Assessing the Kings by Their Own Standards
Rob Mahoney evaluates the Kings based on Paul Westphal's stated criteria.
A scathing, but fair, assessment.
over 1 year ago
Exhibit G
115 comments
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Comments
I do think this is funny but at the same time ... eh.
Basically how I felt with the whole Kahn/Webber thing and Kueter’s comments about Kevin Martin’s free throws.
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
I want to be pissed
but I’ve got nothing I can argue with.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
My question is
How does this affect our views on Westphal? Obviously, by his comments, he has a good goal and know what he wants his players to achieve, so this idea that he has no clue what he is doing is out of the window. However, are his goals not reaching the court because he doesn’t know how to communicate them to his players, or do his players not know how to convey them into good play, or is it both?
Keep Jason Thompson out of the damn fruit salad!
by prowseinthehouse on Dec 20, 2010 11:39 AM PST reply actions
He's running a system
but he doesn’t have the personnell for it to be consistently effective. The floor spacing for example, is a great idea, considering we’re built around guys like Tyreke and DeMarcus, who live inside. But we don’t have the kind of guys who can consistently knock down the open three.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
by Aykis16 on Dec 20, 2010 11:46 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The problem with this...
We do have a couple of guys that can knock down shots from the 3 pt line, but they don’t play to that strength. It isn’t like PW even tries to run the inside out game like Orlando. They don’t penetrate and then kick it back out. Hardly at all.
I would add Donte’ to the Cisco and Casspi list of shooters, but the fact that they are not even trying, that I can see, to do what PW states as his goal is pretty damning IMO. It is really just all inside inside – not inside out.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Maybe that is what we have been doing??
We only have the personnel to take it inside, and not have good inside-out movement.
He is trying to
by spacing the floor for the guys who do well there. The reality is this team is not very good, so it doesn’t work out most of the time and then Tyreke or DMC have to create something 1 on 1.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
by Aykis16 on Dec 20, 2010 12:25 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Tyreke & DMC aren't good enough in their own games to take the team places when the offense breaks down either.
That’s the other point.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Dec 20, 2010 1:14 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Someday should be sooner than later.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm still optimistic about him
I like that more often than not we seem to at least be in the position to blow a game in the second half. Someone mentioned earlier about needing a 3rd option on offense. I think that is what we are really seeing when the defense tightens up.
That was me I believe
unfortunately so far neither Casspi or Donte have come along as well as we hoped as that outside threat / 3rd option and Landry is having a bad year du to his back problem or whatever.
On Casspi I think part of the problem is that they’re not getting the ball to him on time or often enough when he’s open for that three. Tyreke is the biggest culprit on not getting it to him on time in my eyes.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Dec 20, 2010 11:55 AM PST up reply actions
I think Casspi
and for that matter DMC do better when they have longer runs on the floor, they need to feel the game and get into the flow. Peja was this way. I think most players are. Bobby Jackson was quite obviously not and could wake up from a deep sleep and still hit his first shot. I still think PW has to pick guys and stick with them, game after game.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
to quote coach green
they are who we thought they were.
I’d like to see this same evaluation again after the all-star break. He called Cousins an under performer, but I think that is a bit unfair at this point in his career. Both he and JT have improved in just the past couple of weeks.
The stuff about the other players we pretty much knew already.
Kind of a joke coming from a NY writer considering
howbad the Knicks are/were for soooo long.
Just sayin’.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
Tempted to respond to this one
Can you confirm whether or not I’m be falling into the sarchasm?
Never forget, I'm an idiot.
I was wondering the same thing
If that’s the case I think everyone and anyone here can pretty much say nothing about 95% of the league ever.
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 20, 2010 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
OK - (sigh)
point taken
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Dec 20, 2010 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
The Knicks troubles are 100% irrelevant to this well-stated analysis.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
by andy sims on Dec 20, 2010 12:05 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Most outside writers
Usually have misguided opinions of the Kings. They will mention how so-and-so has improved this year (Tyreke) or someone else is not having a good season that I generally disagree with. However, I thought this was excellent analysis by an outside writer.
The NBA: "Where 27 free throws happens"
I agree
I thought it was well written and basically explained the obvious. When you’re a bad team, your probably going to have some bad team stats as well.
Also
Rob isn’t a New York writer. He’s a Dallas Mavericks blogger actually, and like Ziller writes about the NBA as well. NYT hired him to be their NBA blogger.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
What I was gonna say.
Aykis just beat me to it.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
A very fair and objective assessment
I would say that PW has professed to running some plays, but I just don’t see enough of the inside out type. I think that given just how dominant Cousins can be in the paint we really should be setting up shooters for him to pass out when doubled. We do have some shooters and they are not getting passes from the inside out.
They seem to line the shooters up on the 3 point line on the opposite side of the court. I understand the need to get spacing, but then Cousins has to pass over every defender from the other team to hit one of them. I just think it is a bit ridiculous. Put shooters all around the arc and dare them to double Cousins. Don’t require him to pass around and swing the ball every damn time. This just gives the defenders time to get back to the perimeter.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Tough to argue with.
Although it seems to me that Mahoney is using Westphal’s words to indict Evans, which frankly, isn’t unfair. We can get into the point guard/not a point guard thing again, but does averaging 5 assists a game make you a point guard? Has the offense looked better in execution (if not resulting scores) with Jeter running it? If a more conventional and experienced point guard could be obtained, would anyone really still make the case that Evans should be running the offense?
“If,if,if…” BORING, I know. Mahoney’s point about below-average personnel is a valid one. There may be better systems to run, given the squad’s innate shortcomings, but frankly, I wouldn’t have a clue what to suggest.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
To be honest, I thought Mahoney was using Westphal's words to indict Westphal
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 20, 2010 12:12 PM PST up reply actions
I felt like that was Mahoney's intention, too.
I just felt like after I read it, there was more of a feeling that the wrench in the offensive works was being wielded by the point guard.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
That's how I read it, too.
It seemed like the unstated bottom line of the entire piece was that if Tyreke were playing well, or perhaps, a better player, then most of the Kings’ offensive woes would be nonexistent.
There’s no denying that his decision-making has been poor, particularly late in games, and that his ability to finish around the rim is nowhere near as good as last year, I’m sure because of injury.
StR Token Female
by LeaguePassAddict on Dec 20, 2010 1:01 PM PST up reply actions
Interesting fact:
Unless I’m misreading this, Tyreke is finishing slightly better at the rim than last year. Almost every other meaningful statistic or meaningful percentage is down, however, with the exception of his 3-point percentage.
It’s confusing- it seems like his finishing this year has been awful. I was pretty surprised when HT pointed this out!
Reke is getting less attempts towards the rim.
…and more mid range and long range attempts. Another reason he is struggling.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Last year...
..Reke had 8.4 attempts at the rim. This year it’s 5.2. You can tell Reke is getting to the rim less because his FTA is way down from last year. Way way down.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I wonder...
What’s the delineation between “At the rim” and “Less then 10 feet?” As I said, his finishing this year has seemed miserable. Tyreke is taking the same number of shots per game this season as last, but maybe his reduced quickness is forcing his lay-up attempts to come far enough from the basket that his misses are ending up in the <10’ category? It seems like he’s had fewer improbably open lay-ins thus far.
for the most part
lay-ups and put backs count as at the rim. Jump shots within 10 feet cout as “less than 10 feet.” Running floaters, I got zero clue.
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 20, 2010 1:29 PM PST up reply actions
What it sounds like pipe.
At the rim means at the rim. 10 feet means anything not at the rim which is probably a couple feet to 10 feet away. 10-23 and 3 pt line is pretty self explanatory.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
If you go to the black header at the top of the chart for all players
and pass your cursor over any item, it will tell you what it means.
At the rim refers to layups, tips and dunks, although there might be others like finger rolls. But, the majority are those 3 types. Inside 10 feet is any shot other than one of those 3.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Dec 20, 2010 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yep Pipe.
Thanks for that HT. I forget you can pass over the cursor over these definitions.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I think the biggest problem is that everyone is looking for a quick and easy solution.
Right now there isn’t one for this team. You’re going to have ride out the growing pains with this group.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
And that includes them learning how to be better NBA players for that matter.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
reply fail
I dont know if you are including me in “everyone”, but I see no quick fix. I do see a team that has shown little progress for 82 games, and it concerns me that it is going to be a constant rather than the valley before climbing to a peak.
Young teams progress is not necessarily linear. That's the problem Mike.
The 13-14 record is a mindfuck. That’s why I didn’t take much stock in it; there was a lot of luck involved in compiling that record. I credit Petrie & the Maloof’s in not panicking to fire Westphal when it didn’t quite go their way after the first season. I think it was smart to extend PW just because if he was a lame duck speculation would really go up. Right now it’s all about fan frustration and little else. Which is, naturally, the way it’s always going to go.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
To be fair, here is the context of the quote.
Here is the question posed to Westphal by 1140’s John Dickinson:
Coach, we’ve talked about it and people have asked- should we get the ball to Cousins more, should we get Tyreke shots, even Francisco. What do you see going forward as the identity of this team on the offensive end? Is it inside out? Is it Tyreke? Is it a combination? It seems like there is stretches of good in all of that and then has been stretches going away from all of that.
Westphal was asked this question late in press conference and after an exchange with another reporter. Basically, he was asked to lay out the offense ideology and that is what he tried to do in 45 seconds or less.
I like some of what Mahoney had to say but I also think he used his own interpretations of Westphals terms in a few spots to make his point. Does Westphal wish he had better shooter? Yes. Does he wish his team would get more defensive stops so they can get out and run more often? Yes.
There’s an important distinction between franchises unable to execute a theoretically sound plan and those who struggle because of a flawed approach.
Every Kings is shooting below their career FG% average except Francisco Garcia who can’t seem to shake his man. How do you game plan for Carl Landry, a career 54.5% shooter to shoot 47.0% or Dalembert, a career 55.6% shooter to drop to 42.4%? I don’t buy the argument that the coaching staff has put these guys in the wrong spots on the floor to be successful. Landry obviously has free reign to shoot from anywhere he wants and Dalembert is missing most of his shots from inside of 3 feet.
I’m not sure what the answer is- trades, benching players, a coaching change but there is a load of blame to go around here and this article seems to placing most of it on Westphal which I’m not so sure is accurate.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
by jjham15 on Dec 20, 2010 12:21 PM PST reply actions 6 recs
You hit it on the bulls eye jjham in regards to context
Just looking at the last part of Westphal’s quote you can tell he just went on a big ramble after being asked a question about the team’s offense. Not surprised to hear he just pulled it out of his ass. I saw someone in the other fanshot crack a joke about how “Really Westphal? So you want a balanced offense. Wow.” That’s kind of how I read it too.
This is largely why I felt it was similar to the Kahn and Kuester stories.
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 20, 2010 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
I think that this is a fair counterpoint JJ.
I do have to ask though, do you really think that offense is being layed out that good by PW. That the plays and system being run are sound? Do you blame the players and their execution for deficits?
I get what you are saying. There is definitely enough fault to go around, and I am not saying the players don’t hold some responsibility, but I am leaning to the side of seeing a lot of the offense as unimaginative, uninspired, and as pretty flawed.
The offense, more often than not, seems to involve isolation plays that don’t work out. There is a lack of movement. And this seems to be called plays. That would seem to be on PW to me…
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Hard to say Mustang whose to blame
for what it’s worth, I personally was more interested in what the scouts in Jason Jones’s article were saying they saw on the court.
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 20, 2010 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with tis.
All Rob Mahoney did was bring “some” of the issue to light on a national level.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
This article reeked of
basketball nut blogger reading all the local papers in the morning and seeing a quote from a coach and saying to himself “Wow that is definitely not the offense I’ve seen them running there, I know that for sure” and then picking the whole quote apart piece by piece because … well analysis is his job so why not I suppose. I just have a hard time caring about the Westphal comment is all.
That being said though, at least his analysis points out what we are doing on the court correctly.
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 20, 2010 1:27 PM PST up reply actions
I think Paul Westphal's goals are good one's.
I just think his young team doesn’t get how to do it. They have all the talents to succeed at it.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Very good points, with this sticking out
I am leaning to the side of seeing a lot of the offense as unimaginative
as an example, I mentioned in another thread somewhere that I thought guys like Omri and Donte weren’t being used to their full advantage on offense. I understand that every team has its bread and butter on offense, but I don’t see why guys lower on the offensive totem pole can’t get more opportunities.
Especially when the double teams come off of them
Cousins and Evans get doubled and we aren’t making the other teams pay for it. Donte’ and Omri are good, feet set, spot up shooters and they should be getting more shots, especially Omri.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
After watching Greene go 3-13....
You want to see more? It’s all about spacing on the floor.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
by jjham15 on Dec 20, 2010 1:13 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I'd just like to see him (and Omri) get different types of looks
And be used in a more diverse way. Types of plays that could be run for these guys that I seldom see: backdoor cuts, p & r, down screens/curls for mid range (vs long 2 or 3) jump shots. Just something so that defenses have to do something other than pack the lane on Tyreke and DMC.
I said this long before in a game thread
During warm-ups Omri often works on hook shots and other mid-range attempts. I can only remember once this season that it looked like a play was run to get him that kind of shot however (it didn’t work, ball handler was cut-off).
I know its just me
but I’ve seen no evidence that Donte can shoot. It should have showed itself by now. I think he hits just enough shots to get a ….well, maybe…from us.
I am pleased at his improved rebounding, although I haven’t check the stats.
I will add, shooting is one area in the NBA I think can be improved dramatically with practice. I have not noticed any major flaw in form, has anyone else?
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
He is only shooting 31% from 3, and his FG% is 39%. And he’s averaging 3.2 rebounds per game for the season.
In these times, you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning.
~Carl Sandburg
Donte averages 7 shots a game and 3 of those are 3pters
Omri averages 7.5 shots a game and 4 of those are 3pters. Omri’s shooting 40% from 3 and Donte 31%, and both of them are shooting better than Tyreke who also takes three 3’s per game and is shooting 29%. And, when you get 7 shots a game and half or almost half are from 3’s where 34-39% is a good rate, your going to have a low shooting percentage especially if the team isn’t running any plays for you.
The other thing to remember is that there really isn’t very much difference between Omri’s .428 FG% and Dontes .390. Adjusted for total shots taken Donte would have only had to hit 5 more shots to have the same 42.8% shooting. and, the same would be true about the 3pt shooting, only 5 shots difference.
Of all the players who’ve taken more then 10 3pt attempts only Omri, Cisco (37%) and Luther (32%) shoot better than Donte. One point on Donte’s 3’s is that unlike Omri and Garcia, who take a lot of corner 3’s, Donte’s 3’s come more out top FT line extended. I don’t know if this is his preferred spot or if he’s asked to shot further out because he’s asked to get back on defense.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Dec 20, 2010 4:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the more in-depth stats.
In these times, you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning.
~Carl Sandburg
Westphal has had to scale back the offense on more than one occasion
And even the scaled back offense players still don’t know. I honstly believe that the two biggest reasons for the kings poor play is mediocre bb IQ way to man guys who have yet to establish their ceiling. Beno understands his ceiling. Besides him, the Kings have either young players or veterans in contract years. That’s too many players who think they are the answer.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
by jjham15 on Dec 20, 2010 1:08 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Hmm...
So your take on it is that players are either not following the system or that they are not understanding the plays. They either don’t get it or decide to just go to the hole on their own. I could see some of that, but you seem to be letting PW 100% off of the hook…
I have to wonder if there are equal measures of ownership here. Perhaps it is both PW being a bit limited in his ability to teach the plays and some limits in the ability of the players to understand his (perhaps overly complex) system. Then of course you would have to factor in how much practice time the team can actually have given the schedule.
I guess I am not OK with letting PW off the hook. It is one thing to say there is more than enough blame to go around and another thing to blame the players without assigning him some fault. I do like that the rotation has settled down some, but the play sets are just way too basic and flawed to begin with…
I think the second and third offensive options are just too complicated and involve too much transition. You can’t tell me that passing out of double teams is too complicated for even the most idiotic player. They don’t even seem to try to do some of the most basic things a team with the advantage in the post should be doing….
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
This confused me greatly
I do like that the rotation has settled down some, but the play sets are just way too basic and flawed to begin with…
followed by
I think the second and third offensive options are just too complicated and involve too much transition
I feel like I am reading Goldilocks
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 20, 2010 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
These are not inconsistent
We don’t see a completely different starting line up every 3 games. That is what I meant.
I am not talking about second or third offensive (player) option. I am talking about the play sets. If play set #1 doesn’t work then play set #2 is tried, and if that doesn’t work then they try the next play. It is just a bit to complicated and they need something basic that can be as simple as passing out of the low post when doubled.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Dude give me a break.
These guys aren’t running basic NBA plays well, and you want them to try & figure out how to do more complicated plays?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Sorry Mustang
to be honest I am a little confused by what you are trying to say. Maybe I need more coffee.
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 20, 2010 1:53 PM PST up reply actions
These guys don't understand how to move off the ball very well..
..and you want Paul Westphal to put in a MORE complicated offense?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I agree they don't know how to move off the ball very well
So spot them up and get them some open looks when the other team collapses on the paint. I do wish for more movement, but I think my point that they aren’t even doing the basic stuff is pretty valid.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
And whose fault is that?
The players or the coach?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
They seem to do it well in stretches
When the defense adjusts, it takes them a while to figure things out. Westphal seems to give the players on the court a lot of freedom to figure things out when this happens.
Learning at the expense of winning?
I think I have been clear on fault
I think the PW’s at fault to a large degree. It doesn’t have to be all that complicated. A lot of people are giving him a pass here and I don’t think that sits too well. Sure, some of it is on the players, but not all of it.
There are some basic options for when the primary play doesn’t work that could be tried. PW doesn’t even seem to trying or attempting to do the most basic things. For example, you pass it into Cousins or Landry and they get doubled. The second option should be passing it out to somebody set and ready to shoot. They don’t do that. All their players are on the other side of the floor. I get that that this is all about spacing, but it isn’t working. The D collapses on the paint anyway.
Instead of having open shooters behind the low post threat they end up having to pass it out to the one guy on that side of the court who is covered pretty well and that guy has to swing the ball all the way around the court. This gives the other team time for their players to get back from the paint onto perimeter D. The Kings don’t even pass it back into the post very much when this happens to see if they can get another look.
It is a one dimensional offense most of the time and increasingly so when other teams figure it out. Other teams are figuring it out and cutting off the passing lane to the one guy open to get that pass.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
I can understand that your not willing to give PW a pass
but he is putting the ball into the hands of his 2 most inexperienced players and giving them a chance to learn by their mistakes. We’ve had coaches in the past that wouldn’t have let DeMarcus and Tyreke touch the ball in the final play of the game, let along run the play thru them.
If he’s putting the ball into the hand of our top rookies in critical plays, we’ve got to expect some mistakes that aren’t PW’s fault. But I agree with you that some of the offensive problems have to rest with the coach. Although based on his post game comments, Westphal doesn’t think he’s to blame. I’ve yet to here him take the blame for any of the KIngs problems. So, maybe he’s right and we’re wrong.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
If he teaches them more than just go to the hole that would be great.
I think that players need to grow in a lot of ways and learning plays is pretty important. If PW can put it in their hands and teach them to make decisions on how to best play that would be great. Don’t leave them at the end of the shot clock with no other option but to put up a well defended shot.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
That is the problem with playing your rookies. You never know what the outcome will be.
Some other coach might run more contolled sets. Whether that would work better than Westphals freer style, is anyone’s guess. But, if you look at how many minutes DMC is compared to the rest of the top 8 picks in the draft, and I believe you’ll see that only Wall is playing a greater role for his team than DeMarcus. And, the same was true for Tyreke last year. and, I don’t believe anyone is asking for Tyreke and DeMarcus to play fewer minutes no matter how many losses we end up with.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Dec 21, 2010 2:26 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I like it that DMC is finally getting enough burn to learn the game
And I think with Wall’s injury, he may be back now, he will end up getting more time and play a greater role.
What I don’t think is positive is running bad plays. This isn’t about a freer style. There are plays being run and they just suck. I don’t care if we lose that much if we see development and that is a problem. Teaching players to play a crappy system is not teaching them well IMO.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
You forgot Petrie and the Maloofs
As part of your multiple-choice blame game.
"It really was amazing to see the difference in this team when Pooh was out there moving the ball. Crisp passing, set plays, movement, and Oh yeah, SMILES & PASSION exhibited by the other players on the floor."
Of course they are the most responsible parties for the losses. And I can completely understand why they went about things the way they did.
So what’s the sense of jumping on the players and the coaches the entire season and arguing amongst ourselves about who is most blameworthy?
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 20, 2010 2:50 PM PST up reply actions
I think they know the scaled back offense
The problem is in a simplistic offense, a predictable one, it’s easy for almost any team to take away you’re #1 option in cruch time.
Make it more complicated and live with THOSE mistakes, at least you’d have a chance.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Dec 20, 2010 3:03 PM PST up reply actions
This seems like a reasonable enough argument.
Although, I go back to, if they can’t run simple plays, how are they going to run more complicated plays? The best example I can think of is the post Jordan Bulls that Jerry Krause insisted to continue to use the Triangle even though they didn’t have the personnel to really make it work.
The biggest problem is that Tyreke and DMC are learning on the job, and have not become the stars the Kings need them to be in the long run to remain competitive.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
How do we know that
they can’t runs simple plays? And what kind of simple plays are we talking about?
I’m not disputing it, but I am not taking everything that PW said as an absolute truth. I sometimes have the impression that he is very good at subtly laying the blame at the feet of his players, but rarely takes any responsibility himself.
The bigger portion of last year roster, and the core of the team has remained the same. As a coach, shouldn’t you be able to have a good view on that group’s abilities and inabilities, strengths and weaknesses? And then, shouldn’t you implement an offense that fits those (in)abilities and strengths/weaknesses?
It is easy to lay the blame at the feet of the players and their inexperience. And I’m sure that there is truth to it. But PW knew he got a rebuilding job, and I would expect him to have a plan n place and coax a better performance out of the players, not the general regression we see now. And I’m not even mentioning the constant lineup changes, JT at the 3, players going from started to DNP-CD and the short experiment with becoming a defense-first team.
Tyreke, JT, Greene, and Casspi all have a bit more experience. Cisco and Landry (relative veterans) have been with the team since the off-season, and Dalembert is another veteran presence. Granted, DMC is an important cog and a rookie, but that is not enough to explain the general lack of progress.
Color me skeptical.
Dunking Dutchman
Color me skeptical.
Well duh.
How do we know that they can’t runs simple plays? And what kind of simple plays are we talking about?
Like initiating the offense quickly for one thing. Guys stand around and look at each other for a long time. It’s a consistent issue with this group. I wish I knew the fix to this, but a lot of will be maturity and player understanding that movement is imperative to winning at the NBA level.
Nothing I’ve seen suggests that commitment or understanding is there for these young players yet.
The bigger portion of last year roster, and the core of the team has remained the same. As a coach, shouldn’t you be able to have a good view on that group’s abilities and inabilities, strengths and weaknesses? And then, shouldn’t you implement an offense that fits those (in)abilities and strengths/weaknesses?
I agree with this. The question: What strengths does this team show on a consistent basis that you would be willing to hang your hat on? That’s the problem again: Youth is inconsistent, and worse, quite often unreliable. Welcome to rebuilding at the NBA level. This isn’t Maccabi where you can buy some high quality Balkan, Russian or American talents and win the EuroLeague this year. It’s not all about how rich you are at the NBA level (although that doesn’t hurt either).
It is easy to lay the blame at the feet of the players and their inexperience. And I’m sure that there is truth to it. But PW knew he got a rebuilding job, and I would expect him to have a plan n place and coax a better performance out of the players, not the general regression we see now. And I’m not even mentioning the constant lineup changes, JT at the 3, players going from started to DNP-CD and the short experiment with becoming a defense-first team.
It is easy to lay the blame of this team on the inexperience and the youth of these players. It’s also the correct answer in this case. It’s why I keep saying it. I’m not just spouting off bullshit to be contrary because the anti-PW crowd pisses me off Rik.
Tyreke, JT, Greene, and Casspi all have a bit more experience. Cisco and Landry (relative veterans) have been with the team since the off-season, and Dalembert is another veteran presence. Granted, DMC is an important cog and a rookie, but that is not enough to explain the general lack of progress.
Yes, they all have more experience. What they need to really do is become better players with consistent traits that make the Kings better. That hasn’t been evident and that’s the difficulty of rebuilding. You’ll notice it when it happens.
I’ll tell you what Rik. I’m not unhappy with various things that have happened. The lanes get packed for Reke every time he drives now because NBA players have A) adjusted and B) coaches have maintained that beating the Kings quite often comes to keeping Reke out of the lane.
To be honest, I think Omri Casspi’s and Donte Greene’s progress has been decent up to this point. I don’t think they’ve regressed to the point where they are disappointments to this team. Or at least I’m not disappointed with either of them. Then again, they are role players too.
DeMarcus Cousins was thought to be a star, and to the chagrin of many, they are noticing why some were mentioning that DMC wasn’t a finished product. He’s not. Quality players like DMC can take time to adjust to the NBA. When he does, and he’s showing signs of it already, it will mean better things for the Kings.
Tyreke Evans is struggling with that A) every team has taken away his strengths and forced him to play to more of his weaknesses. He has never faced tougher players or coaches on a nightly basis. He’s struggling with this. It’s no secret this is why some felt that Tyreke was a risk to begin with because of his natural first instinct is to score. There is nothing wrong with Tyreke that isn’t fixable with time. But, the key word here is time.
Don’t lecture me on where Paul Westphal is responsible for Tyreke’s recognition to make the offense run A) faster or B) get the ball to guys in spots where they can be effective. DMC needs to learn how to get his shots against players that A) more athletic he is and B) more experienced. This is a problem for any team when they have so many young players. What’s the fix? TIME!
You want to blame Westphal for inserting Head into the lineup for defensive reasons, or playing JT at the 3, go ahead. I didn’t agree with either of those moves. It makes easier to criticize him. If anything, I think PW has been far too aware of his critics and tried to appease them. My general view of this is you tell your critics to go fuck themselves and sit on a 10 foot pole and rotate on it until they get it. Then again, I’m not likely to be a NBA head coach any time soon either.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
First of all
I never said something about firing PW. For the record, I think he should finish this season unless things escalate. But just because we’re faced with the sad truth that other than the PBJ sandwich, no top coach will be hired by or come to the Kings, does it mean that he cannot be held accountable?
No, it is part of the answer, since there are other elements at pla. If your suggesting that time is the only factor here, then why spend money at a coach at all? Of course the coaching amtters, and I am wondering how much PW is hindering the development of the team.
It is easy to lay the blame of this team on the inexperience and the youth of these players. It’s also the correct answer in this case
Don’t lecture me on where Paul Westphal is responsible for Tyreke’s recognition to make the offense run A) faster or B) get the ball to guys in spots where they can be effective.
Don’t lecture me on what not to lecture you about!
PW was hired to rebuild a (young) team. So again, PW should be held accountable for that to some extent. If after a hundred games, PW hasn’t been able to make Tyreke understand that he should initiate the offense faster, then either Tyreke is as thick as a brick, or PW isn’t teaching very well. The first prospect frightens me too much to contemplate.
Guys standing around. I will take Casspi as an example since I’ve studied him most. He understands spacing, and he knows how to move without a ball. I saw him do that with the Israeli team this summer, while he still played well within the offensive scheme. So either Omri lost some braincells during the preseason, or something more fundamental is amiss.
Another example: Landry. This guy knows how to play to his strengths, and did it within a more complex, demanding setting at Houston. But now the guy settles for way too many jumpers, instead of going to work on the low block. And even though that may not be Landry’s or PW’s fault, it happens too often. And PW doesn’t seem able to correct this issue, among other things.
Some praise PW for giving a long leash and letting the players figure things out on the court. I wonder if that is entirely the right approach with such a young team. I just believe that there some issues here that go way beyond youth and inexperience.
The strengths of this team? I think there are a few things, but I will have to ponder that and maybe write a fanpost on the subject.
This isn’t Maccabi where you can buy some high quality Balkan, Russian or American talents and win the EuroLeague this year.
I’m sure this wasn’t mean to be as condescending as it may appear. ;-)
Dunking Dutchman
I never said something about firing PW. For the record, I think he should finish this season unless things escalate. But just because we’re faced with the sad truth that other than the PBJ sandwich, no top coach will be hired by or come to the Kings, does it mean that he cannot be held accountable?
I’m all for accountability. I’m just not sure if Westphal is being held accountable for the appropriate things. A good example of that is what you stated here:
PW was hired to rebuild a (young) team. So again, PW should be held accountable for that to some extent. If after a hundred games, PW hasn’t been able to make Tyreke understand that he should initiate the offense faster, then either Tyreke is as thick as a brick, or PW isn’t teaching very well. The first prospect frightens me too much to contemplate.
So you’re frightened that Tyreke isn’t adept at facilitation? You shouldn’t be. It was a major rap Reke has had since Memphis. He’s yet to shed that.
Guys standing around. I will take Casspi as an example since I’ve studied him most. He understands spacing, and he knows how to move without a ball. I saw him do that with the Israeli team this summer, while he still played well within the offensive scheme. So either Omri lost some braincells during the preseason, or something more fundamental is amiss.
Not to be a snob, or European basketball hater because I truly am neither, but the reality here is that the European Championships, while competitive, are not the NBA. NBA rules and players are superior to that of those who play in the Euro Championships. That’s not to say there aren’t quality players, some of whom are in the NBA, in that competition. There are. It’s just not an apples to apples comparison.
Another example: Landry. This guy knows how to play to his strengths, and did it within a more complex, demanding setting at Houston. But now the guy settles for way too many jumpers, instead of going to work on the low block. And even though that may not be Landry’s or PW’s fault, it happens too often. And PW doesn’t seem able to correct this issue, among other things.
I don’t think Landry’s problems are solely on PW. He deserves some blame, but the reality is that what he wanted was more low post scoring. How did PW know that the Kings would get DeMarcus Cousins in the draft? How did PW know that Landry would take ill advised shots at ill advised times? Some of this is player responsibility, and I’ve gotten the sense here, that some fans are ill at ease at blaming the players and having something similar to what happened with Kevin Martin develop again.
Some praise PW for giving a long leash and letting the players figure things out on the court. I wonder if that is entirely the right approach with such a young team. I just believe that there some issues here that go way beyond youth and inexperience.
Give me an alternative that really works. I’d be all ears. I hear your complaints about what this team is doing wrong, and Rik, we don’t disagree where this team is flawed.
Look, I’ve seen a lot of bad NBA basketball played by a lot of teams for a lot of different reasons. Quite often it comes down to A) talent and B) experience. The more experienced anyone gets at anything, don’t they achieve more? I mean, that is logical right?
The problem with achieving NBA success is that it’s not necessarily as simple as getting more experience. It’s far more complicated than that. It’s not as simple as getting better talent because how those players play together matter as much as the players talent by itself. It’s a complicated complex process that very few people understand, and even less people have a reasonable answer for.
What I know, and what I think fans need to understand at some point, is that youth served comes at a price. A very very high price indeed. (And not give this a token understanding, but a real one.) Right now, patience is a necessary ingredient as part of being a fan. I’m willing to wait. If you aren’t, I understand. But having this battle over semantics day after day won’t lead us anywhere. I know that much.
We just fundamentally disagree over what’s wrong with this team. No amount of time, I think, other than change of perspective will see that change.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Off-topic:
Has the move to the TrueHoop Network caused you to stop cross-posting TPP articles here? Or is it that you’re just not linking to game summaries and news that’s already covered at STR?
Just go to CK. It's rather easy to get to.
That’s what I do. I rarely go through JJ’s links over here anymore.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I guess I was thinking more about the discussion that takes place here
I can see why it’s pointless to cross-post game recaps and such; everyone’s already argued out by the time they’re up lol.
I'm argued out about this time.
What do I have to contribute to a discussion on EC when I have nothing to say? I still have nothing.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
with the team on the road...
I don’t have a lot of insider info. I post stuff when it’s fresh and not out there so you guys can get it first. Also, I am writing primarily for cowbell kingdom now. I still post at the TPP but its all duplicate work and it goes up at CK first.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
by jjham15 on Dec 20, 2010 1:31 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
100% off-topic
But I’m heading to my in-laws’ today… Has section posted info about the Bobby Jackson meet and greet for tomorrow yet? I’d like to know before I head out and I haven’t seen it anywhere obvious.
The NBA: "Where 27 free throws happens"
I did a spreadsheet on top NBA scorers ranked by points per shot
and Geoff Petrie is right: the offense is the problem.
I took the top 100 scorers (points per game) and eliminated the seven who hadn’t played at least 20 games. Tyreke was ranked dead last (93rd) on the list with just over a point per shot, and he was the only King on the list.
If you wanted to call Tyreke a shooting guard, he was 28th on the list. If a point guard, he was 21st.
As an aside, Kevin Martin was third overall and first among shooting guards.
"It really was amazing to see the difference in this team when Pooh was out there moving the ball. Crisp passing, set plays, movement, and Oh yeah, SMILES & PASSION exhibited by the other players on the floor."
I believe hell just froze over
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 20, 2010 1:37 PM PST up reply actions
Hindsight isn't 20/20 vision but accuracy in NEK's world.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'd respond
if I could translate what you just said. But it’s undecipherable.
"It really was amazing to see the difference in this team when Pooh was out there moving the ball. Crisp passing, set plays, movement, and Oh yeah, SMILES & PASSION exhibited by the other players on the floor."
apparantly my bad typing skillz are contagious
Got himself a case of the Wallies.
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 20, 2010 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
I meant what I said.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure you said anything
At least, anything that means anything. But it’s all good.
"It really was amazing to see the difference in this team when Pooh was out there moving the ball. Crisp passing, set plays, movement, and Oh yeah, SMILES & PASSION exhibited by the other players on the floor."
Wow, that is just bizarre. This is worse than Pookey being respectable...
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Just to elaborate
Every contender has at least 2-3 guys and sometimes four who are in the top 100 scorers. We have one, and he’s shooting less than 40%. And that’s why we suck.
"It really was amazing to see the difference in this team when Pooh was out there moving the ball. Crisp passing, set plays, movement, and Oh yeah, SMILES & PASSION exhibited by the other players on the floor."
But you referenced something positive about Kevin Martin
Is there any particular reason for this seeming change in mind set?
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
It's not a change
I’ve always respected his ability to score and get to the line and said as much. I just haven’t also overlooked his defiiciencies at the same time like most here.
Houston has much the same problem with Scola as the only other consistent and healthy scoring threat this season. And Martin hasn’t gotten hurt yet, and hopefully won’t, although it’s not something to expect.
"It really was amazing to see the difference in this team when Pooh was out there moving the ball. Crisp passing, set plays, movement, and Oh yeah, SMILES & PASSION exhibited by the other players on the floor."
I put this on PW and a bit on Evans.
The Kings aren’t loaded with talent, but they do have Evans and Cousins and some nice role players. They shouldn’t be the absolute worst team in the NBA.
How is it that Landry excels with Houston, but sucks here? How is it that Martin sucks on offense here but excels in Houston? Rick knows how to get the most out of his players. Paul does not.
We should be feeding Cousins in the low post. He is a beast. Instead we get Evans shooting fade-away jumpers.
On the other hand, Evans can’t even run the pick and roll. That has to be on both the player and the coach and his staff.
Martin did not suck on offense here
by Smills91 on Dec 20, 2010 4:20 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I think he is referring to the fact Martin didn't score very well when Westphal was here
of course that could be because of injury and a host of other reasons but … well yeah
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 20, 2010 6:45 PM PST up reply actions
Imagine that..
A player coming back from injury that struggles a bit.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
I didn't mean it as faulting Martin, he is a great scorer.
I meant to highlight that Rick uses his players well, whereas PW doesn’t seem to.
Doesn’t it seem like what the Kings need is a scorer like Martin? But when we had him under PW it didn’t work.
by fryingpan136 on Dec 20, 2010 7:12 PM PST up reply actions
It really didn't have much of a chance
We needed him then and now, but we had a hole in the front line back then and a team going through a rebuild that was looking for any and every way that they could reduce salary.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
I skimmed it....see nothing wrong with it
Reke’s shot off the picknroll needs to fall….
Sidekick for Reke….pray for Kyrie’s toe.
Need to knock down shots to get them off the low post player.
by getPGwithbounce on Dec 20, 2010 5:22 PM PST reply actions


















