Petrie, what do you say?
by nerdninja on Dec 18, 2010 12:47 AM PST
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Everyone is shifting toward the fire Westphal, and I am aditidly one of them, but it's hard to take a honest look at the struggles of this team without placing a lot of blame on the one who assembled the players, Geoff Petrie.
He has a gotten a huge pass it seems to me over the downward decent of this franchise, very few seem to place blame on him when a coach doesn't work and just as commonly a trade is heavily one sided against us. Now true the Malloofs play a part in both the hiring of coaches and probably telling Petrie to shed salary. Just the same Petrie should be held accountable for some of the bad decisions that are made.
One thing I will give him is that he does make solid draft choices. I will never questions his ability in that area only having the occasional whiff (Quincy Douby) among a long line of success. But his ability to sign free agents along with his recent trend of bad trades are what worry me most.
So lets look at his offseason signings the last few years :
2005 : Signed Shariff Adul-Rahim to a contract. Worth noting that the Nets recinded their offer after getting results on his knee. The very knee that forced him into retirement and made him one of the highest paid assistants in the league as he coached his player contract off before becoming an assitant general manger this year. Not a good signing in terms of production on the court.
2006 : NA
2007 : Beno Udrich was an awesome signing having a great year. He was signed to a fairly substantial contract only to have a terrible year. He turned it around again and had a nice year last year under Westphal. I'm uncertain how to judge him this season as he seems to be one of our most reliable scorers and one of our worst defenders. Like many free agent signings, Beno was signed for way more than what he was actually worth, but it could have been worse I guess. An 'Okay' signing in my book.
2009: Sean May, Imu Udoka, Desmond Mason : None of these guys stuck with the team and none were major risks. So who cares
2010 : Antione Wright and Pooh Jeter. Again no major free agent signings. Wright was a complete failure and Jeter looks like he may end up being something. Kind of reminds me of the way I felt about Price when he played here before moving on to Utah.
Here's of the two major problem area, trades. This gets ugly!
2004 : Christie for Mobley : I could see what Petrie was thinking at the time, but you trade the best defender on the team for another shooter. It did not work out well.
Webber for Williamson, Thomas, and Skinner. This was a terrible trade. It was said at the time it was for slarly cap relief but we carried Thomas (who did not pay) for a LONG time. Philly was done with Webber's contract long before we were done paying on the contracts we got back. Webber was the star of the city and we got not even a marginal starter back. Williamson ended up being the best piece and he was a decent 8th or 9th man off the bench for a season or two. Webber did not fare well in Philly, but Philly won this trade definately.
2005 : Bobby Jackson traded for Bonzi Wells. Hindsight is always 20/20 but Bobby Jackson was slowing down and coming off of an injury plagued season. Bonzi was a questionable character but had some talent. I think this trade marked the begining of fans really tuning off the team. Bonzi played a year here and had a lot of people wanting him back after their brief playoff run.
05-06 : Peja for Artest : This trade was a toss up for me. Peja was not going to carry the load for our team and we needed a change. Ron got us in the playoffs the first year and with Bonzi and Martin coming into his own we had a fun 1st round loss to the Spurs. In hindsight maybe we would have been better off blowing the thing up that year, but I can't fault Petrie for trying to salvage the season. They were at least trying to make a trade to win at this time.
07-08 : Bibby for 2nd round pick and four crappy players none who stuck with the team past that season. Bibby still starts at point for a playoff bound decent Hawks team, so at least Bibby won here. This was one of the salary cap moves that plagues all of our trades to this date. So the team succeeded in cutting salary but we gave away a decent player for nothing and thus got worse for to this date no forseeable gain (because we didn't use the money that was freed to this date). For a starting point guard with playoff success you would think we could get a 1st round pick somewhere right? Terrible trade.
08-09 : Ron Artest for Donte' Green and Omri Caspi (it was a draft pick that became him) : I'm undecided on this trade. Donte' and Casspi could go either way but at least we got value for this trade instead of crap and a 2nd round pick.
09 : Brad Miller and John Salmons to Chicago for junk (ultimately Nocioni). A huge salary dump where we attached a decent wing in Salmons to rid ourselves of Miller's contract and be stuck with Nocioni's contract until another crappy trade made later. It did ultimately clear cap space, but for what? Miller and Salmons contract ended last season and we still had to deal Nociani's contract away. So in the end what did it achieve other than saying to the fan base, we don't want to spend money on players? We got nothing back of value to this team (other than a higher draft pick I guess because this trade made us even worse).
Martin for Landry : Here's where we really start getting spanked on these trades. Landry is undersized PF (sounds like Thomas part 2) that was a decent 6th man in Houston. We trade one of the most efficient scorers and outside shooting threats on our team (and I do recognize the injury history) for a bench guy and nothing more. Shocking that Martin is a starting SG and one of the leagues leading scorers and Landry is a bench player, undersized PF that can't rebound. Hmmm, shocking. This was a terrible trade. Again we shed some long term money that has not been spent but in return weaken the talent base of an already young team. Terrible trade.
2010 : Hawes and Nocioni for Dalembert : And again we trade a young guy that played well the second half of last season so we can get rid of salary for a guy eceryone from Philly couldn't wait to get rid of. Now we have an expiring contract sitting on our bench while Hawes improves each month over in Philly. We were already one of the lowest payroll teams in the league by this point, so why go further? The Maloofs have already said they will not spend money until the new CBA, because they are hoping they strangle players salaries because ultimately they don't/can't spend the money.
So overall we spent the last 6 years making moves that decreased our talent level so the owners could save money, and now we are the worst team in the league and everyone scratches their heads as to why the arena is not full. Sure it's the economy but it's also we've witnessed what this team has been about and it hasn't been about putting a winning team on the floor, at least if you look at the trades.
Even if you have to salary dump, Petrie could have squeezed something more out of those trades the last few years. And the last few trades are just embarressing. Petrie got schooled in the Martin and Hawes trades for sure.
But lastly Petire is also in charge of hiring coaches and without going over each one, he has not been good at getting a decent coach. I know he is working on a budget but the recent history is terrible. Petrie's only success came with Adleman, and Petrie's success stopped when Adleman left. Petrie's luck with ducking the blame will run out soon. My suggestion is Woodson for longterm. I think he's a guy that will get it done and his track record with the Hawks shows as much. Plus he has a connection with this team and area. It's a simple and easy fit. Pay the money and get it done.
If Petrie doesn't get it done this upcoming off-season it's time to pull the plug on him too. Although he brought Sacramento it's only taste at success earlier this decade he has also played a big part in it's horrible downfall. I like some of the pieces we have in place in Tyreke and DMC. But we need to find some leadership to get it all in place. Letting the players continue on and develop bad habits is not a way to run a team, especially if it's to save a few bucks. You have the lowest payroll in the NBA, firing the lowest paid coach should not kill your bank account.
Fix this starting now Petrie before it's too late!
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
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I'll agree with you on a few and do think Petrie deserves some blame for the current team
by jstnblke41 on Dec 18, 2010 1:29 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Whoops
But I think a lot of those trades looked real good at the time. The Webb trade was a bummer but seemed decent from a basketball standpoint and I certainly don’t think he got schooled in the Hawes trade.
I will buy the Kevin Martin trade as being a miss though. I do think he needed to go, but I would have rather tried to get an older expiring player who was better or a package instead of Landry, whom I don’t think is a good player for his position in comparison to Martin.
It seems like Petrie waited too long to rebuild and when it was time to blow it up he really didn’t know how. I think he certainly has embraced the youth movement now (probably too much) but I think there could be an argument made that he didn’t know which direction to go after 08 and is just now getting on the road he wants.
by jstnblke41 on Dec 18, 2010 1:36 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
still living in past?get over it
enjoy the drama for a few more years my friend for the kings will be moving.i will not like this either but no great player wants to come and a coach like jeff van gundy laughs at us.enjoy the time we have a nba team.
by cowboyron96@yahoo.com on Dec 18, 2010 8:49 PM PST up reply actions
Obviously an expert at being pointed and laughed at.
Tell your wife I said hello.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
The KMart trade
is only a miss because we now have DMC and JT playing decent and KMart has yet to get hurt. PLUS we tried the KMart/Evans back court and it didn’t work. And we needed low post scoring. NOw that JT/DMC and holding down the block and Carl is not getting constant touches we’re bitching about this trade? Come on, Carl was great for us last season we can’t now bitch about how we should have never made the KMart trade. We can’t have it both ways. If JT as playing like this last season 85% chance we don’t trade KMart.
Can’t blame Petre for trading a guy who only plays 60 games a season, who is soft and can play defense a little bit better than Beno. I sand by that trade and i bet if we drafted A guard instead of DMC no one would be bitching about Carl because it would be Carl and JT and thats all we would have down there. And u wanna talk about trade for Noc? He is a good player! Though not on the kings, he is a tough player who can score and rebound. Again his time with the kinds isn’t the best example of it, but maybe we were asking too much of him? Maybwe we wanted his role to be greater than what he could/can handle.
AND u wanna talk about soft? Talk about HAWES! Sam has no offense game at all, but you know what he can change shots and rebound. At least Sammie knows what his limitations are! HAWES a 7 footer who got 4 rebounds when he played 30 min (if we were lucky he got ) Plus Sammies contract is done at the end of this year.
If our team has won more than 5 games non of this fire him fire him business wouldn’t be going on, is it possible, just a little bit that Reke, Greene, Casspi, Top Hat all are a littl ebit too confertable? I mean how much better has reke gotten? Still can’t go left still cant shoot. Greene will give you 20 pts one night then 3 pts the next, Casspi, same as greene, Top Hat getting a few touches a game because JT and DMC are in there getting their touches or reke decides to drive on the left side dribbling with his right hand and not finishing or pulling up fade away 3 pointers….I think our team just needs to grow up, and there isn’t much u can do about that…only time will help
I really disagree about Carl
He’s a nice player, but for his position the things that he does don’t give him a ton of value. He can score, although for us he’s been incredibly inconsistent in that area, but his defense and rebounding make him a true liability at the position. Martin had his faults but no one could argue he’s a very good starting NBA player while Landry is a flawed player who’s best role is off the bench.
I didn’t like the trade when it happened and in hindsight to me it’s turned out to be a loss (unless we get something nice for him in a trade which I’m not holding my breath over). I know a lot of you disagree with this, but Im having trouble supporting the KMart trade from any angle aside from cap relief.
by jstnblke41 on Dec 18, 2010 9:32 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
It's hard for me to disagree with a lot of this
but at the same time Petrie still works for the Maloofs & they praise Petrie every chance they get. He must be doing his job to them.
I believe the Maloofs instructed him to cut payroll at all costs.
When the Maloofs were adamant about hiring the Monarchs coach Petrie had to scramble to push for someone(anyone!) else which led to Eric Musselman. In my opinion Musselman is a great basketball mind but couldn’t command the respect of vets like Artest, Bibby, & Miller. Which makes him better suited in an assistant coach/teacher type role. Similar to the job he has now.
The Theus hire was all on the Maloofs. Petrie wanted Scotty Brooks(who went on to have great success in OKC) but the Maloofs wanted to add a guy who was a popular figure in New Mexico basketball at the time after having a few good seasons a New Mexico state. He was also a coaching student of Rick Pitino who the Maloofs seem to like.
(sigh) Then the Maloofs tell Petrie “We now want an experienced head coach with prior NBA success. We’ll stay of it this time & let you hire who you think is right. We will no longer meddle in the process. Oh by the way you have to somehow convince this experienced successful NBA veteran coach to take the lowest coaching salary in the league, to coach the worst team in the NBA, under owners who have no intention on spending any money on the team anytime in the near future” In the wise words of our former franchise hero “good luck”
There is plenty of blame to go around here. Petrie & Westphal certainly deserve some of it but for me it starts at the top. Some say money is the root of all evil well in this case it certainly has played a roll to the evil we see on the court every night & that is on the Maloofs first & foremost.
I love beating dead horses.
by allbenji's on Dec 18, 2010 8:39 AM PST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Then it's Petrie's fault for not convincing the Maloofs they were making a mistake.
Ultimately, it’s Petrie’s job to advocate for his owners – and to convince them when they are making bad decisions. Not having done so successfully, the fault for the coaching carousel lands with Petrie IMO.
You could be the best Kirby salesman in the world
but if I am losing money left & right in all of my bussinesses I’m not buying your damn Kirby. No matter how great the damn vacuum is.
I love beating dead horses.
Nice post
Of course, here is the part that is really not fair and balanced about the post – you pick up Petrie’s career as the team is coming out of the tremendous period that it had earlier in the decade, as though eight straight playoff appearances never happened. As I noted in my recent post, the Kings come out better than average if you go back to the beginning of the decade.
Noting the Webber trade as an example, at the time it was wise thinking. Move the unmoveable contract for three smaller pieces, and rid the franchise of the Webber/Peja rift at the same time. Simply, the two could not remain here together, and Webber was damaged goods. Petrie did the best that he could with the hand that he had been dealt.
Noting the Bibby trade, while it was a salary dump, it allowed us to keep Miller and Artest and pay Martin. Given the price, age, and talent levels of all of these players, it was the right move. Don’t trade Bibby and we don’t extend Martin. It was the smart money move.
Miller/Salmons was the pure salary dump that this team needed to finally get headed in the complete rebuild directtion. For crying out loud, the fan base was screaming for this to happen. If anything, it didn’t happen quickly enough.
Spencer Hawes has not scored 20 points in a game this year, and he has achieved double digit rebounds 3 times. He is averaging 7.6/5.4 for the season, less than Cousins & Thompson. For comparison, In exchange, we got rid of Nocioni’s contract.
I agree 100% that the Kings are in a bad way right now. I agree that as the GM, Geoff Petrie is accountable and responsible. But if you are going to be fair, you need to tell the whole story. Petrie did a magnificent jobe of building a championship caliber club here. Through age and injury that version ran its course, and over the past few years has been torn down, and we are now seeing the beginning of the rebuild. To “pull the plug” on him at this point would not only be unfair, but it would also be foolish.
And 1 – Replace Petrie with whom? Who comes in and changes the fact that as a GM, you will be operating within the confines of the tight budget of a small market in need of a new arena? I’ve seen Kevin Pritchard named before – Pritchard’s reign in Portland did not see the Blazers win a single round in the playoffs, in spite of the deep pockets of Paul Allen. If Sam Presti or R.C. Buford wants to relocate to Sacramento, I would at least listen. Other than that, I’m not really sure what is to be gained by handing Petrie his walking papers.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Dec 18, 2010 10:47 AM PST reply actions 5 recs
Nailed it. Furthermore...
DC was my favorite player, but even in his limited tenure here, we, BY FAR, got the better end of that deal. Did he play more than a handful of games after the trade?
I could go on and on, but when I start reading about how awesome Spence Hawes was getting to be, I know the author is wearing whatever shade of glasses is 1000 past rose-colored.
I’m not really clever or insightful enough to know if Petrie is making the correct moves as we watch in real time. I do, however, know enough to recognize that he can hardly be expected to build a great roster while being obligated to make sure that the team doesn’t drop below the team-salary minimum. Does anyone believe that if Petrie was authorized to lay out another $30 mil, that he couldn’t somehow manage to improve the Kings?
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
I realized he was past 1000 rose colored glasses
when he said he was undecided on Artest for BJax, Greene and the pick that became Casspi.
What? So we trade a player in the final year of his contract, who was not going to stay here, who no other team seemed willing to trade for for an expiring contract and two young players who look like they have a future in the league and that goes in the undecided pile?
Wow.
Petrie's 1st 3 years
39-43 in 95-96.
34-48 in 96-97.
27-55 in 97-98.
That’s a regression in each of his first three years. I wonder how many people would have been calling for his head before he had the opportunity to put together the team that went on to make eight straight playoff appearances.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
We need to fire that idiot retroactively.
I also think maybe we shouldn’t waste all of that time and money impeaching Bill Clinton
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
That's good
There is actually a lot parallels between that era and now: ownership issues, financial instability and a new CBA on the horizon. I’d say the only difference back than was Kings fans were conditioned to always having a bad team.
N.A.A.S.T.
I don't discount his job of putting together the winning team....
But how many years does that buy him from making bad moves. I will also go back to the fact his only winning years are with Adleman as coach. I know it came together all at once, but even at the end Adleman got a lot from his teams (and continues to do so in Houston). So how much was Petrie and how much was Adleman? I remember even during injuries Adleman kept the team playing great basketball. That’s not the case anymore.
I don’t place all the blame on the Maloofs for the coaching hires of the last five years either, Petrie’s name are on those too.
My point about many of the trades are they were not made to improve the team. They are all about money (or the act of saving money). Spencer Hawes has been improving month to month while Dalembert is getting reduced minutes and production month to month. At the end of the year we will look back on this trade and know that it stunk. That is not to say Hawes will be an all star, but he will be a solid post presence. And that is not to say I had a problem with trading him if you wanted to put all your chips in the DMC and Thompson bandwagon I guess, but for a 21 year old 7 footer with skill we could have addressed the teams needs in shooting at least, right?
The trades of Bibby, Webber, Bibby, ect were all made because we gave them the rediculous contracts in the first place. We have not been good negotiators when it comes to signing players over the last decade to say the least, that includes our own players in addition to free agents.
Dallas was an upstart at the same time as our team and they’ve maintained, in fact a lot of teams have gone through smaller loosing windows and have rebounded over the decade. We’ve been down for quite some time now. How much patience do we show?
I am not suggesting show Petrie the door this year, but if the team doesn’t make major progress next year I think it will be time to go a different direction. All the chips are lined up for him to do basically whatever he wants in terms of trades and signings. I fear at the beginning of next year that the roster won’t look that much different and all that “we’re doing trades for cap flexibility”. In fact I am starting to think the Maloofs want the new CBA to lower the cap and give them an out from spending any money. It would be a perfect excuse would it not?
Ok
1 – Moves have been about rebuilding, but jettisoning veterans (sometimes with terrible attitudes) & gaining cap space. Yeah, we are bad this year, but we have good, young talent and a ton of cap flexibility. We are no stuck in some hopeless morass.
2 – Dallas has not lost its superstar (Nowitzki) so it hasn’t had to rebuild. If Webber was still healthy and playing at a MVP caliber level, our team would look much different as well. Because Nowitzki is still in his prime, Cuban has spent a boatload of money surrounding him with expensive players. You can’t discount that.
3 – How many teams have gone through significantly smaller windows? Specifically without nabbing a superstar with a Top 2 pick. Please name them.
Response
1) The moves were made without the intent of getting better so we sold players and got back less than what their value was to shed money. Talent is only good unless it develops and cap space is only good unless we use (or if you are the one paying the bills and you want a lower payroll)
2) You are correct. Cuban has made trade with the intent of winning instead of getting a lower payroll so the Mavs are still good.
3) I was thinking of the short window that Utah had when Malone and Stockton left. The small window that Portland had when they blew up their malcontent team and rebuilt. I was thinking how quickly Pheonix has retrooled a couple of times. At to a lesser extent how minimal the Lakers dip was when they split Shaq up and lost Jackson. Miami also has been aggressive abour retooling their roster as have the Magic. There are quite a few examples. And the top 2 pick doen’t mean much, look at all the failed top picks over the last decade (Kwame Brown, Darko Milicic, Greg Oden, Tyson Chandler, Jay Williams, Emeka Okafor, more busts than superstars with the top 2 picks)
Ok now
1 – The moves were not to get better for the short term, but the long term. Time will tell, but I think we are on the right path.
2 – True. And if this post were about the Maloofs v Cuban instead of about Petrie as a GM, I would agree. Cuban has been willing to have one of the Top 3 most expensive teams in the year for the last decade, the Maloofs have not. Two very different scenarios for a GM though.
3 – First, those teams had a pretty long window. Portland in particular languished for a long time. Most team’s do have to go through a cycle. The Suns really did a great job, but sort of got lucky with Nash. I would call them more the exception that proves the rule. The Lakers and Heat still had Bryant and Wade. Can’t compare teams that still have their superstar, that’s retooling, not rebuilding. And to your last point, yes, there are top picks who do not pan out, but that doesn’t answer my question about how many have rebuilt quickly without nabbing a superstar with a top 2 pick. The fact that it’s not a guarantee, doesn’t mean it’s not nearly a necessity.
I agree with you
that as the years go by, the curve of success will lessen and lessen, and eventually the sum of Petrie’s success would be overwhelmed by his failures. I think that we are still 2-3 years away from that time.
Regarding Adelman, I will give him his due. But as I will not blame the Maloofs for any of Petrie’s bad deals, I will also not diminish Petrie’s accomplishments. That is, in for a penny, in for a pound. If Petrie is responsible for the shortcomings of the current squad, then he is also responsible for the success of past squads.
Regarding Hawes, you are forgetting (or not including) that Nocioni and his contract were also jettisoned in this trade. In that respect, this trade (and the Martin trade) cannot be truly judged until that cap space is utilized. As of today, I certainly agree thath the Martin/Landry deal is a bad deal. If the Kings don’t use the cap space by the other side of the new CBA, it will continue to be a bad deal. The Hawes deal is a non-deal at worst at this point, as Hawes is basically doing in Philly what he did here – a couple of good games here and there to tantalize, but an overall performance that lacks substance and consistency. Hawes has played well for the past 10 days, but prior to that he was averaging about 6 and 4? Perhaps we could wait for Spencer to show sustained performance for the first time in his four year career before we judge that trade as a disaster?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Don’t trade Bibby and we don’t extend Martin
Not true 214. Kevin Martin was extended already. What doing that deal did, essentially, was allow the Kings to pay Martin AND Beno. Bibby wanted out and the Kings wanted a guy who can man the PG spot (or something like it).
Bibby was also hurt much of the 07 08 season and fans weren’t going to Arco as much as they had in previous years. The franchise never had much reason to keep Bibby.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I don't think that is correct
They had already extended Martin, but the extension did not kick in until the year that Bibby was dealt. As luxury tax is based on year-end numbers, Bibby needed to be dealt to avoid the tax. Beno’s deal came the summer after Bibby was dealt. I’m not 100% certain on this, but that is my recollection.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
That's n ot true.
You said that Martin hadn’t been extended yet. HIs extension hadn’t kicked in; perhaps I just misunderstood your point. On that point. you’re correct the “new” contract hadn’t happened yet.
However, the Kings weren’t on the hook to pay lux tax in 07-08. Dealing Bibby got them out of the tax for 08-09 though.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
And yes Beno signed the MLE in the 08 summer; Bibby was dealt in Feb 08.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Thanks for the clarification
I think you helped make sense of what I was trying to convey.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I agreed with what you were trying to say; not what I saw you saying.
Just another semantic argument. Overall you stated all the important stuff I noted from the skimming of the fanpost.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Looking back I was responding to the "pay Martin" bit.
Clearly I need to learn how to read.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
On the Martin trade
I think there is room for an earnest debate on whether that trade looks bad because of talent or coaching.
Last year before the trade, KMart was averaging: 19 points and 4 rbs on 39% shooting.
Last year before the trade, Landry was averaging: 16 points and 5.5 rbs on 55% shooting
So did KMart rapidly improve and Landry forget how to play basketball? Or is it possible the common theme here is Adelman getting the best out of his players and Westphal doing the opposite?
Which is why I want to replace Westphal in the offseason
But Petrie is one of the better GMs in the league in my eyes. I’d prefer to let him continue steering this ship for the foreseeable future.
There is no disputing history. It's 20-20.
Some were good moves at the time (Peja for Artest) that just didn’t work out. Others (Martin for Landry) I didn’t agree with at the time. As for coaching choices, I have to admit I expected way more out of Westphal. The others seemed doomed to fail from the beginning. The one constant in all of these moves has been that $$$$$$$$s were the motivation. I’ve said it before and will say it again. You can’t build a winning or at least a competitive team without spending money. It can’t be done on the cheap, and for this I blame the Maloofs
Purveyor of Bull Plop
by SayWhat? on Dec 18, 2010 2:10 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
This fanpost frustrated me greatly
My personaly favorite is the selective memory loss of the fact that Petrie signed Salmons instead of overpaying for Bonzi yet magically Salmons pops up in the Chicago trade.
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
An observation that I should have added to the original post
I think some GM and coaches just mix well together and when they are seperated it does not go well. I think that’s the case with Petrie and Adleman. Petrie’s Kings teams have not done well without Adleman in place. That is simple fact. Even the last year Adleman was here he got an average team into the playoffs and made it a series against a great Spurs team.
I think Adleman lucked out in Houston. Adleman’s experience in Golden State without a compatible GM did not go well for him either.
Petrie desperately needs to find that new coach that will correctly utilize the type of players Petrie signs and drafts in a system. Westphal does not seem to have a system in place (or at least one that I can see). There is no identity to this team, so it’s very hard to figure out if they are trying to be a great low score/defensive team or a high speed offensive team. I don’t see a lot of pick and roll or basic stuff in the offense either. It seems like they wait for a guard (mainly Tyreke) to do something and kick it to a team mate. Or they pass to a post player and wait for him to do something. Not a lot of team basketball is played in long spurts of the game.
With that in mind maybe the perfect match would be long time Adleman assitant Turner as head coach. Not a flashy name but just maybe he’s the guy that will know the key to using Petrie’s choice in talent? Just a thought.
I agree with the premise
But honestly, if Adelman returned today it would not make the current Kings squad into anything closely resembling a playoff contender. I agree 100% that the Kings would be better with Adelman, but what you have overlooked in your latest observation is the level of talent that Petrie/Adelman had on their roster, as opposed to the talent level that has been on this squad the past couple of years.
Again, I agree that there was a good symmetry between Adelman and Petrie that has not really existed with Musselman, Theus, Natt or Westphal. But it is difficult to quantify the impact, due to the huge disparity in player talent.
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by section214 on Dec 19, 2010 10:11 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Adelman had essentially the same team that Musselamn failed miserably with.
I have not overlooked the winning talent they had together, but given the same team in Adelman’s last year and Mussleman’s first year, Adelman did a lot more with it getting us the 8th spot and giving the Spurs a series before falling.
And I completely disagree with the premise that Adelman would not get this squad close to the playoffs. I think a coach of Adelman’s quality could get this bunch a lot closer to the playoffs than anyone would imagine. It’s all conjecture as we’ll never know for sure, but having a quality coach in this league makes a huge difference. I know one thing for sure, Adelman would have the younger players a lot further along than they are now by just using his sytem.
Good point
But let me ask you this – The Kings were 18-26 before they traded Peja for Artest. Had they not traded for Artest and then missed the playoffs, would the fault have been a sudden disconnect between Adelman and Petrie?
And you may be right about Adelman’s influence on this young squad. But as he historically has not played and developed youngsters, it would be a first for him. I agree that he is totally capable and would likely succeed to whatever level this current batch of talent would allow, but it would certainly be new ground for him. I disagree that he could get this squad close to the playoffs.
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I don't get the claim he didn't develop youngsters?
He coached Jason Williams during his best succes as a rookie for the Kings. He developed Peja into what he became and his best success. What about Hedo? You can go back to Portland where he took young players there too (but I know that is really going back a few decades). So let’s look at Houston where he has developed Brooks, and look at all the new names taking starting or promary back up positions with that team (Scola, Hayes, Lowry, and yes, even our own Carl Landry). Adelman develops talent the right way.
I will admit with this Kings team there are no vetern leaders he could use until the younger players are ready (A complaint about the structure of this team I made in an earlier post) but I think based on how Adelman has done with young players I would feel really good about his chances of getting a lot out of that youth.
Well,
if you read SBN’s “The Dream Shake,” they are of the opinion that Adelman prefers not to play youth and does not develop same. Their current case in point is Jordan Hill. Kings fans would have pointed to Gerald Wallace as a prime example. It is probably more fair to say that Adelman prefers to go with veteran talent, but will go with and develop youth when necessary. And in that regard, he is probably like most coaches.
Back to my question, when the Kings were 18-26, was there a disconnect between Petrie and Adelman that evaporated once Ron Artest arrived? Again, I’m not arguing that Adelman is not a far superior coach to any of the guys that have followed – he certainly is. But with all of his brilliance, I don’t see him making a playoff contender out of the current roster. And I don’t see why a small market team trying to make ends meet would pay roughly $7 million per for a coach to win 25-35 games. I believe that you are spot on when it comes to bringing that type of coach in, but only after the Kings have improved the talent level of their roster. My hope would be that this would occur shortly after the new CBA is in place.
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That is two examples
to the many I posted. And to the Gerald Wallace example, there were many superior players in front of him at the time on a contending team, no reason to go with youth at that point.
The Kings were 18-26 following a series of injuries and a tough streak of games. Ron arrived as Wells got healthy along with others and the schedule shifted more to out favor. Even if the team had stayed the course I bet Adelman would have had the team around .500 which would have been an 8th seed in the west at the time.
Again, we’ll just have to disagree. I think if Adelman were coach we would be closer to .500 ball right now than 4 wins. We’ll never be able to prove it one way or another. I would side with Adelman’s track record though.
All in all,
I think that we agree more than we disagree – we just don’t see eye to eye on the amount of impact that Adelman would have on the current squad. I sure do respect your take, though. Lot’s of good stuff there.
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I 2nd that.
Also fun having a discussion with intelligent basketball fans. All we want is to have a team that’s winning. Hopefully it happens for us soon.
The key to so much of this agita is that everyone has a very different idea of the definition of "soon."
I looked at the state of the team in Spring 2009, and figured there was no way this team sniffed playoffs before 2012. I’m hopeful, but it’s entirely dependent on a real impact free agent signing, trade, or both.
The team, as it exists, and with only minor changes, couldn’t go .500 with anyone coaching it.
It’s your right to complain, and tempting when the team has bad quarters and games. I just don’t see the point of it, unless you truly, truly believe this is a playoff roster. I simply don’t understand where people get that idea, that’s all.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
It's not about making the playoffs this year.....
To me it was about building upon last year and seeing improvement and almost across the board I’d say it’s worse. That’s where the dissappointment comes. If we finish the year with 17 wins (which is what we’re on pace for, or worse) then it’s a step back in my opinion. I was hoping that the team might finish with 30 wins, while looking better as the year went on. Then if the Maloofs hold true to their word make some major moves with the beloved cap space in the off-season.
Now mind you this all might still happen, but realistically it doesn’t look like it. Looks like it might be more of the same. A new coach, the team selling us on youth and then using youth as an excuse when it looses (when they knew going in we needed shooting a vet leadership). Plus I am growing more skeptical of the Maloofs actually using the cap space. It won’t be long before we start hearing how the new CBA lowered the cap making spending the money harder, plus they need to reup the youth.
That is kind of pesimistic but it seems they are still making moves all about money (including the recent trade with Houston, however small it is). I’d love to see them make aggresive moves with the intent on winning at some point.
Well, that's a horse of a different color.
If you want to get into the Maloofs locking up the safe in regard to spending, then you’ll see no argument from me. But that’s hardly the same issue as suggesting that Petrie is the largest problem in regard to the state of the franchise.
I’d also like to point out, as we get farther and farther from the Adelman firing, that it was entirely orchestrated by ownership, and not the GM. They didn’t appreciate the fact that Adelman didn’t want to pal around after work, and we ended up with a guy whose first notable act was to get caught drunk trying to get home after work.
Petrie could have fallen on his sword and quit rather than firing Adelman, but it wouldn’t have made any difference. We’d probably have just ended up with Reggie Theus two years sooner.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
Revisionist History
One, Adelman wasn’t fired. His contract was up. Two, “palling around after work” was actually “doing more work within the community”. And three, if Petrie wasn’t onboard with it, why did he sign his subsequent contract extension? Seems like a pretty big deal from the standpoint of having meddling ownership interfering with your work.
I know that doesn’t fit your “the Maloofs are the devil” theme right?
Plus a lot of the animosity
was on Adelman’s side. He was bent out of shape over the Maloofs trying to get Phil Jackson. I never really heard anything about the community work, but I know the relationship between management and Adleman went bad (which sucks for us).
The Phil Jackson point is a good one, actually.
Except that if Adelman was bent out of shape because his bosses were, in a none-too-subtle manner, attempting to woo his replacement, and doing it through the media, to a large degree…
Can you blame the guy?
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
The Maloofs aren't the devil. Ed Hardy is the devil.
That could explain any confusion.
I don’t know if you’ve ever worked under a contract before. But if you have, and can explain to me how finding yourself without a paycheck because your deal was not renewed is any different in the harsh light of day than is being fired, I would enjoy learning the distinction.
Result: Ownership lets coach go. The Musselman/Theus/Natt/Westphal era can finally begin.
Assuming Adelman’s contract didn’t stipulate a certain amount of “community service” by the signee, if he didn’t feel like going to an elementary school to shake hands with honor students, that’s a pretty stupid reason to not re-sign the most successful coach in franchise history. One would think the kind of lawyers generally retained by billionaires could easily add a clause of this sort to any new contract.
Adelman not being the head coach is 100% on the owners, and if you feel like that makes them “the devil,” it’s your right to feel that way. I just think it makes them bad at the basketball business, to let their personal feelings get in the way of making hiring decisions.
My point, getting back to it, Petrie really had no say in the fact that Adelman was let go.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
Ed Hardy IS the devil
But I digress. Yes, I have worked on contract before, and IIRC there was an ending date for that contract. So I was not without a paycheck at the end of said contract because I was prepared, based on the end date of the contract.
And comparing real life employment to that of an NBA head coach is teh funneyz.
My point, getting back to it, Petrie really had no say in the fact that Adelman was let go.
I highly doubt that.
I understand what you're saying, but this isn't the same thing.
In legit businesses, like the one you work in, contracts are generally used to gain the services of people who aren’t technically employees.
In sports and entertainment, people are hired by the company, under the terms of a contract, salary, length of time, etc. If you are doing a good job, and your employer tells you at renewal time, “Oh, by the way, we don’t really want you around any more,” that’s a little different, when you generally see these types of contracts renewed. Not renewing/extending = firing.
But I ask this earnestly, whose decision do you think it was to not renew Adelman?
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
I think it was a decision made by Kings management
Tell me this, do you really think the Maloofs didn’t allow Petrie to have ANY input on whether to negotiate a new contract for Adelman?
If so, isn’t it a stretch to believe that Petrie would sign his next contract extension – with an employer who wouldn’t accept his opinion on one of the pivotal decisions made by the franchise in the last decade?
My belief is that Petrie was onboard with the decision, although it may not have been his preferred course of action.
Ultimately, if Petrie thought that losing Adelman was a disastrous move for the franchise, it was his job to prevail upon the Maloofs to bring him back.
Additionally
Do you really think Adelman expected a renewal? Apparently, his relationship with the Maloofs was strained, and his contract was expiring.
I don’t know about you, but any person of minimal intelligence probably wouldn’t assume he had 100% job security in that situation.
Admittedly, 8 playoff appearances in a row doesn't make him Jerry Sloan.
Do you think Sloan has a reasonable expectation that he’s got job security, or is Utah ownership also flighty, over-emotional, and prone to hyperbole?
Allow me to rephrase: Who do you feel initiated the idea that Adelman had to go? Ownership, or management?
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
I don't get what difference this all makes
But I think Petrie saw the giant rift between the owners and Adleman and knew it wasn’t going to work out. Heck, they could have given Adelman an offer only to have him reject it anyway. I think both Adleman and the Maloofs were wrong with some of what they did and Petrie was stuck in the middle.
Whatever the case may be we are the worst team in the league yet again (even worse than KAHN and the Timberwolves!). So what now?
I’d love to see the Maloofs basically tell Petrie, do whatever you need to do to make us good. No more trades to collect money or cut salary. I wonder what Petrie might be able to pull off if he was given free reign. Last time he had that he stole Webber from Washington. I know he probably has his eye on a few players he could make the move for. But I still contend it is all for naught if Westphal is our coach. We need a legitimate winner as a head coach.
"We need a legitimate winner as a head coach."
Again: Who?
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
MY top two candidates are
Elston Turner if you want to give a experienced assistant their first shot (plus he’s a longtime Adleman assistant, might be the perfect match with Petrie) or Mike Woodson if you want an experienced coach. I think he did a great job with the Hawks in helping turn that franchise around.
You would have loved Mike Woodson's first 3 1/2 years on the job.
He won a whole lot of games “developing” the youth. *
- Note: This is not a complaint about Mike Woodson.
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Andy, looking back on it now, I would love to have kept Adelman instead of enduring Musseltheusnattphal
And Jerry Sloan’s tenure with Utah is an aberration in the NBA.
Ownership IS part of management in my opinion. There isn’t a business I’m aware of where the owners are 100% hands off when it comes to spending their money and hiring for the key positions in a company. So your question is really irrelevant IMO.
The questions are – was Petrie allowed to offer input? Did Petrie feel strongly that Adelman should stay? If Petrie did feel strongly, did he attempt to make the Maloofs aware he felt it was a huge mistake? If Petrie did make the attempt, and the Maloofs were like “screw you Geoff, we’re doing this” – why would he sign an extension?
I think this decision was probably like many decisions…discussed, argued, debated – and ultimately agreed upon by the group as the proper course of action.
A failure as a result of groupthink?
That’s unpossible.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
by andy sims on Dec 20, 2010 6:26 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
This post was not
suggesting Petrie was the main problem. I was trying to point out that he shoulder shoulder some of the blame for the state of this franchise. It seems that in Sacramento people like to lay the blame for all our troubles at the feet of who ever is coach and the owners. I think the blame should be evenly split by all parties. This post was dedicated to calling out Petrie’s shortcomings, but I have posted previous posts about Westphal and other players. I have also posted about what concerns me about the owbership as well.
Nice thread, this is what makes StR so much fun
/applause to all
by betweentheeyes on Dec 19, 2010 11:21 AM PST reply actions
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