Guard Replacement Therapy: What the Kings Are After, And What They Need
by Tom Ziller on Nov 26, 2010 10:00 AM PST
in Free Agency/Trades
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PrintFirst, and most importantly: the Kings have been after Aaron Brooks forever. Sacramento had a deal with the Spurs in 2007 to buy San Antonio's 28th pick in order to grab Brooks, but Houston took the University of Oregon product with the 26th pick. (It's unclear whether S.A. would have gone through with it given that Tiago Splitter ended up available at 28.)
So, again, the desire to add Brooks isn't sudden. It may be dubbed "new again" as management comes to terms with Tyreke Evans' game and this team's needs.
But the Kings and we as fans need to determine just what's wrong with team before getting excited about a point guard acquisition. Remember, this guard would replace Luther Head, one half (or thereabouts) of the Kings' sudden (and possible aborted) defensive resurgence. Remember, the Kings' offense was among the top half in the league when Beno Udrih was ahead of Head in the rotation.
It's a real quandary for Paul Westphal, and I don't envy him for it: you play Beno more, and the defense tanks; you play Head more, and the offense struggles. The only other thing I'd note is that Beno has played a lot more with Evans, and the defense has always been pretty bad. Head's just getting his first chance next to Evans. So, all other considerations constant, you'd like to see if a Head-Evans backcourt can round off the edges and put together some solid offensive nights. (Or even one solid offensive night. I'd take one.)
With Evans struggling so much -- please let it be his plantar fasciitis and not a general malaise or having been figured out by the entire NBA including Vinny Del Negro -- Beno's offense might be required. But in the longer term -- and you assume that's what Geoff Petrie is really concerned with, though even that can't be certain -- what works with a healthy Reke is what's important. If Evans is too bothered by his foot to give the Kings a clean look at what Head-Reke could be, then it's all for naught. But, again, given that Evans has suffered from the injury much longer than the last four games, and given that the Kings' offense was empirically better with Udrih starting, basic logic would say a team starring Tyreke Evans needs a better playmaker than Luther Head (a two-guard before this season) in the backcourt.
Brooks is certainly a better playmaker than Head ... but is positively Benoesque on defense. And, truth be told, he's not likely that much of a better playmaker than Udrih. (Their career assist rates are identical, meaning that each has a shoot-or-pass ratio roughly equal.) In fact, Brooks is only a nominally better shooter than Udrih. Basically, the Kings would be trading for "slightly better Beno who still is a problem on defense." That ain't getting it done, and I can't imagine why the Kings need that right now. (Brooks is cheaper than Beno now, but won't be when he reaches free agency -- restricted though it may be -- this summer.)
***
Jeff Teague has been the other guard target mentioned in media reports. Teague has the benefit of youth (he's four years younger than Brooks, and in just the second year of his rookie deal, with less than 1,000 minutes of NBA action). But at the same time, Teague is Brooks, Beno, Bibby: he's the cliché Petrie point guard -- a shoot-first, pass-later player. That's why Teague fell to Atlanta in the 2009 draft, because he was seen as a combo guard.
But, given that an Udrih-Evans double combo guard backcourt seems to work on offense, and whereas the problem with Udrih and Brooks would be defense, the question becomes whether Teague can defend like Head (or reasonably similar). I should note I'm unconcered with Teague's shooting percentages in the NBA -- he was such a good shooter in such a good conference in college that he'll find his range. This is not an Adam Morrisson situation. It's more J.J. Redick. It just takes some game minutes to adjust, and I think he's getting there.
So, defense. Teague? Who knows. He's smaller than Head. Basketball-Value.com's unadjusted plus-minus indicates the Hawks didn't lose anything on defense when Teague played last year; given that he played behind Mike Bibby, I'm not sure that's a positive, and either way it came in too-limited minutes.
But given that the Hawks declined Teague for Jason Thompson back in the offseason (according to Marc Stein), and given that the Kings can't really beef up that offer without making a dumb move, that's a dead end. Who else is there?
* Rodney Stuckey. Stuckey is a bad shooter right now, but should be a better a defender than Beno or Brooks. A Stuckey-Evans backcourt might put some dents into the ARCO Arena hardwood, but the playmaking would be improved over Head-Evans, and Stuckey is just 24 years old and approaching what should be a fairly cheap restricted free agency.
* Jose Calderon. Calderon has the same defensive problems that Beno has, and comes with the added problem that the Kings would have to send Udrih to Toronto to acquire Calderon, as well as one more negative: Jose is more expensive than Udrih. But the Spaniard is a great passer and a solid long-range shooter, and that's two of the three things (+ defense) the Kings need from Evans' backcourt mate. If Petrie wants to boost the offense at all costs, Calderon would help a bunch.
* Eric Maynor. How badly do the Thunder need size? Almost assuredly not badly enough to trade Maynor for Thompson. But it's a call you make. Maynor is a good shooter and has shown to be a good playmaker in the NBA. Hard to judge his defense, but I feel comfortable saying it's not as bad as that of Udrih or Brooks.
* Mo Williams. Read Calderon's entry again. Williams is a few million cheaper overall. If Cleveland wants help cleaning the books, Williams shouldn't cost an asset beyond cap relief and Milwaukee's second round pick. But again, you're sacrificing defense (and cap space going forward) for much-improved playmaking and (theoretically) shooting.
And finally, my dream scenario (other than that whole time-machine-fix-the-lottery-John-Wall-dance scheme):
* Chauncey Billups. Denver won't trade Billups until Carmelo Anthony is gone or about to be gone. And truth be told, I can't imagine Billups would be thrilled with a trade to Sacramento. But consider that Billups has been one of the most efficient scorers in the NBA, a great scorer and playmaker, a tough hombre and a pro's pro, and a fine defender for the last decade or so. His career is winding down, but he's not that old (34) and his game has never been predicated on athleticism or speed. The Kings would have the option of paying him $14 million next season, or taking a $3.7 million hit and waiving him, so he's not nearly the financial anchor Calderon or Williams would be.
That said, the biggest reason I'd love love LOVE for the Kings to grab Billups should the Nuggets make him available sometime soon: this Adrian Wojnarowski story.
Looking back, Chauncey Billups thinks about his immaturity, the seasons lost to foolishness, and it makes sense he’s here. He thinks of the loneliness, a lost soul drifting until Terrell Brandon reached down and lifted him with wisdom and guidance. Yes, he’s making up for lost time now, a thirtysomething determined to thrust himself into every championship circumstance left in his basketball career.
Mostly, he loves the mentoring. He talks to these Team USA kids in the buses, the hotels, moments of truth on the basketball court. He doesn’t lecture. This is a burden of responsibility that he goes out of his way to take upon himself.
This team needs a playmaker, a defender, a scorer, a leader. But most of all, this team and its star need a mentor like Billups. I honestly can't think of a better fit for the Kings than him right now.
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IS IT SAFE TO SAY...
That w/o Reke in the lineup attendance would drop even further?
Hard work beats talent when talent is hardly working...
I disagree...
I think that fans want to see competitiveness and wins more than they would worry about who it is that’s playing. At least that’s my take. I personally wouldn’t care if it was the most unknown starting line up in the NBA as long as they showed teamwork and won some games!
I was uncool before it was cool
Is it possible
That the Maloof’s think it would hurt attendance and are pushing to keep Reke in the lineup if at all possible?
Hard work beats talent when talent is hardly working...
I'm pretty sure the Maloofs would want to not risk their star getting a bigger injury by playing hurt.
I’m also pretty sure they let the coach run the day-to-day.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
If that is true
Then why would they allow PW to keep playing Reke when he is injured?
Don’t want to risk injury to their star player
Don’t want to meddle as you say
Something has to give… be it ankles, pride or…
Hard work beats talent when talent is hardly working...
AH HAH!
Thank you for saying that… I was wondering how so many on here knew he was injured and basically know so much, pretty much know it all…
Hard work beats talent when talent is hardly working...
Cross-examination fail!
Jury doesn’t buy it.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Um
He has acknowledged that he is injured. Everything else is based on observation of how his play has been different.
Never forget, I'm an idiot.
He told me he had a bone spur in his ankle...
but he added that it’s a common injury that he just has to play through. I’m not completely sure about this, but I don’t think a bum ankle makes your decision making completely go out the window. He just isn’t learning from the mistakes he is making.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
He just isn’t learning from the mistakes he is making.
That’s a tough pill to swallow, but that might be the reality for right now. I still think it’s a bit of both his decision making and ankle, and still think this part of the season is where old habits will die hard for this team.
As far as the injury affecting him, his usually explosive first step is lacking, and he hasn’t really used his patented Euro two step for the last few games.
"You can have the knowledge that a tomato is a fruit, but it takes wisdom not to put it in a fruit salad." Jerry Reynolds
He might be making bad decisions
because of the lack a good decisions available to be made. That lane is really jammed up because of our lack of shooters and ball movement. If you have Reke’s game, what do you do when the lane is jammed up? Until that jump shot falls he has few good options.
Maybe PW could move him to weak side, and he could cut to recieve the ball close to the basket before a DT can arrive.
I don’t know….
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Posted something similar in my FanPost
I think the Kings need a shooter more than anything. Billups would be nice though, we’d probably have to outbid a couple contenders for him though.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
Carl Landry is great
but its too bad we had to give up our best shooter in order to acquire him. Since outside shooting is such a glaring need right now.
Ba-da
Carl Landry for Andrea Bargnani
That is my new idea that I think can be and should be done. Bargs is actually a better defensive rebounder than Carl, and we won’t need Carl’s offensive rebounding if our outside shots are actually going in thanks to Bargnani, who thus spreads the floor, clears the paint, and frees up easier shots for Reke/Cousins/everyone else.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
I think they would
They don’t have anyone that can take care of business inside, while they have plenty of shooters.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
Why?
They’re already saving a ton of money in this deal the way it is. Dalembert doesn’t fit their system at all. They tried something similar with Jermaine O’Neal a few years ago that worked terribly.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
do you really want that contract though?
especially for such a defensive liability? I mean, if we wanted him, we should have just kept Spencer. he isn’t as good, but he’s much closer to market value.
Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."
For what Bargnani will give us, I don't mind that contract
As for defense, statistically he’s a better defender than Carl has been in the post, and a better defensive rebounder as well (that part isn’t saying much).
Bargnani gives us a guy who can drop 30 a night, efficiently. His contract is essentially the one Kevin Martin had. Probably less. He spaces the floor. The things we’d lose with Carl: Offensive Rebounding, Paint scoring. The thing is with Cousins and Reke, we already have guys who can bang it out down low. Bargnani gives us a different option that doesn’t really harm us, plus he’ll be with us through his prime. He also hasn’t been plagued with injuries at all either.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
That really is nice thinking
I would love to have him, and while I appreciate Landry, his lack of impact on defense and the defensive boards make him expendable, in my eyes. Bargnani would really add an interesting dimension, and a few inches, to the PF position. Nice work.
isn't that miller?
remember brad miller? isn’t he the same/similar type of player? i mean, miller helped spread the floor. sure miller didn’t shot the 3 ball’s too well but he could definitely hit the 18 footers or so. plus miller’s defense rebounding wasn’t that bad. his defense in general wasn’t so great but i don’t see bargnani being a better defender.
Spencer Hawes 2.0??
ok he is better than hawes but same type of player.
...
donte and derrick favors and some picks goes to denver, new jersey gets mello, kings get harris and another player from nets to make the math work.
Nets
a pick would come from nets because denver wanted young players, picks and salary cap relief. theyre getting mello and the kings are the facilitators because of their salary cap.
We may also have to give up one of our 2 second rounders in this as well..They are losing 2 guys for 1, and they are losing a a high 1st round pick, and one of their top point guards right now.
Founder of team Omté Caspeen
...
i would give up a second round pick for harris instead of trying to develop a new point guard which the kings dont have
A 2nd round pick for Devin Harris?
Are you kidding?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
why not?
Can’t build from the draft forever. the best a 2nd round pick can be is a bench player, and the kings have enough of that.
Well apparently not.
Good luck getting Billy King to agree to that.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe
for a player like mello the kinicks and nets probably would
Yeah, I was wondering when you would get around to that.
I mean, the Kings have their own version of Carmelo Anthony lying around somewhere! I knew it!
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
At least some of those trades have intelligent design to them.
This idea had nothing.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Look further above i was asking him where the picks come from that he was talking about pookey
What we were speaking of is this
Plus the nets throw in a pick and we throw in a 2nd rounder
Founder of team Omté Caspeen
Ohhh WW. This explains much.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
....
i dont understand your arguement, but i think harris would beat out billups and brooks in the long run. i worry if we took billups he would probably be a rental for like a year and used as a trade chip for a contending team. or after his contract runs out in 2 years he signs with a contending them and the kings are back to square 1.
It explains where you were coming from.
What WW explained and what you were talking about are 2 different things.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Vaguely similar player
WAAAAAAY better than spencer however
by lchristmas on Nov 26, 2010 8:16 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I like Landry
but Bargnani is better than Landry and every other player on the Kings, including you-know-who. Toronto isn’t that stupid.
"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."
by NewEraKings on Nov 27, 2010 1:46 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
He is a major league scorer
And its not like the are laden with talent. I dont see them giving him up, though I would love to have him.
I kinda like Bargnani for the Kings
Even though he is a terrible defender and rebounder. He would be perfect offensively, just drive and kick.
I don’t see Toronto trading him, he is their last hope.
"You need to get real!"
The problem is that we need a GOOD and complete player in the backcourt.
Tyreke, for all of his successes, is a very flawed player currently.
I believe that Tyreke is still our future as the dominant ball-handler on this team (as I have said prior, if he is NOT that player, we should trade him). That being said, we need a player that can play defense, handle the ball in spurts while Tyreke learns the position, and can hit the three. In short, we need an exceptional NBA player.
I love the Billups idea, but those players are hard to find, and maybe harder to get to Sacramento. As for the others – I agree. We really don’t need them. We have Beno, we are just not using him well. We have dealt with his defensive short-comings before. Westphal should be able to scheme it so that we at least partially mask his deficiencies.
To nab Billups I think is realistic
The Nuggets are like 12 million over the lux tax and if they move Melo(which I think they will) then moving Billups almost entirely erases that gap. Luckily we can absorb Billups with our cap space outright, however, I would think we’d want Beno out and I would think that the Nuggets would want a back-up PG to Lawson. Luckily the Nuggets have a piece they want gone in JR Smith whose salary matches up to Beno’s.
I could totally see a Billups + Smith + 3 million cash for Beno and a 2nd rounder type trade going down immediately before or after Melo heads to NYC for Curry, Gallo, Randolph and a 1st rounder from the Spurs via a Wilson Chandler deal.
That gets the Nuggets under the Luxury tax now and saves them a lot of money over the course of these contracts while remaining somewhat competitive and adding picks/prospects to their roster.
Y dont we trade a protected 1st for Chandler
I think he’ll be a good combo with Tyreke
The more I think about AB
The less I want to see him in a Kings uni. I enjoy watching him play, and the Rockets are my next favorite team to root for after Sactown, but he is a career 42% shooter, and he is not shy. He is lightning quick, yet gets a remarkably low number of steals, especially for a guard (132 in 5600 career minutes), and his assist totals are average. Fun to watch, but I dont think he answers any of the questions on our team.
That's because he shoots a LOT of 3's at around 40% which is EXCELLENT
Shooting 40% from downtown is equivalent to shooting 60% from 2 point range. That’s what TS% does, it equalizes the shooting from distance with that from at the rim with FT shooting. Brooks is 42% is actually quite good in this instance. Brooks would be a fantastic addition to this team.
Time to spend the money and hire,
Coach K, or Coach Kal.
by MarcusC on Nov 26, 2010 11:25 AM PST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Marcus you are my favorite poster. Keep up the good work.
Anyone who can distract this group from being unable to laugh or cry deserves credit. I don’t even know if you are real or conjured and that adds to the fun.
Thanks.
by betweentheeyes on Nov 26, 2010 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
bad editor (see you aren't the only one)
It should read being uuable to decide whether to laugh or cry
by betweentheeyes on Nov 26, 2010 11:34 AM PST up reply actions
I bet Joe and Gavin still have velcro wallets...
Hard work beats talent when talent is hardly working...
I got depressed the other day at the movies.
The kid (literally, he was 8) buying snacks in front of me had more cash in his Hot Wheels velcro wallet than I had on me.
He could afford the jumbo popcorn!
This.
Did you fall asleep on your space bar for a minute there?
"Cousins is the Blaster to Evans’ Master, the Hammer to Evans’ Sickle"- HP
by tomroadrunner on Nov 26, 2010 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
what about George Hill from the spurs
he would be a nice fit at he PG they just signed Tony Parker to a long term deal
Aykis inspired revision with Toronto.
Toronto sends: Calderon, Bargnani and Evans
Kings deal: Dalembert, Landry and Beno
Kings new roster:
C: Cousins, Thompson, Whiteside
PF: Bargnani, Evans, Jackson
SF: Greene, Casspi
SG: Evans, Garcia, Wright
PG: Calderon, Head, Jeter.
I hate Calderon's contract
But I could see this trade happening.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
It would probably make us better
Calderon is a better passer and long range shooter than Beno, while being about the same defensively (both horrible).
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
this would effectively make us Toronto West
and the worst defensive team in the NBA for the next 3 years
Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."
It is VERY rare that you see two rotation players traded to a single team,
in return for 2 other rotation players.
"Cousins is the Blaster to Evans’ Master, the Hammer to Evans’ Sickle"- HP
by tomroadrunner on Nov 26, 2010 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
i absolutely LOVE this trade to happen, c’mon petrie.. bargnani for offense and reggie evens for defense/rebounding.. we still have whiteside(though kid still needs sometime), a legit shot blocker as replacement for dalembert, and don’t forget youth is on his side. though i would want reke to stay with us since he has developed a chemistry with reke in the backcourt already, maybe a jeter+2nd round pick instead of us giving up beno? what do you guys think? i just can’t give up on beno that easily, i still remember those flashes of brillance he showed us last year.. and while we’re at it, why not include wright & jackson & 1st round pick for blake griffin! or if this trade works out, trade bargnani for blake staright-up, both are number 1 picks anyway.LOL! .,.we’ll have cousins,blake,greene/casspi,reke,calderon.
by 2001-2004_Kings4ever on Nov 26, 2010 6:28 PM PST up reply actions
i ment beno, in the “reke to stay with us since he has developed a chemistry with reke in the backcourt”
by 2001-2004_Kings4ever on Nov 26, 2010 6:29 PM PST up reply actions
Would we be able to use evans the same way?
Because his rebounding skills are Awesome!
Before the Kings take a chance on Chauncy
It’s almost like the brunt of the blame is being direct at Beno. The reason Beno’s defense is so noticeably deficient this season is that we fans all expected the interior defense to improve. This was a pre-season about the trees in the paint.
The deficiencies in running the offense – which Beno does well and Luther Head not that poorly – are secondary to the defensive inadequacies. The interior defenders and rebounders were supposed to cover guard break down. It hasn’t happened. And so a backcourt mate for Tyreke is the demand of the day.
by betweentheeyes on Nov 26, 2010 11:35 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
OUTSTANDING!!!
Yes!
We are of like mind. You have stated more concisely than I have been able to, precisely what I feel.
The defensive issues are not because of Beno. He has been the same player for his whole career. No one player should be the reason why our team defense is breaking down – especially a backcourt player. I always envisioned an overplaying backcourt, one that chases guys off their spots and encourages penetration – right into the teeth of our newfound shotblocking. That is the value of an elite shotblocker. He covers for defensive inadequacies. Dalembert is our goalie. The breakdowns are often the fault of our other frontcourt players, who are not rotating. There is NO reason that our defense should be this poor. This lack of basic basketball is exactly why I think Westphal should be shown the door.
yup
Beno has not changed one bit. Tyreke is now playing horrible defense beside him and the team defense looks like they don’t even practice.
by lchristmas on Nov 26, 2010 8:24 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Beno does deserve a lot of the blame, the fact that he's the best pure shooter shouldn't disguise that
The difference between Heads scoring, getting starters minutes and Beno getting starters minutes is less than 2 pts per game. So, Beno is and never was the answer to the offense, but he always has been part of the cause for the defense.
The falacy was that the Kings needed a goalie to cure all the exterior defensive problems.
Using TZ’s chart the defense by just inserting Dalembert only improved 2 out of 5 games. But, the defense has been better in the all the games since Head and Donte started except in the Clippers game when Dalembert only played 9 minutes.
The other falacy is that the Kings we’re a better offensive team before the Kings made the defensive lineup changes. We won 3 games by a total of 7 pts against 3 of the worst teams in the league. That is not proof that the offense was anything more than lucky.
I think the main point of TZ’s post is that the Kings would be better off with Head than almost anyone else he mentioned, IF Tyreke were a better distributor and the Kings didn’t play such a predictable offense.
That’s why Billups and my choice Andre MIller, would be good short term replacements for Head while Tyreke and the rest of the core learned to play off of movement instead of isolation. And, I think that Head and Beno would be a good reserve backcourt.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Nov 26, 2010 4:53 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You've posted that same sentence in more than 2 threads
how about some explainations or facts to back it up. Like a history of Miller being a problem. And, what has Reke got to do with Roy? Do you know for a fact the Millers problems would carry over to playing with Evans? Do you know what Millers problem are at all? And, how did it relate to the teams play? Because as I remember it, Portland had a better record than us, and made the playoffs.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Well,
I do remember a lot on Blazers Edge last year. Most of the conflict was between Miller and MacMillan, not Miller and Roy. It mostly had to do with the fact that the ball wasn’t to be in Miller’s hands as much as he was used to. It was a helluva adjustment, but I think that they were all on the same page by the end of the season. I have not heard of any issues this year.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Here
This was one of the last posts that I saw regarding issues between Miller and MacMillan. Again, I think that this is all water under the bridge at this point.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
How possible/likely is Greene at the 2
Does anyone know if PW has tried this out or discussed it?
Ballhandler: Tyreke
Starting Wing: Greene
Startin Wing: Casspi
+2 bigs
Im not a basketball guru, I can’t even say I played in HS but my logic is….
1. Greene provides Defense/Casspi brings offense
2. The Kings don’t run an offense anyways, choosing to go 1on1 a lot, so why not take advantage of mismatches that THE KINGS can create. The opposing team would be torn on who to put their PG on. Tyreke, or Greene.
We need another ballhandler out there with Tyreke
We have to trade for someone that can create his own offense
An opposing backcourt of average quickness
Would absolutely run circles around this group. We are already not quick enough without “going big.”
by lchristmas on Nov 26, 2010 8:27 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Neither Greene or Casspi is an NBA starter at this point
So starting both of them is just asking for serious trouble.
"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."
Who would you be starting
If we have to develop one of them to be? Or would you be starting Cisco at the 3?
Probably Greene
With Casspi, then Cisco.
Although at this point, Cisco probably needs to be on the court more to stop the bleeding.
"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."
by NewEraKings on Nov 28, 2010 10:17 AM PST up reply actions
Just not sure about getting someone of Billups' age
Point guards seem to be aging better than in years past, but I’m concerned about him being much more than a short term solution.
I think Teague would probably be the best combo in terms of shooting and defensive potential, but then, the Hawks seem to agree. (it’s also possible I’m biased)
I don't even care if he's a short-term solution
Like Ziller says, his mentoring would be the most valuable thing we would gain. I am convinced more and more everyday that these young guys need a PLAYER to look up to, and there probably aren’t many better mentors in the league than Billups.
Add in the fact that we really shouldn’t be giving up anything valuable because we’d mostly be helping Denver get under the luxury tax, and I’d be all for trading for him.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Nov 26, 2010 2:44 PM PST up reply actions
Tyreke doesn't nearly look as explosive as he use to.
His ankles may end up being his achilles, :). I learned he has “Plantar Fasciitis”. That is horrible news for an athlete, since it causes; weight gain, heel pain, foot deformation, and knee problems. It will most certainly affect his career and will get worse, but I also hear there is a surgery that can be done.
by MarcusC on Nov 26, 2010 11:48 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Learned from who?
I learned he has "Plantar Fasciitis".
Hard work beats talent when talent is hardly working...
Via Jason Jones and the Sacramento Bee
Plantar Fasciitis reported 10 /20 here.
Sprained ankle reported 11/16 here.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Nov 26, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
+1 for the assist to MarcusC
It’s the players job to keep the coach happy, not the coach’s job to keep the player happy. - Paul Westphal quoted from The Purple Panjandrum
He just needs to go to the good feet store
Seriously though Plantar fasciitis usually does not require surgery and while it may take a long time to heal, the effects you mention such as foot deformation are unlikely.
I'm feeling like I want to rage...right now.
-#38
I agree with the Billups idea.
Only for the right price, since he is getting past his prime.
by MarcusC on Nov 26, 2010 11:53 AM PST via mobile reply actions
this team is looking a lot like last years new jersey nets
i really hope there not gonna be fighting for the worst record ever
That's a bit of an overreaction.
I’m pretty sure they’ll win more than 5 more games.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
with all the talk at how good petrie is good at drafting look at this
Jason Thompson – 1st round pick, is now riding the bench receiving DNP’s
Omri Casspi – 1st round pick, benched sometimes cant even get in games
Spencer Hawes – 1st round pick, cant play, traded
Quincy Douby – 1st round pick, D-league material
with the exception of Tyreke Evans you would have to say that this is not good drafting at all.
coaching does not have alot to do with not being able to finish around the basket
also Jason has no post moves at all
Agreed
JT’s offensive skills are not great. But he can still score some, is a strong rebounder, not a bad defender and brings hustle and energy. He could be a solid contributor and rotation player on many teams, just like he was last year here. But now, he’s the victim of experiments by his coach to play at 3 and now seems to be lost and confused, like so many of his teammates.
Not that long ago, Casspi was the main contributor in wins over Cleveland (20 points, 6 of 7 from 3) and Toronto (14 points, 3 treys in the last 9 minutes). He also scored a team high 17 points in the loss to the Wolves. He got a rep for being a bad defender in that game because Beasley exploded, but (1) no-one could stop Beasley that night (2) Omri was actually putting a hand in his face on most shots he made (3) it later turned out that that game was not a fluke for Beasley and (4) the Kings team defense was horrible at the team.
I am not saying that Casspi is a great defender, but he isn’t as bad as people make him out to be. Still, suddenly Casspi went from a starter who had big roles in 50% of our wins so far, to DNP-CD’s.
And where are we now? In both his last 2 games, he scored 9 points. That is not much, but take into account that the team as a whole scored no more than 83 points as a whole in each game, and Omri reached these 9 points in 15 and 19 minutes respectively. I would say that we could use more of that.
Casspi can be a good pro, if PW doesn’t screw things up beyond repair.
Dunking Dutchman
by RikSmits on Nov 26, 2010 10:55 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Great points rik
What is being done with omri is absurd
by lchristmas on Nov 26, 2010 11:33 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Jason looked far smoother offensively in college than he does now
He is now playing against much better competition, of course, but his confidence is shot. He now misses open 4 footers with regularity, and that ain’t because of the nba defenders. He is stuck in his own head.
Operation Ruin Casspis Confidence and Get His Agent to Ask For A Trade seems to be well under way as well.
by lchristmas on Nov 26, 2010 8:49 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
DK - pls add this to Douby's line: Turkosh League Star
which is more than AI can say a the moment.
It’s the players job to keep the coach happy, not the coach’s job to keep the player happy. - Paul Westphal quoted from The Purple Panjandrum
In the face of this argument, particularly regarding JT:
Aykis’ summary of all of Petrie’s draft picks, including notable misses for each year.
How many impact players did Petrie miss with these picks? Often, not many.
by lead_pipe on Nov 26, 2010 7:30 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
i know this sounds crazy, but since no line-up is working now
and we’re getting nothing consistent at 3, really.
what about trying a Beno, Garcia, Reke (3) start? Then we have two jump shooters, and Reke can defend 3, and drive all he wants while Landry and Bert clean up.
then bring in Head, Donte and Casspi as second unit with Cousins and Thompson.
I would not be remotely opposed to Chauncey Billups.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Billups is not coming to Sacto, sorry to break it to anyone.
He wants to retire in Denver.
by VirginiaBlue on Nov 26, 2010 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
Thank You Chauncey Billups for that reply.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Nov 26, 2010 1:00 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Bad enough that he would be willing to forfeit his salary so that the Nuggets don't have to pay the luxury tax?
I understand what you’re saying, but the decision may not be up to him.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
This all boils down to
understanding what kind of player Tyreke will turn out to be. And I honestly don’t know.
As I see it, there are four kind of playmakers:
1. the facilitator (prototype Mo Cheeks/Stockton, classical point guard, knows how to set the pace of the game, when to change it, makes sure that the plays are executed and which palyer should get the ball where. Nothing fancy, but efficiently faciliates his teammates);
2. the distributor (protoype Magic/Nash/Chris Paul, the guy who makes plays off his penetration and ballhandling, often flashy and spectaclular, a decent scorer, but still with a pass first mentality)
3. the creator (prototype Iverson, Aaron Brooks, the guy who can penetrate easily and creates often for himself and less often for others, scoring at a high clip while having a decent amount of assists, a combo guard)
4. the passing superstar (prototype Bird, LBJ, Bryant, enough said.
Clearly. Tyreke has no pass first mentality yet and has too many skills to become a type 1 player. That would be a waste. He is also far away from being a 2 type, but if he really sets his mind to it, he may become a lower echelon distributor. It’s too early to say whether Tyreke will ever become a superstar. He has still a lot to learn. I rule out type 4. Right now, type 3 seems to be the most likely path Tyreke is going down.
Maybe it is good to see what kind of guards play(ed) succesfully next to type 3 guards. Brooks has Kmart. Let’s rule him out, but a long range bomber would be a good fit. Iverson had Eric Snow, a type 1 facilitator and a hard nosed defender. I’m suremany here can find more or better examples, and also have a better view of which players that are now in the NBA would fit the bill.
I for one, would love to get Arron Afflalo. A good defender, decent ballhandler and high percentage from 3 point range.
Dunking Dutchman
by RikSmits on Nov 26, 2010 1:01 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I like your analysis, but I don't believe that Evans is really there yet
Which is why he’s so easy to defend. He need more time to find the right balance of getting to the rim, pulling up for the short to midrange jumper, and finding his teammates near the basket as well as out at the 3pt arc.
I find it a failing of the coaching staff to believe that teams wouldn’t find a way to defend Evans. And, that they didn’t work on helping him get more variety in his game, Including learning how to run the pick and roll.
So, why I think your idea bares merit, I think it’s premature. What we need is a facilitator who can defend like Head, and a mentor for Tyreke until he learns to have more sides to his game.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
I never implied he is "there" yet
But I gave templates in order to make a bit of an educated guess what “there” will be for him. I think we can both agree that he will never be a facilitator, and has long ways to go before he can become a good distributor, and now seems on the shortest path to be a creator (if he can develop a mid range or long range shot).
I’m sure the organization has a better view than we have, but my guess is that he just doesn’t have the mindset to look for other’s shot before he looks for his own. And I fear it is difficult for him to develop such a mindset. Also, I wonder if he still is effective if he won’t have the ball in his hands for most of the time. Right now, he doesn’t seem very comfortable playing off the ball.
My point is that he Kings must now either thrust him in the playmaker role and see this season whether they should go down that road or find a true facilitator or distributor.
Right now, there are very few facilitators out there. Only Chris Duhon comes to mind right now, and doesn’t leave me jumping up and down in anticipation.
Dunking Dutchman
He would do this why? Because he loves to teach on a losing team?
Or he likes to play golf? Wishful drinking …
Last time I checked
NBA players don’t usually get the option to say “no” when they’re traded.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
Unless they are Bird players..Then they can so no, because a trade makes them give up their bird exception
Bird rights
Must receive consent to trade players with a 1 year contract, excluding options, who will become early bird, or bird free agents at the end of their contract, or players who have accepted a qualifying offer for a 5th season following the 4th option season on the rookie scale. If the player consents, he will lose his bird rights and become a non-Bird free agent at the end of the contract.
Founder of team Omté Caspeen
Tyreke must be hurting
just take a look at this and notice the difference. But a few other things are evident as well…
In that mix, every time he drives, count how many people are standing in the paint. Spacing has been a huge issue so far, and part of that is because the kings are so slow getting into their sets. And remember that crazy euro step that was his bread and butter last year? How many times has he used in this year? I think the pain caused by his plantar fasciitis is keeping him from using that move because of all the weight he needs to put on each foot. Any person that has had plantar fasciitis will attest to how much it would hurt if you tried something like that. He used that move to avoid charges, and I think you can attribute that to why he has had so many of them this season.
I think the kings have to go back to what worked on offense last year, namely starting beno at 1 and tyreke at 2, and put the ball in Beno’s hands much more often. Want to know why the offense stinks? Because there is no pick and roll action, which is the bread and butter of nearly every basketball team, NBA or high school. Tyreke’s inability to find rollers and the fact that everyone goes under picks on him combine to make the kings terrible on offense. It doesn’t help that he hardly ever pushes the ball.
I know the D will take a hit with beno starting, but we will just have to suffer with it. Tyreke needs to get better on D as well, and his injury has made him even more lazy than last year; I think its tyreke’s issues that have made Beno look worse on D than last year. But Beno is spectacular at the pick and roll, and we need more of that to get back to being a good offensive team. In time, with Greene and Dalembert in the starting lineup, the defense will improve. And luther head will be great coming off the bench (I mean really, streaky deep shooter, scorer first, excellent defender…isn’t that the defenition of a 6th man??) and the team will stabilize.
I have liked Westphal from the begining, but I’m sick of him coaching himself out of games. His tinkering has really hurt the kings this year, and hopefully he will get back to the original starting 5 that was planned during the offseason: Beno, Tyreke, Greene, Carl, and Dalembert. Head, Cousins, Thomson, Cisco off the bench. Omri with some spot minutes. Done. The coaches job is to get the most out of your current roster. This lineup has its holes, but thats a personnel issue, not a coaching issue. I just hope he figures this out before he’s fired.
Thats my rant. time to find some leftover turkey.
Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."
by Ellimist on Nov 26, 2010 1:05 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
That video shows a lot
He’s really seemed to lack that explosive burst of speed this year. He has a great ability to change up his speed, but this year he’s been going at one speed and that I think can definitely be attributed to the injuries.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
Absolutely
Also…anyone else notice two things about that video?
1. The middle was open why Tyreke drove in there, and
2. Spencer Hawes was the screener for more of the pick plays
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 26, 2010 5:49 PM PST up reply actions
I definitely think that Spencer had a bigger effect on the team than people think.
And not all of it was negative.
"Cousins is the Blaster to Evans’ Master, the Hammer to Evans’ Sickle"- HP
by tomroadrunner on Nov 26, 2010 11:04 PM PST up reply actions
for the most part
he was a pretty effective offensive player
by MichaelMack on Nov 26, 2010 11:12 PM PST up reply actions
I was thinking the same thing
It wasn’t a huge effect, but being here for 3 years counts for something. I seem to remember him and Beno had some chemistry on the pick and roll; Spencer would occasionally find Beno on the cut to the basket.
"You can have the knowledge that a tomato is a fruit, but it takes wisdom not to put it in a fruit salad." Jerry Reynolds
oj mayo?
"After this, I'm gonna kick Bob Arum's ass."
-George Lopez
Perfect match..
Trade Udrih,Garcia and Thompson to Warriors for Monta Ellis and Brendan Wright.Ellis great shooter and can (will) play PG and Great defender.Wright can be valuable rebounder and if healty can play as starter.Also Wright seems to be on trading floor.So I think with this trade we get offense and some D on PG place.This would be perfect…
One thing's for sure,
paired with Ellis, Evans would look like Steve freakin’ Nash.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Helium
Ellis has made great strides this season, seems like it’s coming together for him this season BUT he is not a great defender. He is a gambling ball hawk who will get you steals and blocks and will also lose his man on d when he goes for the steal and gets out of position. I haven’t looked at their stats but I’d guess he’s a better defender than Beno. Ellis is maybe a marginal defender,
It’s the players job to keep the coach happy, not the coach’s job to keep the player happy. - Paul Westphal quoted from The Purple Panjandrum
Warriors aren't the brightest franchise in the world
but they would certainly hang up the phone right away.
Good article
I’m starting to lean more and more towards the need to trade for a veteran or veterans. This team may just be too young for its’ own good. I think Billups would be a great addition to help Evans with his growth as a player. If it can be done reasonably, then I think a trade for him should be done.
"You can have the knowledge that a tomato is a fruit, but it takes wisdom not to put it in a fruit salad." Jerry Reynolds
Baron Davis anyone....????
I know he’s a lil taboo, but he does have star power….which might help this team. He can create his own shot and is a good perimeter shooter. Might take some pressure off of Tyreke. The risk could be diminished financially if the deal were:
Beno + Cisco for Baron + Warren. In fact, we’d win out long term as Cisco and Beno make more combined. The clippers would do this because they do like Beno a lot and it breaks up Baron’s contract into ‘moveable’ pieces. Also, I like the idea of taking a flyer on Warren.
Not a leader
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.
by nothingbutnet on Nov 26, 2010 4:58 PM PST up reply actions
We are just awful
I can’t believe how nonchalant and disorganized the team plays. I would kill to see just ONE possession of team basketball out of these guys.
Cousins needs to get his head out of his a- -.
Evans is still trying to be an athlete instead of a basketball player.
Westphal is coaching like he doesn’t have a clue, probably because his players haven’t given him one.
The Kings have played 14 games and they’re the only team in the league without a silver lining. Oh wait, they’re the #2 offensive rebounding team in the league! Which would be great if they weren’t 28th in Field Goal Percentage.
We could make a trade but who on the roster is actually tradable at the moment?
The Kings are in basketball purgatory right now and we’re all held hostage.
KINGS FANS, TONIGHT WE DINE IN HELL!!!
by The Artist Formerly Known as CrownUs93 on Nov 26, 2010 2:33 PM PST reply actions
There
has to be a way to get Chancey here, W Chandler here, 1st rd pick (from us) to Denver, A Randolph, Casspi/Greene, Beno to Denver, Carmelo to NY.
Sacramento has a lot of problems
they need 3 pt shooting
a point guard
a better bench
without these things they are not going to win
I don’t see the Kings acquiring Chauncey sadly. Some other team will offer a much better trade. Also I think Denver would trade him to a winner in loyalty.
Jose Calderon isn’t worth trading for.
I don’t see Detroit giving up on Stuckey
Mo Williams I really like. I see him as an option.
I also like Ramon Sessions for a cheap pickup
For the bench I think the KIngs should go after Ben Gordon or Terence Williams
Don’t see why OKC would trade Maynor
"You need to get real!"
Ben Gordon $10,800,000 $11,600,000 $12,400,000 $13,200,000
No thanks
I'm feeling like I want to rage...right now.
-#38
Trade Cisco for him
The money is going nowhere. Its not like the Kings are going to use it on some superstar or even a good player.
I know he is overpriced, but at least he’ll be doing something. He would do a lot more than Cisco. I don’t see why he can’t be a sixth man of the year again. The Kings need to add offense. Ben Gordon provides that, he is capable of scoring 20 a night easy. He’s clutch and will win close games. Teams would not double team Reke with a lethal scorer at his side. Maybe you think thats way overrating Gordon, but the King’s offense needs drastic improvement.
Frankly all that cap space is hurting the team more than helping it. Therefore I feel like he’s worth it all. Just so the Kings start being competitive.
"You need to get real!"
I see where you are going with your arguement but I think it is incorrect.
No one in the organization has ever said they are unwilling to spend the money, but they aren’t going to spend it just to spend it. If top tier talent comes available they would likely attempt to acquire said player(s) with their space. Ben Gordon is not top tier talent but his contract is that of a top caliber player.
I'm feeling like I want to rage...right now.
-#38
I agree he is not
the problem with that is that who are they ever going to spend that money on.
If you are a free agent why do you want to play for the Kings?
No matter what for awhile the Kings are either going to have grossly overpay for a free agent or trade for one.
Rebuilding hasn’t turned out yet, at the current rate they seem no better than they were before, they seem worse.
Cousins and Tyreke have star potential, but thats 2-3 years down the line for that to really be successsful. Otherwise theres Carl Landry who I think is a good fit and a good player. I have no idea how Casspi will ever turn out.
The Kings either have to buy picks, grossly overpay on free agents, or take on large contracts. The Kings have not overpayed on any free agent, nor have they bought picks.
I agree Ben Gordon is overpayed, but not that overpayed. First of all you get rid of Cisco’s contract. He hasn’t made and impact and is the King’s worst contract. You trade him for a useful player that fills a lot of holes. He’s 27 years old and would be a great backcourt partner for Tyreke. Its great to think about the future, but i think its time to make moves. Sacramento has to give their fans something to cheer about or to get interested in.
You trade for Ben Gordon and sure you’re adding a bad contract, but its not Elton Brand or Baron David. The Kings are getting a player entering his prime with a lot of basketball in him. They are getting better and putting that money to use. Sacramento sparks interest and shows the fans they are trying, while getting better in the process.
"You need to get real!"
Just a difference of opinion and philosophies regarding this team of ours.
If there weren’t different opinions on this site, it probably wouldn’t exist.
I'm feeling like I want to rage...right now.
-#38
Strong yes....too strong no.
You back everything with valid and rational arguments. I am at a loss, and whatever the last rational argument I hear sounds good to me , and I sway.
I am very glad that GP has so much patience in waiting for the right deal because right now I’d be trading someone after every loss.
I would keep a core of Evans Cousins Casspi and Whiteside….and hope they develop. Greene fans can keep him and move it to 5. Everyone else I would trade if I could get a good deal. (Obviously, everyone is on the table for a top 5 player).
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
If your point is that the Kings should use their cap space to acquire a player via trade rather than free agency, I'm in.
If your point is that the Kings should use their cap space to acquire Ben Gordon, I’m out.
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 26, 2010 9:40 PM PST up reply actions
Unfortunately, and this is my opinion, too many teams attempt to “be competitive” while the very few elite teams in the league compete for the championship. Whether your game plan is to sign free agents (L.A. and Boston) or to build through the draft (Portland and OKC) you have to stick to your guns. If you over pay for someone that isnt going to put your team in a position to win it all under the banner of “being competitive” I feel like you put your self in a perpetual position to be almost good enough but never to win it all. It’s unfortunate but for small market teams like us we have to suffer through seasons like this to experience the full potential of what ever core G.P. can put together. I would rather suffer 10 terrible years at the bottom of the league to get a strong, talented, tough core that has a very good chance to win it all than spend those 10 years in the middle of the pack, appeasing the fans wanting a competitive team now.
Do you expect Evans and Cousins to be here in 10 yrs?
There is a very small window between when you have high draft picks and when you lose them. Three top 5 picks in a row and you maybe have 4 more year to be a contender, or they start leaving to find someone who they can win with, or your so deeply invested in their contracts that you are limited in you role players.
That’s why you need a great coach. One who can develop a system to take advantage of their strengths and hide their weaknesses. That’s why hiring a cheap coach to develop your prize draft picks, is penny wise and pound foolish.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
I understand this
all I am saying is that I would rather struggle for 10 years near the bottom of the league trying to find that set of players rather than to start signing guys who dont fit the mold and get stuck being perpetually mediocre. I believe that you do have more than 4 years after you get your pics to start contending, but not much. I also do believe that we have found our guys in Evans and Cousins and shouldn’t be spending our money to appease the fans who want wins now. Patience is a virtue for a reason. Your point about a cheap coach is very true, and you will find no argument from me.
I agree
I think you have to develop and keep your young talent happy while adding other talent. you can’t just do nothing and expect talent to stay. You have to add other good players and stay competitive while inching your way to the top.
I think the Kings ceiling is to make the playoffs.That should never be your ceiling, your ceiling should be to win it all. I don’t ever see the Kings coming close to that now. Therefore changes have to occur.
The Kings are a small market team and they should be using everything and scrapping to get better. I would rather overpay and be significantly better than having 13M and doing nothing with it and being a bad team
"You need to get real!"
Really
If a team has 10 straight losing seasons, I think very few people will support them and they would seize to exist.
"You need to get real!"
I don't know about the Clippers
but the Warriors argument is invalid
That was our sole appearance in the playoffs and since then we have not returned and are maybe 2 years away
"You need to get real!"
In the 1993-1994 season the warriors made the playoffs and lost in the first round, and again in the 2006-2007 season they made it and kicked the #1 Mavericks 4-2, in between those two appearances (1994-2006), the warriors had a losing record every season and did not make the playoffs.
The problem with the Offense isn't Head, it's Tyreke
He hasn’t changed his game and teams know how to defend him. If he were a better facilitator or if the coaching staff did a better job of coming up with real plays for him. The backcourt of Head and Evans would be fine.
But, that didn’t happen and Evans shouldn’t have to carry the weight of the entire offense in his 2nd season. He’s going to need at least another year to year and a half to learn to intergrate, the short & mid range jumpers and better playmaking into his game. That’s why I wanted the Kings to go after a PG in the FA market last summer.
For now, the addition of Dalembert, Head and Greene for defensive purposes has worked to perfection. Now, it’s up the coaching staff, to find a way to break down the defenses that other teams have come up with to stop Tyreke. Or, for GP to find a facilatator to run the offense until Evans can implement that on his own. If they do add someone he better play defense as well as Luther, and since it’s an intrim move until Tyreke can fill that need, I’m fine with a 34 year old vet if need be.
If the coaching staff can’t find a way to get there players to play offense as a team, then maybe it’s time for GP and the Maloofs to admit that they made another coaching mistake.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Miserable contract, while the others mentioned are shorter cheaper or unguaranteed
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Calderon isn't going to be traded to us
Jarret Jack’s just been traded off Toronto’s roster, thus Calderon is Toronto’s starter now. I wish I knew about this before a vulture flew in and picked him off waivers in my fantasy league.
nobody likes JR??
I dont know the contract situation with him… but if Denver does deal Melo and then probably Billups, would they be willing/wanting to move JR Smith as well?
I would love to see what he could do with 20+ fga’s per game. He is the kind of streak shooter that would put up points in bunches. He is a clear 2 guard, so that makes Tyreke the clear 1, which I think he is better suited for right now until he develops a jumper.
JR has a gunners shot selection, but lets face it, this year is just about lost and if we are losing (bad) why not at least make it kind of fun to watch.
My B option is Gilbert Arenas… maybe im in the minority, but i want an outside shooting 2 guard instead of a 1
Arenas
is due to make $60 million over the next three years (not including this one!). Awfully pricey. Pass.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
how about JR?
does anybody know his contract situation, and if Denver is shopping him before or hopefully after Melo is dealt?
Sham sports is your friend for contract numbers. And I’m pretty sure denver is always shopping JR Smith.
I'm feeling like I want to rage...right now.
-#38
Not a fan, personally
He has a 10 cent head, and he’s really streaky. His career 3 point percentage is on a par with Garcia, and just a little better than Udrih.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Yea I don't think this team needs any more knuckle heads.
I'm feeling like I want to rage...right now.
-#38
Seems like youre implying we already have some
And I’m just curious who you’re referring to
by lchristmas on Nov 26, 2010 8:40 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Don't get me wrong, I am fond of our squad
but this team isn’t exactly loaded with high basketball IQ guys. Now JR Smith…that’s a different animal. We definitely don’t need his presence in the locker room when we lack a veteran who can keep people in line and the team on the same page.
I'm feeling like I want to rage...right now.
-#38
Thats subtraction by addition right there
JR is not a good enough player to make a team put up with his behavior. The KIngs aren’t close enough to winning to deal for all his craziness and immaturity
"You need to get real!"
Meh
JR Smith has all the talent in the world, but his head is just not there. He’s not the right move for a young team
"You need to get real!"
going nowhere
realisitically this team could be very very bad by the trade deadline and much before. And our coach and very few of these players I see as much of a solution for the future. So im not necessarily saying its the “right move” bringing in JR. But at least it could be worth a shot and might be less horrific to watch if we had a player who could fill it up from time to time
Arenas
can the NBA pay part of the contracts by the traded team like MLB? Gilbert was an allstar at one point… we could take a shot and hope for a Zach Randolph type resurrection
No, they cannot
And Washington can’t send more than a total of $3 million in cash.
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Well
technically it’s 3 million per transaction. If they were to make 3-4 smaller trades simultaneously with the Kings, they could send 3 million each time and pay for the rest of this season or something….Maloofs might like that.
interesting
that becomes more (1 percent) of a realistic possibility. If they paid out the season plus another 9-12 mill for next year
Technically correct,
though unprecedented, I believe.
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There's not a rule against simultaneous or even a quick succession of deals between the same teams?
Seems like there would be.
"If you're going to lead the orchestra, you have to turn your back on the audience." -Geoff Petrie
by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 26, 2010 8:28 PM PST up reply actions
I don't know if there is a specific rule -
All deals have to be approved by the league office, so if you tried to circumvent the $3 million rule they would probably step in. I’ll tell you what – you’d have to make about 6 of those deals to offset Arenas’ contract to my liking – and that cash does not reduce the cap impact that Arenas’ contract would have.
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I actually believe Gil can change
I think his biggest risk is injuries. He has gone through hell for his antics and he isn’t a dumb guy. I doubt he will continue to push it and so on. His ego has taken a beating, but he’ll be alright. He’s a superstar in this league if he can stay healthy. I think he just needs direction. He wants to be good and go back to being the man.
He goes to a team with a coach who will say something like
Gil I don’t care about all that crap in the past and nobody else will either if you play like you are capable of. I want you to and need you to lead this team. i want to build a team around you. Oh and that coach needs to know how to play defense and have a great passing point guard.
Some team would be smart to get rid of bad contracts and have the Wizards pay for some of his salary
"You need to get real!"
ok
thanks Section, is there a buyout Wash can pay to release him? Im guessing its really steep… being the reason he is still in Washington. If he doesnt have a career revival I think that could go down as the worst contract ever
Well,
if they’ve offered, he hasn’t accepted. My bet is that the Wizards are waiting to see if the new CBA will give them a window of relief that is not currently available to them.
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How about not jumping to extremes.
Yes this team ATM sucks harder than a vacuum cleaner with a v8
But putting everybody into ridiculous trade scenarios isn’t going to help.
We have gone from good scoring & terrible defense to great defense and horrendous scoring in a matter of a week (Last night worst of both worlds, which is completely unacceptable, especially to a team that is on win-loss ratio definitely no better than us)
There has to be some way to get a better balance.
Perhaps either have Beno starting (or Head to start for first 5, switch to Beno for rest of quarter) With Reke for now, getting say 5-8 minutes less a game until his situation improves. So basically a more balanced 3 guard combo with Head strictly for Defensive purposes.
Or even giving Cisco more that extra 5-8 minutes less of Rekes at the 2, so Casspi and Green can pretty much switch most of the time.
Or if you want Head playing more in the 3 guard rotation, but keep Cisco in as well, play Greene at PF a little when Landry is off.
Dalambert & Cousins get extra playing time depending on performance and game scenarios. With JT being the backup.
These are just examples, but what I’m saying is there are more sensible ways to balance both out.
As far as trades etc, wait until the time is right and right deal is there. Right now we have a bunch of decent/medicore players and not much stardom. Tyreke isn’t in form, and he’s the closest thing we have to a star player.
Reke – Needs time to develop new strategies and improve his jumpers etc etc. Need to build around him. Not tradeable.
Beno – Good offensive weapon, terrible on D. Good stop, prop shooter and only PG who can run Pick and Roll. His D is a problem, but his Pick and Roll/setup value is too high to be able to just trade him without return. Only Trade him if there is an immediate Upgrade (PG who can run Pick and Roll, play some D and most importantly who could potentially work WITH Tyreke as good)
Head – Good Defender/Outside shooter. Can’t Run Offense. Good for Defensive purposes or to hit a 3 or two. Handy, and cheap but definitely expendable and either short term, or deep bench player in future (Unless he shows great improvement)
Cisco – Pesky Defender, Good outside shooter. Makes (Boneheaded plays at times, but is versatile. Seems to be team leader, and one of the only vets on this young team. Good overall TEAM player. Basketball skills may be expendable if right deal comes, but if he is really holding the fabric of this team together, at what risk is he traded?
Omri – A tough, Good scoring player who can light up that 3 at times. Can be too ambitious, sometimes lacks D, but 2nd year, still developing. Keep him and see how he pans out.
Donte – Probably best 1 on 1 defender on team. Not as efficient scorer, but when on song can hit the 3 (a little off lately). Potentially his ceiling is high, but how high that is depends on him. Tradeable if right deal comes, but his defense right now is his best asset for the entire TEAM.
Dalambert – Excellent low post, interior defender/shot blocker. Terrible Offense. One sided player, you know what you get, like his value, but my gut feeling is short term.
DMC – Hot and Cold, a lot depends on his foul trouble too. Still learning NBA game, but WHEN he does, look out! 1st year player, looks like another player to build around. Non tradeable.
JT – Unquestionable passion and hustle. 3rd year and still hasn’t sorted out his foul problems (Has been reasonably good lately). Great Rebounder, on his night can be a good scorer, but damn, get them 2 footers to fall!!!! Still should be considered part of the teams future as he is still improving. The type of coachable player probably every team wants as he brings effort and energy every night. Potentially better than what people expect, but is a Tradeable, espcially when team has 5 bigs (For the record, I’m in favor of keeping him as ultimately JT, DMC, Whiteside could be the future problem for 29 other NBA teams).
Landry – Undersized PF, who scores extremely well in low post. Fairly good Offensive rebounder, terrible Defensive rebounder. D is what he lacks. Like him, probably the man ATM to get a renewed contract out of him and Daly (Although both may not who knows), but if right trade is available, then could go. Tradeable.
DJ – Tough, Rebounder, can be an OK scorer, but too Hot and Cold. Should be 5th big and really no higher. Perhaps ideal for bunch, but probably not long term (Although would like to see him make, especially after hearing of his story).
Wright – Defender like Donte, except no scoring ability and less athletic. Short term.
Jetter – Hard to say. Quick and Apparently Good overall shooter, and can run an Offense (Perhaps as 3rd man), but apparently can be a little turnover prone??? Hard to judge because has yet to prove himself in NBA (Hopefully it works out for him, because have seen him shoot, and we seen how valuable having a quick spark off the bench can be ala Sergio Rodriguez), still to be seen, but yeah at this stage not long term, although hope he is.
Whiteside – Shotblocker. Great one at that. Think Kings are doing the right thing because he still is too raw for NBA, but Sky is the limit. Would love for him to be that shotblocker threat Daly is now for the future. Keep him and let him develop for now, give him a few minutes next year, then see how it goes.
To sum it up, no easy fix. I think another quality pick in the draft, and a trade/free agent signed or two that is right for the team is the way to go. No point in making trades for the sake of it, for no REAL improvement. But no clear cut answers here. PW to be coach? Interesting one as this team was no better without him, and part of the problems seem to be his rotations….verdict, come back to this one after all star break/ tough run.
This team does seem to play better against better opponents though. Plays to the tempo of other team. Overall Defense is the way to go to winning games, but fluency and proper strategy/plays are def. needed.
Well there’s my dollars worth paid in small change.
this is perhaps the worst stament ever made on this site
ATM sucks harder than a vacuum cleaner with a v8
I'm feeling like I want to rage...right now.
-#38
One option people aren't mentioning...
We struggle/muddle through this season with the current guard lineup and draft a guard in the lottery.
I know people (and probably the Maloofs as well) want to see a quicker solution, but right now I don’t think there is one that will be worth the cost.
The cheapest solutions is for the Coaching staff to find some plays for Tyreke to run
that don’t require going 1 on 5. And, then he has to learn to run them. Something like the pick & roll, which no one on the team seems to know how to run.
But, since it isn’t my money, I think picking up a PG who already knows these types of plays is worth the cost until Evans can learn to do it.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
off topic but
the Kings have to get an identity.
Whether they are an offensive focused or defensive focused team, it doesn’t matter.
At least then they are going somewhere. Right now rebuilding time is being wasted. I think they have to get a new coach and maybe even a new GM who is aggressive and has a plan.
"You need to get real!"
I think GP does have a plan
But his plan requires some patience
I'm feeling like I want to rage...right now.
-#38
I don't know if I am confident of that plan
the Kings rebuild and thats fine. But they haven’t really been rebuilding. i think its more that they have just been bad. Rebuilding and being at the bottom end of your conference are different things. They have tried to rebuild and failed and now have to RErebuild because of that
"You need to get real!"
See Sections article today.
The plan as I see it, is to build through the draft(which they are doing) until after the new CBA is reached. At that point you take the money you’ve saved and you become a player in a seller’s market. Now if they don’t step it up and spend some money next year then I think we have some real problems.
I'm feeling like I want to rage...right now.
-#38
Tyreke would be freaking deadly as a backdoor cutter in the *tear* Princeton offense
I miss the Princeton offense very, very much
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 26, 2010 9:42 PM PST up reply actions
He's done that and was fine, but I prefer an above the rim guy like Omri and Donte
And, Tyreke has shown that he can make that pass or lob already. We just don’t screen off the ball enough to free up those guys.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
So long as the solution doesn't entail
Tyreke hoisting up long 2’s & 3’s. He is shooting sub 20% from the 3 pt line so “shooting guard” he ain’t. He’s a slasher that can draw fouls and that’s about it. He’s not what I would call a “great” ball handler/floor leader either.
Interestingly enough, while we haven’t much success at outside shooting we have 3 players shooting over 37% from 3 (Garcia, Casspi, Head), but they aren’t getting much PT and when they are on the court they’re not getting the ball enough from you know who.
Our game plan lately has been pretty scatter-shot. For this team to succeed more we have to play to our strengths. Sammy rebound and block shots, no offense other than put backs. Landry & Boogie play close to the basket and play to their strength. Tyreke slash to the basket. Beno pick and roll and stop and pop. The 3 best long distance shooters play the 3 pt line, etc., etc., etc.
Purveyor of Bull Plop
I couldn't agree more about Evans' shot selection
in the preseason, I made a point that I’d rather not see him change his shot and try and work on the long range shooting at the same time. With his slashing style, I thought that the 10-15ft jumper was where he needed to work. It would keep the defense from waiting at the rim for him, and if they came out to guard him, it might leave an opening for a pass inside to a big or someone slashing from the outside.
I’m not sold on needing the 3pt shot as the only option to open up the floor. The Clippers don’t shot many 3’s and Griffin doesn’t have that tough of a time getting to the rim. I think Evans is hurting himself, by always waving off when one of the bigs comes out to screen for him. It just lets the screeners man sit back and wait, instead of leaving to help he man from getting screened. And, when is Evans ever going to run a Pick & Roll if he never works with a big out away from the basket.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Our lack of pick and rolls drives me crazy
We have three bigs who all have decent 12-15ft jumpers, you think it would be what we ran almost every play.
Z.....Thank goodness we are not killing trees over this issue...
Not updated on the "walkout" i.e. possible player strike that caused ownership not spending coin on the next ‘one’ or two (2) King stud[s.] If, they took such a risk on low ticket sales X (one more or) another bad year-why would they consider changing course-I am told absurd player deal(s) is just after overly extended teams, and player’s get beat up after strike…e.g. Our GM remains fat with future free agent spending cash…Ownership: remain liquid with bookoo cash. Both: GM and Owners smell-want “the” ring. However, I think money first and “ring” (or new quality player deals) second regarding M-Bros. After all, it is their nature to be patient when smelling mo-money-first.
awesome
"Cousins is the Blaster to Evans’ Master, the Hammer to Evans’ Sickle"- HP
by tomroadrunner on Nov 26, 2010 10:23 PM PST up reply actions
9 years ago
He led his team almost single handedly to the finals. Larry Brown coached them up and they built a team completely around him with role players like Mutumbo and Eric Snow.
Im not saying this is a good idea or in any way possible… and he is nowhere near the same player, im just saying he did lead a team to success a long time ago when he was given the chance to be the man
I'd follow him
We’d probably go to some fun places
by lchristmas on Nov 27, 2010 2:10 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Since it looks like we won't ever sign an all star
How about trading for someone’s agent! An agent would do the kings well and would more than likely lift the appeal of the kings to attract some quality vets to to play here. Agent ZERO any one?? He’d be a Tyrefic fit here
by Perezident of the Bahamas on Nov 27, 2010 9:17 AM PST reply actions
we need a shooter and a new coach
westfall is a lousey coach.with all that talent and he can not win games!FIRE him.also get a 3 ball shooter,something we do not have.the bulls will beat us silly tonight.until geoff pulls the trigger except the same loosing kings.i was hoping for a great season too……
by cowboyron96@yahoo.com on Nov 27, 2010 9:20 AM PST reply actions
totally agree
this team needs a leader. As for PW mixed feelings. I don’t like his ever changing line up. however, he’s trying to find something that works. And he was a good coach in Phoenix. I don’t think he became an idiot over night.
He took over a 50+ win team, and the GM added Barkley & Ainge
So I would give him too much credit for making it to the Finals, especially since 4 years latter they we’re a 41 win team. Also, he didn’t play one rookie in his first year at Phoenix.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Actually,
he played rookie Richard Dumas in 48 games at 28 minutes a pop, in spite of the fact the Dumas was basically playing behind Cedric Ceballos and Dan Majerle. He also got Oliver Miller into 56 games at 19 minutes a pop – Miller was behind Tom Chambers and Mark West.
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Also,
after his teams finished 62-20 ( a 9 game improvement from the year before), 56-26 and 59-23, he was fired when they got off to a 14-19 start in his 4th season – Cotton Fitzsimmons replaced him and they went 27-22 under Fitz. That team had undergone some turnover, as Chambers, Ceballos and Majerle were all gone.
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I did forget about Miller who was their #1 pick that year
but Dumas was a 2nd round pick in 91.
I might have over stated my point which was that Paul had a team of veterans and relied on them and not a team of rookies thru 3rd year players.
Miller got about 1000 minutes as the #1 draft pick in 92
Mackey got about 70 minutes as the #1 draft pick in 93
Person got 1800 minutes as the #1 pick in 94
And, Finley lead everyone in minutes with 3200 in 95
Chambers was gone in 93 when they won 56
Ceballos was gone in 94 when they won 59
Marjerle left in 95 but they had added Person and Finley, so I don’t believe you can blame the drop off in 95 on the loss of Majerle
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Not saying whose right or wrong here,
but Basketball-Reference.com lists Dumas as a rookie in ’92. Nevertheless, I think that it was less than accurate to state that Westphal did not play one rookie in his first year in Phoenix. That was all.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Do you know what is that Plantar Fasciitis Evans has?
Find out all about PF in this website:
http://www.plantar-fasciitis-elrofeet.com
Good Idea !
Take a look at this trade:
Kings Get: Gilbert Arenas,Thaddeus Young
76Ers Get: Francisco Garcia,Al Thorton,Donte Greene
Wizards Get: Samuel Delambert,Jason Kapno
Kings LineUp would look like: Arenas,Evans,Young,Landry,Cousins (Udrih,Head,Casspi,Thompson,Whiteside)
This would be magnificent :-)))
by Heluim on Nov 27, 2010 2:31 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
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