Tyreke Returns, But Kings Can't Catch Mavericks
by Tom Ziller on Jan 3, 2010 6:04 AM PST
in Recaps
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PrintThe Mavericks are really, really good. The Sacramento offense, so fluid this season, was far from sharp Saturday night, and credit Dallas for much of that. The Kings turned the ball over 18 times, and I'd guess a substantial majority were forced by the quick, smart Dallas defense. The Mavericks also remembered the lessons of these teams' first match-up, in which Tyreke Evans went hog wild in the paint, and mitigated the star Kings guard by packing the paint. Only Omri Casspi made the Mavs pay for that strategy: he went 4-6 from three, while the rest of the team combined to shoot 2-12.
The Kings offense frequently looked off-balance when it worked to get perimeter jumpers, and sloppy when it went inside. Jason Thompson and Spencer Hawes each had three turnovers ... and Dirk Nowitzki and Drew Gooden each had two steals. Evans missed a score of inside shots (4-6 at the rim, but 1-6 from 5-10 feet) but otherwise played a clean game (six assists, no turnovers). Omri really looked like the Kings' best weapon most of the game, and the stats agreed: 22 points on 62 percent True Shooting from Casspi, with 11 rebounds, four assists, a steal and a block. He was brilliant, and he is brilliant. Hurray for Omri.
It should probably be discussed at some point soon whether Casspi is the long-term answer at small forward for a Evans-Martin and Thompson-Hawes team. He rebounds well defensively, is at least spirited on defense, and shoots like a star. There's no one in better position on the current roster, for sure, and by the time Casspi gains some substantial NBA experience he might end up as the best fit. I cannot wait to see Casspi and Martin play together for long stretches.
Grant Napear, if I may, is not helping the Kings by bitching about every questionable call, and continuing to bitch about Rodney Mott's bad call on Thompson in the Lakers game. I have no doubt that many fans, including some here, are ready to set fire to league offices on their volition. But for the less sophisticated soundbite fans out there, Napear's continual tirades are like candy to a cavity. It helps no one. No one. Get over it.
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Regarding the Refs
I was mad about the bad calls during the L*ker game as I think a lot of us were. But the game isn’t going to be won now by complaining about it and Peaches should be more of a professional regarding it.
This is a really young team who can play themselves into and out of any game they show up for. What makes them special is the fact that there are so many weapons. Before the season there more questions than answers. Now we’re starting to see what we have and I’m pleasantly surprised.
I don’t want to see us continue to lose, but if these losses continue with a high level of effort (as opposed to what we were subjected to last year) than I will be satisfied. But harping on refs and the multitude of blown calls will not help that effort. Only smart, disciplined basketball is going to translate to wins. Refs can only do so much to blow a game, the Kings have to do the rest.
"I grok it!" Valentine Michael Smith
I thought Peaches was a bit over the top in how awful that foul call on Sergio Rodriguez was at the end of the 3rd. (I didn't hear what he said in LA cuz I got the Lakers feed.)
But, here’s the thing: He normally doesn’t say much about the refs anyway other than to look at calls as “fairly” as he can. My favorite part about how “mad” Peaches was that Jerry didn’t have anything else much to say. He was ready to move on.
I don’t usually mind listening to Grant as he does call the game, but there are times when I chuckle at how over the top he is. That “terrible” moment is one of them.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Yeah Grant can get pretty animated at times
It is good to have our play by play guys showing so much excitement for our team again and I generally agree that Grant on TV is where he is at his best (as opposed to that horrible excuse for a radio show he hosts).
The foul on Sergio was a bad call but by no means as bad as Grant sold it. I’ve seen worse. Now if it had been what cost us the game that’s a whole different thing.
"I grok it!" Valentine Michael Smith
by SeattleRoyalty on Jan 3, 2010 9:42 AM PST up reply actions
Right.
It seemed very bang bang to me at the time, and it was funny to hear Grant sort of apologize afterwards. Total Peaches moment.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
He was at the game though
I don’t know if you could tell, but the crowd was furious and loud about it, If they’re gong to penalize hustle – It was right on the heels of another pretty bad call.
The crew . . . wasn’t good, and thats always amplified when the game lacks rythm.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 3, 2010 11:13 AM PST up reply actions
Very true.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Complaining about the refs is a birth right for us Kings fans.
We have earned it through YEARS of bad calls. I’m still going to continue to bitch about the refs. I’ve tried to move on, but if these things even themselves out, the NBA owes us about 8 years worth of calls in our favor. I’m not really ready to move on.
Fantasy sports author for Rototimes and Fanball. Northern California sports fanatic. Kings blog: Kingskingdom.com
However
There is a huge difference between what I say on these boards or in my own house when I’m ready to put my shoe through the T.V. or go on a whiskey induced dish breaking spree and what I would put out there in print or professionally. Totally agree with TZ that Napear needs to bring it in a little.
On the flip side, I think Grant is excited like the rest of us. He wants to see this team win and like Ziller said after the game the other night, this team deserves to win some of the close ones. Grant hasn’t shown any positive emotion for the Kings in a few years and was more intent on highlighting how bad they were. That has changed, just like a lot of things have changed around here for the better in this early part of the season.
Fantasy sports author for Rototimes and Fanball. Northern California sports fanatic. Kings blog: Kingskingdom.com
The refs
Bad last night, worse in LA. What I would love to see done is an analysis of fouls committed by small market teams versus large market teams to see if there is an historical discrepancy. Anyone out there with spare holiday time on their hands?
Not for that I don't.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Yeah, sorry...
I have to knit a car cover, no time for historical breakdowns.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
by jjham15 on Jan 3, 2010 10:40 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Not quite an analysis of fouls but...
This popped up for a second during the game last night, and piqued my curiosity. Check out these numbers:
Free Throws Attempted:
1/1/09
Lakers: 29
Kings: 16
1/2/09
Mavs: 28
Kings: 13
I always get upset about foul calls, or the absence thereof, but this is a bit crazy. I do remember that the Kings had 5 free throw attempts in the first half last night. Remember all those times the Mavs got their hands on the ball? No reach in calls, ever!
Perhaps it’s just these young Kings players, still dealing with the awkwardness of youth who just can’t help swinging their arms this way and that.
Right.
by DirtyDribblers on Jan 3, 2010 10:54 AM PST up reply actions
For the season
We are averaging one less free throw taken per game than our opponent, but we are making two fewer a game. My bet is that both of these numbers would be in our favor if Kevin Martin had been playing all season.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Wait a minute
Are you implying that the Kings are actually better with Speed? What’s wrong with you?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
I think you have to compare the number for PF to the number of FT's
We get 4 fouls per quarter without giving up FT. But, when the Kings give up 26 FT’s on 21 PF’s, then it tells you that their fouling too often in the act of shooting. And, that’s just poor defense, and points more to the young Kings players and not the Ref’s.
There are 3 Refs, and they usually are willing to over rule one another on possession calls if one gets it wrong. But, they seldom if ever over rule one another on a blown foul call. The Brown tripping call in the Lakers game was called by the baseline ref who was in back of the play. One of the other 2 or both had a better look, but they’re not going to make their partners look bad. That to me is what’s wrong with the refs.
The game is too fast, and guys make mistakes. They should be man enough to admit it and correct all their mistakes. If they did that I be willing to live with the Stars getting preferential treatment. That’s why I love the new video review rules.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
I think they need to expand the use of video even more.
Anything having to do with a out of bounds call should always be reviewed. There are many areas that are not so black and white but this isn’t one of them.
by nothingbutnet on Jan 3, 2010 1:33 PM PST up reply actions
Have some stubborn toe nails to clip
which will use up most of my spare time.
by nothingbutnet on Jan 3, 2010 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
It ain't over
until Peaches calls Rodney Mott soft.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 3, 2010 9:46 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
Sorry, meant that for you Section
"I grok it!" Valentine Michael Smith
by SeattleRoyalty on Jan 3, 2010 10:07 AM PST up reply actions
Fail!
You may not comment for 24 hours so you can feel your shame appropriately!
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
4 more wins before they improve upon last years record.
My hope before the season started was an improvement on their 17 wins from last year. Obviously expectations have risen as a result of how they have played so far, but for me anything above 17 wins is a successful year.
So these losses are bitter when they occur, but don’t forget the big picture.
Ba-da
My preseason hope what that they would be competitive against the better teams.
And, they’re doing it on individual skill and effort. The playing like a team will come eventually, but in the mean time the individual skills are so much more than I could have dreamed they’d be.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Jan 3, 2010 1:18 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
"It should probably be discussed at some point soon whether Casspi is the long-term answer at small forward for (any) team."
Who would question this at this point, and why? Not me. Done deal as far as I’m concerned. One tiny nitpick. I don’t like the chest-pounding after every single good play. This is the kind of behavior that, were we to see it in an opponent, we would hate it.
I don’t mind genuine emotion (which he obviously has in spades), but premeditated celebration routines really bother me.
You’re better than that, Omri.
Damn, the Mavs are good. Josh Howard AND Jason Terry off the bench? Barea is a playa (sorry) and Drew Gooden was an underrated pickup for them. He complements Dirk very well. And its almost unfair how Jason Kidd has developed a Steve Kerr-like acumen for burying 3’s (at least against us) late in his career.
I don’t see many minutes for Cisco with this roster at full strength. And Sergio better tighten it up or his minutes are soon to go bye-bye. You can see Westphal’s frustration with some of the turnovers – but the whole team was awful last night. We’re gonna have some clunkers. I still love this team.
Agree to disagree
I didn’t have a problem with C-Webb’s glare, and I don’t have a problem with this team’s showing of enthusiasm and/or passion.
I am sure that Casspi and Brockman are public enemy #1 and #1A to our opponents. And I am sure that every one of those opponents would love to have Casspi on their team (think modern day Danny Ainge, but bigger). Brockman is our Najera or Reggie Evans.
I wouldn’t mind if Casspi dialed it back a notch, but if the cost was one rebound, then count me out. Casspi (and Greene and Thompson) are really a nice counter balance to the more stoic Evans and Martin, in my opinion.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I don't know how it showed on TV
or if you were at the game but.
Gooden really hates Brockman and Dirk dispises him. (switch that)
Barea is a pain in the assssss, Tyreke and Beno had a short argument about who should guard him.
The team seemed tired again, especially the ball handlers. Beno and Sergio didn’t/couldn’t penetrate and kick or break down the D. Neither did a good job creating easy shots for others, but most seemed a little slow footed last night night and not a lot of movement/cutting was going on to help.
A funny thing occurred to me, Dirk and Beno have very similar offensive games – (seperated by 9 inches of height). They both live on mid-range shots and nifty spin moves. Ahhhhh, of course Dirk is – Dirk. Still, not suprising they know how to play Beno.
When Dampier went out, so did Hawes and it was basically a medium/small ball game after that, which they were just a bit better at. Smart coaching, Hawes was starting to own Dampier when they made the change.
Every time Casspi made a shot Dirk had a WTF look on is face (germans and je- never mind) and yes, he was clearly the most dangerous offensive player. I still haven’t gotten a handle on his D, I know the effort is there which is a lot of the battle . . . . anyway, 20 points is starting to seem routine, even expected for him. He needs to bulk up a bit, get stronger, and seems to know it, so we’ll see next year.
Despite his solid numbers, JT still seemed frustrated most of the night. He needs to find a way to assert his will, his game in some aspect he can be satisfied with on a regular basis. I vote for D boards where he just doesn’t get himself in good position a lot of the time and schedule a few dunks each game, I know they cheer me up.
Donte’ played pretty well, a little unfocused at times but progress, progress, progress.
Nothing really dynamic about Reke’s game last night, he was obviously shaking off some rust but had some nice plays on both ends.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 3, 2010 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
On Donte being unfocused
He’s being used defensively to guard the other teams best offensive player, Dirk, Kobe, Lebron, and then on the offensive side he’s playing SG, SF, PF and even Center once. Don’t you think that more stability would be better for Donte, who’s really only seeing consistent minutes for the first time in his career?
I know that with Martin & Cisco out and no other SG some of these rotations are forced on to PW. I just hoping that with Martins return some of these guys can settle into a permanent rotation spot with consistent minutes.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
We're really deep all of a sudden. How did that happen?
We have 10 guys that are getting fairly consistent burn, and K9 is useful in spurts. When Kevin and Cisco return, we just have too many players. Will be interesting to see what happens over the next 2-3 months, in terms of playing time and trades.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Jan 3, 2010 3:32 PM PST up reply actions
Noce is gone for anything, I think that's a given
I doubt Cisco is back before mid Feb so no worries there for a while. KM takes some of Donte and Casspi’s minutes and essentially all of Udoka’s.
After that?
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 3, 2010 4:59 PM PST up reply actions
sorry - yes
hopefully for somewhere he can help a contender. Its all about the kids here right now.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 4, 2010 1:39 PM PST up reply actions
Any team he's on will be a contender.
Just look at how the Kings improved this year.
"Oh, y ahora ¿quién podrá defenderme?" "¡Yo!"
I like Udoka
Mini-Battier. Knocks down open shots and is annoying on defense. The “stick the arm in the shooter’s face” thing he does is a mirror image of Battier. I don’t want to see Udoka’s minutes all go away. With everyone back…
Starters
Hawes
Thompson
Greene (I like him here for defense)
Martin
Evans
Bench
Brockman
Udoka
Casspi
Garcia
Beno
The C/PF rotation would consist of Hawes, Thompson, Brockman, and Greene. PG is obviously Evans/Beno, with maybe a little Garcia thrown in. Martin, Greene, Casspi, Garcia, and Udoka share the SG/SF minutes depending on what we need. I’m much more comfortable with Udoka guarding an opposing team’s star than Casspi or (heaven forbid) Martin, or even Garcia.
"HARK! BUT LOOK OVER HERE, IT'S A COST CONTROLLED COCO CRISP! DOES MY USE OF ALLITERATION HYPNOTIZE YOU?" (PL78)
by CaliforniaJag on Jan 4, 2010 5:25 PM PST up reply actions
See, I would agree, but I don't think any of it is "premeditated"
If it were, I would have an issue with it as well, but he is just coming up BIG. For a kid to be hitting the shots that he is hitting, he should be allowed to thump his chest. He has gone from a question mark that scouts said didn’t have a legit jumper and couldn’t hit free-throws to a cold blooded assassin in a matter of months. That chest pumping is confidence in himself and I welcome it when he is hitting the shots that he has been hitting lately. If he starts to do it after every play, then yeah, he should stop, but right now he is doing after key plays in which most guys would be excited.
Fantasy sports author for Rototimes and Fanball. Northern California sports fanatic. Kings blog: Kingskingdom.com
Cisco
When cisco gets back I think nocioni’s minutes are gone and sergio’s and Ime’s are decreases. Cisco is way to good of a shooter and defender not to play. Cisco has hit more big shots at the end of the game the last 2ys then everyone else combined. With the game on the line Cisco is money!!
by elSAVinator on Jan 3, 2010 11:59 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I think Omri is the long term answer at small forward
I see him as a Detlef Schrempf-type, a guy who is able to knock down big shots and play tough D and get rebounds, even if he’s probably not a lockdown defender or someone who’s going to be counted on to create shots.
I’d ink in Evans and Omri, pencil in Kevin provided he plays well with Evans (I think he will), but honestly I’m not sold on Thompson and Hawes. I’m just not completely convinced that Thompson is a starting power forward on a good team. I like his effort, but he’s 23 and still wildly immature. (I’d be satisfied if he just limited his complaining to the questionable calls, rather than every single one, including the most obvious). I’m mostly convinced Thompson will be the guy either at PF or C, but I still has some reservations.
I’m definitely not sold on Hawes. Even with the late offensive explosion, unless Hawes suddenly learns how to keep his man off the glass this is going to be a team that gives up a whole lot of offensive rebounds and is extremely limited defensively. I like the passing he’s shown lately, but I don’t think Thompson and Hawes are a great combination together. Both mostly offensively minded, neither particularly good defensively, and collectively poor on the boards (mostly Hawes’ fault).
I think Thompson or Hawes might play the Al Jefferson to our eventual Kevin Garnett – the young piece we sacrifice for the star veteran. They’re good players and solid draft choices, but if I were Petrie I wouldn’t hesitate to trade them for a Chris Bosh-ish player (or at least a Chris Bosh-ish player who is signed to a long term deal).
Every serious team has an All-Star level big. I like them, but I don’t think Thompson and Hawes are going to get there.
I think a third big man would go a long way for both of them.
I agree that I’m not totally sold on the Thompson/Hawes combo because they both have deficiencies in their game that really seem to play off of eachother. JT makes silly fouls and needs a defensive presence behind him and Hawes probably works best on the elbow, but could also use another big guy down low. The games where JT goes big, Hawes disappears and vice versa. A third big man that is committed to D would help both of them I think and that is what many of us have been asking for from day one. I think teams know that they can exploit one or the other of them defensively, but if you throw another 7-footer in there capable of changing a game, it would cause teams to shift their focus a little bit and would benefit both JT and Hawes. I think both are good enough to be starters, but of the 30+ minute variety instead of the guys that you need out there the entire time. Another big helps with that as well.
Fantasy sports author for Rototimes and Fanball. Northern California sports fanatic. Kings blog: Kingskingdom.com
A third big would definitely help
But I still don’t think this team will be serious until/unless one of the three bigs is at or very near an All-Star level. I don’t think the front office should be content with Thompson/Hawes as starters along with a similarly or lesser talented 3rd big.
Well, we all know that GP isn't afraid to pull the string on that one.
Trading a very popular Jason Williams for a more steady Mike Bibby would be an example of that. Dealing one of the youngins for a front line big man would definately be a plus, but hopefully it isn’t a guy that with a huge contract that isn’t worth the money and isn’t good enough to get us over the hump. The salary situation would need to be favorable.
Fantasy sports author for Rototimes and Fanball. Northern California sports fanatic. Kings blog: Kingskingdom.com
All bigs have deficiencies, it's how you play around them that's important.
JT/Hawes combo works because JT can score in the low post and is getting better at it. So he gets more offensive rebounds and put backs. Hawes is a better low post defender who will improve with experience and additional time in the weight room. And he can score from the outside and is a great facilitator from the top of the circle.
We saw this alot after the trade deadline last year. From March 1 thru the end of the year, Spencer had 15 games scoring 10+ ppg 8 of which were 20+, and JT had 16 games of 10+ ppg. In the same period, Spencer had 8 games with 10+ rebounds and JT had 9.
The difference this year is Tyreke, and how we’re playing Hawes & JT. They don’t play as much together, and Hawes isn’t as much of a high post initiator, but when he is he can still get assists. Right now Hawes is the best passer into the low post that we have on the team.
To play to their strenghts the Kings need to run pick & rolls with Tyreke and Spencer, instead of having Tyreke brake down his man while the defense waits for him in the paint. This is going to draw the opposing center away from the basket and open the paint for JT and our slashers.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
I don't think Hawes is a better post defender
He comes up with the occasional good play, but he’s weak keeping guys out of the paint and even when he makes a good defensive play struggles to come up with the rebound.
I agree with HT
Hawes is much better. Not as strong maybe which means he can get backed in, but his technique is really starting to look very good. The only time bynum was able to do anything was when he really leaned on him.
Are those two the long term answer inside? I don’t know yet.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 3, 2010 2:43 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not saying he's a good post defender, only that he's better than JT
and he does it without fouling and against the better low post players. Spencer’s problem is that he rushes everthing. He rushes his shots, and leaves his feet too early on rebounds and trying to block shots. Stopping big NBA Center from backing you down, is more technic and strength then skill. I remember Webber stopping Shaq from backing him down, and Webber couldn’t have done that on weight or strength alone. JT & Spencer are both young enough and skilled enough, they only need more technic and strength.
JT is no better than Spencer in getting backed down into the paint. And, Spencer is by far the better help defender, and shot blocker. Plus, Spencer is much better at sealing off his man which makes it easier for JT to get rebounds.
But, maybe I just don’t hold young bigs to as high a standard as you. I do respect you opinion, but I guess we’ll just have to disagree on this.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
I got a few issue's on this
Hawes is a better post defender than JT is; it’s not even close. JT is still reaching far too often, and what not. JT has a more reliable offensive game than Spencer which is the major problem.
I don’t think the Kings will move JT for any reason. One is that he can play offensively at PF pretty well, and that’s something that is important. The Kings need to get better up front, but I don’t know if the answer is to trade Spence or JT for that “All-Star” big. Especially if that big is Chris Bosh.
It’s funny you bring up Detlef Schrempf, but I see Omri as a less of a jumping jack Shawn Marion. I’ll take that every time.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
The Marion comparison for Omri came to mind when I was checking the boxscore last night
Casspi could be a fantasy league dream some day
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 3, 2010 1:48 PM PST up reply actions
Its that jumpshot from the waist
very much like Marion’s.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 3, 2010 2:44 PM PST up reply actions
It's that
And the frenetic way Marion played in his earlier Suns days.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Agree
I LOVE Hawes/Brockman as a C/PF bench combo; Brockman crashes the boards and helps make up for Hawes’ defensive liabilities, while Hawes’ passing and shooting contrast with Brockman’s general ineptitude on the offensive end. But to make this work we need a starting center.
"HARK! BUT LOOK OVER HERE, IT'S A COST CONTROLLED COCO CRISP! DOES MY USE OF ALLITERATION HYPNOTIZE YOU?" (PL78)
by CaliforniaJag on Jan 4, 2010 5:26 PM PST up reply actions
What about Donté as the answer at SF?
With Casspi coming in off the bench in a Manu Ginobili like role and spelling the 2/3.
I know that Donté has been playing at SG recently with Martin out, but I still see his future as an athletic 3. I think Greene needs to start because of the defense he is showing and Omri could be an awesome sixth man.
Man, the future looks bright.
Fantasy sports author for Rototimes and Fanball. Northern California sports fanatic. Kings blog: Kingskingdom.com
I don't think Donte will be ready until he's more consistent offensively
The defense is extremely promising and he’s showing some things on offense, but he needs to go to dribbling school.
Right now Omri is a much better player in a lot of ways
but there’s a lot of season left and another summer before we start our playoff climb next year.
Omri needs to get stronger and Donte’ needs to get more consistant and has more things to work on.
But right now its clearly Omri.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 3, 2010 12:15 PM PST up reply actions
I agree that Omri is ahead of Donte right not
but I think Omri would be great in that Manu role.
He is a better offensive player and that might be exactly why it would be better to bring him off of the bench for firepower with the second unit. He wouldn’t have to compete with all of the first unit guys for shots and his job is to score and score a lot. They will need a guy like that.
I also think that Greene is showing enough to be optimistic that he can be a starter in this league as well.
Fantasy sports author for Rototimes and Fanball. Northern California sports fanatic. Kings blog: Kingskingdom.com
Its fun to watch it develop
and great to see we have some options.
But where would we have been without Omri as a starter last night? Now, when Kevin comes back and there’s a legit scorer and 3 pt shooter out there most of the time . . . .
Priorities may change.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 3, 2010 12:50 PM PST up reply actions
Its also about rebounding
I know Donte’ has been playing a lot of 2 but his rebounding rate is still very bad. Tyreke plays 1/2 and easily out rebounds him. We need all the rebounds we can get.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 3, 2010 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
Isn't that what we are talking about though?
I thought “the answer” was implying long term.
I’m not saying not to start Omri now. I think when Kevin is back, the Kings will want to keep some firepower to come in off the bench. Omri could be that guy in the 2/3 role to go with Beno as the subs that come in to do damage. I just think that Omri would be awesome in that Manu role. Teams aren’t always at their best when they start their best players. SA and Dallas are a testament to that with guys like Ginobili and Jason Terry. It’s just a role that I think Casspi would be good at while I think Donte would not be well suited to that type of role.
Fantasy sports author for Rototimes and Fanball. Northern California sports fanatic. Kings blog: Kingskingdom.com
I can agree with that
The way Donte is defending opponents’ best players in only his second year is encouraging. He also brings athleticism that no one else on ths team has.
That being said, like lttg points out, Omri’s rebounding is a great complement to have, especially for this team. He’s also a more consistent shooter and offensive player.
It’s just exciting that we are thinking about maybe having two different answers at the 3 position.
Godfather of the "nice ass" movement.... the future begins now...
Two sides of the same coin
Do you bring Omri off the bench to add scoring to the 2nd string, or do you bring Donte off as the defensive stopper. Nice problem to have.
My choice is Omri as starter, because I still believe Donte needs to play PF against certain lineups. Although I don’t think the Kings will really need Omri’s scoring on the starting lineup, with Martin, Tyreke & JT on the floor.
Of course now that I’ve said that I can imagine Omri coming of the bench and scoring 20+ points. Decisions, Decisions, Decisions
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Beno and Casspi
putting in 30 or so between them off the bench.
It has its attractions.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 3, 2010 3:26 PM PST up reply actions
Funny thing
30 pts between those 2 is not that crazy of a thought. Consistent offense from your bench is indeed attractive.
Godfather of the "nice ass" movement.... the future begins now...
Just ask the Lakers.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
You could still use Donte as a backup PF even with him starting
I would imagine that if Donte started that Omri, and later Cisco, will be one of the firsts off the bench. You bring Omri in early for Donte, let him get a breather, than bring him back in to replace JT or Hawes at the start of the second, maybe even use Brockman to spell Donte even longer. I just feel Donte is a better fit in the starting lineup with Martin and Tyreke, if for no other reason than (my own personal theory) that Tyreke, Donte, and JT seem to play at their best when all three are on the floor.
I agree with you Omri off the bench and Donte the starting 3
given what we know right now.
Omri is a better all around player, but Donte has skills that are very complimentary when playing with good players.
I want Donte to start because you send him out there with two instructions:
1) Defend their best wing player
2) take open shots or obvious drives to the hoop
Do not be a creator, don’t do too much, just fit in and play great defense, take what’s there. He makes Kevin’s life easy, because Kevin plays their worst offensive wing guy, with Tyreke/Donte being a solid defensive duo.
For Omri, I’m rolling him out there with Beno and eventually Cisco and that group is going to demolish other second units. That group plays nice with Brockman because there are so many creators and initiators, and Brockman can just do his thing.
Coming down the stretch, you use either Casspi or Donte, depending on matchups and how the game has gone up to then.
Free Omri...trade.Noc.
by ForThree on Jan 3, 2010 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
I agree
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Jan 3, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
Double agree
Literally took the words out of mouth (read my posts at the bottom of the thread) Omri is good, but Donte is a better fit for the starting lineup, if for no other reason then putting him and Tyreke out there together gives a two good perimeter defenders, and like you said allowing K-Mart to take the weakest perimeter threat on the opposing squad. Not to mention that Beno, Omri, and Cisco is a dangerous bench squad with Brockman to anchor it.
The other side of this is of course
with KM and Casspi on the wings, the middle should be wide open for Tyreke to penetrate. Donte’ can shoot from there but make no mistake, Casspi is starting to scare the crap out of defenses. An almost unstoppable offense.
I’m soooo looking forward to seeing those combinations and how they work.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 3, 2010 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
That was my original thought
about complementing the other guys in the starting lineup. You stated that in a perfect way. Good stuff 4 3
Godfather of the "nice ass" movement.... the future begins now...
We've thrown a lot of comparisons at Donte
The role I’d like to see him in is some kind of giant Tayshaun Prince. Prince is not a #1 option or anything like that, but he (used to anyway) locks down someone and whatever needs doing, he does. They don’t run a lot for him, but he gets his points wherever they are available and he’s really smart.
Free Omri...trade.Noc.
It's kind of funny
But I see Shawn Marion’s athleticism in Donte and his shooting motion in Omri. But both bring each side of Marion that made him an All-Star (overrated in my view but whatever).
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Well said 4-3.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
This
Is exactly what I was trying to say, you just broke it down much better.
Not only would Donte’ be a better fit with the first unit for the reasons that you mentioned, but I also think that he focuses much better in the starting lineup. Some guys are just like that. Look at Salmons for example when he was with Sacramento. He was great as a starter, but looked like he was lost out there at times coming off of the bench. I like the idea of giving Donte’ a role and making him stick with it and like you said, not relying on him as an offensive spark plug. I just don’t think it is a role he can handle yet.
Beno, Casspi, and Brockman are your bench mobsters with different roles. Beno and Casspi can be offensive initiators and Brockman is the 10-minute muscle. I also like the flexibility it gives PW to play matchups. He can really use Casspi and Beno to agitate teams and create tempo and still leave Martin and Tyreke in there for stretches with those guys.
Fantasy sports author for Rototimes and Fanball. Northern California sports fanatic. Kings blog: Kingskingdom.com
Looking a bit into the future
But if if we are able to get that defensive big that could help with the defensive rebounding then that could mean one of JT and Hawes will be joining that group off the bench.
Beno, Cisco, Omri, 2 of JT/Spence/ Brockman off the bench. Looks good to me
Godfather of the "nice ass" movement.... the future begins now...
If Cisco is healthy
I think Donte is much better off the bench. If Cisco is not healthy, I think it’s better for Donte to start. It’s the mix of players and ball handling that you surround Donte with; not necessarily whether he plays better with Beno and/or Tyreke and Kevin and yadda yadda.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Good point about ball handling
but only if you’re looking at it from Donte’s POV. Both Donte and Omri are not great ball handlers so starting either of them at the 3 wouldn’t make a difference when it comes to the ball handling ability of the starting unit.
Now, if we’re just looking to find complements to Donte then I could see where that’s coming from. Wouldn’t it be the same concern with Omri though?
Godfather of the "nice ass" movement.... the future begins now...
Omri is a far better ball handler than Donte IMO
Donte puts the ball on the floor and I cringe that he may cough it up at any moment. With Omri he has far too good a handle for that to be a problem.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Love your post
I like Greene as the starter as well to help hide the defensive issues of Martin/Thompson/Hawes, as well as to use Casspi as the sixth-man/energy monster.
"HARK! BUT LOOK OVER HERE, IT'S A COST CONTROLLED COCO CRISP! DOES MY USE OF ALLITERATION HYPNOTIZE YOU?" (PL78)
by CaliforniaJag on Jan 4, 2010 5:29 PM PST up reply actions
I don't even get it.
What’s your deal?
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
I think that if you want to build this team around Tyreke Evans
then Casspi is your starting SF. Tyreke works best when he’s surrounded by shooters, and right now Casspi is the 2nd best shooter to Kevin on the team. When you can have him and Kevin Martin to kick out too, the defenses cannot pack the lane. Throw in Hawes and JT as well, both of whom have some range, and you’ve got some big problems if you’re the other team.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
This discussion isn't over
We’ll definately be having it again once KM is back for a while and as these young guys keep developing.
Its impossible to keep Casspi off the floor right now. Last night he led us in minutes so PW seems to think the same thing.
I’m looking forward to chewing on this more, but for now – Casspi all night.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 3, 2010 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
My first thought is how many FGA's is Omri going to get with Tyreke & Martin on the floor?
Omri might be better as the 1st or 2nd option on the 2nd string. Although on second thought, PW doesn’t seem to have a 1st or 2nd string. It’s more of a who’s he going to put in now. But, with Martin back hopefully players can settle into more permanent roles.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
When the Kings are at full strength which starting five seems most threatening
Tyreke, K-Mart, Cisco, JT, Hawes
Tyreke, K-Mart, Omri, JT, Hawes
Tyreke, K-Mart, Donte, JT, Hawes
Cisco and Omri both provide an added shooting bonus, which is handy to go along with Tyreke’s driving ability. Both are adequate defenders as well, and provide a certain firey passion to the lineups. However with Donte’s defense improving I really like what he brings to the starting lineup around Reke, Speed, and Shawes. I think him in the starting lineup means that we have to above average perimeter defenders, which could prove beneficial in helping the interior D. Donte isn’t that much of a loss in shooting either, and we get both Omri and Cisco providing a spark off the bench.
Also on Donte starting
It means we can have Speed cover the other teams weakest offensive threat, both hiding his defensive ineptness and conserving his energy for the offensive end.
This is the point that used to sway me of Omri vs Donte
But Donte definitely plays better starting and with Omri it really doesn’t matter to him.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
When Garcia gets back
I would think he would get the start, but if Omri can continue to shoot and rebound like this then idk. I never thought he would be this good!
Cisco will never start, barring injuries
(IMO) He’s better off the bench in any case, a man made to lead the 2nd team.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 3, 2010 5:01 PM PST up reply actions
This is the argument that could lead to bringing Donte off the bench
With Cisco around, you have that shooter and decision maker you don’t need to have Donte do when he’s on the court with another player. Cisco/Donte could be a great 2nd unit (actually Donte has all the tools to be an All-Star really).
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
I have always thought Cisco would be a perfect sixth man, with his ability to play 1,2, or 3, his speed, his energetic defense, and his three point range.
Regardless who starts. End of the game I want tyreke, kmart, cisco, casspi, and Thompson. 3 deadly shooters around tyreke, with a skilled rebounder.
by elSAVinator on Jan 4, 2010 12:14 AM PST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
How about you remember Chapu?
And when it matters you remind us what we’re missing?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
I live in Seattle
What else do you want?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
No.
Definitely not that.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
The sun was already down
And they were in New York at the end of the movie.
Jes’ sayin’.
StR Token Female
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 5, 2010 10:18 AM PST up reply actions
Why do you have to ruin everybody's good time?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Reke and Casspi
make for one of the most outrageously impressive rookie combos in the NBA in recent years, no bout adoubt it!
And for my $ Casspi is already “the answer” at the 3 on a rebuilding young team like the Kings, soon if not right now. Which is cool because Cisco is great coming off the bench at that spot (or even 2) once in a while anyway. The more of his style of play that rubs off on the young guys the better.
Obviously Donte’ is still a work in progress. I’d like to be able to say where he fits in, but it’s too soon. Now, if K Mart ends up in a different situation because the Kings Youth Movement kicks into high gear or it lands us a quality big, then obviously that clears a path for Greene in some ways.
Shock is an interesting talent, and we need to keep seeing development. He’s clearly a legit NBA player, although what his ceiling might be is hard to say, and I wouldn’t mind if say, oh, a Chris Bosh happened to fall our way.
My take on Hawes is pretty well known around here I think, and from what I’ve seen there’s no reason for me to rethink it.
The sooner we go another direction at the 5 the better, IMO, and the one thing I like about the Okafor rumor was the possibility that the front office isn’t necessarily adverse to bringing in some rebounding and interior defense.
Meanwhile, lots of fun to be had watching the kids hustle!
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
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