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Carl Landry Off the Bench: Why Isn't It Working for the Kings?

For the last six games, Carl Landry has come off the bench for the Kings. That follows, since last February, 42 straight games as the team's starter at power forward. But Landry certainly had plenty of experience as a bench player in Houston; he was a top candidate for Sixth Man of the Year before last season's trade with the Rockets, and was an integral part of some good Houston teams before that.

It hasn't exactly worked out very well the last few weeks. Landry has looked at times unsure, and occasionally even frustrated with his performance, maybe his role. We've never seen Landry look like this in the NBA. In Houston, he knew what was needed of him, and he executed. Last season, he never showed hesitation on either end, even as he learned a new system and new teammates on the fly.

But this bench move has him all sort of twisted up. In six games off the bench, Landry is averaging 6.3 points and 2.2 rebounds in 20.8 minutes while shooting 37 percent. As a starter, though underwhelming, he's been better: 14.4 points, 5.8 rebounds in 30.7 minutes while shooting 48 percent.

Again: his performance as a starter this season has been underwhelming. But off the bench, he's been much worse: he's scoring about a third less frequently per-minute, rebounding half as frequently and shooting much, much worse.

Star-divide

He's currently averaging 10 points and 3.8 rebounds per 36 minutes off the bench this season. In 51 games off the Houston bench a year ago, Landry averaged 21.4 points and 7.3 rebounds per 36. Is he really half the player he was last year?

Let's assume not; Hot Carl is only 27 years old, after all, with just 5,000 minutes on his NBA treads. (Chris Bosh, who is still 26 years old, has almost 20,000 minutes under his belt, for comparison's sake.) So what gives? What could be wrong with Carl Landry?

* Injury. Our bench sample size is small and recent. Landry injured his back just before the Bulls game, which was his first non-start of the season. If he's had continued trouble with the injury, that could help explain the bad production. There hasn't been much talk about Landry's back since then, but it's something to keep in mind.

* Adjustment time. Moving from a big-minutes, major-role spot in the starting five to a less-minutes, undetermined-role spot off the bench might need some adjustment. Landry has never come off the bench in Paul Westphal's system. Certainly, many of us remember Rick Adelman's iron-tight rotations, where the 6-8 players had just as consistent a role as the 1-5. That's simply not the case with Westphal, for better or worse. Does Landry just need more time to find his new role off the bench? It's possible.

* Discomfort with the role. This is different from needing time to adjust: maybe Landry's just not comfortable in the role on this team. I'm not blaming his ego -- he's a selfless dude with a winning attitude, from everything I've seen, heard and read -- but his game. Off the bench this season, he averaged 0.28 field goal attempts per minute. As a starter, he averaged 0.38 FGAs per minute. That's a big difference: a shot every 3.5 minutes versus every 2.5 game minutes. Last year off the bench with Houston, he was on 0.39 FGAs per minute, similar to as a starter here. Perhaps on this team a bench role doesn't provide enough shots to make Landry productive -- he is, after all, a scorer first and foremost.

Whatever the case, given that Landry was believed to be Sacramento's second most talented player, the Kings desperately need him to find his way.

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I think there have been some mis-steps with Landry

He often still gets the ball at the top of the 3 point line to pass around the arc. His role of distributor is, IMO a misuse of his talents.

Also, I think it is easy for other teams to defend against him. You know when he gets the ball in the post he is going to put it up. They just collapse on him like they do Tyreke. Landry often still tries to put it up instead of passing out.

The half court sets of the Kings involve very few plays and are predictable. It really can’t be that hard for other teams to be prepared to defend against when they know what is going to happen.

I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...

by MustangMBS on Dec 10, 2010 1:54 PM PST reply actions  

maybe

a lack of good outside shooting has contributed. it’s easy for teams to pack the paint. but, until tyreke develops a consistent outside shot or we acquire a shooter, i don’t see this changing too much.

by ziggie on Dec 10, 2010 2:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Pretty sure people collapsed on Landry in Houston plus Landry never passed back out.

there are easier and more logical ways to question whether Tyreke and Landry mesh well.

I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.

by wallywagon11 on Dec 10, 2010 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

somethings not working

at this point, your nickel analysis is as good as mine. all i know is the kings have turned a potential sixth man of the year into a guy that’s barely producing role player type numbers.

by ziggie on Dec 11, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions  

In a interview on KHTK, Landry said

Westphal is a players coach who let’s the players play their own game. If that’s true than I can’t see why it would be the Kings fault that Carl has gone from 60% of his shots at the rim to 60% of his shots from long 2’s. He’s shooting 20% from long 2’s, so maybe he might be better not taking those shots.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Dec 11, 2010 11:59 AM PST up reply actions  

really

i guess the kings are doing everything right ! the maloofs are great…..PW is coach of the year….and GP is GM of the year !!!

by ziggie on Dec 11, 2010 12:27 PM PST up reply actions  

You either didn't read HT's comment correctly,

or you completely missed the point, as his comment had absolutely nothing to do with the Maloofs being great, Westphal being coach of the year, or GP being GM of the year. Absoulutely nothing.

What it did allude to was the fact that Landry himself said that the players are allowed to play their own game, which would seem to initmate that Landry is at least partially responsible for his shot selection (and if Westphal is allowing that sort of flexibility, he is responsible as well for not reining it in).

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by section214 on Dec 11, 2010 12:35 PM PST up reply actions  

We have Omri and Cisco who are both pretty good outside shooters, Beno ain't no slouch either

If we tried an approach making that work similar to Orlando it probably would be pretty effective.

I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...

by MustangMBS on Dec 10, 2010 4:20 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think it's fair to compare the Kings 3 point shooting to Orlandos

Because we really don’t compare. They can shoot well from 4 positions and are 2 deep at all of them. If we used the Orlando system we would be in a similar situation because our shooters aren’t that good and Landry isn’t Dwight Howard.

by jstnblke41 on Dec 11, 2010 4:39 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

The most disturbing thing for me

Has been his rebounding. I know in general he’s a mediocre rebounder, but he’s been lousy in that area recently. In one thread I noted that he had 1 defensive rebound in a 62 minute period. Another touting point for him when he came over was his free throw shooting. That hasn’t been particularly great either.

Another thing I’ve noticed is that he’s become much more of a perimeter player with us and seeing as how those are generally lower percentage shots than block/post up shots, that could be affecting his offensive output as well.

by outrider on Dec 10, 2010 1:57 PM PST reply actions  

If Carl ever got to the level

of mediocre rebounder, I’d be a happy man

There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.

by ElRonToro on Dec 10, 2010 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually his offesive rebounding is quite good

5th on the team both % and per 36. Comparable to Cuz and Jackson. It’s only his defensive rebounding that is horrendous.

"This season is another learning process for this team. There is no segment of the schedule that looms larger than the sum of the season, in my opinion."

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by SavageBeast on Dec 10, 2010 3:01 PM PST up reply actions  

While never a great rebounder he was better in Houston

In Houston he played primarily in the paint/block, in Sac he plays more mid range, farther away from the hoop.

He doesn’t look happy to me, he has to be unhappy with his role here and he may not be a good fit with the rest of the team and/or the coaching staff. With his contract ending he has to be hoping and expecting a strong year for himself as he plays for his next contract, the only one that is ever going to potentially pay him bigger bucks. I’m just guessing but if the Kings had more of a distributing pg who could get him the ball where he likes he would undoubtedly be more effective.

As far as rebounding goes we sure get more boards from Carl than we do from Donté. Landry has never had a reputation as a good rebounder, he’s an undersized 4 with a shooters mentality and I don’t find his lack of big rebounding surprising. What I still don’t understand is why Donté at 6’-11", highly athletic, possessing mad hops, gets away with being a flat out inconsistent and weak rebounder.

It’s the players job to keep the coach happy, not the coach’s job to keep the player happy. - Paul Westphal quoted from The Purple Panjandrum

by Bluejohn on Dec 10, 2010 4:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Donte' does not play 4

He is out on the perimeter guarding SFs and given that I think this is not really a fair comparison

I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...

by MustangMBS on Dec 10, 2010 4:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed, and maybe because his role was defined as to defend and hit open shots

he’s unwilling to leave his man to rebound when so many other players are already doing that.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Dec 10, 2010 5:07 PM PST up reply actions  

This is it in a nutshell
I’m just guessing but if the Kings had more of a distributing pg who could get him the ball where he likes he would undoubtedly be more effective.

"It really was amazing to see the difference in this team when Pooh was out there moving the ball. Crisp passing, set plays, movement, and Oh yeah, SMILES & PASSION exhibited by the other players on the floor."

by NewEraKings on Dec 10, 2010 8:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Right.

Because what Carl Landry needs right now is for Aaron Brooks to pass him the ball.

GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
iashwash, you are the voice of reason - Holmdel

by iashwash on Dec 11, 2010 7:05 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Aaron Brooks probably isn't the right fit

and I’m not sure how he became a part of this conversation. I’d rather have Lowry than Brooks myself, although he’s probably a backup. A combo of Lowry and Pooh could be interesting.

"It really was amazing to see the difference in this team when Pooh was out there moving the ball. Crisp passing, set plays, movement, and Oh yeah, SMILES & PASSION exhibited by the other players on the floor."

by NewEraKings on Dec 11, 2010 8:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Carl Landry was pretty effective with a ball-hogging shoot-first point guard, and that's how Aaron Brooks became a part of this conversation.

GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
iashwash, you are the voice of reason - Holmdel

by iashwash on Dec 11, 2010 9:14 AM PST up reply actions  

Landry played with the second unit in Houston

Kyle Lowry is the backup point guard. Put it together.

"It really was amazing to see the difference in this team when Pooh was out there moving the ball. Crisp passing, set plays, movement, and Oh yeah, SMILES & PASSION exhibited by the other players on the floor."

by NewEraKings on Dec 12, 2010 3:02 PM PST up reply actions  

I am optimisticly waiting to see Landry play more together with Pooh.

Might not work but it would be interesting to see if Pooh does a better job of getting Landry the ball down low.

I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.

by wallywagon11 on Dec 10, 2010 2:14 PM PST reply actions  

and I also am not going to start expecting rebounding from Landry. Never been his strong suit.

I just hope he gets his offensive game worked out sooner rather than later.

I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.

by wallywagon11 on Dec 10, 2010 2:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Pooh knows

Pooh made that very point in a SacBee interview earlier this week:

Jeter is working to earn Westphal’s trust and more playing time. Jeter believes he’s savvy enough to know what the Kings need to do to get the offense going consistently.

Play fast and find teammates, that is.

“You’ve got to know Cisco (García) needs shots,” Jeter said. “You’ve got to know Carl (Landry) needs the ball in the post. Even though I’m a rookie and it’s my first year in the NBA, I kind of know the game.”

"It really was amazing to see the difference in this team when Pooh was out there moving the ball. Crisp passing, set plays, movement, and Oh yeah, SMILES & PASSION exhibited by the other players on the floor."

by NewEraKings on Dec 10, 2010 8:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Pooh may be a NBA rookie..

…but he’s a basketball veteran.

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by pookeyguru on Dec 11, 2010 9:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Landry sucks

trust me i know. Anytime you have a 4 man that shoots jumpers and doesn’t rebound=he sucks. He is to small and to soft to defend 4’s. He cant compete at this level at that position. Now he is crying and gives no effort. We should try to trade him now while he still maintains some value from his numbers with Houston

by Tomahawksmith on Dec 10, 2010 2:23 PM PST reply actions  

You really signed up over a year ago

To make your first comment now – and this was it? This deserves a failpic, to be honest.

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~ Rogers Hornsby

by otis29 on Dec 10, 2010 2:26 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

landry

landry knew his role in houston….nobody knows their role in SAC. PW’s system does not seem to promote the post game. personally, i think we need to go low first. but, i think most of the time it’s all been about tyreke…

by ziggie on Dec 10, 2010 2:33 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Landry is a bad 1 yr rental! At the end of his contract he leave and sign with another team and Petrie will be remember for great move of giving KMart to Houston for nothing!

"I’d insult you, but the sad truth is that you wouldn’t understand and if I tried to explain it to you, your brain might implode from information overload."

by LagunaKing on Dec 10, 2010 3:51 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

ups missing some words there but u get the point lol

"I’d insult you, but the sad truth is that you wouldn’t understand and if I tried to explain it to you, your brain might implode from information overload."

by LagunaKing on Dec 10, 2010 3:53 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Plus

can you spell Cap Space?

There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.

by ElRonToro on Dec 10, 2010 4:01 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

congrats

you just surpassed cowboyron in the competition of “Whiniest Fan in History.”

I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.

by wallywagon11 on Dec 10, 2010 3:54 PM PST up reply actions  

maybe

if the kings do not get something substantial when/if they trade landry….yes, he gave martin away for nothing…

by ziggie on Dec 11, 2010 11:22 AM PST up reply actions  

It's not like he hasn't seen success coming off the bench before.

I’d say Landry needs to take a page from Thompson’s playbook…yeah the guy who was professional and stuck through it until he returned to the starting lineup, taking Landry’s place.

by DirtyDribblers on Dec 10, 2010 4:30 PM PST reply actions  

It's a mystery to me

I’ve watched him his whole career as he went to my Alma, Purdue. When we made the trade I assured everyone that he was a good player – but he was no more or less than the your 3rd big, 1st off the bench. Lately he hasn’t even lived up to that.

It’s puzzling and I wonder if there are personal issues distracting him.

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- and teach them how to war!
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by lietothegirls on Dec 10, 2010 4:46 PM PST reply actions  

I think he just needs to stick to taking shots at the rim, Up to him/Coaches to enforce it.

by chenp22 on Dec 10, 2010 5:35 PM PST up reply actions  

His FT shooting is also on the decline.

I like the suggestion that he’s under pressure to perform because he’s in a big contract year. And, he’s said more than once that people have to realize that pro basketball is a profession and some players are playing to feed and care for their family.

Actually, I think the truth is he’s just in a shooting slump. He only shot 3-15 from long 2’s over the last 6 games. But, he was 6-7 at the rim over the same peroid. He was 2-6 from short jumpers and 2-7 from mid range jumpers.

So, inside 10ft he shot 8-13 for 61.5%, and outside 10ft he was 5-22 for 22.7%. Also over that period we played to good caliber teams, LAL, IND, Mavs and Chi.

I don’t know why he’s getting the ball outside so often, because he must know that he’s got a better chance of scoring inside. But, maybe he thinks if he doesn’t come out to get the ball, no one will every pass it to him inside?

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Dec 10, 2010 5:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Also could his stats in Houston last year be helped

by the fact that Houston played with no true C most of the season, so he could crash the o-board, finish at the rim?

This.

by elfboy_ on Dec 10, 2010 7:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Play Carl with Pooh and Boogie...

With Pooh: Carl can benefit from a faster pace/ fast break opportunities and a guard who will find him along the baseline.
With Boogie: Boogie in the low block can find Carl cutting to the basket from the top of the key.

by getPGwithbounce on Dec 10, 2010 5:23 PM PST reply actions  

i don't think a faster pace helps him

With Houston they were a half court team and I’ve never really seen him make a major impact in the transition game. He doesn’t run the floor particularly well so I don’t see how he’d keep up with Pooh and we all know how slow the other Kings guards have been getting their plays started.
The opportunities just aren’t there for him and I think half of the problem is physical. His conditioning was not great to start camp and his back has acted up. Aside from taking too many jumpers I think he isn’t as explosive around the basket this season.

by Kevin Conroy on Dec 10, 2010 11:18 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

I love that photo of Landry.

It looks like he is being repelled from the ball by some mysterious force. Maybe that explains his rebounding numbers of late.

by fryingpan136 on Dec 10, 2010 5:25 PM PST reply actions  

Slumping

The team is slumping and confused – everyone on this squad is underperforming and below their averages..Basically, no one looks good on this team at this time, and Carl Landry is no exception.

Last season, this same #24 was the most consistent King – after his first game he never scored less than 11 or more than 24, averaging around 18 ppg. Maybe the guy is injured, don’t think anyone can say for sure.

by betweentheeyes on Dec 10, 2010 10:33 PM PST reply actions  

Yeah he was considered a strong contender for Sixth Man of the Year

But he also knew his role. Adelman is WAY more consistent when it comes to minute distribution.

Perhaps he just needs to get in the groove. He was the second most efficient (efficiency ratings) player on our roster last year.

Is it possible he is internally (not necessarily outwardly noticeable) sulking from being demoted – translated into not having the passion he played with before?

To go from the second best player on the team to whatever he is now has to suck.

by convoy on Dec 11, 2010 2:36 AM PST up reply actions  

I think it comes down to two things

He needs to post up down low and his teammates need to help him out.

Carl floats to the perimeter far too often, I blame it mostly in the players moving the ball so slowly on offense that he rarely moves from his starting position in the 1-4 high. He has to take some of the responsibility though, if Dally gets low block touches then Carl has to demand them too. He just has to go down there.

His teammates also have to do a better job of helping him out. They not only rarely find anyone in the post but they also proceed to execute the standing in one place offense during a post entry. If Houston does anything really well it’s constantly moving, Landry didn’t get doubled as often in the post because Houstons players move around so much it’s impossible to bring it. If our players cut to the basket and relocated on post entries instead of watching I have to believe everyone would be more effective.

by jstnblke41 on Dec 11, 2010 4:52 AM PST via mobile reply actions  

A not-so-small-sample-size question

The Landry that we traded for was shooting 84% from the line and was grabbing 7.2 boards per 36 minutes – this in 52 games.

Landry has been here now for 48 games. He is averaging a full rebound less per 36 minutes (6.2), and he is shooting 13% worse from the line (71%).

My question is how could his changing role have such a huge impact on these per 36 stats? Free throws are free throws – you hit ‘em or you don’t. Landry ranks 8th in free throw percentage for the Kings, worse than rookie Demarcus Cousins. And unless the rebounding decline is a function of him following up his own missed shots, I don’t understand the 14% drop in rebounding. For perspective, Landry’s rebounding drop has been an even larger percentage drop than Evans’ scoring drop. For comparison, Jason Thompson has responded to his ever-changing roles by seeing his rebounding rate go up from 9.7 to 10.8.

Perhaps Landry’s back is the issue here, because he came here with the reputation of being a tough hombre. I’d hate to think that him being asked to change his role would impact him at the line or off the carom.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Dec 11, 2010 8:43 AM PST reply actions  

His free throw shooting has been the most puzzling to me

With his rebounding being the most glaring. Something isn’t right when you’ve been out rebounded by Pooh.

by outrider on Dec 11, 2010 9:03 AM PST up reply actions  

This is just my observation

But he is moving very poorly these last few weeks. He looks very slow right now, and over the last few games, is giving almost no effort on the defensive glass. There has to be a physical issue, because it can’t be that he has just stopped trying.

by MichaelMack on Dec 11, 2010 12:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Getting Aaron Brooks would help.

Even Kyle Lowry.

Geoff Petrie better make a good deal. His time’s almost up.

"Go ahead. Make my day."

by callahan on Dec 11, 2010 9:41 AM PST reply actions  

I think Petrie has 2 years left on his contract after this year.

Petrie knows what he is doing . Team management is waiting to sign big free agent contracts untill after the new cba.

by 9K1NGS6 on Dec 11, 2010 10:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Good luck on that. Trouble is the good free agents don't want to Sactown.

Still, one has to take a shot when there’s Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Gilbert Arenas, Kirk Hinrich, Andre Miller and Tony Parker.

I wasn’t too sure on Jeff Teague even though he looks good. JT for Teague could still be in the works as Teague played tonight. Let’s see if he gets some run now that JT is starting and playing well.

"Go ahead. Make my day."

by callahan on Dec 11, 2010 7:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Why thank you darlin'.

It was rumor that Houston and Petrie were talking again.

"Go ahead. Make my day."

by callahan on Dec 11, 2010 7:19 PM PST up reply actions  

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