The Difference Between Kurt Rambis and No Kurt Rambis
by Tom Ziller on Aug 9, 2009 7:03 AM PDT
in Commentary
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PrintIt remains to be seen whether Kurt Rambis will be a good NBA head coach. That will be decided (at first, at least) in Minneapolis, where Rambis will take over for Kevin McHale. (Fitting, no?) It won't be decided in Sacramento, where Rambis turned down the job (effectively, though not technically) due to the pay scale.
And now we find out just what the pay scale difference will be. In Sacramento, Rambis would have earned $3 million over two years guaranteed, with a team option for $2 million for a third year. In Minneapolis, he will apparently earn $8 million over four years. Guaranteed.
So the difference between Sacramento and Minneapolis on paper was $500,000 in 2009-10, $500,000 in 2010-11, $2 million in 2011-12 and $2 million in 2012-13.
A $5 million difference. It's a no-brainer for Rambis, and it's a no-brainer for Sacramento. Without knowing you're getting a good coach, a good fit, the Kings couldn't very well lock up a coach for four seasons. There have been four Kings head coaches in the last four seasons! That's throwing good money after bad, and it's not smart.
While we bemoaned the cheapness of the coaching search, in the end it's the smartest path. Open up the wallet when you know you have a good fit. If Westphal works out, pay him. If not, try again. Washington, with Flip Saunders, can be reasonably assured it has a good fit. Abe Pollin opened up the wallet. Sacramento had no idea whether Paul Westphal, Kurt Rambis or Tom Thibodeau would be a good fit. So the Maloofs didn't open up the wallet. They went with the most experienced coach, the least abrasive choice, the one who Geoff Petrie got along best with. At their price. It works for me, especially after seeing Glen Taylor fork over so much money to Rambis. (And this is a team that has had nearly as many coaches as the Kings over the last few seasons!)
Coaching in the NBA is such a crapshoot (see: Popovich, Jackson, Adelman, Curry, Musselman, Porter) that it almost makes sense to, when you're bad, try out as many as you can. Stability is good, but in the long run (so long as you're developing your players) finding the diamond in the rough is worth it. It could be argued a 60-something former head coach isn't going to be your gem, but that's beside the point. I think.
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Yeah, I can't get too worked up about losing Rambis
If the Maloofs were too cheap to spend the money on a bonafide elite coach, that’s one thing. But we are talking about Kurt Freakin’ Rambis, people!
by otis29 on Aug 9, 2009 7:36 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Plus there's no reason that Westphal can't be successful with this group of players either
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
wait
Why would we want to hire a god coach when we’re not contendors. By contendors i mean for the 8 spot in the playoffs haha. Wait to a hire a good coach until we have some talent for him to coach.
$8,000,000 is a lot of money.
to pay a guy because he sat to Phil Jackson. The league nowadays is about effectively relating to players, getting the to play hard and unselfishly for you, implementing an offense and defense to fit your talent. Rambis hasn’t proven that. He may fail miserably by mid-season, and the Wolves will still be writing checks. I am glad we got Coach Westphal instead. He has less of an ego than Rambis. Egos interfere with success (see last Kings coach).
I can’t blame Rambis for going for the cash, but I wonder about his motivation, since he is entering into an unstable situation, FO reorganization, personnel retooling, a draft pick in Rubio acting like a child, not a professional. If Rambis waited one more year, he was likely front-runner in LA. Maybe it will work out in Minny, it will be interesting to watch unfold.
Try paying 10M to Eric Musselman
Over 3 years.
The Kings are effectively learning their lesson. I hope the Kings are more patient with Westphal unlike Theus.
BOOK IT!
Different market now, coaches salaries are on the decline.
Westphal will live out his initial contract- what I really like about this situation is Elie and the NBDL guys are all up and coming coaches so when it’s time (hopefully 3-5 years) for Westphal to step away, the Kings might have already found a coach they really like like from within.
"Or, as Randy Jackson would say: Not feelin’ it, dawg."
-bench-blob- posting virgin.
Don't understand your rationale...
How did you come up with the conclusion Rambis is more egotistical than Westphal? Because he rejected a Kings deal worth less money and didn’t like the Kings recent coaching carousel?
Rambis would’ve walked into a similar situation here in Sacramento with the exception of Rubio, who I think has plenty of good reasons (like >6 million reasons) to act the way he’s acting.
BOOK IT!
I have been impressed with Coach Westphal...
in that he comes across as a humble guy ready to work hard. I think that is due to the fact he’s been out of the league a while, and feels the need to prove he still has the skills to be an effective coach, at his relatively advanced age. Not too old to be a coach, but older than most of his colleagues.
Coach Rambis, on the other hand, earns big ego guy tag for sitting next to Phil Jackson. Some of his arrogance and pompous attitude must have rubbed off. I have heard Rambis in interviews a few times, and he comes across as a boorish know-it-all too.
If he makes a good job, the difference is just $3 million before the would have negotiated a new contract (with the Kings)
And if he does now, the Wolves have him locked up for another year with a salary increase of $1 million above the “going rate”. It still made sense for both sides to do what they did, however the bigger difference in guaranteed money will only matter if he would have made a bad job and would get canned after a season or two.
And the salary offered by both teams is really not that high. Blazers coach Nate McMillan is making at least $6 million – per year.
"I'm addicted to polo y'all...respect my fresh" - Travis25Outlaw
Interesting take
I’m a Wolves fan, and like you, have no idea whether Rambis will wind up being a good coach or not.
Your point is interesting, that a bad team shouldn’t extend for a coach, but should try out guys to find the right fit.
The alternative view, though, is this: if the guy you like costs, you pay. Otherwise, you are cycling through less good options and developing no continuity. With a team as far away as the Wolves, you almost have to guarantee several years to any worthwhile coach, because he knows he’s going to lose a lot of games this year at least.
If the Wolves thought Rambis was the best guy, I’m glad they are spending to get him. Whether he is the best guy, and whether the Wolves (Kahn) have good judgment obviously remains to be seen.
It was an interesting difference
between the state of the two organizatins too. I think the Kings have been a bit shell-shocked by the past coaching searches. They did not seem to have “a guy”, so they chose to set the pay scale and then try to find the coach that will fit. The wolves searched for the best available coach, and then negotiated the pay scale.
On one hand, the kings were more recently competitive, so they still feel the need to get back to being a contender as soon as possible. On the other hand, their roster is not as talented as most teams, and they need to really embrace the fact that this will be another rebuilding year.
The Kings situation this year is probably similar to the wolves about four years ago…a few years removed from a good playoff run and then the coaching changes after getting rid Sanders as the head coach.
Rambis was the "most likely to succeed" of the remaining crop that the Wolves interviewed
Interestingly, Avery Johnson, Jeff Van Gundy, Doug Collins, and Mike Fratello are out of the picture and my guess would be that finances factored in, as they would all command a higher pay scale than Rambis, Mark Jackson and Elston Turner. Kurt Rambis is the “more than unproven” candidate.
Rambis ended up with a good deal because it is gaurunteed for 4 years. My guess is that was the sticking point. TZ nailed it here – Rambis had to have more than Sacramento offered and he got it – more money and 4 years. And there was no way the Sacramenot Kings were going to go that far down commitment road either by cash (still have to hire assistant coaches) or time after Musselman and Theus.
Good call Ziller. rec’d
by betweentheeyes on Aug 9, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Would Rambis have taken less years with the Kings?
We know in general what the final deal with Westphal was, but we don’t know that Rambis was insisting on 4 yrs from the Kings. Or, whether Rambis wanted guaranteed money for the length of the contract. He might have agreed to 3 yrs guaranteed or 4 yrs with a team option for the 4th. He might have agreed to 2 yrs guaranteed at $2M per yr. All of this speculation is just that, Rambis might have agreed to $4M for 2yrs, $6M for 3yrs or somewhere inbetween.
What is concerning to me is that the Kings have hired 3 coaches since Adleman left, and they still can’t figure out who or what type of coach they want to commit to.
While we bemoaned the cheapness of the coaching search, in the end it’s the smartest path. Open up the wallet when you know you have a good fit. If Westphal works out, pay him. If not, try again. Washington, with Flip Saunders, can be reasonably assured it has a good fit. Abe Pollin opened up the wallet. Sacramento had no idea whether Paul Westphal, Kurt Rambis or Tom Thibodeau would be a good fit. So the Maloofs didn’t open up the wallet.
If GP is such a great General Manager, why do we have to use the trail and error method to find a head coach? How many years is it going to take for us to find our next Head Coach using a process where we hire the CHEAPEST coach option, give him 2 years to play around with the team, and decide whether to resign him or start over again with our search process.
I know we got burned on our latest coaching choices, but who’s fault is that? Was it Musselman’s fault because he put together a good Power Point Presentation? Was it Reggie’s fault because he had the NBA cred but not the coaching experience? Or, do the whole thing fall back on the Maloof’s because they didn’t give GP the money he needed to hire a expirienced coach who could do the job. Or, is GP & the FO to blame?
Maybe no ones to blame. Maybe finding the right fit isn’t about finding that one perfect coach. Maybe it’s about finding a good coach and giving him the TIME to work into the job. The time for him to use the trial & error method to adapt his style with the players he has, and get the best out of everyone.
Having a new coach every 1 1/2 years isn’t doing the players any good that’s for sure.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Aug 9, 2009 3:46 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Here's the logic with that statement
The Kings weren’t going to hire a good coach anyways. I’m convinced the Kings were never going to sign Flip Saunders (even if he didn’t sign w/ Washington at that point) unless Saunders agreed to sign for the 1.5 million for 3 years type of deal the Maloofs and Petrie set on.
The Kings decided to hire a retread head coach in Westphal. Westphal after his Seattle and Pepperdine tenure probably thought he never was going to get a head coach job in the NBA until Geoff set the parameters of a low cost, experienced coach. Paul Westphal fitted the description to a T. Westphal had very little leverage.
Disclaimer: I am not trying blast Westphal. But all the signs point to that description.
BOOK IT!
The Maloofs were probably
Not going to open up the wallet anyways.
BOOK IT!
Where would have the gain come if they had?
Eddie Jordan?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
No Kurt Rambis
No long term problem. No Paul Westphal, and no long term problem. Yes to Kurt Rambis, and potential long term problem.
Westphal HAD to accept the Kings terms to get back into the game. He wanted to get back into the game. He didn’t have the leverage necessary to create the extra monetary desire that Kurt Rambis was looking for. It’s just that simple.
The Kings went looking for a bargain, in part because of their mistakes, in part because of their reduced cash flow, and it may end up working out for the best.
As TZ said, coaching very much is a crapshoot. I have no real problem with the Kings not committing 4 years to Westphal when there’s no real reason right now to expect him to not be here for the next 2 seasons.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Even saying all this Pookey-
Rambis got jack-shit for cash over a 4 yr deal. Doesn’t Jackson make 15 million a season? Wouldn’t it behoove Rambis to milk Buss for a larger salary as an assistant until the Zen Master finally hangs up the old hip and then get big money as the coach of the Lake Show? Rambis must know something we here in Sacto don’t- that Brian Shaw or someone else (Byron Scott?) is the future in LA.
"Or, as Randy Jackson would say: Not feelin’ it, dawg."
-bench-blob- posting virgin.
Yup
I, too, have thought that as well. (With regards to Shaw.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
A Westphal in the hand is worth two Rambises in the bush?
I’m glad we didn’t wait until early August to hire a coach. There was also a real chance that if we waited we would have ended up with neither Westphal nor Rambis(waited too long, Westphal pulled his name, then Jackson retires and Rambis takes the Lakers job).
Who would have been the next choice? Oops, T-Wolves out-bid us. 4th choice?
I’m just fine with how it turned out.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
I disagree a little TZ
When you’re hiring the guy to lead an organization that spends about $50M a year in salary. you don’t skimp on $6M over the course of 4 years for the leader. $6M versus $200M you’re going to spend on players over that time.
If they had a legitimate preferance for Rambis and decided to save 3% on costs by hiring someone they liked worse; that’s a bad decision. Of course, we’ll never know the amount, if any, they preferred Rambis over Westphal. Look at it this way, arguably the biggest determinent of the effectiveness of your annual $50M investment is the head coach, that’s not the place to save money. Its like putting cheap motor oil in your ferrari.
I am ok with Westphal as our coach, honestly, I don’t have nearly enough information to make anything other than an ill informed guess who our coach should be.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
Thats the logic that has some teams in the red, and some in the black.
3% here and there is the difference between having to sell a Camby to the Clips for cap relief, and being a long time contender.
I'd guess
that passing on the right coach to save a few bucks that don’t go on your cap anyway has a lot more to do with being a contender or not.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
.I have never understood your logic regarding this
I never will. Maybe it’s because I don’t agree, but I don’t think spending lots of money equates to anything. How you spend is equally as important as how much you spend.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Let me try another angle
I’m not saying spending more money equates to a better coach automatically.
Where I’m going is, if you have two coaches, and one you think is significantly better than the other, then I don’t think head coach is the place you skimp. If one guy is going to be better at developing our young guys and make them better players than the other, you have to realize the big part of your investment is your players and hire the best guy to get the most from them.
Spending the most money doesn’t mean you’re right, and I’m not at all saying Westphal is the wrong guy. He may be the guy the organization actually preferred and they’re just lucky he was less expensive. All I’m saying is, choosing a lower quality coach because of money (if that’s what they did) is a bad decision. The payoff isn’t there, you save $1.5 million a year, but make the $50 mil a year you spend on players less effective than they could be.
That’s my, probably terribly flawed, logic. :)
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
Who says that selling Camby was a bad thing?
It in fact, was a very good thing for the Nuggets.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Yep. Agreed.
Very happy that Westphal is our guy. We haven’t had this much direction and focus in years. I don’t care if this is a reach, but I feel good about this season…as in 30 plus wins good.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
LOL
at this shill piece. Even the Bee has more balls.
Bee-Balls
heh
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Aug 10, 2009 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
How ironic
Your response is much more fitting of the Bee as well. I think that the two of you could be very happy together.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
This doesn't mean you deprived us of IrishSlim does it?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
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