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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Misleading Stats vs. Misreading Stats

Ailene Voisin, today:

And in yet another example of how stats are more reflective of performance in baseball than basketball, [DeMarcus] Cousins' assist/turnover averages (2.3 for each) are totally misleading. Avoiding foul trouble and adapting to the conditioning demands of the NBA are his issues.

Me, now:
  • No one but no one grades big men exclusively on assist/turnover averages. Except maybe David Kahn.
  • If someone did grade big men exclusively on assist/turnover averages, they would see that a ratio of 1 isn't bad and that 2.3 assists a game for a big man is rather good. To wit: only six players 6'11 or taller are averaging 2.3 assists a game this year.
  • There's a pretty easy way in which stats can verify the foul trouble issue: fouls per game or fouls per minute. Cousins is fourth in fouls per game and 47th (of about 300) in fouls per minute.
  • You could actually use stats to determine whether Cousins wears down toward the end of his stints, and whether that's normal for NBA players, but that's a bit outside the scope of this complaint.
Overall, I do recommend Voisin's column. This type of "blame the numbers because I don't understand them" stuff just gets my goat.


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Makes you wonder.

 Is it possible to average out DMC s numbers with griffen? Did she bother to look at mpg? Because if you look at that then , average that out to match Griffens numbers , im thinking DMC s would be as good or better. and isnt griffen a beast ? Also , it looked like we lost that game in NJ when DMC fouled out. So yeah, it sounds like he needs to work on staying out of foul trouble. Like everyone expected right ?

by 9K1NGS6 on Nov 1, 2010 5:42 AM PDT reply actions  

what your asking for is called PER

and Aykis16 has a nice calculator on his blog for such purposes.

Umm... I thought we were officially referring to Voison as the Chick Replacing Amick at the Paper? or CRAP, for short.

by sac_faithful on Nov 1, 2010 5:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Also

ESPN upgraded their stats page to include PER with the main stats. The other columns are adjusted too. Instead of raw numbers, its shows more per game numbers. Overall its pretty cool.

Kings stats

"I predict JT puts up 7/5 this year.":http://espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3462

by bench_blob on Nov 1, 2010 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

I do not understand your obsession with PER.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

Have a great day.

"I predict JT puts up 7/5 this year.":http://espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3462

by bench_blob on Nov 1, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Or...

People Eating Ravioli.
Pookey Earning Recs.
Placer Education Reform.
Plywood Edges- Rough.
Prius Emissions Rising.

StR Token Female

by LeaguePassAddict on Nov 1, 2010 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

just out of curiousity what metrics do you prefer?

I think PER can be both enlightening and deceiving like all stats. Is that you hate compounded statistics and prefer to be more diligent by looking at situational stats or do you prefer other compounded metrics like winshares or something else?

I realize youve probably expounded your thoughts about these measures in past threads but humor me in my search for the holyholeless statistical grail.

huh? wha?

by effin steve on Nov 1, 2010 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Lot of things I don't like about PER.

For one thing, a young player who is playing 15 mins a game, has a high TS% and a low TOV% will have a better PER than any young player who is doing normally for his age. Marresse Speights is the king of looking good at 15 mins a game and then having his PER go back down to normal levels. He’s just 1 example that springs to mind for instance.

Do you need PER to really tell you that LeBron James is a great talent? No. You don’t, or you shouldn’t. You can use plenty of metrics to find out the differences between LeBron James and Kobe Bryant. (I still take Kobe every time myself. You want a killer if you want rings. Kobe is, and LeBron ain’t. Anyways…)

I think the one thing PER has done is highlighted A) how difficult it is to come up with metrics that do really well across the board in basketball and B) that perhaps the statistical revolution won’t happen with regards to basketball because so much of the game is psychology and chemistry that numbers can’t accurately quantify.

Having said that, I look at TS%, D-Reb & O-Reb%‘s, USG and TOV% among other things. I look at things that players can consciously work on. Players tend to be efficient, or they don’t. Kobe Bryant has never had a high TS% (never once over 58% for a single season) plus a career TS% of around 55%. LeBron James has a career TS% of 56%. Obviously, on terms of TS% I’d rather have LeBron. But Is TS% the only way to measure effectiveness in scoring and value to a team? I think not.

I care about USG because USG% changes how a player’s efficiency may work. Amare Stoudemire has been very efficient (60%+ TS for most of his career in Phx) at a high USG when in the desert. Will that translate to New York now that he doesn’t have the killer setups from Nash (and the attention). It’s not that Amare’s talent didn’t help Nash, and obviously vice versa, but now there is more of a load with less talent around Amare in New York. If Amare remains very efficient and with the lesser talent, maybe it means that most of us didn’t realize how good Amare was. (Not a fan anyway, but that’s me.)

At any rate, a big reason I discount PER is that it includes a number of stats that I think have no bearing on a quality of players. Assists, blocks and steals chiefly among them. They all factors into Hollinger’s equation and how he builds PER. Obviously, other things have greater weights than others, but my problem is those things really don’t reflect a real quality of a player. Is defense gauged solely on steals or blocks? Of course not. Were Webber & Divac bad defenders because they averaged about 2 blocks a game between them? No, of course not. They were among the 3 or 4 best tandems of defensive big men when the Kings were at their best.

To recap my view on assists: Worst stat in sports. Period. There is no more subjective stat in any sport than the assist stat. Zach Harper had a great piece at Hardwood Paroxysm about how good Darren Collison’s 16 assist game really was. (And, he could have picked a number of players across the league on just about any night. I’m not sure whether that speaks to the subjectivity of the assist stat or the fact it’s so pointless because it’s so widespread.)

There is so many things that PER leaves out and so many critical things that I’ve never been able to take it seriously. Hollinger is neither stupid or clueless when it comes to the numbers thing. He’s not a big part of the APBR board for nothing at all. On the other hand, some of Hollinger’s opinions stem from PER and I think it’s a very limited tool that really doesn’t shed any light.

Any questions?

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd

Because you make some great points. However, I disagree with the overall dislike for PER.

Assists are a flawed stats, no arguments here. Blocks are not the only thing that goes into defense, agreed. As has often been said, no stat is going to encompass the game as a whole. The game is so complex, so intricate, and so beautiful that stats cannot truly represent it.

However, stats give us a glimpse at more details of the game. Even the flaws help us to understand the game more. Hollinger is quick to admit that PER is a work in progress, and that it is not perfect. But it helps us delve deeper into the game. Sure, you don’t need PER to know that Kobe and LeBron are really good. I agree that you don’t need it for that, and that too many people look at the guys with highest PER. But we can use it as one part of evaluation. That’s how PER, and all stats, should be used.

Never forget, I'm an idiot.

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by Exhibit G on Nov 1, 2010 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

And let me add this -

Actually, I have nothing to add…G says it all. Damn, I was hoping to help out here, and I can’t even get an assist – G took it to the rack and finished on his own.

’Reke’d.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 1, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

My dislike for PERs is because Hollinger tried to come up with one stat

that compares all players, no matter what position they play. To due that he had to incorporate the most important stats for each position and assign them arbitrary values, and that is what dilutes the value.

You can’t compare the value of a point guard to the value of a center based on one formula. Because as Pookey pointed out we have no way of knowing what impact Nash had on Amare’s stats and visa versa. After all, this is a team game and everyone on and off the court plays a part in the stats. Even the coach who might tell a SF that his role is to catch and shot out past the arc, where another player at the same position on a different team, may be used as the main go to guy.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Nov 1, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly

As I said, a stat must be used as part of an evaluation. It is not the whole evaluation. Without context, you could make assumptions. With context, we know that Amare and Nash were very good together in Phoenix. We know they played together, and now we watch this season to see how good they are when they are not together. Can we observe these things without stats? Yes. Stats do not define what we see, they enhance what we see.

Never forget, I'm an idiot.

Follow me on Twitter

by Exhibit G on Nov 1, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Okay you clearly misunderstood my point.

Am I a big fan of Hollinger? No. But he’s not an idiot and I didn’t say PER has no use. If anything, PER should have taught us how hard it is to come up with comprehensive information without more info.

Morey’s Rockets do this now, and they take a ton of information. The amount of time and money spent is probably more than anything else. Let me ask this: How much has that information helped the Rockets? I’m not arguing it hurts them, but is there one way to gather information? Of course not.

We agree on many things, but you took my statement to mean something I did not mean for it to mean. Geoff Petrie is not a stat head, but he’s one of the few who don’t need it.


There are people out there like Jerry West and Bill Walsh who can make really good decisions without a spreadsheet behind them. But there are only a few of them. And so the goal is to create a mathematical system or methodology to use data and information that can make as good a decision as Walsh and West made, in a more structured and regimented way, so anyone can make them.
Read this if you haven’t. Excellent stuff from Jeffrey Ma about why Jerry West doesn’t need stats. (Even then, Ma noted West did find SOME use for them.)

My point is that I wasn’t ranting against PER. Just that I don’t use it for the reasons I list. I trust myself more than Hollinger’s numbers, and if that’s egotistical, so what? I’m entitled something I suppose. And, quite honest, I don’t give a shit who likes it or who doesn’t. So that’s that.

The point here is that while we agree, I’m confused why you needed to load my statement full of qualifiers. I’ve never said stats are pointless or have no uses. (I’ve used them a lot more than I have in the past for instance.)

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

This quote
I think it’s a very limited tool that really doesn’t shed any light.

This is why I responded the way I did. This line might not actually represent your views as a whole, but I felt it needed a response.

I think that overall you and I are on the same page.

Never forget, I'm an idiot.

Follow me on Twitter

by Exhibit G on Nov 1, 2010 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't use PER because I haven't figured out a single useful use for it.

Ever. And I’m not being against it to be "different’. I just don’t get what the real use is.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hey

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

G if you see this...

….look on twitter. I sent you a message.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Which is it?
I didn’t say PER has no use.
I don’t use PER because I haven’t figured out a single useful use for it.

Never forget, I'm an idiot.

Follow me on Twitter

by Exhibit G on Nov 1, 2010 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Both. I didn't say PER has no use, but I haven't figured out an use for it.

I’m assuming there’s some use, but I don’t see it. That’s not really a contradiction even though I understand why it seems like one.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.

Which I will eat.

by andy sims on Nov 1, 2010 6:31 AM PDT reply actions  

Three Games = Small Sample

DMC won’t have to match up against a Lopez every three games. Besides, he wasn’t the only King who had trouble defending Lopez in that game.

Voisin says fouls and conditioning are DMC’s issues this season….but this is the case for every rookie big man. And conditioning is an issue for just about every rookie. So no big revelations there.

I’d say DMC’s biggest problem so far this year is how lazy and out of position he gets when he is making an effort not to foul.

Ultimately these are good problems to have. It will be a lot easier for DMC to become better conditioned and work on his inside defense than it will be for MFH (Manna From Heaven) to learn how to pass the ball.

By the way, Voisin, there’s nothing misleading about the assist/turnover ratio. The stat is what the stat is. Now, of course you can draw the wrong conclusions from the stats, but that’s just human error. And as it has already been pointed out, there are many other measures used to gauge big men.

by gp37203 on Nov 1, 2010 6:50 AM PDT reply actions  

Voisin says fouls and conditioning are DMC’s issues this season….

I’d say DMC’s biggest problem so far this year is how lazy and out of position he gets when he is making an effort not to foul.

I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.

by wallywagon11 on Nov 1, 2010 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Lazy and Out of Position?

I hope he doesn’t draw any Jamarcus Cousins comparisons.

The FairWeather Channel - Sports Comics and Bandwagon Forecast

by Hit4TheCycle on Nov 1, 2010 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

to be honest, as a Raider fan I hate the Jamarcus Russell comparison (which I assume you meant)

Considering Russell was drinking purple drank, unprepared at QB which is the one position in all of sports where you have to have your head screwed on straight, plus the fact that he absolutely just sucked when he played pretty much every single time.

I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.

by wallywagon11 on Nov 1, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well it's green now.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Since when does Ailene give good numbers analysis?

It’s like expecting a goat to give you quantitative space research. The day she uses appropriate numbers analysis is when said goat is the head of NASA. Just sayin…

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 9:33 AM PDT reply actions  

It could be worse, you know.

We could have Marcos Breton giving the analysis instead. I’m sure he’d find some way to work it into some sort of liberal social agenda.

by KingsFan on Nov 1, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good luck. And that's just because politics is part of being human. And basketball players are human.

Plus, you got the always prescient arena issue looming at some point.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

/sigh. Just wham-it

.
Now, don’t you feel better?

by betweentheeyes on Nov 1, 2010 9:41 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

The thing I took from the article

Is that Voisin thinks the Kings are going to be so much better than 32 wins after they went 2-1 on a road trip against possibly 3 teams that will compete for the top 3 spots in the lottery. What is she going to say if we beat Toronto (another one of the worst teams in the league)?

She also says they defended and rebounded. Maybe in the 2nd half of the Cleveland game, but we got outrebounded by both New Jersey and Minnesota, and our defense right now is ranked 26th in the league, giving up about 110 points per 100 possessions, and we’re 3rd in the league in points against us, meaning we have given up the 3rd most points up in that time.

It’s interesting that Ailene, even while optimistic about the team, still manages to misstate facts. I love this team too, I thought they’d win 38. But against teams that are going to be anywhere from the .500 range or up, we would have lost all three games this weekend.

Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.

by Aykis16 on Nov 1, 2010 10:31 AM PDT reply actions   2 recs

This.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Kings are also 3rd in NBA points (108.0)

and 2nd best in fewest TOs. So as bad as the defense has been, the offense as been as good, excluding end of game execution.

Sammy D has played 23 minutes in 3 games. I gotta hope as he plays more, our PTs allowed and FG% against will drop. If we can score at a high rate this year, 104-105 PPG, which I think we can, and improve to middle of the pack defensively, we are going to win a lot of games.

I predict JT puts up 7/5 this year.

by bench_blob on Nov 1, 2010 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Our offense should be good

We haven’t gone up against a good defense yet. Its our defense I’m worried about, because we haven’t gone up against a good offense yet either.

Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.

by Aykis16 on Nov 1, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Edited Version
Cousins is freaky talented. Can’t say enough about this kid. The dribble-handoff to a cutting Omri Casspi. The steal and breakaway dunk. The ball fake and spin into the middle for another dunk. The lust for rebounds.

And in yet another example of how stats are more reflective of performance in baseball than basketball, Cousins’ assist/turnover averages (2.3 for each) are totally misleading. Avoiding foul trouble and adapting to the conditioning demands of the NBA are his issues.

She’s a DMC fan, but should not try and be a Hollinger with her facts… I think the Foul Trouble and condition questions are relevent.

by gdub171 on Nov 1, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hollinger isn't very good in this regard either.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Is this a retraction of the anti-Voisin articles stance?

Not that it’s obtusely so.

Bé foréwarnéd: I am a mémbér of StR Groupthink méntality.

by CAB on Nov 1, 2010 10:48 AM PDT reply actions  

Shawshank Rec-demption.

StR Token Female

by LeaguePassAddict on Nov 1, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

Outstanding.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Assist/TO

Is a good indicator of PG production since they handle the ball a lot and are responsible for plays and setting others up to score.

DMC = NaPG

by KingsFan on Nov 1, 2010 11:53 AM PDT reply actions  

Assist to TO ratio is pointless.

Why? Assists are a pretty pointless stat in the way it’s kept.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thats exactly it right here Pookey..Its is one of the few stats based off your teammates, not you…Everyone makes lots of passes, but how many teammates can A: Shoot the ball when it’s passed, b) Make the points on that shot..I consider assists worthless stat

Founder of team Omté Caspeen

by Widowwolf on Nov 1, 2010 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Tom Ziller, today:

Overall, I do recommend Voisin’s column.

Me, now:

I think I’ll skip it. I’m sure it’s a great column, though, that Voisin is so insightful.

(BTW, Have you ever noticed how a dog will continue to eat chocolate, even though he knows it will make him sick? Man, dogs are so crazy!)

by basketball galactica on Nov 1, 2010 1:09 PM PDT reply actions  

Humans do the same thing with alcohol.

Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.

by Aykis16 on Nov 1, 2010 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

We are looking at you Section..JK

Founder of team Omté Caspeen

by Widowwolf on Nov 1, 2010 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lloyd Bridges pics get an automatic rec.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 1, 2010 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

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