Quick Poll - The Cause
by section214 on Nov 7, 2010 6:11 PM PST
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Hmm… I wonder if this has something to do with the in-game debate we had last night, section?
I said players, or in other words, talent level/amount of youth/inexperience
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
This has to do
with the conversation that has permeated throughout the blog. As with my earlier quick polls regarding Donté Greene and ranking the 2nd tier bigs, I post a poll based on the level of activity and conversation that takes place on the blog. It is important to note that I simply post the poll, and I save any personal commentary for the thread.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Oh yeah,
by “we” I meant the participants of last night’s second game thread, not just you and I. And it’s a great question, it’s something that’s been on my mind a lot of today.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
I went with players
but ask me back after 20 games and I’ll have a better idea. 6 games is a very small sample and can’t really put too much blame on anyone for an actual decent start
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
I also chose the players
Not as the sole cause, but as the primary cause.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Nov 7, 2010 6:20 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
For sure
I actually thought about not voting and equally ‘blaming’ the players and coaching staff but then I considered the decent start and the reasons why I thought we lost those 3 games (some lazy defense and offensive execution against Jersey, Lakers just being a better team, and mostly turnovers last night).
Yes, there’s some debate going on when it comes to the coaching staff as it pertains to the use of Donte and maybe some other random criticisms but there’s no way I can honestly say that those little things are why the Kings have this record.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Players
The responsibility rest on the shoulders of the players, but it’s not a terrible thing. We have a young team and some growing pains are to be expected.
Personally, I think we're all kind of overreacting.
Yeah, last night’s game was pretty bad. But we didn’t lose because of a lack of effort, and our team is still super young. We knew we weren’t a playoff team going into the season. I was just as excited as the next person when we reached 2-1, and I think it skewed our expectations for this team, and that’s unfair to our players. It is so early in the season to be talking about who to blame – and really, for what? 3-3 is not a bad record. Minnesota, LAC, Houston, Memphis, Charlotte, Toronto, Washington, Detroit, Philly, Milwaukee, NJ, Indiana and Chicago all have worse records. We’re on par with OKC, Utah, Phoenix, and Cleveland. We lose to Memphis, and suddenly everyone’s talking like it’s 11:59 PM on December 20, 2012.
Everybody loses. It’s okay. On to the next game.
Actually,
the poll question is as relevant if you are pleased or satisfied with the current progress of the team (I had them at 1-2 road and 2-1 home at this point, so 3-3 overall). That is, if they are where they belong, it is due primarily to…
I choose the players, either way.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
me too
PW was not the main reason they lost three games, but also not the main reason they won three games.
Dunking Dutchman
we didn’t lose because of a lack of effort
I disagree. From my view in section 208 the team looked impossibly sluggish and lacked enthusiasm on Saturday. Slow starts leading to second half energetic comebacks also tell me that consistent effort IS one of our problems. We have players playing lax defense, standing on their heels, and waiting for something to happen. If the players aren’t enthused, I don’t see how the fans are supposed to be.
"The Kings have nothing to lose but their games."
I thought they looked tired/sluggish as well
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 9, 2010 9:04 AM PST up reply actions
It's gotta be the players
They aren’t without talent, but they haven’t been playing that well. Period. There have been some questions regarding the coaching (for me, it’s mainly the issue of Donte…if he’s out of shape, say so. It makes no sense to me that he doesn’t even have a chance when he’s such a solid defender), but the coaches don’t make the players miss easy shots. They don’t cause turnovers or stupid fouls. We’re a young team and mistakes are going to happen. We don’t have the best talent in the league so a 3-3 start shouldn’t be surprising.
Question though…for whoever voted for the fans, I’d be curious to hear your reasoning.
"That was the most offensive thing I have seen in 20 years of teaching and that includes an elementary school production of "Hair.""
I didn't see an option to vote for Kenny Thomas.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
I picked coaches
Just to balance things out a bit. Players have to be put in a position to win. Putting PFs into a role of SF isn’t using your talent wisely or putting players into a position to achieve success. Realistically, it is some of both. Coaches and players, but the coach is more responsible in my opinion for a few of the losses.
Not playing team defense is a big issue for me. To focus solely on man to man defense even when some player is shredding our guys is poor coaching. Why let Lopez score 25 points before you start doubling him? When did they finally start doubling Gay? I saw some of that at the end of the game. They went into a zone late into the game. They didn’t need to do that if they were able to give adequate help defense. Seems they are having issues with team defense and that really is coaching.
Paul Westphal needs to settle into a regular rotation. He doesn’t seem inclined to do that whatsoever. Players are still getting jerked in and out of rotations, put in positions they just don’t naturally play, and have no clear understanding of their role in the team. This hurt chemistry on both ends of the floor and now that is the players fault?
I was very frustrated with the whole rotation issue last year and now it seems like we are heading down that road again. If this doesn’t settle down quick then I really think there has to be an honest discussion about whether or not PW is going to be able to be successful.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Although I voted players for now (see Ed's comment about asking me again next month)
Players have to be put in a position to win.
Why let Lopez score 25 points before you start doubling him? When did they finally start doubling Gay?
Opponents are quick to double Tyreke, hell, Memphis doubled Cousins a few times. And if a zone D means leaving no one within 8 feet of Rudy Gay (which happened several times) I think we should skip it or do a combo zone/man.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 7, 2010 10:08 PM PST up reply actions
I agree that more time is needed
And yet, PW has players at every position now. He has SFs he can play at SF and doesn’t need to plug in PFs. It isn’t like he has a roster with holes in it. He has people to play at the positions they are best at and yet he resorts to crazy rotations with no regard to talent and strengths. JT and Landry as our new wing players is just ludicrous.
I think he has a short amount of time to get this right. Everybody gave him an excuse last season because we were tearing down and had an incomplete roster to some degree, but no more. He has players at each position and needs to play them. This team cannot win with wildly inconsistent rotations that are fielded with little consideration to player’s strengths and abilities.
Time is ticking. And it won’t take long before he gets heat from more than just fans.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
I was going to vote for the fans but decided to vote for the players instead (hehehe)
Which is not to say that everyone else on that list is blameless. I just think that most of the success (and failures) on the court is dependent on the players.
Sure, bad coaching loses games. But I think it’s easier for teams with superior players/athletes and mediocre coaches to win (LBJ’s Cavs with Mike Brown) than it is for great coaches with ok players (Larry Brown’s Bobcats).
There can only be one Noce!
The Players.
A players league = a players win or loss. The coaching staff is there to aid the players, but it’s still up to them to get the job done.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
That being said
Players do not determine playing time, position, offensive sets, nor defensive philosophies and rotations. I think the coaching staff has more to do than aid the players, they have to give proper direction and have an executable plan.
The poll question was:
The 3-3 start to this season, and the current level of the Kings play rests primarily on the shoulders of
That is entirely on the players. The players are responsible for their effort. Not the coaches, not Geoff Petrie, not you or God or anyone else. The players are responsible for their playing time.
I’m not saying that the coaches don’t have an effect. But, again, the players are primarily responsible for the success of your team. It’s not just a coaching staff. That’s just an excuse IMO. Paul Westphal is not subject to our whims as fans, nor should he be. You can’t run a franchise, or coach a team, with the public as part of the process. The public is only listened to in this context because we’re buying the product. Otherwise, we’re ignored from the coaching standpoint.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I think a proper poll question
for the discussion we had the other nite would have been:
“Do you think the Kings lack of cohesion, ball movement, and taking the best shots for their skill set on offense rests primarily on the players or coaches?”
It took me 10 secs to digest the question and I'm still not sure how to answer.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
I voted coaches
Mostly because I question a lot of Westphal’s in-game decision making. Like sticking with an obviously cold Landry for long stretches when Jackson could use some burn. Or leaving Beno in while the opposing teams guard repeatedly carves up our backcourt with Donté riding the pine.
I’m not saying é is the answer, but he’s a better defensive option at 2 than Beno. And our backcourt is getting destroyed. Fréé Donté.
Dip til I rip
by Muff209 on Nov 8, 2010 10:55 AM PST via mobile reply actions
If not free Donté, at least free Beer....
Sound the trumpets, Raise the drawbridge, and drop the Oldsmobile
It's up to coaches to make the best situation out of what's there
For the most part, we know what each player generally brings to the table. Offensively speaking: Evans will find a way to get to the hoop, Beno has an incredible stop-and-pop, Casspi will light the chariots afire whilst raining down Bombris.
We know who can be counted on for defensive purposes: Dalembert can be expected to play decent man-on-man defense, El Flaco can fill up the defensive stat sheet on any given night, and Greene is THE best defensive 11th or 12th man on a 9 or 10 man rotation ever in the history of the NBA.
My point is, we know what we can expect on a night-to-night basis from the players. Yes, they can and should play better; or at least learn how to improve during the season. Players score the points, play defense, and all that good stuff with the ball.
But it’s really up to the coach to get everyone on the same page. He needs to tell them that, yes, they really need to run through screens. Or that they need to watch where their man is on the arc. The coach needs to get them to react to an offense with sufficient defense. I don’t think it’d be hard to do this during repeated practice scrimmages.
The coach needs to understand that Thompson is NaSF in the same sense that Garcia is NaPG.
The coach also needs to emphasize that unless there’s 2 seconds left on the shot clock, the center should NOT take 3-point shots. Or that Dalembert should not be trusted on ISO plays (sorry Sammy, it’s true).
Philosophy falls upon the coaching staff, and that ultimately leads to team play. Otherwise, we could just have a bunch of guys out there playing individual streetball.
This same argument goes for the workplace as well—managers need to set the direction for their staff. The employees are the ones who do the work, but managers should recognize the strengths and weaknesses of their employees and adjust the team to fit needs as necessary.
Ultimately, the successes and failures fall upon the manager/coach. If an assignment isn’t completed by a team, the team-members don’t get blamed by executive management—it’s their direct supervisor who receives most of the heat. Same goes for basketball teams. It’s one of the reasons why we see coaches and GMs get fired all the time. They need to do the best they can with what they’ve got.
We all see the Kings have a collection of players who can play well—at least they’re not the (seemingly) random collection of players like those on Minnesota and Detroit. All I’m asking for is better management.
by clicc916 on Nov 8, 2010 12:29 PM PST reply actions 5 recs
Actually, the head coaches dictates what their roles will be
and we all know what happens when you don’t adhere to the role set by the coach.
So, when Carl recieves a pass from Beno 18ft from the basket, foul line extended, you had better believe that’s what the coach wants him to do. At least if that happens more than 6-9 times a game. So, if Carl takes 6 long jumpers because he can’t beat his man off the dribble, the coach has to take at least part of the blame. And, Carl has to take the other part of the blame for not being a SF or SG. (ducks into sar-Chasm)
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Yes
I think he is saying something close to your statement as well.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Rec'd, even though I still think that the players are primarily responsible
My question is, even if everything that you say is spot on, isn’t it ultimately up to the player(s) to execute. That is, if a team that has done a good job of protecting the ball through five games (12 to’s pg) suddenly coughs it up 20 times in game six, is that the players or is that the coaching? If a team shoots tons of free throws at practice every game, but then shoots 72.5% from the line in the game (tied for 24th in the league), is that the coaching?
I guess what I am saying is that I agree with almost everything that you say here, but that is still the job of the players to get it done, and whether or not those players get it done will also be the largest component of a team’s overall success or failure.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I agree with your agreement, which doesn't necessarily agree with my point of view
There are certain aspects to the game that is really up to the players. Players will have bad nights, and though I haven’t played professional ball, I’ve played enough organized basketball to understand that one player’s bad performance can lead to an entire team playing bad.
I get that coaches can run shooting/defensive/etc. drills all they want in practice but that it ultimately falls on the players’ shoulders to “follow” through with said training in the games. But when things don’t turn out quite as well, it is up to the coach to manage the game. Bad free throw shooting from Landry/Casspi/Evans? Evaluate why they are shooting bad. Is it the pressure of the game? The tempo? Poor shooting mechanics? Lack of desire to improve their FT shooting (I’m looking at you Shaq)?
Management has to also look at issues such as perimeter defense and turnovers. Why are they not playing well? Lack of desire to rotate? Do they just not know how/when to adjust their man-defense? Are they not quick enough to cover their man?
I didn’t watch the Memphis game, so I don’t know why Cousins and Dalembert had half of the teams turnovers. But the coaches can evaluate during the game to see if either one was trying to do too much (and getting frustrated by Memphis’ bigs). If so, come up with a plan to minimize turnovers.
I guess this is turning into a chicken or egg argument. I come from the perspective that if a player isn’t performing, or having problems performing, it’s up to the coaches to find out what’s going on and try to find a remedy. If that problem doesn’t go away for whatever reason, the coach has to be able to play around that weakness.
At least 4 of those TOs, 2 each on Dalembert and Cousins
were offensive charges. One more on Sammy was also an offensive foul for no good reason on a rebound late in the game (sigh). Offensive charges are from being aggressive so I really have no problem (I thought a few should have been called the other way) and certainly don’t blame coaching.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 9, 2010 9:13 AM PST up reply actions
The Coach must share responsiblitity because he puts the players in a position to succeed or fail.
We all realize that the ball is in the players hands. But, it is the coaches job to give them a chance to perform like he’s taught.
At the end of a game, where you know the other team is going to foul, doesn’t the coach take the poor FT shooters off the floor? And, if he didn’t and one of the poor shooters was fouled and missed both FT’s, isn’t the coach partially responsible?
When a player like Landry who is a career 70% shooter in the low blocks, comes out to the foul line extended to receive a pass from the guard. And, then he’s expected to beat his man one on one, and ends up taking a long 2. Well isn’t that even partially the coaches fault?
Carl averaged 5.5 attempts at the rim shooting 67.7% and 1.9 attempts on long 2’s shooting 32%, in Houston last season. This season he’s taking 2.7 attempts at the rim and shooting 56.3%, while taking 5.7 attempts from long 2’s and shooting only 38%.
This is designed as part of Westphal’s offensive plan. No one averages 5.7 attempts for 6 games if the coach didn’t want it. Because if he didn’t want it, he’d tell Beno to stop getting him the ball there. So, is it Carl’s fault for shooting 38% on long 2’s? Yes, because he took and missed the shot. But, is the coach blame free? No, because he put the player in a position where he didn’t have a good opportunity to succeed. Carl isn’t going to beat his man one on one and drive all the way to the rim from 18ft away.
Now, I’m not saying that the coach is equally to blame as the players for everything that goes bad. But, the coach shouldn’t always be above criticism when players fail, either.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
I don't disagree that the coaches play a role here,
but I simply do not agree that they play even close to an equal role for this team at this time. And I agree that the coaches are not above criticism. That said, I do feel that they get a lot of criticism that should be directed at the players.
It is my contention that coaches rarely win/lose games and that players often win/lose games. It is my further contention that if you remove the top 3-5 NBA coaches and the bottom 3-5 NBA coaches from the remaining coaches are pretty much interchangeable. Simply put, I feel that managers and coaches receive way too much credit/blame. To wit, may I present Bruce Bochy, a moron turned genius in a span of six weeks.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Nov 9, 2010 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Bruce Bochy was a guy who didn't know how to win a big game with quality talent in San Diego.
Suddenly, he figured out to win in San Francisco.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Very well said HT
Of course success and failure is going to be shared, but it is important to separate things a bit. A player missing free throws or missing defensive assignments? There is nothing a Coach can do except bench him. Having a superior low block scorer shooting 18 footers? The Coach needs to draw up a better plan.
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