Kings 103, Jazz 99
by Tom Ziller on Feb 27, 2010 5:48 AM PST
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Print"And they chanted 'TY-REKE! TY-REKE!,' and it was good."
When playing the Jazz, the Kings rarely fail to give an entertaining show, and as fans of a bad team, we cannot ask for more. A veritable spaniel race!, from tip to tail. Never did either team have a comfortable lead, 'til Beno Udrih -- ahem, Wabeno Udrih -- hit a free throw with six seconds left to leave our protagonists with a four-point lead. Said free throw came after a stunning finish by Tyreke Evans with 14 seconds left, a brilliant slashing move punctuated with a short leaning jumper. That play was set up, in a way, by a lovely putback by Spencer Hawes, who collected his own miss for one of Sacramento's few offensive rebounds before tossing it in, unadorned and unchallenged.
Forty-seven minutes and forty-five seconds of a fight with cudgels, 15 ticks of sincere if knowing jubilation, a weekend of brighter time. Cheers!
***
The ball movement had been better in the first quarter than the fourth, but was well above the norm across the board. Hawes facilitated much of the offense early, and when this happens the other Kings are forced to move about the floor. When Tyreke handles the ball on the perimeter, chances are he'll eventually drive (for the shot, kick-out or drop-off) or pull-up for a jumper. Even if the other four move like the Bolshoi Ballet, Evans is likely to commence the possession with a move, not a pass.
Not the case when Hawes has the ball. In fact, he's really unlikely to take it off the bounce. He will basically either pass or shoot, and he'll only shoot if the defender slacks way off, which surprisingly never happens. It forces the others into action. This is not new news, of course; Mike Bibby was never known as the hardest working player on the court (no offense to my friends in Team Dime) but when Brad Miller or Chris Webber held the ball up high, Bibby moved his ass to open space. So it was when Hawes ran the offense -- Evans moved, Udrih moved, Omri Casspi and even Carl Landry moved. (There's an added bonus here: Evans barely needs a centimeter of space to have a massive advantage against even the best defenders. Moving without the ball opens up that space. I'm reminded of an early backdoor play in which Evans locked Deron Williams -- a smart player and solid defender -- in no man's land and beat him to the rim, where he received the ball and scored two.)
Hawes finished with five assists and one turnover, which is pretty perfect. The 15 points and 12 rebounds -- despite a teamwide deficiency on the boards -- don't hurt.
***
There are two ways to look at Andres Nocioni. He is completely selfish as a player, just utterly single-minded: shoot the ball. In one play in the second quarter, Chapu received a cross-court pass beyond the three-point line. Landry was completely uncovered under the rim, and Nocioni had a hand in his face. I dare say that 90 percent of the league would have passed the ball to Landry -- either by upfaking the defender and passing around, by bounce-passing it by the defender, or by taking a dribble and firing the ball inside. Landry was more open than my fly, that one time in high school, that time I was really embarrassed in Algebra II, up in front of the class with my fly down like that. Chapu, though? Lovely Chapu ... took the contested three. And he hit it, of course, justifying the next 1,000 contested threes (a goal to be completed within the week, I'm assured).
But, and I say this as a fierce opponent of contested threes, ... ... .. . this is Chapu. He is not fake, not in the least. He is, perhaps, the most naked player in the league. If Paul Westphal asked him to pass more, I honestly believe Nocioni would laugh, try to pass more for like three possessions, and start shooting again. Proverbially, he is what he is. There's no gilding, no disguise, no airs of pretention. Maybe to be a modern man is to be permeable. But ufck all that, for Chapu. Nocioni will not change.
And I -- thoroughly modern in attitude I believe -- I can't quarrel with that. Some strive for enlightenment, some relish all they have. Nocioni is the latter, and given how much he has, I can respect his worldview. Cheers, Chapu. Take that contested three.
***
The gesture between Westphal and Hawes was charming. The repeated "mountain-out-of-a-molehill" nonsense from Grant Napear was condescending, which is nothing new. Would you prefer we didn't care about the team so deeply, Mr. Napear?
***
Sometimes I mute the T.V. and imagine Lester Holt is calling the game.
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The repeated “mountain-out-of-a-molehill” nonsense from Grant Napear was condescending, which is nothing new. Would you prefer we didn’t care about the team so deeply, Mr. Napear?
Part of making it a “mountain” was talking about it for hours on your talk show, Peaches. What a tool.
by Dub_TC on Feb 27, 2010 6:36 AM PST reply actions 10 recs
Caption: Nice package there DWill, but excuse me while I dunk this ball.
Looks to me like the kind of game that should solidify ROM for Feb. after another game winning shot.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Game winner was #1 on NBA.Com's Top 10 Plays
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
already mentioned on a separate thread
Darren Collison has arguably bested both Evans and Curry this month. As for RoY, the most recent David Thorpe article address that though Curry and Collison have had improving and even better months, Evans has been consistently wonderful all year and is the clear RoY choice at this time.
by betweentheeyes on Feb 27, 2010 8:40 AM PST up reply actions
Nothing is going to be clear for me, until I see Tyreke actually win the ROY.
The race isn’t finished until you cross the finish line.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
I think the bigger question is
Who is better: Tyreke or Curry?
And an even better question: who would you rather have on the Kings?
I also wonder what kind of stats Tyreke would have if he was playing on the Warriors.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 8:56 AM PST up reply actions
perspective will answer the question today, careers will answer that in the tomorrows ahead
The Warriors fans would take Curry, the Kings fans Tyreke. For the NBA fan – they are both great talents with different skills. I see Tyreke as an unstoppable force who will continue to get bigger, stronger and more skilled. He has grown so much this season with his understanding of the League, it may not happen but you could at least project Evans as a top 5 talent. Not so Curry.
Curry has a superb grasp of the game and his passing skills are elite.He has a pure shooters’ skill as well. In regards to basketball skills – shooting, passing, ball handling, BB IQ Steph Curry is a superior package. But the NBA is not about skill alone. Look at Shaq for a glaring example of someone incredibly productive but lacking in basketball skill.
Lastly, Curry has the talents on display now. He will improve but he will refine his talents more than add to them. Tyreke on the other hand will improve with the addition of an outside game and a better understanding of how and when to pass. His superior size, strength and athletic ability make Tyreke the better prospect and I am delighted the Kings have a superstar to build around.
by betweentheeyes on Feb 27, 2010 9:29 AM PST up reply actions 7 recs
perfect
Imagine if you could combine Curry’s shooting, passing and IQ with Reke’s size and ability to get to the hole whenever he wants ….
oh man.
I like Curry but GS plays at a frantic pace inflating stats.
No inflation of percentages, but still the raw numbers are not as comparable.
by mayfieldcol on Feb 27, 2010 10:03 AM PST up reply actions
Amen bte!
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Who do I think is better? Tyreke
Who would I rather have on the Kings? Tyreke
But, I sure wouldn’t mind having Curry on the Kings, as well.
You made your point.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
Yep
That would be a great choice to have to make. Both guys look to be excellent NBA players in the long term.
"You know what I consider mentally weak? Using your audience to settle a grudge with someone who had the audacity to publicly call you on your sh*t. The only thing more offensive is that Napear thinks we're all too stupid to see it for what it is." - TZ, Sactown Royalty
Tyreke would probably be playing PF on the Warriors.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
... And it would be glorious.
"Thou must give props" - Ice_9ine
by tomroadrunner on Feb 27, 2010 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
Tyreke can't shoot at all...soooo
I’d take take Tyreke by far since his ceiling is higher and he has a lot of areas to improve. Curry can already shoot and pass…he’s probably not going to evolve or improve as much as a player over the years.
My takeaways from the game
1) Everything’s better when you make shots
2) We have a long ways to go to be a decent defensive rebounding team
3) The last two games, both Detroit and Utah went after Omri hard on defense, attacking him relentlessly until PW had to remove him
4) Tyreke played really well. I know he had a lot of assists, but there’s still lots of room for improvement in his playmaking for others
5) Beno was great, very assertive and 11-16 shooting is nice
6) Classy move by PW with Spencer before and after the game, it was nice to see
7) Ziller is right, people move when Spencer has the ball because they know he’ll try to get it to them, its the first option. People stand around when Tyreke has it because moving is largely an exercise in futility.
8) Landry and Hawes have to figure out how to get a defensive rebound, because Hawes will be Landry’s best friend on offense once they figure it out. We’re using Landry wrong, throwing him the ball in isolation and asking him to get points. Instead, we need to get him the ball off of motion so he can use his absurd quickness more effectively. Hawes will be the best guy at making that work eventually, but Tyreke needs to start looking for it.
9) I wasn’t a huge fan of the endless stream of isolation plays in the 4th quarter, but, hey, it worked so its tough to complain.
10) Easily Cisco’s best game so far
11) Landry worked his ass off on defense, and though Boozer ended up with a huge stat line, Millsap didn’t hurt us at all, after demolishing us last game, and other than the rebounding, I thought Landry did a good job
12) Deron Williams doesn’t like playing Evans at all; he didn’t have any fun last night.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
by Grasul on Feb 27, 2010 7:11 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
12
I noticed that too, Williams seemed very frustrated while guarding Tyreke. But then again, who isn’t?
Wasn't that great to see? Deron Williams getting frustrated with Tyreke!
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
yeah, I am thinking when the Jazz come to town
that they have Tyreke wear 815 730 721
That is 13 to the 8th power, because Evans has Deron’s number.
by betweentheeyes on Feb 27, 2010 9:51 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
Kapow
Rec’d
"Thou must give props" - Ice_9ine
by tomroadrunner on Feb 27, 2010 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
If I might, add on here
Omri hasn’t shot the 3 ball well for 2 months, which coincides with the Kings slump.
After shooting in the 40%-50% range in Nov-Dec, he’s been 32% in Jan & Feb. I think he’s lost some of his confidence, because when he isn’t making his 3’s he tends to take fewer shots everywhere on the court.
He had 3 good games after the All-Star weekend, against Bos, GSW, & Clips. But, in the last 3, he’s 1-6 from 3, and 5-17 overall. I can understand his 1-3 in 18mins against Utah because he had Kirilenko guarding him. But, he had Prince and Hill guarding him in the Det & Pho games. He’s averaging 28 mpg over 56 games, along with his other off court activities, so he might be hitting that rookie wall.
Except for the 6 minutes when Fesenko played, the Jazz used a 3 man rotation of Okur, Boozer & Millsap. And, most of the time Boozer and Millsap played together, Hawes defended Millsap. So, add Spencer & Landry on the list of reasons Millsap was was 1-9 and only 3pts.
The Kings outscored Utah in the paint. I haven’t seen the breakdown yet, but I’ll bet that Beno & Tyreke had the majority of those 50 pts. I guess Utah has no interior defense. (sarcastic snark here)
As to the iso’s, and especially concerning Landry, I’ve got to think that the lack of practice time had a lot to do with that. Tyreke is improving every game in his ability to recognize the open man when the double team comes, and we’re getting more assists closer to the basket instead of the long 2’s & 3’s, and that is promising indeed.
Tyreke is good, but have a funny feeling that his dominence over Williams had a little to due with Williams Quad injury. Will have to wait till next year to see, if I’m correct.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Feb 27, 2010 8:16 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I attended my first game of the year
Spencer was really active. It seemed like so many defensive stops in the paint ended up with his hands in the face of the shooter.
Beno can REALLY shoot. I have always thought of him as a perfect third guard, capable of playing the point, excellent shooter, and surpisingly good at getting to the rim.
I don’t think we are using Landry well. He was a bit of a black hole in the first half, and it did not seem like we were getting him the ball in a great position for him to score. I am sure that will come with time, but it is also noticable what an awful defensive rebounder he is. I do think a JT with a good attitude will provide a 4/5 rotation of Hawes/JT/Landry getting 90 percent of those 96 minutes for the rest of the year that is productive, and can help us decide what plan for the off season.
Reke is not a good passer, both Beno and Spencer are much better. He is trying really hard to be though, and that is what makes him unique, I think. He doesnt seem, even in his rookie year, to be just happy scoring twenty and getting a trophy.
I do not understand why Donte didnt play, and Omri is definitely in some sort of funk, and it seems mental/emotional. It has been a pretty unique spotlight for him this year, his frustration is palpable on the court.
I am very glad Cisco is back, I hope he can get consistent minutes for the rest of the year.
Nice summation.
Beno is a really good player. I think he has been getting a bad rap by a lot of people who think he should be traded. I think it is a carry-over from last season, when he did not play so well. When he is on, he is fantastic. Overall, he has been pretty consistent this season.
This is just an aside, but personally, I thought the post-game interview should have gone to Beno. He scored the most points and really carried the team. I understand why they chose Spencer, because of all the drama that has played out in the past week. But, I thought that was rewarding the drama, while overlooking who was the MVP of last night’s game, Beno. Beno should have gotten the recognition he deserved. Just my opinion.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
NBA.com has this as the title for the game summary
Here:
Active Hawes propels Kings past Jazz to end five-game slide
And, while Beno did have the most points, Spencer had 15, was the leading rebounder for the game, and was 2nd in assists 2 behind Evans.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Interesting, they chose Spencer also.
What can I say? All three, Beno, Tyreke, and Hawes, had great games.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
I disagree with you
Reke is not a good passer
"custer’s battle plan at little big horn was more coordinated than deandre jordan" ~ lchristmas
by CaliforniaJag on Feb 27, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
PW also mentioned D-Will's injury in his post game comments
He wasn’t 100% so let’s not get to carried away. Reke had a good game but D Will is still a top 5 PG in the league. Good point HT
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
williams sure does do a lot of crying to the refs
it was good to see the “flail in the lane fall down and hope for a whistle” not be rewarded there a couple times
the commenters over on slc dunk think more fesenko=a win
im not so sure but it was good to see landry going at millsap and tooling him
I love westphal again after the chest bump, still have some issues with the rotation (donte with a dnp—cd in particular) but you have to respect the way the man put the situation to rest
by lchristmas on Feb 27, 2010 8:37 AM PST via mobile reply actions
The biggest thing I wanted to see was
the Kings loosen up and have fun. The PW/Spence “routine” set a positive tone for the game. It was great to see them have a good time out there.
Great game to watch.
Ba-da
by Ba-Da Bing on Feb 27, 2010 8:44 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
He was a really talented guard when he played
and is kinda old to be jumping out of the gym. He can probably still handle and shoot better than most guards in the NBA.
by mayfieldcol on Feb 27, 2010 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
He actually had some hops.
And the jump shot never leaves the old guys.
"Thou must give props" - Ice_9ine
by tomroadrunner on Feb 27, 2010 10:54 AM PST up reply actions
BDB brings up a solid point
Winning will bring the smiles – but did the smiles bring the winning? This team has another 24 games to go so there will plenty of opporutnity for losses – will the team stick together until the end or return to the floor staring of the previous 20 games?
Another addition to the happiness side of the ledger: Donté Green with the towel waving, 1,000 Watt smiling fist pumping on the sidelines even though he got a dnp-cd. Have to love a guy that understands “team”.
The drama of a family – and this Kings team is young with the avuncular Paul Westphal at the helm will have highs and lows which are magnified under the microscope of media attention. Coach Westphal could not have scripted a better response to the week’s negatve attention than what was seen last night.
by betweentheeyes on Feb 27, 2010 8:55 AM PST up reply actions
Great win
Where was Donte though? When we beat the jazz thes 1st time this year Donte had a great game. I can’t complain though because we won, but he couldn’t even get 1 minute. I always think landry is rebounding well, then at the end of the game I look up and he’s like 5 haha. BEAT LA!!
by elSAVinator on Feb 27, 2010 8:54 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Beno's PT
Kings when Beno plays 25 Minutes or more: 16-20.
Kings when Beno plays less than 25 Minutes: 2-17.
Probably just a coincidence.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 8:58 AM PST reply actions
I dont think so
He brings so much to the offensive end of the floor, and he is capable of some great defensive plays even if his one on one defense is suspect at times.
Causation ...
I would assume that when Beno is shooting well, he gets more minutes. The “shooting well” is the boon for the Kings.
by Tom Ziller on Feb 27, 2010 9:51 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I should also read the chain of comments before I post.
Because Ziller just scoops me by about an hour and with twice the eloquence.
by mayfieldcol on Feb 27, 2010 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
I also think that Beno gets yanked when he is not playing well.
So maybe his minutes are an effect of his play and not a cause.
by mayfieldcol on Feb 27, 2010 10:59 AM PST up reply actions
SF Growing Pains
Nocioni
Kings when Nocioni plays 16 Minutes or more: 17-20.
Kings when Nocioni plays less than 16 Minutes: 2-17.
Casspi
Kings when Casspi plays 22 Minutes or more: 11-30.
Kings when Casppi plays less than 22 Minutes: 7-8.
Donte
Kings when Donte plays 21 Minutes or more: 5-21.
Kings when Donte plays less than 21 Minutes: 11-15.
Maybe Donte sat and Omri played only 18 minutes last night because Westphal was tired of losing. Of course Nocioni only played 12 minutes as well.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 9:16 AM PST reply actions
We're 1-0 when PW chest-bumps Spencer before a game
But you know, small sample size and all that.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
by Aykis16 on Feb 27, 2010 10:24 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Nothing like careful number manipulation to exaggerate a point
If you use Casspi’s season average for minutes (~28), rather than a magic number that helps your point the most, you get different results.
Kings when Casspi plays more than 28 minutes: 9-21
Kings when Casspi plays less than 28 minutes: 9-17
Their record is still slightly better when Casspi plays less minutes (35% vs. 30%), but given the variance involved with using a small sample size, this is very easy to chock up to coincidence.
It's not about looking for
“a magic number that helps your point the most.”
It’s about looking for numbers that allow you to draw useful conclusions.
But I agree that numbers can be manipulated to make a point, and just about everyone here is guilty of doing that at one time or another.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
The point is that you have the scientific method backwards
The honest way to look at statistics is to make all judgment calls (such as choosing which number of minutes to use) at the beginning, so that you don’t introduce any bias later on. In this case, you might not have had a bias either way, but you wanted to show something, and you chose 22 minutes because that would show the biggest difference, thus validating your analysis the most.
Nope
In this case, you might not have had a bias either way, but you wanted to show something, and you chose 22 minutes because that would show the biggest difference, thus validating your analysis the most.
Nope, I chose the data points because they had the most usefulness. That is where the correlation was. I am sure I could have excluded some outliers and increased the correlation, but I just used all the data, plus and minus. If you want to simply ignore those numbers, that may show more about your bias than mine.
I might also note that you’re in no big hurry to correct someone’s faulty data when it agrees with your opinion.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 1:27 PM PST up reply actions
Still not getting my point
Someone that looks hard enough for a correlation will usually you’ll find one, whether one actually exists or not. You were looking for a correlation, so you chose a number that showed one. The proper way to look at statistics is to choose some objective set of parameters up front, and then to look at the numbers to see IF a correlation exists.
What you did would be akin to deciding that the clothing that fans wear to the games impacts the results of the games, and then justifying it by finding some guy that has worn a yellow shirt for most of the Kings wins. Just because you found some data that supports a claim doesn’t mean that it’s the most “useful” data. Unless you mean useful to you.
And as far as my bias goes, I’m actually a much bigger fan of Donte than Casspi. I chose to point out the number you used for Casspi because I thought it was less fair.
I think you're caught in semantics
I’d compare the situation in some ways to describing the Kings recent woes as having lost five straight prior to last night and XX of their previous XX games and then zeroing in on the number that reflects most accurately what has happened. Yes, there is some analysis involved, but the end result it’s something more useful (at least to me) than your more arbitary approach.
I mean, after all, why cut the data in half then? Why don’t we cut in third or fourths and look for the most telling quadrant?
That’s not to say your idea is bad. In fact, the more time you have, I guess the more data you can look at is fine, although eventually it becomes analysis by paralysis.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 3:36 PM PST up reply actions
Btw CC
I’m listening to the audio and don’t hear anything too bad. Certainly nothing that makes me go “Oh my god he’s shitting on the fans.”
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Call it what you will
It was just part of the unfolding tapestry of Kevin Martin’s last days as a King then.
Never mind that Peaches’ full frontal assault the following week, fair or not, condoned by Kings brass or not, was a direct followup to those comments that suposedly didn’t even exist. Meanwhile, Amick and the StR editing crew were putting up as many dueling “He’s definitely not going to be traded” pieces as they could imagine and disavowing any possibility that the organization might in fact be willing to break up the smooth-sailing Kevin-Tyreke team and the blossoming team chemistry and the ongoing bonding with the hometown fans and the five-point games and the disappearing act against the Celtics and the injuries and the losses and the excuses and the growing whininess and the going through the motions on the court and the “I don’t give a shit” body language when he didn’t get the ball.
And those are just the parts that were clearly visible if you wanted to open your eyes. No, that was all part of the “hating” and “hallucination.” And then he was gone. I am sure the parting shots by the personal trainer and the agent caught the Kings folks by surprise, too.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 5:16 PM PST up reply actions
"StR editing crew"
Epic. I wonder if they share offices with Groupthink.
You’ve been pretty ticked off since we refused to teach you the secret handshake at StR night at ARCO I.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I agree!
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Feb 27, 2010 6:17 PM PST up reply actions
Good strategy
When you’re playing a losing hand, change the topic. Works every time.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 7:39 PM PST up reply actions
Losing hand
Everything is showing how crappy your analysis is, and section has the losing hand??
This is getting beyond pathetic. It’s just sad.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Yep, my Kevin Martin analysis was so crappy
that Kevin Martin is now a Houston Rocket.
I guess Geoff Petrie and Paul Westphal are also “pathetic.”
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 7:59 PM PST up reply actions
No
Your analysis of “if X player plays more than 12.57 minutes then the Kings are 56-1” is what’s crap
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
It really sucks when your favorite little whiner gets traded
and the people in charge just don’t see the “value” like you do. Doesn’t it?
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 8:17 PM PST up reply actions
What does have to do with anything?
and it really sucks to be a grown man that needs to come into an online community to only stir the pot because of the need for attention, isn’t it?
Real sad.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Kind of like Artest
Still bitter arent we
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Feb 27, 2010 8:40 PM PST up reply actions
Red herring
This Diacussion had nothing to do with KM being traded, it was over your “convenient” minute per game selections that give you the statistical result you want.
A “look over there” distraction only proves your previous point less valid.
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Feb 27, 2010 8:40 PM PST up reply actions
You're the one that brought up the conspiracy theories
StR editing crew, treating this Phoenix tape like it was Zapruder film. You’re a wacky funster, that’s what you are, you wacky funster, you.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
No, that was your alter ego
that brought up the conspiracy theory. I just said what Kevin said and how he played on Feb. 5 (in other words, like crap).
The Latest Excuse
Now Kevin is blaming the fans at Arco for his poor performance. I was at the game last night, and he looked like a zombie. Strictly going through the motions.
If he can’t play at home and he misses a lot of games due to injury, what exactly are you getting for $11 million a year?
I’m not in the "trade him just to trade him" camp, but this marriage is headed for breakup sooner or later. If he can moved by the deadline in a deal that positions the Kings well for the future, I am all for it.
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 6, 2010 1:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And that’s what ended up getting done.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 8:14 PM PST up reply actions
Anything Dan Fegan says publicly is worth as much as me showing you the TP I just wiped my ass with.
David Thorpe made quality points, but the reality is that I think Thorpe was tactfully saying that the organization and Kevin had moved on by that point. Given the way things usually end in acrimony when players of Kevin’s caliber (or better) and profile have been traded the way Kevin was, I’ll take this every time and then some. The problems of the Kings were neither Kevin’s and he wasn’t the solution moving forward. Kevin Martin fans will have a lot of problems with that sentence, but since when I do give a shit what other people think?
On the other hand, what he said was that it was better for him to be on the road, and that the team was struggling in part due to the trade rumors. He wasn’t the only player who said it; he just was the player who ended up getting traded. He certainly didn’t say anything over the top. It sounded to me like a guy who had been boo’d at home and the marriage was over.
If you want to keep accusing StR “editors” of group think go ahead. You’ll get about as far as you have so far in saying that Kevin told the fans to go fuck themselves after getting boo’d. And, I might remind that the 3 games on the road showed that Kevin Martin isn’t that mentally weak. He put up good numbers in all 3 games and helped the Kings to 2 wins against 2 bottom feeding East teams. I didn’t believe that Kevin was going to be traded, but, given what was said afterwards, it made total sense to me. And, NOBODY here is a bigger Kevin Martin fan than I. NOBODY. NOT A SINGLE PERSON ON THIS SITE OR ANYWHERE ELSE. Given the intensity and attention Kevin gets, that’s saying something. There are many others who have the feelings and opinions towards Kevin that I do, but certainly there isn’t any more love for him than what I got. Not even close. Nor is the love someone else has for Kevin’s game any less than I do. It’s not an either/or situation. It’s, and/and situation. I’ll be deathly disappointed if there isn’t loud ass cheers on Arco when he comes back in April. It may be more disappointing to me than any on-court loss.
You can blame any one of those things on Kevin that you did in your 2nd paragraph, but frankly you are the one hallucinating. Kevin was trying to win, and so were the other Kings players. I didn’t really see a guy pouting, but then again I’m not as objective about Kevin as you are right CC?
I’m amazed this conversation will get played out multiple times over multiple months on this site. it just never seems to end.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Damn, I knew I forgot something ...
Let’s make that:
Meanwhile, Amick and the StR editing crew were putting up as many dueling "He’s definitely not going to be traded" pieces as they could imagine and disavowing any possibility that the organization might in fact be willing to break up the smooth-sailing Kevin-Tyreke team and the blossoming team chemistry and the ongoing bonding with the hometown fans and the five-point games and the disappearing act against the Celtics and the injuries and the losses and the excuses and the growing whininess and the going through the motions on the court and the "I don’t give a shit" body language when he didn’t get the ball and the poor decisions and general choking in crunch time and the “great value” contract.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 7:44 PM PST up reply actions
It's not semantics
It’s the difference between objectively looking at data in order to find the truth, and purposefully manipulating data to make it say what you want it to say. Very clear and obvious difference.
Also, using their season average isn’t necessarily the only way to look at it – that was just the easiest, most logical idea that came to mind at the time. I’d be open to other suggestions as well, as long as they don’t involve choosing a method based on which one produces the results that you like the best.
Charlie, he's not going to get it
We all agree you’ve done an awesome job in trying to explain the point, which many agree with. At this point, you’re just wasting your time. Great job with all the posts, you have more patience that many of us.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Ha, thanks
You’re wrong about the patience part, though. I’m getting a beer and watching Zombieland before I rip my hair out.
...and welcome to Groupthink,
the gateway to the StR editing crew.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Feb 27, 2010 5:36 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree!
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Feb 27, 2010 6:17 PM PST up reply actions
Ed's right Charlie
For anyone paying attention, you’ve delivered a tremendous education in the proper way to analyze data objectively.
But a person has to want to learn to have a chance, and that desire isn’t there in this case.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
Seeking the truth
It’s the difference between objectively looking at data in order to find the truth, and purposefully manipulating data to make it say what you want it to say.
That’s your opinion, and you’re certainly welcome to it. All I can say is you’re going to be a busy guy if you hold everyone who posts here to that same standard.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 7:36 PM PST up reply actions
At first I was like "yeah, that"
but coolcatreport has a good point. He was looking for the point where it becomes less efficient for these players to be in the game. If Casspi gets tired after 22 minutes, but you use 28 minutes just because it’s his season average, he’d be good for 22 minutes and tired for 6. Ideally you’d like to play every player to the limit of their effectiveness and not a minute more, and that’s the number CCR was trying to find.
"custer’s battle plan at little big horn was more coordinated than deandre jordan" ~ lchristmas
by CaliforniaJag on Feb 27, 2010 11:56 AM PST up reply actions
But that's not the point he was making
He was essentially stating that the less minutes Omri & Donte get, the more likely the Kings are to win. If you are objectively just trying to investigate whether or not there is a correlation between the Kings win/loss record and the number of minutes a player gets, then you don’t choose a number that shows the best results – you choose a number that makes the most sense for the situation before you get a peek at the results. In my opinion, that number would be their season average (or median if it was easier to find).
If he was trying to figure out the optimum number of minutes for a certain player to play based on win/loss record, then I object to that type of analysis for entirely different reasons. Mostly that it’s very crude, and there are too many variables that it doesn’t account for.
by Charlieb on Feb 27, 2010 12:19 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
very well stated
for all of your posts.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
Fair enough
"custer’s battle plan at little big horn was more coordinated than deandre jordan" ~ lchristmas
by CaliforniaJag on Feb 27, 2010 1:27 PM PST up reply actions
Love the W, but ball movement and boards are needed.
Reke = awesome, but he’s got to learn that idea of giving the ball up to get it back. Reke should get the ball in iso mode when things are tight in the 4th, but beyond that he should move the ball and move his ass, just as TZ said.
And shouldn’t Reke plant himself in the post more often? No guard big enough to handle him.
Landry needs the ball in the post too, but he’s definitely a one dimensional player. Can score up a storm, and useful in clutch situations.
Seems like Omri has hit a rookie wall….. finally. So much attention paid to him, he’s got to be a bit exhausted. Keep improving Kings and find a way, somehow, to REBOUND!!!
Omri has been off lately
but what has impressed me with him is that he still tries his shot – the guy is not lacking in confidence – and he has shown the ability to get to the basket and create his own shot many times. Further, he rebounds very well and seems to get a good amount of steals, he has good hands. His stealing the ball on the 2 on 1 fast break was a highlight last night. His cross over down the lane and slam was also impressive. The kid has skill and will turn into a starter within the next two seasons.
by betweentheeyes on Feb 27, 2010 9:35 AM PST up reply actions
Reke is improving on the idea of "giving the ball up to get it back."
I thought it was noticeable in last night’s game. I watched him passing the ball out much quicker, when he saw that he was going to be double/triple teamed, rather than trying to force his way to the rim. I also saw him looking more for others to make plays. Even Westphal commented on these improvements in the post-game interview.
Agree that Omri may have hit the proverbial rookie wall. It is pretty understandable with all the attention he has garnered this season.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
i disagree that Tyreke needs to work out of the post more...
he already spends a good amount of time there. It’s hard to ask Tyreke to both pass more and post more. Tyreke still needs to learn how to trust his teammates and not isolated himself so much on the offense. That way the bigs can be around to grab more boards instead of clearing out of the lane. Let Landry/JT/Hawes play the post more until Tyreke can develop a mid range fadeaway jumper.
at the game
Got to see the game last night with the wife and kids. Free tickets keep falling into my lap. My 9 year saved his allowance and had to get a Landry jersey. Good sign.
As has been mentioned, you have to hand it to PW for the pregrame intro with Spence. That was a classic moment.
Spence played great, if he brings 75-80% of that effort every night, our interior just got a hell of a lot better.
Landry more than held his own against 2 good power forwards in Boozer and Milsap.
The combos of Beno and Evans and Evans and Garcia were fantastic. As I have been stating on this site for a long time now, when Evans has someone who can help him with the offense, he and the team get better. Beno was brillant last night. In Garcia’s limited minutes he was great too. Garcia and Beno just compliment Evans better than Martin.
I missed Donte. Missed Omri too, not much from him either. In fact not much from the SF position last night.
That effort last night was what we seeing the 30 first games when we got all excited, hope it stays that way for the rest of the year.
by noreboundsnorings on Feb 27, 2010 9:33 AM PST reply actions
JT vs. Landry
One impression I take from this game beside Tyreke toying with one of the Top 3 PGs in the NBA and schooling him inside and out with relentless moves, was Carl Landry and his 40 minutes on the floor. He was not a monster down low, as 5 rebounds will attest, but he was a presence, in terms of positioning, and creating defensive resistance, and offensive spacing. Not exciting, but effective!
There’s something to be said for not efffin up. Make the team earn what they get! In a 4 point game, dumb plays are costly, momentum changers. Cheap fouls, and silly TOs are giving the opponent a free pass to a win. In 40 minutes, Landry had only 2 fouls and 1 TO against 2 steals. He made the Jazz earn it!! I like it. He is really comfortable in the paint. He belongs there, like Bar Rafaeli on the SI swimsuit cover, it just feels right. A PF who doesn’t harp at the refs or commit mental miscues? After watching JT bumble and stumble for two years, who knew this was even possible!?
As a comparison, JT has NOT played 40 minutes once in the last 25 games. He has averaged about 27 minutes, 2 TOs and 4 fouls a game. If JT plays the same minutes last night as Carl, he commits at least 4 out-of-position or bail-out fouls, and good for 3 TOs (travel, offensive charge, a pass to no one, etc). In a four point game, that’s the difference between victory and defeat.
Welcome to the team, Carl.
JT probably has more boards in that time
and around the same amount of points (on more shots and less efficient shooting too).
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
yes, but bench_blob can't ever pass up an opportunity to take his shots at JT
Landry’s turnovers per 36 minutes this year: 2.1
Jason Thompson’s this year: 2.2
Landry’s assists per 36: 1.0
JT’s assist per 36: 1.9
So JT turns the ball over at roughly the same rate but is roughly twice as likely to get an assist. JT’s a much better rebounder and Landry is a much better scorer. Nothing like watching a game and looking for things to reinforce your preconceived bias’ though.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
No Kidding
I still see JT being a starter and Landry coming off the bench, regardless of how many minutes they end up playing.
by MichaelMack on Feb 27, 2010 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
Landry PER-20.84
Thompson PER-14.27
Nothing like a little good ol’ fashioned homerism. Thompson is definitely grades below.
There's no question that's true
Landry is a much better player than JT, no doubt about it. But its not because he commits less turnovers, its because he’s a much better scorer, as I said above.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
How is it homerism if both players play for the same team?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I don't have any issue with Landry taking JT's time
I’d just like to see JT get a fair shake is all, and bench_blob’s got an axe to grind.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
I was just taking exception
to bench_blob’s ongoing eviceration of JT. JT didn’t even play last night and bench_blob felt the need to continue his relentless theme of ripping JT.
JT’s got plenty of things to be ripped for, but saying Landry turns the ball over less is just factually untrue.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
I like JT, but he needs a lot of work on his post game. He’s a great rebounder and could be a real solid player. But I would prefer to see Landry get minutes and help our efficiency down low.
I think JT is miscast, at least at this point as a post up guy
he needs to be a really skilled energy guy for now, I agree with you his post up game is nowhere near game ready other than maybe once or twice a night.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
I'm with you Gras
I just hate when to make a point about someone being better, we have to crap on the other guy.
They are all KINGS people. Stop craping on your own players.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Thank You Gras.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Landry
also knows how to play offensively in the low post. There was one play last night where a wing passed him the ball down low and took a while to cut by him and make it a 1 on 1 situation. Landry was patient, waited for the play to develop, then took the guy and got fouled. Smart basketball. He also has an outside game. Not quite David West like with respect to shooting range yet, but aiming in the same direction.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
Hawes & PW fiving and bumping...
That was really a cool thing to see… and the win made it even better. I guess I was wrong again and the benching of Hawes was a pivotal factor in Spencer stepping up his game last night… beginning to eat my crow now… pass the pepper…
Hard work beats talent when talent is hardly working...
The pregame antics
… were contrived and admittedly rehearsed. But it also speaks the actual depth and level of PW and Hawes relationship that they would do something like that.
More telling was PW and Hawes going right to each other at the end of the game. It was a “now you got it” moment from PW and a “now I understand” moment from Hawes.
It'll be a good part for the eventual "Kings of the Court" Trilogy
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
bench is right on
It is amazing how 3-4 possessions can mean the difference between winning or losing. Landry even hit two big free throws at the end when we started to miss some that I thought would cost us the game. I was beginning to count the number of games we have lost because we could not make our free throws in the final two minutes. Cleveland and Lakers???
Having Landry in the post at crunch time with the ability to hit crunch time free throws will be huge. I remember seeing a stat posted a few days ago. In the 4th quarter, he is in the top 5 in scoring? Ring a bell?
by noreboundsnorings on Feb 27, 2010 10:02 AM PST reply actions
I loved that too, watching Landry hit those FT's in crunch time.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
Landry definitely brings us scoring in the 4th quarter down low which we needed
and Kevin Martin is doing the same thing in the 4th quarters scoring from the perimeter for the Rockets since he got there, looks like a good situation for both guys.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
by Grasul on Feb 27, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Not sure about Kevin's first three games
All losses, but last night:
- 1st quarter: 8 points.
- 2nd quarter: 9 points.
- 3rd quarter: 10 points.
- 4th quarter: 6 points (none in the last seven minutes)
In the last seven minutes, as the Spurs cut a 13-point deficit to three before Aaron Brooks made four free throws, Kevin was 0-4 with two turnovers and had two of his shots blocked.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
Yes a win!
Against a really good team. I do agree that we need to find Landry more and use him better. Everyone who played had an excellent game except our Israeli star. Somethings up with Casspi recently but Im not worried. He’ll rain 3s with ease on Sunday. Go Casspi. Go kings. BTW does anybody else hate the butch Ronni Deutch and her commercial? I do. No offense.
Sure we could’ve got the 1st pick of the draft, but apparently 1st isn’t always the best. They said that Griffin was the man to have for the 2009 draft. Now where is the pick of the draft? He’s in Sacramento and catching everyone’s eyes. God am I so glad they gave us 4th pick. I love Tyreke and what he’s done. Have fun enjoying your ROTY award Tyreke.
by MexicanSKFan2Death on Feb 27, 2010 10:24 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Couple of points
although I was only able to 1/2 watch the game while trying to hold a conversation with my wife at an Applebee’s. Anyways I think Omri’s slump is fine because as said here teams are paying a lot more attention to him which takes focus off other players. He will learn to play through it over time. Tryreke, Beno, & Hawes need to start & play together. With them you have 3 facilitators which seems to work really well. As I’ve said before I don’t care if Tyreke IaPG or NaPG Beno is NaPG gaurd either. More of a combo or scoring point but when he is agressive they work really well with eachother. Landry seems to be a good defender & scorer but a terrible rebounder. I like having him on the team but as long as we have an inconsistent rebounding C like Spencer I feel Landry will have to ultimately be used as a 3rd big off the bench. That means if JT doesn’t improve he might have to go if we get another PF through free agency or the draft. I really hate saying that because JT was my favorite King last year but it is reality. I don’t know what happened. Maybe defenses are focusing on him but he has to learn how to adjust & he hasn’t been able to do that in 3 months of starting.
I love beating dead horses.
by allbenji's on Feb 27, 2010 10:42 AM PST via mobile reply actions
LOL
"custer’s battle plan at little big horn was more coordinated than deandre jordan" ~ lchristmas
by CaliforniaJag on Feb 27, 2010 12:02 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Tyreke and Beno play pretty well together, Hawes and Beno seem to play well together also.
I like the line up of
Hawes
Landry
casspi
udrih
Evans.
I think we need Spencers passing on offense for sure. Also if Evans pounds the rock a little to much, PW can put the ball in Benos hands. The ball movement is better with Beno and spencer in the line up.
Another person on-board for this lineup!
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
When Hawes ipasses out of the High Post...
Beno’s the only one who can consistently hit a jumper (hopefully Garcia will start to as well)
Switch Casspi and Nocioni
and I agree completely.
Hawes, Landry, Nocioni, Udrih, Evans is definitely an offensive-minded starting five, but has a lot of toughness as well nad gives us the best chance to be competitive.
Off the bench: Garcia, Ime, Casspi, Donte, May, Dorsey (later JT).
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2010 1:49 PM PST up reply actions
Why do you think can't Landry is so soft on the glass?
Timing, knowing your angles (brockman’s got this down), boxing out (watch Kevin love play and you’ll see how much of a difference this makes), and effort are the key to rebounding well. It’s hard to teach timing and angles…it’s more a natural skill.
I’d say that Landry knows the timing and angles of the ball since he get’s plenty of rebounds on the offensive side. He’s watching the rim so he has an idea where the ball is going. Could it be that he just focuses all his energy on the offensive end? He grabs plenty of boards on the offensive glass, so maybe he just really wants to score. On the defensive end maybe he’s might not be watching the rim and running to the rim because he’s just not as interested and just wants to get back on offense.
I wish we had a clause in his contract for him to gets an extra 250k or something for each rb he averages over 6 (this is setting the bar low too). If he averages 8rbs he’ll pocket an extra 1mil a season. I’m going to continue keeping track of how our team rebounds with Landry in the lineup. So far we’re -9.25rbs (34.75-44) w/ Landry and +0.7 before Landry (43-42.3). As much as I love his crunch time scoring I just hate getting killed on the glass.
One of your best writeups, TZ
"I hate all sports as rabidly as a person who likes sports hates common sense."
-H.L. Mencken
WaBeno brings it out of him.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
The play of the game to me
Prior to the D-Will slip in the last seconds, the Kings played some great, albeit unorganized, D. I don’t recall the specific circumstances but all of sudden every player began rotating to cover different people and you could just see the effort at trying to get to their man, even double teaming a couple Jazz players, and just running around to get a stop.
Can’t find video of it but that whole sequence forced Deron to drive with the ball and the he turn it over. Reke came down and hit the bucket to win it after.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
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