Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

Where's the Map, Losing has me Disoriented. Year 2

Last summer I wrote a FanPost called Where's the Map, Losing has me Disoriented.  In it I asked and researched three basic questions:

What happens the season after a league worst showing? (It was atypical to be the worst team twice in a row)
Is improvement to be expected, and if so how much?  (Improvement was to be expected, about 9-10 games)
How long will it take to win again? (It takes 4-5 years to win again)

This year I am following up in the same fashion with these three questions:

What typically happens the 2nd season after having the worst record in the NBA?
How much improvement is to be expected?
What did the teams that made the most dramatic improvement from year 1 to year 2 do to improve?

Star-divide

The methods I used to figure out these questions are just an extension of the averaging I used last year.  No fancy stats, just letting the record speak for itself and adding one more year of information to the chart I used last year.

Question #1- What typically happens the 2nd season after having the worst record in the NBA?

The good news is that the second season after a league worst finish continues to show improvement.  The bad news is that on average that improvement is slowed down considerably.

Question #2- How much improvement is to be expected?

There are two ways to look at this, the optimistic way and the pessimistic way.  The pessimistic way of viewing the amount of improvement that can be expected is to just look at the change in record from year 1 to year 2.  The average change in record from year 1 to year 2 after a league worst finish is 5.916 games of improvement which would put the Kings at about 31-51 for the 2010-2011 season.

The optimistic way of viewing the amount of improvement is to look at total improvement since our worst in league starting point.  The average change in record from league worst to year 2 can be figured out by adding 9.375 (average increase from league worst record to year 1) to 5.916 (average increase from year 1 to year 2) to get 15.291 which would put the Kings at about 32-50.

Either way, assuming the Kings are going to have an average climb back to winning we are going to have to remain patient for a few more years.

Question #3- What did the teams that made the most dramatic improvement from year 1 to year 2 do to improve?

To answer this question I looked at my chart and focused on the teams that made a 10 game or better improvement.  Those teams (I will identify them by the league worst year and team name because some of these teams are repeat offenders) were 1984-85 Pacers, 1985-86 Knicks, 1989-90 Nets, 1990-91 Nuggets, 1992-93 Mavericks.

1984-85 Pacers

First and foremost they had a coaching change before year 2 began from George Irving with a career .345 winning percentage to Jack Ramsey a 1992 Hall of Fame inductee.  Secondly, they added Chuck Person (a rookie) and John Long (draft day trade) who became their leading scorers.  Chuck Person also tied for the lead in rebounding.

1985-86 Knicks

The Knicks also made a coaching change before year 2 began.  In year 1 they had Hubie Brown and Bob Hill, but for year 2 they hired Rick Pitino.  Patrick Ewing played all 82 games in year 2 vs just 63 games in year 1.  Added Rookie Mark Jackson who lead team in assists (10.6 per game).  New starter Sidney Green acquired at the beginning of the season for a second round draft pick.

1989-90 Nets

The Nets kept the same coach they had for their league worst season.  They didn't acquire any new starters, however Drazen Petrovic went from bench player to starting all 82 games and leading the team in scoring with the exit of Reggie Theus who had been the Nets' leading scorer the year before.  They drafted Kenny Anderson, who had an unremarkable rookie year.


1990-91 Nuggets

The Nuggets changed coaches from Paul Westhead to Dan Issel.  Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf made the jump from the bench to become the Nuggets leading scorer.  LaPhonso Ellis started all 82 games as a rookie and provided good numbers.  Dikembe Mutombo scored less in year 2 but increased his rebounding, mostly through more defensive rebounding, and increased his blocked shots.  The Nuggets were able to both increase their offensive rating (+3.9) and decrease their defensive rating (-2.3).

1992-93 Mavericks

The Mavericks changed coaches from Quinn Buckner (one and done NBA coaching career) to Dick Motta the franchises first coach, who took a break from Dallas to coach in Sacramento for a few years.  Year 1 for the 1992-93 Mavericks was also the worst record in the league year for the 1993-94 Mavericks, which no doubt made a Year 1 to Year 2 leap look more impressive than it really was.  However, this was the year of the vaunted Tripple J -Jim Jackson, Jamal Mashburn, and Jason Kidd.  Jackson led in scoring (25.7) with Mashburn (24.1) closely on his heals, though Jackson missed 30 games and Mashburn only missed two.  Jason Kidd was in his rookie year and was showing alot of promise as well as good numbers.

Summary of Teams That Made a Large Leap from Year 1 to Year 2

Most of these teams had a coaching change, which no doubt brought in a new philiosophy and helped account for the larger than average growth they exhibited.  Every team except for the Nets had very productive rookies.  The Nets and Nuggets developed players from their own benches.  The Pacers added through trade and the Mavericks developed from the draft.

Besides having new coaches and drafting good players there doesn't seem to be a common thread that links the teams who out performed the average rate of winning.  Luckily, the Kings have a high draft pick (no worse than number 6), some young talent on the bench that might develop into starter material (Greene, Casspi), as well as cap space to play around with.  Maybe we can pick up our rebuild and out perform the average next year and do better than 32-50.  What do you think?

For those who are interested in the chart I used to base my observations on:

Bbal_20improvement2_medium

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

Comment 118 comments  |  17 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Very interesting and well-written post

Rec’d

"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.

by AnotherStupidSN on May 7, 2010 1:47 PM PDT reply actions  

Let me be the third to rec

The NBA: "Where 27 free throws happens"

by lodisacfan on May 7, 2010 2:16 PM PDT reply actions  

one thing of note

we almost forget that as bad as the kings were in previous years they weren’t the worse even back in the 80s

by Madzillagd on May 7, 2010 2:45 PM PDT reply actions  

Yep

I always thought we were just good enough to avoid getting dramatically better. As long as we keep winning more games than the previous year, I think I will be happy with this rebuild. Within reason, if 10 years from now we have only won 40 games but improved every year, I won’t be thrilled.

by jasonrp on May 7, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well done. Well researched. Rec'd

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 8, 2010 8:44 AM PDT reply actions  

I enjoyed the retrospective and the relation to today's Kings

rec’d. I look forward to more from you, thanks for the info.

As for your question: I expect the Kings to improve more than 7 games next season. The addition of more talent in the form of a high draft pick (even one that may be a project and contribute erratically) will be complmented by a squad that has matured together all of last year. I don’t know if the Kings will start the season as sharply but I don’t expect that they will fall off as dramatically either. What has to be thrown into this expectation is something that can’t be predicted: Injuries. Who, when, how severe all will strongly influence the record. Along with the remarkable improvement from 23 wins last season to 50 wins this season for the OKC Thunder is their luck in staying healthy. Durability – the non tracked important stat of all teams and players.

by betweentheeyes on May 8, 2010 10:27 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Following up on your comment about OKC...

If there is a map to follow, to keep the Kings oriented, it would be the OKC Thunder, who have set the bar.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 8, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

yes and no

you can’t discount the additional good fortune of a rapid influx of talent: 4 top-5 picks in three seasons.

by betweentheeyes on May 8, 2010 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, true. But there is still a lot to be learned.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 8, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

As in what?

"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims

by edm7 on May 8, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

How they did it.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 8, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

How did they do it?

I’m missing the point a bit

"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims

by edm7 on May 8, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

They did it by losing

And trading Ray Allen.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 8, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

And you can make a big deal out of the top 5 picks all you want

But unless Jeff Green becomes that quintessential core piece (doesn’t seem that way to me) and James Harden does a Ben Gordon impression over his rookie contract, I’m not sure that having those 4 top 5 picks means much.

Players contribute in a variety of ways. Some players get better as they get older; some get worse. It’s hard to say which is which at the time of the draft.

I do think the kind of money OKC spent in getting their other picks, and trading away veterans 2 years running at the deadline, did help them amass that core of young talent with the possibility of adding a piece or two through the draft, free agency and a trade.

This is what shouldn’t be debated: OKC got started on the rebuilding about a year before the Kings did, and when you factor in the draft picks OKC received, it’s probably more like 2 years. Durant changed everything for them. One player makes the difference. Not 4 top 5 picks. Just ask Chicago.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 8, 2010 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I know how OKC did it

I’m just having trouble understanding SD’s point. So we should look at the Thunder and learn from how they did it. To call on my inner Pop, “no kidding!”

At the same time, you can’t judge the Kings success by just looking at OKC because they’ve set the bar very high. Yes, it’s important to look at OKC and Portland to get a rough idea of how it could be done, but every situation is different so we should judge the Kings based what they’re doing, not what others did.

"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims

by edm7 on May 8, 2010 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree.

The Kings have to do it their way. Not others.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 8, 2010 11:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

5 top picks doesn't hurt

I think on another team Jeff Green would still be coming in off the bench. My guess as to the major reasons why OKC improved so unexpectedly would be in this order; Durant, Westbrook, Scott Brooks. If I’m close to being right then this isn’t a process that can be easily copied.

Durant is turning in to almost a generational player, Westbrook is maturing into a player who will be a multi year All Star guard and Brooks is a young coach who came into training camp preaching defense and his young team bought into his message.

GM Sam Presti has done an excellent job putting together the young roster, letting them develop together and at least as of today has resisted the call of adding a big name veteran instead relying almost exclusively on internal development.

I don’t know if it was jasonrp (nice post by the way) or someone else but someone said that the average improvement in wins by the worst team was 10 wins. If that’s the case then the Kings fell a little short but the absence of Kevin Martin had to have an effect on our total number of wins this season. The other thing that I think kept the Kings from winning at least 10 more games is that JT and Spencer Hawes did not show the type of improvement which was expected of them.

The Kings are pursuing the draft based rebuilding model and if we aren’t going to acquire a big name player via trade or free agency (which TZ has advocated for) then the next thing we need is our “Westbrook” type of player in this draft. I don’t mean that we need to draft another tweener pg but rather a highly effective draft pick whose play will be complimentary with ’Reke’s and who ultimately will play at an All Star level.

"I make love to pressure" - Stephen Jackson

by Bluejohn on May 8, 2010 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I agree with most of what you say BJ except this:
letting them develop together and at least as of today has resisted the call of adding a big name veteran instead relying almost exclusively on internal development.

Except for the Tyson Chandler thing that got nixed, this is pretty much true. I bet OKC will try again during the draft and/or summer to get another big.

They won’t have cap room in 2011 & beyond.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 8, 2010 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I love RW's game as much as the next guy

But he does have some serious holes in his game(I’d say even more than Tyreke does) and he’s quickly becoming one of the more overrated players in the league due to the OKC success which imo falls directly on Durant’s shoulders. That guy is the 2nd best player in the league after LeBron, period.

by Smills9133 on May 9, 2010 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd take Dwight over Durant.

Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".

by Aykis16 on May 11, 2010 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Every day of the week and all day on Sunday.

And, umm, I love Durant.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 11, 2010 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sunday isn't a day of the week?

I have my moments.
Stop hating chen! Mushroom Mushroom!

by chenp22 on May 11, 2010 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'm with you, Smills.

I’ll take Durant over Dwight.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 11, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

You guys are crazy.

Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".

by Aykis16 on May 12, 2010 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe, but I don't think so.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 12, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think so.

And I would have taken Durant over Oden on draft day. (Something that got me the label of crazy.)

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

People just don't realize how GOOD Dwight is sometimes.

His averages may not be gaudy, but Dwight’s effect goes well beyond averages or point totals. Far FAR FAR FAR beyond.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

You're right.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 12, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Plus

THE DUDE’S ONLY GONNA BE 25 NEXT YEAR!!!!

That in itself is ridiculous.

Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".

by Aykis16 on May 12, 2010 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

No what's ridiculous is that he led the league in FG%

Rebounding and Blocked shots. And it wasn’t really close in either category.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

The man is a beast of a beast.

Not superman but super-beast.

Umm... I thought we were officially referring to Voison as the Chick Replacing Amick at the Paper? or CRAP, for short.

by sac_faithful on May 12, 2010 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

No argument there.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 12, 2010 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

But he did that while not even being 25! Has anyone checked his ID?

Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".

by Aykis16 on May 12, 2010 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

And how old is Durant?

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 12, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's 21. Durant is an amazing player and there is no doubt about that.

But Dwight Howard is better offensively than Durant is defensively. And that matters a great deal to me.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm a big fan of Durantula

but I’d go with Superman as well. Durant is a superstar and could be the number 1 guy on a championship team, no doubt, but to be honest, I still see him as a better, less physical Melo.

He’s an exceptional scorer with improving rebounding and defense but he still needs to show more IMHO to put him ahead of the LeBron, Wade, Kobe, and Howard

"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims

by edm7 on May 12, 2010 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ahead or in the same level*

"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims

by edm7 on May 12, 2010 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well said.

But I do think OKC has better talent around Durant than Melo too. That plays a big part.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yep

No doubt about that

"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims

by edm7 on May 12, 2010 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

They are both great players.

I expect Durant to get even better with his age.

For what Howard does on the defensive end with his rebounds, there is no one better. And his size advantage is obvious.

If I were a coach and had to decide which player to have on my team, I would chose Durant

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 12, 2010 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well if Orlando wins a title or two (and this is very possible IMO)

That’s quite the ways to catch up to Dwight Howard.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Getting the cart before the horse...

Counting your chickens before they hatch…and other futuristic expectations. And it takes a team to win a championship, last time I checked: )

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 12, 2010 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Which Orlando has.

And OKC does not have nearly the team Orlando does.

Talking about hypotheticals is what opened this can of worms up to begin with. Don’t blame me for using one. And especially since Orlando IS a championship contender, and OKC is nowhere near being one.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just said I would take Durant over Howard.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 12, 2010 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes I know.

But that’s not what I was responding to.

You had another comment below that too.

I think I’m going to bow out of this conversation. I see it going nowhere because we disagree (which is not the problem).

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right. We disagree.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 12, 2010 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Call me crazy too

Durant – but not by a lot, I might lose sleep.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on May 13, 2010 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

They are both amazing players.

Durant has me with his age, only second year as a pro, 30.1 ppg and 7.1 rpg. He is not as big as Howard, but he is 6’9’" 230. Anyone who watched him shoot at the All-Star HORSE competition knows that the man can shoot.

Stats here

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 13, 2010 8:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's Durant's 3rd year this past year

Going into his 4th year.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 13, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I stand corrected.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 13, 2010 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well

It seems like you are knocking down this argument: ‘If you have 4 top 5 picks then you will automatically be good.’ But no one is making that argument.

The point is, if you want to rebuild, you’d better do it for real, and take the chances that come along with top picks …even if 2 of the 4 picks end up being average starters, and only 2 become all-stars. My claim is this: High picks, and a few of them, closely clustered, are necessary for rebuilding, but not sufficient.

by DustyG on May 12, 2010 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

The Kings aren't rebuilding for real?

What’s your belief on “real” rebuilding? Winning 50 games with young players?

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not my point at all...

This was my point:

High picks, and a few of them, closely clustered, are necessary for rebuilding, but not sufficient.

In answer to your question, I think the Kings did not take the best/fastest path toward rebuilding in the three or four years prior to last season. Thus we just deferred the start of the ‘real’ rebuild to last season. But yes, the kings have begun the real rebuild; I think it’ll take 4 top 5 picks or the equivalent before we should add vets and be contenders, etc…and that’s if things go well…

by DustyG on May 12, 2010 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

What would have been the best path?

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well

By getting higher draft picks sooner…and not trying to stay mediocre for a few years before the actual rebuild began.

by DustyG on May 12, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

And how do you propose they could have done that?

Trading away Artest, Miller & Salmons away?

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well

Trading them away sooner. Or using Peja to get a draft pick rather than Artest. Or not signing Salmons. All of that would have been a good start to a better rebuild.

by DustyG on May 12, 2010 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Easy to say in 2010. Hindsight is 20/20.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well

I was saying it then, too. But you asked, and I told you.

by DustyG on May 12, 2010 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

I understand that.

But, I said they should rebuild too. They didn’t. I’m not trying to prove that either of us is right in your conclusions. I’m trying to get at that it’s not that simple, and judging this stuff in a vacuum is not an useful way to proceed. THAT’S MY POINT.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Playoffs mean money

Don’t see many teams blowing it up if they think they can make the playoffs.

That’s why it took so long to start the rebuild.

As fans, some of us value the championship over everything and thus when that window closed, we were calling for a blowup even while we were still capable of making the playoffs.

Don't say stupid shit. You won’t be perceived as stupid. - pookeyguru

by Kfan in Korea on May 21, 2010 1:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Essentially

Peja became Omri, Donté, and B-Jax’s expiring contract. That’s pretty good return.

Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".

by Aykis16 on May 12, 2010 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah if you throw in the 2 1/2 years of Ron-Ron sandwiched in there.

I’m not really sure it would have worked to rebuild in 2006. You had too many veteran guys like Miller & Bibby whom the Kings were making money off of (the Kings made a lot of money the first season Musselman coached).

In short, because of all the factors involved (the franchise was making money, players still in prime, Maloof’s taking more control of franchise at that time were the main issues at the time), rebuilding was never seen as a major possibility. The franchise didn’t understand why they should rebuild when they still had quality players.

I personally think it has worked out well if you take a long view of how things worked out. When Webber got his knee injury, it changed everything for this franchise. It created a series of dominoes for this team ever since. This year will be the first year that Webber’s contract has significantly impacted the Kings team in one way or the other.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

only season Muss coached (is what I should have said)^

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am just saying that the Thunder has accomplished an amazing amount

in a short period of time. They are worth looking at as a role model for success.

Yes, it’s important to look at OKC and Portland to get a rough idea of how it could be done, but every situation is different so we should judge the Kings based what they’re doing, not what others did.

I am not suggesting that the Kings try to follow them exactly, because every situation is different.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 9, 2010 3:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, but by saying it the way you did, you are suggesting emulation.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 9, 2010 3:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

(I'm not saying that's your intent. Obviously we know now it's not.)

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 9, 2010 3:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes.

But does the Blueprint call for DeMarcus Cousins or Derrick Favors? :D

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 9, 2010 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

The blueprint is the Lamont Cranston of the Sacramento Kings gameplan

now, look that one up – it is antique old skool.
What evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows…

by betweentheeyes on May 9, 2010 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Where does that Cousins comment come from?

Has Reke come out and said so somewhere? (I’d guess so)

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on May 11, 2010 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

He said something along the lines someone in his family said something about Cousins.

He also vaguely mentioned him once in one of his recent interviews post ROY.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 11, 2010 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Interviewed on Rise Guys

He said something like he has heard a lot about Cousins, but that was up to GP

by MustangMBS on May 12, 2010 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Makes sense to me. Cousins has been getting a lot of hype, and deservingly so.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, that was not my intention.

I was just wording it so it would fit the metaphor of this article. I was thinking more along the lines of studying and deconstructing the elements of the OKC Thunder success. It would make for an interesting FanPost.

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 9, 2010 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

You've gotta draft the right guys

The Clippers have tried to follow that ‘blueprint’ a number of times, had all the right picks – with no luck.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on May 11, 2010 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

So, what is the secret of the Thunder?

To be the best, you have to do your best. Otherwise, you are only second-rate.

by Slam_Dunk on May 11, 2010 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

'You've gotta draft the right guys'

and a SuperStar in Durant sure didn’t hurt. I have often said I think they missed last year though as Hardin is a role player IMO. But other than that . . .

Really though, all they need is a quality big man at this point to contend for years.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on May 11, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

I see Harden as a starter but not a star

and I think that is why they drafted him. He fits in well for position he does everything well (defend, pass, decision make, score, he is a good size, he is young and is the zag to Westbrook’s zig) but is not destined to be an All-Star. Glue guy. I think he was a solid choice and could be penciled in as the OKC 2-guard for 10 years.

by betweentheeyes on May 11, 2010 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly

They didn’t need to take Harden at 3 (he would have dropped to 5 or 6) but they couldn’t trade down & get what they want.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 11, 2010 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Harden is young

he will improve and become consistent (again, one of the most remarkable things about Tyreke – consistency)

by betweentheeyes on May 11, 2010 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree.

One of the things the Reke detractors don’t give him credit for.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 11, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well

No one has time to think about consistency when you’re having fun playing with other guys.

"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims

by edm7 on May 11, 2010 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

No doubt.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 11, 2010 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is no TC%

True Consistency %

Don't say stupid shit. You won’t be perceived as stupid. - pookeyguru

by Kfan in Korea on May 12, 2010 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Harden is young?

He looks 35.

Still, I don’t see a lot of areas he can improve on myself. Maybe be a slightly better shooter – but he’s a role player, and I think you’re aiming higher at #3 than that.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on May 13, 2010 12:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

James Harden born August 26, 1989

I checked his ID. This kid can’t even buy a beer. Are you kidding me? (end Napear voice over)

He is funny. He said he has to have a beard because he has a baby face. I like his game. There is a reason he was a consensus top 3 pick last draft.

by betweentheeyes on May 13, 2010 12:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

So you think OKC would have been better off having Tyreke?

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 13, 2010 12:41 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I have no idea. I do konw that they improved from 23 wins to 50 somehow

I think they are happy with Harden who is not as dynamic as Evans. Better? Evans wouldn’t have been better (nor nearly as good) that much I am sure of.

by betweentheeyes on May 13, 2010 12:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yup

I can’t see how OKC really improves much by having Tyreke needing the ball. Harden was picked too high at 3, but he was the right pick for them.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 13, 2010 2:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

OKC was in the unique position

of being able to draft for need, because they had so much talent already.

Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".

by Aykis16 on May 13, 2010 7:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nonsense

Their need was and IS a big man. They could have parlayed that #3 into one at the time.

Could they get a quality big in exchange for Harden now? I don’t see it.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on May 13, 2010 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

They didn't get any offers to trade from the #3 spot lttg.

That’s complete fantasy on your part bro.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 13, 2010 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why shouldn't we

emulate the Zombie Sonics or the Blazers?

by DustyG on May 12, 2010 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

To me

that’s just what a honest rebuilt looks like.

by DustyG on May 12, 2010 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

We don't have Ray Allen or Paul Allen?

Don't say stupid shit. You won’t be perceived as stupid. - pookeyguru

by Kfan in Korea on May 12, 2010 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

This says it all.

Every situation is different.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok

So how is what the zombie sonics and OKC different from normal rebuilding? Obviously we cant do exactly what they did, but we can emulate the process…right?

We dont have the same GM, so we can’t attempt to get 4 top 5 picks clustered in a few years?

I don’t get it. How do you think our way might be different from theirs?

by DustyG on May 12, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not likely to be emulated for several reasons.

One, the Kings didn’t get a top 5 pick for Ron Artest. (Who didn’t have that value, but whatever.) Two, I don’t think the Kings are going to take on 9 million of salary to just get 2 mid to low 20’s draft picks. Three, you’re counting James Harden in thatt 4 in tp 5 group. You can find guys like Harden much lower in the draft. The Kings have plenty of role players, and the Thunder needed a player like Harden very badly. Really, they could have slipped to 6 or 7 and gotten Harden. They would have been very happy with that.

The situation’s aren’t the same because the focus and approaches are very different. Petrie has never gone out and bought picks. The only time I can remember a first round pick the Kings have gotten from another team was Omri Casspi, and he was picked 23. I don’t wish to knock Harden because he doesn’t deserve it, but Omri has just a good a chance IMO to be as good as Harden. It would take a lot for Omri to get there, but the opportunity exists.

There’s a lot of talent on that OKC squad and it’s not all top 5 picks. I like Jeff Green (more than I did at draft time in 2007), but it’s not like he’s a landmark player. That team revolves around Durant and Westbrook.

You’re comparing apples to bananas here. It’s not the same thing if you’re asking me.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

But

you see the value of getting a few top-level picks in a rather tight cluster right? I think that’s what most people mean, myself included, when we point at OKC and Portland…methods of obtaining those picks being less important.

I dont care if they buy or trade for them, I just realize that they are necessary for rebuilding…

OKC and Portland didnt rebuild identically, but they did it similarly, right? I think our best option is to do it similar to them…to emulate that process.

by DustyG on May 12, 2010 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

methods of obtaining those picks being less important.

Yeah but the Maloof’s care. And Petrie cares. There’s more to it than just “obtaining” these picks. That’s what you, and your pick cohorts, don’t really realize. The cost of these picks, how useful is it to have 6 or 7 top 5 picks who are all really young.

For all the talk about the success that OKC & Portland has had, they haven’t made the 2nd round. I realize it’s early to talk about it with regards to both teams, but here’s the reality: Until they win a championship or come close, there are plenty of methods out there that can get you into the 1st round. Milwaukee got into the 1st round this past season: Should the Kings emulate Milwaukee? I don’t think so.

It took 3 bad to awful seasons for OKC to pick up those picks. It took Portland 3 awful seasons too. The Kings have had 2 low losing seasons. You don’t need to have a ton of top 5 picks on your roster. You need to have stars, and talents to anchor your team around.

The Kings are doing fine on the rebuilding phase. I’m not sure, and never really thought about it much until the end of last season, but trading away Bibby was tricky because there wasn’t anyone to replace him until Beno came along. Trading away Ron Artest came at the expense of winning games. Nobody likes to lose. The Kings organization didn’t want to lose a ton of games just to get top 5 picks. Losing is not a good thing for a franchise to endure long term. Look at Atlanta. They did that very thing you suggested Dusty, and it took them FIVE years to rebuild.

OKC & Portland rebuilt because A) they got lucky with young impact players in the draft several years back to back and B) they have had ownership groups willing to spend dollars to get as many young players as possible.

I don’t care how you spin it along the lines of “it’s not about the details”. It’s very much about the details because the details ARE HOW OKC & PORTLAND VERY much have succeeded (until now) in rebuilding. You can look at this in very simplistic terms if you wish, but the reality of what those teams went through was extremely and complex in reality.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Its gonna take us 5 years plus....

because we didnt rebuild in earnest from the get-go. You know why it’ll take that long? Because no matter how you get there…you need that talent…that cluster of top picks.

by DustyG on May 12, 2010 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

5 years to rebuild?

No way. It’s nearing the end of 5 years. (I’d say they started rebuilding in 2007.) And the Kings have received an infusion of talent. You can say the Kings didn’t get things for their players, but I’d argue differently. The Kings have stockpiled asset’s at multiple positions, and have attempted to rebuild while still winning. It’s difficult, but it’s better than losing games. How many 17-25 seasons do you want to endure to get top picks? Nevermind that the Kings have now done that 2 seasons running. That’s what really matters.

Teams are built off their best players, and the best players in the NBA generally have been drafted in the top 5. But Jeff Green and James Harden are two of the top 5 picks that OKC has. Neither guy is anything more than a bench player on a championship team. Both are quality players no doubt, but neither are high caliber studs. They’re talented role players helping Durant & Westbrook win games.

Portland has a high caliber group of players too, but most of their players have been drafted in the 20’s. Not in the top 5. It’s just that Portland’s best players are Oden. LMA and Roy (obviously not in that order). Roy wasn’t even taken in the top 5, and was traded for Telfair.

My point here is that there is more than one way to skin the cat. The Kings are rebuilding now. Whether or not they should have in 2006 is a debate you can have, but pointless. They didn’t. On the other hand, they didn’t mortgage their future like the Wiz did by signing players to big contracts who were never a championship level team.

Take a larger look, and you’ll notice the Kings have been rebuilding. They have since 2007. Spencer Hawes, Jason Thompson, Donte Greene, Jon Brockman, Omri Casspi, Tyreke Evans to name all the young players drafted or brought to the Kings before their rookie seasons.

Other than a couple of young players on this Kings team, I think the Kings have plenty of talented young players. They don’t need to emulate OKC & Portland other than to get high end All-star level talent. That’s what Sac really lacks. Tyreke Evans is 1 of those pieces. Hopefully this top 1st round pick provides that 2nd piece. It’s quite possible (or even probable perhaps) that another player currently on the roster becomes that 3rd best players. At that point it’s just finding out what players fit and work with each other.

The Kings are not that far away.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 12, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Harden and Green

Both very young players. Both very fundamentally sound. I don’t think they have found their games or potential yet, Harden in particular. Will they be All-Stars? I doubt it. I doubt it even more in OKC where their skills will be overshadowed by RW and Durant but perhpas enhanced in other ways that only winning can bring.
My point: At the least, Harden and Green are starters. You have to have stars, starters, bench players and role players to make a team. Not a collection of All-Stars. IMO, they are a great part of a superb (and lucky) rebuild. Throw in Ibaka (another potential starter and even possible All-Star or Near Star), Thefolosha – defensive specialist but is learning to hit his outside shots (who do you like better – Sabo or Batum? – pretty similiar though Batum is 3-4 years younger).
Building a team is different than rebuilding – more than semantics. OKC has rebuilt, now they are building. How many more pieces do they need?
The four top 5 picks are wonderful. Again, All of them are starters. ANy time you add a starter (core player) you win.

by betweentheeyes on May 13, 2010 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Boy bte - you like Harden!

I don’t think he is or ever should be a starter on a contending team, if so, he’s the weakest ‘role playing’ link.
  I just don’t see much upside in his game.

Talk to me about it again in a year or two.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on May 13, 2010 12:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

he was very impressive in colllege

and yes, it was just college. Very poised, smart and has a variety of ample skills (defends well, shoots well, passes well). It would be interesting to hear from the Kings draft-trust where they put Harden last year (they did work him out).
Btw, I am thinking about your tix. I think I can get better (though at a much larger cost) but it is not a sure thing. Sounds like you have a good deal there.

by betweentheeyes on May 13, 2010 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

They're very good seats - let me know.

One of the [redacted] games might be available as my wife thinks I’m going to mano a mano with some [redacted] fan sooner or later and one of our other partners isn’t interested in dealing with them either.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on May 13, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Still

a 3 pt specialist might be the ideal between Durant and Westbrook

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on May 13, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Rather have Harden than a 3pt specialist.

Harden can do more things than your typical 3pt specialist can.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 13, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

I take Batum myself.

But that’s me. Thabo has done a great job rescuing his career in OKC.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 13, 2010 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

the right situation can make a world of difference

Kevin Johnson for a great past example. This year, Tyreke, Collison, Curry, Taj Gibson and Jennings are examples of having the right team, Flynn the wrong one.

by betweentheeyes on May 13, 2010 12:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Agree on Flynn especially.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 13, 2010 2:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thabo reminds me of Doug Christie

except he can’t shoot as well and is probably not as athletic.

Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".

by Aykis16 on May 13, 2010 7:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

His ball handling/decision making isn't anywhere near DC13's in his prime.

Then again, DC13 took awhile to develop into the player he was with the Kings as well.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on May 13, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

But

I hear you point about it being complex.

by DustyG on May 12, 2010 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fun read

anything that references 1990s NBA has some way of magically sucking me in

Could some of you maybe use a condom once in a while?

by wallywagon11 on May 11, 2010 2:38 PM PDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Sactown Royalty, the best community of Sacramento Kings fans in the universe. That's not my opinion; it's scientific fact.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
A Learning Experience on Loyalty For Sacramento Via Golden State
Lionel_small
#HereWeStay
Small
Francisco Garcia Wallpaper/Illustration (UofL days)
Kings_sports_illustrated_small
Funny story
Small
As I sit here and watch the OKC Thunder come back against the Lakers
Waymantisdale-tz-150_small
the owners called down the thunder
Chief_petty_officer_small
Maturity in Sacramento Debacle
Small
Ryan Anderson to the Kings - Petrie's Gotta Give It A Thought
Chief_petty_officer_small
Open letter to the Maloofs
Small
Middle Ground on the Roster Situation

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Editor

Loofie_small Tom Ziller

Joe_kleine_small section214

Demarcus_thornton_small Aykis16

Associate Editor

Coachie_small rbiegler

Banana2_small Exhibit G