hard to ignore that mainstream America tends to think basketball players are thugs and deadbeats whereas baseball and soccer players are just all-American boys. That has to play a role.
by nbrans on Jun 30, 2009 8:44 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
That combined with the fact that they make less money at the beginning and have fewer people trying to get a piece of their money in lower leagues discourages them from living the “NBA Lifestyle” that they may otherwise feel the need to assume to keep up with other players on the team.
This is how it works in european soccer, and it works there.
by bartenpa on Jun 30, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
silly article ultimately makes a good point
This article, while provocative, is both intellectually vacuous and sophomoric. Rather than looking at the issue from the more logical viewpoint of economics and organizational structure of the relevant entities, the author superimposes race and, as a result, tells us more about his own thinking than about that of the participants and/or fans of the current structures. And while I suspect this fellow thinks himself a fine specimen of "liberal" thinking, he proves himself to be, like many of his brethren, as racial in his thinking as those as he accuses. I find it ironic that those who see themselves as the guardians of civil liberties are often the most likely to see almost every social dynamic through the racial lens.
Yet, despite its obvious logical shortcomings, the article allows us to discuss something that really bothers me and that is the fact that an 18 year adult is not allowed to make a living in his chosen profession EVEN WHEN FULLY QUALIFIED. So, though I may come at it from different perspective than the author, in the end, I agree with at least part of his thesis. For me, it’s about individual freedom and the ability to utilize one’s skills and attributes to the best of one’s ability to earn as much as possible. What could possibly be more American? All the silly nonsense about "education" is the NCAA keeping its monopoly and earning millions and millions off the backs of its "student-athletes." The current system – especially as it relates to college football and basketball – is hypocritical and discriminatory.
by Kusian on Jun 30, 2009 9:05 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Admit it
You just wanted to say intellectually vacuous and sophomoric, didn’t you?
by bartenpa on Jun 30, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where is Kusian?
This was posted at 9:05 this morning. Just about every post I’ve made in this thread was intended to bring him out of hiding. :)
by otis29 on Jun 30, 2009 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought I'd sit back and watch the food fight ;)
Plus, I said what was on my heart. I obviously don’t support affirmative action but that really wasn’t the point of the article. The bottom line for me is that adults ought to be able to earn their living in the profession of the choice should they be qualified for that profession. I dislike the policy that makes an 18 year old unable to earn his living should he be qualified for that particular profession. It’s discriminatory and only done to prop up the fortunes of the NCAA/NBA. It has nothing to do with any young man’s education. And, therefore, it’s a bunch of crap. Not paternalism based on race. Just a toxic mix of greed, hypocrisy, and sanctimonious bullshit.
by Kusian on Jun 30, 2009 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Compromise
Treat the NBA like any other employer. Let the NBA draft kids out of high school, and at that point the team owns the rights to the player. He can still go to college for a year or two, or can come directly to the NBA. Maybe if the player is drafted, the NBA team covers the scholarship costs and pays for an insurance policy that protects both the player and NBA team. The player could attend NBA camps and summer leagus, but once he plays regular season, his college eligibility is over. And let the kid have an agent. He should be allowed to protect his interests and finances.
by PurplePurple on Jun 30, 2009 9:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I like that idea.
If an NBA team wants someone to develop and had the balls to draft him, they should pay for his development in college. Brilliant, pp.
by JETisKing on Jun 30, 2009 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let the natural cycle take effect
If you think that high schoolers ruined the NBA, blame the owners who got too caught up in the potential of completely unproven kids. Remember, though, that plenty of great players never went to college.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on Jun 30, 2009 9:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
after reading the article
and reading a lot of the comments, i understand that people dislike the wait 1 year for NBA and 3 years for the NFL while other sports like GOLF one does not have to wait. But i have to agree, until we see Golf players shooting up strip clubs, throwing their wives out of their houses naked or running into the stands to punch out fans we will never see an age limit in sports other than NFL and the NBA. Also how often can an 18 year old take the pounding of the knees, of the body that most of these NBA players take? And yes for ever Kobe, LeBron and KG there are 3 D.Miles…..When GoLF players have to ice their knees after every pratice and game, then there should be an age limit. And it has nothing to do with they don’t have enough money, simply because if they needed the money in a life or death situation then the NBADL makes decent money. Don’t wait to go to go to college for 1 year….
by shadowchicken on Jun 30, 2009 10:15 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So -
The rule is in place to protect the strip clubs?
I’m out.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jun 30, 2009 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are not 3 Darius Miles for every Kobe.
The sucess rate out of high school is much higher than 50%. I did my master’s thesis on this subject back in 2004. Your argument about the violence is racism in a poor disguise. Most of those crimes were comitted by players that went to college anyway, so it clearly does not help.
by mayfieldcol on Jun 30, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thesus
Do you have that available for us to review? If you’re willing to share it, I’d be interested in reading it.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on Jun 30, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have it on my computer somewhere.
I will try to dig it or the powerpoint up. It was based on surveys in Sacramento and San Francisco (I got my degree in Sport Management at USF.) I actually interned at KHTK, but that is another story.
I was a report on how stong an NBA fan people were and whether they thought there should be an age minimum. I got some interesting data. For example people that had been fans of a team for a longer time rated themselves as a stonger, more intense fans. Older fans were more likely to support an age limit than younger fans.
by mayfieldcol on Jun 30, 2009 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Truth
Ron Artest committed one of the most heinous in-arena acts the NBA has seen. Maybe four years of college instead of two would have “fixed” him?
With the 4th pick in the 2009 NBA Draft, the Sacramento Kings select Tyreke Evans, STUD out of Memphis.
by otis29 on Jun 30, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like that we can Rec the good comments
but can we get a “stupid” button so that we can warn others not to waste their time reading moronic drivel?
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know.
Flagging is not the same. What about a thumbs up/thumbs down?
by mayfieldcol on Jun 30, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have never been in favor of an age limit.
The best players in todays NBA all came out of high school. Some of them had one year of college experience. I think that the NBA really wants to have marketable players coming into the league that played in the NCAA tournament and are household names. I think Peaches actually made a good point about a week ago he advocated no age limit, but if the player attends college he goes for two seasons.
by mayfieldcol on Jun 30, 2009 10:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You want maturity development and better economic decisions?
Leave the players alone and build a farm system for owners!
by ZenBaller on Jun 30, 2009 10:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The NBDL is becoming a farm system.
It will take a few years to work the kinks out of the system. People do not use apprenticeship like they did in the past, but it is much more relevant and useful for vocational and physcial training in my opinion.
by mayfieldcol on Jun 30, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No no..
I mean a farm system to train owners :P
by ZenBaller on Jun 30, 2009 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh! Well good luck with that.
I should read the whole post. Go Kings.
by mayfieldcol on Jun 30, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can’t bitch about the market inequality of the age limit without realizing the draft process is a market inequality. Kills the entire free market analogy right there.
by bignerd on Jun 30, 2009 11:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's the problem with this article.
Several guys drafted early, if they don’t make it to the majors get their education paid for by the team that drafted them. So if you’re a success in baseball, chances are you don’t have a degree, but the fallout option is going back to college at age 24 or whatever (assuming you were drafted in high school).
A bit unfair? Sure, but it’s a different sport. I don’t think the one year of college basketball is killing anyone anyways.
by LantermanC on Jun 30, 2009 1:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Umm
So if a player entered the NBA straight out of high school and didn’t last in the NBA, he wouldn’t be able to go back to college?
False.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on Jun 30, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2nd round picks don't have guaranteed contracts.
Plus, there are only 2 rounds of an NBA draft. There are 60 or 100 (or some insane number) rounds in a baseball draft.
Plus, how else can you get a Duke education with an 840 SAT score?
by LantermanC on Jul 2, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Enjoyed Travis' article
Not sure I’d stop where he did, but I don’t write for AOL Fanhouse either.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 4:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hysterical Context
Though a very well presented article, it is pretty much out of context.
The NBA and NFL as professional sports are unique in their origins, compared to every other sport in America. Football and basketball gained their popularity as college sports. The rest were are all grassroots sports that migrated to college after they had already become popular on a professional level.
Football and basketball became professional sports exploiting the notoriety of college players after their college careers were over. Exploitation of college players was built into the NFL and NBA’s business model at their beginning.
So here we are today with this uneasy alliance between the NFL and NBA with the NCAA. Football and basketball are the the economic engines that drive the NCAA. The NCAA wants to keep the status-quo. The NFL and NBA want to continue to use the NCAA to develop their raw material.
Caught in the middle. Every young man – black or white – with talent who wants to earn a living doing what he does, as soon as he can.
My own opinion, The NCAA needs to stop the charade. Of all the parties they are the most guilty. They make millions to billions of dollars of these kids. Either they should compensate them outright or let the boosters pay them. And I’m not buying into they are getting a free education. The demands of college level athletics, seriously impairs the quality and level of education that most student athletes are getting.
by Mystic on Jun 30, 2009 4:29 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
You've touched on excellent points Mystic
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff
I see the status-quo ending with the globalization of the game. As the game increases in popularity worldwide, the salaries in Europe will become more competitive with the NBA, and players won’t be quite as worried about “ruining their draft stock” playing in Europe. The league will have to cut the bullshit once their monopoly becomes threatened.
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Jeremy Tyler will be hurt by playing 2 years in Europe
It will help him a lot more than it did Brandon Jennings for 2 reasons.
One, Tyler’s team can afford to give him those minutes because he’s the best player on that team. Two, if he develops, it may give the poorer club teams around Europe a fighting chance where the richest teams are the one’s who always win because they have, wait for it, the most money.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Wow, imagine the irony if Jeremy Tyler started a trend?
And I could actually see it. The lesson to be learned from Jennings might be that it takes more than one year to get acclimated to the Euro-style ball. This will be reinforced if Tyler becomes successful, and if that is the case, then more players may choose to drop out of High School to play ball so as to work on their game in Europe to improve their draft stock. All as a result of the NBA taking it upon themselves to force players to “stay in school”.
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wuzn't just Jennings Charlie
Josh Childress didn’t exactly blow the world up playing at Olympiacos either.
Personally, and I may be the only one, but I’m hoping the NBA passes that 2 year age requirement so more kids could consider Jeremy Tyler’s path. I think one thing that AAU kids is a reality check. Brandon Jennings, even with all the money he has already made (which is very considerable), got that. Whether or not it translates to the NBA or not I do not know, but I know he’s far better off than he would have been had he passed the SAT to get into ’Zona.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The one thing AAU kids need is a reality check
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 30, 2009 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Globalization
… will end the NCAA’s status quo.
In the long run it really isn’t going to matter to the NBA if kid gets his 1 to 4 years of experience at Division I or in a Euro league. The NCAA advantage for the NBA, right now is the notoriety a kid gains in college and in the tournament . The Euro leagues will probably drive up the rookie salary scale to get them to come to the NBA.
Rubio and Jennings have shown that the internet can overcome that barrier. Their names were branded and marketed as effectively as any of the prospects that came out of college this year.
by Mystic on Jun 30, 2009 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's basically what I meant
I don’t think the Euro leagues will ever actually challenge the NBA – the NBA will just be forced to make some changes (such as the 1-year rule) to prevent players from playing in Europe. And yeah, I could definitely see the Euro leagues cutting into the NCAA profits.
by Charlieb on Jun 30, 2009 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs


















