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Tyreke Evans and turnovers



So, we are looking at almost half the season done.  What are our standings and where do we need to improve.  Obviously, we have to get better defensively, but I don't hear as much talk about our turnovers. 

We talk about the defense all the time, but we also really need to address the TOs.  We give up +1.65 more TOs than our opponents and have an average of 15.8 TOs a game.  That makes us the 4th worst team in the league.   We have a horrible rate of turnovers, but nobody is saying too much about that..  Why is that?

Star-divide

Is it because Tyreke is our PG? Is it because we are afraid to say that he turns over the ball a lot?  Because he does and maybe we are a little afraid to say it out loud.  Tyreke Evans turns over the ball too much.  More than anybody else on the team.  There I said it.  Not so bad after all.  That doesn't mean he is NaPG. 

I set out to write this piece because TOs are an issue and then saw that our #1 TO guy is Tyreke Evans.  I stopped, thought 'Man I could catch some shit over this,' and then realized I do anyway, so what the truth can't hurt that bad. Can it?  We just need to be honest with ourselves and get past this, and the news on TOs gets better.  There is good news on our PG of the future, but more about that later.  After the bad news...

HOW TO ASSESS OUR PG? TOs?

I am no pro at BB stats, but I like to play with data (I am a geek like that)  and it seems that one of the big stats to evaluate a PG is the assist to TO ratio.  That seems to be a generally accepted and good measure of somebody who is running the ball at PG.  So, for every assist how many TOs do our 3 guys give up? 

We have three guards who run the offense (Evans, Udrich, and Sergio) and we need to really look at each of them and fairly compare them.  Turns out that Beno (2.14 TOs for every five assists) is just slightly ahead of Sergio (2.24 TOs for every five assists) and, damn it, they are both ahead of Evans who has 2.94 TOs for every five assists.  This is not what I had hoped for and discouraging when considering that he has the ball most of the time. 

We just don't take care of the ball well enough.  And, unfortunately, Tyreke Evans leads the pack with the highest average number of TOs per game at about 2.9 TOs per game and since he is averaging about fives APG the assist to TO ratios make sense.  The thing is that he has the ball the most and is leading the offense so this should be no big deal, right?  Evans also plays more minutes so he should also have more turnovers for this reason... right?  Just taking the average per game given more minutes and time with the ball isn't fair to Tyreke Evans.  In order to compare Evans, Udrich, and Sergio fairly we have to compare their turnover rates by averaging the TOs by the number of minutes they are on the floor.  

So, I took the average TOs for the season, to date, and averaged that by the minutes played.  I did this for the whole team, but really focused on our three guards. This way we get an average that takes into account, controls for, the time played and the fact that Evans plays more.  So, how did they do?  I took their TOs divided by minutes played and multiplied that by 30 minutes.  That way we get a fair comparison for 30 minutes of play for each of the three.  The highest number of TOs per 30 minutes is... 

Sergio at 3.2 TOs
Evans at 2.3 TOs 
Beno at 1.7  TOs

So, is this a fair representation of where these three are at in TOs?  I am not so sure, but it may be as close as I am going to get given what I have at my disposal. 

The problem is that Evans and Beno are often on the floor together and they often take turns sharing the ball.  This gives them both time on the floor without running the ball which causes fewer TOs for them individually, whereas when Sergio is on the floor he is typically at PG with the ball.  There are times when he isn't running the ball, but this really is, IMO, a small fraction of his time. This is important because this would affect my calculations and unfairly inflate the number of TOs for Sergio.  Making his number artificially higher, but this is hard to tell.  I also remember way too many circus-type passes from Sergio that turned into TOs.

The higher TO rate for Sergio might not seem to jive with the above assist to TO ratio, but it does actually works because despite more TOs for Sergio he also gets more assists per minute.  Sergio leads in this category with .23 assists per minute (meaning he gets almost an assist every 4 minutes) whereas Beno and Evans are both tied at .13 assists per minute (meaning that they get an assist every 7+ minutes or so). 

This was a little surprising.  Not that Sergio gets more assists per minutes as he can be a passing fiend, but that Beno and Evans are tied?  Interesting because I would not have thought that, but does this mean Sergio spends more time at PG when he is on the floor? Maybe, but it could be arguable.  I think so in watching the games...  but nothing conclusive here...  Must resist descending into the data too far... Too much fun... Argh.

WHAT CAN WE CONCLUDE THEN?  

We can definitely say that Evans has a higher average number of TOs per game and a worse assist to TO ratio than either Sergio or Beno.  This really sucks given he spends so much time with the ball, but we have to take into account the minutes he has the ball.  Given that it looks better and he is somewhere between Sergio and Beno, so maybe not so bad after all.  

Now the good news, yes I saved it for last, the good news is that Tyreke Evans is improving at the TO thing.  Yes, the fact that he is a rookie has to be taken into account. 

His average TO per game is 2.9, but that number only tells part of the tale.  The real story may be the monthly breakdown.  This is the good news.  He has lowered his average TO rate per game for each of the last three months. 

November - 3.33 TOs per game
December - 2.54 TOs per game
January - 2.33 TOs per game

Given this the 2.9 season average doesn't look as bad.  Hopefully his TO average will keep going down and level off somewhere a lot lower, but this is a rebuilding year and developing our players is part of that.  It will be interesting to see where Tyreke Evans ends up in TOs. 

By this account Tyreke is reducing his rate of TOs each month and that does a lot to make me feel better about our standing as 4th worst in the NBA.  I know it is likely to get better as our PG of the future grows into his place in the NBA. 

I also realized that our turnover problem isn't just a PG problem.  We have guys that just turnover the ball way too much.  Sean May, Donte' Greene, Spencer Hawes, and Jason Thompson have been the worst offenders and all have turned over the ball more than Beno and that is a problem.  Turnovers are a problem, a team problem.

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

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nice post

guess reke is more careful than he seems (even in his shot selection!)

Screw you Knicks! LBJ to the Kings!!!

by Shizzo on Jan 28, 2010 1:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Great stuff!!

Clearly this is the better way to go. I need to dig into this stuff…

by MustangMBS on Jan 28, 2010 6:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Learn these, live them:

basketball-reference.com

82games.com

If you like stats, you’ll enjoy those sites. Also, basketball-reference has a querying feature that’s nice, but a little difficult to find.

Free Omri...trade.Noc.

by ForThree on Jan 28, 2010 7:48 AM PST up reply actions  

basketball-reference.com

I was wondering where to go to get all the stats on these games. Thanks for these links.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on Jan 28, 2010 8:54 AM PST up reply actions  

It doesn't have individual boxscores for this stuff

You’re just going to have to wait for B-Ref to update their stats on players. (Which they do fairly quickly. Usually within a day.)

On the other hand, you can also figure out usg rates, reb% by using the formulas they provide. You just have to know all the details that make up the formula.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 28, 2010 9:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Or any advanced stats (it's not just USg, TS% or Reb%)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 28, 2010 9:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Pookey haven't you read hoopdata.com?

They have new advanced boxscores that show advanced statistics for each game. Here’s the link for anyone interested: http://hoopdata.com/boxscores.aspx

Father of the "Natt this!" movement, Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order, and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".

by Aykis16 on Jan 28, 2010 3:31 PM PST up reply actions  

I've read it.

But I don’t delve in it in detail.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 28, 2010 4:31 PM PST up reply actions  

And so much for what I know.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 28, 2010 4:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Its a nice resource.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement, Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order, and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".

by Aykis16 on Jan 28, 2010 5:51 PM PST up reply actions  

No question.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 29, 2010 1:44 PM PST up reply actions  

The interfaces are a bit obscure

I need to play with it to figure it out. To me half the fun is actually getting into the data and how it is coded, but the use of these sites is way easier.

by MustangMBS on Jan 28, 2010 10:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Basketball Value.com is also awesome 4-3.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 28, 2010 12:07 PM PST up reply actions  

B-Ref

But 82games & Basketball Value are great ONCE you understand them.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 28, 2010 12:36 PM PST up reply actions  

So is hoopdata MBS.

It’s just as good. The difference with B-Ref is that they explain what all the different stuff means.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 28, 2010 4:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah

That would actually be helpful!

by MustangMBS on Jan 28, 2010 4:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Take some time when you aren't doing anything useful or what not.

And go through some of the definition. If you really want to get into this, much of the stat data derives from Dean Oliver, and in particular his book Basketball on Paper.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 29, 2010 1:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks!

I really appreciate this… and, despite the murder of Eeyore, you seem like a pretty good guy after all :)

by MustangMBS on Jan 29, 2010 2:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Nah.

I’m still an asshole.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 29, 2010 3:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Very interesting!

Have to wonder if this is the most powerful measure of a player’s effectiveness. This puts D. Wade in the top spot with a 2-year adjustment, but in 2nd place with a one year adjustment.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on Jan 28, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions  

He does so much for his team that I'm not surprised he's at the top of adjusted +/-

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 28, 2010 12:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Gosh Jiminy Cricket combo G's.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 28, 2010 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks

I wasn’t aware of this one.

Free Omri...trade.Noc.

by ForThree on Jan 28, 2010 12:41 PM PST up reply actions  

There are others.

TZ uses it when he does stat posts. I forget what it’s called.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 28, 2010 12:43 PM PST up reply actions  

People also generally ignore the fact that Steve Nash is atop the league in total TO's because he has the ball in his hands all damn game

This is where looking at total team TO’s is very helpful. If a guy is turning the ball over a lot on a low TO team, that probably means he has the ball in his hands a lot like Nash does. If it’s a guy like Gilbert Arenas who turns the ball over a lot on a bad turnover team like the Wiz, than it’s probably a bad sign.

And, for what it’s worth Aykis, I tend to think USG to TOV% is far more telling than USG% to AST%. As you may be aware, along with the master commander TZ, I do not like assists. Maybe the worst stat in all of sports.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 28, 2010 9:25 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't know

Horry was an integral part of 5 championship teams.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 28, 2010 9:51 AM PST up reply actions  

That's why I had USG and TOV first

I wasn’t even going to include AST% but thought what the heck.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement, Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order, and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".

by Aykis16 on Jan 28, 2010 3:33 PM PST up reply actions  

I usually compare USG to Tov% anyway

And completely ignore the Ast%.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 28, 2010 4:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Its why you hate Rondo so much.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement, Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order, and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".

by Aykis16 on Jan 28, 2010 5:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Tyreke and D Wade

From your numbers, Tyreke is fairly comparable with D. Wade’s numbers in his rookie:

Tyreke Evans: USG = 26.2% TOV% = 12.9% AST% = 22.4%
Dwyane Wade (rookie): USG = 25.0% TOV% = 17.3% AST% = 25.1%

Amazing, D. Wade had a substantially higher Turn Over rate, while Tyreke as a little lower assist percentage.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on Jan 28, 2010 4:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Upside

Yes, now look at DWade’s numbers and imagine if Tyreke can develop to that level. That is why so many are Pure PG? It really doesn’t matter. I will take those numbers any day.

by MustangMBS on Jan 28, 2010 4:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Me too!

If these numbers are any prediction of where Tyreke will be in a couple of years, we may very well have what will become one of the top players in basketball. Pretty exciting when you think about it!

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on Jan 28, 2010 4:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Welcome to the club MBS.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Jan 28, 2010 4:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Well-written and well-organized piece - Recommended

Comparing the guards by their average TO’s by minutes rather than games makes sense. I might also add that there was one game this season in which Tyreke had an excessively high number of turnovers. I do not recall off-hand, which game that was. I think he got 6 or 8 turnovers. Anyway, this one game may have skewed his TO average per game. It would be interesting to see what his TO rate would be if that one game was tossed out. I was aware that Sergio’s TO rate is higher than Beno’s. That would support, IMO, using Sergio fewer minutes than Beno per game. Since that is already happening that is a non-issue. But it does support using Beno in the starting line-up over Sergio.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on Jan 28, 2010 2:51 AM PST reply actions  

Thanks

Actually he had his worst game pre-season with 7 TOs, but I didn’t include the pre-season games. Good point though as January showed more improvement than the small percentage increase really shows.

His highest TO regular season TO numbers have been 6 TOs and that has happened in two games. One game was in January, but there are no other games in January with over 3 TOs. This is better than November and December where he had, in each month, 3 games with 5 TOs or more (including the one game at 6 TOs) and a number of 4 TO games.

So, his January numbers are a bit skewed by that one game and overall he is even better than the small % change indicates…

by MustangMBS on Jan 28, 2010 6:32 AM PST up reply actions  

I've actually been impressed with Tyreke's TO rate this season

Before the season, I was firmly in the Tyreke is NaPG camp, and I was expecting him log turnovers at a Monta Ellis-esque rate. But he’s taken care of the ball much better than I expected, and that’s the main reason I’m now on the fence in the Tyreke PG debate. He still dribbles too much and his assist rate isn’t high enough for me to fully support Tyreke as the PG of the future, but I’d like him to have a chance to improve in those areas.

by Charlieb on Jan 28, 2010 6:58 AM PST reply actions  

2.9 TO per 40 minutes

is pretty damn good for a rookie point guard in my opinion.

by Harrisonyaka on Jan 28, 2010 11:09 PM PST reply actions  

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