Acknowledgement, and Resolution
by Tom Ziller on Jan 19, 2010 5:27 AM PST
in Commentary
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PrintI know that I'm considered to be in the tank for Kevin Martin. This blog started just as Kevin Martin rose from anonymity to stardom. Save for a few minor rookie moments, this blog has basically covered every day of Martin as a King, Martin as an NBA player. And Martin -- undersung for so long, worthy and desperate for deeper inspection -- is the perfect blogger vessel. I could point out things about Martin most non-Kings fans would never see. I could go into deep detail about facets of his game, and it'd be new to 90 percent of the population. If I say something about Tyreke Evans? Well, everyone watches Tyreke Evans. It's hard to be original talking about the same thing as everyone else.
I feel comfortable saying that over the past 4-1/2 years, I've become the blog world's Kevin Martin expert. Martin has made it easy -- don't get me wrong. I mean, there's a reason I'm not the blog world's, er, Quincy Douby expert. (Or am I?) Martin has become a veritable star, and I've been covering him like a beat for almost five years. There's no denying that he gets more basketball leeway from me, more deference when his play is off. That critics of Martin get a more critical reaction from me, and obviously others here who have been around and feel the same way.
***
That said, Martin has been back three games. In Game 1, he was easily the second best King -- only he and Jason Thompson played well. In Game 2, he was easily the best or second best King -- only he and Tyreke Evans played well. In Game 3, he didn't play well, and the team almost completed a 24-point comeback without him on the court.
Everyone is in such a rush to declare this or that, with "this" the impending doom of Martin as a King and "that" the greatest backcourt in the history of basketball. "This" nor "that" is likely real, or even close. The whole world is gray. Maybe Martin-Evans doesn't work as well as hoped. Maybe Martin-Evans works just fine. I would say that through three games, we don't know. I would say we need time for observation. If it turns out this experiment has failed, then move to pursuance. Until then, try to enjoy the show.
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Thank you Ziller
I know its hard day-in, day-out to watch these games and be patient. And we’re all used to the patented Kevin explosion game coming back from injury (something we’ve gotten to see an unfortunate amount of), but if there ever was a time to be patient its right now.
Most of us were here this time last year, waiting for the Miller/Salmons trade, trying to find a reason to be hopeful (thank God for JT those days). We’ve been ridiculously fortunate, one year has passed, and we have so many more reasons to be hopeful than last year. But so many want to skip the next two years and get to the end game.
Its not going to happen like that. Casspi’s going to struggle some, hell even Tyreke is going to struggle. Our frontcourt is alternately one of two guys playing well or a disasterous wasteland of turnovers, missed jumpers and no defensive rebounds.
Everyone please step back a step or two and watch the growth, we have so much to be excited about:
Tyreke is the hope for being good, that’s already on him, that pressure. He knows it, everyone knows it. The way he’s handled it to date is a tremendous credit to him, give him some support, he needs to grow into being the Star and not let it go to his head. Its a lot to ask, but he’s been great so far.
Omri is adjusting, he’ll get there. He’s not going to shoot 45% from deep, so there’s some rough moments ahead, but he wants it real badly. Talented guys with that desire generally turn out pretty well.
How about Donte? We wondered over the summer if he had an NBA career ahead of him. Its clear now he does; the question is, is he a role player or is he more than that? No one knows, but he’s already a spotty excellent defender, and when he’s open he makes 3’s. Continuing development of those two skills combined with his athleticism means a very, very long NBA career if he can accept a role. And who knows, there’s still a legit chance he’ll be more than that.
Our young bigs may end up both being role players on a good team. We obviously need help inside. But there’s still plenty of chance one or both grow into at least NBA average starters.
Which brings me to my actual point, Kevin. I watched all three games since he came back, and he is truly making an effort to make everyone else comfortable. In the first half yesterday, we saw deferential Kevin, moving the ball along, and taking open shots, of which he missed a ton. Kevin went out of his way to try to get Casspi shots and our big guys involved. It turns out it was a disaster, but he’s obviously a team guy. He’s also been playing hard on defense and rebounding; there’s certainly room for improvement, but the effort is there
I remember yesterday, Tyreke ran screen/roll on one side of the floor and started driving, Kevin’s guy took a couple steps toward the paint , Tyreke whipped the ball cross court for an open 3 for Kevin that he missed.
Martin’s been missing shots since he came back, but he and Tyreke are really working to figure it out, and you can see the mutual respect. The one thing on this team over time I’m not worried about is Kevin Martin making open shots.
Patience everyone please, and as Ziller said enjoy watching these guys. There’s so much talent out there now, and yes we need more, but watching these guys grow into a team should be pretty fun.
Free Omri...trade.Noc.
by ForThree on Jan 19, 2010 5:56 AM PST reply actions 11 recs
preaching to the choir
for most of us. Wise words said well. Rec’d.
by betweentheeyes on Jan 19, 2010 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
Amen Brother 4-3
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Last game was fatigue...
Kevin was very tired the last game. He missed shots because he didn’t have much left and got no lift on his shots. Players who are tired don’t get enough lift from their legs.
Many bemoaned the choice of starting Desmond Mason because he had no outside shot. The opposing team just left him and doubled down on covering Tyreke. Now we have an outside shooter that can’t be left in the game and once he is up to his Speedy self we are going to do much better.
Excuse #1...
Emerges. What was all that talk going around about him being in basketball shape upon his return? He had wrist surgery! And last time I played Operation, the wrist bone was not connected to any of the leg bones. I know where you stand on Kevin Martin and I will let you sit on that since I don’t want to get into any of the BS, but you’ve got to come up with a better reason than fatigue and a lack of legs. At least gear the fatigue to his wrist…
There will be a SammyP wherever you go. But don't worry, it scared me at first too.
As someone who played D1 college basketball
I can’t tell you how wrong you are (but I’ll try). As W_T_C said below, there is no replacemt for gametime minutes. I am not saying it would be excusable for him to be in Shaq-style preseason shape, but nothing can prepare your legs for the actual game.
Lest we forget, it was the 3rd game (all roadies) in four days. All players are a little more tired then.
Having said all that, I don’t think any lack of wins cam be directed toward fatigue. That was only the 3rd game back, it’s going to take a few weeks to actually see what we have. Let the pot stew, if you will.
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Jan 19, 2010 9:16 AM PST up reply actions
Couple questions for you there Sammy.
I don’t want to crap in you Wheaties, but WTF:
1) Do you know anything about the mechanics of shooting? I would hope you can agree that a ‘jump shot’ means there has to be some jump for that to happen. When somebody isn’t jumping enough in their jump shot then they tend to miss.
2) Did you watch the last game? If the answer to #1 is that you don’t know diddly about what it takes to make a good jump shot then it won’t matter, but just so you know. There wasn’t much jump in KMart’s jump shot. If you knew what to watch for you would have seen it plain as day. It was THAT obvious.
So, if you don’t know anything about what you or we are talking about you can do one of two things. Understand your own ignorance and realize somebody may know more than you or you can start throwing around uninformed opinions that just make yourself look stupid. Your choice, but I must say you aren’t off to a good start here.
Per Kevin Martin.
“(I’ve) been doing game-shape work the past three weeks just like I did with last year’s (ankle) injury, so I can hit the court ready to roll like last year – without rust,” he said.
Oh wait. You’ll probably want a link. :)
To respond to your questions: Yes, I’m well aware of the mechanics of shooting. Is KMart? I don’t know. He’s a little “different” when it comes to shooting. He is more of a “set shot” shooter anyways. But that’s besides the point.
There will be a SammyP wherever you go. But don't worry, it scared me at first too.
Read above from what_the_crap,
If you reach this point again and still don’t have a better understanding, repeat. Please note: if you do this more than ten times, just give it up. You are hopeless.
I Know Basketball shape.
I am not hopeless. I’m a realist. Call it — Like I see it. But if you’re using “winded” as an excuse for a professional athlete after 25 minutes of game play, not even a straight 25 minutes .. then that is exactly what it is, an excuse. I don’t care if it were back to back games, same day games, etc… he is a pro athlete who has been training in some form or another for the past several weeks, if not months. Stop phishing for an excuse to bash my opinion. I know what I’m talking about.
There will be a SammyP wherever you go. But don't worry, it scared me at first too.
So Sammy...
If know about this stuff then what is the typical reason why somebody has not legs in a game and why they don’t have enough jump in their jumpshot?
Hint: Coming back from being out on injury and playing three games in 4 days for a total of almost 100 minutes might have something to do with it.
I bet
Sammy can see Russia from his house.
Sammy always calls himself a “realist”, but he never makes a point other than to be contrary. He “calls it as he see’s it”, rather than base anything on fact. It would be interesting to see him post something that was just an original thought or observation, not just a negative and inflammatory remark.
by MichaelMack on Jan 19, 2010 11:13 AM PST up reply actions
Have you ever broken or fractured your wrist?
I have. Twice.
Running sends the impact through your body, and it hurts your wrist. Until it begins to heal, you can’t run. Maybe you ride an exercise bike to try to maintain your cardio, but it isn’t the same.
Sorry, but you’re wrong. And you vitriol just makes you come across as naive.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
Based on 3 games...
I would say the backcourt of Martin & Evans is a Weapon of Mass Scoring, and we should make important decisions affecting many lives, millions of dollars, and the future of the franchise based on the limited, heavily biased, and possibly faulty intelligence we have gleaned thus far. You can call it an opinion, or a personal dogma. I call it a Tenet.
In basketball terms, it’s a slam dunk.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.
by andy sims on Jan 19, 2010 6:56 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Mission Accomplished!
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
by Ice_9ine on Jan 19, 2010 8:08 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Poetry my man
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Jan 19, 2010 9:16 AM PST up reply actions
You'd have more credibility if you weren't in bed with the Saudis
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 19, 2010 9:36 AM PST up reply actions
"...the backcourt of Martin & Evans is a Weapon of Mass Scoring"
Nice. Someone fire up the photoshop…
33 Wins. Yeah, I said it.
Not working
Based on the 7 or 8 games they have played together, there has been 1 win. The weapons of mass scoring may or may not ever be found (depending on your political point of view), but just because your backcourt scores a ton of points does not equate to wins.
Martin scores easily, hits free throws and hits the 3 ball very well. And then what? Defense? Assists? Rebounds? Is a Leader? Gets injured more than any King in the last 3 years.
I don’t hate the guy and on a championship team he would probably be the 3rd option, but I’m not drinking the Kool-Aid.
We love Martin because for the last several years he is all we had and is probably the only reason so many of us watched, because there was nothing else to watch.
I have said it before and will say it again, with Evans you need a backcourt mate like Doug Christie. Someone who will play “D”, scores 10 points a game, will get some assists and does not need to be the focal point.
I believe in the next few weeks he will be talking with his realtor.
by noreboundsnorings on Jan 19, 2010 7:17 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
You are counting which games here...?
The first few in the season + the last three? Wow, what a sample! I mean he may be talking to his realtor, but that is only if we get Bosh or somebody like that. There are lots of types of Kool-Aid and you must be sampling some with a fair alcohol content to use those games as your basis for this prediction.
Um, excuse me...
But I’m pretty sure you’re one of many who has used K-Mart’s stats from the first (and at the time only) 5 games of the season. Wow, what a sample!
There will be a SammyP wherever you go. But don't worry, it scared me at first too.
Well let's see
As a 2 guard he is averaging (for all 8 games he has played) 5 rebounds, 2.4 assists, and 1.5 steals. Yep, those are some terrible numbers. And oh, yeah, 25.5 points. Which are all career highs, by the way. Looks like he’s struggling to fit in. And then there’s Evans who definitely can’t play with Martin on the floor. Oh, no wait, he just had a career high in scoring.
Can’t imagine why we would want a back court who can average 40+ points, 10+ rebounds together. And, um, last time I checked, Martin did not need to be the focal point.
Just to clarify, ’Reke is not Bibby. Hawes is not Divac. And JT is not Webber. So why in the world would we want Speed to be Doug Christie? I kind of wish I could see Martin play against us just for a game or two, so I could hear all you band-wagons, bitch and moan when he lit us up.
Write this down in that special place where you keep your returned love letters—K-Mart is not the problem.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
Again...
Based of 8 games.
Oh yeah, Tyreke played 40+ minutes yesterday, Kmart 25 minutes.
And then there’s Evans who definitely can’t play with Martin on the floor. Oh, no wait, he just had a career high in scoring.
Poor argument.
And finally, if KMart DIDN’T light us up playing us, then he shouldn’t be pro. Are you kidding me? You’re actually going to say that he should play us so we quit our bitching? And what does bandwagon have to do with anything? Last time I checked, most people jump off the wagon of a team whose 15-25.
There will be a SammyP wherever you go. But don't worry, it scared me at first too.
Since K-Mart came back
Evans has scored 14, 21, and 34 points. Two of the three games were above his average and the first one he went 3 for 13, which is not going to happen much this year. If you really want to use three games, then you must conclude that K-mart does not hamper ’Reke’s scoring.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
Not to mention
that Evans assists were 4,7,7. Again two out of three higher than his season average. If I was Evans, I’d be delighted to have Speed back. My numbers are looking great since his return.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
Excellent
Yes, the stats are not looking bad for KMart and Evans. Sammy I posted about this and you may want to read it. We are just in a shooting slump and it isn’t about KMart and Evans.
and
didn’t we lose 8 of 10 previous to Kevin coming back? So going 0-3 since his return broke up that magical chemistry we demonstrated?
We snuck up on a lot of teams early in the year, Tyreke was NBA ready right out of the gate, JT started the season really well, Omri was much better than advertised, Beno shot lights out for two months, Greene added some new skills to his game, and now everyone has played us and scouted us, and we are not adjusting very well to their game plans. I might not be as sold as everyone on PW, but he needs more than thirty five games with injured players to come up with our most effective rotations and game plans.
by MichaelMack on Jan 19, 2010 11:19 AM PST up reply actions
maybe, but
it seems like the Kings have been missing wide open jump shots lately — ones they have been making all year. Once JT gets out of his slump and starts hitting his midrange jumper and Casspi hits his 3’s again, the Kings will be fine.
by Pollard4LIfe on Jan 19, 2010 5:08 PM PST up reply actions
I hope you are right
That would be nice to know they are just having some prolonged slump rather than being a team that is easy to figure out.
the problem is
Lack of strong inside defense or good team d! So we either find a way to get okafor or someon equivalent or figure out the best combo to give us at least above average d. I say start donte over casspi and look at hilton over hawes for a while with reke and martin in the back court
by want2win on Jan 19, 2010 11:26 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I agree with the Donte part, Armstrong still needs to show me something
by Pollard4LIfe on Jan 19, 2010 5:10 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe he'll do that in game TWO of his Kings career
Or even game three!
"HARK! BUT LOOK OVER HERE, IT'S A COST CONTROLLED COCO CRISP! DOES MY USE OF ALLITERATION HYPNOTIZE YOU?" (PL78)
by CaliforniaJag on Jan 19, 2010 8:29 PM PST up reply actions
I was thinking the same thing about Donte
PW always talks about earning playing time, and Donte has with solid defense and more efficient offense. It’s hard for me to say put him ahead of Casspi, but i’d like to see him start a couple games at the 3. I hope they both get plenty of PT when Garcia comes back too.
the problem is
Lack of strong inside defense or good team d! So we either find a way to get okafor or someon equivalent or figure out the best combo to give us at least above average d. I say start donte over casspi and look at hilton over hawes for a while with reke and martin in the back court
by want2win on Jan 19, 2010 11:32 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Quick question
Did you even read TZ’s post?
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on Jan 19, 2010 7:37 AM PST up reply actions 4 recs
+1
The whole point of Ziller’s article is that we don’t definitively know anything yet. We have seen glimpses of both good and bad, so unless a no brainer deal comes along, the best course of action is to wait and see what develops. Two undeniable facts are in play here: 1. Kevin Martin is a very good player
2. Tyreke Evans is a very good player
A little patience on everyone’s part will allow this situation to play itself out and give everyone the chance to make a much more informed judgement on whether these two can thrive as a backcourt…
"Granted, this is not a great situation, but when all you have is lemons, you add some vodka to dull the pain..."
by Mcamp49 on Jan 19, 2010 8:44 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Well Said.
Blessings.Love.Peace
by lifestyleforthesellout on Jan 19, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions
+2
There seems to be a trend of not reading the initial post, but just entering the comments section to start arguing. It’s a little dissapointing.
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Jan 19, 2010 9:19 AM PST up reply actions
+3
I visit this site to read the inital posts, as its the best quality analysis of the Kings around. The comments/discussions/arguing is a bonus.
by TheFifthMookie on Jan 19, 2010 9:41 AM PST up reply actions
i did
I read the post and was making general comments, I agree that it is too early. I am just trying to state thatwe need to look at some combos that gives us better D to start the games.
by want2win on Jan 19, 2010 6:36 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
agree
that we can’t keep giving up 30+ points in the first quarter. The same players seem to settle in later in the game and play ok. We need a “Ray Lewis” to get in everyones’ face before the game and get them fired up.
WE ARE GOING TO WAR. WAAAAAAR!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
…just a thought
Go back to Sac-Bee...
It’s ignorant takes like this that get me going.
The first question I will ask you is: Not counting Kobe Bryant, what premier NBA scorer (Guard) plays good D?
Next: SO, if all we need is a guy who plays D and scores 10pts and maybe has a couple assists, are you saying we are playoff bound now then? In all honesty we do have Francisco Garcia, Omri Casspi, Donte Green, Noc, and Udoka… Hmmmmmm…
Geez, I hope GP doesn’t get kidnapped and brain washed to think like these “fans”. What we need is a REAL big man. Not an undersized tough guy or another 7ft softy, but a 7ft beast! If you put a legit center on this team WITH K-Mart & Reke’ the Kings would be on top for YEARS.
I'm a limousine-riding, jet-flying, kiss-stealing, wheeling-dealing son of a gun!!! Wooooo!!!
by Noble_Bloodlines on Jan 19, 2010 7:44 AM PST up reply actions
I'd rather read one comment with a dissenting view
than 10 comments with a “+1 good job!”… maybe TNT has gotten to me: I love drama.
by Pollard4LIfe on Jan 19, 2010 5:12 PM PST up reply actions
Really?
If I agree with someone’s comment instead of simply putting “+1”, you would prefer I write the exact same thing again? That’s more productive? That leads to a more productive reading experience?
If I want people to know that I agree with somebody, responding with a quick “+1” seems like a pretty darn efficient way to get that done.
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Jan 19, 2010 5:24 PM PST up reply actions
Really?
If I agree with someone’s comment instead of simply putting "+1", you would prefer I write the exact same thing again? That’s more productive? That leads to a more productive reading experience?
If I want people to know that I agree with somebody, responding with a quick "+1" seems like a pretty darn efficient way to get that done.
by MustangMBS on Jan 19, 2010 6:00 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I love yous guys
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Jan 19, 2010 6:06 PM PST up reply actions
+TinyArchibald
"HARK! BUT LOOK OVER HERE, IT'S A COST CONTROLLED COCO CRISP! DOES MY USE OF ALLITERATION HYPNOTIZE YOU?" (PL78)
by CaliforniaJag on Jan 19, 2010 8:31 PM PST up reply actions
Norebounds..
I agree 100%. K-Mart, on a true championship team, would be 3rd option at best. I don’t hate KMart either, but everyone here has a “Homer” mentality, in that as soon as somebody talks smack about their “Home” pride and joy, that being KMart, they hit the defensive no matter what.
We love Martin because for the last several years he is all we had and is probably the only reason so many of us watched, because there was nothing else to watch
Says it all right there…
There will be a SammyP wherever you go. But don't worry, it scared me at first too.
No Sammy
We actually look at numbers. We actually use stats. We actually compare games with and without. We analyze. We don’t stick our thumbs in our butts when the Kings lose and state without any evidence, “It’s his fault! Trade him!”
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
Stats are only a part of it..
If alls you use are stats, then you’re an idiot. Stats are deceiving. I analyze by observation and then look at stats. And I never said it’s “His fault” .. Trade him? Now yes, that is what I (have) said. At this point the Kings could use a better Big more than a Kmart.
There will be a SammyP wherever you go. But don't worry, it scared me at first too.
I don't disagree that the Kings need a big
But we also need a 1,2, and 3. Instead of getting rid of what we have, lets look to fill the spots we need. I see complaints that Speed doesn’t play enough defense or that he doesn’t rebound enough. This season he is averaging 5 rebounds. He is playing defense well enough for a guy that scores 25 points. Our points in the paint and lack of rebounding are not his fault.
If someone offered us Bosh for K-mart and expirings, I take the deal just like most of us. But look at the rumors you hear. No one is offereing an all star PF or center for K-Mart. We do have 12+ million in expirings though. That is enough cash to pick up a quality big, without losing our second best player. If you trade Speed for an adequate big (which is what you get at best IMO) all you do is fill one hole by opening another.
It’s easy to say most of STR is homers, and that we won’t consider trading a player we love. Spend a little time here and you’ll realize that is as far from the truth as you can get. We are willing to trade anyone that will make our team better. But we’ve learned over following thsi team for over 20 years that there is almost never a quick fix. Trading a high-quality player seldom nets you back what you lost. Other teams are looking to rip us off just like we’re looking to rip them off.
Are ’Reke and Martin going to work out together? Who knows? What you have seen is five games when ’Reke was learining the NBA game and 3 games when K-mart is coming back from months of not playing. Are you really ready to make a judgment off that? Or are you going to listen to what both of the players and the coach have to say?
I will tell you one thing. If you tried to trade K-mart right now, you would be trading from a position of weakness. You would be selling low. And you would probably not get back what you lost.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
by SavageBeast on Jan 19, 2010 9:13 AM PST up reply actions 4 recs
not so far
It’s easy to say most of STR is homers, and that we won’t consider trading a player we love. Spend a little time here and you’ll realize that is as far from the truth as you can get.
I’ve been on StR for a few years now, and no, it is not as far from the truth as you can get. In fact, it’s fairly close.
The homers and KMart apologists on this site are no fools, and they try hard to be objective. But they ain’t, and they can be damn prickly when somebody pisses in their cornflakes.
It has just been a few games, so let’s see some more KMart. What Kev needs to do is be part of a winning streak. Let’s declare a moratorium on praising KMart’s offensive efficiency and focus on wins, and whether he seems to be part of a winning formula.
Tyreke and Casspi seem like winners to me. Jury’s still out on the rest of the guys.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
whoops
I guess I don’t know how to use the block quote feature after all.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
It's a built-in feature when you criticize STR!
I don’t buy your argument. yes, there are people who don’t want to criticize a particular player. Just like there are people who hate certain players. Just look at how we’ve gone back and forth on K-mart, ‘Reke, Artest, Hawes, etc. And some people are more adament than others. But mostly what ticks people off is not the idea of making changes, but the knee-jerk, “He sucks! Get rid of him.” comments, or the "I know, let’s trade K-Mart for a real point guard" comments. Neither are well thought out and both are based on the idea that any change is better than no change.
It’s been my experience than when a well thought out, well written call to trade a certain player or move some one in the rotation, is posted, most people give a civil response. Any time you say, everyone on this site believes . . . you are wrong, sir. Because there are plenty of people on nearly every side of every question.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
I disagree!
Kidding. Don’t beat me!
StR Token Female
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 19, 2010 1:47 PM PST up reply actions
There's an exception to every rule
LPA is exceptional.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
"HARK! BUT LOOK OVER HERE, IT'S A COST CONTROLLED COCO CRISP! DOES MY USE OF ALLITERATION HYPNOTIZE YOU?" (PL78)
by CaliforniaJag on Jan 19, 2010 3:36 PM PST up reply actions
I'm excited about the future
I’m not worried about are back court at all. We have been losing games in the interior. More than anything, we need JT to get out of his funk. While he is in his funk, he needs to stop forcing things on offense and just concentrate on grabbing boards and creating second chance points. And just as important, he needs to stop the stupid fouls.
Both he and Spence need to do a better job of protecting the rim. Armstrong did a better job than both of them while he was in yesterday. JT need only look at Brockman to see what he should be concentrating on while he is on the floor.
Martin, despite cold shooting actually played a decent all around game yesterday. He played solid defense on Jackson, and he was the leading rebounder when he left the game.
by markdog333 on Jan 19, 2010 7:38 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
There's something wrong with this team
…And it’s not entirely Kevin Martin’s fault. I’m not going to point fingers. Ever since the incredible 35-point comeback in Chicago, we’ve been in a losing funk. Only two of the last thirteen games were wins. Kevin Martin has only played in three of the last thirteen games. We’ve been losing before Martin came back and may possibly continue to do so.
I don’t know if any of you caught Jim Crandell last night on Fox40, but he basically told all viewers to also back off on the Kevin Martin = Doom feelings most casual fans seem to have. He also said that the Kings have WAY more problems, and that those problems go beyond Martin taking away minutes from other players.
Crandell... agree...
http://www.fox40.com/sports/overtimeonline/
Hard work beats talent when talent is hardly working...
Agreed, clicc.
Hell, it’s not Kevin’s fault at all. It’s only been 3 games and I don’t even count Kevin and ’Reke’s tenure at the beginning of the season. We all have a long way to go before fans can truly assess Kevin’s value to the team. Personally, I think we’re fortunate to have such an awesome young core.
A young team is a young team.
Thanks for the linkage, krome.
33 Wins. Yeah, I said it.
I think a big problem
Is that a lot of fans remember when Webber was immediately inserted back into the starting lineup after his injury, and it resulted in the team imploding. Peja asked to be traded. Vlade left. Everything started sliding downhill, from wins to chemistry.
People need to realize that the situations are entirely different. For one, Webber had a knee injury that limited his ability to get into basketball shape before coming back, and his mobility after.
For another, Webber demanded the ball when he came back. All the time. Peja had carried the team all season long, but once Webber came back, he was an afterthought. Martin hasn’t showed that kind of ego. Ever.
So I t hink all the doomsayers are viewing this through that perspective, rather than seeing the situation in its own light. The fact that half our team is going through a shooting slump doesn’t help matters. We’re losing. It must be Martin’s fault.
Well, guess what, people. We’re not a .500 team. That wasn’t in the cards for us this season. Which means we’re going to lose a lot of games. Blaming Martin at this point is ludicrous.
StR Token Female
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 19, 2010 7:55 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Another problem with the Webber situation
IS WE WERE CONTENDING FOR A TITLE! We’re not even making the playoffs this year people!
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
reply
Yes, I read TZ and I do read the Bee. And no I have not had a drink in 25 years. I am just not that big of a Martin fan. Just a difference of opinion. And yes I did take the first few games into the equation. Should I just ignore the first few games? It would be nice if our record got to ignore the few games, but it doesn’t get too either.
I am not blaming Martin, I just do not see it working out.
And more important than anything else, we do need a legitimate big more than anything else.
I am not looking for blog fight. What I hope more than anything else is Petrie uses his pieces wisely to improve the team. I believe Martin will be one of those pieces that he uses to improve the team in the next few weeks.
by noreboundsnorings on Jan 19, 2010 8:07 AM PST reply actions
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
I think one major disconnect NRNR
is the relevance of wins this year to the discussion. Using wins and losses to measure anything this year doesn’t matter to a lot of us, because we don’t have any illusions about winning anything this year anyway.
This team is still significantly undermanned talent-wise. Its light years better than last year, but still has a long ways to go. I can understand your argument to use Martin to get the big man we desperately need. In my mind, its the wrong move because we can use money this summer or if we’re real fortunate this year’s upcoming #1 to address the frontcourt.
I don’t want to give up Martin for a hulking big man, because I think we’ll be woefully short of firepower if we do. I know we score a lot of points, but we don’t score when opponents bother to play defense. We need more firepower, and I believe Kevin will address it.
I guess my biggest question is, what’s the rush? Why not let the year play out and see what happens? We’re not winning the title this year under any circumstances, so the prudent thing to do is be patient and gather more information. The option to trade Kevin will be there late summer after free agents have been signed and we have another draft pick in the fold too.
(I’m not trying to be confrontational here, hopefully that tone is coming across.)
Free Omri...trade.Noc.
by ForThree on Jan 19, 2010 8:25 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Exactly.
Blessings.Love.Peace
by lifestyleforthesellout on Jan 19, 2010 11:31 AM PST up reply actions
Rec'd
That makes too much sense. I have been thinking along the same lines. As has been stated and restated, why take on a major salary when we aren’t going to make the playoffs this year anyway.
The reason I asked if you read TZ's article was this
I would say that through three games, we don’t know. I would say we need time for observation. If it turns out this experiment has failed, then move to pursuance. Until then, try to enjoy the show.
And yet, your response was to jump to a conclusion.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
Censorship!!
So, what exactly, are you saying, G?
Yes, Ziller “would say” we don’t know yet. And Ziller “would say” we need to observe more. And Ziller recommends that we try to enjoy the show. Does that mean that all readers are bound to comply with those same observations and recommendations?
It seems to me that NRNR and Sammy P are simply exercising their right to disagree with Ziller’s advice. They may have drawn a conclusion based upon limited evidence, but at least they’ve articulated a coherent position. (As have you.) Call them impatient, call them irrational, call them haters, but don’t demand they fall in lockstep with the author’s point of view.
by corbin on Jan 19, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That is a stretch...
To say that the countering view points have “articulated a coherent position.” Coherence really is defined by the level of iogic you find. Logic is generally not found in irrational rants that aren’t based on facts..
So
Shut up and get in line before you are banned! :)
Seriously, though. It does get old reading all the illogical twists and permutations of the various ignoramus-authored rants on trading Martin that give no valid rationals or arguments, employ little to no logic, and wrongly quote/use stats, or display a truly apalling lack of BB acumen. It is just.. Often time… Too much…
On the subject of debate and censorship
I have never advocated for censorship. I have always advocated for debate. I want to be sure I am perfectly clear on that topic.
However, I would not deem the response to be a coherent, articulated position. The point of Ziller’s article was that it is too early to leap to a conclusion. A counter to this would be to discuss why it is appropriate to draw a conclusion at this point. This was not done. Instead, conclusions were lept to with a sense is disregard for the point of this post.
To go to a comments section and immediately begin an argument without relating to the original post is a surefire way to earn my spite, regardless of your position.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on Jan 19, 2010 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The use of the word "censorship" was tongue in cheek.
Sometimes I just feel compelled to defend the unpopular minority opinion against the entrenched hordes. That is, I feel compelled to defend their right to make a flawed argument.
I do believe that it is possible for a “bad” argument to be coherent. And it is possible to articulate a flawed position. I think we know why NRNR and Sammy feel the way they do. In a nutshell, they’re saying KMart’s all-round game (defense, passing) is lacking, he lacks leadership qualities, he has no chemistry w/ Evans and the rest of the younger guys, and his recent injury is no excuse. Is it premature to draw these conclusions? Probably. But it’s clear to me what their argument is.
I also think their arguments do relate to Ziller’s post. TZ is saying “be cool everybody, let’s be patient and give this a chance.” NRNR and Sammy are simply saying “NO! I will not be cool about this! I want to be rash! I’ve seen all I need to see and I’m ready to make the change!” I don’t think it’s that big a departure from the subject of TZ’s post.
(Apologies to NRNR and Sammy for attempting to represent your positions.)
I see your point
But I still disagree.
Believe me, I’m 100% in favor of people making well-articulated arguments to further debate, even if I disagree. I just don’t feel like these qualified.
I would compare it to a situation where I’m in a movie theater and I say “Let’s see how this one ends!” after the opening credits, and the person I’m with says “The ending will be horrible.”
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on Jan 19, 2010 2:16 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
G, I think your movie analogy is right on the money
If you are really invested in KMart, then it’s like the movie you have paid to see, have come to see, and are sitting in the theater ready to see.
If you are really invested in the team, but not necessarily invested in KMart, it’s like the movie you might see, if it’s worth seeing. In that scenario, by all means the person your with should mention if they think the movie’s going to suck.
I think for you, Kev is the movie you have paid to see, and for Corbin and me, Kev is the movie we might see, or not. And to be criticized when we think out loud about whether that movie might suck seems over the top.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
The problem is
that people aren’t saying the movie ‘might’ suck. They are saying it does suck without even watching it.
and people are allowed to do that
and decide not to see a movie
happens all the time
there’s no rule that you have to see every movie that comes out
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
It's not that simple Holmdel
If you have a point of view and you express it in forums such as this, you better be able to defend it with more than “I just don’t want to be patient; I don’t want to wait to see how this work.” You gotta prove your point somehow.
And if while trying to prove your point, you don’t make sense, people will go at you and make sure you get it right. I appreciate that about places like this; you better bring your A game because if not you will be schooled and ridiculed. I expect the same to happen to me if I write something that doesn’t make sense or I’m unable to make a point.
If it wasn’t for holding this type of standard around here, StR wouldn’t be what it is today, a great site with extremely knowledgeable fans. And if anyone thinks there’s such a thing as a “group-think” environment around here, they just haven;t taken the time to read around and get to know the site and its characters.
The future begins now...
There were serious fallacies in that "Censorship" post
First of all it was a big fat Red Herring. Look that up as it is a really cool tool to use when your own logic can’t win an argument, but one HUGE problem is that it is also a pretty easily spotted fallacy. No, not the fellatio kind either.
This is about the quality of thought people give to their posts, or really the lack of thought, and wanting to have more thought out information. Or, people at least being willing to listen to others that can provide some really good insight.
All too often people get on here and absolutely refuse to hear anything else no matter how well a point is made. When that happens then the fallacious crap starts flowing instead of just having an honest dialog.
This site is only as good as the quality of the conversation and if that goes down hill it brings the whole site down a notch. That is why so many people spend time trying to convince those who refuse to listen. They value this site and want the best for it. Unfortunately some don’t seem to care at all.
You lost me at fellatio
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Jan 19, 2010 9:33 PM PST up reply actions
+2
Yah, those two
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Jan 19, 2010 9:49 PM PST up reply actions
It's that Italian ice cream right?
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
Yep, me too
Kind of like Pavlov ringing the bell no?
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
I'm with you here on the fallacious reasoning.
Taking a course or reading a book in constructing an argument or the fallacies would be a wise move before trying to go toe to toe with the masses. Playing the devils advocate in this situation (the return of Martin) seems like an easy one for me and I am a huge believer that he is part of the solution, not part of the problem. I’m not going to do it right now because I don’t want some d-bag attaching himself/herself to my well constructed argument.
Here is a list of a few “fallacies” that are commonly found in poorly reasoned arguments for those of you who are like….wtf?
Ad hominem: Attacking a person instead of their argument.
ex: No, Kevin Martin isn’t skinny, you’re just a racists.
Needling: Intentionally antagonizing your opponent instead of addressing their argument.
Ex: I would love to respond to you’re post but you can’t even make the “é” so you are stupid LLTG.
Straw Man: Exaggerating your opponents position in order to attack it.
Ex: All of you believe that Kevin Martin is a hall of famer so reasoning with you is stupid.
You know what, you are all a bunch of Homers who have sex with goats and believe that Kevin Martin is the next Michael Jordan.
Click here to learn more.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
Fellatio
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Jan 19, 2010 9:50 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed
What I do with goats should really have nothing to do with this conversation.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Are you needling me?
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
Actually,
I was needling the goat.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 19, 2010 10:13 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm sure it's bigger than a needle
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
The reason I disagree
Is not just that I like kmart. I don’t think that we can get equal value for him by making a trade at this moment. He is a well priced star. I just don’t see another team giving us a well priced quality big (is there such a thing?) in return.
I think it is awesome that anyone thinks we are one move away from being a playoff contender. That just speaks to how far we have come in a short time.
I think
if we are worrying as fans …. we should worry less about Martin/Evans and worry more ab out JT/Hawes. JT’s funk is more of a worry to me than KMart is.
by Dub_TC on Jan 19, 2010 8:27 AM PST reply actions 3 recs
Truth
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Jan 19, 2010 9:22 AM PST up reply actions
Agreed, I'm more worried about Spence than JT though...
I don’t think that combination is a long term solution. Unless JT ends up as a package out deal to bring in a better solution @ the pivot and Spence slides to PF. Otherwise, I see Spence as bench material. Maybe, just me though.
Sound the trumpets, Raise the drawbridge, and drop the Oldsmobile
by Balky Needs on Jan 19, 2010 11:07 AM PST up reply actions
Big ups for this, what-crap.
I have no worries about Kevin and ‘Reke. Hell, I don’t worry about Brocktimus, Donte, Beno and Casspi. I think those guys are fine players or will grow into fine players that can help the Kings and any other team in the league.
I do worry about JT’s mindset being okay and Spence’s overall development. I really feel the rest of their careers will be determined on how well their confidence is built this season. One disappointing year can traumatize a player for life.
33 Wins. Yeah, I said it.
BUT THE PLAYOFFS TZ
IT’S SLIPPING AWAY!!
And so we return to the same anti-Kevin sentiment that pervaded the site earlier this year. Guys like Sammyp squawking every time Martin has a poor game, then disappearing when he plays well.
This backcourt has played 8 games people…8. If you feel the need to make judgments based on 8 games, then be prepared to be ridiculed mercilessly for the idiots you are.
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
Now now,
No nead to ridicule our fellow STR contibutors. Sammy is one of the few bloggers that actually thinks like I do.
Think outside the box Otis. I’m thinking a backcourt of Reke and Jamal Tinsley is becoming more and more inevitable.
GO KINGS and share the Love.
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.
by nothingbutnet on Jan 19, 2010 11:16 AM PST up reply actions
Are you a sinking ship too?
“Avoid destructive thinking. Improper negative thoughts sink people. A ship can sail around the world many, many times, but just let enough water get into the ship and it will sink. Just so with the human mind. Let enough negative thoughts or improper thoughts get into the human mind and the person sinks just like a ship.”
Author: Alfred A Montapert
Nah,
just havin some fun. I can’t understand why anyone would want to trade Kmart at this point.
If we are unsucessful acquiring a quality big either through a trade not involving Martin or through the draft, I may change my mind.
We have the rest of the season to get it right.
I really think we can be a playoff contender(6-8 seed) next year.
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.
by nothingbutnet on Jan 19, 2010 12:39 PM PST up reply actions
Very nice post.
He may be an asset, but so are Thomas, HA, May, Sergio as expiring contracts. So is a lottery draft pick, Donté Green, Spencer Hawes, Jason Thompson, Omri Casspi, John Brockman, Noccioni, even Beno and…oh yeah, Tyreke Evans.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
the sinking ship
Some people will not get off a ship until they find out why it is sinking. Now that I know the ship is sinking I guess I better get off. If I see the ship is sinking, I am getting off. Don’t need to find out why.
Are the Kings a sinking ship, Hell no. If you think that this year’s team and a draft pick in 2010 will get you in the playoffs next year, ain’t happening. Memphis and OKC are improving and they may not make the playoffs this year.
The Kings have some bullets, I say fire a few of them for other pieces.
I want to thank Corbin for backing me a little bit here too. I will need you in the future too. Sometimes on this site disagreement means dumbfu….k, asshole, etc. I am a diehard fan, have several autographs and pictures in the Kings room. Hell, my kids picture was even on a ticket a few years ago. Our Xmas picture was the family dressed in King’s garb. Only the wife would want that.
I do agree with TZ on several points, but waiting is not one of them.
by noreboundsnorings on Jan 19, 2010 2:03 PM PST up reply actions
What's wrong with waiting in your opinion?
and what deals including Kevin are out there that would improve this team in the future?
The future begins now...
Not to be a smart ass but...
What if the ship isn’t really sinking but you jumped into the icy cold water like a dumbfu..k and you just realized that your mesh Kings jersey makes a lousy flotation device? Being a fan means that you don’t jump on and off a ship, you throw your heart at it like the US government throws money at an American car maker. I understand your point and I don’t think you are a dumbsh*t but I think you should buy some non-slip shoes and ride this thing out for a few before getting wet.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
Ask me in another two weeks
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
I don't think two weeks is enough
It will probably take that long for PW to figure out some rotations, and that isn’t even taking into account Cisco’s return.
yep
That was a point I made before K-Mart came back. PW is just starting to figure out his rotations now. We’re not going to know what we really have going until close to teh end of the season. Then we can argue all we want about how to fix what, but we’ll have real numbers to work with.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
The ESPN-NBA headline on Martin being potentially traded due to the 0-3 start is upsetting.
But at least that purple jersey is lookin’ sexy.
…
:(
by Webber's Ankle on Jan 19, 2010 10:19 AM PST reply actions
are you referring to
The Hollinger quote referencing Amick’s article about chemistry, or Chad Fords Calderon deal?
or something new?
I don't have insider
but I am referring to the Truehoop + Rumors link with the Martin picture saying: “The Kings are 0-3 since Kevin Martin’s return. Will Sac-Town move its 2-guard?”
by Webber's Ankle on Jan 19, 2010 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
I think it's this one
It sounds like he is basically saying what Ziller said…it is too early to tell:
Since Kevin Martin returned to the lineup Friday night, the Kings are 0-3, having only scored 86 points in each of the first two contests.
And as we’ve mentioned before, how the Kings do, and especially how Martin plays with Tyreke Evans may seal his fate. If Martin and Evans can co-exist in the backcourt together, he’ll likely stay with the team.
If the marriage doesn’t work out, there’s talk the Kings might trade Martin because him and Evans are similar players.
Since Kevin Martin returned to the lineup Friday night, the Kings are 0-3, having only scored 86 points in each of the first two contests.
And as we’ve mentioned before, how the Kings do, and especially how Martin plays with Tyreke Evans may seal his fate. If Martin and Evans can co-exist in the backcourt together, he’ll likely stay with the team.
If the marriage doesn’t work out, there’s talk the Kings might trade Martin because him and Evans are similar players.
If the marriage doesn’t work out, there’s talk the Kings might trade Martin because him and Evans are similar players.
My reaction when I read this:
“Uhhhhhhh……………………………………………………they are?”
I know you didn’t write it markdog. ESPN Insider isn’t looking so hot right now.
"HARK! BUT LOOK OVER HERE, IT'S A COST CONTROLLED COCO CRISP! DOES MY USE OF ALLITERATION HYPNOTIZE YOU?" (PL78)
by CaliforniaJag on Jan 19, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
If Martin and Evans can co-exist but the the rest of the players suffer?
I think that there is way too much discussion on Martin v. Evans and very little on Martin and Evans v. 10 other Kings players. The Kings won the games they did when Martin was injured because half the roster was averaging double figures. The real coaching now begins for Westphal. How does he integrate the rest of the team into a system that should yield upwards of 60 points between the 3 primary guards? How does he integrate motion offense and an isolation offense from one possession to the next? These are questions that Paul is going to have to answer and soon.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
I’m not worried about K-Mart being traded, because all we are going to get for him is junk. Unless you’re telling me that we trade K-Mart and get Joe Johnson in the off season then I’m not happy. Like has been said our issue is inside. Our bigs never play well together either spencer is killing one night and JT is stinking the place up or vice versa. It really is sickening. Obviously K-Mart is rusty whether people think he was going to magically be the 30 point K-Mart before he got hurt. Point is we always whine about needing a superstar we have two now and people consistently want to get rid of him. Not mention he’s an ego free person who just loves Sac and wants so desperately to see us win. What’s going to happen is you all or going to get your wish. He’s going to get traded for a box of crayons and you’re going to be bitching you want him back.
by dj3ptspecialist44 on Jan 19, 2010 10:25 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Great piece Ziller
Gotta give this team time. I think we have a long season ahead and we’ll have a better idea of what we have and what combinations work.
One quick reminder for everyone: don’t feed the trolls, we’re smarter than that
The future begins now...
Every game is a barometer
I did see Tyreke spot K-Mart open a few times yesterday and get him the ball. He just missed. No biggie. Not fatigue, as suggested above, just lack of timing, and rhythm.
I have seen almost every game K-Mart as played as a pro. Where he does a lot of damage is playing off a post guy, high or low, where he can back cut or fade to the corner. Tyreke is not part of that equation.
To say Tyreke and K-Mart are not an ideal pairing may be true, and I think it probably is (combo guard/Tyreke works best with combo guard, pure SG/Speed – works best with pure PG), but frontline is a much large point of inadequacy.
The Kings would be at or close to .500 record if we had a reliable and steady big man. I am speaking in the neighborhood of guys like:
Carl Landry (yes, a household name himself, the Carl Landry)
Louis Sciola (over 50+% shooting, smart and steady)
David Lee (19/12 on 56%)
Paul Mislap (16/10 last year in place of Boozer; a superior JT)
Notice Chris Bosh is not on this list. Look around the league, Teams like Memphis and the Clips and Bobcats and Bulls are hovering around .500, as the Kings record has taken a precipitous nosedive in last 3 weeks.
We have a PF in JT shooting sub 50%, even though he has a PG who gets into the paint at will, takes himself out of games mentally almost as soon as the ball is tipped, and gets upstaged by Brockness Monster whenever our team makes a big run.
Think on it Kings fans: A lot of comebacks and rallies have been with Brockness spurring the way. Who is off the floor usually when this happens: JT. Tyreke made a telling statement in press conference yesterday “He loves when Brock is on the floor” Why? Hustle defense, rebounding, and smart play, i.e. no dumb shots, no dumb TOs, no dumb fouls to curb ferocious rallies.
I don’t think Tyreke and K-Mart are an ideal fit, but let’s give it more time. As far as I am concerned, JT doesn’t need more time, we have seen enough.
were you saying the same thing about JT
10 games ago when he was averaging 17 & 9?
JT was never averagng 17 points a game this year.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 19, 2010 12:52 PM PST up reply actions
True
And even when he has played ‘well’, he has not shown consistent ability to play strong post D, score repeatedly out of the low post, or make big plays in crunch times. He has every opportunity to step up and play a starring role, but he lacks the skills. I like JT as a nice guy and hard worker, but trade deadline discussions should include his name without reservation.
Yeah, what were you thinking
How dare you round up your numbers like that! He only scored an average of 16.6 points in December and that .4 makes it way less than 17 points…
And ignore his run of 9 games from Dec. 8th to the 23rd where he averaged 18.8 points cause that isn’t right to selectively sample like that…
And, And, he is in a slump, but still averaging 13.9 points and 8.9 rebounds cause that is way less that 9 rebounds. Just don’t go there cause that shit is just weak.
by MustangMBS on Jan 19, 2010 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Mustang
Sorry if I misunderstood, but I thought he was talking about averaging 17 for the whole season up to some point.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 19, 2010 6:16 PM PST up reply actions
I know
Sometimes we pick at each other instead of figuring out the other’s point. I just wanted to have some fun with it. I got the intent of what he was saying. There was a period of time in which JT was putting up those kinds of number… He hit a stride that was long enough and consistent enough for most of us to see that he has some decent scoring hops. Now he is in a slump and people are down on him.
I think you can make an initial assesment...
… and it seems to me that KM and Tyreke are doing fine together. The problem, and the only reason this is even a discussion, is that it’s not translating to Wins. Anyone who watches the games, though, know that there are other reasons that the Kings are losing right now. Mainly— horrible interior D, too many turns, and slumps by a couple other key players.
by henryclemente on Jan 19, 2010 10:49 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Yessiree, that's my opinion too
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Jan 19, 2010 10:57 AM PST up reply actions
Totally Agree.
Blessings.Love.Peace
by lifestyleforthesellout on Jan 19, 2010 11:47 AM PST up reply actions
Coltrane?
Is the blog title a Coltrane reference?
It doesn’t help that our schedule got awfully hard real quick without our best player and it only continues to get worse. Lets face reality we aren’t going to recover from this long road trip or that tough stretch where we kept losing close games. I still think we will win 30 games, but any playoff aspirations we had with the early success of this team is pretty much gone. Unless some how they put together a 4 game win streak starting tomorrow. That seems unlikely. I do however expect K-Mart to start playing like his self soon.
by dj3ptspecialist44 on Jan 19, 2010 11:54 AM PST reply actions
This is not a Martin / Tyreke issue
They are fine. The problem has been the 2 bigs have hit the tank way too often, The only guy who may have a problem is Casspi, trying to figure out where he gets his shots.
That’s his issue to solve, but the answer is simple, shoot when you have the shot. Kevin and Reke are not goping to care if Casspi throws up 20 shots in the flow of the game.
I’m not saying he becomes Noc and shoots everything that touches his hands, but be the same Omri he was in games 10-30 (before he seemed to start to tire).
My only worry about Kevin is defense, and as long as he can keep it at Udrih level or above I am good to go.
Jt needs to become Jt again, and I could take this version if Spence if he could up his RBs to more than 1 every 4 minutes.
I agree ElRon.
I think that Evans is trying still needs to do a better job of padding the assist column. In the Bobcats game, Evans had a two on one break and decided to go at the guy who stayed on him instead of hitting a teammate for an open dunk. Evans is young and I think he is struggling to keep the “blue print” intact by winning the ROY. Eventually, Evans will understand that scoring 31 and having a teammate get a big moment is more valuable than 33 and making someone feel like you’re selfish.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
by jjham15 on Jan 19, 2010 10:30 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
If we were creating a perfect partner for Reke
what would those qualities be
Size (Martin and Garcia qualify Udrih no)
The ability to make the outside shot (Martin great, Garcia solid,Udrih solid)
Handle the Ball(Martin below avg, Garcia avg,Udrih above avg)
Passing (Martin avg, Garcia slightly above avg, Udrih above average).
Defense (Martin no, Garcia yes,Udrih no)
Team first/leader (Garcia Hell yes, Martin Udrih yes)
I am sure there are other qualities I am missing, but Martin his big on the first 2 (size for mismatches and ability to hit the outside shot),
Not sure who would fit better unless you are in the camp that Evans in NaPG, in which case I dismiss your opinion.
What qualities DIDN'T you include?
:-)
by henryclemente on Jan 19, 2010 1:11 PM PST up reply actions
Ability to get to the line?
Purveyor of Bull Plop
Yeh lets trade Kevin Martin for Jose Calderon sounds like an even trade. We definitely need another PG that’s slight better than Beno. Kill me if you want Calderon is alright, but I don’t get this ESPN idiots who think we need to trade K-Mart, because we are on 0-3 if we were going to trade him it’d be last year when we absolutely sucked. We do need a trade to shake up this team. Look at the Grizzlies right now and the Thunder. We have as much talent on our team as theirs they happen to have better post players…. Our wings to me rival the best in the league. It’s our damn front court that is killing us. JT please turn back into the Kid. Spencer play like someone told you that you couldn’t vote hahha….
by dj3ptspecialist44 on Jan 19, 2010 12:52 PM PST reply actions
Agree on TZ'[s basic point
We definitively don’t know anything yet. And won’t for a while.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 19, 2010 12:54 PM PST reply actions
Can we stop talking about Reke and Martin...
And start talking about our real star, Chapu?
"Oh, y ahora ¿quién podrá defenderme?" "¡Yo!"
I doubt he will be traded
Not that the Kings won’t be listening, but I don’t think the right deal will be offered.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 19, 2010 6:17 PM PST up reply actions
I don't see teams offering a contract that expires this season for Noc
I do think it’s possible that a team like the Knicks would consider moving Noc for Jared Jeffries. If I were the Kings I’d definitely do that.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
And I say that because the difference in salary NEXT season is less than 2K
That makes a big difference to the Knicks.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
I agree
that Jeffries is a lot more interesting player than people give credit for. He’s way overpaid, but I’d take him for Noc.
Free Omri...trade.Noc.
Who cares how he plays?
He’s not a guy PW will be too compelled to play. Also, the Kings might get something for him if teams are in fact interested in him come this summer.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Come on
What were you thinking ElRon? Chapuforyouwill follow his boy anywhere. Even if he joins Marbury in China.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
Dang reply button!
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
If he does, I'd be excited. I could actually pop in and watch him play in person!
There can only be one Noce!
I enjoyed TZ's post and the nice reply post by For Three
after that in regards to the rest of this thread, and I apologize if I state this rudely.
You got a purty mouth
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
by otis29 on Jan 19, 2010 2:33 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Hmmm
I know that I’m considered to be in the tank for Kevin Martin. This blog started just as Kevin Martin rose from anonymity to stardom. Save for a few minor rookie moments, this blog has basically covered every day of Martin as a King, Martin as an NBA player. And Martin — undersung for so long, worthy and desperate for deeper inspection — is the perfect blogger vessel. I could point out things about Martin most non-Kings fans would never see.
I’m also in the tank for Kevin Martin as well. I saw a multiple time All-Star in Kevin back in 2005-06, and I refuse to back off from that. From my POV, at times he has played as one. Of course there is also the injury caveat, which also has happened.
It’s amazing how worked up people get over Kevin Martin. It’s like he ran over your dog or something.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
My dog could run over Kmart :)
He’s a chocolate lab.
The ESPN report that said Kmart and Reke were similar was totally off-base. Kmart is the best three-point shooter in his draft class and one of the best in the league, while Reke is like a running back barreling through a maze of power forwards. Meanwhile, Reke is pretty challenged outside and Kmart isn’t running over anyone.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 19, 2010 6:21 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah I'm pretty sure you could knock over Speed too CC. :)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
I was thinking... chocolate lab...
coolcat has a cool dog
by betweentheeyes on Jan 19, 2010 7:11 PM PST up reply actions
Ah... the irony
His cat is probably some lame tabby or something. Not some kind of half manx, half puma cat… Or better yet, he doesn’t even have a cat at all…
You're right
We’ve had some cats in the past, but we’ve always had dogs so the cats just weren’t around one day … I’m not much of a cat person.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 19, 2010 9:27 PM PST up reply actions
Either one of us could
And if we sandwiched him, it would be all over :) Not even Ron Artest could protect him. I bring him up because I thinking of that run-in Kmart had with Harpring.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 19, 2010 9:29 PM PST up reply actions
My favorite part of the whole Kevin Martin argument
is that those who consider themslves in the “minority” don’t even care to ask what the “majority” really thinks of the guy. Aside from not knowing how to prove their point (not all, of course) they have their whole argument based on assumptions that they never bother to get clarification on.
The future begins now...
I read this and it summed up what everybody has been saying all along
Despite the assurances of both Evans and Martin that they can play together, rumors about Martin’s looming departure persist. The Kings have made it clear that they are not shopping Martin, and they believe he and Evans can combine to form a lethal one-two punch in their back court for years to come. Whether or not they actually get that chance remains to be seen, but making a move before Martin is fully healthy would be a big mistake. If these two impressive young players can co-exist, they could be the key to Sacramento’s next playoff run.
/blockquote>
Link HERE
Tommy Kelly's ass won us that game against Denver!
You need to wait until KMart is fully healthy, and you need to give them a chance
to develop chemistry.
But the front office has another consideration to factor in: One more injury will devastate his trade value. If they have decided he’s simply a fragile guy, then the smart move would be to trade him before that next injury.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
That's a good point
At the same time, while he has gotten injured a lot, it hasn’t been a recurring problem with any specific body part (a bad knee, or a bad ankle). It’s always something different and that counts too. Also, past injuries are not necessariyl the best determinant for future injuries.
I personally don’t doubt that’s something the FO looks at, but my best guess would be that they’d prefer to let the year play out and give them that chance.
The future begins now...
good point re the different body parts
Personally, I think GP’s philosophy is to err on the side of patience.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
He has definitely shown that in the past, no doubt
and I would think he obviously knows that such a young team just needs time. Some things are obvious, like the lack of interior D, but others may just come with time and development. I see no reason to rush into anything
The future begins now...
That's kind of where I'm at
I’m hoping Kmart really brings it for the rest fo the season and plays at the level he’s capable of, because it will either set us up for the future or increase his trade value if the Kings get a chance to sell high.
I think the missing piece is how highly do other teams value Kevin.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 19, 2010 9:32 PM PST up reply actions
I agree that the spread of perceived value
for Kevin is very, very high.
You can even see that here at StR, where the values range from expirings to “plays at an All-Star level or close to it”.
There are so many variables with Kevin, the injuries, ridiculous efficiency, the defense, the scoring. He’s a very high beta player. The thing about high beta is, he’s not worth as much as the optimist thinks and is worth more than the pessimist believes, but usually there are people in both camps for someone like Kevin.
Free Omri...trade.Noc.
I'm realistic about Kevin
I just don’t understand why the Kings have to settle for something they don’t need or desire at this point. This team is nowhere near complete.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Yeah...
Or about how the current losses have not been his fault, but the result of a shooting slump from the rest of the team ;)
Or the fact that the team is young and the early (relatively) success had people thinking bigger than they had a right to....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
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