Patience, or Why Everyone Else Wants Kevin Martin
Kevin Martin is quickly becoming the hottest name on the mouths of rumor-mongers. The "why?" isn't hard to understand -- the Kings have continued to lose, Martin and Tyreke Evans have alternately had off nights together, shooting guard is a surprisingly star-bereft position outside the top level, and Martin has a long history of scoring prolifically and efficiently. Essentially, other teams really want Kevin Martin. Why shouldn't we?
The losses are hard to take, trust me. (Hey, I'm the guy who posted the vacant Iguodala poll the morning after a brutal loss.) But -- while Martin had been off-par since returning -- it's a conglomerate of causes settling this denouement, if this in fact a denouement and not just the mountain pass on the way to glory.
David Stern is going for blood in 2011, and that must play into any team's 2010 decisions. Stern and the owners, in their first proposal to the union before an All-Star Weekend bargaining session, have reportedly pushed for a 30 percent plus reduction of player salary plus a hard cap. Who knows what will actually be approved. But the tone is such that players will suffer, which means in 2011-12 and beyond, player salaries will be lower, and the cap will be lower. There'd likely be a transition period, but teams with cap space in 2011 will be in the best position to capitalize on the New World Order.
That's why I have trouble endorsing the committment of salary beyond 2011 for all but the most electric players. Chris Bosh? You pay him whatever it takes. Amare Stoudemire? Maybe not -- not if it means you can't add anyone, or that you can't pay Jason Thompson or Donte Greene when the time comes. Andre Iguodala? A fine player -- a great defensive player. But expensive, for a long time, possibly outside the range of a transition period. That could murder.
Martin is signed to what for now is a fair deal; under a worst-case scenario -- a low, hard cap in 2011-12 with no transition period -- Martin would be considered "expensive" for two seasons. But under no circumstances would his contract be considered crippling (insomuch as some 67 players have higher salaries as of today -- that should balloon this summer). Barring a Redd (God forbid), Martin isn't going to be an anchor. Players in play in the Trade Martin game? You can't say that with assurance.
This is part of the reason Samuel Dalembert (an expensive defender, signed through 2011) is more attractive to me than Josh Howard (an expiring contract) -- I don't really want the Kings to have cap space this summer, because the temptation to use it could be too great if a good player gets shut out among the max-offering teams. Yes, I'd like a few more good players. We need them. But good players will be available in 2011, and they will almost certainly be cheaper. An artificial price cap is coming in '11. Can't we be patient?
And so it is with Martin. This team won't be making the playoffs. It's still about the future. Let's be a bit patient. The trade deadline is an artificial deadline for making a decision on Martin. The Kings can, and should, ignore it.
***
Wassily Kandinsky, Composition VII
9 recs |
194 comments
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Comments
How can you be so coherent this early in the morning?
I have trouble being coherent at any point in a 24hr period. Well written per usual… thanks for the enlightenment.
Hard work beats talent when talent is hardly working...
by kromeace on Feb 8, 2010 5:50 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
good stuff Z
The NBA: "Where 27 free throws happens"
by lodisacfan on Feb 8, 2010 6:38 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Great read
Anyone think that a 30% reduction in salaries to the players will translate into any serious reduction in ticket prices?
by TheFifthMookie on Feb 8, 2010 9:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
One would hope so.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
by Slam_Dunk on Feb 8, 2010 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone know...
Assuming the owners get this type of arrangement, might there be a possibility of having some temporary flexibility grandfathered into it? If you’re a team that has the type of contracts that Boston does at the time this goes into effect, there’s no way you’re going to be able to afford to have the minimum amount of players.
I understand in a couple of years. Boston may be in a very different situation, but it’s hard to imagine the league allowing a circumstance where a very good (and entertaining) team is somehow required to be broken up.
Boston is just an example that popped into my head. I’m on no sleep, not sure if I’m asking this clearly enough, so if you have any questions, go.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.
by andy sims on Feb 8, 2010 6:42 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Assumption: transition
The assumption from various observers has been that there will be a 1-3 year transition period, or, in other words, that the cap will not get hard overnight. (TWSS, regrettably.) Whatever the case, I think there will be exceptions so that teams can get to 12 players. But it there’s no transition, or if its short, there will be blood in places like Boston and L.A.
I bet there will be something like the Allan Houston Rule too, where teams can expunge a player from their cap. (The Houston Rule, which wasn’t even used on Houston, allowed teams to waive one player whose contract would then remain on the cap, but not be subject to luxury tax, for those who don’t remember the halycon days of 2005.)
by Ziller on Feb 8, 2010 8:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Those options seem pretty sensible. Gracias!
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.
by andy sims on Feb 8, 2010 8:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There has also been mention of retroactively lowering contracts
which makes no sense at all, a contract is binding. The dollar figure bandied about for the future cap is $45M and talk of making the basketball related income (BRI) drop from the current 57% to 50% or lower.
The first salvo in the negotation process is the low balling of the cap by the owners, and already Derek Fisher of the Players’ Union has retorted with a statement including the term “ludicrous”. There is supposed to be a more intense discussion with Stern and the NBA Player’s Union at the All-Star break.
All of this talk may make the current trading deadline waters become too choppy to navigate. Dumping salary may continue on as the primary directive from last year. The Kings have already fulfilled their promise for a better and more exciting team. An Arena deal is only at the discussion stage, though more advanced and realistic proposals have been presented.
As PookeyGure mentioned over the weekend and I agree, a hard cap would be a disadvantage to small market teams. Much to discuss here.
by betweentheeyes on Feb 8, 2010 8:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I've been saying that for a long time bte.
It’s just a dipshit like me is only looking to upset the herd so it must be that someone like Woj is right. There really is a problem with the NBA salary structure. It’s completely out of wack!
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Adonal Foyle called it ludicrous actually
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Feb 8, 2010 10:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Which is ironic
Because so was his contract.
by MichaelMack on Feb 8, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Adonal Foyle didn't make the Warriors offer him that contract.
They could have chosen to not negotiate or have a harder stance. This is the same team that did sign Erick Dampier to an unreasonable contract, too.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 12:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
just like the fact that Amare and Haywood won't make Team A and Team B offer them ridiculous contracts as well
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 12:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
But somehow it will become their fault if they’re hurt and do not perform up to expectations. This is all political posturing. I’m curious whether the players can take it, or whether they’ll cave in. Almost everyone will assume the players to cave in based on past history. And, it’s easy to see why.
On the other hand, the players have a chance to take a real stand and they should. Be interesting to see how this all transpires.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 12:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It is ludicrous.
Of course, the flip side to that is Foyle made a huge dollar amount off his being 7 foot too. (Which is how Foyle will end up being discredited. Yet, Foyle didn’t sign himself to that contract.)
I’ll quote Woj here:
The owners want to take a far greater percentage of the basketball-related income. They want to pay millions less for maximum deals and shorten contracts. Most of all, they want a hard salary cap and assurances that protect themselves against a diminished economy and, well, themselves. Everything is hurtling toward a 2011 lockout, a negotiation that’ll likely feel far more like a standoff.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 12:24 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Perfect quote
That is as honest as it gets
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Feb 8, 2010 12:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's a fun quiz question: Who did the Knicks actually use their Allan Rule option on?
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 8:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jerome Williams.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
wow i actually thought it was Steve Francis for some reason
congrats, you win my dignity
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 10:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I know other names, but I'm not sure they are worth remembering.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 12:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You can see which players were amnestied here.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 12:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you just compare basketball to The Great War?
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
by iashwash on Feb 8, 2010 7:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
More like
2011 CBA negotiations:Great War.
(Actually, Antietam might be more reasonable.)
by Ziller on Feb 8, 2010 8:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Antietam might be more reasonable.
This should be loads of fun for NBA fans then
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Feb 8, 2010 10:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Reserved for 48-point home losses
Actually, I think I made an exception for another bad game in the past …
by Ziller on Feb 8, 2010 10:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well-reasoned account of looking at the bigger financial picture.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
by Slam_Dunk on Feb 8, 2010 8:39 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Lottery Pick
3 wins, 20 losses in their last 23 games. With or without K-Mart, this team is a lottery pick. I hope Petrie gets who he wants?
by 1 and done on Feb 8, 2010 8:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Patience
I’m not sure the average Kings fan has enough patience, and I also think attendance and the Arena talks will factor into the equation.
I think if the team makes a significant deal such as the Martin-plus for Iggy-Daly and the team gels a bit down the stretch and wins 30 or close and shows some promise for next year and still has a fairly high pick, the team will be able to buy some time, keep fans coming to the games and the Arena talks moving ahead while still taking the franchise in the right direction.
I think the Maloofs are going to roll the dice, because the last thing they probably feel they can afford to do to do at this point is stand pat and play these cards through the end of the season.
It also wouldn’t surprise me to see a second trade that bundles up some our smaller, more expendable pieces for another star or an expiring. We have a few too many players from 3-12 who are basically at the same skill level or close, and it might be better to tighten up the roster. Better to have eight guys who are happy and 4-5 who are pissed than to have a whole roster of players who think they should be getting more burn.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 8, 2010 8:44 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
having lots of flexibility in 2011 doesn't necessarily mean holding on to Kevin Martin
See trade here, also posted in this week’s asinine thread.
by LPKingsFan on Feb 8, 2010 9:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Because of the Super Bowl hype...
I thought that this story was somewhat lost in the shuffle this weekend. 30% across the board cut in salaries, an essentially “hard” cap, and a significant reduction in the number of guranteed years per contract. Wow…
I thought that the most telling quote of the article was as follows:
"It isn’t just a matter of the union losing," one Eastern Conference GM said. "It’s a matter of how badly they lose."
The owners learned during the last lockout that if they let Stern do all of the talking and they stay silent/unified, they will win. There are too many factions among the players, too many agents, too many knuckleheads who will pop off to some local beat writer how he can’t manage to feed his family with a 30% cut in his 6 million dollar salary. Ownership will largely get what they want, making some small concessions to the players, meaning that the salary structure of the league will fundamentally change.
With that said, Ziller’s point is an important one. The Kings can, and probably should, make some kind of a deal. K9’s contract is a tool to be used, either to draw another player to the Kings or to rid themselves of an unwanted contract. But salary flexability could be unbelievably valuable in the next couple of years, so taking on any contract that runs longer than that has to be weighed heavily against the coming reality that is the next CBA and the financial mess that it will create for many teams in the NBA…
"Granted, this is not a great situation, but when all you have is lemons, you add some vodka to dull the pain..."
by Mcamp49 on Feb 8, 2010 8:45 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I must admit I didn't expect to see art this early in the morning.
Good taste Ziller. You even got me to wikipedia Wassily Kandinsky.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 8:51 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Kadinsky
draws up the pick and roll defense for the Kings.
by betweentheeyes on Feb 8, 2010 8:58 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
And Rothko
Draws up the plays in crunch time:

by nbrans on Feb 8, 2010 9:06 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Thank goodness we have the greatest 20th Century abstract painters on the coaching staff
Otherwise the players might look confused out there.
by nbrans on Feb 8, 2010 9:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I generally look at the sophistication of Kadinsky v. Rothko
as a TZiller graph (Kadinsky) v. my ability to chart (Rothko)
by betweentheeyes on Feb 8, 2010 11:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you taking a huge dig at Rothko, or am I reading that wrong?
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 8, 2010 12:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
abstract expressionism is a commentary onto itself
no, I was being self depricating.
by betweentheeyes on Feb 8, 2010 12:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rothko drink-o the booze.
Lower their expectations and rise to met them
by left hand on Feb 8, 2010 10:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like an upside down Guiness
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 10:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I believe that was the alternate title for that piece
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 8, 2010 12:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wassiliy likey the mushrooms.
Lower their expectations and rise to met them
by left hand on Feb 8, 2010 10:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If there is a bargain to be had by waiting an extra year
I’m sure they’ll do that. I just hope there is not another locked-out season. I would always rather have a losing season then no season at all. . .
Ba-da
by Ba-Da Bing on Feb 8, 2010 8:53 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
If the players don't cut a deal before a lockout...
they will get killed. The owners will have zero incentive to bargain, and they will hold the players feet to the flames of an extraordinarily tough new CBA. Ownership knows they will win – it is just a matter of how much they want to run up the score. Hopefully, Hunter and the player reps know this as well…
"Granted, this is not a great situation, but when all you have is lemons, you add some vodka to dull the pain..."
by Mcamp49 on Feb 8, 2010 9:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
On the other hand, we have owners who stand to lose a considerable amount of $ if there is a lockout. Aside from their staff payrolls, and their stadium leases, a lost season will cost them dearly in terms of future attendance (see early-mid 1990s MLB).
by sactown on Feb 8, 2010 9:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Have you seen an NBA arena lately?
Most are already 2/3 full at best. I don’t disagree that the owners will lose if there is a lockout, but the players would be bringing a knife to a gun fight. The players have shown that they can’t withstand a protracted work stoppage – why would the owners really compromise their position when they don’t have much to lose and have all the leverage?
"Granted, this is not a great situation, but when all you have is lemons, you add some vodka to dull the pain..."
by Mcamp49 on Feb 8, 2010 9:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's the perception.
Not the reality.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 9:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Looking strictly at attendance figures...
You are correct. Ticket purchases for teams around the league is still strong, although down a between 1-2% this season. But watching games from around the country, I can’t help but feel that many of those people who bought tickets are staying home, costing the teams other revenue in the form of parking, concessions, etc. This has to be concerning to ownership to say the least…
As for the owners “sense” of leverage, while a lockout would suck for them too, they are very unified in the respect that they are one greedy bunch who have deep pockets. The players just haven’t proven that they can either stay unified or withstand a prolonged lockout. And until they do, the owners hold the hammer…
"Granted, this is not a great situation, but when all you have is lemons, you add some vodka to dull the pain..."
by Mcamp49 on Feb 8, 2010 10:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ownership is always concerned.
They always want more of everything. So do the players, and so do the fans. The fans aren’t obligated to watch the NBA, the owners aren’t obligated to buy teams, and the (lucky players) aren’t obligated to make anywhere from 6-10 figures.
The NBA is not an obligation. It’s a luxury. No more or less. It just happens to be the luxury of my choice.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 12:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"...but the players would be bringing a knife to a gun fight"
Solution: Gilbert Arenas, Chief Negotiator.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 8, 2010 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Funny and true...
He doesn’t have anything to do for the next 8 months anyways…
"Granted, this is not a great situation, but when all you have is lemons, you add some vodka to dull the pain..."
by Mcamp49 on Feb 8, 2010 3:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Most owners are better off, than the
players….many of those guys live paycheck to paycheck, which is unfathomable.
by Smills91 on Feb 8, 2010 10:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not my personal opinion but still ...
David Stern is going for blood in 2011, and that must play into any team’s 2010 decisions. Stern and the owners, in their first proposal to the union before an All-Star Weekend bargaining session, have reportedly pushed for a 30 percent plus reduction of player salary plus a hard cap. Who knows what will actually be approved. But the tone is such that players will suffer, which means in 2011-12 and beyond, player salaries will be lower, and the cap will be lower. There’d likely be a transition period, but teams with cap space in 2011 will be in the best position to capitalize on the New World Order.
Taken this to the logical extreme would suggest that Martin for an expiring would be a viable option, wouldn’t it?
Hope everyone enjoys ripping me to shreds on this one :)
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 9:06 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Taking that to the logical extreme
would be saying that it’s not worth signing Lebron James to a deal that extends beyond 2011. In the case with Lebron and Kevin Martin, the answer is no, the extreme interpretation does not make sense.
by Charlieb on Feb 8, 2010 9:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
not exactly
I would think that Lebron, nomatter what, even in the extreme, would still be worth the max because he is that good of a player. When you star paying the Non Super star players near max money though, I would think that it technically wouldn’t be as much bang for your buck.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 9:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But he would be getting 30% more than the new max
And whatever team signed him would have that much less to surround him with quality players.
"And I never said I don’t like KMart. I just don’t think the duo is good for the team. They are essentially two of the same player"
Sammyp831.
by SavageBeast on Feb 8, 2010 9:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
eh even in my extreme logic i think taking that risk with Lebron is a lot better than Kevin Martin
I think i would be willing to try and put spare parts around Lebron and see what happens if that were the case.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 10:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yo won't hear me arguing
that LeBron isn’t worth whatever he is paid. Only that if salaries are chopped, the new max will be significantly lower than the old one.
"And I never said I don’t like KMart. I just don’t think the duo is good for the team. They are essentially two of the same player"
Sammyp831.
by SavageBeast on Feb 8, 2010 11:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
If salaries really were cut by 30% (which I don’t think they will.) Martin’s deal would be cut just like everyone else’s.
"And I never said I don’t like KMart. I just don’t think the duo is good for the team. They are essentially two of the same player"
Sammyp831.
by SavageBeast on Feb 8, 2010 9:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i didn't read it that way
I am not sure if they can retroactively cut contracts, i was under the impression the 30% was in reference to what teams can offer in the future. Can we get a definitive answer? Or am I just the only one who read that wrong?
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 9:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That would make a big difference
Although all you could really cut would be fixed numbers: MLE, max, first round rookies, etc. Don’t know how you could cut actual salary numbers by 30% since those are negotiated, unless you lopped off all salaries.
"And I never said I don’t like KMart. I just don’t think the duo is good for the team. They are essentially two of the same player"
Sammyp831.
by SavageBeast on Feb 8, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If the players are making less in direct salaries than the specter of the metropolitan endorsement dollars loom large
Though the Kings are not nearly the smallest of markets, they are perceived to be so. This will hurt them only to a fair degree – superduperstars only number in the few. On the one hand, having a “more level” playing field will decrease some of the major market advantage. It will also make Larry Bird rights even more valuable. On the other hand, a thumb and four fingers.
I side with the game. They are all (players and owners) making gobs of jack and now the pendulum is swinging a bit the other way. I don’t know of any ownership that has their NBA team as their primary source of income, so a lockout will favor the owners.
by betweentheeyes on Feb 8, 2010 12:05 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Bingo!
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 12:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
HA!
On the other hand, a thumb and four fingers.
priceless
"every once in a while a kernel of truth...uhh... corn is revealed in my usual pile of poop" - betweentheeyes
by debrixtha1 on Feb 8, 2010 2:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
While the owners are trashing free market economics
How about a 30% reduction in ticket prices?
by nbrans on Feb 8, 2010 9:25 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
That isn't likely going to happen
This is always about profit potential.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 9:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Correct
And accordingly I can’t believe fans ever side with owners against the players.
by nbrans on Feb 8, 2010 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
I don’t get that either.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. No one shows to the Kings games to watch the Maloofs. Plus, I’m guessing there is a general fatigue amongst the population regarding the owners based on all the new arenas and taxpayer involvement in financing them.
by sactown on Feb 8, 2010 9:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think what happened is that many of the owners were around back in 1999 and they remember how poorly the players handled themselves during the 1999 negotiations
I think they’re expecting the players to do that again, but I think the players will handle themselves well. It certainly behooves them to do so.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 9:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't see it...
As I said above, there are too many players and agents with differing motivations for them to stay unified. The players will lose the PR battle as a couple of them will pop off to the media, while others will start to run out of cash. Dissention will start to creep in and the owners know this. No different than 1999, no matter how well the union tells it’s members to prepare.
I think the union needs to pick a couple of issues that are important to it’s members, make as much progress on those as they can, and eat the rest of it…
"Granted, this is not a great situation, but when all you have is lemons, you add some vodka to dull the pain..."
by Mcamp49 on Feb 8, 2010 9:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well then you can't see it.
The players don’t have to do anything right now.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 9:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
I wouldn’t do anything right now if I was the union either. I just don’t think they can push the button and allow a lockout. They can posture all they want, but in the end, if they don’t deal, and a lockout ensues, I think they will regret it deeply.
"Granted, this is not a great situation, but when all you have is lemons, you add some vodka to dull the pain..."
by Mcamp49 on Feb 8, 2010 9:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I fail to see how the owners can afford a lockout either.
Both sides need the NBA to keep marching on.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 10:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And what about the NFL's potential strike?
If the NFL ends up not having a labor strike, I would think the NBA ownerr would be really nervous about the public perception of the league if they hold out for too long.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I fail to see how the owners can afford a lockout either.
Both sides need the NBA to keep marching on.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 10:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that the owners can afford it more than the players...
and I agree that neither side can afford it very much. Personally, I think that a deal will be struck in the end, but the owners will get most of what they want. Hopefully, this is the way it will go and a lockout will be avoided…
"Granted, this is not a great situation, but when all you have is lemons, you add some vodka to dull the pain..."
by Mcamp49 on Feb 8, 2010 10:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The 15 owners that have been losing money
can afford a lockout
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 8, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not really.
I’m guessing they lose even more money if there is no income, no luxery tax revenue sharing etc. You still have a lot of basic expenses other than players.
"And I never said I don’t like KMart. I just don’t think the duo is good for the team. They are essentially two of the same player"
Sammyp831.
by SavageBeast on Feb 8, 2010 11:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty much.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 12:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
an short term investment in patience
for a longer term advantage in finances and collection.
by betweentheeyes on Feb 8, 2010 12:38 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm amazed franchises are losing money
Yet franchises like the Grizzlies manage to make money by using their cap room WISELY.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 3:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well said.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 3:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
David Stern is going for blood.
That’s all this is. If I were the players, I’d continue to wait until the last possible moment I had to make a deal.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 9:17 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
The dumb post where I decide to use a random quote to describe how I feel about the Kevin Martin trade rumor machine (Coincidence that Obama and Kevin Martin are skinny as hell? I think not.)
Their cyclonic perpetual emotion machine that is a 24-hour a day, 7-day a week. They’ve taken reasonable concerns about this president and this economy and turned it into a full-fledged panic attack about the next coming of Chairman Mao. Explain to me why that is the narrative of your network?
This is, for those who don’t recognize it, from John Stewart, describing his view of how Fox News Network attacks the Obama Presidency. I think it would actually be a good desciption of the type of panic I have seen over Kevin Martin around here in Sacramento. I think it’s to the point where it is reasonable to be concerned about him but at the same time I can’t help but think that we are blowing things out of proportion.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 10:02 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
the reasonable part being his lack of defense, injury past (i would argue the Reke and him clicking together part but that’s pretty borderline)
the unreasonable being that we must dump him now, he needs to play more like Jon Brockman, and it’s mainly his fault for the recent losses and we must trade him now because he willf fail and lose all value.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 10:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
John Stewart
is as big a leftie as Fox are righties. Everyone has an axe to grind, everyone is selling something, don’t forget it.
by Grasul on Feb 8, 2010 10:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yes but stewart will criticize the lefties when they are full of crap. you'll never see o'reilly, hannity, and co. criticize anyone on the right.
At USC we're not snobs, we're just better than you.
by TrojanCBB on Feb 8, 2010 10:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
(oh oh, i feel like i just accidentally opened up Pandora’s jar)
Note to self: try not to bring politics into forum for sports.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 10:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
BANNED
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
by otis29 on Feb 8, 2010 10:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i am guessing this is a no-no that has been done before
i would not be offended if an administrator decided to delete the whole Stewart thing
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 10:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we will survive
Until Smills shows up.
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
by otis29 on Feb 8, 2010 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I get the feeling you don't watch a lot of the latter group you listed.
One of the great tragedies of this “free information” era, is its almost impossible to find reasoned opinion anymore. The only thing all the new media has done for us is make it easier to see the sides.
I can’t watch any of those idiots, on both sides, for more than about 10 minutes without wanting to throw up on myself. People get “news” these days to reinforce their opinions, not learn anything, primarily because no sources can be trusted to not be selling something.
by Grasul on Feb 8, 2010 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Well said Gras.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Indeed
And at least Stewart is on Comedy Central and not pretending to be fair and balanced
by LPKingsFan on Feb 8, 2010 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fuck it, I'll post it again

www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Feb 8, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
FYI
Stewart is also a “Jon” instead of a “John”. This is why we’re a good team; you set-up my jokes and say stuff that makes sense, I tell you how to spell people’s names and otherwise contribute very little to anything.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 8, 2010 12:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Joke's on you
I’m totally telling him you did that. Goodluck fishing your eyeballs out of your ass.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 8, 2010 3:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
FYI to everybody
Keep the political garbage off of here. Opinions are like assholes: everyone has one, they’re all shitty, and no one wants to fucking hear your’s!
We get a lot of great conversations around here, but only if they’re basketball related. Let’s keep it that way
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Feb 8, 2010 11:29 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
sorry my fault
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 11:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nah
There are always people waiting to start arguing about politics. And they are all right about as often as they are right about what GP will do.
"And I never said I don’t like KMart. I just don’t think the duo is good for the team. They are essentially two of the same player"
Sammyp831.
by SavageBeast on Feb 8, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There was another string of comments before your's as well
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Feb 8, 2010 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Assinine Political Viewpoints
Maybe some of you should post on the Assinine Political Viewpoints thread, also known as the “letters to the editor” section of the Bee!
by longtimelistenerfirsttimecaller on Feb 8, 2010 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
you must be a commie
"every once in a while a kernel of truth...uhh... corn is revealed in my usual pile of poop" - betweentheeyes
by debrixtha1 on Feb 8, 2010 2:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ug I hate this
All of my humor is based on political cheap shots! Can’t we make up some rule where Person A is allowed to make a cheap shot reference but opens themselves up to any rebuttal from Person B and Person A nor anybody else can rebut Person B because it was in fact Person A who opened the door in the first place? Cuz I have no problem if someone throws a cheap shot right back at me.
I am guessing I am going to get a “no” on this one.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 11:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
I’m not against a hard cap at all. The [redacted] wouldn’t be able to spend $20 mil into the luxury tax, anymore.
by CloudyEyes on Feb 8, 2010 2:38 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yet the Lakers aren't the biggest spenders
The Knicks and Mavericks have been. What has all that spending really got them?
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i was about to say that it's given the Mavs a nice run of playoff seasons
but then again, that might be inspite of the spending they have done.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 3:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Knicks had an incompetent gm, who wrecked their franchise for years
The Mavs have been a pretty good team for years, just other teams have just been better than theirs.
I’m not saying money is the sole cause of winning percentage, but I’m saying money does influence the process of getting those big pieces.
by CloudyEyes on Feb 8, 2010 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh no it hasn't.
Dirk Nowitzki was acquired draft day. Kobe Bryant ditto. (Shaq was acquired via Free Agency under a system that is no longer the way it once was.) Tim Duncan ditto. LeBron James ditto. Kevin Garnett (with the Wolves) ditto.
Most players were drafted by a team. Especially the high impact guys who’ve made a real difference in the NBA. Many of them were drafted 1st overall, and the ones who weren’t dropped usually no lower than 15 in a draft.
The greatest FA signing made by any team this past decade, IMO, is Steve Nash. Is Phoenix that major market that is burning the rest of the NBA? Me thinks not. Most of their team was built through the draft.
Notice a trend?
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Right, and the [redacted] can sign their entire core...Gasol, Bynum, anyone to huge ass contracts to keep them there
Could a small market team do that? I’m not so sure.
by CloudyEyes on Feb 8, 2010 5:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
...and as far as free agency goes
All I’m going to say is, refer to the 2010 FA market.
by CloudyEyes on Feb 8, 2010 6:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They can yes.
That’s the way the system is designed to be set up.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 6:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I know they can, but they wouldn't be able to afford it
If a bigger company, with a bigger revenue stream, was to compete with a smaller company, with half that revenue stream, the bigger company can input more money to produce a better product, thus giving competitive advantage to big market teams.
What I’m getting from you is both of these companies have the same competitive advantage.
by CloudyEyes on Feb 8, 2010 10:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bingo.
Every team has the same advantage in re-signing their players.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 9, 2010 9:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not if they don’t have enough money to pay them, before going bankrupt over it, due to their small market economy. A hard cap allows for any team with a budget up to the amount of the hard cap to start a team and compete equally with a big market.
Under this situation, a rich team can afford to spend all they want, because their market allows them to and the rules say they can. Under this situation, a small market can maybe afford a big piece, or 2, but wouldn’t be able to go on a spending binge, because their market wouldn’t allow them to.
You’re telling me money makes no difference in re-signing these players. That a conglomerate has equal competition from a mom and pop shop. That’s totally contradictory to economics.
by CloudyEyes on Feb 9, 2010 6:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't ignore however
Shaq was through a trade
Two of the Celts Star players from trades
Pau Gasol who let Kobe win last year, sort of a trade or gift
So trades are an important part of the formula, you can’t ever get everything in the draft.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 8, 2010 5:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fat Shaq went to Miami. He was no longer a franchise player in 2004
Ray Allen went for the 5th pick in 2007. Seems fair to me. That pick ended up being Jeff Green. And, I’ll say yet again, that Pau Gasol trade also ended up netting the Grizzlies talent that were useful (Marc Gasol namely).
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 6:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
LA got Shaq in a trade
not talking about Fat Shaq though he was very key, the 2nd best player on that Miami Championship team as well (through a trade)
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 8, 2010 6:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No LA got Shaq through Free Agency
They got the draft rights to Kobe by trading Vlade Divac to Charlotte. That move also opened up enough cap room to sign Shaq in LA. That’s what prompted the rules in 1999 where teams couldn’t lose players (like Shaq) to a team like LA by giving them the same amount of money to spend. That’s why teams can offer 6 years & significantly more money with bird rights than teams without those bird rights (or extensions using Early Bird rights).
In 1999, the rules were 7 years and a lot more money with non bird teams being able to offer 6 years.
Believe me, a lot of things have changed since 1996.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 6:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't think they did
back then, there was a period where restricted free agency was eliminated all together
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 6:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
kind of like when the death penalty was banned for awhile under Furman v Georgia, 1972.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 6:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Restricted Free Agency didn't exist in 1996.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 6:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rookie deals (the 3 year contracts) started in 1995--these are precursors to the current 3 years and extra option year
Before 1995, they were simply negotiated as regular contracts. (That’s how Doug Christie went from Seattle to LA before he played his game. He held out for more money from Seattle, and then was traded to LA where he got his money.)
What got rookies the 3 year contract system was when Glenn Robinson, the 1st pick of 1994, wanted a 10 year 100 million contract. He ended up with a 10 year 68 million contract. That’s another reason why deals were capped at 7 years.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 6:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah that's what i meant. i thought lietothegirls thought Shaq was a restricted free agent and did a sign and trade
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 6:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh I see.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 6:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i know rookie deals at that point where 3 years
but i guess i was also making the statement that in fact there were no restricted free agents in basketball at the time. one of the previous collective bargaining agreements got rid of them.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 6:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is true too.
In 1999 they were brought back.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 6:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and as my last pointless follow up
My Furman v Georgia, 1972 example was in reference to a Supreme Court case where the Court held that the death penalty was unconstitutional because it was largely being used on non whites. So basically every death penalty sentence in the country was illiminated and replaced with a life sentence (i don’t know about the parole part though but i think that was handled by the states). This is actually why Charles Manson has a life sentence.
Anyway that was my way of referring to the fact that all restricted free agent contracts were wiped out by a previous collective bargaining agreement and all free agents where thereby unrestricted freeagents, regardless of the original contract signed.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 6:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny you mention that.
I’m in my Poly Sci class right now. LOL
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 6:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
basically i probably should have worded it a bit better and not made any assumptions
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 6:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I will be severely disappointed if the Kings trade Kevin Martin at the deadline
Unless the deal is an obvious win for the Kings. You have to at least give them the rest of the season.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement, Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order, and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
by Aykis16 on Feb 8, 2010 3:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
martin
just listened to peaches DESTROY Kevin Martin on his show. Called him mentally weak and said that in the last two games, he has not given it his all. Rough times ahead for sacto fans… but hey, the night is always darkest before the dawn.
Put that in your juice box and suck it
by ianeriley on Feb 8, 2010 4:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
A Dark Knight reference?

When life gives you lemons, just say "f--- the lemons" and bail
by Player To Be Named Later on Feb 8, 2010 5:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Now in all seriousness...
Martin seems like he’s pulling a Rick Barry half the time (refusing to shoot and passing to prove he’s a “team player”), and pulling a Monta Ellis the other half (getting the ball and deciding as soon as he touches it that he’s going to shoot). He needs to step it up. I can deal with a slumping player, but I hate a guy that isn’t giving 100%.
When life gives you lemons, just say "f--- the lemons" and bail
by Player To Be Named Later on Feb 8, 2010 5:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You know what I hate?
Fans that mistake a slumping player as one that is not giving 100%.
Martin grabbed 7 boards in Toronto to go along with a pair of steals, a pair of assists, and it should also be noted that he had no turnovers. DeRozan and Weems were his primary covers, and they did not go off on him. He had some time on Antoine Wright, who seemingly lit up everyone.
Had Martin hit two more of his open and makeable 3’s, the Kings would have still lost, but his line would have been awesome – 30/7/2/2/0 on 63% true shooting.
So is it your contention that Martin missed those 3’s because he is not giving 100%? Because as entitled to that opinion as you are, I simply can’t find the reason or the sense in it, and must therefore respectfully and forcefully disagree.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Feb 8, 2010 5:20 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
Antoine Wright, who seemingly lit up everyone
This makes my head hurt.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 5:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
at least he didn't say Kevin needs to play more like Brockman
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 5:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Or ...
Had Martin hit two more of his open and makeable 3’s, the Kings would have still lost, but his line would have been awesome – 30/7/2/2/0 on 63% true shooting.
he could made two baskets or less period like he’s done in four games since his return. Not so awesome.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 8, 2010 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, I know the KM haters will find a way to blame him
for Bosh going 14 of 18 from the floor, not to mention Bargnani going 9-15.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 8, 2010 5:54 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
So then -
You feel that he is missing those shots because he is giving less than 100%? Because that is my question, not anything else that you would like to twist it into.
Plainly and simply (and I’m typing slowly so that I do not lose you), is it your opinion that Kevin Martin is missing shots because he is giving less than 100%?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Feb 8, 2010 5:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
wow i feel like i am in groundhog day
I swear i have had this conversation with like 6 different people in the last week.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 6:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome to the StR.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 6:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
the funny part about all of this
I am not even a big Kevin Martin supporter (although I must admit, the fact that he has been here through alot of the crap oddly makes me respect him more than some other players) yet I feel like am defending him all the time. It’s one thing not to like him, it’s another thing to start going after someone claiming “they don’t care” or have no “passion.”
I feel like the only way Kevin can appease this group is go all Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and literally rip his heart out of his frickin chest.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 6:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That's a big problem around here, and Sacramento, really
It’s not like everyone here absolutely loves and adores Kevin Martin and will never even think about trading him. Is that the way that he’s criticized is so baseless and unfair that it just gets annoying. Instead of questioning his defensive defciencies for example, they’ll question his heart because I guess that’s the reason he’s not a good defender. Because he doesn’t show emotion he’s not playing hard and when he is affected by trade rumors, he’s just weak emotionally and mentally.
No one here thinks he’s the perfect player or untouchable, but I think a lot of people will agree that he deserves a chance to prove if this can work out. If it doesn’t, then you move him and everyone moves on.
IMO, because of the type of person and player he has been in Sacramento, he deserves that chance. Unfortunately, some Kings fans are already showing how little they truly appreciate a guy like him.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
by edm7 on Feb 8, 2010 7:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Only way they'll really appreciate him is when he's gone and they have to see how life is different without him.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 7:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Like Sims said the other day
I’m getting to the point where I’d be alright with him leaving and then coming back to torch us every time we play his new team.
I just don’t understand what’s the rush? Why can’t this team just get a chance?
I mean, don’t we win the Utah game if someone could’ve stopped Millsap? Don’t we win the Spurs game if we had someone to stop Blair? Don’t we win at least 2 more games if we could make out FTs? I’ve yet to read how Kevin Martin is losing this games for the Kings
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
by edm7 on Feb 8, 2010 7:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
Martin’s played like complete shit most of the time since he’s been back. The question is, what do you believe:
His years of production?
His games he was on fire to start the season?
Or the games since he’s been back.
I believe he’s earned the right to play through his current issues based on his history, but he’s got to get better. He knows that, he’d be the first to say it I bet.
by Grasul on Feb 8, 2010 7:49 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Even if he plays like he did last year
I think there are reasonable concerns about him to be honest. Granted, I don’t think he is a team cancer nor do I think he is worth trading for an expiring contract, but just pointing out that I think this is not just about how he has played since he has come back.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 7:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What's the concern Wally?
I truly don’t know. I’m guessing the injury bug?
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
by edm7 on Feb 8, 2010 7:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As for my pre 2010 concerns
I know he is a scorer but his defensive numbers have been pretty abysmal. Seemed like opposing guards were flying into the paint at will.
And yes I do consider good health to be a very valuable commodity in the NBA. Granted, he has not had some horrid knee injury but considering his history and his frame and how he plays I would be pretty surprised if this was all a fluke. And he’s not going to be putting on weight any time soon, he’s just not built for it .
Sidenote: I remember hearing how Rip Hamilton would keep building 15 pounds of muscle each summer but by the end of preseason it would be gone because he was running so damn much. Finally he decided to stop working on building strength and just worked on his conditioning to be the best conditioned athlete out there.
(this is the part that is totally and completely just conjecture)
When I look at his frame, the guy isn’t just skinny but he’s also really, i dunno how to say, maybe small? When I look at Casspi, dude is skinny as hell but at the same time he’s really broad. To me it looks like he is able to receive alot more contact and he bounces off of it. Meanwhile Martin’s frame just seems really small (i don’t know if delicate is the right word, after all we are talking about bones here not fabric). And by the way, I am not trying to say he is “soft” like he has no heart, I just don’t understand how he can keep himself healthy in this league.
But I also know that i am not a pro scout. I am merely stating what I see right now as a fan. Might be full of mistakes but it’s just what it is.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 8:10 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
No argument there Wally
You have good points. Defense and health were/are a big concern. I do see him as a Rip Hamilton type player so it’s funny you bring up the comparison.
I think that in the end, we can’t judge Kevin by what we have now because there are still pieces to be added to this puzzle. Unfortunately that’s really what everyone is doing, no? They are judging him because he was part of very bad teams and can’t see the positives he can bring because so much of his career was highlighted by negatives. I don’t think that’s the whole argument but it’s a big part of it.
Let me ask one more question: Would we notice his defense if everyone else was also better at team defense or if we had an actual interior presence protecting our basket? That’s a little where I’m trying to get at.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
by edm7 on Feb 8, 2010 8:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think putting Beno next to Martin hasn't done either of those two any favors
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 8:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
sorry if long and rambling but i actually had to think about it a little - good luck reading this poo poo platter
Note: since i was talking about last year above i should probably keep there or else i am going to mish mash a bunch of crap in my head.
I am not sure whether we would not notice his defense if we had more of an interior presence, I think Spence isn’t that awful at defense personally (JT is a different matter) just his rebouding. Maybe our bigs would look better if at least Beno or Martin was able to keep their man somewhat contained. Remember Spence hardly played before last year and JT was a rookie, last year they were often out there with Beno and Martin which I felt made our bigs actually look worse and
At the same time, this might be a chicken before the egg thing because in fact, Beno, JT and Martin were all really really bad defensively and I don’t know who to blame for what part of it. To be honest, I have a lot of concerns with alot of the players on this team, Kevin Martin is definitely not the only one who played bad defense and he was definitely the best one stepping it up on offense.
The thing is, we happened to just be talking about Martin but I am worried about Beno, JT, and Hawes too. I think we are still in the talent acquiring business and I personally would not be upset if the Kings were to traid JT Hawes or Martin to acquire talent they think fits better and is of equal or better value.
Just because I have concerns about Martin doesn’t mean i think he should be shipped out of here. I liked the 76er Iggy/Dalembert idea but that’s mainly because I have an infatuation with Iggy. Everything else has been expirings. Personally i don’t get the urgency of having to trade Kevin Martin before his trade value drops because to me, it’s pretty damn low if you can only get the likes of Josh Howard and a late first round pick. I think even if Martin screwed up the rest of the year we can still get an expiring for him down the road if worst comes to worst.
And i guess that summarizes it, sorry if you felt like you just ran up onto a cliff at the end there. Basically I think this team has a long way to go. In this whole martin tade talk, i would never be opposed to fair value for him (nor JT or Hawes mind you) but i think we shouldn’t rush into anything because we don’t have to and it’s nice to keep our options open. I just personally liked the Iggy deal
Of course Kevin gets pointed out because he was the star, the face of the franchise, the guy who was hyped as the new star of the team with the new big contract and he is going to get the blame.
I don’t think Kevin
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 8:53 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Fair assesment Wally
If the discussion was about value then this arguments would be much prettier. But as you’ve seen, people want to question heart and effort because they don’t like the guy.
I’m down to discussing what we should/can get on a trade for Kevin. We need more talent, if Kevin gets us that, then awesome. That’s never the problem. The problem is trying to get rid of a good player, not trading him but trying to “get rid of him.”
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
by edm7 on Feb 8, 2010 9:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I actually understand too though when people don’t like talking value and have an attachment with a player. i might disagree with them at times, but i am not going to start rubbing it in their faces when that player has a bad game. That’s just being a dick.
Besides, trade value and the like is kind of small potatotes for alot of people. Seems that the games themselves and whole arena mess are in fact much bigger. So i can understand how some of those people get annoyed with the trade stuff too.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 9:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
to be honest i just signed to comment here
to talk about games, try to argue a little and hash out my thought process, talk nba, and make hooker jokes
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 9:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hooker jokes are always good
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
by edm7 on Feb 8, 2010 9:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is trying to get rid of a good player, not trading him but trying to "get rid of him."
By the way, that is absolutely what people are advocating. I don’t care how they are sugar coating it, but when you start rationalizing Martin for an expiring it is absolutely to get rid of the guy.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 9:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
and to drag this even further, if we were to make the Iggy/ Dally trade for example, I’d understand. I don’t agree with it but the goal of it is to impove this team and the FO obviously thinks that’s a way to do it. Can’t complain about that.
I’m sure after reading about this so much, you reaize exactly what many of us argue for when it comes to Kevin.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
by edm7 on Feb 8, 2010 9:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
this has been a very enjoyable exchange
thanks Ed and Wally, it was nice to read something thought out and logical.
by MichaelMack on Feb 8, 2010 9:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for letting me ramble without feeling like an ass
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 9:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What StR is for.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 9:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah
Seems like alot of people, after lurking awhile, are moved to finally comment on here and it often involves their frustration with the team or Martin himself (although he usually gets tied into the team frustrations since he’s a big deal on this team and not the wonder kid anymore).
I dunno if they’re nervous, they want everyone to think they know everything about the Kings or they want their comment to go green or what, but for whatever reason they come off as “loud know it all radio guy” and they start going into hyperbole about how champions play defense, player X who scores alot doesn’t do much else so therefore has no heart, player Y is too short for his position but because he gets 15 minutes a game he is the equivalent of a frickin super hero, and so on and so on.
(by the way, really like Brockman but why is it that everyone who rips on Martin talks about how soft and frail he is yet saying Brockman is too short to guard his position is somehow not valid just because he has alot of energy?)
Anyway, seems to me new person says something a little over the top, everyone here has already seen it a million times and they are annoyed with it and call them out. New person absolutely goes into a fucking tizzy, starts typing homophobic slurs, tells everyone else they have no self esteem and then signs off and comes back 3 days later to respond to you in a post game thread that has long been forgotten.
So yeah, i can see what you guys argue about with Kevin. Seems like alot of people characterize like he is some frail emo kid who takes all of his money and runs off to his parents room and cries in the middle of the night. I dunno, it’s odd to keep seeing the same cycle over and over again.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 9:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Another thing is that alot of people seem to not have gotten over 2002
I have been a Kings fan since the mid 1990s (Before there was brockman there was the Animal Michael Smith) and maybe you were too and we are better able to handle suck better. I am also somewhat shielded from the travesty of Game 6 2002 because i went to a party and drank about 5 too many red cups before the game and the whole thing was a drunken blur. I had zero clue about the 27 free throws, i was too busy debating whether I should make out with the toilet or not. To be honest, I usually remember game 5 Mike Bibby (still use it for motivation when i go on my annual trip to the gym).
I still remember seeing Webber keel over in pain even though nobody touched him. I never went to bed that night. I knew that was pretty much it. I thought I took it bad but i still have friends who refuse to watch the Kings to this day and talk crap about Kevin Martin and how the team sucks. I get the feeling they are still bitter.
Being an A’s/Kings/Raiders fan, the early 2000s were frickin amazing but things have really gone down the crapper. Personally I don’t really care about “you have to build a championship or you fail” type crap. I almost feel alot of the Martin stuff comes from that because of the fact that he is not a top star type talent in a lot of people’s eyes. Personally i don’t care about winning a championship anymore, for me it’s just about the journey and the Kings right now are just starting a new one so it’ll take some time.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 9:43 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm actually a relatively new fan
I moved to the states from Peru in ’01. I began following basketball during the Jordan era and “grew up” liking the late 90s Spurs, Blazers, and Kings. When I moved to California, I inmediately became a Kings fan (it helped that they were good already) with the J-Will, C-Webb, and Vlade teams just beginning the journey.
I actualy remember calling my dad every 5 minutes from work, during the Lakers series. I still remember him telling me about Horry making that 3.
Personally, the reason why I’m such a fan is because I come from a hardcore fan soccer background. Back in Peru, people literally kill for their teams and unfortunately I’m not joking. You follow and support your team in the good times and the bad times. The players are like part of your family and life is planned around weekend soccer games. It’s madness. I see a lot of that in me but now with the Kings.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
by edm7 on Feb 8, 2010 9:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
well put
and on that note, i got to get some work done before i frickin sleep.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 9:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Congratulations on hitting the 1000 comment barrier.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 9:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just thankful you didn't shoot me on StR night.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 9:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You should be
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
by edm7 on Feb 8, 2010 9:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I said I was thankful. What more do you want?
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 9:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I feel ya
I’m a kings/raiders/a’s fan as well and it’s been brutal! At least the kings and a’s are headed in the right direction. Chris Carter and Michael Taylor baby!
by elSAVinator on Feb 9, 2010 12:34 AM PST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely
You’re acually ahead of the game Grasul. I was waiting for someone to come in and say how if he would’ve made his shots we would’ve won a couple of those games. Well… then your point comes in.
Who’s the real Kevin Martin? The one from the past couple seasons? The one from th beginning of the season? or the one from the past couple games?
He needs to be better, no effing doubt, but there’s no indication he won’t. That’s where patience comes in but I know that’s boring.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
by edm7 on Feb 8, 2010 7:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gras is good at patience. One of his many good things.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Feb 8, 2010 8:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I've been on the fence about Kevin.
There are arguments on both sides for and against him. Overall, there is this element of doubt about what the Kevin in the future will be. If anything, Kevin should stay until there is a greater consensus about him.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
by Slam_Dunk on Feb 8, 2010 8:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thats all nonsense Ed
If he’d made more shots we would havea won a few of those games?
If others had made more we would have as well – by scores of 120 to 117. Thats not winning basketball. A few wins with scores like that drive us down the road GS runs on – to nowhere.
Offense is not the problem. Bosh and Bargnani hitting on 66% of their shots and scoring 58, not to mention the other shots made right at the basket – those are the real problems.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 8, 2010 9:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I see that
I would still think that if he would’ve hit a couple more baskets a couple times, maybe the outcome cold’ve been better. That’s not a criticism as much as it is an expectation to what a good player like him can do.
I was also kinda referring to stretches when the offense went ice cold and we needed someone to come to the rescue.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
by edm7 on Feb 8, 2010 9:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OK
I think most good teams know what to do when the jumpshooting game goes stagnant for a stretch.
They throw it inside for some easy baskets or fouls for a possession or two.
Thats the flip side of our defensive problem inside. We don’t really have a threat in their offensively either. Certainly not a proven or dependable threat to post-up and score.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 8, 2010 9:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Opponents know it only too well
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 8, 2010 9:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
JT also really needs to avoid getting called on moving screens
Because he is really missing out on some pick&roll/pick&pop opportunities on offense.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 9:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is,
we’re already pretty used to not having him.
When life gives you lemons, just say "f--- the lemons" and bail
by Player To Be Named Later on Feb 8, 2010 10:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't see the Toronto game
so I really can’t comment on Kevin’s play that day. I was at the Suns game, and he had no energy. He was standing around. Moving at half speed and getting disrespected on D. He just quit playing. Thankfully, Westphal ended the torture and his night.
You can call that anything you like, and you can boil down a complicated argument into just that “hustle-passion” issue if it suits your purpose. But for many reasons I’ve mentioned, I just don’t see him as part of the Kings future.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 8, 2010 8:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
aren't you the one though who brings up the "hustle-passion" thing?
I think that’s why people keep responding to you.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Feb 8, 2010 8:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My comment was based on Napear's
When life gives you lemons, just say "f--- the lemons" and bail
by Player To Be Named Later on Feb 8, 2010 10:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with section
He just missed a few shots. Pretty damn solid game. Strangely, he missed his 3s (1-6)which he had been hitting and hit 80% of his 2s (10-12 or something) which he hadn’t. That shows me that all is pretty well with him and he’s finishing dusting off his game. And 7 rebounds? (~Soft~)
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 8, 2010 5:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't wait for the deadline to pass...
I think nothing is going to be done…
Just waiting for those lottery balls…
by getPGwithbounce on Feb 8, 2010 10:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

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