Revisiting the Webber Trade: Wise Move or Colossal Screw-Up?
(From the FanPosts, an excellent post mortem on the Chris Webber trade. - TZ)
There has been much discussion lately about the relative merits/demerits of the second Chris Webber trade. I am of course referring to the February 2005 deadline deal where the Kings sent Chris Webber, Matt Barnes, and the unforgettable Michael Bradley to the Sixers for Kenny Thomas (our current favorite King), Brian Skinner, and Corliss Williamson. All sorts of claims and counterclaims have been made on this site about the deal. So I thought it might behoove us to try to take an objective look at the trade and its still-smoldering aftermath.
Initially, casual Kings fans were utterly perplexed by the deal, and some remain so to this day. The Kings dealt their franchise player plus two minor contracts for three overpriced forwards, one of whom still causes Kings fans everywhere uncounted nights of lost sleep. Some have characterized this trade as the worst deal Geoff Petrie ever made. But I beg to differ, and I think the facts ultimately support my position, as I will attempt to demonstrate.
First of all, there seems to be an ongoing misconception among a minority of StR readers that the trade was about talent, and must therefore be judged solely through that lens. In so doing, those who raise the loudest objections seem to want to compare C-Webb in his Kings career (1999–2005) to K9, Corliss and Skinner post-trade. This logic is itself fallacious, as I hope to show.
But the more important point is that the trade was not primarily about talent, but money. Some have argued that even by that standard, the deal was a failure. After all, the Webber contract would have been up in 2008, and yet we’re still stuck with Kenny through the coming season (barring a trade in the next 4½ months). But I believe that the facts will lead us to the conclusion that the deal was financially advantageous for the Kings to a very significant degree.
Pre-Trade History
Chris Webber’s multitudinous accomplishments as a King are not in dispute. The man made the All-NBA team for five years running (first team 2001; second team 1999, 2002, 2003; third team 2000), and made four consecutive All-Star teams as a King from 2000 to 2003. He was also the Kings spiritual co-leader with Vlade, and was widely revered among most Kings fans not named Grant Napear.
As Webber’s first contract approached its end (the one he brought with him when he joined the team), there was concern in Kings Nation that Webber might opt to leave town. C-Webb seemed to play on this fear by making inconsistent statements about his desire to stay, and sometimes hinting that his future lay elsewhere. But money talks, and given the improving state of the Kings, Webber could not decline the Kings’ generous offer. And generous it was---a max contract for a staggering $127 million over seven years. Kings fans breathed a sigh of relief, and the Kings’ upward trajectory continued. Tyra Banks was impressed.
Although he was only 28 at the time the contract was signed, a couple of red flags were quietly flapping. Webber had shown a propensity for injuries throughout his career, having never played an 80-game season and having averaged 62 games per in his previous seven seasons, excluding the strike-shortened 1998/99 campaign. Moreover, he would be 35 at the time the contract ended. And of course the future of the franchise was wedded to that huge contract. The organization would rise or fall with C-Webb. At the time, virtually no one thought it was a bad idea.
For nearly two seasons the investment seemed sound, as the Kings legitimately challenged for title contention in 2001/02 and 2002/03. Then came Game 2 of the 2003 Western Conference Semifinals against the Dallas Mavericks. And the rest is, as they say, history.
I have made the point before and I maintain now that Webber’s knee injury was in fact inevitable. Let me be very clear on this point: I am NOT saying that the injury was clearly foreseeable two years earlier when the contract was signed. I AM saying that the injury was the result of wear and tear, and not some freak accident. One minute he was running down court, and the next minute he lay crumpled in a heap. No one hit him, he didn’t land badly, and there was no hyperextension at all. Webber later admitted that his knees were killing him prior to the injury. The warranty was simply up on his knees two years into a seven-year mega-contract.
His comeback was controversial (What’s a little criminal contempt among friends?) and many of us still wonder how far that inspired 2003/04 team might have gone without him. Alas, we shall never know.
Meanwhile, three time zones away, something was about to happen that was to give new meaning to the term "head-scratcher". On July 16, 2003 (a date that will live in infamy), the Philadelphia 76ers and their now-unemployed GM Billy King re-signed Kenny Thomas to a 7‑year contract for approximately $50 million. The occasional uninformed StR reader blames Geoff Petrie for giving Kenny Thomas that horrible contract. PLEASE STOP DOING THAT. It’s very irritating to those of us who have been paying attention.
And now on to the trade.
Comparing Stats
As I noted above, there is no logic to comparing K9 et al. post-trade to C-Webb pre-trade. All such comparisons are irrelevant. Moreover, many C-Webb fans stopped paying close attention to his performance once he left. Therein lies the error.
Because they both played the same position (and I use the past tense for Kenny too), let’s start by comparing C-Webb to Kenny Thomas post-trade and see where that leads us. The stats I consider most relevant are games, minutes, FGM-FGA, FG %, rebounds, assists, turnovers, steals, blocks, points, and PER. Here is what happened to finish out the 2004/05 season with their respective new teams:
Webber: 21, 33.4, 6.8-17.4, .391, 7.8, 3.1, 2.3, 1.2, 0.9, 15.6, 13.1
Kenny: 26, 31.7, 5.8-11.7, .492, 8.7, 2.9, 1.8, 1.0, 0.4, 14.5, 18.9
And the winner is….Kenny Thomas. That first partial season, they were statistically either roughly even, or Kenny was much better, most notably on shooting percentage, rebounding, and PER. Of particular note is the number of missed shots per game: 5.9 for Kenny versus 10.6 for Webber. And not showing up in the stat line was the fact that Kenny was a WAY better defender, because he was quick and he hustled. Webber, by contrast, was slow, gimpy, and glued to the floor. In Webber’s first match-up with the Kings at Arco Arena shortly after the trade, ESPN’s Rick Bucher had the following to say:
Chris Webber returned to Arco Arena on Monday night and showed why Kings fans developed such deep-seated feelings about him during a seven-year run that lifted an afterthought of a team to a perennial playoff contender. He also showed why the Kings are better off without him… Webber played nine minutes in the final period and contributed one rebound and three points…To make it all worse, Skinner and Thomas made it look as if they should've been the featured players in the deal. Skinner had 13 points and 19 rebounds, and Thomas chipped in 20 and 15, along with coaxing Webber, single coverage and all, into an 8-for-26 shooting performance…He hit some early jumpers and made a couple of strong fourth-quarter drives to get to the free-throw line for his three points, but otherwise he made GM Geoff Petrie appear to be a freakin' genius.
Regrettably, the story did not end there. So let’s move on to the 2005/06 season:
Webber: 75, 38.6, 8.2-19.0, .434, 9.9, 3.4, 2.4, 1.4, 0.8, 20.2, 18.4
Kenny: 82, 28.0, 3.7-7.4, .505, 7.5, 2.0, 1.6, 0.9, 0.5, 9.1, 15.0
Advantage: Ehh! Webber clearly provided more offense. Rebounding appears to favor Webber until you adjust for minutes, whereupon Kenny comes out ahead. Shooting and missed shots favor Kenny by a large margin. Webber filled the stat line and Kenny didn’t. But at what cost? No defense from Webber, and as co-ball hog with AI, the rest of the team more or less stood around watching. Conclusion: Wash.
Thereafter, they essentially each played one more full season in which both players continued their respective declines. Somewhere along the way, Kenny’s shot completely deserted him, and his most impressive statistic became minutes pining, as it were. Meanwhile, as I’ve noted repeatedly elsewhere, during the 2006/07 season, the Sixers eventually paid Webber somewhere around $30 million to leave town and please don’t come back. (The Kings apparently never had the means to do that with either Webber or Kenny.) Webber signed on with the Pistons around mid-season, improved his offensive numbers slightly, continued to put on nightly Olé defense clinics, finished out the year, and more or less folded the tent and retired to his millions. As for Kenny, well I think George Carlin said it best: "I’m a little bit like herpes, I keep comin’ back."
But the point is that one is hard-pressed to make the case that the Kings actually lost talent in the Webber deal. Add in the moderately respectable performances by Corliss and Skinner, and I call the talent at worst a wash and at best significantly in the Kings’ favor.
Then there is the poison factor. What would have happened in Sacramento had Webber stayed as the Kings’ decline accelerated (as it surely would have)? There is a reason why Philadelphia paid him huge money to get lost. For all of his faults, Kenny has more or less kept quiet about his complete lack of playing time. While he has certainly become expensive baggage, he hasn’t taken the team down with him, as I believe Webber would have.
The Money
Let me open by saying that it is extremely difficult to find reliable past NBA salary information on the internets. As a result, I have been forced to cobble together numbers from a variety of disparate sources, which may not be entirely accurate or consistent. And I’m too lazy to try to document it all. In other words, there is no guarantee that my numbers are remotely accurate. So there’s that.
Let me also point out that I am not an expert on the arcane league salary cap and luxury tax rules. So I may stray off course here, but I am sure that my ever-diligent StR cohorts will quickly set me straight.
Finally, I am initially going to operate on the assumption that if the Kings had kept Webber, nothing else would have been different in terms of roster moves and salaries. As we shall see, however, that assumption is completely unworkable. But we’ll get to that.
Based upon the results of my fishing expedition, I have come up with the following data for the salaries of the players involved in the Webber trade, from 2005 to the present. I’m also including Vitaly Potapenko and Sergey Monya in the calculation, as they were received in exchange for Brian Skinner one year after the Webber trade. The 2005 salaries have been prorated to reflect only the portion of the season following the Webber trade. Similarly, the salaries for Skinner, Potapenko, and Monya have been prorated to reflect their approximate Kings salaries during the 2005/06 season.
|
|
2005 |
2006 |
2007 |
2008 |
2009 |
2010 |
TOTAL |
|
Thomas |
2.05 |
6.12 |
7.19 |
7.88 |
8.56 |
8.78 |
40.6 |
|
Williamson |
1.88 |
6 |
6.5 |
|
|
|
14.4 |
|
Skinner |
1.54 |
1.69 |
|
|
|
|
3.2 |
|
Potapenko |
|
1.02 |
3.67 |
|
|
|
4.7 |
|
Monya |
|
0.35 |
|
|
|
|
0.3 |
|
TOTAL |
5.5 |
15.2 |
17.4 |
7.9 |
8.6 |
8.8 |
63.2 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Webber |
5.99 |
19.13 |
20.72 |
22.31 |
|
|
68.2 |
|
Barnes |
0.21 |
0.72 |
|
|
|
|
0.9 |
|
Bradley |
0.25 |
0.77 |
|
|
|
|
1.0 |
|
TOTAL |
6.5 |
20.6 |
20.7 |
22.3 |
0 |
0 |
70.1 |
According to my calculations, the Kings saved $6.9 million in direct salary payments over the life of the deal. Considering the large sums involved, that number is less than impressive. But wait! There is another factor at work, namely, the luxury tax.
Recall that for every dollar a team exceeds the league luxury tax threshold, that team pays a dollar in tax. So if a team is $2 million over the threshold, they pay an additional $2 million to the league, some of which gets returned to the more budget-conscious teams. Here is a summary of the information that I have obtained on the luxury tax and the Kings salaries since 2006 (there was apparently no league luxury tax in 2005):
|
|
2006 |
2007 |
2008 |
2009 |
2010 |
|
Luxury Tax threshold |
61.7 |
65.4 |
67.9 |
71.2 |
69.9 |
|
Team Salary |
60.1 |
61.1 |
63.0 |
69.4 |
53.5 |
|
Salary w/Webber |
65.6 |
64.5 |
77.4 |
60.8 |
44.7 |
|
Luxury Tax w/Webber |
3.9 |
0 |
9.6 |
0 |
0 |
My calculations indicate that the Kings would have had to pay $13.5 million in luxury tax in 2006 and 2008 combined, with no payments in other years. I am unclear if the Kings actually received any luxury tax revenue during any of these years by being under the threshold. In any case, the total savings over the life of the contracts associated with the Webber trade appears to be $20.4 million in salary savings and luxury tax payments. That kind of money is chump change for the likes of Mark Cuban or the New York Knicks. For the small market Kings, on the other hand, that is apparently in the range of make-or-break-type money. So in that respect, the Webber trade was immensely important, even if we are stuck with Kenny for another year.
What Might Have Been
All of this raises the question of what would have happened if the trade had never occurred. I maintain that Webber would not have kept quiet as things fell apart, and that things would have gotten downright poisonous. But apart from that, there are a number of interesting possibilities to consider.
The Webber trade freed up resources for a number of subsequent transactions. Unfortunately, many of these transactions have been among Petrie’s worst. They may not have happened at all had Webber stayed. For example, we almost certainly would not have signed Shareef, and probably would not have signed Mikki Moore, not because we didn’t want or need frontcourt help, but simply because we couldn’t afford it. Petrie also probably would not have made his obscenely-bad offer to Bonzi Wells, to whom we should all be writing a thank you letter for not accepting. Finally, the fire sale of Bibby and Miller would likely have happened a lot sooner, which would probably have been the best thing anyway.
A comment that frequently comes up in many StR complaints against Petrie is that the Kings should have gotten young talent and draft picks in exchange for Webber instead of a bunch of (relative) stiffs. But anyone who has read this far should see the fallacy in that thinking. Who exactly wants to give up young prospects for a $70 million albatross with a bum knee? Rhetorical question.
To his credit, on the day of Webber trade, our old friend Peaches made the comment that the deal would ultimately cost Sixers GM Billy King his job. It took a while, but he was eventually proven right, more or less.
In conclusion, it is my assessment that the Webber trade saved the Kings approximately $20 million, did not result in a net loss of talent, and probably avoided a highly toxic implosion of a Webber-led Kings team. A series of ill-advised decisions followed, with names like Reggie Musselnatt, Shareef (and I don’t like it), Bonzi, Mikki, Beno no Bueno, etc. But none of the recent epically bad transactions/inactions can really be blamed on the Webber trade; they were just bad decisions in their own right
We will never know for sure, but it strikes me that the Kings got rid of Webber at the only time they could to the only taker out there for the only players they were willing to give up. That’s how deep a hole the Kings were in with the Webber contract. So on the Webber trade, I give Petrie overall good marks. He made the best of a really horrendous situation. There is plenty of blame to be directed his way, but I don’t see the Webber trade as belonging on that list.
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
13 recs |
51 comments
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Comments
I'm rec'ing this without reading this because it looks damn sexy.
I’ll be back later with more, uh, substantial commentary.
Victory is tasty.
by iashwash on Sep 10, 2009 1:28 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
THE REC STANDS!
well done recap.
I was still a fairweather fan in those days, and man was I PISSED about this trade. I’d rather have seen Webber out on the court with crutches than watch these other cats take the court. With love lost on Webber, I began my unhealthy obsession with Predrag, and I lived and died with his three point shots (I also lost $100, which I had to make in payments, when he didn’t win the 3pt shoot-out the second time around). Then Ron-Ron came to town and Kevin became my darling joy.
Yeah, I don’t know why I had to share that either. Man, this shit is depressing. Can we go back to talking about how awesome JT, Hawes and Reke are gonna be?
Victory is tasty.
by iashwash on Sep 10, 2009 2:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was playing a rec league hoops game the night of the trade
And none of the guys on my team could believe we had actually traded Webber. We figured he was completely untradeable.
None of us were pissed, just surprised as hell.
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
by otis29 on Sep 10, 2009 6:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What a lousy way to lose a hundred bucks
Peja was WAY ahead, and then he just folded. His shot abandoned him and he choked.
Ah the memories.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 10, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
"His shot abandoned him and he choked."
Sounds like a recurring theme
Screw you Knicks! LBJ to the Kings!!!
by Shizzo on Sep 10, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
As you mention in "The Money"
In other words, there is no guarantee that my numbers are remotely accurate. So there’s that.
Let me also point out that I am not an expert on the arcane league salary cap and luxury tax rules.
Agreed. What you’ve done is find enough information to fit your preconceived opinion of whether the trade saved the team money.
There’s also the question of whether Webber could have medically retired or taken a buyout (I have no idea whether either of these things would have been possible). So claiming the team possibly saved $20 million dollars is fairly specious without all the info.
An otherwise enjoyable read though.
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
by otis29 on Sep 10, 2009 6:08 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Well if you're going to pin me down
Most of my individual salary information came from http://www.nbasideline.com, which provides player salaries at end of season for the 2004/05, 2005/06, and 2007/08. I had to fish around to fill in the blanks, but I did not encounter any significant inconsistencies, and I did get some multi-source verification. Luxury tax threshold information was also consistent among multiple sources.
You make it sound like I picked and chose the numbers I liked to support my conclusions. WRONG! I dug around and the numbers were what they were. I actually expected them to be worse. But I did NOT manipulate them or bias them in any way. If you disagree with my results, then do your own research and prove me wrong. But don’t accuse me of falsifying the vote; that’s bogus.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 10, 2009 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not accusing you of anything
I’m quoting you directly.
The money is really the only thing that matters here IMO – I could care less how Kenny, Corliss, et al produced on the court in Webber’s absence. At this point, it means nothing. That trade wasn’t really facilitated to help on the court as much as financially. And Petrie was clearly hoping the individual parts would be easier to move down the road than one large contract.
If you are trying to do a bottom line analysis of whether the Webber trade goes in Petrie’s plus or minus column, then the money is really the big issue. Admitting that pulling those numbers together is nearly impossible makes the whole thing kinda pointless don’t ya think?
And you still didn’t address the possibility of a buyout or a medical retirement. If either of those were feasible, then you could easily claim that Petrie screwed the pooch on this deal – and the team is just now getting out from under his bad decision making.
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
by otis29 on Sep 10, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I simply meant that the numbers were not conveniently in any one place
I had to go to multiple sources, which took more work than I expected. Yes I can’t swear to their reliability, but they may be totally reliable, in which case the results are perfectly valid. And it’s unlikely that the numbers are way off the mark, IMO. If anyone wants to check my analysis, have at it.
My understanding of buyouts on huge contracts is that such moves are limited to big market teams and/or mega-bazillionaire owners like Mark Cuban or Paul Allen. I infer from the Maloof’s/Petrie’s absolute phobia of all things luxury tax that they don’t feel like they have tens of milions to toss at albatrosses in the form of lump sums; otherwise they would have done it a long time ago with Kenny.
As for medical retirement, that seems unlikely. Webber played a near full season in the second to last year of his contract, and he tried to come back with Golden State in the last year, failing to do much because there wasn’t a snowball’s chance in Hell-A that he could keep up with a Don Nelson offense. If the Sixers could have gotten a medical retirement, they surely would have done so rather than throwing nearly $30 million down the C-Webb contractual rathole.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 10, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Buyouts
I don’t think they’re reserved for just the richest of the rich owners, but given the Kings financial situation over the past several years, a buyout would have been difficult to achieve.
As noted, the Sixers ended up paying $30 million. Tough to imagine the Kings being able to put together than kind of cash for a guy not to play for them (although, one might argue that this is exactly what they do with K-9).
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on Sep 10, 2009 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed about Kenny
But the Kings spread the cost out in “six easy payments” (2005-2010).
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 10, 2009 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adding to the what if's
The best case scenario would have been Webber recognizing he could not contribute anymore earlier and retiring for medical reasons. In that case, his contract would have been covered by insurance and not counted against the salary cap. Didn’t we end up doing something like that for SAR?
by markdog333 on Sep 11, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that works
You can’t retire for medical reasons because you want to. You can only retire for medical reasons if league-approved doctors conclude you can no longer play. Webber DID play for all three contractual seasons after leaving the Kings, and therefore almost certainly could not have gotten a medical retirement.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 11, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great read
I still look at this trade as being more of a “non-deal,” due to our inability to unload Kenny Thomas (or get him to play anywhere near his contract value). Had we not made the trade, we would have likely had fewer MLE signings (’Reef, Moore, perhaps Salmons). But we would not have been any more competitive. Maybe we would have hit bottom a year earlier.
As I said in an earlier thread, C-Webb’s knee injury was catastrophic. The trade itself, in hindsight, had less impact on this franchise than we might like to think, at least when compared to what might have happened had we made no trade at all.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Sep 10, 2009 7:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice read
At the time, I couldn’t believe we actually found a sucker, er wise gm, to take that contract on. I thought Webb was done because of his injuries, so breaking his gigantic contract in to three more manageable (i.e., movable) pieces made sense to me at the time. As we all know, things don’t always go according to plan- coughkennythomascough.
It’s tough to say how things would’ve played out if we’d kept Webb, but I think section’s comments are about as good of a guess as can be made.
Please consider the environment before reading this signature.
by outrider on Sep 10, 2009 8:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well done
I remember when Webber was traded. I wrote an article for a web site I had in college (sadly, I’ve lost all those archives) about how it was a smart move for the team, but I was saddened because of what Webber represented. He’s still one of my favorite Kings, but I still feel like it was a good move for the team.
But dammit, I’m still not going to like Kenny Thomas (unless he suddenly turns things around this season)!
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on Sep 10, 2009 8:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post
but I found one small error:
…and was widely revered among most Kings fans not named Grant Napear.
Anyone who listens to Peaches’ show knows he really could give a rat’s ass about this team, or basketball in general really.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Sep 10, 2009 8:42 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I use the term "Kings fan" loosely
That’s his job (at least on TV). Grant is really only a member of one fan club, and that is the Peaches Popular Front, currently containing one member.
It’s sort of like the Popular Front of Judea (see Life of Brian). “What ever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?” “He’s over there.”
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 10, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Napear is a fan of anything its the New York Giants.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
by Aykis16 on Sep 10, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the Yankees. And his own opinions. And that's about it.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Sep 10, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post
Reasearching past contracts and savings is an inexact science at best, since you can only guess at what might have happened. We probably still would have signed another PF, since Webber was going downhill fast. But who and for how much?
Still I think your reserch makes it clear that K9 was not the huge mistake many people would make it out to be. Recd.
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
by SavageBeast on Sep 10, 2009 8:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You convinced me but...
One thing that your post has me thinking about more than anything is, would the Kings fan / Chris Webber nostalgia love-fest that is effect now have happened had he stayed? It is easy to look back at the glory years and smile. He burnt out here instead of fading away, Rock and Roll! It is probably better for us that it went down the way it did instead of hating the guy that was at the heart of some of the best basketball this town has ever seen.
by OrangeLazarus on Sep 10, 2009 9:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I commented on that in a separate thread
We can never know for sure, but I postulate that he would have worn out his welcome twenty times over. Kenny Thomas has earned some antipathy as a focal point for salary dead weight, but Webber would have been off the charts.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 10, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good post
I don’t have a problem with your salary estimates, as you clearly did the best you could with the available information. But like Otis, I think your conclusions don’t pay enough attention to the possibility of a buyout or medical retirement. The conclusions also don’t take into account the opportunity cost of having 8-odd million dollars in dead salary on the books over the last two years. You did mention Shareef and Mikki Moore, who cost the Kings something like $17 million in combined salary and who, like you mentioned, likely wouldn’t have been signed without the Webber deal.
Well written and persuasive argument, but I think there is just as good a counter-argument to be made that what happened as a direct result of the trade (Kenny Thomas, Shareef, Mikki Moore) actually cost the Kings MORE money, reduced salary flexibility and put off a true rebuild by one to three years.
by Carl on Sep 10, 2009 10:00 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
See my comments above regarding buyouts and medical retirement
I think the crappy personnel decisions (like Shareef and Mikki) were just bad in their own right. And as SavageBeast points out above, the Kings still would have needed frontcourt help; Webber missed a fair number of games for the Sixers and Detroit.
Things might indeed have turned out better if they kept him because the demolition would have happened sooner. It’s been said that things could not have gotten much worse than where they were last season, but I’m not sure I agree. Attitudes on this team are good. The organization is not poisonous. The team is still here. I think it very well could have gotten worse had Webber stayed, perhaps much worse.
But yeah, this is all rank speculation. We can’t ever know.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 10, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with all of this
especially the need to extricate the bad decisions on Reef and Mikki from the Webber trade fallout, and to that I would add that the “Kenny Thomas Failure” could largely be taken out of the Webber Trade debate as well. Maybe the wasted money on K9 didn’t have to happen if he was in turn flipped for smaller pieces quickly enough while his value was much higher, or if some of the coaching/personnel decisions happened differently to keep him out of the doghouse (pun intended).
In other words, if someone thinks that the Webber Trade was bad because K9 is worthless, I think their criticism should be pointed at the things that led to K9’s worthlessness, not the trade itself. I think you could argue that if GP was committed to rebuilding as opposed to “reloading” at the time, that trade could’ve been the first move of a rapid overhaul that probably would’ve seemed crazy at the time but brilliant and necessary in hindsight. I personally don’t blame Geoff for being reluctant to let go of the glory years too soon (and I would guess there was heavy pressure from the Maloofs to keep a winner on the court), but I think that he’s vulnerable to criticism in regards to foresight and proper perspective.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Sep 10, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Petrie never shows his cards
So we may never know if he fielded offers for Kenny during the summer of 2005 when his value was highest. I have to believe he did, but Kenny’s contract would likely have scared off any potential takers. It didn’t help that at the end of that first partial season in which Kenny played so well, he was more a less a no show against the Sonics, while Hall-of-Famer Jerome James went off.
You do raise an interesting question about the effect of the coaching changes on Kenny. He clearly declined during the Adelman years, but he disappeared off the face of the earth under Musselman (who also resurrected Corliss’ career by giving him big minutes in his final season). Was that soley Kenny’s doing, or did Muss just not like the guy? Some combination I suspect.
Back to Petrie, he may have tried to unload Kenny, but not hard enough. In other words, it would undoubtedly have benefited the Kings in the long run if Kenny was packaged with Bibby or Peja or Miller back in the summer of 2005. That would have accelerated the rebuild in a big way. But I totally agree about Geoff and the Maloofs clinging to the Kings’ winning past for far too long.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 10, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This could be an entire Wikipedia article.
by cbsf on Sep 10, 2009 11:12 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That good, huh?
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 10, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
bad
well in my oppinion i think it was a bad trade. because half the guys we got are gone or there not playin or in kenny thomas case hes sittin on the bench not gettin any minutes.
by Andrey1536 on Sep 10, 2009 11:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree
I think it was a bad trade just due to the fact that we are still paying for it (Kenny Thomas). Webber’s contract was bigger but ended sooner, and we could have bought him out like Philly did. Instead, we have been bringing in mediocre players for the past 3-4 years because we don’t have the salary cap flexibility, partially due to Thomas’ contract.
On the personal side, it was a dark day for me the day Webber was traded. I had been in the service for about 5 months and the only real access I had to news was the internet on my phone. I remember reading of the trade on my phone and feeling terrible.
For all of his faults, Chris gave the city of Sacramento and Kings fans more than we could ever ask for. We watched his career blossom and pretty much end (knee injury) while he was in a Kings uniform. I personnally wish he could have retired wearing a Kings uniform.
by blako on Sep 10, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Had Webber stayed
You might feel very differently about him today. I suspect that he would eventually have earned the title "the guy who brought down the franchise." His legacy remains strong at least in part because the Kings dealt him when they did.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 10, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great stuff MLS
I will always miss C-Webb (his, Vlade’s, Doug and Bobby’s are the jerseys that hang on my wall), but we got rid of him when the going was good. I don’t think I could have grown to hate him, but I think we all would have lost a little to a lot of our love for him if he stayed.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
by Aykis16 on Sep 10, 2009 2:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Money Thanks!
(see Player Anagrams Poll).
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 10, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shareef don't like it
Rockin’ the Casbah, Rockin the Casbah.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
by Aykis16 on Sep 10, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I've been saying for months, except with statistics to back it up.
Phenomenal breakdown, MLS.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.
by andy sims on Sep 10, 2009 4:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post MLS - if I could rec you more than once I would
I am in the minority here but have consistently said that I think that unloading Webber’s contract was some of GP’s best work. At the time, both Webber’s and Bibby’s contracts were clearly excessive but we were going for the whole enchilada at the time and if we would have won a Championship we probably would have thought it was money well spent. I’m thinking that’s how the Celt’s fans are going to be feeling in 2 more seasons.
I agree with your point about the medical retirement as well. It’s possible that at some point Webber may have been eligible for a medical retirement but that would have meant putting up for declining production and a huge salary for 3 seasons past his injury. It’s a point that can be argued but never resolved. I agree with you that if Detroit thought they had a chance to collect the insurance money that they would have rather than buying him out.
Lastly, with regard to the money and specifically your lux tax argument; it has been argued before and will be argued again. I am willing to accept your research and think that Petrie made the best deal he could at the time. If I was going to critique Petrie for anything it would be in not sufficiently backing up Rick Adelman in the 03/04 season when Webber bullied his way back into the starting line up and destroyed the wonderful chemistry that team had.
Great post and support of your post in the comments!
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
by Bluejohn on Sep 10, 2009 5:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
About this medical retirement business
You may recall the Darius Miles hullabaloo from last season. And then recall Webber’s final attempt to reenter the league with the Warriors.
I’m thinking even if we’d persuaded him to retire medically, there’s a pretty good chance that money would’ve been added back onto our cap at a later date. So, IMO that’s not a reasonable argument.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Sep 10, 2009 6:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That and the guy played all three contractual seasons following the trade
Like I said above, if the Sixers could have gotten a medical retirement, they would have. They certainly didn’t buy him out because they liked him.
Agreed: Fallacious argument.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 10, 2009 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There appears to be a lot of that going around
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
by otis29 on Sep 11, 2009 6:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel like the biggest "con" argument
has gotten very limited treatment here. We got a reasonable (or maybe even good) return talent-wise and money-wise for a player with an extensive skill set but a limiting injury and a huge contract. That reasonable/good return kept us at the bottom of the playoffs/top of the lottery for years to come.
If it was a bad decision, it was bad because of how it fit into the big picture— the direction of the franchise rather than just a Webber vs Thomas comparison of PERs and dollars. Was trying to stay afloat the best thing to do at the time, or should we have let the ship sink?
Who knows. The Sonics series felt joyless, and I wouldn’t have minded missing those playoffs to get a faster start on rebuilding, but we might have been in that same spot that year anyway. The Spurs series was a whole lot of fun, entirely because of Ron, Bonzi, and K-Mart. But would we have been better off if we had bottomed out sooner and wound up with a high draft pick in ’08 in stead of ’09?
To me, those are the difficult questions of the Webber trade much more than questions of the individual players’ talent and salaries.
by twasserm on Sep 11, 2009 8:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I tried to address this
In an earlier post. The current post was my attempt to assess the trade on its own merits.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 11, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We got a reasonable (or maybe even good) return talent-wise and money-wise
Are we talking about the Webber trade? Corliss was a good bench player and great guy. K-9 was not horrific for two years and then fell off the map. Where is the talent you speak of?
by Carl on Sep 11, 2009 10:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The stats in MLS' post above
seem to show that K-9 was not horrific for two years then fell off the map while Webber was horrific for two (post-injury) years then fell further off the map. We gave up Barnes (a young bench guy with potential) for Corliss (a solid bench guy with veteran leadership).
It was not close to decent talent return for Webber in his prime, but as MLS demonstrated, the Webber we traded away was not a Webber in his prime.
by twasserm on Sep 11, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suspect Carl is making a distinction between "reasonable" and "good"
I would agree that the talent was reasonable given the near-decrepit state of C-Webb, but was not especially good. Not terrible, mind you, but obviously no keepers in that group. At least no one they wanted to keep.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Sep 11, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A point no one seems to mention...
First and foremost, kudos on a very thorough, well done analysis of this trade. In all of the aftermath though, no one seems to mention that it ain’t over yet! While Webber was simply bought out, Thomas’ contract can and hopefully will be used for a deal this year (please package him with Beno so the Kings can rid themselves of that contract). A Thomas deal now could give the original trade significant additional value, assuming of course that a good deal is made. Obviously, this is pure conjecture, but still a relevant and potentially beneficial ending to this deal…
"Granted, this is not a great situation, but when all you have is lemons, you add some vodka to dull the pain..."
by Mcamp49 on Sep 13, 2009 8:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Great point
Then again, we could just let it expire and get nothing (which isn’t a bad thing) but you make a very good point. I guess we’ll all know by the trade deadline
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Sep 13, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still say this trade was a mistake
BOOK IT!
by kingme18 on Sep 20, 2009 10:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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