Waiting for Larry Brown, the Mythical 'One Size Fits All' Coach
by Tom Ziller on Apr 28, 2010 11:00 AM PDT
in Commentary
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PrintAilene Voisin of the Sacramento Bee took the opportunity of Larry Brown's conquest of history in Charlotte, where the Bobcats made the postseason for the first time ever, to remind us she lobbied for the legend while the Kings instead messed around with Eric Musselman, Reggie Theus and Kenny Natt. Voisin argues that Musselman and Theus, touted by Kings' management as fresh faces on the rise, did nothing to help the development of the squad, whereas Brown turned the Bobcats from an also-ran to a playoff team (albeit one which got skunked in the first round).
Voisin has a point: Brown is still a successful coach, and Musselman nor Theus were. But to argue that the Kings would have been better off with Brown is stretching things too far.
The Kings in 2007, the year in which Brown semi-publicly lobbied for the Sacramento job after the team fired Musselman, were in a drastically different position than were the Bobcats in 2008. Sacramento was moving toward a clean slate, a youth-focused rebuild. The Bobcats were trying desperately to earn the franchise's first winning season, a premiere postseason berth. The Kings were developing a 19-year center in Spencer Hawes and drafting a 21-year-old power forward in Jason Thompson. The Bobcats were focusing on veterans, trading the team's 2007 top-10 pick for Jason Richardson. The Kings would go on to trade Mike Bibby for cap space, and the following summer Ron Artest for draft picks, and the following winter Brad Miller and John Salmons for cap space. How would Brown have responded if all the veterans were traded from under him?
You can't use a chainsaw to slice an onion, and you can't use Larry Brown to coach a team of 21-year-olds. Athens 2004 ring a bell? The tool just isn't right for the job. Never mind the potential clashes with the -- as Voisin calls him -- conservative Geoff Petrie. Why would Petrie bring in a name who would immediately challenge his position as grand poobah of Kings basketball? Why would anyone put mousetraps in their own shoes?
I have been vociferous in my lobbying for a more defensive-minded coach through each hiring process. But Brown, one of the greatest defensive minds in modern basketball, was never a plausible answer. Not in 2007. Not in 2008. It worked in Charlotte because of Charlotte's desperate needs. (And work it did.) This situation, though, is mighty different. There are no one-size-fits-all answers when it comes to coaches. That ought to be recognized when discussing where the team's gone wrong.
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I had no idea...
That we had the veteran Center we so desperately need.
The Kings were developing a 19-year center in Spencer Hawes…
This is why I don't read this CRAP
#vfettkefordraft
"The Kings will get a top 3 pick in the 2010 draft. Book it!"
To me it's simple
With Larry Brown we’d be stuck in 8-10th in the West territory with no tyreke and no hope.
CRAP
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
I think that's way too simplistic
Because that’s not so much an indictment of Larry Brown as it is of the coaches we rolled out after Adelman.
So we really would have been upset if Larry Brown had made this team better the last couple of seasons…really?
I've got squirrels in my pants!
How much better and what would have been our ceiling?
I feel like being bad for a couple years just needed to happen for this team to rebuild all the way. Larry Brown could’ve helped this team stay decent, which in turn would keep us picking in the 14-18th range in the draft.
Ultimately, I want a ring, not a playoff pretender label for years and years.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
I get that
It just sounds silly. Wouldn’t we, using this theory, have been better off leaving Natt in place so we could have won 15 games this season and had a better shot at John Wall?
I guess in my mind I hear you saying that it’s a good thing the team hired Reggie Theus and Kenny Natt. And that can never be true!
I've got squirrels in my pants!
Yes
It would have delayed the rebuilding further. That was one of the things I was upset at as much as anything.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Hard to tell
but Rubio might have come over if he had been picked by the Kings. Not to start this debacle of an argument again but no one really knows how good and/or bad RR will turn out to be. Perhaps RR will be turn out to be even better than Tyreke and in time we made a bad choice?
All-in-all I think LB would have done decent as a Kings coach and if we had picked RR it might not have been wasted at all. I do think that the Kings franchise would be left in ashes after LB left, just like all of the others.
You're right about Rubio
But his Spanish league stats this year stink. He’s getting some minutes and he can’t shoot or score and his assist totals don’t look great. It should be said that I know zip about Spanish basketball and haven’t watched Rubio play.
Not too get into all this again. but...
assists are awarded differently in Euro league- from what I’ve read his totals are actually quite impressive. This was earlier in the season, I’m not exactly checking up on the dude.
That's a big conversation
and it doesn’t really matter anyway. Although I still believe Rubio is failure.
rubio isn't a king.....yet.
if the kings don’t draft high and get john wall for example, then i would guess they are going big man. twolves have a better chance of drafting high and getting wall. if that happens i could see the kings trading JT or SH to Minny for the rights to rubio. Minny needs a big man and that would fill their need – and rubio wouldn’t be needed anymore because they’d already have a PG.
Give me Love and Rubio
They can take Hawes and Noce. Horrible trade for the Wolves. I don’t even know why I wrote that.
by VenomySnicket on Apr 28, 2010 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
;-) The tool just isn't right for the job...
Much agreed that Larry Brown’s a tool…
Great teacher of the game, sure. Great coach……Meh….
"he looks like he is going to take a bite out of a huge invisible sandwich..." - wallywagon11
Had we hired LB
and traded all the veterans from under him. He would have left for Philly LAST year instead of this year.
Blessings.Love.Peace
Want to listen to some independent music? Visit: www.nixonsghost.com
by lifestyleforthesellout on Apr 28, 2010 11:35 AM PDT reply actions
But Larry Brown is great with the youngsters!
It’s not like his treatment of the second overall pick in the draft resulted in the namesake of a very popular basketball blog or anything. Larry Brown is known for his patience with raw rookies like Donte and Brockman.
Dip til I rip
by Muff209 on Apr 28, 2010 11:39 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Plus
Sacramento’s situation at the time was different than Charlotte’s is currently. Brown may have staved off the tragic inevitability of the Kings decline temporarily, but he would have done so at the expense of the comprehensive move forward we’re currently engaged in. Maybe, maybe, the Kings could have been an 8th seed in the west had Brown been hired instead of Theus, but there’s no guarantee that that wouldn’t have consequently meant a different approach to Artest, clinging to the Bibby/Miller/Salmons skeleton and scrambling for yet another new coach, with an aging roster, when Brown bolted inevitably for Charlotte. I was never really bothered by Brown’s baggage or peripateticism. And I do think Martin could have flourished under his leadership (see Miller, Reggie and Hamilton, Richard). But if we as fans are to assume we’re on the right track with the current rebuilding mode (and it’s the most positive we’ve been collectively since Adelman’s last season) and acknowledging the presence of Brown would have unquestionably retarded that, there’s no use dwelling on the Theus disaster. That’s Minnesota’s job for the indefinite future (in other words, until the Timberwolves go on a 15 game slide sometime next December. Of course given the way that franchise has been run as of late Theus would probably be promoted to interim coach post Rambis jettison.)
by rbiegler on Apr 28, 2010 11:55 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
For using of the word peripateticism.
Whenever you think it can't possibly happen, it probably just did.
by doogman77 on Apr 28, 2010 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd.
For using of the word peripateticism.
by VenomySnicket on Apr 28, 2010 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
For using of the word peripateticism.
Whenever you think it can't possibly happen, it probably just did.
by doogman77 on Apr 29, 2010 5:57 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Reke'd
for using the word Rec’d
Don't say stupid shit. You won’t be perceived as stupid. - pookeyguru
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 29, 2010 6:03 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Use of the word peripateticism caught my attention.
I had to look at the meaning, as I am unfamiliar with the word. Apparently, my spell check is also, as it shows it as being misspelled.
Peripateticism
1. the philosophy of Aristotle, who taught while walking.
2. the followers of Aristotle, who learned by walking with him.
I am not really sure how rbigler meant it in his sentence:
I was never really bothered by Brown’s baggage or peripateticism.
Does he mean that he was never bothered by Brown’s teaching of Aristotle while walking and carrying his baggage?
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
I love the metaphor
Larry Brown is a lot like like Aristotle:
- Unique philosophy
- Highly regarded as a teacher
- Never stayed in one place very long
Or, you could simply look at the word as a super-duper fancy synonym for ‘philosophy’.
Or, you could go get a Coke from the vending machine down the hall and just skip it.
Whenever you think it can't possibly happen, it probably just did.
I liked your use of the word.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
I was just playing with it.
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
It was rbiegler who used the word
I just repeated it, like a parrot.
Whenever you think it can't possibly happen, it probably just did.
Agree with Biegler Smalls.........(Partially)
I’m not sure Brown’s tag for nurturing young players holds water at this stage of his career. The guy’s in his 70’s…and he seems to have less of a long range focus with the Cats (Two starters are well into thier 30’s and can’t be considered a part of the team’s long term plan). His trades seemed to be a veteran patch to make the playoffs this year. Add in his tendency to get a little restless every 2-3 years and this could have seriously stunted the King’s inevitable restructure….(not that Musselman/Theus/Natt didn’t to an extent). In short, I think the King’s are seeing the cloud’s silver lining by NOT going with a retread quick-fix like Brown.
I’d rather have our young core of Evans, Landry, Casspi, Greene, (possibly) Thompson, (remotely possibly) Hawes, and a lottery pick than thier young core of Wallace, Diaw, Felton, Thomas, Augustin, Chandler and a mid-round reach (Felton and Augustin are FA’s btw).
"We believe in nothing, Lebowski. Nothing. And tomorrow we come back and we cut off your chonson..."
by Olberdingleberry on Apr 28, 2010 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions
The Musselman/Theus/Natt
troika definitely stunted the restructure, but their individual implosions at least kind of expedited said restructure. I guess my masochistic feeling is that as long as things are going to be bad they might as well be God awful. Better to live through the Theus experiment when the roster’s a shambles vs. congruent to Evans’ rookie season.
Definitely with ya on this part.
It worked out, and sometimes luck is better than being good.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Augustin is not a FA.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
My Bad....It's Thomas who's a Restricted FA in 2010!
Feel free to Peach-Slap me……
"We believe in nothing, Lebowski. Nothing. And tomorrow we come back and we cut off your chonson..."
by Olberdingleberry on Apr 28, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
That's quite all right.
You keep your Peaches to yourself, okay?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Good grief
If you’re even going to try to make this argument, go with Scott Brooks, Ailene.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Apr 28, 2010 12:14 PM PDT reply actions 7 recs
Levity is the soul of wit.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
And I am half-leavened
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Apr 28, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would have liked us to have given Scotty Brooks a shot.
I vaguely remember they were considering him at one point. Or was that under theus? It’s hard to recall painful memories.
My recollection
Brooks was on Musselman’s staff, and was considered. The Kings hired Theus, and Brooks went to Seattle(?) to assist under Carlesimo. Carlesimo was jettisoned after getting off to a horrid start last year, Brooks turned the Thunder around (the first thing he did was move Durant from the 2 to the 3), and the rest is what it is.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Gee
You mean playing a guy where his matchup difficulties are a problem on offense makes the team better? Shocking.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I think that may have been a situation of searching out "the expert from afar."
Sometimes we don’t appreciate what we have. That may have been the situation for the Kings, not appreciating Scott Brooks, because he was just an assistant coach already on staff. There is a tendency to elevate people that are hired “from afar.”
According to Robert Ringer, author of Winning Through Intimidation and other books, “people are usually more impressed with someone from a distant city than they are with an expert who might be readily available to them right in their own town.”
To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.
I just logged in to say the same dam thing
Yeah she should have mentioned Brooks. He would have been a better person to take a chance on over Musselman…But we also need to remember thaty Brooks has Durant, Green, and Westbrook – three young studs…
Ailene Voisin is wack and hearts Rubio
There is an intriguing counterfactual
What if we had hired Brown (or better, retained Adleman), traded Brad for an interior presence, and tried to make a run with the Artest/Bonzi double post threats. Would have had a couple interesting playoff runs, but probably would never had sniffed contention.
Luckily, though, Bonzi’s agent was a fool, and we’re finally in a full rebuild.
If we are after a coach who knows how to win
let’s hire Nellie.
Otherwise, CRAP needs to keep its TRAP shut.
PW is our coach, and I think he’s the right guy to teach this young team.
Once our talent matures, let’s see where we are then and see if a change is necessary. Otherwise… Shh. Zip it.
(BTW, in other news that is totally unrelated to anything, my dad can kick your dad’s butt. Oh yeah? Yeah. Oh yeah? Yeah. Oh yeah?) — I can work for the Bee.
Tanking? I don't know what you're talking about, tanking. I'm just losing more efficiently.
by elfboy_ on Apr 28, 2010 12:58 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I HATE LARRY BROWN.
I HATE LARRY BROWN. I HATE LARRY BROWN. That is all.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Apr 28, 2010 1:20 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
With the 6th pick of the 2010 NBA Draft, the Sacramanto Kings select -
Larry Brown, North Carolina.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Apr 28, 2010 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd Rec'd
That’s one for each “I HATE LARRY BROWN”
"he looks like he is going to take a bite out of a huge invisible sandwich..." - wallywagon11
Brown....
would have kept the Kings in the perpetual state of mid-level exemption hell. Sure he’s a good coach but with today’s turn and burn approach to coaches, he would already be on to his next gig. Theus and Muss did us a favor. They forced the team from mediocrity to painfully awful which is what needed to happen.
The “new” Kings approach is to follow the “Portland/Oklahoma” model of sucking badly to get better draft picks. Now, I don’t want to call total shenanigans on Westphal and co. but this season was thrown away for a reason. There is a reason that Nocioni was removed from the starting line-up. There was a reason that the Kings, not Kevin Martin, chose to go the surgery route. That damn ball popping thing was just pure bad luck….I assume. This season was about landing another top draft pick so the team can rebuild with high level talent through the draft.
The Maloofs should be applauded on this one. Brown may have been their choice but more importantly, Geoff Petrie was/is the guy who makes the real decisions. As a 49ers fan, I have seen this same state of mediocrity but the man at the helm has changed repeatedly- always someone new with a new idea. Hats off to the Maloofs for understanding that the true genius of this organization is Petrie and although he got them into this current situation, he is also the man who will pull them back to a place of prominence. This isn’t a “In Petrie We Trust” message, this is a fact. Petrie would not have drafted Hasheem Thabeet or James Harden and he didn’t draft Ricky Rubio, Johnny Flynn, Stephen Curry or DeMar DeRozan. He won’t draft this years bust picks either. Petrie will draft a valuable member to a young and growing team that fits with the team and community because he is a great talent evaluator.
Sometimes the road to salvation runs through the murky shit pile of the Eric Musselman’s and Reggie Theus’ of the world. For me, these guys are described in Dante’s 8th level of hell. They are “fraud” incarnate. The seducers and flatterers that bring promise of riches but nothing to back their empty promise.
The easy road- you know, the one where Larry Brown was standing there with his thumb out looking for a ride, was really the fools gold. Look to Dante once again and his fourth circle of hell, reserved for the avarice who “hoard possessions” and the prodigal who squander said possessions. Larry Brown is the consummate confidence man who takes your money with his limitless greatness only to squander his own potential and leave you holding an empty bag that was once filled with cash and quality players. He is a guy who get’s you to buy what he is selling, to trade your assets to match his scheme, and then leaves you with a hodge podge of unique talent that only he could lead.
Yes, Larry Brown is the one second from the left with the really big bag of cash and the bad hip.
I point to Danté because to reach “paradise” you must travel through all the stages of hell and basically get shat out. Larry Brown, being in the 4th stage of hell, would have only prolonged the misery of us poor Kings fans. By skipping to the 8th circle of hell, the Kings are closer to the other side. Closer to paradise- not the playoffs but a championship. Sure Larry could have brought in “his guys”- Iverson or Rasheed Wallace to stem the tide of despair and fight for that last playoff spot but in the end, we would have got no closer to a championship and, when he left with 2 years and 14 million left on his contract, the Maloofs would be 14 million poorer with no Evans, JT, Hawes, Landry, Casspi and no Geoff Petrie. The Kings may still be a LONG way from a contender but they are a whole hell of a lot closer than if Larry Brown was running the show and there is no way that GP would have stuck around to clean this mess up.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
by jjham15 on Apr 28, 2010 1:29 PM PDT reply actions 9 recs
a big reke from me.
I wonder how the bobcats will fair in the coming years.
So this is a long winded way of saying
That no matter what coach was available two years ago (let’s say Phil Jackson, Rick Adelman, Jerry Sloan, Gregg Popovich), the team would be better off having shitted up their franchise with two horrible coaches and now having Paul Westphal in place? Because, lord knows we probably wouldn’t have drafted Tyreke Evans if any of those guys had been available and been hired.
Now I’m not saying it was a wrong to pass on Larry Brown, but I’m not convinced that he would have this franchise in salary cap hell, with a borderline playoff team. If he had been hired with the express understanding that he was taking over a team dedicated to rebuilding, and he would have no input in player personnel decisions – and then he subsequently didn’t go along with the program – then you fire his ass, or let him resign. We had to fire two other coaches anyways, so what would have really been lost?
At worst, you’ve put a guy in position to teach your existing talent how to play some freaking defense. As it turns out, we had to start completely from scratch with PW.
I’m just greatly amused that the biggest argument against hiring Larry Brown is that he would have been too good of a coach for what we needed at the time. Sorry, but that sounds like a bass-ackwards philosophy to me.
The guy expressed an interest, at least grant him a freaking interview.
I've got squirrels in my pants!
by otis29 on Apr 28, 2010 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because, lord knows we probably wouldn’t have drafted Tyreke Evans if any of those guys had been available and been hired.
Exactly!
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
So then it follows
Was PW a bad hire? What if we end up with the #6 pick, when we could have had a top-3 pick by keeping Kenny Natt in tow?
Why are we so afraid of successful people?
I've got squirrels in my pants!
I'm not afraif of success.
It’s Larry Brown and his baggage/attitude/crap that he leaves behind. I want no part of him. Never did. Never will under any circumstance or any how.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
afraif
I don't see what's wrong with giving Bobby a little experience before he starts to practise law.
Mwahahaha
Good catch swoosh.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
The guy expressed an interest, at least grant him a freaking interview.
That’s okay. The Kings were better off in the long run. Unless you think firing Geoff Petrie to make Larry Brown happy is worth it.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Are you implying that's the only logical conclusion to a Larry Brown hire?
That’s ridiculous Pookey.
I've got squirrels in my pants!
Absolutely that's what I'm implying.
That’s the only way Larry Brown can function.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Agreed. Larry Brown needs to be alpha dog
and he’ll bitch until he gets his way. That is the Larry Brown way.
Tanking? I don't know what you're talking about, tanking. I'm just losing more efficiently.
Yup yup.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I think you missed my point.
The outcome of the last two or three years was irrelevant. The Kings did not have the talent to compete at the highest level. Maybe they could have won a few more games but every single one of those games would have come at the cost of future draft places. I personally believe that Petrie has made the most out of his last handful of picks but I also believe that he would not have ever stayed around for the Larry Brown era.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
Exactly.
Talent wins in this league. With or without Larry Brown coaching.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
No, I don't think I missed your point
And I agree, if hiring Larry Brown means losing Petrie, then it’s really a no-brainer. I have a tough time believing that would be the case, but YMMV.
If just an interview of Larry Brown meant that Geoff Petrie would have walked, then I’d say Geoff Petrie’s got some issues.
What I don’t understand is why we hired Paul Westphal? If Kenny Natt could have gotten us another 17 win season and a better shot at Wall/Turner/Favors – wouldn’t that be preferable?
I've got squirrels in my pants!
You have a tough time believing that's the case?
Exhibit A: Larry Brown & Detroit.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Every situation is different Pookey
Larry Brown can only do what Larry Brown is allowed to do.
And I’m still not saying you hire the guy, I’m just saying the guy’s got a pretty damn good track record of success. To shy away from that because your scared of his ego (in the NBA of all places) strikes me as pretty funny.
I've got squirrels in my pants!
Oh no I agree with that.
You don’t shy away from someone with success. (Cough Paul Westphal Cough.) You also don’t hire someone who will push for more power and trade away all your players the day he doesn’t like them (usually the first day of training camp).
Is Larry Brown good? Yeah sure he is. One of the best coaches of all time. Is he worth the trouble for the Kings and their particular situation? Never Otis.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Westphal-
I think that Petrie realized that with a top pick, the Kings needed someone with experience to teach these guys up. Would Natt have been able to balance the Evans/Martin situation? He probably would have died trying where Westphal evaluated the situation and helped make the tough call. What I like about Westphal is that he is both a guy who has won and a guy who has developed young players. I like a three year adventure with a guy like Westphal, he brings stability by establishing a system and with the staff surrounding him, there has got to be at least one of these guys who can take over if he runs amuck or decides not to re-up after his contract is up.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
Do you think we won more games with Westphal than we would have with Natt?
This is still a very talent-deprived roster. I wonder if the hiring of Westphal might end up costing us a very good player in the draft?
I’m in agreement with your analysis of the Westphal hire, by the way. I’m just still trying to wrap my brain around the idea that the Theus and Natt hires were more beneficial to the team than hiring a really good coach at the time would have been. Theoretically, you think you’d want to maintain that philosophy until you’ve got a pretty talented young base to build around (a la OKC after Durant/Green/Westbrook/Harden).
I've got squirrels in my pants!
We should hire PJ Carlesimo
Really jump start the rebuild
Don't say stupid shit. You won’t be perceived as stupid. - pookeyguru
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 28, 2010 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think that Westphal came in knowing the score.
And by knowing the score, I think Westphal held back the reigns. This team could have easily won 5 or 6 more games (conservatively) but those wins would have cost the team big time down the road. Westphal has bought in 100%. That means our Kings were busy losing while developing players like Tyreke Evans, Donté Greene, Omri Casspi, Jason Thompson and John Brockman instead of trying to win with Noc, Udoka, Martin. I’m not saying this whole season was a tank job, I’m saying that I believe that Westphal and the Kings brass had an understanding. That understanding was that this team was to fight the good fight but with young, inexperienced players, even if that meant losing games that could have been won.
As a fan, I have no issue with this idea if it is indeed the Kings thinking. I got to see good basketball. I got to see a rookie of the year and 4 or 5 other young players mature within a system without having to lose by 20 something every night. And, most importantly, I get to see my team improve through the draft with another top tier draft pick.
To get to a Westphal hire, this team had to go through the last two losing seasons. If they would have brought in a Westphal in the beginning, knowing full well that these seasons were about rebuilding (or losing as it may be, hiring Westphal and then winning would have been counter productive) then Westphal, like any other coach would have been run out of town. Now we have something to build on with 2 top 6 picks and a coach/system in place.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
I disagree with this to a point.
I think that Paul Westphal always tried to win games. It’s just that he was trying to win games with young players, and it’s difficult to do that. The organization had to lay a foundation with young talent, and the only real way to do that was to go out there and let them play. At the same time, if players aren’t playing because of their own merits, it’s not really worth it.
The Hawks took years to “develop” their young players, and they’ve peaked as a 2nd round team (if that).
I do think you’re otherwise correct though. Westphal believed that the best solution was to bring in the young players, let the remaining veterans fight for minutes (this is where Cisco being hurt was good for the player development), and let the chips fall where they may.
So I agree with you about the result, but not the actual direction this team took to get there JJ.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
The only real evidence I have is the Kings dealings with Nocioni.
For the most part, the Kings didn’t really have veterans. The one guy they did have that could have and did have a major role was Noc and that went away around game 30. I was on the Casspi band wagon like a few others around here so I can see why the Kings/Westphal went the way they did. That doesn’t excuse the fact that the Kings began losing when Noc was removed from the line-up and they chose to stay the course instead of returning him to the line-up. By the end of the season, Noc became the Beno Udrih circa 2009 for the Kings when it didn’t really have to go that way.
I agree that the best course of action this season was to let young players like Donté and Omri play the majority of the minutes at the three but that is because I wanted this team to lose a whole lot more games than it won. I don’t think this makes me a bad fan, I just believe that the Kings have a lack of talent and one of the main ways to add talent is through the draft and specifically the lottery. If the Kings had a blow up season where JT and Spencer took what seemed to be the logical step and became legit NBA starters then I would have loved to have seen this team compete for a playoff spot. The fact is, JT got off to a tremendous start and Spencer was horrible. By the time Hawes got his head out of his ass, Thompson went in the tank. By the all-star break, it was apparent that the Kings might have A starter out of the Hawes/Thompson combo but certainly not two.
Add to this the Martin and Cisco injuries and this season was almost over before it began. I agree that all things happened for the best this season and I also think that Westphal was the right guy to captain this ship. If Cisco and Martin stay healthy, Hawes and Thompson both come to play and we still got the production out of players like Evans, Casspi and Beno, this season would have been a whole hell of a lot different.
When push came to shove, this season really made its turn around January 1st when both Cisco and Martin were injured and JT went in the tank. From this point on, I have a very tough time believing that Westphal, Petrie or the Maloofs set winning as a priority. This season again became about grooming young players and improving their draft position while promoting the shit out of Tyreke Evans.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
Udrih, Udoka, May, Garcia aren't veterans?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Ok, I'll clarify.
Udrih- a starter and only real option for most of the season.
Udoka- Signed a an unrestricted free agent after the season had began. A role player who played sparingly.
Garcia- Injured and never right the entire season. Also, locked up long term so he is part of the puzzle no matter what.
Sean May- Out of shape feel good story. May never had the stamina or overall game to really garner any real minutes. Good teammate, skilled, but a 11-13 man on a roster- think poor man’s Funderburke.
These players(except Beno) are not the type that challenge for big minutes or improve your team over what Westphal was already throwing out there. Nocioni was and is a player that can play in this league for many teams and could even start on a few. Even when Casspi was playing well, Noc was still a better all around player due to his experience.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
I don;t think there was any real chance at bringing veterans in either.
That was part of the issue. Why bring a “veteran” in who doesn’t A) want to be here or B) if he does overpay him while risking flexibility?
I just don’t see the veteran thing being an issue. And there was no way that keeping Miller or Salmons was a good idea either.
I guess I just don’t agree on this. To me the veterans thing had as much to do with timing as much as choice.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Do they make a picture book version of Dante's Inferno?
"We believe in nothing, Lebowski. Nothing. And tomorrow we come back and we cut off your chonson..."
by Olberdingleberry on Apr 28, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes-
And it’s spectacular.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
actually there was a kid's cartoon based on donte's inferno too
Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?
by wallywagon11 on Apr 28, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Now you tell me........
you mean instead of wasting painful hours going verse by verse through that thing in College, I could have just hung out in my dorm room getting stoned, knockin back 40’s and watching a cartoon?!……Aw Shit!
"We believe in nothing, Lebowski. Nothing. And tomorrow we come back and we cut off your chonson..."
by Olberdingleberry on Apr 28, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
You could have bought the audio version on Itunes also.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
Does this mean one day
I’ll get to hear it on American Idol? Condensed into 90 seconds? Because I have no attention… ooh, shiny wallpaper.
Tanking? I don't know what you're talking about, tanking. I'm just losing more efficiently.
Dude..they did not have iTunes when some of us were in college, hell the internet was just becoming popular
We had cliff notes and lots of 1.25 Rubicon pale ale in the pub. Yes Sac State served $1.25 rubicon pale ales so you could drink between classes and pass out in the quad looking at pretty girls while being attacked by mutant squirrels.
"If my aunt had a set of nuts, she'd be my uncle"
When I was in high school, there was no internet...I don't think.
I just happened to go back to college at age 30 when the information age had taken a giant leap so I understand your position. ITunes definitely came in handy for my commute from Roseville to Davis (yes, Davis grad). I was able to bust through reading assignments on the drive there and back.
The Sacramento Convergence concept offers Sacramento, the Central Valley, and the State a solution to feasibly construct a new multi-use Entertainment and Sports Complex.
Davis is a GREAT school, that explains the well written posts!
Congrats on going back to college later in life, few people have the ability or desire to do that! when I say ability I refer more to their situation than intellectual ability.
"If my aunt had a set of nuts, she'd be my uncle"
wow, very well written!!
I feel like going to church and listening to a good sermon!
"If my aunt had a set of nuts, she'd be my uncle"
Reke'd
For a stellar literary reference. Well put JJ…
"he looks like he is going to take a bite out of a huge invisible sandwich..." - wallywagon11
I hate her but Voisin gets a +1
Brown >>> ((Musselman + Theus) x 1000)
Now, the current Kings organization would likely have stage 3 cancer right now hiring Brown, but her main argument is correct, Brown is a much better coach than the guys the Kings did decide to hire.
I have to strongly disagree with TZ
You can use a chainsaw to slice an onions if you are making Salsa.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
At least the chainsaw would have made salsa.
No salsa was made from the two plastic sporks they decided to hire.
there's a food metaphor
for just about anything isn’t there
by silverace99 on Apr 29, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Mmmmmm.....
Salsa
"he looks like he is going to take a bite out of a huge invisible sandwich..." - wallywagon11
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