Offense vs Defense
by Craunic on Nov 28, 2010 4:02 PM PST
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PrintThe age old conundrum. Defense vs offense. Celtics Vs Suns. Dallas Vs San Antonio. What is the answer?
Balance is what the Sacramento Kings appear to be lacking at this point.
Current Starting LIneup - Defense. Head, Evans, Greene, Landry, Dalembert
Starting Lineup - Offense. Udrih, Evans, Casspi, Landry, Cousins
Starting Lineup - Win. Udrih, Evans, Casspi, Landry, Cousins. (Raptors 4th quarter comeback group)
Starting LIneup - Win. Udrih, Head, Greene, Landry, Cousins. (Season opener victory)
Starting LIneup- Win. Head, Evans, Casspi, Landry, Dalembert. (The Free Donte Game)
Starting Lineup - Win. Udrih, Evans, Casspi, Landry, Cousins. (Cleveland Win)
A lot of hay is being made about who should start and the "success" of our defense first squad. And while opponents aren't scoring as much, neither are we.
If we examine the wins and their corresponding starting lineups a few patterns emerge. First, only one player started in all of our wins, Top Hat himself Carl Landry. Four other players started in 3 of the 4 wins. Udrih, Evans, Casspi, and Big Cuz. The defense first theory sounds good. But the data says otherwise. Our most successful lineup to date is the Offensive line.
Although not to say it is fool proof either. Being as that starting lineup lost a bunch of games too. Faults in the offensive line are pretty easy to find. Udrih plays what I call Ole defense. Challenge him and he will just let you by with a flourish of his cape. Ole. Casspi and Evans, when not focused, fall into token defensive stance and don't provide much disincentive on the perimeter. Landry is by no means a marvelous defender but is tough and will at least put himself against a player. Cousins is no Dalembert when it comes to team D or blocks, but he has proven he can at least contain his man into not having a career night.
The Defense lineup has its faults as well, mainly, offense. Head is inconsistent, unsure, unpredictable, and unreliable as far as an offensive threat. When it comes to young Donte, he has effort and energy, and what appears to be the attention span of a gypsy moth and the decision making ability of a turnip at times. Dalembert is just a tremendous hole on offense. Nobody is happy when he takes a shot outside of 2 ft from the rim. His post game is rudimentary at best. So in this configuration you have two guys who you don't have to guard, Head and Dalembert. Therefore leaving their men to sag into the lane, clogging it against 'Reke and Landry.
My solution is a mix and match lineup if you were. If you are going to stick Dalembert in at center then you go with the offensive threats around him. Evans, Udrih, Casspi, and Landry are your other starters. Udrih and Casspi are both threats from 3pt land. Landry is dangerous to 18 ft. Tyreke can hit the occasional jumper to keep his defender from sagging too far off. Your defensive hole in Udrih is negated by our fabulous Haitian goalie. Or the other side of that coin is have your starting 5 be Head, Evans, Greene, Landry (or JT), and Cousins. Head, Evans, and Greene can almost all cover 2 or more positions and stay in front of their man. If the guards are kept from penetrating regularly than we don't need a goalie to protect the rim from the guards. Landry and Cousins set up shop on opposite blocks and work from their with Head, Evans, and Greene, cutting, slashing, screening, and setting up for the 3 when the double comes to our bruising scoring bigs.
My other possible solution is a tad strange. A lot has been made about consistency of rotations. About how are team is full of good but absent of great. About how all these changes to the starting lineup are killing chemistry. About how hard of a time we as well as the Kings coaching staff are having trouble getting down to an 8 or 9 man rotation. Fine. Play to our strength in numbers. Treat it almost like football. Start with the original defense lineup. Play 8-10 minutes. Switch out the entire team for our second unit, which in this scenario would consist of Udrih, Garcia, Casspi, JT, and Cousins. Run that unit until about 8 minutes left in the half, then switch back. Now if either of those units is having a large amount of success then just let that whole unit continue. Practice becomes these two separate teams learning each other, how they play, how they rotate, where they want the ball passed to them, etc. Chemistry builds.
Either that or we lock Udrih, Evans, Landry, and Cousins in a room and make them watch old Utah Jazz footage of Stockton and Malone running the pick and roll, for 3 weeks straight and see if they can finally get that right.
But thats just my opinion. I could be wrong.
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
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Excellent fanpost Craunic. You're 2-2 which is good for a newbie (assuming you're one or at the very least an older reader with a new name--I'm hoping the former).
I like your point that the team is offensively geared, and plays better more competitive games when the offense is going in a wise direction. I think the big problem this team has it that it’s become a grim team trying to play a style it doesn’t have any clue how to play. This team isn’t suited to play knock ‘em defensive style of play and expecting that is just flat out pissy because these guys aren’t a championship team.
treat it almost like football. Start with the original defense lineup. Play 8-10 minutes. Switch out the entire team for our second unit, which in this scenario would consist of Udrih, Garcia, Casspi, JT, and Cousins. Run that unit until about 8 minutes left in the half, then switch back.
Hubie Brown did this with the Grizzlies when they first made the playoffs with Pau Gasol, James Posey and that team about 5-6 years ago. Eventually though, the players were angry because they couldn’t get more minutes. Having depth was fine, but most of the guys wanted more minutes and the Grizzlies moved some of the guys out.
Either way, lotta conundrums with this team. And this isn’t likely to change anytime soon.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Thanks
I didn’t know Hubie had tried this. (You think Hubie wants to come back to coaching?)
And I am truly a newbie. Just finally decided to suck it up and put my opinions out on the internets for others to see. Plus it seems to be helping my maniacal ranting at my coworkers about the team.
Should jjham have changed his site name to the purple conundrum?
Nah. I like the Purple Panjadrum as a name myself.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Its more like a series of tubes
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 29, 2010 4:38 PM PST up reply actions
Fantastic post.
And even if this is kind of an odd suggestion, I really like it:
Start with the original defense lineup. Play 8-10 minutes. Switch out the entire team for our second unit, which in this scenario would consist of Udrih, Garcia, Casspi, JT, and Cousins. Run that unit until about 8 minutes left in the half, then switch back. Now if either of those units is having a large amount of success then just let that whole unit continue. Practice becomes these two separate teams learning each other, how they play, how they rotate, where they want the ball passed to them, etc. Chemistry builds.
I think it might actually work, although if the injury bug strikes, we might have problems integrating a replacement player.
In these times, you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning.
~Carl Sandburg
We basically did the 2nd unit thing against the Knicks
Didn’t work out too well, as we gave up a big 1st quarter lead in about five minutes. The prbolem, as I see it, is that the backcourt is not nearly talented enough to not have Evans on the floor (and when Evans is not playing well, they’re 100% screwed).
Very nice post, by Craunic.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
a 10-man rotation
on a team that really sucks, sucks.
We need to play our best players big minutes. Even if the top 6 are only marginally better than the rest…
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Nov 28, 2010 10:51 PM PST up reply actions
name them.
your best players are going to be different than other peoples best players. Lets say you think dalembert is the best center. now you play him 36 minutes a night. your up and coming center gets very little development time.
Whats is better, offense or defense. Omri or Donte. Dally or big cuz. head or beno. JT or Landry
by Craunic on Nov 28, 2010 11:33 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That's for the coach to decide.
I’m not there every day at practice. But 10 players a night isn’t going to get W’s.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Nov 29, 2010 9:22 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, i agree it might work. We put Head, Evans & Greene in our starting line up with JT and Cousins. We don’t need Sam starting if our guards and sf can stay in front of their man and stop penetration, this way we can accelerate Cousins development plus we’ll have treat from every position especially down low.
Not exactly on topic
But my thoughts after this bad start is you play the guys you hope develop Evans Cousins Casspi and Greene and JT(Whiteside when he’s ready) and then add the 3 or 4 veterans that you think give you the best chance to win. You pick ’em.
Btw nice post. Interesting.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Your putting too much faith in the offense that beat bad teams
we won our first 3 games by 7 pts. So, it’s not we dominated anyone, and Minny is tied for the 2nd worst record and Toronto is only 2 games in the win column better than us.
But forget about the numbers, did we actually look like a good offense in any of those games. Coming back from a double digit deficit against weak teams doesn’t prove that offense was all that good.
The only good thing that has happened to the KIngs this season, has been the defensive play since PW started the new lineup with Sammy, Carl, Donte, Luther and Tyreke.
And, everyone seems to be forgetting, that if Tyreke had scored in the Cav’s game (21) and Toronto game (23) like he did in the Hornets game (9) or the the Jazz game (11) , or the Clippers game (8). Maybe we’d have lost those earl game too. If he just shot his average against the Hornet and the Jazz, we’d probably have won those with the new defensive minded line up. And, beating the Hornet and Jazz is a lot more impressive than beating Minny, Toronto & Cleveland.
And, please no one try to say that Head taking Beno’s spot, cost Evans pts. Evans doesn’t even us screens form his bigs let alone any help from Beno.
This is a bad offensive team no matter what lineup we start. GP knows it and even said it, although not many people here we’re willing to listen because the defense was giving up so many point to bad teams. Well the defense is better, and now the extent of how badly the offense is, is being to become evident.
The offense needs to improve, but not at the expense of the defense. Instead of looking for the answer by repeating the same mistake that a lot of people here have been pointing out as PW’s biggest problem. (looking to the bench for answers that aren’t there) Maybe we should just concentrate on working with the players we have to improve how they run the offense. At least until we get better 2 way players.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Defensive cure all
You have to realize as well is that the new defense not only lost to good teams but also lost to the lowly clippers. and by 18 points no less. Even if Tyreke has scored like he had in the cav’s and raptor’s games we still would have lost. plus you are saying that the improved defense is showing how poor our offense is? How does that happen to make sense? Defense is supposed to result in turnovers. Turnovers become opportunities or fast breaks, aka easy buckets. But we held a team to 32 percent shooting and still lost by 4. we only reached 71 pts. No matter how good your defense is, nobody is ever going to shut the other team out. therefore, to win, you must outscore the other team (John Madden would be proud of that analysis). If you can’t translate turnovers and poor shooting into points than there is no point in getting the turnovers in the first place. Buckets=Points=Wins Before the defense lineup 98.6 ppg the defensive lineup is averaging 80.25. only enough to have maybe won the hornets game. Basketball is a game based on offense, its that simple.
Defense is work, offense is fun.
The thing about shooters, is they make the game seem easy. I see us play teams who are getting the exact shots we are and we’re down ten by half. No one is making it easy. I think we have 3 shooters right now Casspi Cisco and Head.. If I was PW I would tell Head he is being benched every time he passes up and open 3. Udrih was a shooter, but he’s not here right now.
He left. I did not see him leave, this is not unusual for him, he seems to leave in even numbered years. He’ll be back in January.
Our defensive lineup does not have 1 shooter in it (someone who hits at least 38% from 3 and 80% from the line (yes I realize I just called Omri not a shooter)). Its hard for them. If they can only get to 85 on a good night…it’ll be a long boring season.
I’ll shut up because I depressed myself and realized I don’t even agree with everything I say.
Yes I do. No I don’t. Rat Bastard! Aarp Asshole….bye.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
And, the season starting offensive line up lost to the Nets,
and then before we found a line up that could defend we lost to Minny by 9, Det by 6, and the Knicks by 7, so losing to the Clippers with Tyreke only scoring 8 pts and Dalembert only playing 9 minutes proves nothing.
And, you missed the entire point of my post. That the Kings are a bad offensive team no matter what line up we put out there. At least until, the players learn to play better team ball.
But, until we do learn to play better offense, there’s no use in giving up on the one thing that we have improved on, and that’s defense. If you solely judge this teams improvement by the win/loss record your in for a major disappointment.
And, putting your faith in a starting line up that contains Beno, to get this team winning again is a sever miscalculation.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
I always get a kick out of arguments about whether offense or defense is more important
Unless they changed the rules without my knowledge, preventing the opponent from scoring 2 points is exactly as valuable as scoring 2 points.
by Charlieb on Nov 29, 2010 4:36 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes Charlie..
…but I think Craunic points out correctly that a great offensive player always has an advantage over a great defensive player.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
For an individual player, I agree that an elite offensive player is more valuable than an elite defensive player
Because a team can choose to run all of their offense through one player, and a team can’t choose for the opposing team to run all of their offensive plays at your best defender (typically the opposite happens).
But Craunic is talking about teams as a whole. When you look at the big picture, putting points on the board is just as valuable as putting point
by Charlieb on Nov 29, 2010 9:21 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I agreed with your point mostly and Caunic's too.
I think we all can see there is multiple perspectives about this.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
For an individual player, I agree that an elite offensive player is more valuable than an elite defensive player
Because a team can choose to run all of their offense through one player, and a team can’t choose for the opposing team to run all of their offensive plays at your best defender (typically the opposite happens).
But Craunic is talking about teams as a whole. When you look at the big picture, putting points on the board is just as valuable as preventing the opponent from putting points on the board. One can’t possibly be more valuable than the other.
by Charlieb on Nov 29, 2010 9:22 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Agree with your premise they are just as valuable
But good defense is more consistent than good offense, and in that sense I think it prevents long losing streaks and keeps you in every game.
But if you tell me my team is going to go 22-60, I would rather watch them go 22-60 with a good offense rather than a good defense.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
That's another axiom I've always disagreed with
Even if defensive play is more consistent than offensive play (which I won’t argue), the results on that end will still be equally erratic because the points you give up will be affected by the streaky (or cold) shooting of your opponents. To counter your example, I could say that good offense prevents losing streaks, because it allows you to stay in the game even if your opponent is shooting the lights out. No matter how you look at it, offense and defense are two equal sides of the same coin.
I definitely agree with your second point, though. If I have to watch a miserable team that can only play on one end of the court, I’d rather see some points scored.
by Charlieb on Nov 29, 2010 11:09 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Your last paragraph is the problem with this Kings team as I see it.
They are improved defensively, but miserable because their offense is suffering.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I think because defense is a result of effort
and smart timely rotations a good defense will comsistently be good and occasionally victimized by a hot shooting team.
Offense also has a need to be cerebral but is also a result of rote muscle memory which can malfunction at any given time and is way less predictable. This can be mitigated by having 6-8 shooters on a team and playing the ones that are hot. If you have 2 I think the offensive flucuations will be more pronounced.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
I agree with the key point about balance, but think you have suggested an inbalance
A strating line up of Dalembert, Landry, Casspi, Evand and Udrih is not balanced. Sammy D does not make balance out the lack of D from Landry, Casspi, Udrih and at times Evans. In effect you’ve suggested a ration of 1:4 or when Evans is focused 2:3 in terms of defence to offence. I don’t think thats a good balance.
Your second option is better: Head, Evans, Greene, Landry (or JT), and Cousins.
Personally I think you probably have to keep JT on the banch if you start Cousins…both of them on the floor gets us over the foul limit way too often and will probably mean they only play together sparsely, so no real consistency in the starting lineup to be had if one or the other is off the floor.
I have said this before, Landry ideally is a sixth man. He doesn’t board or block at a high enough rate…right now his block rate is 0.2 p/g…on the other hand Darko is averaging 2.8 and bargnani who is rebounding at a similar rate is averaging 0.9 per game, which is 4.5x better than Landry.
Furthermore, I personally don’t think the idea that Casspi is significantly better offensively than Donte is true…their scoring rates in relation to their minutes per doesnt suggest a huge gap at all. However Casspi is far better from 3 in my opinion. So my point, basically, is that Donte is just a more balanced player right now which means a lineup with him in it over Casspi makes the team more balanced right now.
Head over Beno is simple to me…Beno just cannot stop his man from scoring, this makes his offense on mosts nights negligible…if you start him at the 2 its even worse and if you start him at PG in a conference loaded with PG’s he’ll get burnt more nights than not…my point about Beno is that starting him is not in fact counter balanced by having other more defensively skilled players in the starting lineup…Dalambert can only block/change so many shots a night…and when Beno gets burnt and his man pulls up for the open jumper its over, theres nothing much Sammy can do about that. Moreover Beno getting burnt isnt just about his man scoring its about letting his man collapse our defense and pass it off for an easy shot…these things are not counter-balanced by just having 1 or 2 better defensive players around him since it ruins the whole defensive set-up…you have to remember that PG is the most important position for a reason. So I think you might as well get the benefit of Head hitting open 3’s and containing some opposing PG’s.
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