A Tale of Two Teams: The Lakers and Kings Since 1986
by Tom Ziller on Jul 31, 2009 10:59 AM PDT
in Commentary
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PrintIt has never been this bad.
The Lakers have dominated the Kings in the standings during the Sacramento era. In the 24 seasons the Kings have spent in California, the Lakers have finished with a better record 21 times. It's completely improbable, highly unfair and entirely depressing. (Never mind that one of those three Advantage: Kings seasons ended with ... well ... let's not get into it.)
The Lakers have dominated the Kings for a quarter of a century, but it has never been this bad. The gulf is so wide is might as well be an ocean. The Pacific Ocean. The Lakers are L.A. and we're Kamchatka. It's painful. Take a look after the jump.
Last season, the Lakers won 48 more games than the Kings. The next worst disparity between the teams during the Sacramento era: 1989-90, when the Lakers won 63 games and the Kings won just 23 -- a 40-game difference. That is a terrible, terrible disparity ... and this season was about 20% worse.
There's no real reason to point this out, other than to note how far this team has to go. We talk about being .500 in 2012, or contending in 2014. The pay-off will be sweet. But bloody hell that's going to be a long march! Hope you brought your walking shoes.
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My walking shoes are obsolete.
Sorry for all you long term optimists… But I get tired of hearing..“Just wait…” Or.. “in a few years…” If the kings continue the way we have been Sacramento can say bye bye Kings. People don’t want to support that big trade (bye bye K$ and Shock) or pick up that big free agent… But sometimes we’ve just got to bite the bullet and make the big move. Sometimes I feel us fans get too comfortable and over confident with our roster. I am neither. We need a big time name and a big time player, now, or we’ll be sucking L.A.‘s exhaust for the next 25 years (if Sac still has a team.) And Personally, I’d prefer L.A. to be doused in our sludge for once.
You're blaming the wrong people.
People don’t want to support that big trade (bye bye K$ and Shock) or pick up that big free agent… But sometimes we’ve just got to bite the bullet and make the big move.
It’s not like the Kings organization polls the fans to find out what we want them to do. And even if they did, it would be highly unlikely that they would do it.
A large contingent of people wanted to draft Ricky Rubio, but listening to Jerry Reynolds on KHTK, that was never seriously considered.
So complain about Petrie, or the coaching staff, or the Maloofs, or just bad breaks, but telling us as fans we need to bite the bullet is ridiculous.
The draft lottery has reinforced my belief that there are not enough bad words in the English language.
by LeaguePassAddict on Jul 31, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
So does this mean you'll be making the commute to use your newly purchased season tickets?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Season tickets?
I’m lucky to see one live game a year.
But Summer League was awesome.
The draft lottery has reinforced my belief that there are not enough bad words in the English language.
by LeaguePassAddict on Jul 31, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions
It was a joke madam
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
It's a given
We can’t control what the organization does, but a lot of fans get defensive or scared when somebody brings up the idea of placing someone such as K$ or Shock on the blocks…
Just an observation.
That's because the idea's that have come about from doing that are profoundly stupid
I don’t think most Kings fans would be opposed to trading Jesus if the Kings get a franchise superstar back. (Key word: Most)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Is Jesus a restricted or unrestricted free agent this year?
Dude’s like 6’7" in sandals
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Jul 31, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Yeah but can he make the same pivot with sandals or does he have to play barefoot?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Jesus and Mohammed
For Buddha, Moses, Krishna, and the opportunity to exchange second round picks.
I’m in.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 31, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'll take Vishnu
and if we allowed female deities, Kali — seriously, all those hands, no defense could stop them.
Moving at the speed of molasses.
The concept of elevation has been superseded
Levitation is where it’s at.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 31, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
oh great, new jerseys
from Sacramento Kings to Sacramento Deities. Guess that means no move to Las Vegas.
by betweentheeyes on Jul 31, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I would take
Jesus Shuttlesworth, I mean, dude’s got game…
Don't hate, I'm a realist!
So?
The draft lottery has reinforced my belief that there are not enough bad words in the English language.
by LeaguePassAddict on Jul 31, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for the canyon-sized paper cut, TZ
Now please pass the lemon juice.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
It's puff puff pass 214
But, I figured you would know that.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I thought ...
They were called Lemon drops…did Oakland just invent a newer, tastier favor!?
I prefer to comparison against the other LA team
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
That's even more depressing when you think about it
The Clippers/Braves have been one of the criminally awful teams for a long time. And the Kings have only been marginally better despite the difference in ownership. That’s saying something.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Someone please do it!
Clippers and Kings comparison.
Sactown Royalty: 4,080 Fat Sean May jokes and counting...
Hard to believe that English is my first language based on ^ post
wow
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Jul 31, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions
We were unfortunately very unlucky with maxing out a player
than having him subsequently blow out his ACL and never being that player again thus ruining our future.
There now I've met the 75 word count. -pookeyguru
Actually it was not an ACL injury
It was cartilage tear requiring microfracture surgery.
But, yeah.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 31, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
But imagine how much things will change
when Kobe retires. He’s 30 now and kind of an old thirty at that due to his volume of minutes since the age of 19.
Just about when the Lakers lose him, I think the Kings will be poised to relinquish the power.
Peja-vu!
I like your wishful thinking
Cheers Here’s to Kobe retiring (from his youth) soon. That 31 is really going to catch him off guard!
Don't hate, I'm a realist!
What?
Relinquish means to give up.
So, um, yeah.
The draft lottery has reinforced my belief that there are not enough bad words in the English language.
by LeaguePassAddict on Jul 31, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I thinks he's trying to say
That we’ll have them right where they want us.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 31, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh come on people!
Just because they’re wearing purple and gold (and I don’t mean our hideous 07-08 alternates) doesn’t mean they will be forever great.
Laker tank scenarios:
1. Kobe and Pao Gasol collide into one another on a collaborative alley-oop dunk and are irreparably concussed.
2. Ron Artest sprewells Phil Jackson’s neck
3. Andrew Bynum chases his long-time dream of professional horse jockeying.
But seriously, all it takes is one or two injuries/key player retirements for them to go into rebuilding mode themselves. We know that first hand.
And please don’t forget that Phil Jackson is already talking about coaching home games only. Retirement is eminent.
Peja-vu!
I vote for #2
BTW, retirement is imminent.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Aug 1, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions
The bright side
At least our fanbase isn’t full of fairweather d-bags
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on Jul 31, 2009 1:18 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
But some of us our d-bags
well, one of us is. I won’t name any names but it rhymes with ShmookeyJewroo
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Jul 31, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I guess so.
All of a sudden there sure were a lot of Warrior fans when the Kings started tanking.
Sactown Royalty: 4,080 Fat Sean May jokes and counting...
there are some lines you just cannot cross
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
I know this will piss people off
But I’d rather be a Lakers fan than a Warriors fan. At least some Laker fans are honest.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Exactly...but now those Warrior fans are in limbo since Baron left.
Once bandwagon fans leave the Kings they’re not welcome back. Justice is served.
Sactown Royalty: 4,080 Fat Sean May jokes and counting...
The Artest trade was not so good
in hindsight. It looks like it just delayed the inevitable downward trend we were on and delayed our rebuilding for a couple seasons.
Make sure you specify that you're talking about trading FOR Artest
For a second I was thinking “He’s way off, the Artest trade got us Greene and Casspi”
www.mancancook.net
i agree with sammy
i just cannot understand why we havn’t attempted to pry amare away from the suns by offering k$ & shock, i understand why last year because we didn’t want amare to leave us in 2010 but the guy has said he wants a contract extension so why not do the trade with an agreement on an extension? i love shock but he will never be amare just joe smith more likely
by allbenji's on Jul 31, 2009 2:29 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
How many titles have the Sun won with Amare
and Nash and many other good players?
Now explain to me how good we would be with Amare and Tyreke and not a whole lot else. Trading Kevin and JT for Amare would be a lateral move imo with the downside that Amare’s contract is up much sooner than our two players. Increasing the likelihood of losing him to free agency.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Jul 31, 2009 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
And
Amare has been injury-prone, is not considered a good team player, is hugely expensive, and will probably not want to stay in Sacramento since we are not getting anywhere near a title anytime soon with or without Amare.
Patience people! Follow the Portland model. Unload bad contracts and bad personalities, and rebuild through the draft and through trades with young, talented, inexpensive character guys.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 31, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Not to mention...
Amare’s also got knee problems like our favorite kings of the past…….do we really want to max out another dud who can blow out his knee!? REALLLY??
well your title is particularly appropriate for the Dickensian connotation
It was the best of times (championship) it was the worst of times (era record for losses and the leagues’ cellar status). Of course, that leads us Kings fans to:
Great Expectations.
I picked the wrong day to stop drinking . . .
Thanks for the uplifting post.
Although for some reason I don’t care as much that the Lakers are winning. It bothered me more when the 2 teams were competitive (standings) with each other.
Ba-da
Looks like I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on Jul 31, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Have you ever spent the night in a Turkish prison?
That should be a mandatory question when interviewing potential draft picks.
Ba-da
D E P R E S S I N G P O S T
Here’s your answer. We have to both draft great players and create a winning tradition to attract great players (a la SA). All easy to propose, VERY tough to accomplish. We can’t compete with the top markets with $$$$$$$$$$$
Top TV Markets
1. New York, NY
2. Los Angeles, CA
3. Chicago, IL
4. Philadelphia, PA
5. San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose, CA
6. Dallas-Fort Worth, TX
7. Boston, MA (Manchester, NH)
8. Washington, DC (Hagerstown, MD)
9. Atlanta, GA
10. Houston, TX
20. Sacramento-Stockton-Modesto, CA
Cities with Most Corporate Headquarters
1. New York 239
2. Chicago 109
3. San Francisco 91
4. Los Angeles 85
5. Dallas 76
6. Philadelphia 70
7. Washington 66
7. Boston (Tie) 66
9. Atlanta 53
10. Minneapolis
by kingz2012champz on Jul 31, 2009 6:25 PM PDT reply actions
absolutely
the small markets do operate at a disadvantage. The entertainment industry is fueled by coin. It is a bit of an exaggeration, but the small market teams have to work twice as hard to be half as good.
But the other part of the perspective is that small market teams can succeed. The NBA is the best big league example of that – the Spurs, the Jazz, the Blazers, the RIP Sonics have demonstrated winning traditions. Are they attractive to big time superstars? Well, they attract and keep a particular type of superstar – Tim Duncan is so unusual in so many ways (his mild mannered demeanor is refreshing to some but labelled boring by others). But players and teams and fame and reputation are so often dollar equated that once superlative talent is established the player or coach or GM is oft compelled to “prove him/herself on a bigger brighter stage.”
It makes the challenges greater and the rewards tastier. Viva la difference.
by betweentheeyes on Aug 1, 2009 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Seattle is not a small market
Sorry.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
14th on the big TV list (2 behind Tampa, one in front of Minny)
not on corporate list as I could only find the top 10. It is unfortunate the NBA is no longer there, much like there is no NFL franchise in big bustling Los Angeles.
by betweentheeyes on Aug 2, 2009 12:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Seattle has 2 major corporations
And who knows how many mid level one’s too. And, there is probably 4 or 5 somewhere between the major one’s and the mid level size one’s as well.
Seattle is a corporate town. Sacramento is a government town.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
More than 2 major corporations
But, Boeing & Microsoft tend to overshadow everyone else. Especially in the Times coverage of the Business areas.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Hey, Sacramento has
Raley’s/Bel Air and Blue Diamond Almonds, so there.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Aug 2, 2009 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
it may be a failing business
but the state of California is big BIG business
by betweentheeyes on Aug 3, 2009 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions
How could I ever overlook Blue Diamond Almonds!
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
What I see from the graph
The patterns of both of these teams are a bit like the economy. Succes has its peaks and its droughts. The difference between the 2 teams though is that the succes for the Lakers lasted longer and their bad years come and go very quickly.
For the Kings, succes only encompassed about 5-6 years and it took a while to get there. From the graph you can see that the team had been slowly improving until it got to the “golden years.”
I think this is a perfect example of the difference between small market teams and big market teams. I feel like if we were to compare the succes of all small market teams against big markets during an specific period of time we would find similar results. This is also a great illustration of what is to come for the Kings and how long is going to take to get back to the top of the league
The future begins now...
Stop analyzing the Kings in an economist fashion you bastard
No really, stop.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I can't help it
It just makes too much sense.
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Aug 1, 2009 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
This isn't MLB ed
Part of the problem as I see it is that the Lakers are consistently run better than the Bulls or Knicks are. That’s why the end up with players like Kobe Bryant or Shaquille O’Neal even as they make the playoffs almost every season.
Say what you want about the Pau Gasol trade, but part of the problem is that Gasol was traded tot he Lakers. Gasol IS NOT a franchise player, in many respects he’s actually overpaid if he played for the Bulls (there’s no great indication the Bulls were willing to trade for him other than speculation), and the Lakers did have pieces they were willing to give up that made the trade worthwhile for the Grizzlies to do (Brown’s expiring contract, Marc Gasol’s rights among other things) which was a big salary cap dump for a player that wasn’t very well received in Memphis any longer, and frankly, had quit on them. They were stuck.
The problem of course is that the Lakers are so routinely hated by pretty much everyone who isn’t a Lakers fan which then skews everything else.
The Grizzlies have inept management starting with Michael Heisley. But, in of itself, the trade of Gasol is not proof of that.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
The Lakers ARE consistently run better than the Bulls and Knicks
I can agree with that. I just think that all things equal (sorry, another Econ term) the graph comparison we see above would also apply to the differences between small and big market teams. Of course, all things equal does not apply to this league,especially when Isiah Thomas is (was) running the Knicks (just an example) but I would be very interested in seeing such a graph where we compare something like the success of the Bulls, Knicks, Lakers, and Celtics vs. Kings, Bucks, Blazers, and Hornets.
Making a generalization is tough to do but the Econ nerd in me came out as soon as I saw that graph. I mean, just by looking at it there’s some interesting stuff you can get out of it. It’s like looking at statistics where you can’t get the whole picture but they do have some validity. As for the graph: The Lakers’ line has pronunced ups and downs. They were cconsistently good in the 80s and then had only about 3 down years (91-94). Then again, they had consistently good years until the championship years, then they had a couple down years and got back up again. Turn arounds were much faster, not a lot of building but sudden improvement.
The Kings? They had consistently bad years up until the C-Webb and Vlade teams when we peaked and now we are back to being bad. I think more or less that is the pattern a lot of small market teams follow; they are consistently bad to decent but they can all build a good team to compete and have a good run for a number of years, then it’s back to bad consistency. Again, I got nothing to prove this so feel free dismiss all the crap I just wrote.
I do believe there is something to this league being cyclical (and that the cycles are different for teams) but I also understand that there are other factors that affect teams’ success, such as management, injuries, or just plain luck.
The future begins now...
The Lakers have also gotten incredibly lucky with some lopsided trades/luck
Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Name a single player involved in that trade with Milwaukee. (You can’t?) Know how the Lakers got Magic? The New Orleans Jazz signed Gail Goodrich to a Free Agent contract which entitled the Lakers compensation. It just so happened the Jazz were slated to get the #1 pick in 1979. Whoops. (This happened a couple years later when the Cavs signed Norm Nixon in the 1981 off-season, and then ended up giving their pick to the Lakers which became James Worthy.)
The Lakers have been incredibly lucky over the years, but they’ve also been in a league full of desperate dumb ownership. That is no longer the case.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
well first it was David Meyers (brother to famous bball sister, Brian Winters, Elmore Smith and Jr. Bridgeman
but I know that because it was the ultimate example of trading good to very good role players – four of them, almost a starting five – for the best talent in the game – the top superstar. Like trading Michael Jordan after 4 seasons (and add that Lew Alcindor had won an NBA title for Milwaukee with a past prime Big “O” and Bobby Dandridge.
Anyhoo, you make your own luck. But having the big bucks and bright lights to attract those stars is huge advantage.
by betweentheeyes on Aug 1, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Bte that trade happened in 1975
LA was not the big market it is today. LA never won a title with Jabbar solely in the 70’s either. (The irony is that the only title Jabbar won in the 70’s was with Robertson in Milwaukee.)
But, that’s not greatly important to me. The point is that the Lakers have gotten a lot of talent through luck over the years. They still have out shrewded people as well, but that’s not to say they haven’t had their share of luck, too.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I might add
That trade happened 4 1/2 years before I was even born.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
and I was a high school graduate
like I said, I remember the trade. Now ask me a short term memory question…
Los Angeles was the 10th most populated city in the world in 1975 (NYC was 3rd the only US city with more)
As you know from your well written NBA draft history articles, the 100 mile “local boy” restriction was lifted long ago in large part for West Coast expansion. The glamor of Hollywood helped bring the Lakers to the dry savannahs of southern Cali. along with Elgin, Jerry and then Wilt. Elgin retires, then Jerry and Wilt and boom! Kareem is on the scene. It was more than luck.
by betweentheeyes on Aug 2, 2009 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions
It was more than luck in the 60's
It was more than luck in the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and now. They’ve gotten lucky in some respects, but they’ve also done incredibly shrewd moves that most people disagreed with at the time heavily.
So, yeah, we agree to agree.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I feel compelled to add
That while I am unfamiliar with the movie, there looks to be some pretty terrible acting going on in that scene.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Aug 2, 2009 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Familiarize yourself with Tom Mix and others
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Damn, I thought that looked like early John Wayne
Evidently I am culturally illiterate when it comes to early B westerns.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Aug 3, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
The last time I saw a spur that close to another man's genitals,
Robert Horry was still playing for San Antonio.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Aug 2, 2009 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Ha!
Can’t let that one pass without a Rec.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Aug 3, 2009 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions
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