The Jose Calderon-Kevin Martin Rumors Make No Sense
by Tom Ziller on Jan 15, 2010 6:51 AM PST
in Free Agency/Trades
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PrintChad Ford published a list of 25 players most likely to be traded, and the only King on the list is Kenny Thomas. But another passage of the column has Raptors fans drooling, Kings fans apoplectic, and the entire population of those who care completely confused.
In the entry on Jose Calderon, Ford writes:
There have been rumblings of a Calderon-Kevin Martin swap. The move would give the Raptors a lot of offensive firepower, but it would also cement their status as one of the worst defensive teams ever.
Calderon is due $37.5 million through 2013. Martin is due $44 million over that same span. No one -- no one -- would argue Calderon is worth more than Martin, and few would argue Calderon at $37.5 million over four years is worth more than Martin for $44 million. It's a completely unbalanced swap.
Unbalanced swaps happen, sure. But that comes when a team is desperate to save money (the Kings would save almost nothing on an annual basis), when they absolutely need to get rid of a problem player (umm ...) or when they have a devastating positional need. No matter what Chad Ford, John Hollinger and Bill Simmons believe, the Kings have a point guard. The overwhelming leader in the Rookie of the Year race. A 20-5-5 player. A future All-Star. A potential future MVP candidate. We have a point guard, y'all.
Even if you think Tyreke Evans will wake up someday and announce he is no longer a point guard, or if you think Paul Westphal will be hypnotized by some urban witch doctor and decide Evans is no longer a point guard, the team has Beno Udrih and Sergio Rodriguez. Udrih is owed $26.6 million through 2013, some $11 million gross less than Calderon. Jose is the better point guard, sure. But if you have Beno, do you need a Calderon? Finally, Sergio is a restricted free agent this summer. If the Kings decided they absolutely needed to play Evans at the two -- something they have never broached, not once, nor have they needed to -- they could likely keep Rodriguez cheaply. Surely, Beno+Sergio would cost less than Calderon ... and it wouldn't involve giving up one of the best scorers in the league!
In conclusion, this trade rumor is nonsensical. Don't blame Ford -- and really, I don't want this thread to become a Ford/ESPN hatefest, please don't sink to that -- as he has to report the rumors he hears. Ford is just doing his job. But just know that unless Geoff Petrie had a secret brain transplant in which a chunk of granite was embedded in his skull, this ain't happening. Ain't happening.
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And, if I may ...
… the only player coming back in straight-up two-team swap which sends Martin to Toronto is a bit taller, a bit darker and a bit more talented.
Yes indeed
I love Calderon, I really do. But unless we’ve become the west coast version of the Minnesota Timberwolves then this ain’t happening.
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
And even then...
..the point of acquiring Bosh would be to pair him with Martin and Evans. If Bosh came to sacto, I see Thompson, Greene, Thomas and our somewhat protected 1st going to Toronto. Not Kevin Martin.
And even then...
..the point of acquiring Bosh would be to pair him with Martin and Evans. If Bosh came to sacto, I see Thompson, Greene, Thomas and our somewhat protected 1st going to Toronto. Not Kevin Martin.
It was an absurd idea on the face of it
I’m not even interested in debating it.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 15, 2010 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
Trying to respect the request to not bash Ford but...
he deserves a little. I agree to a certain extent he is just doing his job, and shouldn’t be berated for that.
But, he does editorialize a fair amount, either passing on opinions or stating his own, and when he does so, he doesn’t seem to ever pass up the chance to bash the Kings players and front office. He doesn’t come off as a national guy with that kind of perspective as it relates to the Kings, he always seems like he has an axe to grind, and honestly isn’t very sudtle about it.
Free Omri...trade.Noc.
by ForThree on Jan 15, 2010 6:59 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Everytime some analyst suggets acquiring a ball dominating/facilitating PG
when the team has a bona fide stud who already dominates the ball, god kills a kitten.
There now I've met the 75 word count. -pookeyguru
Please, spay and neuter your pets!
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
by Ice_9ine on Jan 15, 2010 8:26 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Was Barker filing those chompers?
Definitely got some Grandpa Munster to his look… Old bastard could still probably whoop my ass though.
Sound the trumpets, Raise the drawbridge, and drop the Oldsmobile
Exactly, what the team needs in the backcourt next to Evans...
…is a SHOOTER. What is Kevin Martin? One of the best deep threats in the entire league. There’s no purpose in moving K$ at this point, none.
This must be a Toronto wish-list trade rumor
I’m a fan or Calderon and I love his game, but there is no way that this is a balanced trade.
Calderon seems a bit injury-prone too. He doesn’t miss a ton of games, but always seems to be playing with some kind of muscle strain that limits his minutes and production. Last year, it was his hamstring, and this year it was his groin I believe. I am only aware of this because I drafted him in my fantasy basketball league two years in a row now.
can anyone name the PG for the Chicago Bulls 1995-96 championship team that averaged at least 5 apg?
NO PG averaged more than 4 apg for this team that won 72 games..Point is that players when championships not the position they play!
None of the elite teams has a "true" PG do they?
Rondo maybe. I don’t know if he is as much a pass-first player or a poor shooter. That has to be awesome running down court and seeing KG, Pierce and Allen as your options.
I could average 5 apg passing to those guys
and I am 5’8 overweight and cant dribble drive to my left or right! NaPG
4 of the top 5 teams in the west do
Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups.
The #1 team in the West is the Lakers. There SG, some guy named Kobe, leads the team is assist 4.5 (reke avg 4.9) from the SG position. I guess he should be playing PG too.
Should Pippen have been playing PG just bc he led the team avg 6 asst?
I'd argue that Billups is as well
Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to go add up the titles that Kidd and Nash have won.
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
I keep forgetting that Phoenix and Dallas are good this year
If I remember right, Billups was the poster-child for combo guards when he came into the league.
Pippen avg 20pts 6ast 5rebs kinda like Reke 20-5-5
Just because you avg 5 ast doesn’t mean you have to do it from the PG position. The role of a PG is to make people better and quite frankly Reke doesn’t. Don’t get me wrong…he’s awesome but he’s a SG
But, are you seriously referring to the Bulls team that had 3 of the NBA 50 greatest players?: Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman. And arguably the greatest coach in NBA history. How do we match up with them, we don’t.
We would look more like them if we Traded Spence/K9 for Al Jefferson (our Rodman w/offensive). Rodman avg 14.9 rebs that season. AJ avg 15 rebs last 5 games. Only difference is AJ added 22 points/game with the rebs and Rodman avg 5pts. per season
If we trade Sergio/Noc for Calderon we get a better version of Ron Harper. Beno coming off the bench provides Steve Kerr-Like clutch 3pt shooting with more intangibles. I’d argue that Jose/Beno is a better PG combo than Harper/Kerr. I’d draft Dyson 2nd rd which would be a better version of Caffey without the child support stress.
Kmart is our 1st option Jordan like player. He no Jordan but he was averaging 30. I’d start him at the SF, due to his lack of defensive ability. Easier to mask it at the 3 rather than the 2.
Reke would play SG that handles the ball alot like jordan, but post Pippen numbers as our second option shooter. Garcia gives us depth the bulls didn’t have.
Omri becomes our foreigner instant offensive from the bench Kukoc.
JT is Luc Longley with athleticism. Hilton is lovable John Salley in the earlier years with more energy athletism. Brockman is Wennington and Dickey Simpkins. Also, draft P. Patterson with 1st rd pick for more depth. And pick up B Haywood in FA. Haywood+AJ>Rodman
Recap:
Starting Lineup: PG-Calderon, SG-Reke, SF-Kmart, PF-JT, C-Jefferson
Bench: PG-Beno, SG-Garcia, SF-Omri, PF-Brockman, C-Haywood
3rd String: PG-Dyson, SF-Donte, PF- Patterson, C-Hilton
- For those of you who can’t imagine Reke not playing PG, you’d be amazed how much his defense with improve when he’s getting set up with easy buckets and not exerting the most effort on the offensive end.
No a GOOD point guard...
….makes bad players look good. If you have a team that has good players all-around, they do make other betters naturally.
For you to say Evans hasn’t made anyone else around him better, look no further than Beno FRICKIN’ Udrih. The guy looks like a border-line star this year, next to Tyreke.
Yes
Let’s take away the incredible mismatch that Tyreke presents to defenses and move him to the two, where his size will be neutralized a bit more.
Unfortunately, your brain seems to be so wrapped into this inane idea of what makes a traditional point guard. Tyreke is a different animal – and while his game doesn’t remind me wholly of Magic Johnson, the fact that he has a physical advantage over the guys he’s playing against certainly does.
And your brilliant idea is to remove that advantage?
Tyreke is a good enough ball handler for the position, he just needs some time (and a healthy Kevin Martin won’t hurt) to learn his craft. The kid has played 33 games, and he’s progressing just fine at the point guard position.
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
I have a weird feeling
That he’s not going to get it Otis. No matter how nice everyone explains it. Sammy, you finally got some company
The future begins now...
Ouch!
DaUconn you need to listen to what people are saying not just keep repeating the same stuff. You want to be taken serious then take those replying to you serious.
I wouldn't say JT has regressed
despite his current funk. It seems like we recently had a vote/discussion about whether Hawes has indeed regresssed. Pretty strong cases were made both ways whether he has regressed or he has just failed to progress as much as anticipated. The one area that he is noticably worse was defensive rebounds.
I would say that the other players on the team seem to disagree with your opinion that Reke doesn’t make their jobs easier. Greene, Udrih, Casspi, JT and Hawes all seem to like playing with him.
On a side note, I was thinking that his assist numbers may be lower than other PG because he has such good passers around him. I was watching highlights where he would penetrate and dish to an open Udrih who would pass to an even more open Noc; or pass to Hawes who would pass on an 18 footer to hit another cutter or someone wide open for a three. Just a thought.
are you actually a Kings fan?
This team is not the Chicago Bulls. Why can’t we just let them work out their own identity?
The team as it is now has not even played together for one full season. Let’s just wait before deciding what each player’s roles are and who we are gonna draft.
Also, I don’t care what you say, Jose Calderon is not the missing piece. Toronto doesn’t even want him. They play an undersized shoot-first guard named Jarret Jack at the point. Calderon comes off the bench.
Neither is Al Jefferson the answer. He is a good young player but a volume shooter and a marginal defender.
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
by Ice_9ine on Jan 15, 2010 12:26 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Why? B/C you have the 3 worst record in the West
To be 100% honest, I just became a Kings fan a week ago when you guys picked up Hilton. I follow all former UCONN players. My allegiance is to UCONN. I am a Hornets fan, Grizz fan, Detroit fan, Wizard fan, Nets fan, and now a die-hard Kings fan. UCONN players always improve a squad. I have researched the Kings, but have admittedly not seen as much live games as most of you. I watched the ORL game and at times saw the Kings with only 1 black guy on the court for long stretches. Not to play the race card, but this formula hasn’t worked since the 70’s Celtics. Its like watching Hoosiers. I kept waiting for a guy to shoot his free throws underhand.
Never a good start...
Not to play the race card, but…
Is there a point to any of this?
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jan 15, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions
uhh you just did pull the race card!
who gives a rat-fuck what color a player is, and for that matter who cares what the position is that they play it is about players playing as a team and the combo of PLAYERS not positions that they play that delivers wins. And to say that the Kings would be better off with a backcourt of Tyreke and Calderon vs Tyreke and Martin is probably a bit farfetched.
you just said it, You wouldn't follow the kings if there was no armstrong
if you knew anything about the kings, you would not be posting this
"Oh boy! If you don't like that you don't like Kings basketball"-Peaches
He he
hehehe… sounds like you’ve watched one Kings game all year, yet insist that Tyreke can’t play point guard. Bill Simmons much?
by henryclemente on Jan 15, 2010 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
This explains it all
To be 100% honest, I just became a Kings fan a week ago when you guys picked up Hilton.
You know nothing about this team. I suggest you tach some games and read around before trying to make statements about this team
The future begins now...
I am flagging this as inappropriate.
I don’t think that this kind of talk has any place here.
at times saw the Kings with only 1 black guy on the court for long stretches. Not to play the race card,
Racism defined
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn:
“the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism:
“Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent …”
Racist?...I'm Black
I just made an observation. I’m not saying Black players are better, just bc there Black. (ex. Hilton isn’t better than Dirk). But this team does lack a level of athleticism. Hilton is more athletic than Dirk
It was racist.
And, yes, that is exactly what you were saying. That black players are better or maybe it was just more athletic. Same difference. It was basing the ability to play on race and not talent. That is racism and just because somebody is black does not mean they can’t be racist. Racism is an equal opportunity nastiness. Your post was extremely offensive.
talent
Bibby wasn’t a traditional point guard when he was here playing with Webb and Vlade, but he worked really well with Doug Christie. I can’t see why matching Tyreke up with another player who has complementary talents wouldn’t work here.
Chad Ford can go to H-E-double hockey sticks!
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
by Ice_9ine on Jan 15, 2010 8:28 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Martin
I am not opposed to trading Martin for the right pieces. No way is Toronto trading Bosh for Martin. I love Martin when he is healthy. However, the one piece of info that I believe that is constantly overlooked on Martin is his injury proneness. He has missed 30 games this year, and 20-25 games the last two years. That needs to be taken into account when evaluating Martin’s trade value.
Going forward can you say that Martin will miss 20-30 games next year?. No way can you say that. But if I am a GM of another team (and don’t think GP does not think about it) you have to take Martin’s injury history into consideration if you consider trading for him.
Finally, the reason Martin’s name keeps coming up is not that me or anyone else wants to trade Martin just for the sake of trading him. It is that our post game blows. Martin is the one of a few pieces that other teams want. I can not see GP trading Evans or Casspi. Everyone else could be moved for the right pieces. Martin is just one of our better pieces whose contract is reasonable and if traded may make our interior game better.
by noreboundsnorings on Jan 15, 2010 8:34 AM PST reply actions
I like Calderon
But this is the depths of absurdity. Martin is far better than Calderon, if the Kings are going to trade Martin it should be for a big man, and one of these days our national sportswriters will wake up and realize that Evans is one of the greatest mismatches at PG the league has seen in a long time.
I know we’re not supposed to bag on Chad Ford, but there are two ways of reporting a rumor.
Option 1: “I have heard rumors of a Calderon/Martin swap, but it’s hard to see how that makes sense for the Kings.”
Option 2: “I have heard rumors of a Calderon/Martin swap, which I will take 100% completely seriously while not even noticing that it doesn’t make sense.”
Chad Ford always goes for Option 2.
Exactly
This keeps happening. There was a “rumor” a while back that the Rockets were interested in trading McGrady for Martin. Those reporting such rumors apparently don’t even think about whether the Kings have any incentive to do such a deal. It’s complete nonsense, as if the Kings’ only purpose in the league is to make other teams better by unloading talented players for garbage. Not that Calderon is garbage, but he does not belong in the same conversation as Martin.
Count me as totally unimpressed by Ford and the other reporters of totally half-assed rumors.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jan 15, 2010 9:23 AM PST up reply actions
I guess in their defense
Between the Artest trade, Bibby trade and Miller/Salmons trade we kind of have been unloading talented players for their garbage (Donte is the exception).
But we’re totally done with that now! I think. I hope.
True, but
Bibby and Miller were older guys who were hugely overpaid and clearly had no future with the team. Ron belongs in a different category: not overpaid but a bomb waiting to go off. In neither case does the logic apply to Kevin. And there is just no rationale at all behind the Calderon rumor because it’s a downgrade in talent for a position we don’t need and it provides no salary relief to speak of. Total nonsense.
I know you know all this. My point is that there is no point in reporting a rumor if it is nonsensical on its face. Ford’s credibility is zero on this thing.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jan 15, 2010 10:37 AM PST up reply actions
The godfather of str writes an article on something I broke on the thread?
I feel like I’ve finally arrived!(probobly not) but still cool!
Sergio Rodriguez = Jose Calderon - a consistent 3 point shot
and at 20% the cost. Give me Sergio 10x’s out of 10.
ESPN
needs to stop letting their guys play around with the trade machine. That’s our job as fans … to throw stupid trades out there.
58-14 Beats 44-6!!
In conclusion, this trade rumor is nonsensical. Don’t blame Ford — and really, I don’t want this thread to become a Ford/ESPN hatefest, please don’t sink to that — as he has to report the rumors he hears. Ford is just doing his job. But just know that unless Geoff Petrie had a secret brain transplant in which a chunk of granite was embedded in his skull, this ain’t happening. Ain’t happening.
2 things here.
The first is, oh yes, I can very much blame Ford for not doing his job. Part of doing his job is recognizing that, in fact, Tyreke Evans is a PG. So, yes, I can blame Ford for not knowing that if it isn’t the classy thing to do. There’s a saying. I think it goes along like this: Fuck class.
On the other hand, getting worked up because Chad Ford doesn’t understand the NBA, it’s his job to report rumors (which do bring attention to the Kings in a perverse way), and I got better things to do (attend class for instance, peel onions, put 2 shelves in my new bookcase in, etc. etc.).
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
I agree Pookey-
I listened to Ford and Simmons talk up the “hot stove” via podcast and it was a joke. He doesn’t just throw the rumors out there, he makes statements like “I definitely think a Bosh for Bynum deal will happen before the deadline” and “The Kings will trade Martin before the deadline because his value has never been higher”. We know a Bosh for Bynum trade is impossible because of the NBA collective bargaining agreement- why doesn’t he? We know that Martin has missed most of the season and it isn’t possible that his trade value is at it’s height, so why doesn’t he?
Reporting rumors are one thing but he should be dispelling rumors without merit by using even a cursory understanding of the CBA which I am starting to believe he does not have.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
How about something like this:
Trade Machine. Lakers also send cash to cover the salary difference over the rest of the year, and probably a pick.
Not that I disagree with any of your points about Ford.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Jan 15, 2010 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
If we see a trade of some sort I think it will indicate
the faith Petrie and the Maloofs have on the long term health of Kevin. If they really doubt his durability in this league (from year to year) I could see them taking an "unbalanced trade-offer from another team. I for one hope the major injury bug is in the rear view mirror, but for every new injury that occurs to Kevin the less his value becomes.
Ba-da
Absurdity...................nbrans called it
when I read Ford’s piece last night I just read it and passed on. It is ludicrous on it’s face, it makes no sense and even for the national media this is a totally nonsensical trade idea.
Besides Bosh, Boozer,Kobe and LBJ, Kevin Martin is the next highest semi big name mentioned in trade proposals in the national media. Ford’s trade idea with the Raps doesn’t rise to the asinine trade thread level. LTTG would ban whoever came up this idea, they would be ridiculed. An 11th grader from Boise on Bill Ingram’s chat would be embarrassed to post this idea with a straight face.
The national media is largely clueless when it comes to the Kings and I suspect every other NBA team. Support your local blogger. There are so many good basketball blogs and websites that there is no reason to get hung up on tools and fools who have been lucky (or at one time good enough) to get picked up by ESPN or the like.
"I make love to pressure" - Stephen Jackson
Wait...what?
When are Kobe and Lebron ever mentioned in trade proposals? Perhaps I missed something there.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Jan 15, 2010 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
More on Ford
Simmons and Chad were talking about a Bosh for Bynam possible deal and Chad said thats the best teal Toronto could get. I thought really, Bynam is often injured and some what inconsistant, and Bosh is a very good player, so the Lakers would win the title pretty much for as long as Kobe stays healthy and Toronto gets an enigma. I thought both parties would be capable of looking out of both eyes
I actually think that wouldnt be a bad deal for Toronto
Way better for the Lakers. But the Lakers are spending so much money on the players they have, I would wonder if Bosh would still leave for money they wouldn’t pay.
If they want Bosh in a sign and trade, I make them take Hedo too for Bynum and Odom.
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
by Ice_9ine on Jan 15, 2010 11:50 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Can we swap Ford for TZ
in a Cash for Clunkers type deal?
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
No
I meant we give Ford to the Government to “dispose” of and TZ runs ESPN instead. Each day a new Kings player would be the face of ESPN. Kobe could hit a gamewinner and he’ll have Sean May’s pic up.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Sorry Ford, but you need to post in the Asinine trade thread
…I’m almost expecting him to put in a bunch of exclamation points after each of his posts, now.
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