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Trade Nocioni? But what of toughness?

Something of a sideways response to TZ's Nocioni piece, and the assertion that this team grew a set via the draft.

 

I like the draft, absolutely.  I think we got spirited players, definitely.  Are they tough?  Me not being able to kick any of their asses in a fight doesn't necessarily  qualify any of these guys for the Doug Christie "Let Me Shut Your Pretty Boy Mouth For You Award."

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Interestingly, while the early decade Kings teams had swagger, I don't think this was a group widely acknowledged as tough.  No one was excited about playing them, to be sure, but it was never the kind of intimidation that so many Pistons or Spurs teams engendered in their opponents.  The Kings might run you out of the gym, but they very rarely left bruises.

Toughness = defense.

Star-divide


Evans is obviously a phenomenal athlete, but will he wear people out on defense?  Martin is an incredible athlete, and I've seen him show flashes of serious intent on defense, but at this point, no one thinks of him as a tough defender.

Casspi is acknowledged as tough, but has anyone applied that adjective to his defensive game?  Brockman is a bruiser, and will clean up on the glass, but is he going to intimidate?  I have hopes, but I just don't know.

There aren't any specific reasons why this Kings team can't be tough.  Based on the history of the franchise, by and large, there's really no good reason to think it will be.  There were Utah teams that sucked ass, and still no one wanted to play them because Jerry Sloan was going to rip his players' heads off if they didn't exact a pound of flesh from that night's opponent.  I think it's an organizational issue, because the same franchises, year in and year out, seem to hang on to the tough label, or the soft label.

I'm a fan of Geoff Petrie's, always have been, always will be.  I would suggest that, while he certainly brought his own brand of toughness when he played, as a GM, he places more value on skills and smarts.  He has neither drafted, traded for, or signed free agents with reputations for being, on average, tough.  I think Nocioni qualifies as a tough player, but I'm reasonably sure Petrie would have been somewhat flexible as to whom we received in moving Miller and Salmons.  If he had an offer for Nocioni in exchange for expirings and passed on it, I would suggest that he made a mistake.

I hope this Kings team shows me something that they have not this decade, but I haven't got any concrete reasons to believe they will.

Prove me wrong, boys, I'm beggin' ya.

Poll
Will the Kings be tougher this year?
Yes
51 votes
No
3 votes
Who are you to criticize Ziller, assface?
11 votes
This poll was a complete afterthought, and everyone knows it.
1 votes
I like candy.
12 votes
A, C, D & E
18 votes
B,C, D & E
4 votes

100 votes | Poll has closed

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

Comment 8 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Mmm... candy.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.

by Aykis16 on Sep 15, 2009 8:24 PM PDT reply actions  

I don't know if this team will be tough

But it will be tougher than last year. I can’t imagine that it is possible to field a team that was softer than last year.


“Hi. I’m Pete Chilcutt, and I endorsed this thread post.”

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Sep 15, 2009 10:42 PM PDT reply actions  

DOUBLEPOST: I put this in the other Nociono thread, but here it is anyway.

Go to this comment to get all the real trade machine links.

Nocioni for Jawai, Humphries and Shawne Williams
Noce plays all the minutes they would have played. The Mavericks have a team certified for their coach’s small ball, with Kidd passing to Terry, Howard, Marion, Noce and Dirk.
This trade would have been easier when Greg Buckner was around. The Kings do this trade because they’re all expirings, and maybe Dallas gives up a pick.

Nocioni for Scalabrini, Tony Allen and Bill Walker
Kings get a piece of cheap young talent, and Boston replaces all those minutes with a much better player. Maybe Boston throws in a pick.

Nocioni for Mike James and Javal McGee
Because McGee gives the Kings everything they need in the roster, and Washington needs to go deep in the playoffs this year and don’t have time for him to develop (and he’s behind Haywood and Blatche in the lineup). Also, Mike James is so bad he makes Randy Foye look good. Nociono backs up Butler and Jamison, and gets his 25 minutes that way.

Nociono for Ajinca and Raja Bell
Because it’s Larry Brown, and I love me some Raja Bell.

Nocioni for Finley, Bonner and Williams
And the Spurs give up a pick, another pick and the right to Tiago, because this is a DEAL! Nociono replaces Finley’s garbage minutes, and replaces Bonner with a lower percentage shooter who can actually defend and bang and hustle. I have no idea who this Williams is.

Nociono for Matt Harpring and Fresenko
Don’t say I don’t love you Aykis, because I do. And now you know it.

Victory is tasty.

by iashwash on Sep 16, 2009 1:14 AM PDT reply actions  

You don't love me

You spelled Fesenko wrong.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.

by Aykis16 on Sep 16, 2009 2:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Allow me to fill-out your definition of "tough" a bit

To me, toughness on the basketball court has to do with a couple of other things besides just defense. The players that I consider to be “tough” show me mental toughness (exhibited through their pride and their reaction to pressure) and physical toughness (playing through injury, etc.). There were two players on the Kings last year who I considered to be tough: Bobby Jackson and Francisco Garcia. I think most of you would agree with that assessment to some degree, and it doesn’t have very much to do with defense or being “bruising”.

The physical toughness with these guys is no mystery. Bobby doing his thing with a broken face, etc., and Cisco has played through more than his fair share of injuries himself. As for the mental toughness, both of these guys, whenever they’re on the court, are doing everything they can to win the game, whatever the particular situation may be. If we’re down by 6 with 8 seconds left, they’re gonna bust their ass getting those 6 points and they’ll fully believe they can do it until that final horn sounds.

One of my favorite moments from last season was during the only game I actually attended, Vlade’s retirement game against the Hornets. Towards the end of the game, Cisco hit a huge clutch three to tie the game or give us the lead or bring us within a couple points (I don’t remember which), except that the ref called his toe on the line (I believe they reviewed it to confirm). There wasn’t a doubt in my mind that the next time we had the ball, Cisco was shooting a damn three pointer. It didn’t matter if the other team scored or not, or how many we’re up or down by, he just hit a clutch three and had it taken away from him, and Cisco doesn’t like having things taken from him. You could see it on his face and I’m sure the Hornets knew it too, but it didn’t matter. Sure enough, Cisco got the ball, he shot a deep three, and he made it (he didn’t have to make it to show my point, that’s just icing on the cake). That’s a tough player.

So, the question at hand: will this year’s team be tougher than last year? The only answer, of course, is that we don’t know. We’ll see. But I definitely get the sense that we drafted some toughness. Evans, Casspi, and Brockman all appear to be guys who are highly driven and have a lot of pride. They also all appear to be physically tough, but that will reveal itself in time. In any case, I have high hopes.

"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.

by AnotherStupidSN on Sep 16, 2009 9:28 AM PDT reply actions  

I agree with your conclusion, but not your definitions

The Kings have tended to favor skill over athletic prowess in player acquisitions. That is not to say that the skilled cannot also be athletic and vice-versa (those are the allstars); but that the Kings have favored one characteristic over another as a tradeoff. And the choice makes sense with the Kings recent style of play—their system.
Hence physicality hasn’t been a trademark of Kings teams past. I would argue that physicality is typically a large part of (but neither necessary for, nor sufficient for)toughness—and perhaps defense as well—but I would not say the two are one-in-the-same.

by DustyG on Sep 16, 2009 11:36 AM PDT reply actions  

Mental toughness

needs to be addressed here. I think it is to some degree, but you have to talk about the games where the team just stopped trying as hard when they were down. They just gave up. Sure physicality is a must have for toughness, but what they really need is tenacity.

I think it has a lot to do with competitive spirit. Do they have it in them to take a blow, get back up, and take another. It takes somebody really competitive to get up time after time and keep going.

by MustangMBS on Sep 16, 2009 6:19 PM PDT reply actions  

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