Judging Geoff
It has often been said that hindsight is 50-50. I’m not sure that quote means anything, but in any case, we have the luxury of looking back on the past achievements of others (or ourselves) and pronouncing judgement on their successes and failures. This is not the first post that has attempted to assess the accomplishments of the venerated Kings President of Basketball Operations---all hail Geoff Petrie.
It would be easy enough to criticize President Geoff based on the fact that the Kings just finished with the worst record in the NBA and the worst in franchise history. Somewhere along the way, something went terribly wrong. But what and when? How did a two-time Executive of the Year oversee such an epic decline from two consecutive seasons averaging 60 wins to a 17-65 season, all in the span of six years? What might we learn "moving forward"?
First, let me say that I am not offering any new information in this post. I am simply organizing and analyzing existing information in a way that seems logical to me. In so doing, I may end up stating what is already obvious, or I may badly misinterpret the data. My goal is to start an interesting discussion and maybe to learn something along the way, not to claim knowledge that others lack. As to whether I am successful, you are free to judge me just as I presume to judge our President of Basketball Operations.
In assessing the performance of Geoff Petrie (or any other GM), one can look at his body of work and break all of his decisions down into the following categories:
· Draft picks
· Trades
· Free agent signings
· Contracts for existing Kings players
· Staff decisions
· Player releases
The first five categories clearly can involve major, team-altering decisions, and I will attempt to examine them one at a time. The last category, which consists of waiving/releasing players and renouncing claims, is rarely consequential. The lone exception that I am aware of is when the Kings renounced any claim on Gerald Wallace, which in hindsight was probably a major mistake. It should be noted that at the time, the Kings had a logjam at small forward, and they did G-Dub a favor by cutting him loose. But still…
Incidentally, with the exception of draft history, I am going to limit myself to decisions and transactions dating from the beginning of the Adelman/Webber/Divac years, mainly because I was not paying the least bit of attention to the team before that. Also, my information on Petrie transactions comes primarily from HoopsHype, so I hope Pookey will forgive me for that.
Draft Picks
I do not need to say much about this category because so much has already been said. I do think it is fair to say that the consensus among StR readers (excluding badly-informed newbies) is that Geoff Petrie’s draft record is somewhere between good and excellent. The standard I like to use is "If a past draft were held today with perfect hindsight, where would the Kings pick be chosen." The benchmark is NOT "What good players did we miss," because every team in the league is a failure when held to that standard. So using my preferred approach, all but three of the Kings first-round picks would probably go as high or higher (i.e., earlier) than they were actually chosen.
In my opinion, the biggest successes are Kevin Martin (2004), Hedo Turkoglu (2000), and Gerald Wallace (2001), all of whom were late first-round picks that would be among the first ones chosen if the same draft were held today with perfect hindsight. In addition, Brian Grant (1994), Corliss Williamson (1995), Peja Stojakovic (1996), Jason Williams (1998), and Francisco Garcia (2005) were all solid picks that would go roughly where they were picked and possibly slightly higher. I put Spencer Hawes, Jason Thompson, Tyreke Evans, and Omri Casspi in the too-early-to-tell category, but with extremely good early indications from Shock and Hawes. The only busts were Tariq Abdul-Wahad (1997), Dan Dickau (2002), and Quincy Douby (2006). The Dickau pick proved inconsequential because the Kings sent him to Atlanta in a draft day trade that was ultimately used to offset the first-round pick owed to the Pistons in the Jon Barry for Mateen Cleaves deal (I believe).
With the exceptions of Lawrence Funderburke and Anthony Johnson, Petrie has not had much luck in the second round. But for the most part, that is because there were no good players left (I’m excluding undrafted players) when the Kings made their selection. The only notable exception is Manu Ginobili in 1999, but the entire league whiffed on that one, as they did with various undrafted players over the years who went on to successful careers. So Petrie cannot really be faulted for his limited success in the second round.
One would be hard-pressed to find a superior draft record to Petrie’s among active executives. Pritchard (POR) and Presti (OKC) are often cited as successes, but neither of them has been at it for nearly as long as Petrie, and both of them have benefited from extremely fortuitous lottery positioning.
The conclusion here is that the draft is a strong point for Petrie. The decline of the Kings is clearly not due to his performance in that area.
Trades
Looking back over past trades, it is reasonable to subdivide them into two major categories: talent acquisition trades and salary dumps. Admittedly, some trades involve elements of both, but most can pretty clearly be shown to be one or the other.
With this distinction in mind, I conclude that 6 of the last 9 (and 9 of the last 15) Kings trades belong in the salary dump category. Several of these moves were total head-scratchers for anyone lacking a good understanding of NBA salary cap/luxury tax minutiae. The most notable Petrie trades in this category are as follows:
· John Salmons and Brad Miller to the Chicago Bulls for Drew Gooden, Andres Nocioni, Cedric Simmons and Michael Ruffin
· Mike Bibby to Atlanta for Anthony Johnson, Tyronn Lue, Shelden Williams, Lorenzen Wright, and a second-round pick (who later became Patrick Ewing Jr.)
· Chris Webber, Michael Bradley and Matt Barnes to the Philadelphia 76ers for Kenny Thomas (Woof!), Corliss Williamson and Brian Skinner
· Doug Christie to the Orlando Magic for Cuttino Mobley and Michael Bradley
· Keon Clark and two future second-round picks to the Utah Jazz for a future second-round draft pick
· Jon Barry and a future first-round pick to the Detroit Pistons for Mateen Cleaves
Petrie cannot be given high marks for these deals, but he was dealing from a position of weakness in every case. Could he have gotten superior talent back in return for the big name players sent packing? Maybe. But his goal and his mandate were clearly to rid the organization of burdensome salaries. And no transaction exemplifies that better than the trade to unload the budget-crushing wreckage that C-Webb had become. Can you say albatross? ("It’s a bird, isn’t it? Course you don’t get f***ing wafers with it..")
Now let’s return to talent-based trades, which have been few and far between in recent years. The most notable trades in this category are as follows:
· The draft rights to Jeff Pendergraph to the Portland Trail Blazers for Sergio Rodriguez, the draft rights to Jon Brockman and cash
· Ron Artest, Sean Singletary, and Patrick Ewing Jr. to the Houston Rockets for Bobby Jackson, Donté Greene, and a future first-round pick (who later became Omri Casspi)
· Peja Stojakovic to the Indiana Pacers for Ron Artest
· Bobby Jackson and Greg Ostertag to the Memphis Grizzlies for Bonzi Wells (this trade did involve an element of salary dumping)
Scot Pollard to the Indiana Pacers and Hedo Turkoglu to the San Antonio Spurs for Brad Miller from the Indiana Pacers
· Second-round draft picks in 2003 and 2005 for the draft rights to Darius Songaila
· Jason Williams and Nick Anderson to the Memphis Grizzlies for Mike Bibby and Brent Price
· Corliss Williamson to the Toronto Raptors for Doug Christie
· Tariq Abdul-Wahad and a future first-round pick to the Orlando Magic for Nick Anderson
· Mitch Richmond, Otis Thorpe, and a future first-round pick to the Washington Wizards for Chris Webber
The conclusion from reading this list seems to me to be that Geoff Petrie has had very good success on talent-based trades. The first Webber trade is generally considered to be the best one Petrie ever made. But the J-Will for Bibby trade and the Corliss for Christie trade also rank very highly. The only real bust in this list is the Tariq Abdul-Wahad and a first-round pick for Nick Anderson trade, clearly the worst one Petrie ever made, mainly because the Kings gave up a first-round pick for an overpaid, shot-happy, out-of-shape, ex-impact player way past his prime.
The only other comment to be made here (and one which bears repeating) is that the Kings have barely made any talent-based trades in the past 3½ years. Apart from the recent draft day deal for Sergio Rodriquez (which may yet prove inconsequential), the only significant talent-based transaction since the Peja for Ron-Ron trade was the second Artest trade that brought in B-Jax, Donté, and the first round pick that became Omri Casspi. (BTW, I still prefer "The Playa from Judea." But I digress.) Either Petrie has lost his touch on talent-based trades, or the Kings have had no expendable players that anyone has wanted---probably the latter.
In conclusion, salary dump trades have been necessary if totally unsatisfying, while Petrie’s record on talent-based trades remains strong, even if it has become scant in recent years. So let’s move on.
Free Agent Signings
Now we start to get into shakier ground in terms of Petrie’s performance. But let’s break this down and see if we learn anything.
Generally, free agent signings fall into either of two categories: rookie free agents and veteran free agents. The Kings have had no significant rookie free agent signings of note (unless you want to count Bobby Brown), so I will spend no further time on that. The real issue of interest here is veteran free agent signings, of which the most consequential have been as follows:
· John Salmons
· Shareef Abdur-Rahim
· Anthony Peeler
· Jim Jackson
· Keon Clark
· Bobby Jackson
· Tony Delk
· Scot Pollard
· Vlade Divac
· Vernon Maxwell
· Jon Barry
Here again, the record is not bad at all. The only two real disappointments of note were Mikki Moore and Shareef Abdur-Rahim. (Recall that the original acquisition of Beno was a solid pick-up for the Kings.) Mikki really never lived up to Petrie’s expectations (whatever those might have been), and Shareef was a high-mileage acquisition that had already been rejected by the Nets team physicians. But other than that the above list looks pretty impressive. Vlade was Petrie’s finest free agency achievement, while B-Jax, Jim Jackson, Scot Pollard, and Jon Barry also rate very highly.
The flipside of the argument is that none of these acquisitions occurred during the six-year downfall period noted above. So let’s look at all of the veteran free agent transactions during that period:
· Beno Udrih
· Mikki Moore
· John Salmons
· Shareef Abdur-Rahim
· Greg Ostertag
· Rodney Buford
· Anthony Peeler
Here we see the beginnings of an unsettling pattern emerging. John Salmons proved to be a somewhat inspired choice, if ultimately disappointing, while Dahntay Jones and Eddie House went on to be solid role players for playoff teams (fat lot of good that did us). But other than that, this list looks pretty unimpressive. So while Petrie’s overall free agency grade is high, his recent performance shows a major drop-off from the glory years. The only explanation I might offer in his defense is similar to that for the salary dump trades. Financially, the Kings has been operating from a position of financial weakness during that period. They have been unable to make offers to the bigger name players, and have therefore had to settle with second and third tier free agents. Either the pickings have been slim, or Petrie appears to have lost a step. Most likely both.
Contracts for Existing Kings Players
This category can generally broken down into three groups: rookie contracts, exercising of options, and new/extended contracts. The first two options are typically no-brainers; there’s rarely any question about whether or not to do it. But new/extended contracts are another matter altogether. So lets looks at the major contracts that the Kings have handed out to their veteran players:
· Signed Francisco Garcia to a contract extension
· Signed Beno Udrih to a contract extension
· Signed Kevin Martin to a contract extension
· Offered five-year contract to Bonzi Wells
· Re-signed Darius Songaila
· Signed Mike Bibby to a seven-year contract
· Re-signed Chris Webber to a seven-year contract
· Re-signed Doug Christie to a four-year contract
· Re-signed Predrag Stojakovic to a multi-year contract extension
· Re-signed Scot Pollard to a multi-year contract
· Re-signed Corliss Williamson
· Re-signed Lawrence Funderburke
· Re-signed Jon Barry and Scot Pollard to multi-year contracts
· Re-signed Corliss Williamson
Now we’re getting warm. Four of the last seven transactions on this list (Webber, Bibby, Wells, Udrih) proved to be downright onerous. And the really scary part is that Bonzi was dumb enough to turn down a fat 5-year contract for around $7M per year. Had he accepted, he would still have two years left, and the Kings would likely be in even worse financial shape than they currently are. (For those of you who missed it, Bonzi was out of the league last season and his career is apparently done.)
One thing we can say is that the Kings clearly got in over their heads. They bet the farm in the glory years in the hopes of winning it all, and then they tried to patch back together a winning squad when they should have been undertaking a true rebuilding project---and the financial unwinding is still in progress (sort of like the US economy in that respect). Sacramento will never have the financial resources of a New York or LA. The Kings gambled and lost, and a 17-win season is largely the result. But can we learn anything from this financial debacle?
In light of past experience, the Beno deal just seems unconscionable. The guy played decent (on offense only) for most of one season after being in Greg Popovich’s doghouse for the better part of three years;, and Petrie throws a full MLE at him. Similarly, Bonzi---the fitness-challenged chronic malcontent---lights it up in a losing playoff effort after a relatively solid season, and GP bets the MLE house on him too.
The Bibby and Webber contracts are a little harder to criticize. In some ways, the Maloofs boxed themselves in on the Webber deal with their Stay-With-Us-We’ll-Even-Mow-Your-Lawn sales pitch---they almost HAD to give Webber a max contract. And after one season, it looked like a pretty good investment. One year later, it officially became the worst contract in the history of the franchise---and we’re still paying for it. Bibby was similarly overpaid, especially for a guy whose most notable defensive attribute was a chronic case of whiplash from guys blowing by him. In hindsight, the Kings probably should have unloaded Bibby a season or two earlier when his value was higher. Similarly for Peja, Miller and others, but the Kings resisted the blow-it-up full-rebuild as long as they could, and longer than they should have.
Staff Decisions
Much has been said on this subject and I don’t have a lot to add. Adelman proved to be a solid coach, and he was followed by three busts. How much of that is Petrie’s doing is up for debate. But the consensus is that Westphal is Petrie’s call. So I’m cautiously optimistic. One thing we can all agree on is that coaching stability is an advantage, assuming you have a coach worth keeping. The revolving door coaching policy had done nothing to help the current team form an identity or develop a winning culture.
Conclusions
Here is what I conclude from looking at the historical evidence:
1. Petrie’s draft record speaks for itself. Let’s hope he keeps it up.
2. When Petrie trades for talent, the results are usually positive.
3. When Petrie trades to unload salaries, the results are underwhelming. But that’s to be expected when dealing from a position of weakness.
4. Petrie’s free agent acquisitions seem to be correlated to the Kings financial position. If they have money to spend, he does well. If they don’t, he doesn’t. But he may be losing a step anyway.
5. Petrie should stop throwing large contracts at guys with high mileage, non-existent defensive skills, and/or a history of attitude, performance, or injury problems. I would conclude from this that a player like Trevor Ariza, for example, is too risky due to his high price tag, unproven track record, and history of injuries. (Regarding substandard defense, exceptions may be made for young players who are likely to put up 40 points on any given night. Go Speed Racer go.)
6. No more max contracts, unless the Kings somehow draft Lebron II. C-Webb had a history of leg injuries and a fair amount of mileage. The Kings bet the house and lost.
7. Coaching stability matters. Let’s hope it’s back in SacTown.
All of this suggests to me that the Kings (and their fans) should be patient. Nothing is assured, but the Kings should husband their resources to ensure that they can pay their young players when their paydays come. Younger players that are still developing are a risk, but they can also be a bargain. The Trailblazers model is instructive, in my opinion, notwithstanding the recent Hedo debacle. The Blazers worked through all their bad contracts and built up a young talent base through the draft and through shrewd transactions. They are now loaded with bargain talent with no financial albatrosses.
Conclusion: Keep unloading the bad contracts. Continue to rely on the draft. Develop the young talent. Skip the expensive big-name free agents. Maintain coaching stability. Better days will follow.
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
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Excellent FanPost
Rec’d – lots of good information here.
I would add one thing, and it’s probably an offshoot of my status as a Maloof fanboi. There has been a lot of debate over the last few years regarding the Maloof’s influence on Petrie’s decision making process, most notably on the coaching front. We have a tendency to move some of the “mistakes” into the Maloof side of the ledger, most notably on the Adelman departure and the Musselman hire.
In my opinion, all of these decisions are Petrie’s to bear, regardless of the Maloof’s involvement. Geoff Petrie is the General Manager of this team, and as such it is his responsibility to sell ownership on his vision. Geoff needs to convince the Maloof’s that their money is being spent properly, and make sure they are aware when their preferred course of action is steering the ship towards disaster.
So in my mind, Geoff deserves full ownership of this 17 win team. I do think he is still the right guy for the job, but there should be no genuflecting – GP has made mistakes (as you’ve noted above) and should take his prior failures into account when making future decisions.
StR noobs: More oxygen, less THC please.
by otis29 on Jul 8, 2009 1:13 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I totally agree
Not that Petrie himself has tried to pass the buck, I can’t imagine him doing that. But enough other people have tried to do it for him. The Musselman hire seems like a good example, assuming I understand it correctly. Petrie wanted a more experienced coach while the Maloofs wanted Whisenant, so they compromised on Eric “PowerPoint” Musselman. In retrospect, Petrie either should have stood firm, or he should have acquiesced. Compromise gave us the worst of both worlds. It left the door open for the Maloofs to continue over-influencing the head coaching choices (see Theus, Reggie) while the team and the locker room culture languished under a series of substandard head coaches.
As an American president once said: “Mistakes were made.” And yes, Petrie made them.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 8, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I understand letting the darts fly
but you can’t keep moving the board.
Professional sports team are more complex than laying the blame at the feet of the GM. As fans, we listened to the Maloofs expound on their family meetings and presentations. The firing of Adelman was prompted by the Maloofs – I don’t necessarily blame them, Adelman handled this poorly too.
The point is: we fans cannot imagine the actual goings on for the Sacramento Kings franchise. We can guess and not much more. Did Geoff Petrie say – if you fire Adelman I go? If you hire Musselman I go? Are you implying that he should have?
DId Petrie make mistakes? of course. Will he make more mistakes? of course. Overall, darn good job. But yes, please, I hope his immediate future improves from this recent past.
Fine post MLS. Rec’d
by betweentheeyes on Jul 8, 2009 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Even though I think Petrie is ultimately answerable for the GM decisions
I’m not trying to exonerate the Maloofs. I have no idea how the GM-owner dynamics work in this (or any) case. Petrie may have been in an impossible position on some of these bad decisions, especially the head coaches. The Maloofs are used to getting what they want, and they no doubt pushed hard behind the scenes. Neither party has ever blamed to other (unless you believe Ailene Voison’s Colleen Maloof claims), which shows a lot of class on both ends.
Anyway, at the risk of sounding wishy-washy here, my point is that no one gets off the hook—-not Petrie, not the Maloofs. I think Sam Amick summed it up best in his mid-season grades last season:
Management: D
From Kings co-owners Joe and Gavin Maloof to basketball president Geoff Petrie on down, they created this mess.
Rebuilding is one thing, but the way in which they tiptoed through the demolition process meant they didn’t get out before the debris started falling. Petrie’s recent trades have had little to no impact other than saving his bosses some money. The out-of-sync relationship between the front office and former coach Reggie Theus originated from the dysfunctional way ownership and the basketball president worked together in hiring both Theus and Eric Musselman.
And months after talking about “husbanding your (financial) resources” as a means to returning to relevance, Petrie signed Beno Udrih to a five-year, $32 million deal when he was bidding mostly against himself (Baron Davis already was headed to the Clippers, who had pursued Udrih) when there were cheaper, shorter-term, safer options out there (Chris Duhon). With the February trade deadline coming, they can’t afford to make any more mistakes. Petrie and the group avoid an “F” simply because Spencer Hawes and Jason Thompson, his last two firstround draft picks, continue to show promise.
Amen Sam.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 8, 2009 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
ditto rec'd
for not making a retarded “let’s bash petries draft record post” and for giving a very even handed and fair assessment of Petrie’s abilities and decisions…
Speaking of which, concerning the Bibby extension, I seem to remember that that was also heavily influenced by the Maloofs who loved Bibby for his clutch shooting during the playoffs and wanted to reward him well.
Concerning the max contract to C-Webb, wasn’t there a lot of interest, particularly from the Knicks that ultimately forced the Kings hand in giving CWeb the max deal he demanded so that they can keep together a champ contender? Also, Peja was mentioned as a potential MVP for one season (ridiculous in retrospect…haha) so i won’t say the extension’s too outrageous….
All in all, you really can’t pin any of the extensions as Petrie’s fault (other than beno, but then he was showing promise until….he got a heart transplant this season??) rather pin it at the fact that Sacto just isn’t as appealing for top FA with other….more glamorous destinations so in those glory years when Kings FA/RFA were all a bit overrated and Petries wanting to keep the Champ Contender core together, you really can’t blame him for overpaying anyone when everyone was trying to overpay for Kings players….
anyhow, good post….i wonder how people would’ve graded Petrie differently if only we didn’t get screwed back in 2002 and Vlade volleyed the ball somewhere 20 ft into the stands….=[
Good point about needing to overpay to attract talent to Sac
And if you look at those deals (Webber, Bibby, Peja, Miller) from a what-should-they-have-done differently standpoint, it is hard to fault any of them given what was known at the time. Webber was a continuing All-Star. Bibby hit huge shots in big games. Peja was second in the league in scoring in 2003/04. Miller was supposed to be Vlade-2 (with a slightly different smoking habit, as it turned out).
The key criticism is the timing of the rebuild. Clinging to the hope of a championship behind Bibby, Peja, and Miller seems ludicrous in retrospect, although a lot of us drank the Kool-Aid at the time. Even Shaq thought Coach Phil should have come to Sac, which he wisely did not do. Don’t get me wrong; I still hate the guy. But his decision has been vindicated in spades.
And anyway, I sure as hell hope that the Kings do not offer a max contract to a high risk player ever again.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 8, 2009 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Let's say it all together now...
With high risk…..comes HIGH REWARDS!!!!
yes hindsight is 50/50 but if you’re one major piece away from contending for championship (and no one should doubt that the Kings would’ve contended for awhile IF webber had been healthy/didn’t land the wrong way in that Dallas series, gotta say that’s the on franchise in the L, even more than the lakers, that I really hate—not only did they close the Kings Championship window but they then went on to be contenders….making me endure years of watching the team that destroy the Kings’ chance at a title contending for one hurts….) it is definitely worth the risk of it all blowing up in your face….at least in Petrie, we can be pretty sure that if he goes for a high risk we can be pretty positive that the team’s close to contention.
Now….let’s just hope we get lucky and hit a Wall for next year grin grin* or someone overrates Kmart expotentially and offers us something ridiculous :D
OR
With high risk comes an imploding franchise destined for 17 wins. Your point is still valid; there is a lot of gambling in this business, and sometimes you have to make a leap. But I am still opposed to max contracts for anyone other than Lebron/Kobe/D-Wade-type players. Webber was given a 7-year max contract, and here we are 8 years later still feeling it. He had had two major ankle injuries in the previous two seasons before the knee injury, and had never played an 80-game season.
Also, I see the knee injury as an inevitability rather than a stroke of bad luck. I remember how C-Webb was heavily icing both knees after every game prior to the injury. He gutted it out, but I recall that he later said how his knees were killing him right up to the point where he went down. The warranty was up on his knees two years into a seven year deal.
Given the history, a max deal was a huge gamble—-and we lost. I’m not saying they absolutely did the wrong thing. But I am saying: Don’t do it again.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 8, 2009 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with DJ here
when you’ve got a chance at the Ring – you take the chances you need to.
If all you want to shoot for is to be pretty good, make the playoffs most years . . . .
Safe doesn’t leave footprints on the Moon.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jul 9, 2009 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Great quote.
Also, isn’t every player a high risk player? Doesn’t it come with the territory?
Lower their expectations and rise to met them
Yes, but...
There are, in my opinion, certain red flags to be avoided: Injury history (Webber), high mileage (Abdur-Rahim), chronic conditioning problems (Bonzi), inconsistent performance (Mikki), an aversion to defense (Beno), heart problems (Peja), or a history of doghouse occupation (Beno again) and/or head casery (Artest).
Never say never. But when the red flags flap, pay attention.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 9, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions
You have seriously narrowed the field.
Lower their expectations and rise to met them
It is certainly unrealistic
to avoid red flags altogether. But multiple red flags (Beno, Bonzi), really bright shiny ones (Shareef), or freakin expensive contracts in light of said flags are the wrong thing for this team right now.
That’s really my main concern: What to do now and in the future—-you know, moving forward. Not so much what should we have done then.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 9, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I think I've caught up with your thinking.
I’m with ya.
Lower their expectations and rise to met them
to have allowed Webb to walk
(which is what would have happened had we not offered a 7 year max deal) would have been immeasureable stupidity…literally, the end of the franchise, and would have been perceived by Stern and the League and Sacto’s fans that the Maloofs were not serious about contending…come on…great post otherwise… but the idea that the Kings “shouldn’t make that mistake again” is absurd…you pay to win…the only thing I can fault the Kings for is failing to move Bibby when he had higher value…but the Webb deal was the right deal to make at the time, and just turned out to be a disaster…and for disasters you pay with 17 win seasons…
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Maybe I'm too conservative
But if the Kings are ever in a position again where they have a big-time player approaching age 30 with a history of durability questions, even though he may have led them into elite status, it seems to me that they have to hesitate before offering a max contract. They should at least consider other options, esp. a sign and trade involving significant young talent and draft picks. For guys like Duncan and Garnett who showed tremendous durability and talent, there would be no question. But for a guy like Webber, I would be very nervous about a max contract at his age and with his history. Again, I’m not saying they messed up. But I would at least want to consider other options in a similar future situation, if one ever arises.
Maybe I’m too cautious. Maybe I’d make a lousy NBA owner. Probably so.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 13, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Very well done....
I agree with the whole thing. Petrie built the team that was championhsip-caliber here once before, so I for one trust his ability to get this franchise back on track. I think fans in general here get WAY too attached to the players, and tend to really overvalue them. I don’t blame the Kings for overpaying to keep the core of the roster together (Bibby, Webber, etc). You don’t have many chances at a ring and they swung and missed. Most teams would have done the same thing. but now…..REBUILD!!!!
A very fair analysis
of one of the more mysterious GMs in the league.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
My favorite Yogi line...
“If he were alive today, he’d be rolling in his grave.”
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 8, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Great post
I agree with almost everything here.
Outstanding post.
My couple o’ cents:
1. If I understand correctly, I agree that the damage we are recovering from now was done by trying to patch back together a roster – to keep something going that had, in 50/50 (sic) hindsight, run its course.
2. I have commented before that, in my opinion, free agent signings have basically two purposes. One is to land the big fish that takes you to the promised land (please don’t fawn over the beautiful mixed metaphor). The other is to get the right planets orbiting around that sun. If you aren’t landing the star or you don’t already have him, stay out of the free agent frolic. The recent ugly record is a matter of putting potentially complementary parts around nothing but other potentially complementary parts. You never end up with a complementary whole.
3. Chris Webber was a genuine star, and a genuine max contract-type player. He broke down. If foresight was 20/20 (and maybe it could have been better) that deal wouldn’t have been inked. But he was truly a basketball player of rare quality.
4. I can’t even start on why, how, what the… regarding pushing Adelman out. But…precious water under a really long bridge. Here’s hoping Mr. Westphal will right the rickshaw.
Lower their expectations and rise to met them
by left hand on Jul 8, 2009 3:01 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
It is really interesting to contemplate
What would have happened had Rick stayed, and assuming the Maloofs weren’t breathing down his neck the whole time. I think it is pretty safe to suppose that the Kings would have been less terrible these past three seasons, but they still would probably have gone south anyway. A good coach can only do so much with a team full of role players and substandard free agents. I’m happy for Rick that he didn’t have to go through that here. That recurring image of Rick resting his forehead on his hand would have been a fixture on page 1 of the Bee sports section. I think that even the one-time Adelman detractors now recognize that this guy really did very well with whatever hand he was dealt.
BTW, mixed metaphors rock. Petrie needs to step up to the plate and grab the bull by the horns.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 8, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Great post
Very interesting read.
I would argue that we absolutely HAD to sign Webber to a max contract. There was no other option.
I don’t think Bibby was a terrible sign to such a large contract either. He was incredibly clutch in the playoffs, which I think people tend to forget. Sports Illustrated had a GM poll at one point where they asked for the top 10 last shot players in the game and Bibby was the consensus #2 behind Kobe.
I absolutely agree that we needed to blow this thing up WAY earlier.. Making the playoffs as the 8th seed when you are old or just missing the playoffs is the absolute worse position to be in because you accomplish nothing and miss out on the draft’s best talent. The Wizards know about this..but continue to put all their eggs in the Gilbert Arenas basket for some unknown reason.
I think Petrie has done a fine job. My biggest beef is not starting rebuilding earlier. At least we don’t have Ernie Grunfeld!
The NBA: "Where 27 free throws happens"
I pretty much agree on Webber and Bibby
If the Kings had not offered C-Webb the max, he probably would have bolted, and the excitement (and heartbreak) of the 2002 playoffs would not have happened. I just hope the Kings don’t do that again, unless Reke turns out to be the second coming of Dwayne Wade. Aging stars (if 28 is aging) with a history of leg injuries are extremely high risk for max contracts, with the downside being what we have all witnessed these last six years.
Bibby was overpaid IMO, being a defensively-challenged but offensively-solid combo guard with a knack for clutch shots. But the error with him was more the timing of his departure rather than the contract itself. The same is probably true of Peja. The Kings could have acquired some series talent and/or assets if they had unloaded those two guys a season or two earlier than they did.
But to paraphrase a former president: there I go again. It’s not like the rest of us don’t have our share of F-ups (or as Aykis might say, Natt-ups). I just wish I could make $5M a year for mine.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 8, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree
But there was no way we could have not signed C-Webb max. Think of the backlash and ridicule Petrie would have taken if he said “I dunno…I think Webber has taken us as far as he can.”
The only problem, as you state, is when we got rid of them. I think Bibby and Webber both deserved the contracts they got..they played their hearts out for us. If Webber hadnt gotten injured against the Mavericks there’s a very real possibility we could have won championships in 03 or 04.
The NBA: "Where 27 free throws happens"
As I point out above (see my response to DowJones)
I do think Webber’s knee injury was close to inevitable. His knees were in very bad shape leading up to that injury. I remember when he went down, there seemed nothing unusual about his fall. One moment he was running down court, and the next he was laying in a heap. It was not a freak accident; it was wear and tear—-literally.
And yes, if they had not offered the max and Webber had bolted, Petrie would have taken a lot of grief for about two seasons, right up until the warranty ran out on C-Webb’s knees, which I am quite convinced would have happened wherever he went. Then Petrie might have looked downright prescient. A sign-and-trade for a durable star coupled with a draft pick or two would probably have worked out better, hindsight being 50-50 and all.
Again, I don’t fault the decision, given what was known at the time. What I am saying is: Don’t do it again.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 8, 2009 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wait a second
Lots of NBA players have knee issues. Pick any NBA player over the age of 27 and ask him if he ices his knees after the game. The “should have seen it coming” argument is hastily bogus.
Webber had already adjusted his game to accommodate his knee issues which successful NBA veterans do. His game was jump shots, passing and quick hooks. He wasn’t the player who launched himself from the free throw line for a monster dunk like he had been 3 years ago. NBA evaluators would have expected aging. The game adjustments he made to cope with age would have put any evaluator at ease to go ahead and offer that contract.
Point of clarification
I’m not really trying to make the “they should have seen it coming” argument. I think two separate points I’m making are getting conflated here.
A couple of commenters in this thread made the suggestion that Webber’s career trajectory would have been a lot different if only he hadn’t gotten injured in the 2003 playoffs. My reaction to that point is that by that time in his career the injury was inevitable. I base that on the condition of his knees leading up to the injury and on the nature of the injury itself, which was not due to any blow or hyperextension. His knee just flat out failed as he was running down the court. I am NOT saying that Petrie and the Maloofs should have foreseen that when they signed him to a max deal two years earlier. That would be hastily bogus, as you say.
As I’ve said above, I am not really questioning the Kings’ judgement in signing Webber to a max deal, given what was known at the time. There were a few warning signs, but the Kings were on the up and up, and Webber had been their best player and their co-leader (with Valde) in getting them there. The point I’m trying to make is that, in my opinion, history should influence future decisions on large contracts. As I state in another response above, if the Kings are ever in a position again where they have a big-time player approaching age 30 with a history of durability questions, it seems to me that they have to hesitate before offering a max contract. They should at least consider other options, esp. a sign and trade involving significant young talent and draft picks.
But then, there is a reason why I am not a basketball GM.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 13, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions
What other Webber like contract has there been?
Until there is, isn’t your judgment a bit pointless?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I would apply that logic to any high-priced, long-term contract
Not strictly a max contract.
I’m not suggesting that there is a neat, tidy lesson here. I’m just saying that an abundance of caution is warranted for huge contracts, and that other options are at least worst considering where there are significant red flags.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 14, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions
What other Webber like contract that this team was giving out
When they weren’t winning 50+ games?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
So far none
But the day may come again when the Kings have a talented player (free agent or Kings roster player) that they are considering signing to an expensive long-term deal. If the red flags flap, other options should at least be contemplated before locking the Kings into another situation with significant albatross potential.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 14, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Let's cross that bridge when we get to it okay?
Until then the only thing accomplished by being a worry-wart is being a worry-wart.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
We'll burn that bridge when we come to it
Until then? Xanax.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 15, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I missed the days when the Kings traded for the sake of improving the team!!
I don’t mind the C-Webb signing at all or the Cuttino Mobley trade. I actually loved the Mobley deal and was a fan of Mobley and admired the restraint Petrie showed in not resigning Mobley to the current albatross contract.
The Cuttino deal had to be done. Doug was on serious decline. He was never the same after he valiantly fought through a gutty Game 7 performance against the Timberwolves. Mobley injected the team with more shooting and more offense. I thought Doug was expendable in 2004-2005.
Beno was unforgivable, Salmons was a pleasant surprise, Martin extension gets an A+ from me. But the Bibby and Artest deals didn’t cut it for me especially when all you did was save money and the saved money has yet to be used. Brad deal was another necessary one but the team was already in decline.
BOOK IT!
I agree about Mobley
and I probably should have said that. That was the one salary dump trade for which Petrie clearly gets a good grade. These others were more of the desperation, “take my expensive player, PLEASE” variety.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 9, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
^THE others
not THESE others.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 9, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
This was really well done
But I’m stating the obvious. Great read, MLS.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Thanks, section
Coming from a platinum member of StR, I take that as a great compliment.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 9, 2009 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I miss the days when the Kings traded for the sake of improving the team!!
I don’t mind the C-Webb signing at all or the Cuttino Mobley trade. I actually loved the Mobley deal and was a fan of Mobley and admired the restraint Petrie showed in not resigning Mobley to the current albatross contract.
The Cuttino deal had to be done. Doug was on serious decline. He was never the same after he valiantly fought through a gutty Game 7 performance against the Timberwolves. Mobley injected the team with more shooting and more offense. I thought Doug was expendable in 2004-2005.
Beno was unforgivable, Salmons was a pleasant surprise, Martin extension gets an A+ from me. But the Bibby and Artest deals didn’t cut it for me especially when all you did was save money and the saved money has yet to be used. Brad deal was another necessary one but the team was already in decline.
BOOK IT!
Déjà vu, man.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jul 8, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Zach Harper...
Has a really good article up now at Cowbells talking about how the Kings Gate receipt this year dropped by close to $10 mil, when you take that into account, the trades that sent out Bibby/Artest probably saved the Kings from moving out of town in the foreseeable future knock on wood
I’m pretty sure the saved money was just used to pay for K-Mart et al this season and to keep the Kings, as a business, out of red (yeah spending money is great when you’re a fan but when you’re an owner, it’s probably not as much fun to spend money and lose).
Great post
Nice work on that one.
I wonder how Petrie would have faired with some higher draft picks. He has done very well at pulling later picks out and finding gems, but this was the first year he has had a top 5.
I don’t really blame Petrie for last season so much because he did what you should do as an NBA GM when it isn’t working and just blew the team up. You don’t want to be in the same situation with a bad record AND a huge salary cap mess. Now the rebuilding must begin, but he may not be around to finish the product. The team is very young and it will be very interesting to see how guys like Donte Greene and Tyreke Evans pan out in 3-4 years, but it’s going to take time to tap that talent.
kingskingdom.com and moneyballblog.com
Lead fanball correspondent for the Kings and the A's

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