30Q: Should Andres Nocioni Be Traded?
by Tom Ziller on Sep 15, 2009 10:45 AM PDT
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Print30Q asks the important questions about the Kings all through September.
Andres Nocioni was the only player acquired by the Kings in 2008-09 with a long-term contract. In the deal which sent Brad Miller and John Salmons to Chicago, Sacramento basically received cap space ... and Nocioni. Because of his contract, the Kings actually take on additional salary in comparison with the Salmons/Miller package in the 2010-11 and 2011-12 seasons. The move cut costs in 2009-10, primarily, and freed up the center position for Spencer Hawes full-time. That's it.
Unless, of course, the team also saw something valuable in Nocioni, which they apparently did. Reportedly, the Kings rejected a deadline deal which would have sent Nocioni to Boston for expiring contracts. Assuming the rumor was true (it was never debunked by anyone), that implies the Kings wanted Nocioni despite his contract (which is nearly universally seen as a bit cumbersome). Clearly, Nocioni is talented and has a place in the league. But on a young, developing team? At age 29 (he turns 30 at the end of November)?
I think what the franchise was after was some heart, some spirit. In my opinion, no team should be paying $21 million over three years for heart and spirit, but I digress. That's what the Kings desperately felt they desperately needed, so they acquired and kept Nocioni. The question that exists now is whether heart and spirit (and the aforementioned talent) is still a need to the degree it was, and if not whether Nocioni's $21 million heart and spirit (and talent) makes enough of a difference to hold onto him beyond the trade deadline, assuming there are suitors?
Three weeks ago, I would have said the readiness of Donte Greene and Omri Casspi matter in any Nocioni's proceedings, but I'm just not convinced of that any longer. This is for these reasons:
- I'm more convinced every day that Francisco Garcia will start at small forward, just due to the roster balance (or imbalance, actually). In order to play Tyreke Evans, Beno Udrih and Sergio Rodriguez while giving Garcia plenty of minutes, someone needs to play small forward. Garcia's the best option for that right now.
- I wouldn't doubt Kevin Martin being plugged into the SF slot at times. That possibility degrades the importance of Casspi and Greene.
- I have a feeling Paul Westphal will give the kids a bit of trial by fire. And I honestly think at least one of them will produce.
The question I'm more concerned with is when Nocioni becomes expendable from a team chemistry standpoint. Is that today? I mean, Nocioni was brought over as the designated hombre ... and the team drafted Tyreke Evans, Omri Casspi and Jon Brockman -- three hombres. Further, outside of Nocioni, Martin is the veteran leader. At age 26. Nocioni was meant to fix the problem created jointly by Miller (quiet, standoffish), Salmons (quiet, standoffish), Kenny Natt (standoffish, at least) and Martin (quiet, at least). But in his very acquisition, and the subsequent obvious firing of Natt, the problem was basically fixed. The team leaders will be Martin (by example), Garcia (by example/Celine Dion crooning) and ... whoever else steps up. Miller (old) and Salmons (everyday starter/veteran) were automatic "team leaders." No more. Thompson can step in. Hawes. Evans.
This is not meant to be twee, though I understand it probably reads that way. The gist, if I can edit myself in real-time here, is that the 2008-09 Kings severely lacked spirit and toughness. The 2009-10 Kings, even if Nocioni were traded for Debbie Downer, would not likely suffer from such afflictions. The team got tougher through the draft. Problem solved.
Now, is an expiring contract enough incentive to trade Nocioni? Moving him for $0 in 2010-11 salary would give the Kings $18-22 million in cap space next summer. (Enough to sign LeBron!) But given the likelihood of the Kings actually spending $18-22 million next summer, perhaps trading for talent or draft picks with salary relief as a minor concern could be in order. That's a story for another post (sometime in January).
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I like Noc
but I think he gets traded by the deadline, especially if one of either Donte or Omri is producing.
Another thing, I think our lineup this year is going to involve playing Noc a lot at the 4, possibly starting Cisco at the 3, then having Noc be JT’s backup with May being Spence’s backup.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
This is no reflection on Noc
He is a good player, and gives good effort every night. It is more just accepting that we are probably not competing for a playoff spot this season. Trading Noc could be a win-win. We can get some new pieces and Noc can go to a more competitive team.
and who plays what after the trade?
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 15, 2009 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Depends on who we get back in the trade.
Could be we get an expiring big.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
A rotation like this?
Hawes/Thompson/May
Thompson/May/Brockman
Garcia/Greene/Casspi
Martin/Garcia/Evans
Evans/Udrih or Rodriguez
with the order of Udrih/Rod, Greene/Casspi, and May/Brockman determined by who outplays whom in training camp. Not perfectly balanced (though if we got a C for Noce it would be better), but the minutes are there for Greene and Casspi if you start Cisco at SF then slide him to SG when Martin sits.
Nearly any move with Nocioni
for expirings and picks would be an honest step forward in the rebuilding process. We need to see what we have in Greene and Omri. If we win fewer games this season for it, I don’t mind. In my opinion we are about two-thirds the way thru the rebuild, and we’ll need two more good, young fellas to make a base that we can go forward with.
Losing Noc would be a blow cause he is the 3 I see best suited to playing the 4—which is crucial because our lack of depth up front. If Donte shows some ability to be effective at the 4, then I think we’d have hit two birds with one stone with a Nocioni trade. We could hit three birds by getting back a big with an expiring to for back-up depth.
I think we should trade him
Though just by looking at the summer league i kind of have a feeling that Greene might not be able to contribute much. but if he can give JT a breather i’m all for it!!
Maybe next year?
I for one would like to see Noc play here one more year and see how he does in a full season under our new coach. Noc can play multiple positions, rebounds hard and won’t back down from nearly anybody. All traits which are of value to the 09-10 Kings. I think the Kings have several other guys that should be traded before Noc, such as K-9, Beno and possibly Donte(I know, I know, but he just doesn’t do anything for me). I may regret a Donte trade down the line, but not right now.
Purveyor of Bull Plop
Next year, yes.
Not to see how he does, though. If he’s tradeable now he is more so next year. And there is no one ready to take over the small forward role full-time. At times you have Garcia and the reliable, clutch 3. At other times you have the rock and roll Nocioni. Casspi will play a few minutes and Donte’ wonte’ (won’t). Martin at three…really? Even with Tyreke playing some two that shouldn’t happen. Better to put Tyreke at three sometimes and Garcia at two when Martin sits.
One more year.
Lower their expectations and rise to met them
Yes he should
He really brings more heart and spirit but it will be much challenging for him to bring it here in Sacramento. Although he worked hard and played his role brilliantly with the young Chicago team, that team actually competed, while Kings probably won’t. I believe that Nocioni would not have minded to be a hearted leader of the young Sacramento team four or five years ago, but being 30 years old, his ambitions are (and should be) probably aiming higher than waiting for 2-3 years of rebuilding and then being probably traded anyway. His interview in March (along with the explanation for Sam Amick) is an indication – he will probably try to be what are expectations from him; but he would help someone else more; he would help himself more somewhere elsewhere; and after some time, his departure might actually help the Kings as well.
by KingsFanfromCentralEurope on Sep 15, 2009 11:31 AM PDT reply actions
Noc
I’ve defended Nocioni somewhat in the past. I’m not a major advocate, but I think he’s gotten a little bit of a bum rep.
That being said, I think you make some excellent points as to why it might be a good move, for both Nocioni and the organization, to trade him. I think you may be correct about Cisco starting at the 3 this season, which makes Nocioni more expendable. But I like the idea of him as a safety net in case Donté and/or Omri struggle early. As mentioned in the Small Ball discussion, he can also slot in at the 4 if needed to provide depth, but I see that being less of a concern than we originally thought.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
safety net?
I hope thats all we worry about with Donte’ and Omri
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 15, 2009 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Youth is served
Noc’s talents would be much better utilized elsewhere. And while I think that Noc is much better (at this point in time) than Greene or Casspi, his talent is not going to propel this Kings squad forward. I’d rather see Garcia, Greene and Casspi carve up these minutes this year. I’d be OK dealing him for expiring.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Sep 15, 2009 12:24 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Agree here
Although I’d hope for a little more than an expiring. In order to make it financially feasible for the other team, the Kings could use some of their current salary cap space to take a bigger, albeit shorter, contract back, possibly giving the other team some lux tax relief.
I'd like a decent prospect
I think he’s worth more than an expiring and I’m sick and tired of not getting anything back.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 15, 2009 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the additional cap space is more valuable than what Nocioni brings to the table.
So yes, I’d like to see the Kings trade Nocioni.
Not to mention...
add’l playing time for the kiddies!
My gut says trade him
But my brain says GP would need to give up much more to trade off Noc.
Keep him
Right now he’s arguably our best defender, he can spread the floor, and he plays with passion, which our youngsters need to see.
But this is probably the last year I’d want him on the team.
The draft lottery has reinforced my belief that there are not enough bad words in the English language.
by LeaguePassAddict on Sep 15, 2009 1:26 PM PDT reply actions
I don't think he's the best defender
He’s definitely 2nd best, and the most physical player, but I think Cisco is the best defender. Which is why I think Cisco moves to the starting lineup to start the season. Evans will probably be one of our top defenders this year, and I really see defense being a strong point for him in the future.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Have to disagree
Cisco lost his temper a number of times because he couldn’t defend the bigger SF’s. And, his frustration led to silly fouls. His inability to control his emotions may be his biggest weakness. And, his defense against PG’s relies on his ability to catch up and block from behind once they drive past him. Against less powerful SF’s and average SG’s he’s ok.
He just doesn’t have the size or strength of Noc when it comes to keeping the bigger & better SF’s from backing him down.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Not this year
We are already low on talent. We’re under the cap and not looking to spend any of that money. We don’t even know if the Maloof’s are going to spend the cap they have next year.
All Cisco love aside. Noc is a better rebounder, defender against bigger SF’s, and equally as good shooting from the outside.
But, it’s all a house of cards. Everything depends on the Bigs, Can JT & Hawes stay out of foul trouble and avoid injury? Can May return to his pre-injury form? Can Donte & Omri contribute valuable minutes? But, Noc is a sure thing. And, other than Martin this team doesn’t have a lot of sure things.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Donte & Omri won't even have the opportunity
to contribute valuable minutes if Noce stays. The minutes just aren’t there if Cisco is to play anything more than Martin’s backup. Maybe one of the two will get the equivalent of Donte’s minutes last year, but that’s not enough, and the other is completely buried.
Yep
This is why Noc needs to go as soon as a decent deal comes along. IMO, waiting until the trade deadline is way too late. Hopefully a decent deal comes along much sooner than that.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Sep 15, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions
So, we trade the better player
so the rookies can get more minutes. Even if it cost us games?
Let me point out one important number: 200. That’s the number of games missed by Kings players in the 2007-2008 season due to injuries. I’m not sure what the total for last season, but I’m sure it was significant.
There will be injuries and there will be games where players get into foul trouble. So, I’m not concerned whether or not Donte, Omri or Brockman gets enough minutes. I’m worried about winning games. So, I want the best players we have on the floor.
If we can get a better player in return, then Yes trade him. But, to trade Noc for expiring or cap space, is totally wrong.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
It's more important to win more games
2-3 years down the road than this season.
This year we’re only going to win 25 or so. If we keep Noc maybe we win 28. So what?
I’d much rather develop the young players and win 38 next year instead of 35 or 45 the following year instead of 42.
The way to do that is get rid of players that will not be a part of the future and make room to develop the players that you hope will be a part of the future. Pushing back the development of the youth for an extra win or two now is very counterproductive imo.
2-3 years down the road Nocioni will be gone regardless. Either because his contract ran out, he was traded or his skills have deteriorated to the point that a younger player replaces him.
I don’t see the point in hanging on to the older players to try and win that extra game. That’s the philosophy that caused us to hang on to Bibby and Miller and sign MLEs rather than starting to rebuild.
Now that we are actually rebuilding, I’d rather we actually rebuild.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Sep 15, 2009 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Who's to say that Donte & Omri won't take 2-3 years to develop?
Throwing a rookie fighter in the ring with a contender, doesn’t help his development. It only turns a promising rookie into hamburger.
Not a good analogy, but it should tell you where I’m coming from.
The only reason Noc’s presense on the team will hurt the younger guys is if the coach decides that Noc is better and plays him. If the coach wants to accelerate the rookies development, then all he has to do is sit Noc more often. So, your reason for trading him is to take the option away from the coach. There is no guarantee that either of the rookies will ever be as good as Noc. And, the wins your willing to give up this year, for wins 2 or 3 years down the road are wins which may never happen because of Donte or Omri.
Losing games isn’t as bad when your competitive. All I want is for the Kings to put the best team they can on the court
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The problem with your logic
Why would the coach sit a better player? So it will hurt they younger player’s development.
Maybe Donté and Omri won’t develop, but I would sure like to learn that sooner rather than later.
As for throwing them into the fire. I’m sorry, but even with no Nocioni, it’s not like they’re going to be playing 30 minutes each.
Garcia will use up most of the SF minutes maybe leaving 20. So 20 plus say 10 at the 4 would be only 15 minutes each for Omri and Donté. Sounds about right to me.
As it stands now, there will only be maybe 10 minutes total to divide between them. Probably not that much. (figure 48 SG + 48 SF + 10 PF = 106 – 36 Martin – 30 Garcia – 30 Nocioni = 10 And that assumes that Tyreke gets all of his minutes at the PG) Sounds like a wasted year of development.
I’d much rather have Nocioni’s 30 minutes to divide between, Omri, Donté and Sergio/Beno.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Sep 16, 2009 2:36 AM PDT up reply actions
I appreciate your viewpoint
You would like to see the rookies developed now. While I would rather let them develop at their own pace.
Although you numbers look well thought out, I think reality will be somewhat different. I believe that PW will play Noc less and Donte & Omri more. There will be back to back games, injuries, foul trouble, matchup and other issues where Noc won’t get the minutes you think he’ll get.
PW will play Omri & Donte enough to make a decision of their future by the trade deadline. And, although your way might be best. I don’t see it happening.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
I hope you're right
but it should be noted that Nocioni played 31 minutes per game for Sac last season. I think last season was mostly wasted for Donté, and it’s the same situation this year, except we need minutes for Donté and Omri. That worries me.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Sep 16, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
So, are you against rebuilding in general?
Because it seems like rebuilding includes getting younger and more talented—but almost always at the expense of the win-loss record—to build a team to win in the (hopefully near) future.
What does keeping Noc for another year have to do with rebuilding
We’re already the youngest team in the league. Is your idea of rebuilding that we put a weaker team on the floor now and hope we get better later?
We’re not going to get a backup center or starter for Noc. Maybe we get a expiring. But, there’s no reason to believe that the Maloofs will use the added cap space. So, how does that help the rebuild?
We’re going to have a rookie starting PG, a 2nd year starfing PF, and a 3rd (2 1/2) year starting Center. I don’t believe that having a experienced player starting at SF & SG is detrimental to a rebuild that probably has 2 or 3 more years to go.
If the Kings organization wants to put a priority on developing the rookies, all they have to due is sit Noc and Cisco. I’m willing to let the coaching staff decide who needs to play and who needs to sit.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The impression I'm under
is that trading Noc creates more minutes for the young players that we are trying to develop. Retaining and starting vets is counter-productive to a rebuild, I feel. I’m interested in trading Noc if only for more playing time for the kids. I don’t expect to get anything back except expiring(s).
Sitting assets (Noc), IMO, is just as smart as not getting playing time for the guys who you want to develop.
I’m not interested in moving Cisco.
Your motives are understandable
But, GM’s, Coaches, Players & Owners want to win now. Rookies earn their PT during practice as well as in games.
If Noc is traded and Cisco moves into the starting SF spot, how does that change anything. Someone might get a few more backup minutes, but the third string guy is going to still get garbage time minutes.
I’m all for trading Noc for a backup center, but we’re fine for now at PG, SG, & PF. But, I can’t see weaking any position unless it’s to improve another position. Certainly, trading for expiring when we’ll not using the cap space we already have, does nothing to improve the team now or later..
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
I think GMs Coaches and Owners
Have a decent understanding/tolerence for rebuilding or they wouldnt do it. Vets might not have a good tolerence for rebuilding, and that might be another reason to move Nocioni.
I think that moving Noc is a move forward in the rebuild—almost by definition, or something. Sure, rookies can earn their PT in practice, but Nocioni will almost certainly be better than Omri and Donte this year and he will take up minutes that they would otherwise see. The idea is that with PT, Donte and Omri will get the time they need to develop—and if they dont, at least it is determined.
I’m guessing you’re not a Giants fan, or the notion of a dragged out rebuiding and playing vets to stay competitive would make your ears bleed.
JaMarcus Russell.
Make the kid earn the minutes. If he doesn’t have to beat someone out it doesn’t serve him or the team, or me, well.
Vince Young is sitting on his butt because that is what he earned. He should have been there in the first place.
Omri will earn the minutes he gets, and Donte’ may or may not ever. That’s better for everyone.
Lower their expectations and rise to met them
I'd say he's a guy
You want on a team that’s a bit closer to a finished product. Give him decent minutes, keep his trade value up and see if you can deal him towards the deadline. I think his declining contract will help in that regard, and some times might see him as a missing piece of the puzzle.
And I agree with TZ, having cap space is far from a guarantee that the team will use that space on a free agent – but having cap space does give Petrie some additional flexibility on the trade side.
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
It depends on how NOC plays...
…as to whether he should be traded.
if NOC shoots well, 45% or better, plays within himself, and cuts down on the dumb mistakes, he is a valuable, gritty player, who will aid the development of our young guys, and help us win games.
If he plays selfish, shoots in the low 40%, makes infrequent hustle or clutch plays, and has an apathetic attitude, he becomes expendable.
I disagree with the sentiment that he should be moved solely Omri and Donte court time. Let those two show they belong in an NBA rotation, and are more productive players first, before sending NOC elsewhere.
Remember -
Casspi and Greene would still be playing behind Garcia. It’s not as though you are giving either one of these youngsters a free ride by trading Noc. You are merely freeing up minutes for them to earn. As it stands now, there will be little opportunity for Casspi or Greene at the 3.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Assuming Casspi and Greene
are not as good as Noc this year I see the minutes at the 2/3 as 36 for Martin 12 for Tyreke (20 at point) 26 for Garcia and 22 for Noc (with maybe some at PF). That leaves Zip.
As for Omri
that’s the way it should be for a late 1st rounder. His minutes will come, just like every other late 1st rounder on the team. Donte , also, should only be entering his 1st full season, because he came out of college before he was ready. So, just because this is his second year doesn’t mean he’s ready for or deserving of major minutes.
We were the worst team last year, and by all polls among the leading sports writers around the country, we’re going to be the worst team again this year. So, there is no logical reason to move a good player unless we are going to get an equal or better player in return. We just don’t have enough talent.
We’re really only a 12 man roster, so the minutes will come. But, no coach benches his starter, so that the backups can prove themselves. At least not if he wants to win or keep his job.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Benching? Does trading starters count?
We cleared out the starters at 4 and 5 last year so that Shock and Hawes could play so I think you may be not be absolutely correct. And we suffered for it and through it to see them develop. I don’t see this year being much different if GP decides better one more year at the bottom before we start to improve than several years of mediocrity and dragging out the rebuild…
I guess I would have to see some kind of potential in Omri and Greene that justifies moving them up in the roster.
If we trade away Nocioni then it makes it just that much harder to complete unless we get somebody to serve as a decent 4. Yet, if we don’t trade him then we sacrifice the future of the Kings and drag out the rebuilding process by not giving young talent the opportunity to develop.
It is going to be difficult. How to rebuild and win enough games to not be the worst team in the NBA? The Maloofs really need to get the fans back in attendance and the only way is to put a decent product on the floor. Losing Nocioni doesn’t help put forth a better product this year, but might in a year or two…
Tough decision. I can see both sides and can’t pick.
You gotta sell some tickets as well
Thats what scares me.
Our timing of this rebuild has been atrocious.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 15, 2009 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Darn Geoff and the Maloofs
for failing to predict the biggest economic recession in our lifetime. Darn them to heck!
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
They should have torn things down sooner
but yes, it’s silly to suggest it was their fault those errors were exacerbated by the economy.
you guys pulled that implication from
- where?
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 17, 2009 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions
This fan at least
wanted to see Donte when he went to a game last year, knowing we’d probably lose anyway. I don’t think the fans are as shortsighted as you say.
Not worried about the fans
It is the owners that worry me… How much money can the Maloofs lose before they move this team. In a larger market with more corporate and business income they would not rely on making so much money from ticket sales, or so I hear, and would still be making money from other sources even when ticket sales are down. Does this offset the cost of moving, maybe not in the short-term, but in the long-term they may see it as worthwhile…
I think that winning and getting the fans into the seats is a valid concern. Maybe the Maloofs have committed to a longer haul, but I can’t imagine losing millions is what they had in mind when buying this team.
There is a logical reason
If you determine that the sum of his contract outweighs the sum of his talent, then you deal him at first opportunity. You have a guy in Garcia that can log serious minutes at that position, so trading Noc does not leave you naked (or at least more naked, since we are talking about a bottom five team here).
I understand and respect anyone that has the opinion that we should retain Nocioni, and I don’t really mind if he sticks around. But to say that trading him would defy logic is inaccurate, in my opinion.
And 1 – Because of the presence of Garcia, minutes will not just be handed to Greene or Casspi. There would be extra minutes that they could potentially earn, but nothing would be given to them.
And 2 – Having said “And 1,” this is a team in full transition, and I would rather see this team win 25 games with the potential future than 27 games with guys that don’t factor into the future.
And 3 – And before anyone says that we should then trade Martin, I am not against the idea of trading anyone on this team if we can get greater value in return. Martin was signed for $7 million less than Danny Granger, $16 million less than Andre Iguodala, and $29 million less than Brandon Roy. He has value in relation to his contract, so you better get something in return for him. I do not feel that Noc has value in relation to his contract.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Sep 15, 2009 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Can Garcia really play PF?
The only way that I see #1 not working is for PF. I think that TZ makes a good case for Noc at 4 and if he isn’t there I doubt Garcia can fill that position well… Can he?
Other than that one question I agree wholeheartedly with you 2 and 3. Especially 3, trading Martin is not likely to get as much as we have. This guys is a proven scorer and well worth his contract.
The thing about the sum of the contract outweighing the sum of the talent that intrigues me is the relative nature of this analysis. It seems that each case for each player has to be done in the context of the rest of the talent on the roster.
I really enjoyed TZ’s analysis of the value of Noc in the context of the other talent on the roster, his veteran status, as well as the direction of the team. Very interesting and insightful to base the value of each player in those terms. It really explains some the dumb massive contracts given out to those who really should not have received them.
Noc is a 3
that will log a few minutes at the 4. I don’t see 10-12 minutes a night at PF for a 25 win team enough reason to keep him around. Noc would be matching up against smaller 4’s. Let Greene/Casspi/Brockman chase those minutes.
Again, I don’t have a problem with him being here. And I could be wrong about his value – maybe he could fetch something other than expiring in return, though I have serious doubts.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
He's played center
Chapu played a lot of time at the 4 spot with the Bulls, and even played center when the Bulls put their “small squad” on the floor.
by chapuforyou on Sep 16, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
What I saw from Noc this year
really pleased me. I like the guy and the player. Against the Hornets on Vlade’s jersey retirement night (a game I was fortunate to attend), he played with toughness and leadership. He is exactly the kind of guy I hope for the Kings to have in a couple of years when they need veteran leadership coming off the bench in the playoffs.
For now, I think his minutes and salary dollars would be more wisely spent on young, developing players who fit the direction of the organization.
Peja-vu!
Being a Noce fan, I can't say I'll be brokenhearted if he gets traded to the Celtics, Spurs or Cavs.
But I’m not sure trading him would be the best move for the Kings.
I also don’t agree that the young bigs are entitled to PT. Shouldn’t they be earning them? The way Noce earned them in Chicago when he was starting out? After all,the Bulls didn’t ship out Deng when he played bad in mid-season 2 years ago. They just made Noce the starter until Deng was good enough to beat Noce out for the starting job again.
If Donte and Casspi want minutes, they should prove they are better than Noce. He shouldn’t be shipped out so that we have no choice but to play Donte and Casspi.
There can only be one Noce!
The problem with the "Casspi/Greene should earn their minutes" argument
is that even if they earn these minutes, they won’t get them. Maybe one could get Donte-like minutes from last season. But not both. Not with both Noce and Garcia ahead of them.
Sure, one of them could outplay Noce, and then Noce should be benched. But then what do we have? A highly paid veteran who will could become malcontent if he’s benched. The next Kenny Thomas or Beno Udrih.
No, the Kings have to trade Noce while he’s still a valuable veteran. In benchblob’s second scenario above, for example
If he plays selfish, shoots in the low 40%, makes infrequent hustle or clutch plays, and has an apathetic attitude, he becomes expendable.
But, the problem is, he also becomes untradable.
Let me do my thing
Nocioni for Jawai, Humphries and Shawne Williams
Noce plays all the minutes they would have played. The Mavericks have a team certified for their coach’s small ball, with Kidd passing to Terry, Howard, Marion, Noce and Dirk.
This trade would have been easier when Greg Buckner was around. The Kings do this trade because they’re all expirings, and maybe Dallas gives up a pick.
Nocioni for Scalabrini, Tony Allen and Bill Walker
Kings get a piece of cheap young talent, and Boston replaces all those minutes with a much better player. Maybe Boston throws in a pick.
Nocioni for Mike James and Javal McGee
Because McGee gives the Kings everything they need in the roster, and Washington needs to go deep in the playoffs this year and don’t have time for him to develop (and he’s behind Haywood and Blatche in the lineup). Also, Mike James is so bad he makes Randy Foye look good. Nociono backs up Butler and Jamison, and gets his 25 minutes that way.
Nociono for Ajinca and Raja Bell
Because it’s Larry Brown, and I love me some Raja Bell.
Nocioni for Finley, Bonner and Williams
And the Spurs give up a pick, another pick and the right to Tiago, because this is a DEAL! Nociono replaces Finley’s garbage minutes, and replaces Bonner with a lower percentage shooter who can actually defend and bang and hustle. I have no idea who this Williams is.
Nociono for Matt Harpring and Fresenko
Don’t say I don’t love you Aykis, because I do. And now you know it.
Victory is tasty.
I'm all for the Wizards trade
But between Beno, James, Sergio and ‘Reke, we’d have like 16 mill devoted to PGs. It’s also one where the Kings don’t take back three players (ugh). Plus, I figure the Kings can buy out James and save a million. Plus, Javale McGee’s got HOPS and he’s a 7 foot center. so yeah, I can deal.
Freesenko ain’t a bad consolation prize, but I don’t see how Noce picks up minutes behind AK, Millsapp, Boozer and Okur. Though, between those five they would have the three positions covered pretty solidly.
Victory is tasty.
The last player the Wizards need is Nocioni
Not when we already have Mike Miller who is way better. JaVale’s also not going anywhere.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I disagree
He fits thier (Wiz) style very well and plays a little bigger than Miller. Playoff teams need veteran depth and the Wiz may blow it all up if they fail again this year.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 16, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
The Wiz love McGee the way that we love JT. No way they part with him for Noc.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
If they love him so much
we’ll take Blatche
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 17, 2009 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions
I will..........
Pack everything and anything he needs to take, drive him to the airport, and pay for his plain ticket. I want to the kings distribute the minutes between Green (he needs one last year to prove himself) and Casspi (young talent with similarities to Noc).
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