Why I would be excited to see KM traded
by cbsf on Jan 28, 2010 5:05 PM PST
Email
PrintThis definitely isn't anything ground-breaking, but here's a simple reason why I am very open to a Kevin Martin trade:
The Kings as a team are currently 9th in points scored per game, with 101.43.
According to my calculations, without Kevin Martin, that number jumps to 103.66ppg, which would be 7th in the league.
I'm a big Kevin Martin fan. He is a great scorer. One of the best in the league. But is scoring what this team really needs? It doesn't appear so.
Kevin Martin recently said, "I just don't have the mind-frame to go out there and score 30 anymore," implying that he is focusing on other aspects of his game, such as passing, rebounding and defense. I don't think too many people will disagree, however, that he is not a particularly great passer, rebounder, or defender.
My question is simply this:
If the Kings do not need more offensive firepower, being among the top scoring teams in the league;
and Kevin Martin is a particularly good scorer, and particularly average at everything else,
Do the Kings need Kevin Martin?
While I have no doubt that Kevin Martin's shot will return and he will begin to score 20+ points per game, I don't think it will significantly improve the team by him doing so since scoring was never the problem. The problem is defense (5th at 105ppg from the opposing team). This is why I am not opposed to trading Kevin Martin. Not because I fear that he is ruining team chemistry or that he cannot play well along side Tyreke Evans, but because the Kings already have the pieces to be a perfectly capable offensive team. Martin's trade value could potentially bring a more needed defensive-minded player, which is something they serious lack.
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
142 comments
|
2 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Do the Kings need Kevin Martin?
Do they need a SG that can average 25 a game? Does a bear s**t in the woods?
Good restatement of my question.
Do the Kings need a shooting guard that can average 25 a game?
Since they are scoring among the top ten teams in the league without him, perhaps they could use help in other areas instead.
I'm not opposed to moving MArtin...
..but only if it is for a talent UPGRADE, otherwise, fuhgetabotit! I’m not into trading Martin for the sake of change, for the sake of something different. I’m into trading Martin if it’s in the franchise’s best long term interest. Which thus far, I haven’t see one solitary, legitimate idea from another franchise hinting at an equitable trade, let alone one that favors us.
We can’t do that anymore. We got youngin’s, we got picks, we even got cap space on the horizon. Deal Martin for anything less than a bonafide superstar that FITS with our young players is stupid. /rant.
by Smills91 on Jan 28, 2010 5:24 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Kevin's offensive performance would contribute to a net gain
in overall points while his net defense might contribute a net loss in points. Combining the two is a net overall gain.
While trading Kmart may be an option, I’m not sure there is anybody we have a possibility in getting that can’t be acquired without moving Martin.
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.
Shoot me now
an argument based on a quote taken out of context
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
But
Bolding and double-spacing his argument somehow made is so much more credible.
StR Token Female
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 28, 2010 5:35 PM PST up reply actions
Its the reason I'm not deleting it.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement, Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order, and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Also the fact that he had correct spelling and decent grammar.
And actually was coherent.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement, Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order, and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
by Aykis16 on Jan 28, 2010 5:49 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
this is like asking me if I want a 9 mm slug or a high velocity crossbow bolt to my cranium
both would put me out of the misery of reading this post and since you are comparing differences, and yet all are examples of how to damage a brain.
How much longer until February 18th?
by betweentheeyes on Jan 28, 2010 6:54 PM PST up reply actions
!!!
a tip the hat your way, lieto…
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
that is a hell of an avatar, ElRon...
and I like the suit you’re wearing in that photo, too.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
I'd love to see your "calculations"
Show me how getting rid of Martin increases our scoring.
Also, by your thought process, we should trade Evans as well. Since he is primarily a scorer. Points, who needs ’em?
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
I'm guessing he averaged our points without Kevin
and with Kevin or something.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement, Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order, and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Ahhhh, the "scientific" method
Points are so overated anyway.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
To be fair
I don’t think this post is necessarily advocating to trade kevin because all he does is score. I don’t agree with it and can probably articulate why but I’m at dinner right now. I’m sure there’s plenty around here that can handle this one.
I just wouldn’t want to have this thread turn into another ’let’s trade kevin martin’ whiny post. Show why the author is wrong (or right). I don’t think he/she meant to come off as a troll.
The future begins now...
by edm7 on Jan 28, 2010 5:52 PM PST via mobile reply actions
I understand the concept
Okay, cbsf, let me give you a quick primer in “real” offensive and defensive stats. What you are looking at is how many points we score and how many we give up. You think, “Hey we score plenty of points so we must have a good offense.” “But we give up a lot of points. Therefore the problem must be defense.” The problem is, you are using an optical illusion. Teams with weak defense tend to score more points because they have more opportunities due to the baskets they give up. Two of the three highest offenses, Golden State and Phoenix, also are in the three worst for points given up. Were they to improve their defense, their points would also generally go down.
When you take a closer look at our “great” offense, you will find that our fg% is actually 17th. And our FT% is 27th. Not quite the offensive juggenaut you thought it was, eh? And our defense is actually only 21st in opponent fg%. Not good by a long shot. But really no that much worse than our offense.
When K-Mart is on, he draws more fouls and shoots a higher percentage. This forces oponents to take the ball out of bounds, giving them fewer fast break opportunities. By drawing fouls, he also gets the other team into the penalty more quickly, again allowing us to score baskets which slows down the other team’s offense. So when K-Mart is scoring like he usually does, it not only improves our offense, but our defense as well.
The truth is that right now, we are not a good offensive or defensive team. A big part of that is because our big guys are not especially good defensive stoppers. Trading Martin might get you a better defensive player (depending on who you think you could get.), but it would not come close to fixing our offensive woes. And you would be replacing him with either Beno, who is a worse defender, or Greene who is a better defender, but a huge drop off on the offensive side of the ball.
Rather than trade our second best scorer. We are better off to pick up a quality big man by trading expirings, or players who currently come off the bench for us, or through the draft. This is why when someone shouts, “Trade K-Mart” in a crowded movie theater, we usually either ignore you or mock you. The “stats” you are using are not stats that look at the entire picture..
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
by SavageBeast on Jan 28, 2010 6:18 PM PST up reply actions 9 recs
And this exactly what i had in mind
Game over
The future begins now...
by edm7 on Jan 28, 2010 6:22 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
SB sporting those patient parent skills
rec’d for respect
by betweentheeyes on Jan 28, 2010 6:57 PM PST up reply actions
I would also look at our TS% and Off and Def Efficiencies.
Even then Kevin could catch fire and change things. The season is not over and we are looking for long-term help.
Rec'd
Father of the "Natt this!" movement, Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order, and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Yeah, K-Mart is good
but Sergio’s, Beno’s, Tyreke’s, Casspi’s, Udoka’s, and Greene’s emergence have made his presence less needed. The Kings need a solid big man (either offensively or defensively) more than a solid guard. If the Kings can get one without getting rid of K-Mart then that’s awesome, but if another team wants K-Mart in a trade for a good big, I don’t see why it’s so ridiculous to even consider it or much less speculate about it.
It's taboo to talk about trading K-Mart. It will bring you 7 years of bad luck.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
You'd be excited to see Kevin Martin traded you say?
For who? Calderon? Josh Howard?
Father of the "Natt this!" movement, Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order, and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
+1
This is exactly my sentiment. The original post was well written and had a respectful tone to it. It didn’t rip Martin unnecesarily and expoused the valid point that the Kings defense is their primary problem. Not an unreasonable post – just a fan’s opinion, but…
If you are going to write this, then offer a realistic solution as well. Tossing the premise out there that the Kings would be better off without Martin and with a more defensive minded player is fine, but who is that player, and how do the Kings acquire him? Without that, it’s a whole lot of nothing…
"Granted, this is not a great situation, but when all you have is lemons, you add some vodka to dull the pain..."
But the Kings aren't scoring like they were at the beginning of the year
To put it into perspective, in the final 15 games before Kevin Martin came back, the Kings scored an average of 100.8 points per game. That would put the Kings right in between Houston and Cleveland in scoring (14 and 13 respectively). However, that also included 2 OT games so if you change it to points per 48 minutes, the Kings scored an average of 99.4 points—that firmly places Sacramento in the lower portion of the league right in between #17 NO and #18 Indiana.
Since the return of Kevin Martin, Thompson, Casspi and Udrih have slumped even more. One could say that this is because of the return of Martin, but keep in mind they were already beginning their slumps before his return. If you include the 7 games since Martin’s return in Philadelphia (a total of 22 games), the Kings have averaged 97.8 points per game, good for 22nd in the league (right above Philly). If you go by points per 48, it dips to 96.85—right in between Minny and LAC at 26th.
by nobodyinparticular on Jan 28, 2010 5:57 PM PST reply actions
Aw Geez.... Not This Sh!t Again!!!
"I dont just go tatoo any muthafucka on my chest! dis is ma life line! my LEGACY!!!
What shit?
I don’t do shit. please explain. Be specific.
By the way, I looked, and the Kings were down about 7 a game for Kev’s 6 road games.
Hey, you have an avatar now... classy.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 28, 2010 8:23 PM PST up reply actions
And a very good avatar at that.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Yes, that is a hell of an avatar, ElRon!
And I like the suit you’re wearing in that photo, too.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Sometimes we don't appreciate what we have...
I worry about that with Kevin Martin. I am concerned that he could be traded away and then later the Kings regret that decision. Especially, if he gets onto a playoff team and is putting up 30 and more points per game. Our luck, we trade him for someone who either doesn’t fit in, gets injured, or leaves at the first opportunity.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
Watch a few fourth quarters
This team still has a long way to go offensively. And points scored is not the best way to measure actual offensive production.
And, as others have said, what calculations are you using to come up with the idea that the team is better offensively without Kevin? Show your work, please.
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
by otis29 on Jan 28, 2010 6:41 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I never meant to imply that the team is better offensively without Kevin Martin (although I see how you can read into that when I compare ppg with and without him).
Instead, I’m simply making the point that the Kings seemed to be a very good offensive team without KM. Savagebeast showed how the statistics I used are oversimplified, and it’s true that I don’t follow and analyze advanced statistics. However, from watching the games, I was very pleased with the ball movement and open shots the team was getting for the first 2 months without KM.
The fourth quarters are a problem, which is natural for a young team. However, Tyreke Evans is showing himself to be a player you can trust with the game on the line, and I believe with a little experience, the young guys can learn to play their offense the same way in the fourth quarter as they do the other three.
Would you admit
That you are taking a small amount of data (where Martin has absolutely played poorly) to buttress your argument, while ignoring three prior years of stellar offensive play?
Why would anyone expect that kind of statistical analysis to be accurate?
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
I’m not implying that the team is better offensively without Kevin Martin, nor am I denying that Kevin Martin is a proven offensive player. I’m simply saying that to me, the Kings are a good offensive team without him (but not because he is gone).
What I’m getting at is that for good teams, the whole is greater than the sum of it’s parts. Also, fans tend to put a higher value on a player’s offensive skills than on his defensive skills, which I think is wrong. Kevin Martin is valued very highly as an offensive player, but the Kings need players that fit the needs of the team most. To trade Kevin Martin, whose value (offense) isn’t one of the top needs, for a player who does fulfill one of the top needs (defense), I believe, will make the overall team better now and in the long run.
that is true
but how many guys on the Kings can score at the end of the game
answer only Evans
Martin adds a much needed dimension for the Kings at the end of the game
Well I disagree with your premise
That the offense is solid. And you’ve made your judgments based on this premise.
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
the efficiency of our scoring ability as a team can be summed up in each 4th quarter
There is no offense or efficiency to speak of. Its panic mode and we crumble almost every time. That’s not what I would call a very good offense.
by sac_faithful on Jan 29, 2010 6:01 AM PST up reply actions
I was afraid some people would over-react to this post since many here seem to be extremely sensitive to any sentence with the words “trade” and “Kevin Martin” in it.
I definitely think some of you are reading much too deeply into this.
“lietothegirls”: the argument is no way based on Kevin Martin’s quote. The quote is simply a lead in to the point that Kevin Martin is a great scorer, but mediocre in other areas.
“Savage Beast”: I never meant to imply that getting rid of Martin would increase the Kings’ scoring. Only that the Kings seem to be a a good enough scoring team without him. You have very good points in your second post which are very hard to disagree with. To that, all I can say is that to me (and maybe to others?) the Kings’ offense looked very fluid and proficient for the first two months of the season (without KM). To be clear, I am not implying that KM is the reason for the recent lag. But I do believe that without him, the Kings still have the right players to be a very good offensive team.
nobodyinparticular has some good points and edm7 is a voice of reason. But this is my first post, and I must say that I’m a little disappointed in some of the more condescending responses. You may find many faults in the argument, but there’s no use being rude about it.
Maybe if we hadn't seen it 50 times already
Its better written than most but boils down to ‘Lets trade him’ without any really good reasons or other options being suggested.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 28, 2010 6:49 PM PST up reply actions
Sorry if I came across a little harshly
But as many people have pointed out lately, it’s tough to base decisions on watching a few (or even a lot of games.) There’s just too much that the csual observer misses. That why some of teh best teams now have fulltime stat guys to analyze the game and see what is really going on. Compared to many on this site I am a novice. But if you let them, the folks around here will raise your basketball IQ. Of course you have to put up with a little crap too! :)
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
cbsf - as one of the rude responders
let me apologize for my impatience. It has been a long January and a blanket of poorly written poorly drafted posts have appeared since Kevin Martin became injured and have increased exponentially. The occassional cry of dismay has become a klaxxon of misery. LImits have been passed, head banging has resulted in fractured skulls, I can no longer drive over a bridge without sighing. It is bad.
So sorry. oh, and your post. I don’t get it – why isn’t this a thread in an already posted piece?
by betweentheeyes on Jan 28, 2010 7:13 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks betweentheeyes
To answer your question, I don’t know. I just thought it would be fun to post something for once!
And you actually did a pretty good job.
You avoided the:
I’m going to write everything in one big block of text without using any punctuation whatsoever so that people will look at this wall of words and immediately ignore anything I might ever have to say
and the
BY PUTTING EVERYTHING IN CAPS AND ADDING LOTS OF EXCLAMATION POINTS I WILL MAKE SURE PEOPLE TAKE WHAT I SAY SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and the
Everyone on this blog is part of a huge conspiracy against me. you all think alike you commie bastards. And I’m the only person on this aite who could possibly have an original thought because you all worship at the feet of . . .
So though, I don’t agree with your sentiment, I definitely give you props fro being willing to state an opinion many don’t hold without coming across as a jerk. Good first post.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
Ahh but which one?
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
I can't see LPA as Marge, Edith or Sharon or as Uncle Charlie
by betweentheeyes on Jan 28, 2010 9:06 PM PST up reply actions
Howz about June Cleaver?
StR Token Female
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 28, 2010 9:22 PM PST up reply actions
maybe that:
vacuuming with your pearls on, and of couse when you post, pearls before swine
by betweentheeyes on Jan 28, 2010 9:27 PM PST up reply actions
Rec for using the word klaxxon.
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
I'll be the first to tell you
I’m definitely not the voice of reason around here and honestly, I could’ve been me saying some of those things too. You just caught me at a very nice time.
Like many have explained, cbsf, we have discussed this topic many many times and I believe we’re still waiting for someone to make a real good argument (backed up with good stats and some good common sense) as to why we would need to part with Kevin Martin right this moment. Most here realize he’s a good trade chip and could net us something good. But then again, most just want to give this team some time and see what we truly have in that backcourt and see how everything else fits.
We will get another big guy, one way or another (trade with other pieces or draft) but with a team that lacks talent (yes! we need more), it just doesn’t make sense to give up one of the biggest proven pieces we already have. Plus, as other have shown as well, most of your analysis is a bit simple and may not hold completely.
I’ve learned a lot by just reading around here, I hope you can do the same. You definitely don’t seem like the regular “let’s trade KEvin Martin because he sucks and shoots too many FTs” troll so that’s why, just like anyone new around here, you deserve the benefit of the doubt.
The future begins now...
I haven't responded yet
your post was fine in my opinion, and I think most of the veterans here will see that after a couple of deep breaths.
To respond, as SavageBeast said, we’re actually not a good offensive team, we just score a lot of points, there’s a big difference. Real good offensive teams score when they need to, and how many times this year have we seen a double-digit 4th quarter lead evaporate because we couldn’t stop the bad guys and we couldn’t score ourselves against tightened up defense.
Also, its difficult to project those first few weeks of ball movement into an entire season. Those weeks we were playing well were largely against bad teams at home, the best possible environment for our guys to look good.
So, I disagree with your conclusions, but the case you made is fine. It gave a lot of people the chance to see some advanced statistics and learn what they mean thanks to SavageBeast’s write-up.
Free Omri...trade.Noc.
Hmmm....just being a devils advocate (not that cbsf is the devil...are you?)
If there was an opportunity to trade KMart for a good defensive player/s like the Nuggets’ Nene +1 more player or Kaman or Camby or Horford or Josh Smith or KPerkins, would we do it?
Im thinking yes for Horford or Josh Smith (with them either giving us an extra player or them taking off one of our onerous contracts), yes for Kaman but not for Camby alone and depends on who comes with Nene.
There can only be one Noce!
I actually would want something involving DeAndre Jordan
he has a ton of potential and can be a huge shot blocker.
Kaman is not the player he was
This is from ClipperBlog
Among centers, Kaman is second in the league in usage, but only 14th in PER. His true shooting percentage is 53.9 . . . And his rebounding rate is the lowest of his career since his rookie season. Once a premier shot-blocker, Chris is now only 50th in the league in block rate among guys who play 15 minutes per game.
Not that I wouldn’t still like to have him on my team. But I really have to think about what I’m giving up and who I replc him with. Do you really want to start Beno and Tyreke? Or Tyreke and Donte?
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
I actually think Tyreke and Donté, in time, could be a terrific starting backcourt
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 28, 2010 8:30 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe maybe not
In time, anything could happen. But right now it doesn’t work very well. Personally, I seriously doubt a 6’ 10’ player is going to be a good shooting guard.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
NaSG
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Jan 28, 2010 8:55 PM PST up reply actions
He can if he's not a defensive mismatch (which I'd argue Donté usually is not)
and if Donté’s offense develops around moving without the ball and hitting open shots (from beautiful ‘Reke drive-and-kickouts), he could be spectacularly effective without having to score 20ppg. Obviously I can’t say that this is sure to happen, but I think it’s reasonable to suggest that our future may not be doomed without Kevin Martin on this team (if we can trade him for good value).
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 28, 2010 8:56 PM PST up reply actions
That would be incredibly interesting and awesome.
Tyreke and Donté in the backcourt is like Bibby and Christie except grown by 6 inches.
That is, if they both continue to develop.
My question is if The Show could really guard the 2 well, or would he be used more in a zone type defense. Is he quick and athletic enough to cover smaller 2 guards like Delonté (I guess he gets an accent too) or Montâ (that cant be the right type of ‘a’) or Jason Terry or Jamal Crawford or Will Bynum.
Much like the experiment of playing Kevin Durant at shooting guard, I am not sure Greene is meant for that. In fact, I actually look forward to him developing into a player at both forward positions. But certainly Donté at shooting guard is useful in some situations.
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
I know some members of the Kings have talked about Donte as a SG
I just don’t see it, he doesn’t have the “I’ve dribbled the ball my entire life” ball handling that guards need to have. Even Kevin’s ball handling is way, way ahead of Donte’s in my opinion.
I do think he has a future as a small forward or small ball power forward, depending on how he develops, but if I had to pick, he’ll be a small forward slated to guard the best opposing wing each night, run the floor and shoot open jumpers. Being that guy is entirely in his natural skill set.
Free Omri...trade.Noc.
I concur
Donte’ at the 2 is a pipe dream, IMO, and for exactly the reason ForThree mentions. He just doesn’t have NBA level ball handling ability.
Oh, and he’s like what? 6’10"? 6’11"? Wow! wouldn’t you be worried that opposing guards would be stripping the ball out of his hands between dribbles!
Anyway, he’s a decent perimeter shooter but certainly not at the level you want from an NBA Shooting Guard. Making Greene a 2 would be like giving a Corvette to a 17 year old. A license to go crazy! I’m thinkin’ there would be some ugly shots from the outside.
Donte’ is an intriguing talent but I’d say he’s a 4 before he’s a 2, and he’s not a 4 either, (unless he gets quite a bit stronger).
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
The growth in his shooting this year has been significant
This summer we had hundreds of posts of: “Donte should never shoot the 3”.
Now? When he’s open and sets his feet, as far I’m concerned he can shoot that all day and I’m good with it. That’s a lot of progress. That’s a lot different though than pure shooting from all angles and off the dribble like you’d expect an elite shooting guard to do.
Donte’s done everything this year to make me think he’s got a good chance to develop into a reliable shooter. Doesn’t mean he will, but it seems like he’s on the right track.
Free Omri...trade.Noc.
Absolutely!
Donte’ has clearly worked hard developing his outside game and he’s made some serious advances. Not enough to be an NBA 2, but really good progress.
This will help him greatly if he’s going to be starting 3, because he can use his athleticism to his advantage and blow past defenders if they guard him to closely.
I will say I think the idea of Donte’ as a 2 is fun to roll around in your mind. Can you imagine trying to figure out how to match up with a 6’6" point guard and a 6’11 shooting guard!
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Martin for Josh Smith or Horford would be an absolute steal for Sacramento.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement, Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order, and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
it would make the Pau Gasol deal look reasonable
by betweentheeyes on Jan 28, 2010 9:08 PM PST up reply actions
The Pau Gasol deal was pretty reasonable
Have you not seen how his brother has played?
Marc is developing into one of the better centers in the league. I think he has even more potential than his brother did in Memphis.
no it wouldn't
Pau Gasol is better than either of those players, and Martin is a little better than Marc Gasol
Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."
You guys are so off base, NOBODY WOULD TRADE A SUPERSTAR for him, nuggets would not trade nene and a player for martin, hawks would not trade horford or smith for him either. GP would do both of those trades in a nano second. You geeks need to stop looking at true shooting pecentages and pers. Hell the clipps would’nt trade caman for him either. ou opinion of martins value is crazy. I been a season ticket holder for 6 years and Ive never seen him stay in front of his man on D. I guess we’ll see what we end up with when he’s traded, but i can guarantee you it won’t be a superstar.
I don't think the best way to get your point across is calling someone a geek.
Its rather rude and disrespectful. I notice a lot of unsportsmanlike things that go on when people don’t agree lately and its is rather childish IMO. I am glad some people can man up and apologize though. At least others are recognizing it too.
I didn't know they let 10 year olds become season ticket holders.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement, Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order, and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Why would the Kings want to trade K-Mart for a golf club?
Noun
caman m. (genitive and plural camain )
a stick or club for playing shinty, hurling or golf
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
Not a bad trade, if you think about it
hard to find a good shinty stick these days.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 28, 2010 8:32 PM PST up reply actions
Especially one that can rebound!
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
your right , I meant to say stat geeks (although that doesnt make it better),point taken.
No more disrespect.
My apologize if I was being too harsh myself
It was just a trend I have noticed and while I am new here, it is still something that I think all of us Kings fans can work on as a group. I mean we are all Kings fans and should treat each other as we want others to treat ourselves.
Don't start getting too nice
This is STR after all. If someone doesn’t get reamed every day, we start to get antsy.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
Soft
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 28, 2010 8:32 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Jan 28, 2010 8:56 PM PST up reply actions
Groovy
Another newbie trying to wussify us are you? That’s original.
This blog operates fine as it is. There’s some dissension at times, but IT’S A SPORTS BLOG!
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
otis, you're confusing me
didn’t you write a few eloquent paragraphs just a few days ago about us being too sarcastic, especially to new people?
Free Omri...trade.Noc.
Point taken
However…I was talking about the response to substantive remarks, whether pro or anti-Kings. And I certainly wasn’t calling for everyone to go kumbaya up in here.
sacman’s original post was poorly written, poorly researched, and overly confrontational. Those kind of “contributors” are fair game, as far as I’m concerned.
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
Otis is exactly right
Imagine walking into the packed sports bar of any major team and shouting:
You geeks need to stop looking at true shooting pecentages and pers. Hell the clipps would’nt trade caman for him either. ou opinion of martins value is crazy. I been a season ticket holder for 6 years and Ive never seen him stay in front of his man on D
At very least you’d get cursed, and more than likely you’d get taken outside and taught some manners. STR is basically a better informed, more intelligent, on-line sports bar. So, yeah, you can say what you think. But when you start insulting the regulars and making baseless acuusations combined with obviously false hyperbole, don’t cry when the insults start flying.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
by SavageBeast on Jan 29, 2010 9:24 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It's a lot like a sports bar
Half the posters are drunk, and there are even a few desperate people lurking around at closing time.
StR Token Female
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 29, 2010 9:54 AM PST up reply actions
Plus the poor beer selection and generally crappy food
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 29, 2010 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
Did I not tell him that it was not the best way to get his point across
All I am saying is that some people on here can be a real a-hole when it isn’t deserving. You figure most of us are adults here and can learn to be civil.
Dont be too nice says the SavageBeast. I just meant people only tend to focus on numbers instead of impact on the floor. The best defenders dont always get the most blocks or the most rebounds thats all. Just like the best cornerbacks in the nfl don’t always get a bunch of ints. No disputing a defensive player in the middle IS the kings most pressing need, offense will always be there for us, with all the wing players we have.
Yes and no
True, a great player will not necessarily have a great PER. However, it is impossible for a bad player to have a great PER.
More simply, players wont always get stats for the things they do, but, they cant get good stats without doing good things.
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Jan 28, 2010 8:59 PM PST up reply actions
Oh yes they can
You should read “The No-Stats All-Star” if you haven’t already. They go into detail on this on page 3. If a point guard passes up an open shot for an assist, even if they get that assist, they have made a bad play. If a forward forces a bad shot, even if they make it, it is still a bad play. If a center blocks a shot into the fifth row when they could’ve grabbed it and started a fast break, bad play.
Although I get what you’re saying in regards to PER.
"You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, and the three most powerful men in America are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon.' Need I say more?"
-Chris Rock
The Kings have too many needs to give away proven players
We will add another big man in next year’s draft and always have some pieces to play with if we wantto trade for someone in the near future. Unfortunately there’s not that many good big men out there that could help this team and that will also fit in the future puzzle. You’re just going to have to be patient and I know it must suck.
And please, learn to use the reply button. It makes for better conversation. Thanks
The future begins now...
we need to trade him
i dont understand why people are supporting kevin staying on the team. just because he can drop 30 on any given night he deserves a spot on this team; this isnt always the truth. lets ask, why do we need to keep kevin? he’s very injury prone and has an incredibly inflated ego. best backcourt in the league? give me a break. although the trifecta of greene, udoka, and casspi were somewhat slumping before his return, i would much rather see them on the floor than martin. we need to stop putting our faith in our offensive weapons and begin to focus defensively. offense comes and goes, but defense is static.
what?
“just because he can drop 30 on any given night he deserves a spot on this team; this isnt always the truth.”
“has an incredibly inflated ego.”
….Do you know what basketball is?
Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."
Where do you get the sense K-Mart has a huge ego?
You killed your argument when you try to make it.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement, Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order, and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Re:
CBSF – There are way too many posts that demonstrate the kind of weird stuff that gets posted about Martin and trading him. All too often it is inaccurate, distorted, and wrongheaded. This is why people get so frustrated with these posts.
Martin is all too often portrayed as some kind of egomaniac and his game tends to get completely misrepresented. Few give him credit for being an offensive weapon who can drop 30 adn just go on to say trade him. Trade one of the elite scorers in the NBA. Yeah, he is one of those guys and yet people say to trade him for expiring contracts or players who are not near as good. It happens ALL THE TIME. There is no acknowledgment of his actual value.
People spend hours posting about the value of Martin and all the truths about him and his game, but you turn around and there is always somebody else still distorting him and his game. They just ignore all the stuff that has been written because it doesn’t support their viewpoint. It is draining to keep it up, but people do it because to remain silent is wrong. If the uninformed and basketball ignorants were the only voices speaking out on this subject then that is just a sad state.
So we dust ourselves off, continue to address the unending crap, and can’t wait until the god damned trade deadline is past.
There are lots of things wrong with your piece and a lot of it has been pointed out. And, I want to point out that the above comments and replies to your post were nice. You state that they are rude, but IMHO you don’t know what rude is yet then. Not StR rude that is reserved for the trolls and idiots that seem to come out of the woodwork over trading Martin. You didn’t get the benefit, sarcasm as it is no benefit, of fully experiencing the scorn and ridicule that these sorts of post often get because you could actually string enough sentences together correctly. That isn’t a high bar to hit, but that is what we have come to now.
IMO you got perhaps too much credit here. You don’t propose any options or examples of what you suggest. You don’t provide a calculation that demonstrates any utility and as has been pointed out you base your numbers on the worst data possible while ignoring years worth of data that doesn’t support your argument. That is such a cardinal sin stats-wise it can’t be overlooked. You really don’t make an effective argument for trading Martin at all. So I think you got a lot of slack here. Too much slack and it could have been a lot worse.
There are way better options for getting defensive talent that we can use and trading away exceptional talent for little return is just boneheaded. You don’t give up talent like that and ignore that there are other options that could be used instead. You keep the talent you have and try to use expiring contracts and such to get more talent WITHOUT giving up as much as you are getting.
Good luck in future postings
by MustangMBS on Jan 28, 2010 11:44 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
In other words cbsf
If you ever, ever, mention trading Kevin Martin around here, and you don’t back up it with a trade scenario that involves perfectly matched salaries and getting elite defensive talent in return, or at least involve a highly in-depth view of the detailed statistical analysis you did before posting, you will get railed.
Honestly people, all cbsf did was post a very valid thought — do we have enough pieces that would allow us to trade trade Kevin Martin for something else we might need. What is so wrong with the thought of using his high value to bring in someone that might help the team in other areas? His original post said nothing of trading Martin for merely expiring or draft picks, nor did he mention anything to distort him.
It’s not like cbsf posted without giving good reasons for a trade. He gave a great one — Martin is a great scorer, but we already score the ball pretty well…maybe we can trade him to shore up some other areas. There is nothing wrong with that mindset, regardless of whether he has a ton of stats to back it up. And it’s not like he’s completely wrong in thinking this either.
Please, please, please show me where cbsf got "railed" on
For every person who thinks he was up in the night, someone else agreed with him. For every person who gave him—mild—crap, another person complimented him. Honestly, if your skin is so thin that you can’t handle this kind of rejection, you shouldn’t be posting. Try being an author where a ticked off reader posts, “Only read this book if you’ve just swallowed poison and need to throw up.”
Come on guys (and gals) man/woman up a little. If you want tea and chit chat, join a knitting circle. If you want total acceptance go to your mother. If you want forgiveness, go to your priest. This is a freaking sports blog! People are allowed to disagree—even in strong terms.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
by SavageBeast on Jan 29, 2010 10:18 AM PST up reply actions
NO THEY ARE NOT!
This is StR. We are Groupthink.
StR Token Female
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 29, 2010 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
Did a reader really make that comment about you?
Harsh. I plan on using it sometime.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 29, 2010 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
Shown below -
Group photo of last year’s StR “Spring Fling.”
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 29, 2010 10:55 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
This confused the hell out of me, until I realized it was supposed to be a reply to LPA
and then I got it. And then I liked it.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 29, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
Sheep?
Well, hello there!
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
by otis29 on Jan 29, 2010 12:13 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think there's a typo there
“Douche” is spelled with a “D”.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 29, 2010 12:15 PM PST up reply actions
I was thinking more...
StR Token Female
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 30, 2010 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
What?
He posted a thought with little else. It was just a thought without much else. And the feedback given was longer than his post. Looks like he barely made the minimum and that was because a mere thought without much substance doesn’t produce much text. Everybody else was too damned nice and that is my point. Not that you have to have some flawless argument, but present something of substance.
We score the ball well? Really? In which quarter or half do you mean because we can’t seem to get our shit together for one whole damned game. We either start like shit and half to come back from way behind or we start great and lose in the 4th. Hell, GSW game was novel in that we gutted out an ugly win despite falling on our faces offensively at the end of the game. You call that scoring WELL? How about our need for consistency and Martin is our only proven consistent scorer? How about that? We need it badly and we should trade it away?
Should I go on or would I just be railing you? If you call the above getting railed then you have not been on the receiving end of much here. Lucky for you.
So what if he thinks we score the ball well? I don’t think there’s anything wrong if that’s why he believes, and wants to use that as part of his trade thoughts. Martin is consistent, and has been for years, but we also have a need for interior defense. Why not consider using Martin’s value to address other needs?
Some posters like to include more detail or substance in their posts. And that’s fine, I personally enjoy those write-ups. But I don’t think it is necessary in order to share a thought. Your original post stated that cbsf got off light with what he called ‘rudeness’ earlier. What part of his post really warranted any rudeness at all, regardless of degree?
Did say it deserved "rudeness"?
No, that wasn’t my point at all. CBSF said that those posting comments were rude. I really didn’t get that at all and he definitely didn’t get railed. Posting minimum length posts with no substance deserve to get bluntly called on that, especially when they re-hash something that has been posted and re-posted ad nauseum. It doesn’t add anything.
I think you missed my point. You said we score the ball well, as did he, and it seemed like you were saying that we don’t have offensive problems and don’t need Martin that bad. I just disagree given our inconsistent and bipolar offense.
The point is we need that consistent offense. BADLY. Yet, it might be a good idea to create a hole in our offense only to fill a hole in our defense. That doesn’t get us anywhere. We just trade problems.
Not what I expected.
My purpose in this post certainly wasn’t to discuss blog manners/etiquette and it’s unfortunate that it went down that path. I don’t want to go into it in too much detail because it looks like it was addressed pretty well on the homepage, but after reading through some of these comments, I will say that disagreement and even rudeness do not hurt my feelings. That was never the issue. Rudeness, I believe, is simply the nature of the internet when anyone can say anything and keep it anonymous and masked behind a screen name. Most people would not act the same way in person to someone they just met as they do online, because there aren’t any social repercussions on the internet.
That being said, the most important qualities for a successful blog community are content and civility. This site has been one of the best at maintaining a generally high level of both. That is why I was a little disappointed at some of the responses that were both uncivil and lacking in content. It is true that I am only minimally involved in this website, and that my post was rather simplistic and not particularly novel. But what I wanted to do was to offer a general argument against a very popular belief that KM must/should/will not be traded. My simple idea was that yes, KM is a great player, but a team is greater than the sum of it’s individual parts, and perhaps the Kings would be better off with an equally great defensive player, or even multiple good role players. No, I didn’t have much evidence, but I figured that’s what further discussion could bring up.
What I don’t understand is, if person thinks that a post is so baseless that it should have never been written, then why does he waste the time to respond with an insult?
I think the immediate reaction was, “Oh no, not this again.” People didn’t recognize the screen name and misunderstood my intentions. To some of the initial responses that were posted, I had the urge to respond with an “F You” type of response, so I can see how things can snowball into a taunt-fest. But I didn’t, and early on in the post, when people noticed that, I think they realized I wasn’t here just to be a jerk and they prevented this thread from going in another direction.
We meet people who we disagree with every day, but only on the internet is it acceptable to disrespect them for their opinion. I hope this site can remain one of the exceptions to that rule.
This is sad
But your comment is far more purposeful than the original fanpost you wrote.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
I just reread the entire thing
Your initial fanpost, the comments…everything. I really don’t see why you are so bent out of shape. There’s a few smart alecky remarks, but for the most part there’s a decent amount of tangible discussion going on here. And there were quite a few people that complimented your coherent writing.
Problem is, there’s been so much discussion of trading Kevin Martin (you really aren’t on an island with this idea) that you’d have to bring something pretty fresh to the forefront to convince the majority of Kevin defenders that your idea has merit. I do see references to certain data analysis, but nothing really compelling in that regard.
To summarize, I (just my opinion) think you were treated pretty fairly considering the subject matter.
It’s up to you, but in the future, I’d recommend that you expect the debate to be a little less Marquess of Queensbury, and a little more MMA.
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
I'm not sure where you're reading that I am so bent out of shape.
I made a two sentence comment about some of the early rude replies. I also mentioned in my most recent post that early on in the thread, people steered it to civility.
I am surprised that it turned into such an extensive discussion on etiquette, but since it has, and since I unintentionally started it in that direction, I decided to address it.
Frankly, I would hope that what I say applies to more than only this thread, because reading a along string of, “this guy is a moron” replies (I’m not talking about the 3 or 4 in this thread, but to others that I have seen), no matter how bad the original post, taints the image of this site and it’s members. I believe, however, that this site is top notch because of it’s members, so it would be unfortunate for that to get out of hand.
Perhaps the below would explain the impression of you as bent
I had the urge to respond with an "F You" type of response
I got that you were bent. I think that part of it may be less that people are being disrespectful than they are just way more blunt than they otherwise would be. Sure there are some that are just plain rude in general, but mostly people will just tell you straight what they think with no niceties. It can be tough to take at first. I know as I have been there.
The truth is, I came here to talk about KM and the Kings. Not blog etiquette.
Blunt, disrespectful, rude, whatever you want to call it, it’s not what I came on here for. I hate to rehash this example because he apologized for this, but:
this is like asking me if I want a 9 mm slug or a high velocity crossbow bolt to my cranium
both would put me out of the misery of reading this post and since you are comparing differences, and yet all are examples of how to damage a brain.
Comments like this are not reflective of a community that I want to be a part of. These are too common in the threads of many novice posters for me to feel comfortable here. And the thing is, if I feel this way, then there are certainly others who feel that way as well and who have been driven off because of it.
by cbsf on Jan 29, 2010 5:06 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I never worry about being tainted or my image
Since my image is that I’m a tainted, well, you know, taint.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Say it taint so, pookey!!
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
by Mucho Moss on Jan 29, 2010 5:36 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
tainted!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3fCFkl-BFU&feature=related
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Very nice MM!
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
You're getting close, but still not quite getting it I think
Its the internet, where the only rule essentially boils down to “don’t do something so egregiously stupid that a mod notices and bans you”. That’s it, and this community is of probably 500 people that at least post once in a while.
In any group that size, you’re going to find people you like discussing things with and people you think are asshats. Pay attention, find the people you like and converse with them, contribute to other threads as you see fit and just tolerate everything else. You don’t have to like everything here, in fact, you’d have to be the most ridiculously understanding and patient person on the planet to enjoy all of the people that post here because as you said, its too easy to be an asshat.
Free Omri...trade.Noc.
A culture of acceptability is what makes it OK to be an “asshat”. Every member who posts is responsible for creating the culture of this site. There’s no reason this site has to foster it.
Anyways, this whole discussion is getting to be more than I bargained for and I don’t want to focus on the negative aspects of this site because there are many good ones as well.
Over and out.
all I'm trying to say is
be one of the good posters
talk to the other good posters
try to ignore the asshats as much as possible, and things will work out.
If you make an effort to be a “good poster” I believe you’ll find people you enjoy conversing with.
Free Omri...trade.Noc.
If the right deal came around...
If the right deal came around… maybe. But I’m pretty convinced that this team just needs some time together. While they were a better team before, that was because players were making their shots. There is a disruption of chemistry with KM’s return, but that is pretty normal actually. And the fact that KM is willing to change his game says to me that he is not a gripy whiny player that is going to complain about his averages. And every year, he improves. I’m not trying to make KM out to be MJ, but I can say that it’s a stark difference from a lot of players attitudes. The grass could get a lot browner. He isn’t coming in the locker room with a gun for example. I think in the long run, this team will find that chemistry. We are not talking about a team of veterans that can adjust to any situation yet. Let’s not jump off the cruise ship because they ran out of pepsi.
by Hapasan on Jan 30, 2010 7:55 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
So can we count this as an endoresement to keep Kevin?
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
Excuse the spelling: should be...
endorsement
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
Trade KMart only if
Let me lay out how and when the Kings should trade KMart. This guy is ready to explode next year. The progressive development you see with Kmart has been masked and muted due to injuries and contextualized by a poor quality team with poor coaching.
With the solid coaching that we now have and the talent context positive and (biggest point) starting next year KMart is going to be in the top 15 of the NBA. Major league all star. Not quite in the Kobe, Lebron, Wade tier but just a shade below. Look for the major defensive upgrade. When the explosion occurs then you make the trade and it will be teams through out the league bidding the price up.
But I say hold on to your horses and hold on to a guy who is just a notch below Wade. Don’t trade. With Evans moving to a superstar status in two years you need the Scotty Pipen for him. This is KMart.
Wow.
This guy is ready to explode next year.
That sounds so much worse than a sprained ankle or wrist surgery.
Soft!
StR Token Female
by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 2, 2010 10:05 AM PST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
NBA Playoffs Content Module
Related FanPosts on Sactown Royalty
Related FanShots on Sactown Royalty
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Mike Miller loses shoe, plays two possessions without it, Pacers don’t score (VIDEO)
- Larry Bird calls his Indiana Pacers “soft” following the team’s physical Game 5 loss to Miami
- Dexter Pittman’s elbow to Lance Stephenson’s throat is just one of three nasty hits in Miami/Indiana’s Game 5 (VIDEO)
- Behind the Box Score, where the Miami Heat split the Indiana Pacers in two
- Metta World Peace calls Mike Brown fat
