Decline Carl Landry's Option? An Intriguing Idea
by Tom Ziller on Feb 22, 2010 10:02 AM PST
in Free Agency/Trades
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PrintShamSports has a brilliant if terrifying idea, one which he doesn't really endorse but presents nonetheless:
[Carl] Landry is under contract for only $3 million next season, a veritable steal for a man of such great production. ... At the end of that, Landry will be an unrestricted free agent, but if they decline his team option this summer, he can be a restricted free agent will full Bird rights.
Sacramento has the option of picking up Landry's extremely fair $3 million option for 2010-11 and watching Landry become an unrestricted free agent in July 2011 (when, Stern willing, a new collective bargaining agreement will be ratified), or declining the 2010-11 option this summer, making Landry a restricted free agent in 2010, giving the Kings the right of first refusal on a contract offer in a crowded market.
At the center, it's not a "risk vs. safety" decision. It's "immediate risk vs. future risk." I would err on the side of future risk, given the way the CBA winds blow and questions regarding Landry's knees. But if the Kings have no other major plans for this summer, it wouldn't be the worst idea the try and lock in Landry through his peak. Some very interesting algebra in there.
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What would be a fair contract for Carl?
I think Milsap got 4 years 32 million. That’s not bad.
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
by Ice_9ine on Feb 22, 2010 10:10 AM PST via mobile reply actions
that's a lot of dough
Milsap is a more complete player. I like Landry a lot, but Milsap is a killer rebounder. The question is whether Landry is a better, or more efficient, scorer.
In our system (obviously through only 2 games), he hasn’t been as efficient as he was as the 6th man in Houston.
Like you said...through 2 games.
The guys don’t know how to work together yet. Meanwhile, in Houston Martin has had similar problems.
You can’t judge on two games.
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Feb 22, 2010 11:58 AM PST up reply actions
extension
I think ideally the kings, if they decide they want Landry for the long run, would sign him to an exention. That seems to be the preferred method for our management. They have let anyone they intended to keep hit restricted free agency, instead finding a mutually agreeable solution for both parties behind the scenes. For instance what they did with martin and cisco. I’m not saying its the best move as it has turned out both good and bad. In martins case the kings got a killer deal and it worked great.I love cisco, but in his case we probably paid more than market value. With this summer shaping up they way it is, it may be better to look at the extension route so someone doesn’t put us in the uncomfortable position of making a decision on whether or not to match.
by KeonClark on Feb 22, 2010 3:30 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
With a new CBA coming the following year
many will be reluctant to make major moves for borderline stars, which may have something to do with Martin being moved. There has even been some talk out of the NBA offices, that any deals made next year could be adjusted to meet the terms of the next CBA.
So, a reasonable extention or opting to make Carl a restricted FA, gives the Kings more flexibility. With a reasonable extention, if he becomes a star they have a bargain. If he doesn’t, he’s still moveable. If they make him a RFA, they have the Cap Space to match almost any offer he receives. And, because of the fact that they can match, I think most teams will be reluctant to make any offer other than one that is so overpriced that the Kings would be stupid to match. Because once the FA signing period starts, the teams that have cap space don’t want to be waiting the 7 days that the Kings have to decide whether or not to match the offer. If they make a offer for Landry then they can’t make another offer in case the Kings don’t match. Well as long as the two offers would use up more than their allotted cap space.
Of course the reverse is true. If the Kings make Landry an offer, or make him a RFA, then they won’t know how much cap space that they have to get into the FA market until a deal with Landry is done. Then there is the possiblity that the new CBA has a hard cap with no Bird Right Cap Exemption. So, if they pick up his option and allow him to become UFA, they might not have enough cap space to resign him or match any other offers he gets. Of course, the same could be true with all the other young talent as their rookie contracts expire.
Either way unless the sign him to an extension, they could lose him. So, I’d offer him a above MLE extention, and make him decide whether or not he can get a better deal after the new CBA goes into affect. If he doesn’t take it, pick up his option, get him for one more year on the cheap, then decide if he’s worth fighting for under the new CBA.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
That might be a little steep for Carl at the moment...
Milsap’s deal was intentionally high when it was given too him by the Blazers just to hurt the Jazz. Not saying Milsap isn’t worh that deal, but still that a lot of money, and Carl isn’t quit Milsap yet.
by hoodieNation on Feb 22, 2010 12:49 PM PST up reply actions
I may have missed something here...
This information isn’t something new. I would hope that Petrie is already well aware of his future options as it pertains to Landry.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
It's not new info
but its something we as fans don’t always think about and I don’t think its something that’s really been done.
www.mancancook.net
was actually thinking about this yesterday...
…I was curious to know if he was a UFA or RFA after next season.
I think the smart move is to lock him up as an RFA if you think he’s a main cog going forward(i.e. Bobby Jackson of the frontcourt) AND you don’t think it’s too realistic(or prudent) to sign a max free agent this summer.
If you think you can get a max FA, then you pick up the option and try out next year
What's the timeline for FA's like?
Say Petrie declines the option and lets him test the waters. It’s feasible (although not necessarily likely) that the Kings could go get the max free agent before Landry signs an offer sheet, allowing us to match and retain him
www.mancancook.net
Cap Hold?
My first question would be what kind of cap hold he would have, because he may have to be renounced to sign a Max player in your scenario.
Ahh, I see
so even if he’s a restricted FA he still has a cap hold?
If so, wouldn’t it be based on his $3 million salary which wouldn’t necessarily prevent us from signing the free agent?
www.mancancook.net
The cap hold is always about double thier salary
Don’t ask me why, I haven’t a clue.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 11:53 AM PST up reply actions
Check out item 30 on Larry Coon's site
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
Oooops
HERE
I think he would fall into the 200% category but I haven’t studied it.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks for the link, I had just found it myself
It could be the 200% category, but I am not obsessive-compulsive enough to study it. Pookey, where are you?
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
Yeah, I don't know where he stands Bird's rights as a 2nd round pick - or if it makes a difference
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
It's a complicated issue.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
Check out #43 as well
for draft pick cap holds
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
Cap issues
Cap hold aside, I also don’t see the Maloofs looking at paying the luxury tax for Landry.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
Only a Max guy would get us there . . . .
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 1:05 PM PST up reply actions
Yes
And the scenario I was responding to was the idea of the Kings signing a max free agent and then re-signing Landry.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
Even then
I can’t imagone Landry garnering more than 6-7 million his first year, in which case the Kings would STILL be well below the LTT with an additional 21 million in new contracts this summer. There total team salary would be at under 60 million with 11 players under contract(including our lotto pick). Fill it out with a 2nd rounder and a vet min guy and you’re hovering around 60-62 million range. Below the LTT.
Signing a max guy
would take us right up to the salary cap threshold, as I understand it. There is another 10 million in payroll or thereabouts before going into luxury tax threshold. The Kings would really have to spend to get there.
Bjax comparison
Good point – Landry’s true value might be as killer 6th man, if Kings find somebody who can reliably start at the 4 …
another option is to pick up the option and then try to sign him long-term before he becomes RFA, after we all know more about the new CBA
Also, it's not really THAT terrifying to decline his option to become an RFA...
…because we have the right of first refusal. Meaning, you’re guaranteed to keep him. The contract just might not be on your terms, but then again, the same would hold true as an UFA, but leverage is lost with UFA’s. I like the idea of dealing with him as a RFA.
there are a lot of teams
with money to spend this summer. If the contract was unfavorable, I would prefer we let him walk anyway. Bad contracts can cripple a franchise just as much if not more than losing a quality player.
by markdog333 on Feb 22, 2010 11:19 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It's actually pretty unpredictable though
Because some GMs may decide that they aren’t getting one of the big names and may wait till 2011 after the CBA when contracts are more favorable. The reverse to this, of course, is that plenty of GMs will miss out on the big names and overspend on a guy like Landry.
www.mancancook.net
right
Money will be burning a hole in a few teams pockets
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 12:01 PM PST up reply actions
Yes it will
that’s how you end up with Charlie Villanueva and Ben Gordon for a combined $100 million for 5 more years
www.mancancook.net
That just stings!
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
Like they won a championship in 2004
It may have been worth it. Every move other than trading for Wallace Dumars made was terrible.
by mayfieldcol on Feb 22, 2010 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
Darko wasn't a mistake?
Not like Melo, Dwade or Bosh are any better … LOL
The Pistons also ended up getting Rodney Stuckey in return for Darko. It didn't work out that poorly for Detroit in the long run.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
True,
but there are many teams in 2011 with serious money as well, with a lesser prizes in that free agent class. What accepting the offer means is that we’re willing to HOPE that Landry prefers our extra year with 12.5% increases over a different location, and he has the leverage on a deal and we create a bidding war against ourselves with other teams. By declining the option, there’s no bidding war. Another team has to attempt to create an offer that we won’t accept to lure him away, sign it and hope we don’t match. The fact that we’re 15+ million under the salary cap and nowhere near the lux tax, makes any reasonable deal likely to be matched and so they would have to severely overpay Landry, in which case they’re just screwing themselves financially. So why even bother with some preposterous offer to him.
Teams are afraid of what the new CBA requirements will do with their spending habits(in terms of acquiring players) as well as the declining revenue streams they’ve seen over the past 12 months, so most won’t go out and spend ridiculously, especially not in this current economy.
Let’s go and lock up Landry on a reasonable deal, and then wait and use our cap space in a trade to off-load a value player from a team that’s put themselves in a bind.
That seems to be the best course of action, because the likelihood of getting a legit max or near max level player is unlikely IMO.
It Depends
If a reasonable extension could be worked out by the end of the season . . .
Who knows what he and his agent will be looking for money-wise? I’d throw 4yrs at $5mil a year out there and see what they say.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
I would wait
I want a better picture of how he fits into the group. In my mind if you are going to conceed a less than average RBer at PF then your center needs to be above average.
Our 2 current choices are JT (average) and Hawes (below average).
I assume if you keep Landry, then either JT or Hawes has to go and be replaced with an above average RB.
I would let it play out for another year.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
You just dealt the team's best scorer for Landry...
…he BETTER be apart of the future! And you better treat him like it. The time to guess on that bet has passed.
by Smills9133 on Feb 22, 2010 10:56 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
There is that . . .
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
You had me all the way to this:
I would let it play out for another year.
I agree that it is best to wait at least a couple more games (sarcasm) before deciding whether to keep Landry or not. But, if the cards play out as management expects (for him to be successful here), then they should lock him into a contract beyond one year. He is still not the complete answer for defense, but he is a start. I agree with you that JT or Hawes will probably be replaced when this happens.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
I say you take the option and trade him
For a first round pick, at least, maybe more if you can finally include Nocioni with him.
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
by Ice_9ine on Feb 22, 2010 10:46 AM PST via mobile reply actions
If Noc goes with him
you’ll get less back, not more. Noc has negative value, you have to give up something valuable to make him go away.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
Why are we already talking trading him?
I think he’s exactly what we need. And I think he and Thompson just need to spend this next summer bulking up and working on defensive rebounding. If those two improved on the defensive end, they’d be killer players, given their offensive repertoire (scoring and o-rebounding).
If forced to trade one of the bigs, which I don’t think we need to even discuss right now, I think it should be Spencer. I like JT and Landy – I think they bring toughness and energy. JT may not be the best d-rebounder, but he sure wants to be. Spencer doesn’t seem to value rebounding.
reread my post
“If forced to trade one of the bigs, which I don’t think we need to even discuss right now”
But he sucks on defense
Spencer wants to be a 3, Na5.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
Spencer doesn't completely suck on defense
when he actually tries he’s a pretty good defender
www.mancancook.net
I knew I would get some flack on this one
He doesn’t completely suck on defense, but given his size, he hasn’t been that great either. Unfortunately, a lot of his efforts have been on becoming a better shooter, not on becoming a better defender.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
He's a ton better defender than he was
a year or two ago. Patience, patience, patience.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
I agree with patience...
It is going to take time to see how both Spencer and JT both play out.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
Be patient
No reason to give up on Hawes yet. Although he doesn’t play great D or Reb well, Hawes has some real skills that are hard to find in 7 footer who’s 21 … used properly, could be killer match up on the O end, playing 20-24 min/game
Its hard after games like last night
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
I don't have the slightest interest in trading Landry
just taking an opportunity to try to help Ice_9ine understand the league a little better is all.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
I disagree completely with your characterization of Hawes
he’s not a good rebounder right now, but I don’t see any basis for thinking he doesn’t value rebounding.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
You let Hawes become RFA
unless you can lock him up inexpensively. He’s timed just right for the CBA renegotiation and has too many skills to give up on prematurely.
I still think his upside is higher than JTs, especially if you have Tyreke, who will need another facilitator, someone else who can initiate the offense, on the floor with him for several years at least.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
Definitely more upside.
Hawes is playing better defense right now, better offense right now, than Thompson.
Thompson needs another year in the league, some stability with a clear-cut rotation so he can know his role. But right now I would trade him over Spencer. If we had to. Which we don’t.
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
by Ice_9ine on Feb 22, 2010 11:08 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Wait a second here.
I disagree that Hawes is playing better defensively or offensively right now. Hawes has 4 total rebounds in the last 3 games (60 total minutes). Rebounding is a huge factor in playing defense. In the last 5 games Hawes is averaging 8.2 points, 4.6 rebounds and 1.4 blocks in 24.2 minutes. Thompson- 11 points, 10.2 boards and 1.4 blocks in 28.6 minutes.
I would also let Hawes become a RFA and then match a reasonable offer for him. Like Tyrus Thomas v. Carl Landry question you threw out there yesterday LTTG, potential is nice and all but I want preformance. I want to see development which Hawes really hasn’t done this season (or Tyrus Thomas for that matter). I like to cash in my potential for people who actually preform. I like Casspi more than Donté. I like Thompson more than Hawes. Having up side isn’t a bad thing but that only takes you so far. Give me a dude with a lunch pale, not an entourage.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
I said more upside, not better stats
and there’s no way I overpay him right now. I don’t trade him either unless its for a Biiig young upgrade. I think next year at 22, we’ll start to see Hawes developing into his man body, whatever that will be. It may be the body he has now or he may be able to get stronger.
But I will loudly dispute anyone who claims JTs skill set is anywhere close to Hawes’. JT gets his through hustle and better strength (he’s 2 years older) but doesn’t show many signs of developing a solid low post game and will never be the ball handler or passer that Hawes is already.
Now, I’m not claiming that Hawes will definately be able to take the next step but lets see how next year goes. I think he’ll take another step towards developing into the 16/8/4 guy I think he’ll end up being..
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 12:11 PM PST up reply actions
(I could repeat my rant about kicking the age requirement up another year but . . .)
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
Please don't. For the love of God don't.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
they've both been so inconsistent
its hard say one’s better than another, at any given moment in time you can make the case for one, three games later the other is “obviously” better.
Honestly, I think if you let Hawes become a RFA, he’ll get an unreasonable offer. His existing skill set is too rare, easily projecting those skills forward is too enticing and the things he’s bad at (mainly rebounding) guys tend to get better at regardless when they go from being 21 years old to 26. He’ll never be a great rebounder, but what he does do is too rare in league at his size so there’s going to be a market for him.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
JT and Hawes
ideally you don’t want them to become the same player – Hawes can be a real weapon on O, and let JT work the boards, D-up and play within 15 feet of the hoop on O. They just need well-defined roles, some quality coaching, and let the upside unfold.
Tyrus Thomas
was a beast in his first game with the Bobcats. His numbers against the Clips look solid tonight but I wasn’t about to watch that with ‘24’ and Spartacus on TIVO!
If after the lottery is decided
And the Kings get, say, the # 5 pick, and then the team with the #2 pick offers that to you for Landry, what would you do? Would you refuse immediately? Counter offer by saying they have to take Nocioni, or give up a late first rounder as well? Tell them they can have either Spencer or Jason but not Landry?
I doubt this scenario happens. Would the Wizards or Wolves really want Landry over the #2 pick, likely Turner or Favors? However, I think some of the teams that have collected mid and late first round picks would give up 2 for Landry. The Thunder would benefit more from having a young vet in the frontcourt who can score when Durant goes to the bench. Is Landry worth 2 late first rounders? Would they take Nocioni? Realistically, Noc would give them some depth, and his contract is decreasing, with a team option in 2012.
I like Landry. But is he really our missing piece? Aren’t we still rebuilding?
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
by Ice_9ine on Feb 22, 2010 11:18 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I like Landry
in a sign and trade deal for Bosh. Long shot I realize but if the Raptors do a sign and deal they will want a young post player back in return. Landry is a bit of a poor mans Bosh. Other than that, Landry is a keeper since he basically qualifies as the only low post threat on your roster, excluding Tyreke.
Both Bosh and Landry are in option years
Bosh would have to agree to a sign and trade to sac., and that isn’t happening. He’s not going to a team that will have been in the bottom 5 of the league for 2 consecutive years. Not with 7 other teams like Chicago & Miami with as much cap space as the Kings, ready to move into playoff and championship contention.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Landry and Thompson need to spend the summer together and become best friends like in Step Brothers
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Feb 22, 2010 11:25 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Landry would be the "something valuable."
Obviously, the team should wait and see how good Landry can be as a clear cut #2 option.
I think he turns out to be terrific, and they decide to keep him around for awhile. There is something in the back of my head that worries that he is only super efficient coming off the bench though.
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
by Ice_9ine on Feb 22, 2010 11:04 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
your initial statement
indicated that for Landry and Noc together we should get more than Landry alone.
At the moment, I don’t believe that equation makes sense. Right now Landry + Noc < Landry alone.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
I meant more in the sense of quantity rather than quality.
As in, obviously the money would have to match for a trade to work. I think a plus would be to find a player who may have a shorter contract than Noc and fills a need rather than being quadruply redundant.
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
by Ice_9ine on Feb 22, 2010 11:20 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
6th man
even if that’s true, the team is still better having top 6th man if that’s how Landry plays best … maybe that means Donte plays the 4 (or JT), but there’s the draft, FA, and off-season to fill the 4 hole if that’s how it plays out
How much do we get for a player that's going to be an UFA?
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Intersting to see how TT gets along with L Brown
and if he can school the kid some.
Head on reasonably straight – he’s a guy I would want to go after in the summer.
(OK that wasn’t really related to this thread)
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
TT?!?!?!?!
Where?!
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
by Aykis16 on Feb 22, 2010 12:18 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
i'm pretty sure Boozer was an UFA
If he were an RFA Cleveland would have had the opportunity to match. He would still be ass though.
There was a different CBA at the time with different rules
The Cavs were not able to match the offer sheet because they only had their MLE to use.
www.mancancook.net
That was exactly the problem.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Wow
Its only been two games.
It seems as there is a lot of flux amongst the Kings talent, noone is quite sure of how players will develop, JT, Hawes, Landry and even Garcia. What is there upside, all stars, solid NBA talent or some guys who will never quite develop
As good an evaluator of talent that Petrie is, I worry about his pechant to over pay for free agents, Udrih and Garcia come to mind as well as to contract Bonzie turned down (thank god for that).
Beno does not look overpaid in most games this year
but your point stands
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 11:50 AM PST up reply actions
I thought the same thing when I read Murf's post.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
Or waaay overpaid anyway
A mil less would be about right.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2010 11:59 AM PST up reply actions
I would rather wait until 2011 to lock Landry up.
There’s no reason not to even if you want to lock him up long term.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
You risk losing intelligence by getting a lobotomy. That doesn't mean I think you're greatly at risk of losing anything Smills.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
+1
Everything’s a risk. If you make him an RFA you risk overpaying him or not matching a crazy offer and losing him or at thye very least paying him more money than you would have this season. Let his contract be and if things work out youo can sign him to a reasonable extension next year.
"And I never said I don’t like KMart. I just don’t think the duo is good for the team. They are essentially two of the same player"
Sammyp831.
Or a new contract really. But absolutely right SB.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
You also risk...
…getting into a bidding war as a UFA. The likelihood of him getting a bigger deal resides in UFA status, not RFA status. I think we could get him more cheaply if we allow him to test the market as an RFA.
How do you figure?
The likelihood of him getting a bigger deal resides in UFA status, not RFA status
Tell the Jazz how they won’t have to get into a bidding war over an RFA. How’d that work for Milsap? As a UFA, the player goes where he wants. It may be about money. It may be about going to a winning team or a chance to play. When a team bids on an RFA, they are hoping they bid high enough that the other team won’t match. In addition, the player doesn’t have to accept an offer unless it’s high enough that they think it’s at or above market value. They can always just accept the qualifying offer and become an UFA in one year.
No guarantees at all that an RFA gets a lower contract than a UFA.
"And I never said I don’t like KMart. I just don’t think the duo is good for the team. They are essentially two of the same player"
Sammyp831.
Yuh.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Once again
Don’t get that lobotomy. I need an idiot to keep making fun of.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Smills you seriously need to move on
If you’re going to ‘dislike’ Pookey, at least make it for a reason that makes sense. Questioning his opinions and analysis is not the smartest way to go. Call him an asshole or fat or something,
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
You might try reading more of the thread
I am now clearly trying to move past all the lame pookey retorts. Just because he does it frequently, doesn’t shirk responsibility for his comments. HE has something against me, I responded back, I’m sick of it. Done. It’s over. As you’ll see below. I was trying to talk basketball here and greeted with the flippant pookey comments at nearly every junction. Sorry for not letting it go sooner, but it’s done now.
Dude (or dudette)
You are provoking a battle you can not win. You are heavily outmatched…. He has a history of success and invaluable contributions, he is used as a source of info when a number of us need answers. He has a history of being both interesting, thought provoking and ok sometimes a little bit crotchety. You have a history of….well you’re a new born and as one you tend to cry a lot and demand attention. Good luck in your battle, if you wish you can send me your next of kin and I will inform them of your demise.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Believe me
We pay more attention that you think
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Ok lets do this your way
of person with a history of 54 comments…tell me one thing I misstated in my comment about you, or quote pookey ..shut the fuck up
Say something worth while and I’ll pay attention, otherwise I’ll just clean you off my shoe like the crap you seem to be
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Smills isn't a newbie.
He just created a new account for who knows what reason.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Oh...my bad
I get it…I changed my name when I got into that little issue at the grammar school
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
StR got remarkably better with you ElRon.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
with you around^
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
What bothers me is that you think ElRon doesn't pay attention. I would argue that he very much does (even though much of his oopiniosn show up in the form of self effacing thought).
If you don’t like me Smills, that’s fine. No skin off my teeth. But maybe you should re-asses where you really stand in the grand scheme of things around here.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Crotchety. I like that ElRon.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
keeping it real
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
As you should.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
It's cause the word "crotch" is in it
"You know what I consider mentally weak? Using your audience to settle a grudge with someone who had the audacity to publicly call you on your sh*t. The only thing more offensive is that Napear thinks we're all too stupid to see it for what it is." - TZ, Sactown Royalty
It wasn't a bidding war...meaning...
…that you have to sit there and go back and forth and one up each other, because the MAIN difference is the almighty $$$ in the player’s eye. The Blazers set an offer that they thought the Jazz couldn’t or wouldn’t match more based on the fact they had little room to operate under the LTT. With that said, the Jazz ARE paying the Lux Tax and the Blazers thought they could get Millsap. The deal is front-loaded and Millsap got market value and in the end, the Jazz kept Millsap.
Now tell me a team that’s gonna pay something BEYOND reasonable for Landry knowing full well that we’re nowhere near the LTT and we just gave up Kevin Martin who had 40+ million left on his contract for Landry.
By my estimates the Kings could be fully ready to pay UP to that much for Landry, and so I’d hedge my bet that no other team is going to tie up THAT much money for a week of the 2010 FA bonanza just to see Landry AND other free agents that they could have pursued go elsewhere leaving them high and dry. It’s just not going to happen.
And even if that offer IS made, we STILL own the right to first refusal and are in control of keeping Landry in a Kings uniform. Whereas the next year, he’s in control. We just have to figure out how much is he worth to us. But we’re in the driver’s seat this year.
You're forgetting something very important here.
The difference is that the Jazz already had Paul Millsap with their core of players. Whereas the Kings may change their core of players again this summer and already have at the trade deadline. The circumstances are very different even though there are a few similarities I suppose.
Smills if you were ever to know half as you think as much as you know, I might not be able to make fun of you. Good luck growing a miniscule brain. You have a long ways to go.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Pookey
enough with your lame-ass put-downs. It’s time for you to battle in the areana of ideas. The problem with that for you is that you’ll lose and you know it, that’s why you resort to childish one-liners and stupid-ass remarks that do nothing for these threads. Enough with it now, let’s talk KINGS BASKETBALL. I’ve now moved on:
As for your 1st paragraph, the one with actual substance, I believe the Kings view Landry AS part of the key ingredients. You got Tyreke and Omri that look as if they belong. Thompson, Hawes and Greene show flashes, but the jury’s still out on them. So Landry very well could fit in with the Kings core either as a starter for now, or later as a super-sub 6th man.
I agree the circumstances are different between Millsap and Landry. However, I was just responding to the reference made earlier about Millsap. The RFA status does make the situation somewhat similar.
Battle in the realm of idea's?
You want to lose Smills?
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
And Landry isn't restricted unless the Kings don't pick up his option. And, why in the world the Kings wouldn't do that is beyond me.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Contribute something and then worry about what it is I contribute.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
I read what you say. You just don't know anything.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Just wait and keep him cheap for another year.
Why pay him more right now? The fans will just hate him when he doesn’t play good. Keep him cheap and he’ll be loved by all, good or bad.
I don't think this wil happen
Petrie will pick up his option, so he has a bigger sample size as to how good landry really is.
He has always been more of an extension kind of guy…..and thats how I see it playing out
Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."
You have to be proactive in my mind
GP needs to decide which of these guys fit with the plan and which don’t, and for the guys that are in, they need extensions.
I don’t understand letting people you like get to the RFA stage unless the agent is being completely unreasonable. RFA basically is the right to be as dumb as your stupidest competitor. If a guy gets that close to free agency, you better have a solid plan in place to go another direction.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
not extensions this second mind you
but extensions as they get closer to restricted free agency.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
Why would the Kings want to pay more for Landry when he is so cheap?
I don’t get it. It makes no sense for a team that shed it’s most valuable money contract to attract cap space (and flexibility) in exchange for a talented player. (This is in addition to Landry of course.)
I just don’t get it why the Kings would want to pay more for Landry in the long run when this team is far from building as I see it.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
A few reasons they could want to...
(working under the enormous presumption you’ve decided you want Landry, so I’m not saying this is what I think we should do right now, only listing reasons why you’d negotiate a deal soon)
1) most of the time, you can try to get a discount. We have Landry for $3mil next year, presume GP and his agent figure after that 4 years $8mil per is fair. That’s $35mil over 5 years, if you negotiate early, you might get his agent agree to $6mil the first 3 years and $7mil per year the last two. Total costs$32mil, the Kings save $3mil and Landry get’s $6mil next year instead of $3mil, which may be important to him. This discount is probably too big, but that’s the idea.
2) you get the negotiations out of the way when neither side has tons of leverage
3) there’s no acrimony, you’re taking care of the player, not sending out offers they might get offended by, etc
4) depending on your cap situation, front loading the money might be to the club’s benefit.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
I agree.
But not because you say so.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
About Carl Landry vs. Paul Milsap
I actually think Landry is all around BETTER than Paul Milsap…..Yes Milsap is the overall better rebounder, and a far superior Defensive rebounder, but their a dead-heat in regards to offensive rebounding, and this far in Landry’s short career he’s been a much scorer.
by Devastation Co. MMA on Feb 22, 2010 3:40 PM PST reply actions
‘much scorer’ should read ‘much better scorer’
by Devastation Co. MMA on Feb 22, 2010 3:45 PM PST reply actions
Someone needs to do a write-up of Hollinger's view
That the Kings could have done better but were basically lazy.
“That story echoes a fairly constant background noise that’s been heard about Sacramento in recent years. The Kings have a small front office and nearly everybody in it has been there forever; one gets the impression not that they’ve lost their basketball acumen, but that they aren’t putting in the legwork anymore.”
It's "An Intriguing Idea"...
but @ $3 mill, he’s way too cheap to give up
This fish is on the small side..
catch and release…let him go into UFA…the future is in the draft
by getPGwithbounce on Feb 22, 2010 6:22 PM PST reply actions
If the Kings lose Landry for nothing
I will hurt someone. Badly. Name calling, or I might just cut them. But shit will go down.
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
Badly badly? Or just badly?
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Like your mother's cooking badly.
For the rest out there, just say no to the breakfast in bed.
I love you pook, but I’m still bitter. Give me time.
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
Forgo the love. Just emasculate the hate.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Cap space, employment strategies and feuds.
I drop by to see how the adjustment to Carl Landry is going and find there are pistols drawn, rapiers at sunrise, the whole thing.
Significant gravitas shortfall expected in 2010.
by Xiane on Feb 22, 2010 10:11 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I'm recing this for eternal awesomeness Xiane.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Of course.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
CBA question
Landry is in the 2nd yr of his contract and the Kings have an option on his third yr, Correct?
So, if they exercise the option, and at the end of exit year he becomes a UFA, the Kings still maintain his Bird Rights, Correct? Assuming that such thing as Bird Rights still exist under the new CBA.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Yes.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Thanks,
That’s why I like picking up his option & offering to renegotiate mid season next year if things are working out. Let him and his agent sweat whether they can get a better deal under the new CBA, or whether to take the Kings offer.
If they refuse we still might have a chance to use our Bird Rights, if that’s still an option, to out bid the competition should we think he’s worth it. At least we get him cheap for one year. Even if he becomes a RFA, someone might make an offer that’s so high we wouldn’t match it and we’d lose him next year, and get nothing out of the Martin trade.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
We call this "Monday"
"You know what I consider mentally weak? Using your audience to settle a grudge with someone who had the audacity to publicly call you on your sh*t. The only thing more offensive is that Napear thinks we're all too stupid to see it for what it is." - TZ, Sactown Royalty
Hollinger
just ripped him a new one on ESPN. Always hating on the Kings whenever he gets a chance too. His comparison of Tyreke to Larry Hughes will always be embedded in my brain.
I added my 2 cents
Why in the world would this very young Kings team trade away a starter – Kevin Martin – for a chance to let Ray Allen walk and Jared Jeffries for $6.5M. Oh, and the chance to get a busted draft pick in Jordan Hill and then late 1st round picks. This year’s first rounders look good but will next years or the next year’s late first rounders be anything more than hopefuls? Why would this Kings team already one of the League’s youngest want even more draft picks? They trade for a low cost high character guy in Landry who fills a position of need and will start for them. Hollinger calling the Kings FO lazy is mean spirited. Hollinger has been listening to too much Steely Dan
by betweentheeyes on Feb 23, 2010 12:47 AM PST up reply actions
Agreed bro.
That was all garbage. Petrie got a player he wanted + the cap space.
Sometimes you just have to look yourself in the mirror and say....Tyreke Evans.
That just happened.
You know what cracks me up about this?
I ran this trade after it was announced on the ESPN Trade Machine, and by Hollinger’s take we picked 6 or 8 wins in the deal…and that doesn’t even factor in the cap space.
What are we supposed to believe, John – what comes out of your mouth, or what comes out of your arse?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Feb 23, 2010 3:26 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Ok, that is pretty damn funny
"You know what I consider mentally weak? Using your audience to settle a grudge with someone who had the audacity to publicly call you on your sh*t. The only thing more offensive is that Napear thinks we're all too stupid to see it for what it is." - TZ, Sactown Royalty
How can you tell where it's coming from?
never mind, I answered my own question. It’s out of his arse when his lips don’t move.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
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