30Q: What Kind of Kenny Thomas Trade Offers Will Pop Up?
by Tom Ziller on Sep 2, 2009 6:21 AM PDT
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Print30Q asks the important questions about the Kings all through September.
Kenny Thomas is the biggest trade chip the Kings have had in a long while ... and that's saying a lot. This is the team which has, in the past five seasons, traded Chris Webber (2005), Peja Stojakovic (2006), Mike Bibby (2008), Ron Artest (2008), Brad Miller (2009) and John Salmons (2009). That's a lot of salary, a lot of talent -- a lot of movement, most of which happened midseason.
But contracts are everything, and of those traded stars only Peja, Ron (both expirings) and Salmons (cheap) had nonoffensive contracts. Webber, Bibby and Miller were essentially salary dumps. Contract-wise, K-9's trade value is closest to Artest's -- Ron-Ron was a one-year rental for the highest bidder. Of course, Ron had ... outside considerations for any trade partner. Namely, he's one of the most polarizing players in the game, on and off the court.
Thomas doesn't have that sort of baggage ... or anything resemblign Artest's production. He is, for all intents and purposes, an $8.775 million piece of paper. This isn't to say he couldn't give a team (maybe even the Kings!) a solid 10 minutes a night. But at this point, no one is trading for Kenny Thomas for a solid 10 minutes a night. They will consider trading for Kenny Thomas for that expiring contract. For cap relief.
So who could want that cap relief? Can K-9 really (finally) be traded?
The salary cap/luxury tax situation for 2010-11 looks dire. The league has warned teams that the tax threshold could be as low as $61 million. Many teams have already committed more than $61 million in payroll in 2010-11. Not all of these teams will be contending for a championship. Further, some of these teams -- planning for a higher threshold -- will do everything they can to avoid the tax. These are the teams Kenny Thomas can help.
With the Kings holding on to roughly $5 million in cap space this season, the team will be able to take a player (or package of players) worth $17 million in 2009-10 salary in exchange for Thomas. That's the high end -- everything smaller is in play, too. It could be a $3 million player (such as a Rasual Butler). Or a $6 million player. Or a $10 million player. It's all in play.
The Magic, for example, have some $80 million in payroll tied up. This is a team that, until a few months ago, refused to cross the tax threshold. The team could be $20 million over the tax threshold in 2010-11. Isn't that a bit much? If it is, the Kings could give the Magic K-9's expiring contract in exchange for Mickael Pietrus or Marcin Gortat (assuming the Kings want either at their current payscales).
The Hornets are on the books for $67 million in 2010-11. The team seems (rightfully) unwilling to part with David West or Julian Wright. But would they give up Wright if a team (say, the Kings) agreed to take Morris Peterson's dead weight contract? That would slip the Hornets well under the lowest forecasted 2010-11 tax level, and it would give the Kings another small forward for their growing stable of small forwards.
And all this ignores the power of Summer 2010. Has the iffy financial forecasting turned teams off to the Summer of '10? Well, LeBron nor Wade nor Bosh has signed an extension. I think we're safe. Teams will keep trying to open up cap space on the off chance they can win the scraps of free agency. Heck, the Kings might be following this method as well. Kenny Thomas, for these teams concerned about cap space, is free money.
Teams will not decline free money, provided the "catch" is appropriate. Portland has options last year with Raef LaFrentz, but decided against mixing up the midseason crew too much. Geoff Petrie will have no such qualms (in large part because no one expects the Kings to contend, really). The Kings have options with the new Theo Ratliff, and we'll definitely see them play out on the rumor pages.
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Let it go.
Unless you can throw in another contract (beno). You just let it expire. Plain and simple.
i want draft picks!
Noce and K9 for a back-up defensive-minded big man and a high, high draft pick.
by Ice_9ine on Sep 2, 2009 8:22 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Utah has both of those
Since they have Fesenko and New York’s unprotected draft pick next year. And New York is going to suck.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
not bad
But we would still have too many small forwards. We could do a 3 way. Would somebody like Miami take AK-47 if we took Mark Blount and a second round pick?
by Ice_9ine on Sep 2, 2009 8:49 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Check out my below trade
Utah takes Noc and K-9 for Andrei and Fes. Solves a “Who plays SF problem” and “who backs up Spence problem”.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
I'm all for taking Kirilenko
see my below post.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Here are a few that I came up with and my rationale for each
Sacramento trades Kenny Thomas and Kevin Martin to Philadelphia for Samuel Dalembert and Andre Iguodala.
Philly’s currently 8 million over the cap, this relieves 6 million of that, takes away Dalembert’s ridiculous contract, and gives them more relief in the offseason next year. Martin is Martin. Could work well in Philadelphia with Brand and Holiday.
Sacramento does this because Iguodala is the better all-around player than Martin and is a year younger. Dalembert also gives you a legitimate backup to Spencer Hawes and a defensive threat. Also a massive expiring contract in 2011.
Sacramento trades Kenny Thomas and Andres Nocioni to Utah for Andrei Kirilenko and Kyrylo Fesenko
Utah does this because it gives them a veteran SF, who plays a very Jerry Sloanish style and because it gets them out of Kirilenko’s massive contract and provides 8 million dollars in relief next year.
Sacramento does this because Kirilenko is a quasi-All-Star, will be a massive expiring contract next year, and because they also get a backup for Spencer Hawes. Also because I like to bead dead horses.
Sacramento trades Kenny Thomas and Beno Udrih to Charlotte for Gerald Wallace and Desagna Diop
Charlotte does this for money. Because the owner wants to sell. He may as well save some money as well.
Sacramento does this because Wallace is a great player (albeit one that gets injured a lot) and turn Beno’s bad contract into Diop’s bad contract, but Diop will at least be able to effectively back up Spencer and play some defense.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
It might have to be just Kenny for AK47 and Fes
that way the Jazz get really tax relief
www.mancancook.net
Jazz might like getting Andres though as a player
Losing AK for nothing hurts their chances of winning. They don’t want to do that.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Not at the cost of winning
They’ve made that abundantly clear. Its why they haven’t done a deal for Boozer yet. They want more than just cap relief, they want value.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
No one wants a $12M backup
So, the first deal we swap Martin for Iguaodala and all it cost us is $5M this year and $12M next. No thanks.
The Kirilenko deal looks good for us, and better for Utah because they save the $8M next year. Plus, Utah loses Boozer next yr so that’s more than $20M coming off the books. But, they get a downgrade a SF while they have a surplus as PF. The Kings get an upgrade at SF for two yrs, which gives Omri time to develop, but it cost us $8M more next yr which would eat up all of our cap space.
I think it would be better for the Kings to substitute Boozer for Kirilenko and drop Noc from the deal.. Utah saves $5M this year plus another $5M in tax and eliminate the Boozer/Milsap delema. The KIngs get Fresenko and Boozer to fill out the 4/5 spots without giving up Noc. Plus get get back K9’s expiring contract money at the end of the season when Boozer’s contract expires.
My gut say the Kings hold on to K9 and let him expire rather than take on any bad contracts. They don’t seem to be willing to spend this years cap space, and having $8M more next yr probably looks really good to the Maloofs.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Honestly
I’m pretty sure I agree with you that the Maloofs might prefer just to let K-9 expire. Not saying I agree with it, but I think its whats going to happen.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
That might be the case
but I’m sure the Maloofs are more willing to spend a little extra if it pushes the rebuild along faster. A trade with the Jazz where they’re paying extra now but are able to land a second lottery pick might be incredibly appealing to them. Plus, I think a new situation will help Kirilinko out a ton. The guy has the talent to be a beast, but he’s been moping around and pouting for the last two years.
www.mancancook.net
I've always loved Kirilenko
if that trade goes thru I will be elated.
"Greg Ostertag is one of the finest centers in the history of Western Civilization." - Bill Walton
I don't like
the Philly trade. Iggy is only mildly better than K-mart but is paid a ton more money for it, & I think Reke would be better of with a shooter(Martin) than Iggy. I like Iggy as a player just not really with this group unless we could somehow keep Martin & put him at sf wich ain’t gona happen
by allbenji's on Sep 2, 2009 12:27 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I like Iggy as a player
But I have to agree with you that I think Tyreke works better with K-Mart than a player like Iggy.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
So, Aykis, is AK-47 gonna play the 4 or the 3 for us?
by Ice_9ine on Sep 2, 2009 9:09 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
4!!!
Dude got that contract playing the 4. Sloan moved him to the 3 and he hasn’t been the same since. Between the 4 and 5 there are plenty of backup minutes for JT. Plus, AK47 becomes a huge expiring next year.
www.mancancook.net
if AK is @ 4
And Garcia starts @ 3 we are unusually small. Do we dare start Donte? Could be an interesting experiment for a few games. Maybe he will succeed getting a couple starts?
by Ice_9ine on Sep 2, 2009 9:30 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
AK-47's contract is for 2 more years and doesn't expire until 2011-2012
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
he expires in 2011 actually
http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/jazz.jsp
By “next year” i meant next season, or the one after this upcoming one.
www.mancancook.net
So you agree, his contract is for 2 more yrs. This year and next yr
My point is that he’ll be due $10M more than Noc next yr. Not this coming season, but the season after this season which is the 2011/2012 season which is what I originally posted.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Umm... no
this upcoming season is the 2009-10 season. The following season would be 2010-11. So yes, he does have two years left. Two years from 2009 is 2011. If it ended in the 2011-12 season he’d have 3 years left. This concludes today’s math lesson
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Sep 2, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
So, you were wrong
When you wrote
Plus, AK47 becomes a huge expiring next year.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Oh my God
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Sep 3, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Funny
Actually he was not wrong.
AK makes 16+ mil for 09-10(this) season and makes 17+ mill for 10-11(next) season and then his contract expires, making it a huge expiring contract next year.
Sorry for jumping in here, but you guys seem to be going in circles.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Sep 3, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions
What do the Kings need?
One thing that is obvious is talent. Duh. No, I mean an abundant amount of talented players that could be used for trade. Currently, all the talented players are need here. Basicly, our best trading chips are Noc, Cisco & Beno. With Cisco being the least dispensible because we don’t have any other backup for Martin, assuming Evans sees extended minutes at the 1.
So, my first choice would be to trade K9 for young talent & draft picks. Not, 2nd round or late 1st round picks but lottery picks. Picks that have a ligitamate chance of developing into a solid player. Because after all, GP’s greatest talent is finding good talent in the draft.
So, what position should we concentrate on as far as improving the team. All of them. There isn’t one position on this team where we can say that we have our starter for the next 5 years. Certainly, Evans, Martin, or Hawes look like they could. But if Evans turns out to be a better 2 than 1, we might only have 2 positions filled or none.
Whether JT’s greatest potential is at the 4 or 5, starter or backup is still unkown. The same with Donte. Is he a 3 or 4, starter or backup or bench player is yet to be determined. But, the final makeup of this team might not be determined by how our youth develops, but by what kind of additional youth we can add.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
We don't need more picks!
This may be an unpopular sentiment, but we have guys with less than three years of experience starting at three of our four positions, and backing up more. Plus we’ll have a top pick next year. No more trades for picks!
What we need to do is wait. Find out which of our young guys are truely playoff caliber starters and which are not. We keep talking about back-ups. But realistically, much as I love them, are Hawes, JT, and Evans all really the starters that will take us to the playoffs and beyond? The odds say know. In GP we trust, but look at our cahmionship teams in teh past and tell me how many playoff starters we drafted.
If we can get a player who will start at the three, four, or five for K-9. We make the deal and don’t look back.
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
If we can trade Kenny Thomas for a lottery pick
I don’t see how that’s not a win-win situation. Next year’s draft especially is supposed to be very strong. Realistically, we’ll probably be in the bottom 3 of the league again unless something drastic happens. So is New York. And Utah has New York’s pick. Unprotected. And the projected top player in the next draft is a point guard. Something Utah doesn’t need one bit.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Utah doesn't need the number one pick?
Somehow I think they might disagree with you. I understand your point that they have Deron, but I think they’d manage to find a way to do something with the #1 pick. My point is that except for Griffin this year, not many teams would have traded a proven starter for any of the picks. Even the lottery is, well a lottery, and we are predicted to be the worst team in the NBA, again. So our pick will be good. Are you really telling me you want to see a team consisiting of Hawes, JT, Evans, and two more rookies? I don’t. I’m all for youth. But there is a time when you need to start picking from known pieces that will fill spots.
Am I saying that I wouldn’t trade K9 for a guaranteed top three pick? No. But as we can all testify, there is no such thing even when the season is over. If I am offered another lottery pick or a guy I know can start at the three for or five for a playoff caliber team, I take the starter every time.
Ironically, the Jazz would be a team where I would be looking for a draft pick. Because they already have the starters to build around.
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
I guess you're right
And they could probably fetch something real nice for that pick. Washington cleared some junk players and the #5 in this years draft for Mike Miller and Randy Foye.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Which makes them look pretty smart
I’m hoping K9’s expiring is increasing in value as the tax cap comes down, but we’ll see.
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
True but
all of the players on our team will have 1 year more experience by then. At some point we will have to recognize these young players as veterans.
I still think of Martin as young but really he is in the prime of his career.
Exactly right
In the 2010/2011 season, Hawes will be entering his 4th season and JT his 3rd. Depending on how he develops Evans could be an All-Star by then. Martin, Garcia & Noc won’t be rookies.
But, tell me which team is going to give up a star for K9’s EC or even a starter. History tells us that the majority of players make their appearance in the All-Star game with the team that drafted them. Yes, 30% of today’s All-Star caliber players arrived with their current team by way of trades. But, as I said in my original post, we don’t have the talent we can afford to trade.
There are plenty of excellent starting players that are entering their 2nd yr. I’ll trust GP to find them. When we have starters and a bench that can take us to the 2nd round of the playoffs, then it’s time to start trading for the Vet who’s going to put you over the top. Right now we need to acquire as much talent as we can, as fast as we can, and as cheaply as we can. Draft them.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
If the NBA is anything like the Mock GM league and the trades I was offered as Kings GM
then yes, a KTEC9 trade is certainly possible and Geoff Petrie is probably having his inbox flooded with more offers than he wants to deal with.
Probably a lot crap offers though
from people like me looking to rip him off eh?
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Anyone taking KT will have to take Beno
And the Kings probably won’t get anything to help the team unless another team gets desperate
If Boozer comes off @ 20 mill next year, why would they feel a need to get rid of more salary? Utah is always in the playoffs and the biggest stars that will be available in FA won’t go to Utah. And if they do happen to get a FA, AK offers them sign-and-trade
Only teams with lots of money to spend will trade for an expiring contract (i.e. NY, Chic, LA)… We’ll have to wait and see what NYs final contracts (Lee and Nate) will be before we can get too excited about parting w/ KT
(A KT for Nate Robinson trade might be a real possibilty)
Just say no to KT for Nate Rob
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
All trade scenarios involving the Poodle...
Need to be package deals with either Noc or Beno. Otherwise we should just let his contract expire. We put too much stock in getting something for our expirings and that’s when we get saddled with unsavory contracts like Noc’s.
If we can get something that makes sense, we should go for it, but if we’re just trading for the sake of getting something for an expiring then we should just let him come off the books and take a chance on a young, hungry backup PG like Beno was a few years back before we took away his incentive to try with a long term deal.
Dip til I rip
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by Muff209 on Sep 2, 2009 11:38 AM PDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I'll go ahead and agree with this
Beno or Noc need to be packaged with K-9, otherwise let him expire and we have a decent amount of money to play with next summer. Might actually get someone decent.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
I'm with Muff
In part because I agree with him, and in part because I like saying “I’m with Muff!”
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What about something like this:
I’m not saying this one is doable, just an example.
A team that is over the tax threshold, under-performs this season and that feels it might lose it’s top FA, dumps salary in exchange for the bird right to said FA, in this example saving 5+ mil in luxury tax.
Bosh is an unlikely example, and I’m not that into Boozer, but something along those lines could be available IMO.
It could even be for an expiring that we don’t want to try to resign, but we trade say 10 million for 6 million in expirings and cash(to offset our increased salary) and a draft pick.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Sep 2, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, so just like the Mock GM game?
Actually, I can’t remember who offered me Jeffries for Scola, Lowry, and Battier. But I got a good laugh out of that one.
Dip til I rip
http://reclaimingthetitle.wordpress.com
by Muff209 on Sep 2, 2009 6:53 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Probably me
I bought his ass out eventually though.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
It had to have been you
because ever since you got Bosh you’ve been trying to rip everybody off!
www.mancancook.net
What is this league and how can I play?
It sounds pretty fun and I love to rip people off!!!
I'm a limousine-riding, jet-flying, kiss-stealing, wheeling-dealing son of a gun!!! Wooooo!!!
by Noble_Bloodlines on Sep 3, 2009 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions
i dont know what to do with K9
But I do know that the Hawks passed up on Garret Siler AND Courtney Sims, to back-up centers that the Kings could use.
Maybe we sign one more young big who can play CENTER and then just let K9 expire or trade him at the deadline to someone who wants Noce and/or Beno.
Houston may feel up to ditching T-Mac if they are in position for one of the last 2 playoff spots and he is still not 100%. Whether they would want K9 or not is dubious, but they might take a still productive Noc and a combo of Beno/Sergio/Kenny/even Mays.
If we kept K9 AND got T-Mac, we would have 28 Million in expirings. Woohoo!
by Ice_9ine on Sep 2, 2009 8:56 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I think that the kings will probably be able to trade Kenny K9 Thomas for BronBron. Although, the cavs might be looking for a little bit more, so it is quite possible that they could also demand the help of our good unibrow-ed friend Quincy Douby. Just our luck, the reason we can’t get LeBron in sacremento is because we don’t have Douby. But maybe a quick sign-and-trade will do the trick, though to make the salaries match, we will have to sign Douby to an estimated 10 million dollar/year contract, which would make Thomas and Douby, the most underpayed tandem in NBA history.
by samag333 on Sep 2, 2009 11:42 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
IMO...
The Kings need to FIND minutes for K9… Sounds crazy I know.
But I figure it like this: He can rebound. So if you ask me who should go in when we need boards (K9 or Brockman) I say Kenny Thomas.
The trade won’t come until mid-season, so why not get his value up? If he plays OK, teams may be more eager to make a deal knowing he can burn some minutes AND save $$$$ at the end of the season.
I'm a limousine-riding, jet-flying, kiss-stealing, wheeling-dealing son of a gun!!! Wooooo!!!
by Noble_Bloodlines on Sep 3, 2009 8:16 AM PDT reply actions
We don't need to get his value as a player up.
Because his only value to any team at this point is as an expiring. Playing him to show what he can do won’t make any team give us more for him.
The draft lottery has reinforced my belief that there are not enough bad words in the English language.
by LeaguePassAddict on Sep 4, 2009 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
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