"It's hard. Every (general manager) and every coach wants consistent results. That's all anybody wants in this league, a consistent player, consistent results. But any time you have an inconsistent system, it's hard to ask for consistent results, and I think that's where a lot of guys' frustration is right now."
Sean May, as quoted by the Bee's Sam Amick
over 2 years ago
Tom Ziller
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Ziller your link ust lins back to StR
That’s a really mature statement by May for a 25(?) year old, tough to argue with also.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
Here's the link
http://www.sacbee.com/2010/02/23/2557205/rotations-wearing-on-kings.html
"You know what I consider mentally weak? Using your audience to settle a grudge with someone who had the audacity to publicly call you on your sh*t. The only thing more offensive is that Napear thinks we're all too stupid to see it for what it is." - TZ, Sactown Royalty
I edited it, link should be fixed
I find it hard to disagree with what the guys are saying.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
PW doesn’t often change the lineup after wins. If a lineup had positive results I’m sure PW would keep the rotation consistent.
Which would be fine if were a playoff team
But we ar going to lose more than we win. At this point in the year, you’d expect a coach to know who his basic starters are at each position. Right now our only known starter at any position is Evans.
"And I never said I don’t like KMart. I just don’t think the duo is good for the team. They are essentially two of the same player"
Sammyp831.
I would start
Tyreke, Omri, Donté, Landry and Hawes and bring in Beno, Cisco, JT as your primary reserves. Nessie’s likely out most of the rest of the season, so give the spot minutes to Dorsey, McGuire, Nocioni or Udoka. I personally liked McGuire’s defense and rebounding in the last game. As long as he doesn’t shoot. Ever.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
by Aykis16 on Feb 23, 2010 7:23 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
If Cisco's ready
I’d go Tyreke, Cisco, Donte, Landry, Hawes and let Omri come off the bench for a while. The guy needs a couple dozen holes shot in his ego, for his own good.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
That's my favorite line-up right now too
for our roster the rest of this season.
JT/Omri/Beno off the bench looks good as the main 8 main rotation. Give Udoka/Nocioni, and Brockman/May any additional mop up minutes that may be needed. Between the 10 player rotation we should be fine. McGuire, Doesey and Hughes should never play and 2 of Nocioni/Udoka/Brockman/May should play occassionally.
That is the line up I would go with too
I like JT, Udrih and Cisco off the bench. Hawes and Landry are below average rebounders, but Tyreke, Omri and Greene should compensate for that some.
I like Spencer’s defense at the center better than JT’s, and I like JT’s energy off the bench better than Spencer’s.
The interchangeable pieces
depending on matchups should be Casspi, Donte’ and Beno. Thats as far as the fiddleling should go IMO.
Occasionally Beno shoud start at SG with either Casspi or Donte at the 3. I’m Ok with either one as long as the other gets serious burn.
Hawes should be starting so the offense can operate from the high post as an alternative – especially against the zone. But one or the other, Hawes or Beno should be on the floor with Tyreke so they can call for the ball and initiate some offense when he starts ‘freezing’ things.
Cisco isn’t ready to start, seriously, why would he be?
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 23, 2010 9:39 AM PST up reply actions
100% agree about Cisco
The soonest he should start in my opinion is possibly next season.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Yep
I can see him contributing in the starting lineup well though. He’s a better ball handler and defender than Martin was when he’s healthy. He also probably won’t need as many shots. Cisco could be a great backcourt mate for Tyreke, he just needs to get in game shape and healthy, which I don’t think will happen this season.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Maybe towards the end of the season
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 23, 2010 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
Maybe
Not really in time to get anything meaningful out of it. I’m of the opinion that we NEED Cisco to perform, otherwise he becomes a very unsavory contract. I think he has the potential to be worth his contract. Wouldn’t be surprised to see him be the Team Captain next year.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Good Lineup Offensively
But that would be a terrible rebounding lineup. JT is a much better rebounder than Hawes. I think Donte should start and play the 3. I think Cisco should start at the 2. Omri should come off the bench. Udoka can play inconsistent spot minutes. Noc, May, McGuire should never play. They are not part of the plan, at least in my eyes, and shouldn’t steal minutes from guys that are part of the plan. Run and 8-9 guy rotation.
Spencer is a better interior defender than JT though
and a better player really. If JT could play defense, I’d agree with you. Right now he can’t.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
I like your thinking Aykis
Go with that line-up and stick with it through the end of the year. Move hot hands in and out, but let’s give the guys time to gel.
"And I never said I don’t like KMart. I just don’t think the duo is good for the team. They are essentially two of the same player"
Sammyp831.
by SavageBeast on Feb 23, 2010 10:07 AM PST up reply actions
I have two worroes about Aykis' lineup
1) Only one ballhandler on the floor scares me a little
2) Too many guys that think they can create and too few guys that move the ball.
Tyreke, Donte and Casspi, at this stage of their careers, all get the ball and then want to make something happen, almost always for themselves. I’d rather seperate Donte and Casspi, and get another veteran that will make the team play and move the ball to the right spot, even if its not flashy. On the other hand, maybe PW can teach the youngins’ on the fly and they’ll buy it, but I’d rather see a little more experience on the floor against other team’s starters.
If Cisco’s not ready, I think I’d even rather see Udoka than both Casspi and Donte in the starting lineup.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
I agree with the criticism on the ball handling.
So here’s an alternate lineup I like:
Beno, Tyreke, Omri, Landry, Spencer.
Beno and Tyreke have worked well together at times, both can distribute the ball, and Beno is a good enough shooter to act as a de facto shooting guard while Tyreke spends the majority of the time handling the ball. Omri starts because he’s a ridiculous rebounder for a Small Forward, plus his offense is more consistent than Donté’s at the moment. Landry is our best big so he starts. Spencer is our best interior defender, plus he has a great on court chemistry with Beno.
Then you cycle in Cisco, Donté and JT, and depending on if we need either offense or defense: Noc or Udoka. Rebounding?: Dorsey or McGuire (Nessie’s hurt or he’d be ahead of McGuire)
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
I like that lineup ending games (which is what matters anyway)
to start games, Beno and Tyreke can’t start because you have no backup PG then (other than an out of position Cisco if he’s healthy)
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
Exactly why I had that other lineup proposed up there.
Beno is really the only other guard on the roster (Cisco is basically a guard now, but he’s not healthy).
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Ballhandling is important
Which is why Cisco should start. I also think Donte has earned the right to start. I will always love the guy for his energy and passion last year during the 17 wins. He never played, yet was always there to cheer on his teammates. He’s the type of guy that Abbot writes about in Truehoop today.
Additionally, he’s been making the right plays – he’s scoring fairly efficiently and he cares about defense (and is an able defender).
LET DONTE START!
I'm of the opinion
That we could see a big jump in Donté’s statistics next year with regular playing time.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
We've scored less than 90 points lately
against bad defensive teams. Its a tradeoff, Spencer’s superior defense and facilitation vs JTs slTs superior rebounding
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 23, 2010 10:07 AM PST up reply actions
Spence has superior offense to JT as well in my opinion
and can spread the floor so that Reke can drive and Landry can handle the low post.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
I see Eyen's point
about a deep bench being a “good problem to have.” Unfortunately they’re making it a huge problem. Guys who obviously can get MUCH better like Donte should be on the floor as much as they can. I’d run him 48 mins until he drops, personally. That guy could be a legit star. Or he could be a 2nd tier guy who’s “pretty good”. Coaches decision.
by TheFNG on Feb 23, 2010 6:46 AM PST via mobile reply actions
lack of consistency
I read earlier in the season, when wins came more easily, one player comment that PW made everybody’s role clear and there was no problem with the constant changes (Rodriguez, If I remember correctly). I guess it’s harder to accept when the results are bad…
With all fairness to PW, most of the players have not been consistent. The question is how much of it is because their confidence is undermined by PW’s decisions? I think showing some patience with his younger players could be beneficial for them. Right now, I think we should at least focus on developing the players as much as on winning games. Early on, I thought PW would be a Coach of the Year candidate. I’m starting to have some doubts about him now.
Dunking Dutchman
This is typical
When the team wins, the substitutions look good. He’s playing matchups. The players know their role.
When the team loses, the substitutions look bad. He’s inconsistent. The players don’t know their future.
by sactown on Feb 23, 2010 7:11 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'll say this
I still like PW as the coach of this team, but I think he’s making his job tougher by not sticking to a more set rotation.
And I know that there have been injuries and player transitions, but a pretty solid core group (Evans, Casspi, Thompson, Hawes, Brockman, Udoka, Beno) have been here for the duration.
Every team deals with injuries and trades. But it’s been 56 games…I think there needs to be a little less experimentation and a little more consistency.
"You know what I consider mentally weak? Using your audience to settle a grudge with someone who had the audacity to publicly call you on your sh*t. The only thing more offensive is that Napear thinks we're all too stupid to see it for what it is." - TZ, Sactown Royalty
100% agreed
PW needs to stick with a lineup…you can always tinker on sub patterns a bit…but there should be a set 5 and 3 off the bench and then 2 that change with matchups.
5 – Evans, Omri, Donte, Landry, Hawes
3 – Beno, Cisco, JT
pick 2 depending on matchups – Brockman, Dorsey, McGuire, Udoka
Ugh, a set rotation would be nice.
I say start Hawes, Dorsey, Greene, Casspi, and Evans, play them for the first 10 minutes.
Then you bring in your bench of Beno, Cisco, Nocioni, Landry, and Thompson. Play them for 8 minutes.
Close the half with your starters, but Landry for Dorsey.
Second half start with Evans, Casspi, Greene, Landry, Hawes. Play them for 8 minutes. Rotate your top subs Thompson, Dorsey, Nocioni, Cisco, and Beno. Play them 6 minutes.
Finsih your game with Evans, Landry, and whoever is playing well.
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
Whining to the press won't help the situation
Mays should let his actions on the court do his talking. PW is doing his best trying to find some chemistry amongst a bunch or rookies and assorted losers.
Don't really see this as whining
I don’t think May is saying he needs more minutes. He’s saying no one knows when they’ll play or be benched, and it’s driving the kids batty.
I'm not sure you know the definition of "whining", Kingsfan, if that is your real name.
Pointing out what is making the coaches, players and fans frustrated is, as was stated above, a very mature statement from a guy who, despite being the posterchild for this problem has also been the posterchild for how to act in less than ideal circumstances. “Rookies and assorted losers”?! If you’re a fan, I’d hate to hear what you have to say about the fakers. It’s a freakin process, man! Especially when you build from the draft instead of buying a ring like the Celtics did.
Chemistry isn't developed 5 minutes at a time
every other game.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 23, 2010 9:42 AM PST up reply actions
The thing is
This year is about the future, not this year (except for Tyreke winning ROY). With the trade deadline passed new players ( + Garcia) and rotations need evaluation, PW is his due diligence.
Feature the Rooks and tinker with the roster.
Teh Dego Dagger
I think
part of the reason why he doesn’t have a consistent lineup is that he’s still trying to figure out what he has. Is Donte better at the 4 or at the 2? Does Beno and Reke really work? Is Hawes a starter or a bench guy?
This year is just to get the players feet wet with PW. I understand that the players can be frustrated though. If this keeps going on next year, then I think it’s an issue.
I Agree
Also, PW just got three new players and Cisco back for the first time this year. He (and GP) need to see what guys can do in order to determine who is the best fit (not only together, but at what position, etc.).
Cisco just got back from injury, and honestly, I’m a little surprised he’s starting already. I guess Coach knows best, because he sees the team everyday, but I thought it would be a while before Cisco got to start. Especially given the success that the Udrih-Evans backcourt had earlier this year.
I really don’t like hearing about the players undermining the coach like this, though. They are professionals and should be expected to put the leather sphere in the nylon net whenever called upon. I understand set rotations would be helpful for the players to be able to know what to expect, but with a young team that isn’t very good, no one should feel like their starting job is safe. The best guys for that night should be the ones getting burn.
Finally, they may not like it, but with the current rotations, it seems everyone gets some time on the court. Perhaps in a set rotation scheme, some guys wouldn’t get much time on the floor. How happy would they be then?
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Feb 23, 2010 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
Eyen
I don’t think that the bench (ot team) is deep – I think that it is largely interchangeable. That is, with the exception of Evans and maybe Casspi (add Landry after he’s been here awhile), nobody has really separated themselves from the pack.
The rest of this season needs to be spent figuring out who can and who can’t. But I sure hope that we are looking at a tighter rotation (8-9 guys?) in 2010-11.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Exactly...it's all relative
I don’t think there are many teams around the league drooling over our bench. The problem is that we do not have anyone stepping up as starters.
I think Westhpal has been more than fair with the minutes. The players have earned and lost minutes with inconsistent, if not just playing poor, play.
I agree with this.
Yes, it may be frustrating for the players not knowing who is going to play what position on any given night. But, each one of them has had an opportunity to start as a player, which he might not have otherwise. If a starting lineup had been established, then someone is going to get left out. No matter how Westphal had handled the rotations, someone is going to feel frustrated. Wesphal has been more than fair to give everyone an ample opportunity to prove himself, in a variety of lineup combinations. These guys should be grateful the for opportunities and playing minutes, which he has given to each of them. Some guys get on teams and rarely get a chance to come of the bench. I also agree that I don’t think many teams are “drooling” over our bench. If the bench were so good, we would be winning more games.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
I'm with Section
You’ve got one guy who has been consistent all season (Havoc), and then the next most consistent is Beno, a new guy (Landry) who no doubt will be consistent, and then six guys who have shown promise at times.
PW could have been more consistent with his rotations, but my guess is that would only have made us more frustrated. (I.e., bench Hawes, PW needs to light a fire under his ass; JT needs a break to get his head straight; Donte was playing more disciplined when Coach had him on a tight leash; Casspi is hitting the wall; and on and on.) I think we’re looking at players developing, and they develop like toddlers…in fits and starts.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
The writing has been on the wall for a while now
These guys aren’t going to settle down and just focus on playing well together until the rotation is established. I have no idea at this point what PW is trying to achieve. If we all can take a look at the roster and come up with pretty reasonable minutes breakdowns, surely the professionals can do it. My preferred starting lineup would be Evans, Greene, Casspi, Landry, Thompson, with Beno, Garcia, and Hawes the three main guys off the bench. Everyone else would only get spot minutes or sub in for injuries.
The stupidest thing about these endless rotations is that PW doesn’t even stick with the ones that work. I forget which game it was, but Evans, Martin, Casspi, Greene, JT worked extremely well and then we never saw it again. If the point of the tinkering is to find lineups that work, you’d think you’d begin to see certain ones emerge. But it’s always essentially random.
This really isn’t rocket science. It only has to be as complicated as you make it. I’m firmly off the PW bandwagon.
I think PW is trying to win games and evaluate at the same time
It might be refreshing to stick to the evaluation – and I think that process would be better served by playing the youngish guys the majority of the minutes.
The vets should still get some run – Garcia, Brockman and Nocioni getting DNP-CDs is ridiculous IMO. They may not be upper level talents, but I think both bring something to the table, regardless of the opponent.
"You know what I consider mentally weak? Using your audience to settle a grudge with someone who had the audacity to publicly call you on your sh*t. The only thing more offensive is that Napear thinks we're all too stupid to see it for what it is." - TZ, Sactown Royalty
i agree on Noc, Otis.
I wanted him to get traded as much s the next guy
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
by jjham15 on Feb 23, 2010 8:53 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
sorry, blackberry fail.
Noc is under contract for a few more years and he can obviously improve this team in certain situations. Garcia and Brock are injured.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
by jjham15 on Feb 23, 2010 9:08 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Actually
Did we ever get an official reason why Garcia didn’t play the other night? He’s back from injury, but not healthy enough to even log a minute on the second night of a back-to-back?
And Brockman has received double digit DNP-CD’s over the course of the season…
"You know what I consider mentally weak? Using your audience to settle a grudge with someone who had the audacity to publicly call you on your sh*t. The only thing more offensive is that Napear thinks we're all too stupid to see it for what it is." - TZ, Sactown Royalty
Brockman is hurt
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 23, 2010 9:44 AM PST up reply actions
Good grief
Look at his game log. Brockman has received DNP-CDs multiple times over the course of the season. I know that he’s hurt now, but my point is – when he was healthy, he was jerked in and out of the lineup.
What am I doing wrong here…is this coming through in Spanish??
"You know what I consider mentally weak? Using your audience to settle a grudge with someone who had the audacity to publicly call you on your sh*t. The only thing more offensive is that Napear thinks we're all too stupid to see it for what it is." - TZ, Sactown Royalty
Brockman is an end of the bench guy
there’s a difference
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 23, 2010 9:54 AM PST up reply actions
Plus he's hurt!
"You know what I consider mentally weak? Using your audience to settle a grudge with someone who had the audacity to publicly call you on your sh*t. The only thing more offensive is that Napear thinks we're all too stupid to see it for what it is." - TZ, Sactown Royalty
Comparing to the Past
When the Webber/Divac Kings were new, Adelman had a set rotation and the players knew their roles. Obviously, back then, it was a no brainer who your starting 1, 4 and 5 were but I don’t see any reason why the current Kings can’t keep just as consistant a rotation. How about playing a starting lineup similar to the 1999-2000 young Kings:
PG-Tyreke Evans/Jason Williams (Two completely different point guards but you can NOT start Beno here since there are no other backup point guards on the roster, unless you think that Cisco can fill that role? Bring Beno in off the bench. Beno > Derrick Martin)
SG – Donté Greene/Nick Anderson (Nick was a guy who could post up but was mainly known as a 3-pt shooter and a guy who could play some defense. Fairly similar to Greene here except Nick was, though more experienced, a head case and really was only comfortable shooting the three. Greene can do more. Interesting that both Greene and Anderson had free throw problems. Bring in Cisco off the bench ala Jon Barry)
SF – Carl Landry/Corliss WIlliamson (VERY similar players. Corliss could post and run the floor and was considered a smallish power forward. Landry has more post game than Corliss did but their body types and games are similar. Bring Casspi off the bench ala Peja. By the way, both Peja and Casspi are both 21 years old in these scenarios)
PF – Jason Thompson/Chris Webber (Again, JT is NO Webber but if Landry is the SF, then he is the only one you can put here. Dorsey has no offensive ability and May is no post player. Bring May off the bench ala Funderburke)
C – Spencer Hawes/Vlade Divac (Spencer can do many things similar to Vlade and is really the only 7 footer the Kings have. Bring Dorsey or Brockman off the bench ala Pollard)
The talent level on this Kings team is below that of the 1999 Kings but there are similarities that can be had in the rotation if PW so chooses. Sometimes you can look to the past to consider the present.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
I disagree
Landry is a PF, not a SF (don’t think he could guard the quicker SF’s in the league). Also, DG plays better at the SF, not the SG position.
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Feb 23, 2010 9:52 AM PST up reply actions
I think he can do both the 3 and 4 depending on the matchup
but SG? seriously? What does that build for the future?
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 23, 2010 10:03 AM PST up reply actions
(oh yeah, we no longer have a SG on the roster)
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 23, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
Cisco is pretty much a two guard
Not that much taller than Kevin was.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Agree.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
That's Fair
OK, then exchange Landry for Greene and bring Landry off the bench to spell Jason Thompson. However, that would leave the SG spot open and if Casspi is your starter, then there is no “Peja” to come in off the bench for Greene unless you want to slide Nocioni into that spot which would be OK I guess. You could start Cisco at the SG and have Udoka come off the bench for him.
Again though, if there is no set offensive scheme, then it doesn’t matter who starts and subs, the Kings won’t be consistant enough to win many games.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
Hawes, JT and Landry is a bad mix I think
If they’re all in at the same time. I believe this led to terrible results in the Clippers game.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Hawes barely played because of foul trouble
but I hate that lineup.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 23, 2010 10:12 AM PST up reply actions
Because Landry and Williamson aren't the same player?
Williamson was a great rebounder and tough defender.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Hmm...
Scratch Corliss being a great rebounder. Landry has better rebounding stats.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Aykis?
Sorry, but you are totally wrong. Corliss was a poor rebounder for the small forward. Averaging 6.8 rebounds a game, per 40 minutes in 1999-2000. Casspi right now averages 7.1 rebounds a game per 40 minutes. Corliss was also NOT a great defender and certainly no better than Landry.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
See my mea culpa above.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Also
Landry is a better athelete, shooter and jumper. Corliss was more nasty though I will say.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
I just think that Landry performs best at the PF position.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
That's Fair
I won’t disagree with that but at 6’8 1/2, Landry is really in trouble when trying to post up taller, more athletic power forwards. Now imagine Landry posting up players such as Rashard Lewis or Paul Pierce. There he would have a big advantage.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
But then you have two big guys who hang around the basket
And a possible third in Spencer (although I’m guessing he’s in the high post in this scenario).
We have a guy that needs to get to the basket in Tyreke. We can’t be clogging the lane.
And Landry hasn’t really had problems scoring against other PFs this season. I also wouldn’t want to see him try to guard the Pierce’s and Lewis’s.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
The thing Landry hadn't figured out this season yet
was the double teams he began to draw in Houston. Another reason why I like Spencer with Landry, pulling his guy away from the basket.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
It will be interesting to see how Landry performs against Detroit's bigs
Maxiell and Wallace.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Dilemna
OK, in your hypothesis you are saying that with Landry, Thompson and JT on the floor that Tyreke would not be able to work his magic and get into the lane. You may have a point. Then, let me ask this:
How do you spread out the floor and let Tyreke beat his man off the dribble when you have a point guard that can’t shoot?
Evans is a great player but he can’t shoot.. We have seen, time and time again, that teams are laying off Evans and making him either shoot or pass. If you don’t have scoring threats in the post, then the offense will have many minutes at a time where they can’t score. If you start Landry, JT and Spence, you have FOUR players that can post at any given time, including Tyreke. The offense has to start from the inside out. Sunday when the Suns went to the zone, the Kings floundered because when they play only from the outside and are forcing Tyreke to shoot, the Kings become stagnant. The Kings need post threats on the floor almost all the time to be more consistant on the offensive end.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
Add
I blame a lot of this on Westphal. JT, Reke and Spencer are capable if not great post up players. Even Casspi and Greene have shown themselves to be effective in the post when given room. PW has NOT been giving his post players space to work. That may be the players fault as well, but it’s up to the coach to work on things like that.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
no
JT is not a good post player. he has yet to develop a go-to move yet 2 or 3. he attempts to bully his defender, double-pumping, and throwing up a wild shot the majority of the time. i’d actually like to see him get less opportunities in the post – i think he tends to rush, miss shots, and not get foul calls which puts him in the whiny state of mind we all hate.
that being said – Spence has great potential in the post and would love to see the kings give him an opportunity with the ball down low 6-7 times a game. Spence has the moves, he just doesn’t get a chance to use them. Only geting the ball once a half or so he typically relies on the hook or the fade-away jumper. anybody whose played the post knows you use 1 move to set up another – you can’t do that if you only get the ball once.
by Madzillagd on Feb 23, 2010 10:58 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
welcome to StR Madz
good input
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 23, 2010 11:46 AM PST up reply actions
May has a point
but is the system’s inconsistency due to the players’ inconsistency? This season we’ve seen ups and downs from every player not named Tyreke. Every other player has had an equal number of good and bad games. Doesn’t that kind of force Westphal’s hand into basically playing a guessing game with his starting lineup? He has to play Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Mo to pick his starters and hope at least a couple of them have good games.
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Feb 23, 2010 9:32 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
While it is mature the team has been consistently inconsistent. Look at the battle with Boston, then look at the beat down we took from Golden State.
by BucksForever on Feb 23, 2010 9:35 AM PST up reply actions
I liked May's comments..
…because he’s not whining, he’s not complaining, he’s just keeping it real. He’s trying to explain what’s going on.
This
As far as I’m concerned, the Kings front office has lost the benefit of the doubt over the players. They need to be held accountable as much as the individual players for where this team is currently.
"You know what I consider mentally weak? Using your audience to settle a grudge with someone who had the audacity to publicly call you on your sh*t. The only thing more offensive is that Napear thinks we're all too stupid to see it for what it is." - TZ, Sactown Royalty
I disagree (again...sorry)
The team just isn’t good enough yet to declare starters (aside from Reke). Plus, we’ve got new guys who GP needs to see play in order to evaluate. Maybe the last three weeks of the season you start getting more of a set rotation, but in the meantime, there’s work to do. You gotta figure out the pieces of the puzzle.
The players should be expected to play whenever called upon.
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Feb 23, 2010 9:55 AM PST up reply actions
Don't be sorry
Trust me, it’s not the first time. :)
But I disagree right back at you. We are 56 games in…the only player Petrie picked up that needs serious evaluating for the future is Landry. I would think his frontcourt rotation should be pretty easy for the most part. At this point in the season, there should be some semblance of a core rotation, without wholesale changes from game to game.
And you are right, the players should be expected to play whenever called upon…but I don’t think it’s an either/or situation. Young players can probably benefit from having more defined roles on the court as well.
Having young players is only an excuse for so long. The youngest teams in the league (Memphis, OK City) are far ahead of us in their rebuilding. And let’s not forget that Paul Westphal was not exactly on the hot list of coaching candidates before we picked him up.
Meaning, there’s the possibility he’s overmatched in this particular situation. I think that we as fans might still be giddy about the fast start this team had, and thus aren’t casting a critical enough eye on his development of this squad.
"You know what I consider mentally weak? Using your audience to settle a grudge with someone who had the audacity to publicly call you on your sh*t. The only thing more offensive is that Napear thinks we're all too stupid to see it for what it is." - TZ, Sactown Royalty
inconsistency a glaring problem.
the only thing surprising about this article today is that it took this long for it to come out. may said it very well i think. you have to give a little consistency to get a little consistency. the kings still look like it is the first 2 weeks of the season out there. their rotations are poor on defense, the spacing is poor on offense, guys still don’t know the tendencies of their teammates on where they like the ball etc. – they just look like a bunch of guys that haven’t played much together because they haven’t.
that happens with every team in the league…at the beginning of the year. the difference is those teams settle into a rotation by december and for the most part keep that rotation throughout the year except for injuries or a sudden emergence off the bench of a player. by february guys are on cruise control out there – they know their defensive rotations, they know where their teammates are going to get shots, etc. the kings don’t have this luxury because it is a new combo on the floor every 3 minutes.
kings need to focus on an 8-9 player rotation – if the guys on the end of the bench are going to earn more minutes by playing well in practice then fine, but that means you bench somebody else for that game. don’t keep playing 10-11 guys because it isn’t working.
This
Although said above I think the lack of inconsistancy on defense is especially affected. Team defense requires familiarity and some trust, which is more than a little hard to build without consistancy.
Now, occasionally moving someone in or out of the lineup? No problem. But changing out two or three guys every other game? Hell it confuses me – and I’m not even out there.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 23, 2010 10:01 AM PST up reply actions
Starting Linuep
The starting lineup could be ANYBODY. The Kings are still going to lose if the system isn’t working.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
Every player wants consistent minutes
But if you are missing assignments and performing ineffectively, coach loses confidence. I do think PW has too short of leash with Spencer and too long with JT. PW made the comment recently he is trying to find out as much as he can about our players when asked about minutes, and I think this was a specific reference to starting JT @ C. This is an experiment, pure and simple, since he has struggled so badly @ PF. I think the thinking may be centers will not come out to guard him on the elbow. He can stick the 15 footer, which may open up the game for him. I would guess the experiment last a few more games, and then he goes to the bench.
Problem with JT at high post is he consistently dribbles into traffic, and is indecisive with his passes. Hawes is better suited for high post. My preferred starting lineup is same as Aykis:
PG: Tyreke
SG: Omri
SF: Donte
PF: Landry
C: Spencer
One more thing to watch for is that PW substitution patterns are almost always to counter an opponent scoring. His subs are primarily for defense. A lot of times it looks very random out there, but consider who is scoring on the other team, and you will see there is a rhyme and reason to what he is trying to do.
But then the question still stands
If Westphal has eschewed building his own team’s identity to win games or be more competitive in a lost season, is he right to do so?
I’d argue that we all knew this team was going to lose a lot of games this season. We were spoiled by the early season success, but I think we’re seeing what that ongoing lack of cohesiveness has led to – and that’s a team that has regressed and seems to be very disjointed on the court currently.
"You know what I consider mentally weak? Using your audience to settle a grudge with someone who had the audacity to publicly call you on your sh*t. The only thing more offensive is that Napear thinks we're all too stupid to see it for what it is." - TZ, Sactown Royalty
There's way the hell too much disagreeing going on in this thread
You guys are going to damage the Groupthink!?!
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
by Grasul on Feb 23, 2010 10:04 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Rotations
This reminds me a lot of Boston during the 05-06 season when Doc Rivers wasn’t able to decide on a set rotation. The lesson is that we shouldn’t worry and we’ll trade for 2 Hall of Famers and win the Championship next season.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
The disagreement is because we are as confused as the players . . . .
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 23, 2010 10:16 AM PST up reply actions
Often our player have fairly narrow... applications
The inconsistency is a problem, but also we have too few players who are good both defensively and offensively. A lot of time it is match up issues as who they can oppose defensively is limited. For example, either Spence or JT are often too slow or something similar to match up with their guy…
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