30Q: Who Will Be Sacramento's Whipping Boy?
by Tom Ziller on Sep 13, 2009 1:45 PM PDT
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Print30Q asks the important questions about the Kings all through September.
A 17-win season obviously brings plenty of blame for all parties involved. And no one expects this team to break the 30-win mark, so it follows that blame will follow. Even for us, the reasonable, reasonably balanced longview fans who know that you don't grow without growing pains, we'll find a whipping boy or two.
Last year, we had Beno Udrih. And Mikki Moore. And Reggie Theus. And Kenny Natt. And eventually Rashad McCants. And a touch of Will Solomon. And of course Kenny Thomas. And a touch, in some corners, of Kevin Martin.
It's impossible to know who will suck or get injured, and sucking and getting injured tend to be the routes toward whipping boy status. But we can always guess irresponsibly, right? Right.
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I let the rookies off the hook. I actually refuse to vote on this poll, as I’m an eternal optimist. If I had to vote, I’d pick Beno, because I really don’t think he’s going to come to camp ready to fight for his job, though I’ll sure be hoping he does.
I'm thinkin that you just did vote, though unofficially
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
It's like a newspaper endorsement
Where the senior editor publishes a front page article about the stellar quality of his favorite candidate but assures his loyal readers that he intends to submit a blank ballot on primary day because he believes in non partisan elections.
Com’on Ziller, it’s alright to admit that the dark shadow looming over your sunny optimism has a name and that that name is Beno Udrih.
Of the poll list, I’ll say: Kevin Martin is a bargain, circa 2007, who knew the country was going bankrupt back then. If Petrie knew, I can assure you, he would have retired by now as GM and or bought the Kings. Combine the salaries of all the other people on that list and the sum does not surpass Beno Udrih’s. I think the poll should be, “rank these people in regards to each’s level of importance to the franchise then after the results are tallied we can post the salaries next to each name.” I think that would tell us something about who should be a whipping boy.
I couldn't vote either...
I think I would add a bit more than just picking a #1 whipping boy… There really are so many options…
I would also pick #1 Beno because he already is the whipping boy and what happened last year is just easier to continue. Even if Beno picks up his game he isn’t likely to be able to have the confidence in his own game to succeed and he really is talented as a SG, not a true PG.
But then at #2 Greene we have because he isn’t performing and seems to be just goofing off most of the time. When a team needs talent to step up and it seems like the player is just having too much fun to really buckle down and play well. There isn’t much he can do about it because he isn’t likely to see any playing time.
- is different from #1 and 2 in that it really depends on how well the team plays. If the team doesn’t pick up and take care of business then it is going to fall on Petrie and Westphal. I would pick Petrie for #3, even though he is my #1, but think most may blame Westphal if the team plays poorly.
Beno seems like the most likely candidate...
We cheered for Miller and Moore to be on the bench because we wanted more Shock and Hawes. We’re gonna want more Tyreke. I guarantee it.
Donte Greene for me
He has to improve his maturity and start showing flashes of the potential that Petrie saw when justifying trading Artest for him. Can Donte do it or is he a bust?
BOOK IT!
To be accurate -
Greene and Casspi were had for Artest, along with B-Jax for salary offset. This for a guy that would have left anyway.
Greene is behind Nocioni and Garcia at the 3. Udrih’s minutes will come at the expense of Evans, Martin and perhaps Rodriguez. The fans will tire of seeing Udrih quickly if he is anything short of very good.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Voted for Beno
I’m expecting him to come into camp and fight for his job. Unfortunately, he seems like a guy who is going to fold under pressure, not be motivated to be better by the competition.
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
Unfortunately Beno does
He is his own worst enemy. He needs to be more confident in himself and work harder.
Ha mustang you didn't get the joke
He was talking about Beno winning the poll.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
DUH
OK, got my dunce cap on. Good one, even though it took someone pointing it out. And here I am a loving of sarcasm…
If the Kings don't play better defense and rebound better
they are going to lose. And, since PW came in declaring that better defense and rebounding is what this team needs, he will be the scapegoat if it doesn’t happen.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
I pick Hawes
Rebounding and defense must improve in year 3 and he is the only legit center on the team. The lack of depth in his position makes whatever he does obvious compared to the other positions where there are some more options.
Finding positives in a 65 loss season since 2009
I agree
not that Hawes will underacheive – but that the expectations are pretty high for him this year and like last year, when beno was the only option (really) at the point, he’ll take a lot of heat if he doesn’t learn to protect the rim and/or has any trouble on offense.
I don’t actually expect him to have trouble on the offensive end though.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 14, 2009 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I think you have a good point.
With the team’s weaknesses being the same as Hawes’, frustrations with the team’s inadequacy in rebounding and D will be focussed on Hawes.
I voted for Beno, with Spencer being my only other consideration
Beno probably won’t fight for his starting job. His attitude seems to be that he’s got his contract so he doesn’t need to work anymore.
I considered Spencer for a second because this is the year he needs to step it up and become a leader on this team to really give us that boost. However, he was only a slight consideration due to the fact that I see him doing just this this season
www.mancancook.net
Beno
Because I think Sergio sees more minutes than him as he performs better, and then we have a K-9 MLE edition.
Also, my second option is Geoff Petrie. Particularly because of our lack of real depth at the center position. If I were an opposing team, my entire strategy would be to attack the basket every single play early on to try to get JT or Spence in foul trouble quick. Because if Spence goes out, I think that moves JT to center and we bring Noc or May to the 4 and sub in Garcia. If JT goes out, we can do the same thing. But if Spence and JT go out early? Or if one of them is injured? We’re kinda sorta screwed.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Beno
The guy’s in a hole and has to dig himself out, and as seen in his history (ahem… Spurs), he doesn’t do well elevating himself through rough times. Sadly, he does even worse when fighting for a roster spot (ahem… Wolves). If he can’t maximize his effort when he’s about to lose his job, how well is he going to do when the worst thing that can happen is he gets front row seats and keeps his paycheck?
Beno Udrih needs to become a man, or he’ll end up a dog.
Victory is tasty.
I think it will be Garcia
I hope I’m wrong, but I have a feeling he’s going to have a bad year.
Ba-da
I voted Spencer
I don’t understand how 50% could say Beno? The question pertains to the upcoming year, not last year. We have added Sergio and Tyreke to take PG minutes if Beno does not earn them and boost his production A guy cannot be a whipping boy if he is sitting on the bench. Unless we simply want to ‘whip’ him for not earning his money.
I voted Spencer Hawes. When Spencer plays poorly, gets in foul trouble, doesn’t produce, we seem to get our butts kicked. We are going to rely on Spencer in a big way without a proven back-up. If he does not put numbers around 16/10/3, then he is going to get his fair share of (deserved) criticism.
What??
A guy cannot be a whipping boy if he is sitting on the bench
Two words: Kenny Thomas
The future begins now...
As earlier, I agree with this
The expectations are ramped up this year for Hawes and all those notes on the PG situation strike me as correct.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 14, 2009 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions
I voted Donté
I disagree with it (for now at least), but I can already see the signs. A lot of people have been calling him out, expecting him to produce like a seasoned veteran who was a high lottery pick. In actuality, he’s a late first-rounder in his second season. He has a lot of growth potential. He may never be a great player, but he’s already being call a bust or a failure by some folks around here. I fear that, barring a dramatic improvement in his play, we’ll see a lot of anti-Donté sentiment.
I hope I’m wrong.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
one thing that could speed it up
is if Omri takes off, and leaves Donte in the dust.
Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."
I still don't think that would be fair
Omri has been playing in a professional league for several years. Donté had a year at ’Cuse and limited playing time last season.
But I think you’re right, it wouldn’t be surprising if that happened.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
Donte at 3
In watching Donte’ play in the Summer League he played a lot at 4 with JT at 5. I actually think that this helps him in two ways. It gets him off the 3 point line and takes away some of the bad shot impulses AND the dude is 6’11" tall. He can get his hands up and plays defense way better in low than out on the court. Reminded me of the bird man a bit.
The reason I say this is that I hear a lot about Donte at 3. I think he would be better played, with some time on weights and beefier, at 4 as PF.
The comparisons to Omri and other SFs are not really fair because they are quicker and shorter. Omri is 6’8" tall and should have a different game going.
Omri's also damn fast too.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Hmm..
Yes, Omri is fast, damn fast. I am now thinking about Donte’s own speed and how that stacks up against other 4s…
We could probably have a really good up-tempo lineup
JT at the 5, Donte at the 4, Omri at the 3, K-Mart at the 2, and Tyreke at the 1. Mike D’Antoni would love using the SSoL offense with that lineup.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Exactly my thoughts!
Maybe there are no holes in our line-up… I was just posting this exact thought below in response to SavageBeast.
Oh trust me we have definite holes
Especially in Bigs. Besides JT and Spence, all our bigs are undersized, or they’re Donte, who’s not really a PF, but will probably see some time at PF this year. Noce will too I think, with JT playing some 5.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Which worries me
Because JT was NOT comfortable playing the 5 in summer league.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Hawes can run too
He may lack foot quickness on the defensive end of the floor, but on the few opportunities where the Kings got out and ran last year, he was one of the first players down the court.
My point being that we don’t necessarily have to go small to be a running team.
Is Donte really 6’11"? He always looks a couple inches shorter than JT whenever I see pictures of them together.
Hmm...
I do agree that we have holes. My thinking is that how do we use what talent we have so that it seems like, perhaps, we don’t. What can we do to use our talent to the best advantage? Seems like run and gun is really all we can do.
As to JT at 5, in watching during the season, last year, it seemed like JT really gravitated down to the low post whereas Spence shifted out to about 10-12 feet… It seemed that JT was more comfortable going in and banging around than Spence. I think he feeds off the contact enough to play 5.
Voted Donte
People have been calling him out, and not without reason. One of the seemingly easiest things to fix in basketball—shot selection—did not improve over the course of a complete season. Now that’s damning of a coaching staff as well; and in my eyes that is a pretty good reason not to write off Donte—cause it seems like he needs some good coaching. His summer league play showed that he may be catching on—playing tough D, and finishing around the rim—but he still took quite a few bad shots.
Personally, I doubt that Donte will ever develop into a starter-caliber player. But we all know that he has the talent and athleticism to do it. I think that’s why it’s frustrating for us to watch him not develop (so far).
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills...
I’m not even going to re-type the reasons why I think this is ridiculous.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
Ridiculous?
I think there are many reasons to think that Donte will become good; just as there are many reasons to think that he won’t. From what I have seen of him, I doubt he will develop into a good player. Having said that, I really want him to—I am pro-Donte!
I realize he is young. I realize he was a 23rd pick (or near there). I realize he has been the victim of bad coaching. I don’t think it’s for lack of perspective that I feel the way I do about Donte—so save your condescention.
28th pick
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Yes, ridiculous.
Your comment was a response to mine. Your comment was directly counter to the viewpoint I had given. The one reason you gave for your anti-Donté sentiment was his shot selection. My counter to this would be exactly what I had said in my initial comment.
I wasn’t trying to be condescending. In fact, I specifically worded my comment to avoid that. Rather that saying “this is ridiculous” as though it were a fact, I worded my comment to say “I think this is ridiculous”.
My entire point, which seemed to have been missed or ignored (at the very least it was not discussed in your reply), was the following:
A lot of people have been calling him out, expecting him to produce like a seasoned veteran who was a high lottery pick. In actuality, he’s a late first-rounder in his second season. He has a lot of growth potential. He may never be a great player, but he’s already being call a bust or a failure by some folks around here.
I think it is ridiculous to make statements about his lack of development after one season. You made a great point about the coaching that Donté has received up to this point, but then you follow that by saying:
Personally, I doubt that Donte will ever develop into a starter-caliber player.
Really? After one season, during which you believe he received sub-par coaching, you believe that this 21-year-old player has already sealed his fate as not being able to someday become a starter? That’s what I find ridiculous.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
You dont think that I addressed your first block quote by starting my reply “People having been calling him out, and not without reason” and then citing his largest flaw? I think it was a pretty direct and honest response—I just disagree with you—and I think justifiably.
I pointed to shot selection because I think that it is one of the most easily changeable behaviors. Donte’s has been very bad, it’s very easy to see, it’s his biggest problem, and it’s what is most likely to keep him from getting solid minutes.
So far Donte has had one full season with little to no development. Which is more ridiculous: to ignore last season, or factor it into one’s account of a player? Like I said, I don’t feel like Donte will become a good player; but I understand how you and others might. I disagree with you; but I find it a little insulting for you to my thoughts ridiculous. I surely dont think that—and never stated—that I think that Donte’s fate is sealed—that’s a mischaracterization on your part.
With Donte, it’s a weird line to toe: He’s talented so let’s be patient; but he was a 28th pick so we shouldn’t have high expectations…
My disagreement
I think that Donté’s shot selection is an issue. But I do not think it is a big enough issue for me to say he’ll never be a starter.
How about a quick player comparison for rookie season:
Player A – 10 mpg, .385 FG%, 2.9 ppg, 0.5 apg, and 1.3 rpg
Player B – 13.2 mpg, .326 FG%, 3.8 ppg, 0.5 apg, and 1.6 rpg
Player A is Kevin Martin. Player B is Greene. Martin was the 26th pick, played sparingly, and had mediocre numbers. Donté is pretty similar. While I’m not trying to suggest we should ignore his rookie season, we have to look at the appropriate context. The rookie season may not define a career, and we shouldn’t overvalue Donté’s production or lack thereof.
As for your last line, you say it is a weird line to toe. Why does it have to be one or the other. I say he’s talented so let’s be patience, and let’s remember that he was a 28th pick so we shouldn’t have high expectations. Let’s be patient and let him become the player he will become.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
Good points
Kevin is a good example, Gerald Wallace is another, Hedo took a while to fully develop, too.
They are all Petrie draft picks…maybe it’s a tendancy that has to be recognized in his successes picking late in the first round.
He're the rookie season for a non-Petrie
late first round PG(just for fun):
Mins – Points – FG% – 3P% – Ast – TO
23.5 – 6.4 – .418 – .207 – 3.8 – 1.8
That’s Rondo btw.
Late 1st rounders usually take time to develop. If they were ready to contribute right away they would’ve been early 1st rounders.
I just want to see some improvement from Donté this year. A step or two in the right direction and an earning of some consistent playing time.
It’s really important to allow the 1-n-done guys at least 2-3 seasons in the NBA before you start writing them off.
This goes for Spencer too. Guy just turned 21. If he’d stayed in school this would be his senior year. It will be his third year in the league so, I hope to see continued growth, expecting him to be a top 15 center is unreasonable imo. He’ll be a borderline starter quality of center again this year, but that’s ok. As long as he continues to improve his game.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Sep 14, 2009 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions
If Donte' doesn't improve
he’ll just fade into the backround. He won’t be held responsible, it will just be a sad story.
I don’t think he gets a lot of personal blame.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 14, 2009 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Donte = Ariza?
I was thinking of potential players that Donte is on the same career path as, and Ariza seems like he could be a good comparison.
If Donte continues to focus on defense, effort and fundamentals, he can contribute and get time of the floor. He can also become a solid spot-up shooter with enough repetition
I don't knwo who yet ...
… But when I’ve decided who my whipping boy is, I’m ready.
K9 will always be number 1 in my heart
cracks whip mush, mush.
Sean May is not fat. It's widescreen distortion.
All depends on whether
we are talking about our personal whipping boy or who most fans will blame our lack of success on. I voted GP, not because I think he is the failure some people here do (cough, Mustang) but because when teh team fails to win 30 games—which they will unless a miracle happens—fans will have to point fingers. I don’t think they’ll be willing to throw Westphal under the bus yet, and Beno won’t play an active enough role to cause any loses, so GP will get the hate.
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
Music to my ears :)
Yes, our GM is my personal whipping boy as has been painfully obvious in past posts. And I think you are correct, but only because there won’t be anybody left to blame. When you clear out (fire) all coaching staff and deconstruct the team (lose all veteran players) there just isn’t anybody left to blame when the going gets tough and it isn’t looking to great right now.
BUT I am not so blinded by my own animus that I can’t recognize a chance here. I don’t think Petrie’s biggest mistake was waiting so long to deconstruct the team. I think it was letting go of Adelman and he has now corrected that by hiring Westphal.
Our new coach can make GP look like a genius, even though I clearly don’t think he is one. He can use all of the talent to its best advantage, cover up the holes in the offense by rolling everybody up one one position (JT to 5, Donte to 4 thus covering our lack of bigs), and run the game so damn fast that other teams can’t play there bigs. It would really capitalize on our size (small) and the speed of our players, such as Evans and Martin. It would work to our advantage and GP would be happy playing a mostly offensive game. It would also be fun to watch and may be the only option given our roster.
One can only hope!
I hope so. I like his game.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
I don't think it will be Udrih
The only reason for that is that Udrih is already hated so much by fans, he is beyond being a whipping boy and into the “assume he will fail at all times” column.
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