Can the Kings Wait?
by Tom Ziller on Apr 25, 2010 11:07 AM PDT
in Commentary
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PrintPatience is the buzz word in Sacramento right now. The Bee's Jason Jones is the latest to report a sense the Kings will remain fairly quiet in free agency, instead following the so-called Portland-Oklahoma City model: build through the draft, and add cheap supplementary players. The argument is that by focusing on youth and flexibility, you build a foundation for long-term success rather than chasing one good season.
But the strategy Portland and OKC have undertaken has been seriously misconstrued. Yes, both teams have built their core through the draft. No, neither team has signed a top-level free agent. But what the Blazers and Thunder have done, and what Sacramento is purporting to be doing are completely different.
After the jump, I explain why.
Portland has three top-6 picks from within the past four years. Oklahoma City has four.
After June, the Kings will have two.
Sure, one of those two is Tyreke Evans, and the other could be John Wall or Evan Turner. But to get a third top-6 pick, the Kings will again have to be awful -- as in 26 wins or worse -- in 2010-11. Anyone looking forward to that? And let's face it: Evans isn't Durant, and probably will never be Durant. I'm as starry-eyed as the next guy, but Durant is a LeBron rival. He's not of this planet. Anyone projecting Evans to rival Durant or LeBron within a few years is bargaining with lunacy. Reke's great, and a hard-worker, and the brightest star Sacramento's ever had. But he's not Durant.
The Blazers, meanwhile, have certainly not avoided paying substantial salaries to supplementary players. The team did everything it could to keep Darius Miles's $9 million 2009-10 salary off the books so the Blazers could be the biggest players in free agency last summer. When that failed, Portland made high-profile (and high-dollar) bids for Hedo Turkoglu (despite having Nicolas Batum, Webster and Travis Outlaw at small forward) and Paul Millsap (despite having Aldridge, Oden and Joel Przybilla up front) before settling on Andre Miller (despite having Steve Blake at the point). When injuries destroyed the front line, the team flipped for Marcus Camby; when he worked out well, the team extended his contract two years to the tune of $20 million. Before making any additions this summer -- rookies, a mid-level exception -- the Blazers are knocking on the 2010-11 luxury tax threshold.
That the Blazers have patiently built while avoiding paying veterans big money is a complete myth. The Blazers made brilliant decisions to free up cap space (the Zach Randolph deal, in particular) so a player like Miller could be obtained, made great draft decisions in 2006, and lucked into a top-3 pick in 2007. If Portland happened to have $20 million of cap space in 2007, do you think Kevin Pritchard would have sat on it? Of course not! He did all he could to get 2009 cap space, and spent every penny.
Oklahoma City's Sam Presti did forego 2009 cap space, however. The Thunder had about $9 million, and Presti sat on it, instead letting his young squad grow organically. (He eventually used a chunk of it to take Matt Harpring's dead weight contract from Utah, saving the Jazz $6.5 million in luxury tax and netting the Thunder Eric Maynor.)
But don't forget Presti's attempt to trade expiring contracts for Tyson Chandler in February 2009. That would have put the Thunder over the cap before July began, as Chandler made $11.7 million this season (with $12.6 million due in 2010-11). At the time of the near-trade, Durant was 20, Westbrook was 20, Green was 22 -- the core was as young as could be. So much for patience, right? Presti saw an opportunity to acquire a big-salary player, and took it, before his team doctor found problems with Chandler's foot and reversed the trade.
The Thunder have $19 million in cap space this summer. Who wants to bet Presti won't be on the phone with the agents for any number of elite big men on July 1?
Advocates of patience would argue the Kings aren't at the same level as the Thunder, and that's obviously correct. The Kings won 25 games. The Thunder are tied with the defending champs in the first round. Following that pattern would leave the Kings looking for veteran additions no earlier than 2011.
But the Kings may not have the opportunity to add much in 2011, depending on the league's labor dispute and the expected shrunken salary cap. The Kings have $30 million committed for 2011-12, and that doesn't cover Spencer Hawes, Carl Landry or the 2010 lotto pick (who will make $3-6 million that season). There's a very serious chance that if the Kings don't add long-term salary this offseason, they still wouldn't be able to in the two following seasons. This offseason (and the 2011 trade deadline) grants the team its largest opportunity to add a big-name player. If not now, there's a distinct possibility it will never happen.
That isn't to say the team should necessarily bet the farm on one big player. You still have to make smart decisions, sign the right player who fits with the extant core (that'd be Evans and the lotto pick) well. (To that point, what happens May 18 and June 24 matter a ton.) This is not a call to offer Carlos Boozer $15 million, or David Lee $12 million. But the idea the Kings are better off sitting out July completely is all out of whack, based on blueprints falsified as myth. The Blazers and Thunder haven't gotten to the postseason by sitting on their hands, and the Kings can't do that either.
(Note to readers from the future: if Hawes and Jason Thompson quickly morphed into Oden and Aldridge, or Omri Casspi turned into Peja Stojakovic circa 1999, or Donte Greene realized The Prophecy, ignore this post.)
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I've always thought what Geoff Petrie said was public posturing to get people off the idea that the team will go after LeBron.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
if LeBron does not receive 30 max offer contracts at midnight
then (30 – n)= the number of idiot GMs in the league
where n = the number of contact offers that LeBron does receive
There is no way 30 GM's will offer LeBron a max contract.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Then by Mark's equation
There will be a number of idiot GMs in the league.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
No doubt.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I think I get his point though
Even though there are only a handful of teams able to offer LeBron max money straight out of the gate, most teams should at least make the effort to either contact LeBron as soon as possible after the draft OR contact Cleveland with their best sign-and-trade offer.
I think LeBron’s the one guy in the league you could just about gut your roster for.
I've got squirrels in my pants!
Yeah but LeBron won't do that.
I understand the point, but I disagree. If you’re OKC, do you gut your roster to get LeBron? No. Why would you? And there are multiple teams like that. Why would LeBron go to a team and get a gutted roster? It would be like Cleveland in 2004 only with a better LeBron. What’s attractive about that?
I think every team will inquire, and pretty much 20 teams will be told no immediately.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Well, I did say "just about gut your roster for"
OKC is certainly an exception, but I don’t know of many others. It’s definitely a catch-22. Why would LeBron come to a team that has very little talent left? Still, the worst you are going to get is a “no”, so at least it’s worth efforting.
Ultimately, I think we are in agreement on this point – I was just trying to clarify what mark was attempting to say instead of nitpicking the literalness of his post.
I've got squirrels in my pants!
What I disagree with is that LeBron can force a S&T with other teams.
There is very little out there that I think LeBron has in terms of power of forcing Cleveland to do a S&T. And that’s just one area where teams have so much power now that they didn’t in 1996 the last time there was a FA exodus going on.
Take Dallas. Work on a S&T scenario for LeBron to go there with Dirk. It’s going to be difficult even though media types say it’s possible. Media types want to keep every avenue of a possible FA exodus open so they can cover it. They need stories. LeBron is a mega story. Leaving Cleveland with a lot of fanfare and acrimony is a great story to cover for a New York journalist. Or any journalist for that matter. There are a lot of winners/losers in that deal. That’s always a great base for any story that will get told & told & told again.
There have been so many that have talked about LeBron’s impending FA and leaving Cleveland that there is a ton of vested interest in seeing every angle in every way sussed out before July 1. Then the frenzy begins.
The reality is that there is only 5 or 6 teams on LeBron’s list that he will end up on. Miami, New Jersey, New York, maybe Dallas if playing with Dirk is his thing (and even then that’s a big if) and that’s only other than Cleveland. Maybe he likes Chicago or the Clippers. That’s 8 teams. Which are, coincidentally, the teams with cap space this summer.
You have a lot of people who want to see a feeding frenzy. There are a lot of people who would benefit from covering the “hysteria”. The reality is that too many teams care about their teams first & foremost beyond the LeBron mania. One moment of LeBron mania is not going to make a team more interesting to a fanbase. I don’t care what anybody thinks on that particular point.
From the hysteria standpoint, I’m sure the LeBron “team” (or whatever LeBron’s yes men call themselves these days) would love to see the 30 team standpoint work. From a CBA/realistic standpoint, it doesn’t work at all. Why would LeBron go to Indiana, Detroit or Milwaukee? And what’s in any of those places that would make LeBron give it up to go there? Ditto with Toronto, Philadelphia, and Boston. Although I’m sure people will point out that the Celtics are good. Still, I don’t see LeBron dying to go to Boston. It’s always been about LeBron at every moment since he dropped his 25 9 & 6 game at Arco in 2003. That ain’t going to happen in Boston. Plus there is the after effect of what happens if you flirt with LeBron. What does that say to the Celtics players who beat out the LeBron’s and Lakers for a championship? It’s always amazing how much people on every side talk about it just being “business”, but at the end of the day emotions end up running the actual discussion.
Is LeBron worth the hysteria? No. Will he get it? Sure, there will be people who try to make it that way. By any reasonable definition LeBron James is the best FA to hit the market where there is a reasonable chance he may leave.
The most likely scenario is that there will be a fever pitch for a few days. LeBron will think, ponder, think some more, have an epiphany (or 2 or 3 or 6), and then sign with Cleveland the day the July Moratorium is lifted. Chris Bosh will probably end up in New York or Miami, and may end up with Joe Johnson or Dwyane Wade. Geoff Petrie, and the same teams with those GM’s with cap room (or abilities to make a S&T) will leave a voicemail in whoever is representing LeBron today. LeBron will call those folks back when he feels like it. Petrie won’t get a phone call back and will get tired of it by July 1st at 1230 Am.
You can be ensured that if anything does leak, it will be from Lebron’s camp because they’re butthurt that the world doesn’t revolve around them. They’ll only leak it to get back at the teams that inquired on a cursory basis but essentially didn’t sit on pins & needles for them over a 5 day period. They’ll still be butthurt they didn’t have control of the 2010 FA market while everyone else was focusing on ways to improve their team and get better. They’ll probably even insinuate that because they’re part of the LeBron inner circle, they should have been the one’s controlling time in the Hudsucker Proxy. Or some bullshit like that. And a few journalists (or idiots) like Chris Broussard will write something like that somewhere down the line. And a few suckers will read “if only our—insert idiot GM here— had been more patient” and go “what if!?!?”? Thus the circle of complete and futile butthurt becomes complete.
Meanwhile the rest of us, especially those who don’t think the world lives on LeBron time, will have to move on with the recognition that there are 30 teams, while there is still only one LeBron. Because LeBron is just as interested in having the world revolve around him as he is in basketball (maybe more), that will matter more in the FA process.
The other point, of course, is that Cleveland’s entire championship hopes rest on LeBron. If you’re Cleveland, and you’ve tailored your roster to fit LeBron’s strengths and weaknesses (he isn’t playing with a roster overloaded with scrubs—the last time he did the Cavs were still a sub 500 team), and spending a lot of money to do it, that’s power LeBron will never get anywhere else in any other city. Because of this power, he matters more in Cleveland in ways he won’t in New York (let alone anywhere else). He’ll be another great athlete who played in New York. And he’ll have sold out Cleveland to do it.
I’ll be shocked if more than 5 or 6 teams even do more than a voicemail to LeBron on July 1. I’ll be shocked if Petrie does anything more than a cursory voicemail. I’m sure the other teams in the league will do the same, and I’m sure 10 teams won’t even bother to call LeBron.
I think the more interesting FA’s (by far) are Wade, Bosh, Johnson, Stoudemire (assuming he still is one), Boozer and Gay. If only because their interests are more straight forward than LeBron mania is.
As far as the water cooler talk that LeBron generates, let me put it this way: So what? Lebron will be talked about across the country for awhile, and ultimately that will fade into other hot topics of the day. Michael Jordan owned the day in his time, but how much actual hype does he really generate now?
And to sum up my lengthy fanpost of a fanpost of a fanpost, that’s exactly why I disagree that LeBron mania is anything more than contrived mania to feed the ego of the NBA’s best player. GM’s, owners and players have better things to do. The only reason LeBron holds out to sign is because he’s trying to get every moment out of it he can get.
If a GM gets fired because he didn’t wait for LeBron, that only shows that an owner is looking for a PR ploy/excuse to fire that GM. No more or less.
Hope you enjoyed the nitpicking. :)
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Apr 26, 2010 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
AAAAAHHHHHH!!!!
I’m not sure if this is the dumbest thing we’ve argued over, but it’s got to be close. :)
When I said this:
Even though there are only a handful of teams able to offer LeBron max money straight out of the gate, most teams should at least make the effort to either contact LeBron as soon as possible after the draft OR contact Cleveland with their best sign-and-trade offer.
I was just trying to clarify my understanding of markdog’s post. I thought you treated his post literally, while I treated his post in a more spiritual manner. :)
Even if my GM doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of landing LeBron James, I’d hope he’d make the effort to at least make the inquiry. And LeBron should have the world revolve around him – he’s the best basketball player on the planet, and he’s 25. No matter what you pay him, he’s going to be worth it.
I've got squirrels in my pants!
No see you missed my point.
Why is Lebron worth it? You’d have to guy the entire team, and even then what’s the point? He’s 25. Not 18.
If I were Petrie & the Maloof’s, I wouldn’t gut this team for LeBron as good as he is. I’d keep it together and keep moving forward. Because gutting this team with LeBron on it isn’t going to get you anywhere anyway. You’re just switching the problems and putting a shiny coverpiece on it. I’d rather the Kings win and not try to do things like the Warriors.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
When have the Warriors had a player like LeBron?
I must have missed it.
The Kings are so talent deprived right now, I’m not sure you could call it “gutting” the roster if they went after LeBron. And yes, I’d include Tyreke in a deal if it got me LeBron. Period…end of story.
I look at that Cavs roster outside of LeBron, and I see a bunch of marginal guys with a few higher end players. Therefore, I think a guy like Petrie could put enough of a cast around LeBron in short order to make the team a viable contender for the whole enchilada.
And when did 25 become “old”?
I've got squirrels in my pants!
It's not so much that I think LeBron is old
Is that I think the Kings can get a higher potential peak by not trading away the farm to get LeBron now. This is not the Celtics where they had Paul Pierce and some younger players who weren’t always what they hoped.
We can agree to disagree. I think the Cavs have plenty of talent on that team. Is it full of All-Stars and all that? No. But LeBron has always seemingly wanted the players on his team and not for his team to go out there and get the bigger bigger big name guys.
For all the talk about the lesser teammates, LeBron encourages the Cavs to keep his “guys”. He criticized Zydrunas Ilgauskas for playing Shaquille O’Neal instead. Both of those guys are his “guys”. LeBron always wants to have it both ways. When the Cavs lose, his teammates aren’t up to snuff. When they win, he makes his teammates look other worldly. The truth lay somewhere in the middle.
At the age LeBron is, I don’t think he’s worth the trouble. Am I alone? Yes. And, this is new why?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
LeBron criticized Mike Brown for playing Shaquille O'Neal too many minutes (which he supported)
against not playing Ilgauskas enough minutes. (Which LeBron didn’t support.)
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
This is great Pookey!
I love your argument and agree with you.
Highly recommended.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
LeBron is LeBron
I’m sure he already has a a short list of teams he’d like to play for and I wouldn’t be surprised to see him sit on all offers until team rosters have settled down—meaning he won’t make a decision until the middle or end of summer.
I want
Donte Greene to realize “The Prophecy”
by TheFifthMookie on Apr 25, 2010 11:34 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I think you mean "The Prophecé"
Judgment day is coming!
by Widowwolf on Apr 25, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
no matter how it's spelled
I hope Donté succeeds and becomes a bigtime NBA player, there’s just something about the kid that I really like and want to root for, be it the laid back style or the way he acts in an interview, I’m not sure.
by TheFifthMookie on Apr 25, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
there’s just something about the kid that I really like and want to root for
Completely agree. I am not sure if he is going to be a star, or even this league for another 5 years, but i sure hope he keeps improving and stays here for awhile. Love his energy and humor.
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Apr 26, 2010 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree – even if he’s never anything but a Pollard-level player, I’m good with that. I like positive role models. I like people who are down to earth and just cool to listen to and watch and be around.
by Charles L. Pierro on Apr 26, 2010 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions
spot on analysis
The Kings are in hold cash mode, not bold flash mode. They have money now but all signs point to them having a mirage not an Arena and using the CBA 2011 as a bargaining chip to their fans – it is “we should wait” not “we don’t want to cash commit anymore than we have to”.
Geoff Petrie made the media rounds on KHTK this week – Grant and Mike, then Rise Guys and lastly Kozimor. He sang the same song on all three venues, as Jason Jones nicely summarized and you critique.
I seem to be one of the few who advocate a stake on the talent upgrade with an obtainable All-Star in David Lee. It may not be the best choice but of the 50 Top Free Agents he seems to be the best (aka reasonably obtainable) of the lot. The Kings have promise but it is of the wing and a prayer variety – Donté, Omri, Spencer, JT may or may not be the Jeff Green, Martell Webster, Nicolas Batum, Sergie Ibaka of the Kings but bonafide stars – at this point, probably not. The Kings need another dominant player and an overall talent upgrade to become more than this year’s Memphis Grizzlies or Houston Rockets of 2010 or the 2007 GSW at the best.
by betweentheeyes on Apr 25, 2010 11:34 AM PDT reply actions
uh, bad editing by me (once again)
The young’uns may be equivalent to the core of the Blazers/Thunder (not may not).
by betweentheeyes on Apr 25, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
I would not be mad if the kings sat on the money
could make a trade like the Thunder just by eating up money from another team. Plus I would rather have Petrie trade for a guy than sign him in the off season.
Still waiting for the Euler of basketball to play for the Kings
Agreed. that flexibility would be huge.
The fanbase doesn’t expect to be a playoff team next year. If we suck, ah well. The fans would be happy with just improvement.
Screw you Knicks! LBJ to the Kings!!!
Uhh, what fanbase?
The only fanbase that doesn’t expect something something good from the team are the 8,000 hardcore fans + the 2,000 “just lookin for something to do in Sac” fans that make up the 10,000 fans who show up every night to the arena. The other 7,000+ fans it takes to fill up the arena are expecting something more.
I agree with everything TZ wrote. I’m not saying go out & sign Rudy Gay to a max contract or whoever because smart decisions still have to be made. All I’m saying is don’t sit on your hands because not only is the fanbase going to get restless but the players are too. I’m sure “the blueprint” doesn’t include 3 years of losing & 2 more years of mediocrity.
Also there isn’t any simple answers of trade this guy, draft that guy, keep this guy, give up on that guy, or spend on that guy. It is all a delicate situation that needs to be handled by a basketball professional. I believe Petrie is the guy but only if the Maloofs allow him to be that guy. Without the money it doesn’t matter what GP thinks it will take to get us to the next level.
I love beating dead horses.
by allbenji's on Apr 25, 2010 8:04 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Canadiens don't really count as international in relation to Americans JuM.
I recognize it’s a different country and customs, but that’s true of California in relation to the Eastern Seaboard for instance.
Otherwise I do agree there are international fans.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Yuh. :P
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Agreed, TZ
Look, we’re going to overpay for any top flight free agent. That being the case, I have a very short list of players that I would overspend on (LeBron, Wade, Bosh, maaaaaybe Stoudemire).
We have an interior defense problem, one that I would like to see us address with a short term fix (Dalembert or Chandler – both expiring contracts) while our young players evolve.
Evans will be better next year. Landry will be better next year. Amongst JT, Hawes, Greene and Casspi, one or two of them will be better. Our rookie will make some level of contribution. Add a short term defensive stopper, and you are a 35 team win, and you would have a ton of cap space for 2011 and another lottery pick (likely to be in the 10-11 range). You also have the benefit of knowing a lot more as to how the new CBA is going to impact your team financially.
Interesting times.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I'm a supporter of this strategy - as long as we can absorb the contract without giving up any of our prized pieces
Hawes, fine, though I still think he can go the Chris Kaman route and tidy up.
Dalembert/Chandler are actually worse players than JT in my opinion, both because they are so functionally useless on offense.
Greene, to me, has the most potential out of any player on the team, maybe even on par with Tyreke, and it is very foolish to give up on a third year player when you aren’t contending.
The Kings won’t trade Casspi, even if he doesn’t improve, because of business reasons. Dude is a cash cow.
If any of our younger players is expendable at this point, it is Spencer. That being said, If we ship him out to Philly and use our Cap Space for Dalembert, I wouldn’t be completely for it, but it makes sense.
You know what else makes sense. Ian Manhimi. DO IT KINGS.
by VenomySnicket on Apr 25, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm thinking more along the lines
of a team looking for salary relief, and dumping a guy for a 2nd round pick (like Denver did with Camby or Phoenix with Kurt Thomas).
If Charlotte or Philly were looking to dump these guys for a future 2nd round pick, deal me in. I would not give up any prospects (and I would be hesistant to give up our 33rd pick this year) to obtain Chandler or Dalembert.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Phoenix got the Thunder's TPE
No 2nd rounder was required for that.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Actually,
Phoenix had to ship Thomas and two first round picks to Seattle for a conditional 2nd round pick. Link here.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
That's wrong
There’s no way Seattle had cap space at that time. They were over the cap.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
The point is -
Phoenix was looking to dump salary, and they gave Thomas away. Just like Denver did with Camby. Just like Utah did when they gave away Maynor along with Harpring’s salary. Just like New Orleans did when they gave Sacramento the cash to take Armstrong.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I know what the point was.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
They might have traded a 2nd round pick too though. So the 2nd round pick might have been a part of the deal, but that's not why Phoenix did it.
Patricia Bender’s site for the 07-08 team.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
And remember,
this trade took place after the Ray Allen trade and after Rashard Lewis signed with Orlando, so I think that the Sonics did indeed have cap space.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
No they had a TPE. Which they got from the Rashard Lewis S&T.
I don’t want to argue.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not arguing
I’m trying to understand your previous statement that the Sonics did not have the cap space to make their deal with Phoenix. Bottom line, Seattle received draft picks and Kurt Thomas and had to give up little in return. The KIngs are positioned to do a similar type of deal if the right sutior comes along.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Yes I understand what your'e saying.
What I’m saying is the Sonics didn’t have cap space. (You don’t want the explanation. It’s too long boring and stupid.) They had the TPE. That’s how they acquired Kurt Thomas.
The Kings acquired Sam Cassell, Will Solomon and Dominic McGuire the same way I believe.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Sam Cassell & Solomon were acquired using TPE's. I suspecct McGuire was too.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Jesus, pookey
This does not change my point at all – it’s semantics and pulling the fly sh*t out of the pepper. Thanks for your interpretation.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Since the CBA is semantics...
…I suppose the Kings should fire Jason Levien then.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Yes, pookey
They should fire Jason Levien.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Apr 25, 2010 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Since the topic of TPE’s came up, here is Coon’s explanation of them at Hoopsworld.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Strange argument you two are having.
You are both correct- Pookey, what Section is saying is that the Kings can use their cap space this year in the same way that the Sonics used the TPE to acquire a player that another team wants relief from. The fact that the Sonics were over the cap is moot- they were under the luxury tax but again, semantics. Fact is, cap space or a TPE can yield a player in this market, especially with the current economy and the fear of a new CBA looming. If I am not mistaken, a TPE has no actual value so a player or pick needs to be added to any deal even if that pick is of the 2028 conditional type.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
A TPE has value up to a certain salary (10 million, 5 million, 850K things like that).That's the whole point of them: To take salary in a trade.
This isn’t true when you’re a team with cap space and are making a trade. When the Clippers traded for Camby, they technically had to give the Nuggets “something” for Camby. Hence the heavy conditions of the 2nd round pick.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
My point-
TPE’s are like coupons with an expiration date. They have no “cash value” and must be accompanied with a something that does have monetary value like a player or a 1st or 2nd round pick (although I have no idea if someone would actually pay for a 2nd rounder).
The actual dollar value of the TPE can vary but a team cannot give up a player and only receive a TPE in exchange for said player. Something else has to accompany the TPE.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
Looks like I'm wrong here. Clearly I remembered wrong.
My bad JJ & 214.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
That's what I said. LOL
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
how many if's of tomorrow do you stack against the needs of today?
Watching the Miami Heat in the playoffs today I worry about the Kings. A high draft pick that is yet to produce, a one star team that can win but to what end? Without more talent a first round exit is the best to expect.
Team building is a complicated gamble. You have to now when to hold, when to fold them, when to walk away, when to run. You never count your money when you’re sittin’ at the table, there’ll be time enough for countin’ when the dealin’s done.. They have ante-ed up. It may not be the right time or the right prospects available, but it has to be a strong consideration. I am only confident that no matter what the Kings do, there will plenty of criticism
by betweentheeyes on Apr 25, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Pat Riley has never put a quality team together. The one title he got in Miami was more about lucky than genius on his part.
I am only confident that no matter what the Kings do, there will plenty of criticism
There is never one right answer. I’m convinced of this. What I’m not convinced of is that the other “right” answers are right.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
lucky fool or strategic genius
he did it. I admire the results but certainly not the methods, which were ruthless. Splurge and win a title, then dissemble and build up again. The Celtics repeated that tactic for the build up, the tear down will be likewise painful.
by betweentheeyes on Apr 25, 2010 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions
The title was well, well worth it.
I’d rather have one title then 3 50 win seasons and lose in the 2nd or 3rd round.
BOOK IT!
I don't think Landry will be better next year
That is not a knock on Landry
Landry is a great mid-range & low post scorer. I don’t know how much better he can get in those areas.
I don’t see him being a better rebounder(maybe 1 or so rebounds better) Rebounding is about effort, insticts, height, position or all of the above.
I believe Landry has the effort & he can improve on position which will get him the 1 or so more I mentioned but heighth can’t be taught & insticts you are born with or take many years to improve on.
I love beating dead horses.
Heighth might be the least impotant
To be more specific I don’t think he has the Brockman/Lee like insticts.
I love beating dead horses.
You may be right
But you’re talking about a guy that has gotten better each and every year, as he went from a scrapping to make a roster, to a contributor, to a prime low post presence and 6th man of the year candidate. Now, as the clear cut starter for a team that is presently bereft of alternative low post options, Landry stands to take yet another step…especially in a contract year.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I don't think he is the clear-cut starter
In fact, I like March-April JT better.
by VenomySnicket on Apr 25, 2010 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Do you think that Hawes is going to beat either of these guys out for a starting job?
I don’t see a rookie (even Cousins or Favors) being developed enough to be starting any time soon.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I hope you are right about Landry
I really like him as a player & person. He would be perfect next to tough, defensive, rebounding 7 footer.
I love beating dead horses.
GP pops his collars.
Which means something badass is upon us!
by luckybastard on Apr 25, 2010 11:44 AM PDT via mobile reply actions 2 recs
Does Petrie have his arm around an imaginary friend?
Or was he talking to Carril, and that sly Coachie slipped away in mid-sentence?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I think he's about to do a magic trick and he's showing us he's got nothing up his sleeve, or under his collar
Geez, do we all miss the Sunday GB&U caption contest, or what?
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Apr 25, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Very good points TZ
A couple things popped in my head while reading this piece:
Our situation is definitely different from OKC and Portland/ They do have more high lottery picks and thus, have had a better chance of acquiring impact players through the draft. One thing that is also different, IMO, is that the Kings have also been stockpiling good young assets with their ‘outside top 10’ picks. While the Zombies were using some picks on Robert Swift and Saer Sene, the Kings were able to pick up JT and Hawes. Aside from those who really dislike JT and HAws, can we agree that they have mor epotential and are better than who the Sonics pickes in that range?
Also, while the Blazers got Webster (high pick, actually) and Batum in the 20s, the Kings (through trade) were able to get Donte and Omri. Yes, a lot is riding in the development of this guys but we have to play the odds and believe that at least 1 or 2 could really turn into VERY important pieces (one may be a difference maker down the road – looking at you Donte).
Also, watching the playoffs sometimes I wonder, how in the hell is Jason Collins and Kyrilo Fesenko starter on a playoff team? The answer is obviously Steve Nash and Amar’e, and Deron Williams and Carlos Boozer. I’d like to think we have one impact player already in Reke, so the upcoming draft becomes even more important. We have to be able to get a hgih caliber player, don’t care the position, we just need another difference maker. IF this were to happen, then we may have a playoff team in a couple years and we could be like the Suns and the JAzz with the exception that we don’t have a Collins or Fesenko starting, we’d have a Spencer Hawes, a Jason Thompson, or a Carl Landry up there. To me, that’s a good thing
Last point, while free agency is a big part of what’s going on this summer, trades may also be available next season. With all the cap space, we could do a Maynor type trade to obtain another good player. To be fair, I don’t really recall GP ever pulling something like this (maybe my memory is off) so I don’t know is it’s realistic to expect this to happen.
Something else they could be looking to do through trade is clearing cap space by attaching one fo the young players to someone like Noce. Let’s say we draft a big and it’s decided there’s no room for 4 bigs that need minutes. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibilities that Hawes or JT are flipped for something else. Maybe they are used to get rid of Noce’s contract to create a bit more money next summer.
A lot of these is wishful thinking but that’s what we’re here for, right?
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
no doubt
A lot of these is wishful thinking but that’s what we’re here for, right?
The Maynor, Clipper Camby, and Kurt Thomas deals were fortuitous – right place, right time, right team, right deal. The hope to get that kind of a worthwhile exchange depends on opportunity and the Kings are not the sole purveyors of cap relief. At least 7 (or is it 8?) teams have cleared extensive cap room this summer. How many will (be able) to spend it?
by betweentheeyes on Apr 25, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
True
and howmany of those will overpay for a second tier FA just to appease their fan base? I have no problem spending as long as it’s for the right piece and the right $$. As always, have the people will hate the move, and half will love it.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
and they will both be right
just ask them
As always, half the people will hate the move, and half will love it.
by betweentheeyes on Apr 25, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Uhhh, they actually had an Okur or a Robin Lopez starting
but those dudes got injured.
Screw you Knicks! LBJ to the Kings!!!
You can still find other examples
that illustrate my point. Having great players leading a playoff team enables them to start average players
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
yea, but that usually makes you an average playoff team.
At this piont, we’d all be super excited to even see that on the floor. But there’s no way around it, the goal is a championship. And championship teams don’t have below average starters.
Screw you Knicks! LBJ to the Kings!!!
Of course
and that was kind of my point when I said
IF this were to happen, then we may have a playoff team in a couple years and we could be like the Suns and the JAzz with the exception that we don’t have a Collins or Fesenko starting, we’d have a Spencer Hawes, a Jason Thompson, or a Carl Landry up there
I think I can say with some certainty that JT for example looks better than a Jason Collins or a Fesenko. So if Reke elevates his game to a superstar level, then the role players we have should be better than the role players average playoff teams have right now.
Does that make sense?
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Not sinking ships.
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
iashwash, you are the voice of reason - Holmdel
petrie
those two teams drafted and traded well.. petrie drafts well but is a little iffy on trades… it seems he doesnt gamble or even squeeze the best on trade deals….
luck should also be a key factor cause those teams jumped well on lottery day….
by pakyubai on Apr 25, 2010 12:18 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
For example -
Webber for Richmond. Artest for Peja. Bibby for Williams. Christie for Williamson. Landry for Martin. Miller for Turkoglu and Pollard.
I respectfully refute your claim that Petrie does not take risks on the trade market. Some of his trades work, and some don’t. But he is not nearly as conservative as some would paint him to be.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Apr 25, 2010 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
And 1 -
As it pertains to squeezing on deals, I submit Greene and a 1st round (which begat Casspi)pick for a Ron Artest that was expiring contract. Again, sometimes he gets great value and sometimes he does not.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
The value in return is usually dependent on the value going out.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm still not a big fan of Landry for Martin.
Maybe its my Martin bias. But I think the Kings should’ve held on to Martin and tried to dangle Martin for one of Jefferson or Bosh (in a sign and trade) along with one of the young bigs (Thompson or Hawes).
I thought Petrie acted to quick on Martin. I just feel underwhelmed that all Petrie got for Martin was Landry, who is nice but I think if the team held him a bit longer could’ve gotten a better big man. Landry is a 4th wheel on a playoff/contending team, IMO.
BOOK IT!
I feel it could have been more worth it
If the Rockets didn’t get everything for giving up nothing outside of Landry. They wanted to get rid of Mcgrady so bad I’m sure they would have taken less. The fact that NY gave them all of their draft picks rather than us, even though it was our call whether we were going to give them Mcgrady pissed me off. I’m not against the trade, but I think there could have been some moves to make it more worth it for the Kings. The way I saw it was no Kings-no deal. We should have been in the driving seat and I feel we didn’t step up.
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 25, 2010 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think all of those mentioned were risks
Webber for Richmond is debatable. A possible superstar type big with red flags for a many years franchise star on a possible career downslide?
Artest for Peja? Debatable. A crazy, possible franchise killer, all-star defensive monster & player of the year to a team desperate for a defensive presence for a dynamite 3 point shooter, former mvp candidate, fan favorite, soft, can’t score a point in a critical 4th quarter to save his life, up for a new contract player on a possible downslide especially when it comes to injuries.
Miller for Hedo/Pollard? No risk at all imo. An all-star starting center for a back-up sf & a back-up, roll playing center? No brainer unless you consider Millers contract a risk which would be valid.
Landry for Martin I agree was risky.
Corliss for Christie I don’t know much about.
J-Will for Bibby was risky.
I love beating dead horses.
Webber had plenty of risk involved
Character issues in Washington, and no desire to come to Sacramento.
The Artest acquisition was Palace-of-Auburn-Hills Ron, and that was plenty risky.
I was considering the investment in Miller when the deal was made.
Bottom line, if you look at Petrie’s trade record, he is not nearly as conservative or ineffective as a lot of people infer.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
In fact I think overall
He was damn effective when it came to making the team better. The meh trades came when we were trying to rebuild on the fly.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
I think
some people get the “Petrie trades are meh” from the Webber to the Sixers deal. Not his best, but he’s made some damn good deals.
And Petrie wasn't dealing in a position of power on that one
But it was a good thing he got rid of him when he did, because otherwise we would have likely been set back even further.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
There's a chance the Kings aren't in Sac if the Kings don't deal Webber.
The amount of money it would have cost the franchise might have been a complete tank job without the actual tanking.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I wasn't necessarily agreeing that GP doesn't take risks
Just pointing out a few of the trades mentioned I felt could be argued were not as risky as seemed. I mentioned a little of both sides which to me were pretty even thus lees risky.
I love beating dead horses.
Landry for Martin is an ok trade now
It could turn into a great trade or a horrible trade depending on what we do with the money we cleared.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
And Martin's health
The dude is injury prone.
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Apr 26, 2010 1:37 AM PDT up reply actions
And Martin's game!
Sure he puts up 21 a night. But he gives up 30. (when hes not injured that is). Oh and he was wayyyyyyyyyyy overpaid.
by ridingthebench on Apr 26, 2010 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions
The Kings have Tyreke and backups
If the Kings end up missing out on Wall or Turner they will end up taking a big man who will be better than Thompson or Hawes. This leaves a glut of front court players with only Landry and the draft pick being playoff quality. Thompson is mentally fragile and Hawes is is too weak to play in the paint. At the same time shooting guard will be totally unaddressed with Beno (a point guard) and Garcia (a bench player on any remotely good team). In this situation I’d beg for Joe Johnson or they’ll be bad again and hope for a SG in next years lottery.
I’d say Evan Turner at SG or Wall with Tyreke moving to SG would be the best thing to ever happen to this franchise. Casspi will be a great SF eventually and Landry is great now. Hawes with Thompson behind him would be the only glaring weaknesses in my opinion.
your statements are a overly harsh IMO
but the sentiment is understandable. I believe we can agree that the Kings need a talent infusion and that it will not happen overnight, nor over one season but hopefull two.
by betweentheeyes on Apr 25, 2010 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Of the 8 or so bigs that will be taken in the 1st round, which ones will come in and be better than JT?
There’s only a couple that are even NBA ready at this point. Even Wall and Turner aren’t even close to being complete players, lacking in shooting the long jumper and superior ball handling. We were spoiled by the immediate impact of Evans. But, don’t fool yourself into thinking tha anyone in this draft will have the impact tha Evans did.
There are only two players that could take minutes away from JT: Cousins and Hawes.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Favors could take minutes away.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
aye
Umm... I thought we were officially referring to Voison as the Chick Replacing Amick at the Paper? or CRAP, for short.
by sac_faithful on Apr 25, 2010 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions
That's the way I see it, with Aldrich close behind.
Favor down the road for sure, but not next fall.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Right, Aldrich
I forgot about him. He is NBA ready & would probably be the best big on the team.
I love beating dead horses.
Please explain how JT is mentally fragile.
Can you offer anything to back up your argument? Or is this just your arbitrary assertion?
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Apr 25, 2010 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I think he is mentally weak too
I didn’t think that was hidden at all. The coaches say all the time that he needs to get out of his own head because it affects his game. He isn’t mentally fragile in the way that he doesn’t go out and try, but that he cares too much and beats him self up when he doesn’t perform to the expectations he sets for himself. Overall I think he just thinks too much. That being said it’s not a knock on him, I see great things and I love his passion, I just think it could be directed a little better.
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 25, 2010 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Overly self critical but mentaly weak is stretching it.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
That sounds more accurate
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 25, 2010 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions
It was his second year in the league. It'll only get better.
But to say someone is mentally fragile implies a character trait. Mental fragility is not a character trait of JT that I know of…that’s my point.
Also, I don’t understand what you meant when you wrote “I didn’t think that was hidden at all.”
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Apr 26, 2010 1:41 AM PDT up reply actions
I just meant the coaches were open about it that's all
But if you look up jjham15 said overly self critical would be a better way to put it and I agree. Mentally weak is too strong for what is going on with JT, I was just trying to explain what I thought mavis meant when they said mentally weak.
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 26, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Nice write up TZ
I think the most likely thing that will happen is Hawes + filler for some big guy that is more expensive but more conventional.
I agree we’re very unlikely to spend a lot of money on a free agent, because we’re too far away to identify the person we need. Petrie is going to go shopping with his money and try to find another guy like a Landry that isn’t super-high profile but he thinks can grow into something. Whether he finds that or not is a different question, but I’d be shocked if we spent $12+ million on a guy this offseason.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
Lotta teams out there with tax problems.
If the Kings wanted Dalembert for nothing, I’m sure Philly do that deal.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Dalembert isn't going to cash flow as an aquisition though
He’s not going to equate to enough wins to bring in enough attendance to be worth his salary, so I don’t think we’re going to do that.
I’m thinking Hawes for some 28ish year old $8 mil or so guy. Or even better a 25 year old guy GP liked.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
And those players are...
It’s nice to talk generically, but unless that player exists (who?) were just wasting time talking about bullshit
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Apr 25, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Strangely
I thought the purpose of a thread to discuss events that won’t happen until the summer when its April now was to “waste time talking about bullshit”.
Go ahead and start adding facts related to what we’re going to do months from now please. I’m eager to listen.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
Ok then, I think the Kings should use their cap room on a talented 25 year old big that only makes 8 million a year
My point is that player doesn’t exist. In the rare cases they do exist teams won’t just let them go, because their salary doesn’t hurt the te. If your plan is to take a big from a team in need of cap space, it will probably be one with a less than ideal contract.
My point is that we can ask for a young, fair contract
big guy to be handed to the Kings, but I’d like an example of that situation. I’d love for there to be such a player out there, but I can’t think of one. If that situation doesn’t exist, then we are just wishing for unicorns. I’d rather talk about something could actually happen.
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Apr 25, 2010 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree
but you may have come across a little harsh. I’ve been wondering as well where all of these big men that have good contracts are that people are always talking about. I think you have to get really lucky to get one of those guys or pay tons of cash for them. That is why big men have the majority of bad contracts, because good dominant big men are such a rare commodity that any team that lands one holds on for dear life, but unfortunately many bust and the team is stuck with a crappy contract. I don’t want to be one of those teams.
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 25, 2010 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions
You're right, I did come across a bit harsh
My bad Grasul. I just tire of people wanting these “young, talented and not overpaid big men” to come to the Kings. They dont exist. And when they do, teams arent going to just let them go
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Apr 25, 2010 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Troy Murphy comes to mind.
But I think it would take JT to do that. I’d do that myself, but I’m talking shit (as I tend to do).
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
That's the kind of thing I think will happen, if anything.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
Would you support that type of deal?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Murphy for JT?
I wouldn’t, because I don’t see the upside really.
I would sit on the money (barring a truly elite guy coming) until I got an offer from someone that converted my money directly into talent I knew I wanted, ala $$$ for Eric Maynor, $$$ for #1s, etc. I’m not sure Murphy is enough better than JT that its a no brainer.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
Murphy vs JT. All I’ll add toward this.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Or Jt here.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Also
Troy Murphy: 29 years old, 621 games played, $11.9 mil in 2010-2011
Jason Thompson: 23 years old, 157 games played, $3 mil in 2010-2011
How does Troy Murphy help the Kings in the future more than Jason Thompson?
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
It's about next year and having flexibility in 2011.
The future is what it is: The future.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
So it's about
improving our rebounding next year and adding an expiring contract?
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Not the expiring contract.
Just the flexibility for 2011.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
How do you create that flexibility though
I’m really trying to work with you here. Would the deal you propose include getting Rid of Noce’s contract or Cisco’s or Beno’s? Because all I see is JT going out for Murphy who helps us next year and that’s it.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
How valuable is JT?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Shamsports
says $2.1 this coming year, $3 mil 11/12, $4.1 mil 12/13. That’s good value for his production.
Are you trying to clear $3 mil off the books?
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Nope.
I would totally do Murphy for Jt/Noce. I just wonder would Indy.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Ok
I’d think about that one. Not sure I’d do it, but I’d at least think about it. See how much easier it is when you just answer the question?
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
I was answering it before.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Nope
I was asking about JT’s value. That was the answer.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I know Enlgish is my second language
but I don’t think that’s an answer to the question:
Would the deal you propose include getting Rid of Noce’s contract or Cisco’s or Beno’s?
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Mwahahahahaha
Yeah English is your 2nd language. There’s a bridge in Lake Havisu AZ I’d like to sell you.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
That's not English.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'd absorb Murphy's deal with our cap space....
with some added incentive coming our way in the form of some combination of cash(to offset his salary) and pick and/or prospects depending on who we’re talking about here.
Indiana won't do that I suspect.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
JT for Murphy? Are you kidding me?!?!
Come on now Pookey, this is ludicrous.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
No shit!!!
Fuck Troy Murphy. I’d trade Hawes for him, but not JT. This next season is JT’s 3rd season…and we all know season 3 is the make or break year.
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Apr 26, 2010 1:46 AM PDT up reply actions
I think his double double average is coming this year
and I’m excited for it
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 26, 2010 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
So is your love for JT.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
JT is a good kid, and he’s got the physical tools to become a very good kid. Yes, he’s got a bit to learn, but I think that I’d certainly need some value incoming to get rid of him. Murphy is too old for me to really want to gamble. JT realizing his potential would decimate Murphy, who has certainly already reached his.
by Charles L. Pierro on Apr 26, 2010 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions
One thing we know JT won’t do is sit around and be satisfied. He’ll work extremely hard to become better.
by Charles L. Pierro on Apr 26, 2010 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Like TZ I hope they're not just sitting on their hands in the name of patience.
But I also don’t want them to run out and spend the money just to spend it. Overpaying someone is the worst case scenario, especially with the new CBA looming. It should all be case by case and opportunistic.
That said, I personally think the ideal would be trying to clear out Garcia’s and Nocioni’s salaries and set things up for 2011, possibly using the cap space to capitalize (say, Nocioni and cap room for Peja and a 1st Rounder to get NO under the tax). I think that’s a better long term use of the space than overpaying a veteran with the available space.
I'd do Noc for Peja straight up without the 1st rounder. But I doubt the Kings would.
Getting another 1st round pick doesn’t seem like a bad way to go in that scenario.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Tyreke isn't LeBron? Or even Durant?
Good thing it’s your site, Tom. Otherwise about 70% of the commenters would demand you be banned.
Or killed.
Interesting analysis, definitely hoping the brass are able to see the differences you elucidated.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.
I beg to differ. Tyreke is the best. You just don't see it.
And to prove it I submit this:
this grilled cheese Virgin Mary sold for $28,000. You poor limited non believer.
by betweentheeyes on Apr 25, 2010 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Virgin my ass.
Looks more like Marilyn Monroe. And I don’t think she was a virgin.
Not that Mary really was either, but that’s a different conversation.
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Apr 25, 2010 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions
That was the first thing that came to mind as well.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
That this looks more like Marilyn Monroe
or that Mary wasn’t a virgin?
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
I wonder if he/she took that bite after they noticed the miracle, just because they were hungry and they already went through the trouble of making the sandwich
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Apr 25, 2010 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions
The immaculate consumption
Tanking? I don't know what you're talking about, tanking. I'm just losing more efficiently.
by elfboy_ on Apr 25, 2010 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd do it...
just to be able to say “I ate the Virgin Mary.”
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Apr 26, 2010 1:47 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Apr 26, 2010 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Believing Tyreke is Lebron or Durant
is better than thinking Troy Murphy is the answer.
I love beating dead horses.
Clearly, nobody thinks Troy Murphy is Allen Iverson.
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Apr 26, 2010 1:48 AM PDT up reply actions
now thats funny
There will never be another Kareem.
by MichaelMack on Apr 26, 2010 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Tyreke is Tyreke. It’s going to be real hard to compare him to anyone yet. Yes, he had his 20-5-5, and that’s awesome. But we won’t know who Tyreke really is for another two to four years. We know he’ll be good – even if he never improves from this season, he’ll be good. We can be pretty sure he’ll improve.
He may become better than Durant and Lebron. He may become the best player to ever play the game. He probably won’t, but he might. You never know. He could become a better player than Wade, or maybe he’ll be better than Bryant. Maybe not. Maybe he’ll just be a Redd, or a Salmons – maybe he’ll be a McGrady. He probably won’t, but you never know. He might.
We don’t know anything yet.
For now, we know we have one real good player on this team, and that is all we know.
by Charles L. Pierro on Apr 26, 2010 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I think Geoff's plan is this:
Draft the best player/fit in the draft this year that he sees fit,
Sign the best player on a reasonable contract as possible
Make the best trade possible and use the leverage he’s acquired via flexibility and assets
to overall improve the team.
Sorry if it simple, generic and general, but that’s what he’s planning on doing.
by Smills9133 on Apr 25, 2010 1:38 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
also the Kings hope to win more games next year
Still waiting for the Euler of basketball to play for the Kings
So, you're saying Geoff will use only
the draft, free agents and trades to acquire players. And furthermore, he will do this in an attempt to improve the team?
Hmm…Sure, it’s it’s risky. It’s unorthodox, to boot…but, it just might work. It just might work.
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Apr 25, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wish he went the traditional way of making a contender
of robbing teams blind in unfair trades that other GMs are too stupid to notice. He needs more Jedi mind trickery.
Tanking? I don't know what you're talking about, tanking. I'm just losing more efficiently.
Add a little collusion and we're set
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 25, 2010 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, who will be our
“Kevin McHale”?
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Apr 26, 2010 1:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Wait a second. You mean, those were the driods we were looking for?
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Apr 26, 2010 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I think people are forgetting that the Kings FO
Is always quiet and misleading about what they are doing in actuality (I mean the owners run casinos, pa pa pa poker face). I wouldn’t be surprised if they did something big in the way of a trade because I think they know that it will be hard to lure a big name FA w/out overpaying them. It also seems to be the way they like to do that business. But then again, I wouldn’t be surprised if they did something completely different, they know what they are doing. I’m more concerned about getting the ground broken for a new arena.
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 25, 2010 2:13 PM PDT reply actions
When it comes to gambling, the House (Maloof's) never risk their own money.
The odds are always in their favor, and your only trying to win back what you paid them for the room, food & entertainment.
I still maintain that the biggest of the FA’s stay put. Amare, Wade & LeBron stay put. The only player I see moving is Bosh and possibly Boozer. With so many teams having major cap space, the best will be picked up quickly for top dollar. There’s not going to be much leftover for the Kings to aquire unless they go crazy high in salary, and that’s not happening until the Maloof’s know for sure that the arena is a done deal and they won’t have to pay the $30M fee to move.
If the Kings get luck and pick up a backcourt player with the #1 pick, I think they’ll take a big with potential in the 2nd round and forgo the FA market all together. Of course, if some team comes along looking to move talent or picks for cap space, that’s something I feel the Kings might do. We have a decent 3 man rotation down low, that gives us scoring and rebounding(we’re 10th overall) so we don’t need to waste money on the marginal bigs available in free agency.
And, If we take a big with the 1st pick, we’ll probable go for a guard that can shoot the 3 in free agency, and take the best player available with the 2nd round pick.
So, as far as using our cap space, we don’t need to waste it on a big and don’t need to spend much of it for a backup 3pt shooter. We hold on to it and wait for the bargains to come knocking at the door.
The West is going to be even more competetive next year with Yao, Oden and Griffin coming back from injury. So, even with two quality additions to the team next year, were still not a playoff team. And, as TZ said we’ll still be 2 top 5 draft picks behind Portland and Oklahoma so we’ll need the time for the young players to develop and the team to learn PW’s system. So, put a lock on the checkbook GP.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Gotta disagree about the Kings being a top 10 rebounding team.
In Dreb%, they’re 17th. In Oreb%, they’re 9th. I know you’re looking at raw totals, but that doesn’t take into account pace. The Kings need to get better at rebounding if they are going to make the playoffs in the foreseeable future.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Its easy to get alot of rebounds when you miss all the time
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 25, 2010 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions
The Kings are exactly at the league average in shooting percentage,
so that’s not as big a factor as you might think. Pookey is correct at we are a poor Defensive rebounding team, but I’m not sure that replacing JT or Spencer with a higher priced Free Agent is going to make that big of an improvement. There are only 13 double digit rebounders in the league this season, and JT averaged 8.5. There are 28 players that are averaging more rebounds than JT but only Dalembert and Haywood look to be available next summer. But they only average 1 rebound per game more than JT, so why pay big dollars for 1 rebound more, assuming JT doesn’t improve his numbers by staying on the floor by fouling less.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
We could be better at dreb
if we forced more misses. We did well in some games, got lucky in others, and got skewered in the rest.
Tanking? I don't know what you're talking about, tanking. I'm just losing more efficiently.
Dreb% is a estimate based on possible available rebounds
Not exactly pure science, but ok. The reason I perfer actually numbers is because averages look alot bigger than the real think. The Kings are exactly 1% out of 9th place based on those defensive percentages, which in my mind doesn’t justifiy major dollars to improve by 1%.
Using HoopData, the Kings Defensive Rebounding Rate has them in 18th which is exactly 0.5% behind the 10th place team. And the Offensive Rebounding Rate is 6th place 2.5% out of 1st place. Their Total Rebounding Rate is 15th and 2.08% out of 1st place.
Look a little further and NBA.com, which is where I got top 10, has them averaging 42.62 rebounds per game in 10th place and 1.89 Rebounds per game out of 1st place in the league.
So, while you are correct that pace of play isn’t factored into any of these numbers, the increase of 1% in rebound percentage or 1 rebound more per game isn’t worth the added cost. Also, by replacing JT or Spencer with a higher priced FA doesn’t necessarily improve the winning percentage any more than better FT shooting, fewer fouls, fewer turnovers or better 3pt shooting. And those changes can be accomplished with our present roster at the same base salary.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Apr 25, 2010 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah I disagree with everything you say here.
But that’s fine.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I agree mostly with what you are saying
I also firmly believe that MANY teams are going to be let down when those big names stay put. Although, I do think there is a possibility that Amare moves, and possibly Wade and Bosh, mostly Bosh. I don’t see LeBron leaving just to start over with another crappy team that will take time to build. Back to my post though, I wasn’t trying to suggest what to do with the money, I was just merely pointing out that we never have a good idea of what the Kings FO is going to do and I was guessing trade because they tend to go that route and like you said, the free agents are going to get paid too much. Personally I wouldn’t mind sitting out of this free agency, it has terrible contracts written all over it.
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 25, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I can go along your opinion on free agency,
As far as the FO, there is some recent history. Mason, Idoka, May all signed to minimum contract and Brockman only signed for 1 year. Then when you consider that FA’s are going to want at least MLE money and multiyear contract, while at the same time most people here want to get rid of Noc, Cisco, & Beno because they have similar contracts. It seems like the safe bet for the Maloofs is to hold on to the cash until we see what we end up with next season.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
haha
Jeff Harden
Don't say stupid shit. You won’t be perceived as stupid. - pookeyguru
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 25, 2010 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Perhaps the Thunder are interested
in music lessons for the whole family in the New Dundee area.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
Am I just having a glass of the Kool-Aid?
And let’s face it: Evans isn’t Durant, and probably will never be Durant. I’m as starry-eyed as the next guy, but Durant is a LeBron rival. He’s not of this planet. Anyone projecting Evans to rival Durant or LeBron within a few years is bargaining with lunacy. Reke’s great, and a hard-worker, and the brightest star Sacramento’s ever had. But he’s not Durant.
I agree with you that Evans won’t be a Durant as they are completely different talents and Durant’s talent is huge, but beg to differ with your premise. I think Tyreke Evans is going to be one of the next stars in the NBA and it is not lunacy to say that he could rival any elite player. Sure, saying he will is a bit off the hook, but there is no reason to be pessimistic. Don’t take our hope of having an elite player away from us here.
I personally don’t think I am drinking Kool-Aid to say that. Though I would qualify this by saying that I think the comparison is between Lebron and Wade (somewhere in between). The comparison to Durant doesn’t wash, but it works to say Tyreke could be more of a Dwayne Wade, but maybe as a better passer like Lebron.
OK, now before I get flamed for being optimistic let me say, this is contingent on developing a jumpshot. If Evans can’t do that then forget it. He won’t get there.
Otherwise, I can see your argument and think that we might follow the Portland model more than the Thunder. Combining talent and FAs may be a better mix, but I do like the idea of long-term success by developing young talent. I think that suits GPs talents better than picking FAs.
Agree Mustang
that Reke is more of a D Wade type player, and while I’m optimistic like you, I think TZ is just playing it safe (though I don’t want to speak for him).
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Kool-aid is yummy. I look forward to drinking some with Three Point Shoot Out Champion Tyreke Evans.
Screw you Knicks! LBJ to the Kings!!!
I like your kool aid, but...
disagree with the second half. Geoff has made some bad decisions with MLEs, but look at some of the FAs he has signed: Vlade, Barry, Maxwell, Scot Pollard, Tony Delk, Bobby Jackson, Salmons, and Udrih (good initial signing even if you don’t like MLE).
So, what you're saying is... no Rudy Gay?
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
iashwash, you are the voice of reason - Holmdel
Thank God!
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Yeah, normally I would be all over a hyper-athletic small-forward with length and a decent jumpshot.
But Rudy Gay is not the real deal. Not at all.
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
iashwash, you are the voice of reason - Holmdel
Donte Greene?
hyper-athletic small forward with lenght and a decent jumpshot
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Compared to Rudy Gay he's grounded.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Yeah, DG is athletic
but Sac fans overrate his athleticism because we’ve been starved of it for so long. Rudy Gay has crazy hops… some GM’s would possibly say 40-50 million dollar hops. That’s more hops than a Sam Adam’s. That’s more hops than a pogo stick. That’s more hops than a rabbit race. That’s more ho… you get the picture.
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
iashwash, you are the voice of reason - Holmdel
When your 6-10 with good speed how much hops do you really need?
Omri and Donte get up there pretty good. We could us some more from the PF position, and maybe the guard position, but I think the hopper is full at the SF spot.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
You have blatant disregard for hops, Mr. HighTops.
Like, you can have a box that rocks, but better than that is a box that rocks and rocks. So while I’m happy with a SF that hops, I would certainly not mind a SF that hops and hops. Now DG hops and bops, and OC hops and pops, both of which are almost as good as hops and hops, even though Sean May hops and drops. For everyone else’s sake agree there so my rhymes can stops.
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
iashwash, you are the voice of reason - Holmdel
by iashwash on Apr 25, 2010 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 11 recs
It's hard to argue with logic that air tight
Rec’d
Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal
by 27freethrows on Apr 25, 2010 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Or with poetry that tops and rocks.
Reke’d Mr. iashwash
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
It took alot of effort to not end with "but Nocioni gets pulled over by cops"
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
iashwash, you are the voice of reason - Holmdel
by iashwash on Apr 26, 2010 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cousins
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Apr 26, 2010 1:51 AM PDT up reply actions
also Ed, I spelled "length" correctly. WTF.
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
iashwash, you are the voice of reason - Holmdel
I wanted to add my own 'non american' flavor
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Just say no to Rudy Gay.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Jeeethith Christhh!
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Apr 25, 2010 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions
caption
Petrie: And this is where I want you to put the donuts
Can someone check this kids ID???Hes only 20 years old??
....yes u say that every game peaches, i think we got it by now
Not a big fan of this sentiment
I’ve read a lot of this cap-space speculation here at StR and think it’s naive. From all inclinations, the Maloofs are running a business. A few years ago, they were fans. We here often get too focused on basketball operations, but there is a financial side of things (not salary cap room, or a player’s market demand) that I think gets overlooked.
The Maloofs are struggling and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Basic business sense dictates that they don’t anything now that compromises their financial security. Short contracts, rookie and youth oriented, grassroots marketing campaigns, etc. Look at their moves regarding the financing of the Palms and their selling of the distributorship. These aren’t acts of shrewd market players, this is plain surviving. To ignore the notion that the overall financial security of the owners themselves isn’t a huge determining factor in their commitment to establishing long-term commitments to prohibitively expensive contracts, I think, is particularly narrow minded. The Kings are doing what Portland and OKC did, but are at different stages at a different financial time. The Kings will do nothing, and CAN’T do anytime anytime soon.
Bé foréwarnéd: I am a mémbér of StR Groupthink méntality.
If they sit around worrying about being poor, they are going to stay poor
If they go out and make a good team, they will make money a lot sooner than later. Being part of business takes risks, but without taking those risks, you go nowhere. A good chunk of their money comes from fan attendance and selling merch. Unless they pump some cash into building a good team, those things will never come, and the Kings will be on an endless cycle of suckage.
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 25, 2010 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions
The Kings will improve just from
player development alone. So the team will improve by staying put, just not as much as it would if we would spend $$ on FAs.
I have no problem with either side (spending or not) and I believe they both have benefits and weaknesses.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
This
I expect improvements from JT, Omri, and Donte without question. With just marginal improvements from those three we will be much better. And this isn’t to mention what we get in the draft (even though I don’t expect tyreke type contribution, if they go to the bench it will still be an upgrade in that regard).
JP has to sign someone in the off season to get close enough to the cap not to be penalized, but that number is very low. I think Pookey said it was something like 3 million when you consider the rookie contracts that will need to be inked this summer, but I can remember for sure.
Umm... I thought we were officially referring to Voison as the Chick Replacing Amick at the Paper? or CRAP, for short.
by sac_faithful on Apr 25, 2010 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Who is "JP"?
:P
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Apr 26, 2010 1:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Jason Levien + Geoff Petrie?
Don't say stupid shit. You won’t be perceived as stupid. - pookeyguru
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 26, 2010 7:08 AM PDT up reply actions
No...
their celeb name would definitely be Levetrie.
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Apr 26, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah...
The notion that you have to go for broke because a cyclical cycle of economics is hampering you makes a lot of sense.
For how long were the Kings popular in Sac while they sucked? I’m sorry, the Idea that you HAVE to do something is insanely baseless. They HAVE to do nothing.
Bé foréwarnéd: I am a mémbér of StR Groupthink méntality.
Thats not necessarily what I meant
Going for broke and taking calculated risks are very different. And I’m not saying it’s imperative to spend a bunch of money this summer. What I am saying is that if they sit around forever with their thumbs up their asses, the team will go nowhere (aside from in house players improving but that can only go so far) and attendance will not rise, thus keeping the Maloofs hurting for money.
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 25, 2010 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Still
Small minded perspective on economics. The Maloofs aren’t hurting for money because they Kings aren’t selling out. They are hurting because they are in an entertainment business that is screwed in economic downturns. What you fail to realize is that their entertainment business extends beyond just our beloved Kings. Their casino owners for Christ’s sake. Even then, you still fail to rationalize why the King’s were so successful while they sucked, and why they HAVE to do anything. Financially, they could be the Oakland A’s ‘FOREVER’, and be just fine.
Bé foréwarnéd: I am a mémbér of StR Groupthink méntality.
Add to this their poor investments with Madoff and Wells Fargo.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
Them being succesful while they sucked wasn't part of the argument
they were a new team in the city and people were excited, but that doesn’t matter because now they are bad and people aren’t going. I also never said they have to do anything. I understand why the Maloofs are hurting for money and that there is a lot more to it, but I left that out because I am talking about what would be needed to improve the Kings and Kings revenue, not their personal finances as a whole. The fact that the entertainment business is doing bad doesn’t have anything to do with that. I am also not trying to sound like an econ expert, I am anything but, but I do know that I don’t want to see them sit in mediocrity forever, and I don’t want to see them be the A’s forever. (not anything against the A’s but they don’t get many fans and they have the same moving rumors as we do)
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 25, 2010 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Doesn't really matter
You implied that their financial situation would be improved by making moves in free agency. The logic is flawed. There are diminishing margins of return. Tons of variables factor into this, but to say the Kings were hot because they were new, is totally baseless. They were popular in Sac for 13 plus years before the Maloofs put money into the team.
To ignore the fact that Sacramento is one of the worst hit housing markets, and to still conclude that the King’s attendance is perfectly elastic with performance is way too simplistic. Sure it’s easy to understand the correlation, but that isn’t causation. There is far greater probability that there’s more correlation to the Maloof’s financial situation, and the overall decline of luxury spending (entertainment), then the actual win/loss record of the Kings in general.
I still don’t understand why you’re differentiating smart marketing schemes vs. smart personal finances. They are one in the same when you own a business. There are far too many people who think throwing money at an equation should bring equal values in return. Not so.
I don’t want the Kings to be the A’s forever either, and I personally don’t think they will. But now, it’s plainly obvious that there’s greater financial incentive to not do anything.
Bé foréwarnéd: I am a mémbér of StR Groupthink méntality.
I have never said on any post ever that they should hit this years FA
In fact I have always said that is the last thing they should do. Too many teams are going to be disappointed because they destroyed their teams to get a big free agent who will probably stay put. That means all of the other people are going to get way overpaid. I think if they do decide to spend, it would be through trades next season or the next, after this whole mess dies down. As to trying to explain why they were good before, I can only make guesses, I am too young to have even known there was a team then. (born in ‘87) I’m not disagreeing that they don’t have to spend immediately, but eventually they are going to have to if they want to be anything more than mediocre, maybe I didn’t explain my thinking clearly, because you are thinking that I’m saying things that I didn’t
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 25, 2010 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions
And I never said
that you did. What I disagree with is this:
If they sit around worrying about being poor, they are going to stay poor
If they go out and make a good team, they will make money a lot sooner than later.
Aside from simplistic economic concepts, there is nothing to support that this is true. I’m not terribly older than you (25), and being that I was an econ major really didn’t provide me with information to dis-qualify your logic. I think it was a woman and alcohol that made me such a cynic on return of investment :).
Bé foréwarnéd: I am a mémbér of StR Groupthink méntality.
I guess that statement doesn't do my argument any justice
but hopefully you understand what I am trying to say a little bit better now.
Deeper than the stare of a man that lost it all, wider than the outstretched arms of the law, wider than the eyes of a newborn child, we're committed, to go the extra mile
by prowseinthehouse on Apr 25, 2010 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I didn't read this whole back-and-forth between you guys,
but prowse has a point. For example, if the Kings acquired Bosh in the offseason, he has enough of a name (product recognition) to excite the casual Kings fans who did not attend games this season in to going to games next season. His jersey would sell, the Kings would likely get more TV time and have a chance to go to the playoffs. All of those things generate money. I would assume enough money would be made to cover the cost of his contract.
Congrats on your econ major by the way. It’s a good one to have.
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Apr 26, 2010 1:59 AM PDT up reply actions
In theory
such things would provide you with some ROI. Whether the ROI>Large Contracts, is unsubstantiated. Teams have shown that they can be financially successful by not being saddled with large long term contracts. This can’t always be said of the opposite.
Bé foréwarnéd: I am a mémbér of StR Groupthink méntality.
Managing expectations
I think this is just the Kings way of getting ahead of the fans that are hoping for a big splash.
We don’t have any movie stars or beaches, so we aren’t going to attract many high end free agents (especially when we only won 25 games last year), so even if we tried and offered them everything we have, the top tier (LeBron,Wade, Bosh) aren’t coming to town.
Also, there is the wisdom of offering a max deal to the second tier guys like Boozer and Stoudamire who have a difficult time staying healthy. I’m not sure that is smart (especially heading into a season with the CBA in limbo).
Thus, do we really want to throw our cash around on medium tiered free agents (ask Detroit how that worked out) or do we wait for a team that needs salary help and use our leverage?
evans will be just as good as roy or durant
call me an name u want, just know that when he is a mvp type player u r nothing more than a band wagoning loser. durant/roy is/are no closer to james than evans is. about free agents, david lee is doable, if we have the money chis bosh only because evans went off vs his soon 2 be old team.
by garythenotrashcouger on Apr 26, 2010 5:28 PM PDT reply actions
u r so right thas a nice take dood
durant is all hype hes built lyk a prayin mantes he gots the mussels of a litul kid. tyreks gonna pass em all. kings going to git there ring next yeer.
I've got squirrels in my pants!
by otis29 on Apr 26, 2010 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
We have barely seen the start to Evans.
Whereas Durant is getting into his groove in the league.
You only need two top five picks on your roster
As lng as you strike Gold with both
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
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