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Flying Coach

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One vote for Lawrence Frank 

As recently as this past June, there were a large number of people calling for the firing of Bruce Bochy. The fact that his team could not hit its way out of a paper bag was obviously his fault, and changes needed to be made. The Giants declined the opportunity to pack Bochy’s bags, opting instead to infuse the team with more talent (Buster Posey, Madison Bumgarner, Pat Burrell, Cody Ross), and less than five months later, Bochy was a certified genius.

 

What does this have to do with the Kings? Little, really. But I am still reveling in the Giants’ first world championship of my lifetime, and it continues to nourish me while the Kings drop game after game after game.


Star-divide

The one parallel here is that a manager or coach is often as good or bad as the talent level of the players on his team, and Paul Westphal is not dealing with a lot of current talent right now. Potential, yes. Actual current talent, no.

 

Dealing in the here and now, Tyreke Evans is the only player on the Kings roster that would be an NBA starter for a majority of other NBA teams, though this is based more on his performance last year than this year. The next closest player would probably be Samuel Dalembert. Carl Landry has more talent than Dalembert, but there is more NBA talent at power forward than at center.

 

The level of current talent is most evident at the small forward position. Donté Greene is the best defensive player, Omri Casspi the best offensive player, and Francisco Garcia the best blend. None of these guys really qualify as a complete NBA player right now. None of these guys would be starting for the majority of NBA teams. As of today, they are decent role players that could give specific positive minutes off the bench for most teams.

 

This is not to imply that the Kings have a roster full of suck. What they have is a roster full of either role players being asked to contribute beyond their level of talent (Dalembert, Landry, Thompson, Udrih, Garcia, Head), or guys with untapped potential (Evans, Cousins, Greene, Casspi, Whiteside).

 

Now, wave a magic wand and fulfill the potential of Evans, Cousins and either Greene or Casspi. Suddenly this becomes a halfway decent team. If these kids were currently playing at a level that we hope they attain within the next year or two, then Dalembert’s contributions would fit quite well in the starting lineup. Find a real backcourt partner for Evans and you’re in great shape. Landry, Thompson, Udrih or Garcia, and Greene or Casspi make for a pretty solid bench.

 

Alas, my magic wand is in the shop, so we are not likely to see this turnaround this year. So Paul Westphal is saddled with a team of role players with little upside, and upside players who can’t seem to learn their role.

 

This is not to say that Westphal does not play a role in the underperformance of this team. He certainly has to be held at least somewhat accountable, and he may be largely accountable. What can’t be determined at this point is how much/how little influence he has had on the current suckitude.

 

So the issue has become, should Paul Westphal continue "forward" with this team, or should a coaching change be made?

 

As I have noted previously, I’m not against a change, but I am against a change just for change sake. If you’re going to bring in a new coach, it has to be someone that can move this team forward. (The exception to this would be if Westphal loses this squad, which I do not believe has occurred yet. If that happens, show Westphal the door and give the keys to Mario Elie, at least for the time being.) And by move forward, I mean develop the youth. This does not mean benching the veteran players. It simply means working with the youth so that they see improvement in themselves, day by day.

 

And therein lies my sole concern with Westphal as of right now. Where is the progress in the youth of this team? The season is reaching the 20% point, and I’m not seeing progress in the youth of this team. And that concerns me a million times more than 10 losses in the last 11 games. I really don’t care about the wins and losses this year. We are still in the midst of a rebuild. But the lack of progress amongst the youth of this team is startling, if not alarming. Yes, the players themselves are at least somewhat responsible. But as young players, they need guidance and direction. Are they receiving that? Because it is certainly not translating to the floor.

 

Now for the catch. The Kings could theoretically go out and find a coach steeped in developing youth, but the makeup of this team could turn on a dime if/when the Kings utilize their cap space and obtain one or more key veteran players, perhaps dealing some their youth in the exchange. If/when that happens, would the development-minded coach be rendered obsolete? Would you then need that next coach, that upper echelon guy?

 

So I pose the following questions, for which I have no real answers:

1)     Do you replace/retain Westphal now, and if so, why?

2)     What type of coach do you bring in to replace him?

3)     Do any particular coaches spring to mind, and if so, who?

Thanks in advance for your responses. Now if you’ll excuse me, my DVR awaits – Giants-Rangers, game 5.

Comment 122 comments  |  6 recs  | 

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Changing the coach would just be a waste of money IMO

not to mention the young guys would have to go through yet another change.

There aren’t really good candidates out there that would blow Westphal away. PW needs time to implement his system, and I find it rash that people are asking for his firing.

When this team beat the Wolves by one, I saw it as a bad sign and predicted we’d be one of the worst teams in the league. Everyone else seemed to think the team was bound for 30 + wins this year. It’s unrealistic to see Evans as anything close to a superstar at this point and I think anyone who has seen Cousins run around on the court can just imagine how hard it would be to coach him. With the lockout looming, Petrie couldn’t afford to add the kind of veteran presence that the team needed, and i think this is another season of getting high draft pick. OKC had three years of high draft picks in a row before they started winning. The Kings have only had two.

I don’t think it’s the coaching; I just think we have unrealistic expectations. Let him teach, and let them learn I say.

by sdfd on Nov 28, 2010 12:55 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

What in PW ninety plus games have given you the impression he is a teacher of any sort? I think it’s that quality that he lacks, thus making him a poor fit for our squad. He is not a good enough coach to build a squad around either, or he wouldn’t have been in the bargain basement where we found him either.

To the question of if he had list the team, I think that is obvious. He had to single out players last year to assert his authority, and this year there is obvious discontent on the team.

by MichaelMack on Nov 28, 2010 1:37 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

You said

Let him teach. I will ask again, what has he done to make you think he is a good teacher? Or that he has a lot to teach?

by MichaelMack on Nov 28, 2010 3:02 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

PW has won 29 games out of 97 so far! I say fire his ass unless loosing doesn't bother you!

"I’d insult you, but the sad truth is that you wouldn’t understand and if I tried to explain it to you, your brain might implode from information overload."

by LagunaKing on Nov 28, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm just saying he hasn't had a chance

the roster has always been constantly changing, and he’s teaching a team of guys on their rookie contracts.

What replacement (that the Maloofs could afford) would do a better job? Did firing Theus midseason have any positive effects? Didn’t we learn from that?

Scapegoating =NaSolution.

by sdfd on Nov 28, 2010 3:20 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

He changed Donte Greene's game

maybe that wouldve happened regardless of PW’s presence but under westphal he’s playing within himself on offense and he’s been good on d. If he can get cousins to play good d and under control on offense within a year like he did with Donte, thats a success.

huh? wha?

by effin steve on Nov 28, 2010 10:55 PM PST up reply actions   3 recs

And he's got Donte to hit the boards

which I didn’t think was possible.

There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.

by ElRonToro on Nov 28, 2010 11:17 PM PST up reply actions  

All true

but 7 games is a small sample size. I hope Greene will continue to show this improvement, but right now it’s too early to call this a success.
Greene’s main problem last year was inconsistency, and he has yet to show that he has overcome that problem before we tout PW a good teacher.

Dunking Dutchman

by RikSmits on Nov 29, 2010 4:33 AM PST up reply actions  

What system?
PW needs time to implement his system.

Almost 100 games into his Kings tenure, I have yet to discern any sort of system. What I see resembles something more like a game of Pick Up Sticks.

"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."

by NewEraKings on Nov 28, 2010 2:37 PM PST up reply actions   3 recs

Agreed.

Westphal has been terrible by any definition.

I really don’t see any coaching occurring.

by Hoops Mike on Nov 29, 2010 10:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Firing a coach every time there is a losing streak, in my opinion, is no way to build a winning team

But apparently, it’s not the popular opinion of STR readers.

That’s all I have to say on this.

by sdfd on Nov 28, 2010 3:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Jumping in here...

I’ll jump in and say that I’m for keeping PW, at least till the end of this season.

by M. Thai on Nov 28, 2010 10:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Forgot to say "why".

I’m sick and tired of the carousel of coaches. I also believe that working with 14 different personalities and play styles takes much longer than 15 games to be accustomed to, much less decide on a proper system. Sure we’re losing, but at least there’s some semblance of a starting line-up. There’s still fumbling with substitutions, but I figure that will settle along the way. As for a game plan/system, I think PW will be implementing one soon, especially now that he knows who his started are.

by M. Thai on Nov 28, 2010 10:42 PM PST up reply actions  

You hit the nail on the head with two points

First, has Westphal lost the team. Second, losses are not the problem but you would like to see some progress and that would likely equate to a more fun team to watch. On the second point, the most disturbing part of this year has been the rotations and lack of any continuity. I can’t tell if anyone is getting any better or realizing potential because each game there is a different starting line-up and rotations, and so the games are not comparable and boring. I guess Westphal believes it is necessary to tinker, but I cannot imagine so much tinkering helps a young developing team. Roles need to be established so that players can strive to be the best at that role. For instance, make Omri your 6th man, to play with intensity on both ends of the floor and see if he can respond and better his defense. Sure, some games he will stink it up but the hope is that he would slowly become more consistent and thus confident. Confidence is a key in basketball.

I just don’t understand all the lineup changes. Shouldn’t this team simply be as follows:

Evans/Head/Beno – three guard with Beno off the bench
Greene/Casspi/Garcia – start Greene, play Casspi first off the bench and bring in Garcia when a veteran presence is needed and/or to relieve guards.
Landry/JT
Dalembert/Cousins

a 10 player rotatoin with least time going to Beno/Head/Garcia (play those based on matchups and who is doing well). Stop playing Jackson and Wright, they are not part of future.

At the very least, more established roles would let us know what we have and let us know what we need to do in the off-season. I would rather lose with the players of the future and with the same lineups and rotations to see if we are improving, then with new lineups and rotations every week.

I know I am not saying anything that has not been said before and I understand if a pattern emerges than a line up change may be necessary, but let the patters emerge. Getting back to your first point then, has all the lineup changes lost the team. If the way we are losing continues then I would have to say yes and it is time for elie to try. Though I have a hard time saying that because Westphal has shown that he can motivate and coach these guys.

Lastly, any Dish people know if the dispute with Comcast is coming to an end anytime soon.

by CK40 on Nov 28, 2010 12:57 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

loved it

Watched it before every game of the nlcs and world series

by Craunic on Nov 28, 2010 2:03 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

I'll totally do the lyrics if someone else will sing and do the video.

I’m a horrible singer and I’m not near Sac (so I couldn’t do a good vid), but I could probably whip up some decent lyrics. Of course, our version would be much more sarcastic and ironic than actually inspirational, but I suppose that’s really where we’re at right now.

"If you're going to lead the orchestra, you have to turn your back on the audience." -Geoff Petrie

by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 28, 2010 4:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Sign me up

I’ll sing it. Got plenty of practice at the karaoke bar.

by Craunic on Nov 28, 2010 4:45 PM PST up reply actions  

If I can get a good draft done soon, I'll get your email and send it to you.

Hopefully my aspirations won’t be derailed by, you know, life and stuff.

"If you're going to lead the orchestra, you have to turn your back on the audience." -Geoff Petrie

by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 28, 2010 4:47 PM PST up reply actions  

On second though, we need Exhibit G to do the lyrics

He’s the StR Song Master. Hell, he’s probably already been working on one.

"If you're going to lead the orchestra, you have to turn your back on the audience." -Geoff Petrie

by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 28, 2010 4:49 PM PST up reply actions  

*second thought

"If you're going to lead the orchestra, you have to turn your back on the audience." -Geoff Petrie

by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 28, 2010 4:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Sorry, I've been MIA with a stomach flu the last few days

I’ll spend some time on it and see what I can come up with.

Never forget, I'm an idiot.

Follow me on Twitter

by Exhibit G on Nov 29, 2010 6:44 AM PST up reply actions  

I freakin love that video

So funny. I also love the way they inserted old Journey footage into it.

Don’t Stop Believing is, hands down, the best sing-along song EVER (drunken or otherwise).

"Science was my most favorite subject, especially the Old Testament."

by Christina_J on Nov 28, 2010 5:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Otherwise??

I don’t even know what to think of the world anymore

"Cousins is the Blaster to Evans’ Master, the Hammer to Evans’ Sickle"- HP

by tomroadrunner on Nov 28, 2010 6:37 PM PST up reply actions  

I've had epic sober sing-alongs to that song!

As well as drunken. Either way, you can’t lose!

"Science was my most favorite subject, especially the Old Testament."

by Christina_J on Nov 28, 2010 10:05 PM PST up reply actions  

True

"Cousins is the Blaster to Evans’ Master, the Hammer to Evans’ Sickle"- HP

by tomroadrunner on Nov 28, 2010 10:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Also

I don’t think you bring in a new coach at this point. How many coaches are on our payroll right now? If we fire PW in favor of Elie, then I would be OK with that, but I don’t think going out and trying to find a new coach is the answer right now. Unless Brian ‘The Beard’ Wilson wants the job. In that case, give it to him.

by spragueito on Nov 28, 2010 1:29 PM PST reply actions  

Possible coach

Patrick Ewing?
Possibly a good mentor for DMC, someone who will have some respect because they´ve all seen him play, he has experience as an assistant and has played under some good coaches.
The question is whether he will leave Orlando to come here.

Dunking Dutchman

by RikSmits on Nov 28, 2010 1:30 PM PST reply actions   2 recs

Too tall

See above photo.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 28, 2010 3:21 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

I think Patrick Ewing would be a good choice

He’d be able to teach DMC and Thompson a few things

I hope you guys aren't trying to have me get a virus, thats f'd up - MarcusC

by slamson on Nov 28, 2010 7:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Ugh

Give me Hakeem. A week in the summer with Hakeem helped Dwight more than several years with Ewing. No thanks.

Never forget, I'm an idiot.

Follow me on Twitter

by Exhibit G on Nov 29, 2010 6:48 AM PST up reply actions  

I see your point

Although a personal trainer is different than a coach, I’d think.

How about Sam Mitchell? Former coach of the year at Toronto, fired when he started a season 8-9.

Dunking Dutchman

by RikSmits on Nov 29, 2010 7:54 AM PST up reply actions  

Decent call

We could probably do worse.

"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."

by NewEraKings on Nov 29, 2010 10:02 AM PST up reply actions  

First of all I don't think PW should be fired

but this team has talent. They have more than enough talent to atleast beat the other poor teams at home. They have enough talent to atleast compete at home. This team looks far worse than they did last year but this team looks far better on paper than they did last year.

Remember all the talk last year about “if we only had a defensive center”? Well now we have one & we’re WORSE. Remember when it was" I can’t wait until we get K-Mart back" Then we got him back & WE GOT WORSE. Then it Landry was going to be so great because we lacked a low post scorer. THEN WE GOT WORSE.

Could we use more talent? Sure every team not named the Lakers, Celtics, & Magic could use more talent. A coaches job is to get the best out of the players they have. Is this really the absolute best this team can play?

Now I say I don’t think PW should be fired because we have no one to replace him & no decent coaches are on the market. My choice was always Tom Thibideau but he is taken so I really have no answers right now.

I love beating dead horses.

by allbenji's on Nov 28, 2010 2:00 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

So what you're saying is we should do the opposite

If every instinct we have is wrong… then the opposite would have to correct.

Well Petrie, go out there and get a ball dominating guard/wing that can’t shoot!

Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.

by Aykis16 on Nov 28, 2010 5:36 PM PST up reply actions  

SAR and Truck

not chopped liver and no substitute for experience and Ewing can’t teach that.

by betweentheeyes on Nov 28, 2010 8:15 PM PST up reply actions  

You missed my whole point completely (not sure how)

My point was GP made all these improvements to the roster & things got worse. Imo because the coach hasn’t done a good enough job at making everything work.

I love beating dead horses.

by allbenji's on Nov 28, 2010 9:40 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Answer 1: I wouldn't fire PW right now.

What good would it do now? If we’re gonna ditch him, I’ll wait until after All-Star Break. If he does manage to make this team turn in promising performances (at this point, decent would be nice, but not enough to save his job), wait until the end of the season to make a decision on his future.

That brings us to Answer 2: I don’t see Westphal as the guy who can move us forward rapidly. We don’t have the talent pool (or draft luck) of OKC (Imagine if the Blazers had taken Durant at #1). Not just yet. So to attain a more sustainable / realistic level of success, we need someone who can create a tactical system that, in a way, forms the identity of Kings basketball moving forward. It will shape the way all player acquisition (through draft, trade or free agency) is judged, based on how they would fit in to a current system.

Answer 3: Unfortunately, no coaches (at least none that aren’t Popovich or Sloan — guys who have had the benefit of coaching continuity & job security) come to mind. Perhaps raiding colleges is the way to go. After all, most of our players are of college age, so all we’ll just need is to bus in hot coeds into Arco to really make it a full on college experience. That and maybe break ground on the StR school of journalism, sarcasm and belligerence next door.

This.

by elfboy_ on Nov 28, 2010 2:05 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

All-Star Break coaching change...

For those willing to give PW till the all-star break, consider that changing a coach mid-season isn’t beneficial to the next coach or the team. Sure you might see some rejuvenation in effort, but by then you’ll have lost the chance to make any player trades to accommodate the new coach’s system. The trade deadline is in February, same time as the All-Star break.

by M. Thai on Nov 28, 2010 10:45 PM PST up reply actions  

I would disagree with your premise. Talent.

I do get what you are saying that we have players that are not multi-faceted enough and tend to be one dimensional, but that is why you need a coach.

In my opinion there are two individuals on a team that can make everybody better . That is the coach and the PG (I will speak to the coaching issue here and not how players like Nash work.). It takes a good coach to play players to their strengths. Good coaches make even marginally talented players look like a genius because they understand their limits and play them squarely within that range of talent. They don’t ask them to do more or less than they know they are capable of and that increases the players confidence and success.

Paul Westphal has not shown a grasp of how to use these players. They don’t look talented because their talents are not being used to their best advantage. Any professional NBA level coach is supposed to know how to best use talent and that is the issue when it comes to replacing PW or not. Can he effectively run plays to his players’ strengths? I have not seen it. Instead we get some kind of half ass system that ensures floor spacing, but nothing else. No movement and a lacking offense.

This roster has talent and PW should be able to make it work. He isn’t doing that and if he gets fired it is because he himself is not talented enough to make his players successful. He isn’t setting them up to succeed. He plays low post players in the high post and other such moves that limits players because he doesn’t put them in situations they are good at. He sets them up to fail.

I completely disagree with you about talent. This team has talent and it is up the coach to get the most out of it. If he can’t do that then he needs to go.

I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...

by MustangMBS on Nov 28, 2010 2:34 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

I don't think its the right time for a coaching change

but I do agree with you that talent is not the core issue. Before the season started everyone was excited about how much more talent we had added to last years squad. I think that the team needs to stop pointing fingers, and just “start over.” They need to work from the ground up, practice the fundamentals, learn to work as a team. A coach is not going to be able to help them unless they can leave their ego’s at the door.

Keep Jason Thompson out of the damn fruit salad!

by prowseinthehouse on Nov 28, 2010 2:53 PM PST up reply actions  

I respect the take

Now, tell me who we have that represents upper echelon talent, or even standard NBA starting talent. I count Evans, and perhaps Dalembert, with Landry being a stretch.

I’m not saying that we don’t have guys that might develop into viable into NBA starters, but they are not there today. Simply, the team that has lost 10 of the last 11 lacks NBA starting caliber talent. I don’t say that to excuse Westphal. I say it as a statistical fact. Rank the player of your choice at their given position, and you tell me which guys would start more often than not for each of the other 31 NBA teams.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 28, 2010 3:27 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I would agree that the level of talent is not the sole issue

But I do believe it to be a core issue, and I say that based on comparing this roster to the other NBA rosters. Again, I am basing this on the current level of talent and productivity, not taking potential or upside into consideration.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 28, 2010 3:47 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

At some point it is all just excuses to me

PW looks like he is flailing around in search for some kind of solution. Like he doesn’t know what he is doing. How is playing JT at small forward the answer? How is playing Landry up at the top of the three point, distributing the ball, and not getting him the ball in the paint the answer?

How was it all Spencer’s fault last year? We got Dalembert along with a lot of other frontcourt talent, but that wasn’t enough? What now? I mean is it just one excuse after another or is it the inability of this coach to use what talent he does have?

He has a mix of talent both defensively and offensively. Most teams are like this and they put together players so that they have enough or the right mix of both on the floor. They emphasize team defense and get some cohesiveness going from the players. That seems to be beyond PW.

Not one team has a complete roster of upper echelon players or even a majority. To say that there isn’t truly enough NBA caliber players on the team is just another cop out to me. There are injuries all the time and NBA starters are often sitting. Marginal talent is still talent and can be used within its narrow band. If they are good at the rim then get them the ball at the rim. If they can only spot up shoot then get them the ball on the three point line. That is just a fact of coaching and the way teams succeed.

It was just a couple of years ago that the Houston Rockets almost took out the L@kers in the Playoffs without Ming or McGrady. There are other examples similar to that. Good coaches know the strengths of their players and what they can ask them to do.

I do get what you are saying and there is merit to it. I am not oblivious to your point, BUT he took on this job with an even more limited roster. So, he knew what he was getting into. He asked for a more defensive Center. He got it, Dalembert. He wanted more scoring in the low post. He got it, Landry.

Enough excuses for PW.

I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...

by MustangMBS on Nov 28, 2010 6:33 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I understand what you're saying

And this team is underperforming, in my opinion. This is not meant to be an excuse or a copout for Westphal – he is not succeeding. That does not change the fact that at least 90% of the coaches that have coached in the NBA over the past five years would not significantly turn this team around.

The fact that this team does not have legitimate starting talent is not an excuse – it is a fact. Now, the youngsters may grown into viable NBA starters. But with the exception of Evans, they are not really there today.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 28, 2010 6:39 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Yes they are seriously under performing.

I leave this at PW’s door. He is calling the shots, plays, and putting out the players on the floor. I also agree that we have players who are not 100% there yet, but as I have said I see this as a marginal excuse.

I acknowledge that a lot of our talent is still developing, but some of it came pretty close to ready. Casspi is close and from what I saw of DMC he should be close as well. Both can be well-rounded and more complete players similar to Evans. Both have a ways to go and they are not there today, but aren’t that far off either

You should know what you are going to get from this roster. Or you should know if you are their coach.

Get Casspi/Greene/Cisco/Head the ball for an open look at the three point line.

Get Evans/Landry/Cousins the ball around the rim without 3 dudes there already.

Get Beno the ball and an open look at the top of the key.

Get Sammy a lob at the rim.

Maybe not a lot of coaches would be able to turn this around… But how many would be so erratic? That is what we get from PW. He is erratic. Erratic rotations and line-ups. How many coaches out there would play JT at 3?

I understand that your intent was to address the lack of talent, but it really is hard to evaluate just how good the talent is we have when it is being used so poorly. I think we are more talented than we seem and it seemed like you agree with that. Cause otherwise we would not be underperforming…

I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...

by MustangMBS on Nov 28, 2010 7:40 PM PST up reply actions   4 recs

"I think we are more talented than we seem and it seemed like you agree with that."

Agreed 100% and well stated. This is my point of contention as it pertains to Westphal – where is the growth?

So let’s go your way and blame most of this on Westphal. What are your answers to questions 1, 2 and 3?

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 28, 2010 7:50 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

OK

1a) The way I see it is you have to give PW a chance to turn it around. You give him until the All-Star break, but he needs to show some kind of serious improvement. That improvement can be the young ones improving and this squad jelling. It can just be them being competitive. If he doesn’t show SOMETHING then he should be gone.

1b) You realize that he doesn’t have it by the All-Star break, but want continuity and that high draft pick. GP invests in a veteran PG. Then you keep him until the end of the year.

2) Depends on the way the team is going.

3) Jeff Van Gundy would be my top choice. Rick Pitino might be interesting to consider.

I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...

by MustangMBS on Nov 28, 2010 8:06 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Thanks!

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 28, 2010 8:16 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

rec'd to Mustang and Section

you are both master debaters. Entertaining read.

by betweentheeyes on Nov 28, 2010 8:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks!

This is the reason I keep coming back. Being able to have this kind of back and forth with somebody as sharp as Section. Good stuff!

I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...

by MustangMBS on Nov 28, 2010 9:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Remarkably well put, and I agree completely.

by MichaelMack on Nov 28, 2010 10:50 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Remarkably well put, and I agree completely.

by MichaelMack on Nov 28, 2010 10:54 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Whose fault is it that we lack talent?

Or are just too early in the rebuild cycle to care?

Like I said a while back, it seems we have yet to get to the full rebuild mode. We seem to want to have our cake and eat it to, and not get too bad in the process. From a marketing standpoint, I understand that completely. From a teambuilding standpoint, I’m not too sure.

Re: Westphal, it’s a little too early. I’d give him another 10 games and evaluate where the team is at that point, then go with Elie if a change is needed.

"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."

by NewEraKings on Nov 28, 2010 8:04 PM PST up reply actions  

What we lack is talent fulfilled

And I agree with your take – it’s still too early in the rebuild process to judge the young talent – the jury is still out on most of our youngsters.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 28, 2010 8:15 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree with you except for one element.

I’m not so sure that some of the other players don’t start for other teams if they were being developed. I don’t see any noticeable growth under Westphal. If he is not developing young guys – THAT is reason enough to can him on this team. His egregious rotations, bench coaching, and stylistic “cluelessness” are just icing on the cake.

by Hoops Mike on Nov 29, 2010 10:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Name 5 teams with less talent than the Kings.

I’m not talking about potential. I mean the playing ability of the current roster of players. I honestly can’t think of one that wouldn’t be more than a toss up.

by Charlieb on Nov 28, 2010 3:28 PM PST up reply actions  

This one is closer than you think -

McGee has probably been better than Dalembert this season.

Blatche may have been a tad better than Landry so far this season.

I think that both Donté and Omri have been better than Thornton.

Wall and Arenas have been better than any backcourt combination that the Kings have thrown out there.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 28, 2010 5:47 PM PST up reply actions  

A system

Westphal has never had one. True. But he hasn’t had a consistent lineup either. Last year we had a pair of significant injuries, trades and signings. This year we started opening night with 2 players who we never had before in the starting lineup. Casspi, greene, udrih, evans, garcia, landry and JT were the returning players. Dalembert missed a bunch of camp and games due to injury. Cousins is a rookie. Head was new to the system. etc. that is a lot of integration. and that takes time.
We can talk about how it isn’t youth that is hurting us, and then point to Chicago and say, “look, they are young too”. But that young team has been playing together for a couple of years and we have been together a couple of months. Team play takes time. Even the three headed ego machine in Miami is having the same issues that we have. and that team is certainly not lacking in talent for the most part.

by Craunic on Nov 28, 2010 4:14 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

I will add that it is hard to develop chemistry with horrid rotations - however.

If the dude can’t settle on roles after 100 games, there is really no argument to be had for building cohesion – he doesn’t know how.

by Hoops Mike on Nov 29, 2010 10:30 AM PST up reply actions  

I rec...

It’s a combination of coaching philosophy/policy and current talent…
I’m still being patient and optimistic…I don’t think PW should be fired yet. I still like the current starting lineup, but I’m not against a consistent JT having a chance to take Carl’s starting job.

by getPGwithbounce on Nov 28, 2010 4:22 PM PST reply actions  

Agreed and I'm

not against keeping Cisco in there for shooting and defense.

by chenp22 on Nov 29, 2010 2:17 AM PST up reply actions  

It's not time to fire Westphal

Primarily because there’s nobody better to replace him AND this team is clearly not playoff caliber at this point, so let’s spend the rest of the season evaluating him – just as we are for much of the roster.

I don’t have high hopes for PW at this point because…well, because the other day I asked myself “can you think of anything he’s done well in his tenure with the Kings”. And there was nothing that really stood out other than “he’s not Kenny Natt”.

Sorry, but that isn’t going to be enough come the end of the year.

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~ Rogers Hornsby

by otis29 on Nov 28, 2010 4:32 PM PST reply actions  

Should PW be fired? Probably not. Will he be fired before the end of this season?

I think probably not, unless, as has been mentioned several times, he “loses the team”. So, what exactly would “losing the team” look like? Maybe worst case, some of the key guys basically go into “open mutiny” mode, not listening to the coach one bit during games, totally blowing off practice, openly complaining about the coaches to the media and/or team management, etc. There could be less severe versions of that, but in any case, I think it’d be pretty hard for the coach to recover from something like that in the middle of the season, considering the relative lack of someone in the locker room keeping the young guys in line.

Wait, why dance around it, it’s all about Tyreke, really. ‘Reke is the one guy that could sink Westphal and/or sink this team. Boogie has the same giant billboards as ’Reke, but Cuz really hasn’t done crap on the court, yet. After last season and this past offseason, would anyone be shocked if Evans feels like this is already his team, not Westphal’s, not even Petrie’s? If ‘Reke decides he’s tired of listening to Coach Westphal, who in that locker room is going to talk some perspective into him? Dalembert? I’m sure all the guys have some level of respect for Dally, but he’s not exactly the pinnacle of NBA gravitas.

What could Westphal do to get ‘Reke in line? Bench him? That would be a much bigger deal than benching Spencer last year. I think it’s safe to say that Tyreke Evans has a much more durable ego than Spencer Hawes, with good reason. I can’t see ‘Reke agreeing to a feel-good public chest-bumpin’ reconciliation a few days later. If PW tried to punish Tyreke into learning his role, Mr. Evans would have quite enough ammo to turn it into quite a long and bloody war. I don’t imagine it would be very pretty.

Maybe someone in ’Reke’s posse would be able to talk some sense into him, and they could work-through this rough patch without any permanent damage. That would probably be our only hope. Otherwise, what choice would Petrie have but to appease the young savior? It sucks, but it’s probably the reality.

I’m not saying that things are that bad between ‘Reke and the coach right now. But I don’t think they’re great, and I’m not sure if Westphal can start to turn things around quickly enough. Honestly, probably the best thing that could happen right now would be for the team doctors to tell the coaches that Evans’ feet need some rest. Take ’Reke out of the equation for a few games, let PW try to win a couple (or, at least have the guys go a whole game without looking terrible), and maybe the pressure would be released just a bit.

"If you're going to lead the orchestra, you have to turn your back on the audience." -Geoff Petrie

by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 28, 2010 5:40 PM PST reply actions  

As for why I don't think PW's seat is all that hot yet

I imagine that the directive he was given for this season was simply to teach the young kids how to play basketball, and wins are secondary. To show him they meant it, the team picked up his option for next season before this one even began. So, with stuff like “Westphal should’ve played so-and-so in the 4th quarter” or “Why did he leave ’Reke/Cuz in with 5 fouls?”, I imagine Petrie and company give the coach a lot of slack. I don’t think Coach Westphal will get fired for letting any particular group of guys try to play through whatever mistakes and rough patches they’re having, because the assumption would be that he’s making the guys watch film the next day and telling them exactly what they need to do in order to play better (actually, PW has said as much, many times).

The ugly losses have sucked. But I don’t believe that Coach Westphal will get fired for having a really bad team, or for really bad losses, or even for not getting the guys to play as good as they could be. The only way he’ll get fired is if it becomes apparent that he’s no longer able to teach the guys anything, whether they stop listening or he can’t figure out a way for them to hear what he’s saying. If the bosses feel like the players on this team that may have a future on this squad (which at this point, really, is almost everyone) will not be better players at the end of this season if they continue with Westphal as their coach, then they may have to let Westphal go. Outside of that, I think he gets the rest of this year, gets a largely new roster for next season, and gets half of that season to show that he can win with them.

"If you're going to lead the orchestra, you have to turn your back on the audience." -Geoff Petrie

by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 28, 2010 6:48 PM PST up reply actions  

The problem I have with this statement
wins are secondary

is that the Kings organization went completely out of their way to increase expectations for this season with the Here we Rise campaign. Like they were expecting big-time or at least some improvement.

Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.

by Aykis16 on Nov 29, 2010 10:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Kind of unrelated sidenote

but was out of town watching the Kings/Clips game on TNT when I noticed that in front of Staples they had a picture of Griffin with “Rise.” along the side of it, just like the Cousins pic in front of Arco. Is this a general NBA marketing thing, the whole “Rise with Us” thing?

I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.

by wallywagon11 on Nov 29, 2010 1:36 PM PST up reply actions  

No to a coaching change

i say we need to see how well PW does for the whole season. ist still early into the season even though its 20% into it but the only thing is the different starting 5 needs to be consistent. with young players, people/kids, consistency is key and setting well defined boundaries. They need to know the roles they play and with consistent feedback without blaming each other but sticking up for one another, need a good positive/negative feedback system with consistency in the lineup.

by J-Son on Nov 28, 2010 5:47 PM PST reply actions  

Do you replace/retain Westphal now, and if so, why?

No. The reason is simple: This team needs another year. You want to can PW and get a better coach this offseason, than fine. Not now. It sends a bad message to the players, and quite honestly, it only goes to show that this franchise is making snap judgments rather than sound well thought out decisions.

What type of coach do you bring in to replace him?

Doesn’t matter. My criteria for a good coach is one that is effective, and you can’t exactly know that unless you’re MIss Cleo.

Do any particular coaches spring to mind, and if so, who?

This is my biggest problem. I don’t have anyone in mind, and Paul Westphal seems more & more like a caretaker right now than a coach who could be here longer than New Years Day. Still, I don’t think fans will be happy with PW if the team ends up 500 after 82 games. There are people with an ax to grind and if there are certain things that don’t happen to a particular individual’s specfications, than a coach has failed. This happened to Rick Adelman who will likely remain the franchises winningest head coach unless another head man gets the benefit of the Tyreke Evans era for a long time. (Or something like that.)

I would like to say that I think Jeff Van Gundy is a head coach that would get the Kings to a high level, but I don’t think he is. I think JVG is a very overrated and hyped coach due to his Pat Riley and Knicks affiliation. Then again, I could be wrong.

I don’t want Don Nelson, and I don’t want Kenny Natt. What I want more than anything is to see what happens over the course of the season rather than having a massive over-reaction to every little detail of every single minute of every single game every other day. But I doubt that will happen so I should go live in my glass house.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 28, 2010 6:27 PM PST reply actions  

Don Nelson could be entertaining

You wouldn’t have to worry about Antoine Wright seeing the floor again. And I don’t think you’d see Tyreke walking the ball up the court, either.

"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."

by NewEraKings on Nov 28, 2010 8:13 PM PST up reply actions  

That's not even funny when you're kidding.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 29, 2010 8:19 AM PST up reply actions  

NO you wouldn't. You would hate every moment of his tenure...

…but you would come back. I said the same thing after the Kings traded Ron Artest.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 29, 2010 10:53 AM PST up reply actions  

traded for^

I rejoiced after Artest was traded. I was giggling all day.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 29, 2010 10:53 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Congratulations

You were rewarded with 42 wins in two seasons and a team on a pace for its third straight season with 25 or fewer wins. I bet that has you giggling every day as well.

"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."

by NewEraKings on Nov 29, 2010 12:51 PM PST up reply actions  

I was giddy too

I figured you would disappear since you were an Artest fan and not really a Kings fan.

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~ Rogers Hornsby

by otis29 on Nov 29, 2010 12:53 PM PST up reply actions  

If I disappeared

You’d have nothing to live for, or at least even less than you do now.

"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."

by NewEraKings on Nov 29, 2010 1:01 PM PST up reply actions  

That's a fair point

Public service is my life!

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~ Rogers Hornsby

by otis29 on Nov 29, 2010 1:04 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

And for those that were not 13 years old in 1973 -

The Sport Magazine cover shown at the top of this post is (from left and standing) Bill Russell, Dick Motta and Wilt Chamberlain, and (from left and sitting) Spencer Haywood, Bob Love, and I’m guessing Caldwell Jones. Chamberlain was actually hired to be a player/coach for the San Diego Conquistadors, but the Lakers sued to block him him from playing, and he was ultimately reduced to coaching for this one and only season.

Sactown Royalty – your home for pointless NBA/ABA archeological digs.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 28, 2010 7:05 PM PST reply actions   2 recs

I see your trivia and raise you one

Yes, that is Caldwell Jones in his rookie year. Also on San Diego was Travis Grant aka the Machine aka Travis Two Point Grant from Kentucky State University, NAIA champs. He averaged an amazing 50 ppg his senior year at Kentucky State (he scored 4,045 points that season for the Thorobreds), He was the last player taken in the 1st round of the 1972 NBA Draft by that team in Los Angeles – just after a guy from UMass who operated like a surgeon: Julius Erving. The 10th guy picked in 1972 by the Boston Celtics is the featured pinata on this thread.

That is less than 6 degrees of separaton if you ask me.

by betweentheeyes on Nov 28, 2010 9:20 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Thanks

I was definitely a good 15 years from being born in 1973. lol.

"Science was my most favorite subject, especially the Old Testament."

by Christina_J on Nov 28, 2010 10:08 PM PST up reply actions  

I am mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore (Network 1976)

Let’s suppose that Tyreke shows he is disappointed with all of the losing. He mouths (mumbles) his disapproval to the media. That translates into a Mark Stein ESPN Dime sideline story. Westphal reacts and has a sit down with the 21 year old Kings star. That gets carried by James Jones and shows up on the ESPN True Hoop daily and both stories are repeated on TNT or during a Kings telecast by opposing play by play. The Maloofs follow that up with a comment to the Bee editorialist. Petrie stares. And on, and on and on.

This team is losing. Shouldn’t everyone – players, coaches, owners, and maybe even fans – get a bit, uh ticked? Is it anything more than fuel for the infitnite fire?

Losing provides the kindling and the embers are lit. Will this be heat, smoke, flames (fanned by fans), bonfire, explosion ? I am not saying extinguish the fire, but with 15 games into an 82 game season at this pace burn out is inevitable.

The situation is not dire. The Kings end up with the 5th worse record this season. Or the 8th. or the 11th. Did they get better or worse? I don’t believe anyone can address that at this point. The blame game does not provide answers.

by betweentheeyes on Nov 28, 2010 9:10 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

I don't ditch Westphal

At least not until, like Section said, he loses the team. If that happens there’s no point in keeping him around.

As far as a replacement goes… I have to say I kind of like Erik Spoelstra. He doesn’t fit with the Heat, right now. Spoelstra will be part of the next generation of NBA coaches, which would be great on a young and developing team, but doesn’t quite work with a team that should be contending. He hasn’t been around long enough to learn to deal with the massive egos of guys like Lebron and Wade. That’ll be less of a problem with a young team.

I also wouldn’t mind Lawrence Frank. Or rolling the dice on the Italian guy in Russia… Ettore Messina?

"What the fuck did I do?" - McNulty

by vfettke on Nov 28, 2010 9:11 PM PST reply actions  

I believe Messina got a pretty big contract to coach in Europe and likely won't be coming over here at all

Why come to the USA for a chance to coach a poor team in a different system than coach a good team in Europe for the same money and still be regarded as great? As much as I liked Messina (I think I was one of the guys touting him during our last coaching search), I don’t think he’d come over.

Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.

by Aykis16 on Nov 29, 2010 10:30 AM PST up reply actions  

A guy can dream, can't he?

But I do think Spoelstra could be a Scotty Brooks type of coach for this team

"What the fuck did I do?" - McNulty

by vfettke on Nov 29, 2010 11:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Spoelstra?

Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.

by Aykis16 on Nov 29, 2010 1:28 PM PST up reply actions  

i think theres definitely going to be a pause regarding the future of Westphal

we’ve all agreeed that as of now the time to fire him is when he loses the team. and record definitely doesnt matter because we arent really competing for anything important this year. so basically westphal is here for the developement of the young guys. if he can do that without losing the team then he stays on. but if we finish with the worst record and Westphal stays on for 11-12…he better hope for the Lottery Odds

by mactown96kings on Nov 28, 2010 9:43 PM PST reply actions  

This is wrong
and record definitely doesnt matter because we arent really competing for anything important this year.

Wins are the measuring stick of how a team progresses. They matter.

Nobody expects this team to make the playoffs, but we want to see improvement. More wins is an important way to measure that.

<a href=“http:// ”http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2010/10/26/1776936/realistic-expectations-for-a-25-win-team" target="_blank">http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2010/10/26/1776936/realistic-expectations-for-a-25-win-team" >I wrote a post previously about how teams with a similar record to the Kings last season averaged an improvement of 11 1/2 wins in the following season. Probably more importantly, only three teams out of 18 had fewer wins in the following season.

Guess what happened to their coaches?

I think another sub-plot of that piece was whether the Kings did enough in the offseason to match those previous teams and improve in the win column. So far it’s looking like more or less standing pat at the shooting guard and small forward positions isn’t going to translate into an improving team.

More important, though, is the play of Tyreke. As he goes, so goes the team to a large degree.

"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."

by NewEraKings on Nov 28, 2010 10:45 PM PST reply actions  

Here's the link

to the mentioned article.

"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."

by NewEraKings on Nov 28, 2010 10:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually
Probably more importantly, only three teams out of 18 had fewer wins in the following season.

Guess what happened to their coaches?

Nothing happened to the coaches that season, and two are still on the job.

The 2004-05 Trailblazers won 27 games and fired Maurice Cheeks towards the end of the season. Kevin Pritchard mopped up that season, and Nate McMillan became the coach the following season. The Blazers went 21-61, but have improved from there, and McMillan is still running the show.

The 2007-08 Clippers won 23 games under Mike Dunleavy and followed up with only 19 wins the next season. Dunleavy was finally fired with the team having a 21-28 record last season.

The 2008-09 Twolves won 24 games with Randy Wittman and Kevin McHale splitting the job. Kurt Rambis got the job the following season and the Wolves won only 15 games. Rambis is still the coach.

So it’s more of a timing thing, and maybe Westphal has a longer rope than many are suggesting.

"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."

by NewEraKings on Nov 29, 2010 1:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Hubie Brown

I think Hubie Brown would be a good coach. He could school the youngin’s on the basics of basketball, dating back to shooting at the peach basket without the reliance on a backboard. He and Coach Carril can talk about the olden days and get the team to bond together through aversion from hearing another one of the duo’s stories.

On a serious note, Hubie Brown did a decent job with the Grizzlies when they moved to Memphis with a young team. On the other hand, I would rather see PW coach the team till the end of the season. But I also am curious at the possibilities of Hubie Brown coaching the Kings.

by M. Thai on Nov 28, 2010 10:58 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

If I remember,

that Grizzlies team had one of the deepest rotations in the league. It played about 10 men rotation minutes on a regular basis and got quite competitive by doing things like pressuring the ball with its players knowing that they’d be sitting to rest pretty soon. Whether it would be good or bad, Hubie would probably do the same thing with our current roster, playing more players shorter minutes on a regular basis.

I wonder if he’d be up to the rigors of a head coach’s schedule, though. We all love Coachie, but he wouldn’t have the energy to be a head coach at this point, and I wonder if the same might be the case for Hubie.

by twasserm on Nov 29, 2010 8:26 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't think the Kings have the kind of team that could repeat what the Grizzlies did either.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 29, 2010 8:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Can we stop mentioning Patrick Ewing?

Great players rarely make great coaches

"What the fuck did I do?" - McNulty

by vfettke on Nov 29, 2010 1:33 AM PST reply actions  

I am sure it is on some google search but off the top of your head, who is the best Head Coach who was also an All-Star?

non All-Star status would throw a bunch of guys in there: Riley, Jackson, Nelson, KC Jones, and Adelman to name a few off the top of my head.
From the same spot (the top of my head) on the All-Star side: Lenny Wilkins, Bill Russell (as a Player Coach only) Larry Brown and Jerrry Sloan hit me first.
Nothing but skin left – no more off the top from me.
What say you?

by betweentheeyes on Nov 29, 2010 8:56 AM PST up reply actions  

What is Van Gundy's history of working with young, raw, losing teams?

Van Gundy is the guy that you consider hiring when you get to the other side of this mess, but I don’t think that he is the guy (or wants to be the guy) that gets you through the mess. So, if you fire Westphal, you probably need a transitional guy before you get to Van Gundy. If that is the case, does it make sense to fire Westphal, knowing that you are ultimately going to replace his replacement within a year?

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 29, 2010 9:36 AM PST up reply actions  

This is where Elie comes in

And maybe you get surprised and you don’t end up needing to bring in the coach with the resume.

I like that Elie has been a player on championship teams and now has a track record as an assistant. Characteristics shared by guys like Phil Jackson and Pat Riley.

"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."

by NewEraKings on Nov 29, 2010 10:09 AM PST up reply actions  

So why isn't Kurt Rambis a winner?

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 29, 2010 10:12 AM PST up reply actions  

And how has Elie's skills manifested themselves to make this current Kings team better?

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~ Rogers Hornsby

by otis29 on Nov 29, 2010 10:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Especially when Elie is currently part of PW's staff.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 29, 2010 10:53 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't know

But when Doug Collins got fired from the Bulls, they turned to Jackson, one of his assistants, so I am sure the same questions were asked then.

Elie isn’t the guy establishing the starting lineups, making the player changes, etc.

Just like in real life, good people work for crappy companies and for crappy bosses.

"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."

by NewEraKings on Nov 29, 2010 12:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Wow, I wonder why that's an apples to oranges comparison?

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~ Rogers Hornsby

by otis29 on Nov 29, 2010 12:50 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not saying Mario Elie is Phil Jackson

But we know Paul Westphal is also not Phil Jackson.

With a midseason change, an assistant or someone with the organization is usually the choice. Then you revisit it at the end of the season.

You get a look at another guy, and maybe it turns out to be a good move.

Probably a bigger problem is the lack of financial wherewithal to make this a competitive franchise. So you end up with cheap coaches and cheap players and a sucky team. Westphal is not a great coach, but he’s also in a less than ideal situation.

"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."

by NewEraKings on Nov 29, 2010 12:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree! Also OKC has a former assistant coach.

Lawrence Frank did pretty well after he took over the team from Byron Scott in 2004. Pat Riley was a mid season replacement for the Westhead on the 1982 Lakers team. Lenny Wilkens took over the Seattle Supersonics in 1977 mid-season and he had successful season. Just a few examples…

"I’d insult you, but the sad truth is that you wouldn’t understand and if I tried to explain it to you, your brain might implode from information overload."

by LagunaKing on Nov 29, 2010 7:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Kenny Natt was a replacement for Reggie Theus...

Oops – scratch that.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 29, 2010 8:03 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Look at his roster and ask again with a straight face.

"Not new here and there is a core that believes they have the only opinion that matters, and they feel that their opinions are the only correct ones. ... Go against the grain and have an opinion different than the rest of the good ole boy club and they come out swinging trying to dismantle you and your opinions… and not in a mature debate fashion either, like elementary school."

by NewEraKings on Nov 29, 2010 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Okay. I asked it with a straight face.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 29, 2010 1:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Case closed, indeed, cowboyron.

"If you're going to lead the orchestra, you have to turn your back on the audience." -Geoff Petrie

by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 29, 2010 9:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Fire Westphal TODAY.

He has done precisely nothing to warrant his position.

I do have a name.

Mike Fratello.

Fratello is very similar to Adelman in that he is a guy with a system, he gets the best out of his players, he adapts to his talent, and his is mysteriously absent from discussions about great coaches. He has coached uptempo at Atlanta (GREAT team – cursed by being in loaded Eastern Conference), and coached slowdown (and GREAT defense) at Cleveland. In short – he adapts to his talent, a characteristic we desperately need.

The guy has succeeded at all three NBA locations. His record of doing so speaks for itself. Atlanta, Cleveland, Memphis.

by Hoops Mike on Nov 29, 2010 10:45 AM PST reply actions  

My comment regarding Fratello mirrors my earlier comment regarding JVG -
Van Gundy is the guy that you consider hiring when you get to the other side of this mess, but I don’t think that he is the guy (or wants to be the guy) that gets you through the mess. So, if you fire Westphal, you probably need a transitional guy before you get to Van Gundy. If that is the case, does it make sense to fire Westphal, knowing that you are ultimately going to replace his replacement within a year?

Don’t get me wrong – the idea of Fratello is intriguing. I just don’t know that it’s intriguing to him at this point in time.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 29, 2010 11:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Maybe. A totally reasonable take.

I think IF you could get a Van Gundy or Fratello now, you go ahead and do it, but if you can’t get a good known commodity, then you can go with Westphal through the end of the season. I’m cool with that line of reasoning.

by Hoops Mike on Nov 29, 2010 2:18 PM PST reply actions  

Of course,

I figured that Doug Collins would never come back to coach a rebuilding team, either, so I guess one never knows.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 29, 2010 2:51 PM PST up reply actions  

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