Does a Nocioni-Prince Pick Swap Make Financial Sense?
by Tom Ziller on Jun 16, 2010 10:43 AM PDT
in Commentary
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PrintA rumor the Kings might swap picks with Detroit while sending Andres Nocioni to Motown for Tayshaun Prince has been gaining steam, especially in light of all the reports Sacramento might be looking to trade down and pick up Greg Monroe or Hassan Whiteside.
Let's side aside the actual pick swap. There are questions as to whether Detroit will execute the trade if DeMarcus Cousins is off the board. Heck, there are questions as to whether Sacramento will execute the trade if DeMarcus Cousins is on the board. (Both those items can't be true; otherwise, there is no rumor here.) Let's assume for a second the Kings either have decided against Cousins or the Pistons are still open to moving up to No. 5 even if Cousins is gone.
Does the Nocioni-Prince swap make financial sense?
Prince makes $11.4 million next season, and then is a free agent. Nocioni makes $6.8 million next season and $6.6 million in 2011-12. So said trade would slice into the Kings' cap space this summer by about $4.6 million, but opens up an extra $6.6 million the following summer. The Kings would have about $15 million in cap space this summer after this trade. No one has any clue what the 2011-12 salary cap will look like, so there's little use estimating that.
If the Kings really are waiting for the summer of 2011 to make a big free agency move, this move would help. But don't forget that both Carl Landry and Spencer Hawes will be free agents that summer, and will cut into the cap space. The new collective bargaining agreement will likely cut into the cap space. But it will also likely make players cheaper. If the Kings want to roll the dice on the CBA, this trade makes sense. If the team is looking to make a splash this summer, it's best to be avoided.
The impact of Sacramento acquiring Prince on punny headline writers, however, cannot be measured.
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put aside
Right after everyone circlejerks about grammar, Ziller goes and incorrect-grammar-fy the front page. Simple mistake, or cunning ploy to usurp power from the G-214-16-triumvirate!
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
iashwash, you are the voice of reason - Holmdel
by iashwash on Jun 16, 2010 10:47 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
wow... pot calling the kettle.
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
iashwash, you are the voice of reason - Holmdel
Please change the title of this post to "A Prince fit to be a King?"
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jun 16, 2010 10:50 AM PDT reply actions 8 recs
"Heir Apparent: Prince to be a King?"
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jun 16, 2010 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
"Line of Succession: 'King me', says Prince"
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jun 16, 2010 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Prince leaving Palace for Greener Pastures?
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
by Aykis16 on Jun 16, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 7 recs
Nice
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jun 16, 2010 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Position specific: "Royal addition: A new Prince in the wings"
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jun 16, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions
"Price to Provide some Purple Rain"
…too much of a stretch?
There will be a SammyP wherever you go. But don't worry, it scared me at first too.
You know who Tayshaun would look good with?
The Blazers! Camby, Aldridge, Prince… thinnest frontline in history!
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
iashwash, you are the voice of reason - Holmdel
Batum
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
You're right, he would make a great 2-guard! Put Brandon at point, then boom-shack-a-lacka.
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
iashwash, you are the voice of reason - Holmdel
I like Prince
I think he’d be good for the young guys.
Also, saying the Landry and Hawes will slice into the cap next summer isn’t necessarily true since we don’t know if the Kings will even want to resign Hawes.
The NBA: "Where 27 free throws happens"
by lodisacfan on Jun 16, 2010 10:51 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Yes, or Landry
I wouldn’t be surprised to see any of the 3 bigs we have right now moved by the deadline
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Never
get rid of Landry, he is a force down low and efficient.
by g4y Vulture on Jun 16, 2010 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Or have drafted him...
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
by MustangMBS on Jun 16, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hopefully he will be drafted this year.
Then the cap space would be very similar to what Hawes is counting against it right now. But my point was that it is very uncertain.
Although I definitely see yours as well.
The NBA: "Where 27 free throws happens"
Even aside from financial sense and Jerryisms
I think Prince the player makes sense as well. Yes, another SF, but at least the right kind of SF – great defender, shotblocker, outsider shooter, unselfish, and good guy able to provide some veteran leadership. And while he had some injuries last year, he’s still only 30.
We all (or at least almost all) like Omri and Donte, but this would give them another season to grow into whatever roles they’re eventually going to have.
This trade makes a ton of sense for the Kings, though I don’t think this swap makes much sense for the Pistons. I suspect it would take more from the Kings (Hawes?) to make this happen.
Noc and Hawes, and the Kings keep the #5. Pistons can get their Center (Hawes) and either Monroe, or AFA
You're dreaming.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
I think they are trying.
It comes down to “at what price?”
How about Jerome James? Is that dude still playing?
There can only be one Noce!
I think the trade is just waiting for the players to fall into the proper spots. Kings draft Cousins at #5, Monroe/Whiteside drafted for Sacramento at #7 than the trade is executed. Doesn’t make sense for Detroit to consummate the trade if their target, Cousins isn’t available.
I agree
this rumor is taking place because Detroit want DMC and Kings want Monroe. If we don’t first draft Cousins at #5 (if still available) then the deal won’t occur. It makes sense for the Kings because we get Petrie’s passing center (Monroe) and pick up a great winning SF (Prince) and get rid of Noc in the process. Prince could step right in and contribute, teaching guys like Green and Omri for a few years. Prince is consistent, our SF are not.
by g4y Vulture on Jun 16, 2010 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Tayshaun Prince has had 7 years in the league, Omri and Donté 3 years in the league TOGETHER
Great Winning SFhuh:
Tayshaun Prince
2009-10 Statistics
PPG 13.5
RPG 5.1
APG 3.3
SPG 0.7
BPG 0.4
FG% 0.486
FT% 0.714
3P% 0.370
MPG 34.0
Omri Casspi
2009-10 Statistics
PPG 10.3
RPG 4.5
APG 1.2
SPG 0.7
BPG 0.2
FG% 0.446
FT% 0.672
3P% 0.369
MPG 25.1
Ok by that note Omri is just about as great and he is in his rookie year..The only thing i think that separates these 2 is Princes defense, and honestly I think Casspi without all his commitments, can definitely improve in defense and offense
Judgment day is coming!
And wasn't Casspi one of the better isolation defenders int he league?
Look at Princes first two seasons and compare that to what Omri did in season #1. Plus, Omri is a hard worker who is try to get better for a whole lot of people, not just himself.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
I love Ompri
don’t get me wrong. I am trying to justify why Kings are looking at Prince. Prince is consistent, we know he will get 13 ppg, 5 rebounds and 3 assists. He has averaged this for 6 years straight. Plus we GET RID OF NOC, the icing on the cake.
Wouldn’t Casspi/Donte be getting the departed Noc’s minutes? Prince would play SG and essentially be taking some of Beno’s time in the back court.
I guess I’m not understanding the mutual exclusion scenario you are forming between Prince/Casspi.
Prince has never been a SG.
And you don’t take a 30 year old player and move him to a new position.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
You might be right there. I know he guards SG. Offensively I don’t know how much he really played the position. He’s still not any worse than the two SF the Kings tried to use a SG this year.
It’s been brought up, but a hidden benefit of Prince if the other two do emerge is the Kings can actually shop and get offers for Prince at the trade deadline, unlike Noc.
So you are mostly doing this because you can shop him..We are already showing Casspi is right there in stats with 1/2 a bad season and 9 less min per game as Tayshuan is..
Judgment day is coming!
I’m mostly doing the trade because I have no confidence that Cousins can be an impact player 4 years down the road when the Kings ought to be pushing for deep playoff runs.
I see Cousins is talented, I see he is probably better today than almost anyone in the draft besides Wall. But I also see a 19 year old who is already 300lbs and hasn’t made much of an effort to correct his body weight for his benefit in draft status. He’s 19 but can only get away with carrying that weight for so long, not mention almost everyone puts on more bulk past age 19.
I’d rather take the current 2nd tier big man in Monroe/Whiteside than have Cousins show up looking like Oliver Miller in the not so distant future. Not to mention we already have a young center on the roster with an issue of being lazy. In addition with this trade the Kings dump a bad contract, pick up an asset who could mentor the younger players, in the least Prince is a better trade chip or his salary relief next season. Like many others I don’t see Prince taking away court time from Casspi/Greene . . . the Kings are going to continue to develop these two.
I agree with bignerd
I would love Cousins if he was in shape, but he is 19 and 300 pounds with no dedication to lose weight before being interviewed for a future job, kinda scary in my eyes. Go with a passing center in Monroe, 3.8 assists per game is absolutely insane for a college center.
290 and he went from 16.4% body fat to 13% before his interview.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
Not sure when he dropped to 13%
but I hope he did. Whether he can adapt his fitness and nutrition to the requirements of the pro game remains to be seen.
Don't forget that Blair lost 40 lbs last season before the draft
and by the time he was drafted by San Antonio his weight wasn’t a concern, his lack of ACL’s was. DMC measured out with 13% body fat at the last pre – draft workout he did with Favors although the name of the team escapes me at the moment. His agent said his goal was to drop another 10 lbs getting down to around 270 lbs.
Cousins has impressed every team he has worked out for so far with his athleticism, shot and attitude just like he impressed the Kings. If your only concern is his conditioning I’d put that behind you. In the workout videos released by the Kings, Cousins looked far more athletic than Greg Monroe did.
"I make love to pressure" - Stephen Jackson
Who else has Cousins worked out for?
I know he’s got Philly and New Jersey coming up, but aren’t we the only stop so far? Or are we talking combine?
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Cousins has only wokred out for Sac so far.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Favors too.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Love that we were the first stop.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Don't think it makes a difference.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
It does
Because we have a better opportunity at getting them back in if possible.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
I doubt that.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Well we'll have more time is what I meant
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
I know but I doubt it will matter.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
The King's better like Whiteside too
if they are going to make this deal, because I think there is a real chance Golden State takes him at #6. Obviously this would be a draft day deal so the players need to fall in to place, but I’m sure part of Whiteside coming in for a second workout has to do with this scenario.
by Mark Olberding on Jun 16, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Love the Oliver Miller reference
and right on target. We don’t need the Pillsbury Doughboy.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
This in my opinion
Is the best argument against making the deal.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Thank you
this rumor sounds like something that might have been discussed, but as long as the kings like cousins, this deal makes no sense. IMO, this deal died long ago.
Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."
by Ellimist on Jun 16, 2010 10:58 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah if they really like Cousins you are probably right
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
True, unless all of the gushing about Cousins is just a smokescreen
Just like all the gushing last year about Tyreke was just a smokescreen. Oh, wait…
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jun 16, 2010 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
I wasn't here for last year's draft but
Why did people think it was a smokescreen? What would that plan have really achieved?
In this example, the only way this could be a smokescreen would be if the Kings aren’t really sure and are thinking about someone like Monroe. So they float out the positive stuff about Cousins and the rumors come out about potentially willing to trade down. Basically they have upped Cousins valued and made it known they would also be willing to trade down. At the end of the day it leaves their options open.
Last year I didn’t hear anything about trading down. How would a smokescreen or whatever made sense.
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
The thought was that they were playing-up Evans and playing-down Rubio so that Rubio would fall to them
Especially since the Kings were the only ones that actually saw Rubio workout. It made perfect sense, except that it wasn’t true.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jun 16, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't either
I think it’s genuine.
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
I think he is a bad mother f-er.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
Shut yo mouth!
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jun 16, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't really like the trade
We need to know whether Donte or Omri (or both) are the ones that will take over that 3 spot and getting Prince for a one year rental only delays this process.
I understand trying to get rid of Noc, but I don’t like getting another SF.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
well even the young teams have to have some veterans
look at the thunder…2 of their starters are veterans in Sefolosha and Krstic
then they also have collison and kevin ollie on the bench
we dont really have veterans to mentor the players….we have cisco and beno but thats it
i see prince as a great fit….a guy that is willing to play defense (pretty well i may add) and has a nice offensive game, he is also a very long player adding to our length with tyreke
also, i dont see why if we have donte, omri, and prince…why cant omri or donte play the 2?
they are both spot-up shooters than can take the ball themselves.
"I have missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot...and missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why... I succeed." Michael Jordan.
by Surprise Team on Jun 16, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Omri and Donte are not 2s
Not long term anyways. I think it’s time to start building for the future and sticking to the plan. We have plenty of pieces, now it’s time to assemble the puzzle.
Also, Sefolosha and Krstic are not ‘blocking’ two young guys at the position. IMO, Donte and Omri are ready for the minutes so we need to find out sooner rather than later if they are the solution at the 3. Prince will most likely not be resigned after he expires so I don’t see what was accomplished by playing him for one year.
I’m not like 100% against the move, it’s just not one I think we should go for.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
by edm7 on Jun 16, 2010 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
why cant they be?
i do not see at all why omri or donte cannot play the 2….are they not fast enough? are they not good enough of shooters? please explain that to me
and i respectfully disagree with sefolosha and krstic not blocking two young guys….in fact, its the complete opposite
the thunder drafted two sg’s who are waiting in the wings and are “blocked” by sefolosha….james harden and kyle weaver
the thunder drafted two big men who are behind krstic being "blocked….serge ibaka and bj mullens
if we never try omri and donte out at the 2, its the same thing as not finding out sooner than later if they can play the 2
and why cant prince not be resigned? what if ends up being a great fit?
"I have missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot...and missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why... I succeed." Michael Jordan.
by Surprise Team on Jun 16, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
So Kyle Weaver has as much upside as Donte or Omri?
Both BJ Mullens and Serge Ibaka are projects and just because Ibaka had one good run let’s not think he’s the savior in OKC. They still need to add a legit big if they want to contend.
I understand the point of adding veteran presence but I’m not down with paying a lot of $$ (and trading down) just because we need a leader. That’s what the coaching staff is for.
Prince is 30 and will be about 33-34 when the Kings are (hopefully) contending or becoming a decen tplayoff team. If he comes here, I don’t see why you would resign him.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
well
if you say just because ibaka had one good run lets not call him the savior then the same should be said of casspi (which I doubt anyone would say)
if you arent down with paying a lot of $$, we are going to have to pay a ton of $$ to nocioni if we dont get a trade with him….and the only way we can do that is if we take back a big contract….
so if we can get rid of nocioni and get a contract that will be off the books next year for a much better player….WHY NOT?
prince has never had a big injury issue in his career….so I dont see why at 33 or 34 he cant still produce….
look at paul pierce (32), ray allen (34), ginobili (32), jamison (34), terry (32)….they all still produce at a very high level
"I have missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot...and missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why... I succeed." Michael Jordan.
by Surprise Team on Jun 16, 2010 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
did you watch Greene try and defend Douglas-Roberts in the Nets game
Casspi and Greene are just not quick enough to be long term SG in the NBA. not to say in certain situations it will work, but as an everyday match up they would get killed defensively and not make that big of a difference offensively.
Still waiting for the Euler of basketball to play for the Kings
douglas-roberts is one sg in the league
just because donte cant guard a certain player that plays a certain position has no relevance to whether he can guard the position….
casspi isnt as strong as ron artest, does that mean omri cant guard an SF? no.
"I have missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot...and missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why... I succeed." Michael Jordan.
by Surprise Team on Jun 16, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Ibaka will be the starter next year
and Harden will grab more minutes. Very promising team.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
I agree ed
It really seems like some people have forgotten how good Omri was the first half of the season. If we get that Casspi for a full season would Prince really be that much of an upgrade?
I love beating dead horses.
Please see stats i just posted..Prince overall in 2009/2010 season is not that far over Omri stat wise.
Tayshaun Prince
2009-10 Statistics
PPG 13.5
RPG 5.1
APG 3.3
SPG 0.7
BPG 0.4
FG% 0.486
FT% 0.714
3P% 0.370
MPG 34.0
Omri Casspi
2009-10 Statistics
PPG 10.3
RPG 4.5
APG 1.2
SPG 0.7
BPG 0.2
FG% 0.446
FT% 0.672
3P% 0.369
MPG 25.1
Judgment day is coming!
Ok, lets not put the entire decision on the stats. I’m sure Nick Anderson’s career statistics where much better than Doug Christie’s. We all know Christie’s contribution was doing everything not included in the stats.
Ok what else besides Defense? Like was said above yes Tayshaun is a GOOD Defender, and Omri is still learning. Everything i saw from Omri 1st part of the year puts him higher then Prince in my book. We have a glut at SF which is another reason why I think Omri’s #‘s would have been better then Princes. That and hes 9 million cheaper. If we somehow can dump Noc’s contract, I would like to see the minutes only go to Green and Casspi so we can give them consistency.
What this team really needs right now is a great Defensive minded center (At the rim was a huge defensive Issue for us last year), and a really good guard, who can work the assists, hit some stop and pops, and help us in 3 pt land. He needs to be able to work with both Evans and Beno (heaven forbid one get hurt) . I don’t like Omri at guard, he is more suited for SF. I think Donté’s time at SG is in the past, as he is better at SF/PF.
As for our Big men: Landry is probably gone either midway through year if we aren’t contending, or gone at end of year unless the Maloofs’ are willing to pay well for him. Hawes, I have tried to keep in my mind how young he is, but the inconsistency, my perception of lack of effort (Like Miller) have all contributed to my head as just not seeing that he is right for the team we are creating. We don’t need an offense minded Center, we need a stopper, a road block..we need someone like a Okafor or a Dalembert. JT QUIT FOULING!..That is all
Judgment day is coming!
The end of your rather good comment is too funny. The teams that have Okafor and Dalembert don’t want Okafor or Dalembert.
Thanks a lot had to think a lot for that last line..And i agree that’s why i would want them..i think they would fit more here then Spencer does, and i think Spencer would fit better in a triangle like most others do. Next year we should have enough 10ft-3pt scoring to not need our center to…We really need someone large that can bang for put-backs and Rebounds, and be clogging the def lane so people aren’t just rolling in on us as much as they were last year. I can remember too many games where we just got decimated on at the hoop, but i also remember the games we got decimated on at the 3 point line.
Judgment day is coming!
No
And if Donte improves as much this year as he did last year they both are probably better. This move would be stupid.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
My point is that I don't need to win a few extra games next year
and Noce could almost certainly be bought out for a lot less than the 11.4 Prince is owed.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jun 16, 2010 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions
maybe because (a) nobody wants him and (b) you would be waisting even more money having him sit on the bench
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
he has little trade value unfortunately
and he’s just in the way – and knows it.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jun 16, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
im sure
there is a team out there that would take him, he’s not a bad player at all
Well now that you put it that way
yeah sure why not. A lot of teams would see Nocioni and his contract as an asset. I can’t believe the Kings haven’t figured out a trade.
Rec’d for insight.
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
and of course what Ed said about Donte' and Omri
which I mentioned on the other thread.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jun 16, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Question for the smart people
Could Prince conceivably start at 2 guard for us next to ‘Reke? If he could, this trade would make a lot more sense since we’re probably going to have to add another guard to the roster at some point in the offseason anyways to play significant minutes. A new starting 2 would let Beno get all of the backup PG minutes and Cisco most of the backup 2 guard minutes, and we should be set in the backcourt. In other words, that would add to the savings of this deal because it could potentially keep us from having to sign someone to play minutes at the 1 or the 2.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jun 16, 2010 11:14 AM PDT reply actions
well
he isnt really that great of a spot up shooter which is what we have been looking for to pair up with reke
frankly, i do not see at all why omri or even donte cant play the 2….they both are great spot-up shooters and benefitted greatly last year from playing with tyreke
it doesnt matter how tall someone is to play the position….it just matters that they play it right and i think that omri or donte do that
magic johnson was a 6’9 PG, Charles Barkley was 6’6 yet was a great PF in the league
and i just wrote all this before realizing u said for “the smart people”…sorry
"I have missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot...and missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why... I succeed." Michael Jordan.
by Surprise Team on Jun 16, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
They can't play the 2 long term
because they don’t habdle the ball well enough, and Reke needs someone else to handle it from time to time. They also can’t create for others and Reke also needs someone who can help with that.
Remember how Beno seemed to work well with Tyreke? We need a “better Beno”
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
well neither does wesley johnson
but a week ago we were all on the wesley johnson bandwagon saying that he doesnt need to handle the ball because tyreke already does a lot of that
why cant that same principle be applied to omri and donte?
"I have missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot...and missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why... I succeed." Michael Jordan.
by Surprise Team on Jun 16, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
When you say "we were all"
do you mind naming people, because I doubt everyone thought he could play the 2
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
I think he can play the 2
But the Kings brass might not, and its their opinion that matters.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
I don't think he can play it 'yet'
but I do believe he’s more suited to the 3
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
well if you dont think he can play it yet
i assume you are still holding out hope that he can….
so if a 22 year old wesley johnson can adapt his game to become a shooting guard,
why cant they 21 year old donte or omri do the same?
"I have missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot...and missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why... I succeed." Michael Jordan.
by Surprise Team on Jun 16, 2010 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Friendly wager
Donte and Omri are not and will not develop to be SGs. Coaching staff will not try to develop them there and if they do, it will not work. That’s my opinion.
What’s yours?
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
mine is
that they can become SGs.
"I have missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot...and missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why... I succeed." Michael Jordan.
by Surprise Team on Jun 16, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Cool
I’ll be here at the end of next season. Remind me then how that worked out
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
but
they have to be given the oppurtunity to become a shooting guard, especially donte.
"I have missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot...and missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why... I succeed." Michael Jordan.
by Surprise Team on Jun 16, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
it even says here
on SBNation, the main website for our SacTown Royalty blog
that Donte has the body of a power forward, but the skills of a shooting guard.
Read the scouting report on him.
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/38958/Donte_Greene
"I have missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot...and missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why... I succeed." Michael Jordan.
by Surprise Team on Jun 16, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I have seen Donte enough to know.
He is a 3. Any other position is a stretch and only good in situational spots.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
I like the idea...
Reke and Prince in the back court would be very good defensively, not to mention starting Greene at the 3 would bring hight and length to our back court. Beno and Garcia, and Omri would bring instant energy off the bench. We need veteran leadership on our team, and the addition of Prince would greatly help the youngsters’ develop. The plus side is it’s basically renting Prince for a year, saves the Kings cap for 2011.
That would be a horrible rebounding team.
I’m waiting for someone to post this line up:
Evans
Prince
Donté
Landry
Hawes
Oh my.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
Not much of an upgrade
Beno
Evans
Greene
Landry
Cousins or Thompson, or Hawes.
Rebounding wise?
The Kings best rebounding line-up would be something like-
Evans
Prince
Casspi
Thompson
Cousins
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
love it...
but that means either the Kings keep the 5th pick, and its a straight up Noc for Prince Trade, or Cousins magically falls to the Kings at 7. I wonder if a Noc + Hawes for Prince would work???
What about
Evans
Prince
Donté (or Casspi if you’re stressing rebounds)
Monroe
Thompson
I see improvements there in rebounding and defense over last year, and maybe improved ball movement if Monroe plays like some people think he could (a Neo-Divac, or a better Hawes, essentially). Shooting could be a problem, but it’s still a step in the right direction, I think.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jun 16, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
This trade is horrible.
First up, the Pistons would love to rid themselves of the 11 million owed Prince. It’s not that he is a bad player but he is far from a 11 million dollar player at this stage in his career. Moving Prince for Noc, straight up, is a pretty even swap when you consider injuries and salary concerns.
Secondly, Prince is no where near enough value to move back from #5 to #7 in a 5 man draft, even if you factor in Noc. I don’t see Prince as a huge upgrade like I would say a Rudy Gay type player.
The Kings have two young small forwards that very well may end up being better than Prince. Grounding either or both, without a substantial upgrade seems very short sided. If you can’t really improve the position by leaps and bounds, then stand pat. Don’t let the desire to rid yourself of Nocioni force you to take on a player that really doesn’t fit long-term.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
by jjham15 on Jun 16, 2010 11:18 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
"a player that really doesn’t fit long-term"
Does that description sound more like
a) Prince, who has one year left on his contract and is a good teammate
b) Nocioni, who has two years left on his contract and is a terrible teammate
If anyone thinks we’re getting the perfect player for the future trading Nocioni’s terrible contract and moving back two spots in the draft they’re living in fantasy land.
Believe, I know Nocioni has 0 value
My only concern would be that everyone talks about Prince coming in to start at the 3, and I’d rather give all thos eminutes to Donte and Omri. If Noce comes back, he’s going to sit on the bench (at least that’s what I think would happen) so Donte and Omri will still get those minutes.
I just don’t see the long term benefits to bringing Prince in. If you want to bring him in and still give the minutes to Donte and Omri, then I’m all for it. I just don’t see any benefit whatsoever to starting Prince at the 3 for one year and then letting him walk.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
by edm7 on Jun 16, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I hear you
But look at this way. Last year there were five small forwards – Nocioni, Udoka, Greene, Garcia, and Casspi. Prince would hopefully eliminate the need for a Udoka, so there would be less of a logjam than last year. Prince and Greene can slide over to the 4 at times, and Garcia will mainly be backing up at the 2. I feel like there are enough minutes to go around, especially with the way Westphal coaches.
I just feel like when you combine the financial benefits with the possibility that Prince is a good fit and could help a playoff run (have to start winning at some point) and be a good veteran presence, it’s a no-brainer to me. I’m all about developing Casspi and Greene, but this gives them another year of apprenticeship before one of them takes over.
by nbrans on Jun 16, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Got it
And like I said before, I’m not completely oppossed to the idea. It’s just not my favorite.
Looks like we’re adding another big in the draft so that should cut any extra minutes available at the 4, for Prince or donte to play. Prince demands minutes at the 3, so Omri and Donte would have to split those and I just don’t see how they can develop by playing 10 minutes a game.
I also don’t see us getting to the playoffs, unless something really crazy happens, this coming year so there may be a disagreement there too.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
Well, I think Monroe/Whiteside would probably play more at the 5
So you have:
C: JT/Whiteside
PF: Landry/JT/Donte
SF: Prince/Casspi/Donte
SG: Evans/Garcia
PG: Beno/FA
I agree that the playoffs would be farfetched, but I think Prince would be worth quite a bit. He’s a really good all-around player.
This is not what his teammates said about him.
Nocioni, who has two years left on his contract and is a terrible teammate
Noc might want out, he did get a DUI but he was also the player that every other King pointed to as the best defender on the team. No one has complained about Noc as a teammate that I have seen. He is intense. He hates to lose. He doesn’t want to be a Kings any longer because he is not part of the plan.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
And Noc couldn't have complained about Evans shot selection as well?
But he didn’t and Evans apologized for being unprofessional.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
Evans complained about his shot selection at a particularly bad time.
I don’t think that compaint was all encompassing.
There can only be one Noce!
the low-percentage shots early in the shot clock are not generally the hallmark
of a great teammate.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
I can't imagine it went over well
But I can’t imagine many players throwing him under the bus publicly.
If I were on the team, I’d have wanted to stomp a hole in Nocioni a few times. If you’re going to be a volume shooter, you damn well better make a lot of them.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
There were plenty of times where the same could be said about Evans.
I want Noc gone just like most people here. He doesn’t fit. He isn’t worth the cash he is owed. But Noc wasn’t the reason the Kings couldn’t win last year.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
You can't compare Nocioni and Evans
Evans is a very good player.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
But you can't just pin the "bad teammate" pin on Noc....
because a rookie went to the press and said so.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
No, I agree
For all I know, the rest of the guys on the team adore Nocioni. But from a basketball perspective, he wasn’t a great team player last season. And he’s bitched in the press two straight years that he’d rather not be here.
And now I’m trying to remember why we are arguing about this. :)
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
And Evans doesn't have hallmarks of a bad teammate?
Look, I like Evans just like everyone else but let’s not pretend that he is a perfect teammate. He dribbles too much. He is not a willing passer. He stands around on defense. The Kings do not have a perfect player, including Mr. Evans. There was plenty to complain about by teammates from a pure basketball perspective in year one.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
is this chapu4u in disguise?
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
No, this is an intelligent person defending a position.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
are you calling chapu4u stupid?
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
No, I don't think he's a perfect teammate
But Nocioni’s role on this team was to be a veteran presence. Evans role was to learn and get better. One of those guys did their job last season.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
I disagree.
Every player, when asked during a halftime show said that Nocioni was the best defender the team had. Noc obviously made a positive impact on his teammates. By the end of the season when he was mired in trash time play, he became a chucker. This isn’t necessarily the first time we have seen this type of behavior.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
Every player?
Why don’t I remember this?
Having watched pretty much every game, and perusing some advanced statistics – I’d have to say Nocioni was one of the very worst defensive players on the team last season. You could argue maybe Landry, Beno and Speed (while he was with the team).
Nocioni may have given the most effort, but he wasn’t close to the best defender on the squad.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
They did one of those ask the Kings and all of them pointed to Noc.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
Not that I don't believe you JJ
But I’d need a link or something. This sounds pretty ludicrous, especially when you look at his performance defensively.
Maybe they said he gives the most effort defensively? Because he was clearly not the best defender on the team.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
I agree, my point wasn't that he was.
My point was that his teammates believed that he was and that he was having a veteran influence on the younger players.
I want Noc gone just like most other people. I just don’t think that we should heap a bunch of crap on him on the way out the door. If he was movable, the tenor towards him would be a whole lot different than it is today. Again, I’m not a huge fan of the guy but the Kings were at their best early in the season when he was starting.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
that sounds like a horribly boring halftime show
no wonder the Maloofs are losing money
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
WTF?
JJ… I think you have gone off the deepend here. Evan’s assist rate went up almost every month that he played and he ended up the season with a lot of games where he had 8-9 assists.
As has been pointed out, if his teammates had hit their shots better he would have had even more assists. Saying anything else is just pure BS.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
His assist rate may have gone up...
But the dude still dribbles WAY to much. Hopefully that is something he’ll learn to improve on OR the coaching will design less “dribble around for 23 seconds then pass when you’re in a pickle” play. I understand the:
if his teammates had hit their shots better he would have had even more assistsconcept. But from watching the games a lot of these missed shots were last second throw-up’s due to an expiring clock from the " dribble around for 23 seconds then pass when you’re in a pickle" play.
There will be a SammyP wherever you go. But don't worry, it scared me at first too.
The King's game changed over the course of the season.
Blame the coaching, not Evans then. The pace of the game is set by the coach and that is what caused those last second shots.
The first 2/3rds the Kings were very slow to bring the ball up the court. It was all half court sets and then Evans would drive to breakdown the defense and kick it out for a shot to somebody else.
The last third of the season they sped up the game. Having Evans and Beno run on turnovers and breakouts. It helped that the defense got a bit better. This really helped to get the offense going and there were less last second shots.
I think this, above, explains a lot of the last second shots and I don’t blame Evans. If anybody, I would blame the coaching staff. They after all are in charge and tell the players, especially a rookie, what to do.
I take issue with anybody saying he isn’t a willing passer. It just isn’t true. You don’t make a season average of 5 APG and have lots of games with 8-9 assists if you are selfish. That is a load of crap.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Allen Iverson
Had SEASONS where he averaged 7+ assists. (From ‘05-’08 in particular).
Assists do not necessarily make an individual unselfish.
Though I would tend to agree that Evans is not a particularly selfish player, he does need to help get other people going more. I believe he will develop that over the next couple of years and become more and more of a distributor AND scorer… basically (and we all know this) Evans is a very special player.
Go Kings!
Blessings.Love.Peace
Want to listen to some independent music? Visit: www.nixonsghost.com
by lifestyleforthesellout on Jun 16, 2010 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Link Fail
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html
Blessings.Love.Peace
Want to listen to some independent music? Visit: www.nixonsghost.com
by lifestyleforthesellout on Jun 16, 2010 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you are missing my point.
All I am saying is that Noc isn’t exactly the devil in disguise here. People are claiming he is a bad teammate all of the sudden because Evans called him out once. In his previous 6 years in the NBA, Noc has never had issues like this, at least none that I have heard of.
Evans is a special player but being completely honest, not all of his traits as a player are pluses for the Kings franchise. We have already seen with the Kevin Martin situation, that not every player can play alongside Evans. We are seeing the same conversation with regards to draft picks. The Kings can’t draft Evan Turner because…. John Wall wouldn’t work because…. Having Evans is great and all but he also causes some problems because of his style of play. And lets not forget that word around the Kings during the season was that a lot of players were unhappy with the way Evans controlled the ball for way too much of the game.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
by jjham15 on Jun 16, 2010 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't know, but...
…this sure sounds like Chapu4u in disguise to me.
(He even used the words “in disguise”!)
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
My last take(s) on this
First, I think a “good” teammate doesn’t try to bail out on his team two straight offseasons.
Second, comparing Evans (a talented rookie averaging over 30 minutes per night) and Nocioni (a journeyman player averaging under 20 per night) is really apples and oranges. We all know that elite, productive players get more leeway and young players with potential get leeway. Tyreke appears to fit both of these criteria.
Ultimately, if Evans leadership (and ability to run the offense properly) doesn’t improve over time, then he’s fair for criticism. At this point, I think Nocioni has fully earned any criticism he receives.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
by otis29 on Jun 16, 2010 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
good counter point too
all around darn good discussion between otis and jj
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
So... Did you decide to trash Evans because that helped make the case that Noc can't be too bad?
I understand that nbrans brought up Evans complaining about Noc, but isn’t that sort of weak. Either defend Noc on his own merits and, yes, he has them or not. Don’t trash other players to defend him.
And why trash Evans when what he did was appropriate. Maybe you thin it wasn’t, but I think it was needed. Noc was being a chucker and even you admit that. He got that ball and would never pass it. That is UNTIL Evans called him out. After that he was a much better teammate and got a number of assists.
Making this about Evans in order to get away with not defending Noc doesn’t help your case. It is a big fat Red Herring.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
I should also add
That I agree with you on many points regarding the trade in your post above. As the finances and other stuff. Probably agree on more points than I disagree, but I do take strong exception to trashing Evans.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
I haven't trashed Evans.
I have pointed out that this was more of a pot calling the kettle black situation. ALL players have flaws, including Noc and Evans. I found it humorous that Evans would be unprofessional (which he admitted to) and went to the press instead of going to Noc directly when countless Kings could have gone to the media and talked about the same issues with Evans.
There is a funny thing about players that lose playing time. They often try to prove their worth in the limited minutes they get. That doesn’t always work out so well.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
Not going to address the whole Red Herring thing eh?
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Your red harring comment is moronic.
Go back through and read all of these comments. I have made the case for Nocioni not being a bad teammate without using Evans as a prop. When the Evans situation was brought up, I defended Noc in that situation because Evans admitted he was wrong and handled the situation the wrong way. Noc took the criticism and said nothing publicly about a 20 year old rookie lighting him up in the press.
I can go back through this argument and tear apart many of your comments with no problem what so ever. When you use the red herring comment, you yourself are deflecting a weak argument and personally attacking me. I find it disrespectful and beneath the work that you usually put forth.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
Whatever dude.
Saying somebody is using a fallacy is not disrespectful. That is unless you want to take it that way. Your choice
It is a Red Herring when you are defending something and do so by turning around to attach another thing or person. Be as insulted as you want, but that is 100% true in every case. You can defend it and take it personal all you want. Again, that is your choice, but I didn’t go all ad hominem on you or anything.
The only thing Evans handled wrong was by re-stating what he said, on the court directly to Nocioni, to the media (The Bee) after the game. Rookie move, but see.. Here I am defending Evans when the conversation was about Nocioni. Nice move there. Just fallacious. If you can’t handle hearing that then your skin is a bit too thin.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
I think I missed the part where jjham insulted your mother.
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I've been around just not commented as much today.
Seriously, why are you so butt hurt over what jj said? Seriously I had to take a second look and see whether JJ said something about sleeping with Tyreke’s mom.
He gave a completely reasonable explanation for the Tyreke comments.
Why is it when anyone has anything critical to say about a Kings player it’s treated like somehow the players are innocent victims being viciously attacked?
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Butthurt? Not at all.
Just stubborn. I have just read back through this thread and it is what it is and it is just BS. That is all. I can’t see that I am wrong on that at all and the justification didn’t really wash either IMO.
I think that jj and I are done and I doubt you want in so this can be over. I said what I need to and that is that.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Fair enough
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Let me explain how we got to where we are.
Nbrans made the statement that Nocioni is a “terrible teammate”.
I responded that he wasn’t a terrible teammate.
Nbrans responded that “Evans complained about him”.
This exchange brought Evans into the discussion as proof that Noc was a bad teammate- basically appealing to Evans as an authority on the subject. I attacked the notion that Evans is a an authority on the subject because I do not believe that after less than 82 games, a 20 year old rookie is established enough to make this claim- a claim that he apologized for later. I also used Evans own play style and ability as secondary evidence that he was not an authority on the subject because he makes similar mistakes as those being attributed to Nocioni.
I did not bring up either the “Nocioni is a terrible teammate” or the “because Tyreke Evans said so argument”. I defended the counter position of these arguments.
It is a Red Herring when you are defending something and do so by turning around to attach another thing or person.
I did not turn this argument on Evans, Nbrans did. The fact that Evans became entrenched in the argument was more a function of the sensitivity that people have towards Evans as a player.
You established what you believed was a fallacious argument and attached that argument to me which is where you are wrong. I merely followed the flow of the argument/counter argument as it developed. You can say that this is BS or a red herring or whatever the hell you want but I disagree.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
Besides
I’m no expert, but wouldn’t it be more of a straw man, and not a red herring?
Red herrings are meant to mislead someone by making them think that something is more important than it really is. That’s not what you were doing.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
Sigh..
Been a while since my logic coursework so it could be true. I will provide both with thanks to Wiki.
Wiki’s def of straw man:
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar yet weaker proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
Wiki on Red Herring:
This occurs when a speaker attempts to distract an audience by deviating from the topic at hand by introducing a separate argument which the speaker believes will be easier to speak to.
I think it is the latter. I don’t know what fallacy it is to blame nbrans, who posted one sentence, for using fallacious BS and to justify dishonest crap.
With that I am done. Good night.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
You keep saying you are done after trashing me.
I didn’t blame anyone, I displayed how the discussion began.
don’t know what fallacy it is to blame nbrans, who posted one sentence, for using fallacious BS and to justify dishonest crap.
I have not been dishonest in the least bit and you jumped into this thread way late and started making accusations. You have continued to make this personal when it really has nothing to do with you or anyone else. I have stated my opinion regarding Nocioni as a teammate. I have also argued points and counterpoints, regardless of where the conversation has gone which was not always dictated by me, regardless of what Nbrans thinks.
You aren’t quite sure which fallacy you think I have violated now and you are using the ever so reliable sourcing of wikipedia to supplement your argument.
You have created a straw man argument against me, insisting that I have opened a smear campaign against Tyreke Evans to “trash him” when in fact, I have done nothing but point to flaws that are easily evident in his game if you have watched him play.
He dribbles too much. He is not a willing passer. He stands around on defense.
Please tell me where I am wrong with this statement. I know you watch Evans play and there were countless times this season where Evans took a ball coast to coast with a teammate flanking him and refused to pass. He is not a natural point guard. That doesn’t mean he isn’t a point guard, just that the position and some of the responsibilities that come with the role don’t come naturally. I’m not out on a limb.
I’m still wondering where I trashed Evans and again, I am pretty annoyed that you have continued to attack me, calling my opinion bullshit, fallacious and dishonest.
If you are truly done this time, don’t respond because I’ve had enough of you for a while.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
Um.
Actually what happened is that you said no teammate has ever complained about Nocioni.
I pointed out that someone did (Evans). Where you took it from there is your own doing.
True
but I also don’t think he took it very far. If this is enough to be called out for “trashing evans” then I don’t even see the point of us ever uttering Tyreke’s name anymore unless it is to praise him for a 20-5-should-have-been-10-but-his-teammates-can’t-make-shots-off-his-perfect-passes-Evans.
I enjoyed reading the thread until the Tyreke Evans fanclub jumped in it.
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks WW.
Annoyed.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
well said jj
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Put Reke on the Lakers
and he is 10+ assists per game. I couldn’t count how many open jumpers the Kings missed after a great pass from Tyreke, it was embarrassing. The Lakers was just a reference of a great supporting cast. I hate them!
I think that line of argument is a bit specious
All point guards lose assists due to missed shots that should have been made.
So you may be right, but I’d have to see some statistical analysis that shows Tyreke’s teammates were noticeably worse than league average in that regard.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Pretty sure that the Kings shot worse than NBA league average.
Where is HighTops when you need him? Seems like he just broke this out and the Kings didn’t fair so well.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
The Kings did shoot belowe the NBA league average
I don’t think that in and of itself is proof – you’d have to go into greater detail IMO.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
I'm too lazy to find a link,
but HighTops has looked at this in some depth, and one of his main conclusions is that Evans gives a much higher percentage of his assists than most pgs to players on the perimeter— either long 2’s or 3’s. If Evans were delivering more passes to cutters heading to the rim, the recipients of his passes would convert more and he’s have more assists.
It’s not just a matter of him having poor shooting teammates, but him passing to teammates in places where they have to make tougher shots.
Very nicely put.
And again, this is something he will hopefully grow into.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
I'm not basing on statistics
just watching almost every game and shaking my head when a player misses a wide open shot after a great pass from Reke. It happens way too much.
You need to watch other teams.
Players on every team miss wide open shots. The average NBA field goal percentage is less than 50% from the field. That means that there are a lot of passes in every game that lead to missed shots. Evans is no Steve Nash or Chris Paul. He is not a precision passer yet. Players who are great passer, put their targets in the best possible position to make a basket. Evans has yet to reach a point where he can start pointing fingers at others. He may get there but he is not there yet.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
We won 25 games
It is obvious that our guys are not making open shots. Maybe only Minn and NJ are worst…lol
Again
That’s extremely simplistic. I could just as easily argue that the Kings were one of the worst shotmaking teams last season because Tyreke didn’t pass the ball to the right guy at the right time in the offensive sets.
Neither theory can be proven without delving pretty deep into shot charts, etc.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
This has turned into a ridiculous poo slinging contest.
Fans fall in love with players. When those players are put under scrutiny, there is often this type of reaction. Look at the conversations regarding Kevin Martin for the last few years. If you step out and talk about he doesn’t play any D, then you are a hater. Evans is a young player with a flaws just like any other player. He is the franchise and the Kings made that very clear from about January on. I am fine with this decision but that doesn’t mean he is off limits which is certainly what your posts have suggested today.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
No he isn't.
Evans is not a high enough quality distributor at this point in his career.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
I have to disagree with this
How many 21 year olds were better distibutors than the Tyreke Evans that we saw average almost 7 assists per game after the all star break (while primarily sharing the backcourt with Beno, who was averaging another 6.3 assists)?
I agree that he needs to become an even better distributor. I disagree that he should be further along at this point in his career. In fact, I think that he is ahead of where anyone could have reasonably expected, given his age and experience at the lead guard position.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jun 16, 2010 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
This. +1 Reke'd
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Out of respect Section...
I will post the comment I was responding to.
Put Reke on the Lakers and he is 10+ assists per game. I couldn’t count how many open jumpers the Kings missed after a great pass from Tyreke, it was embarrassing.
I stand by this statement 100% and I think you will agree with me.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
Ah -
Makes more sense. I would agree that Evans would not be a 10+ assist guy on the L*kers. I’m not sure that Nash could be a 10+ assist guy for the Lakers, given how much of their offense is Kobe off the dribble.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Amen.
Blessings.Love.Peace
Want to listen to some independent music? Visit: www.nixonsghost.com
by lifestyleforthesellout on Jun 16, 2010 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions
also
he said “AT this point in his career” not “FOR this point in his career”. It doesn’t really matter how well other 20 year olds distribute if you’re comparing him to the league as a whole.
That being said, the fact that he WAS this good of a distributor for a 20 year old makes me giddy for the future.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
neither are high percentage shots at the end of the shot clock a hallmark of a great teammate.
Both are hallmarks of either a bad player or a good player. Good/bad teammate is something else.
There can only be one Noce!
If we didnt swap picks
Then it would be ok I guess. Still kinda pointless, as weather Noce or Prince neither should take signifigant minutes from Green and Omri
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not saying I love this trade, but I respectfully disagree with what your saying.
1) its a one year deal. Its not like we’d be sacrificing our whole future flexibility by taking him on, as the Brand/Philly deal would be.
2) Prince is a excellent player, and could be used in a good fashion while still giving Donte/Casspi minutes. Both those guys are very young, and neither are legitimately ready for starting minutes. A year of watching and learning from Championship caliber player could very well be a GOOD thing for these guys. Its my belief that veteran players can have a big influence in helping show young players what it takes to win games.
3) If Petrie likes, or is sold on Monroe/Whiteside and decides he wants to draft one of them, why not trade down 2 slots, get a good veteran player, dump Nocioni, and open up cap space for the new CBA?
I think thats the bottom line. If Petrie is sold on Cousins and believes he is a great great player, then he should take him. If he is not, and thinks someone like Monroe or Whiteside might fit better for the kings going forward, why not accomplish said things all at once?
While this trade could potentially be good, I’m still intrigued by Cousins if he is available at 5, and would like to see him in a kings uniform. But this trade is hardly horrible.
Sometimes you just have to look yourself in the mirror and say....Tyreke Evans.
That just happened.
I think both Casspi and Donte
clearly need a veteran to show them what it takes to succeed in the L.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Wait a second here...
Prince is a excellent player
When did Prince get elevated to “excellent”? He averages 12.7 points a game for his career. He doesn’t rebound particularly well, steal the ball or block shots. He is a good three point shooter, not great and he has never been a vocal leader. He is a role player. That’s it. And if you look at Omri Casspi’s stats from last season, it is not hard to see where he will be a better player this season than Prince.
Prince is a good defensive player but I have trouble seeing where he will do good for this team. Casspi or Greené might not end up being the long term answer but we KNOW that Prince will not be. Why retard the growth of young players for a one year rental, 4.6 million in cap space and Greg Monroe over Cousins?
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
by jjham15 on Jun 16, 2010 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
he said retard...heh heh
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
well i disagree with some parts
he doesnt steal the ball or block shots well? um this is the guy that had one of the biggest blocks in nba history on reggie miller…..the only reason he gets invited to team usa is for his defense
i completely agree that he isnt a vocal leader, but i believe he still is a leader, just not on the court. he is a leader off the court in practice, by working hard, studying film….this guy is one of the smartest players in the league. By watching film, he discovers the opponents weaknesses and strengths and exploits them on defense. That is something that I would love to see Omri and Donte learn.
and from my understanding, his contract is off the books next summer, which is when we are expected to make our big free agency splash.
also, if petrie wanted cousins and saw something big in cousins..he wouldn’t trade the 5th pick even if it got rid of nocioni. Petrie understands we are rebuilding and need a big man….if he were to trade the 5th pick then that shows he is interested in someone not named DeMarcus Cousins because we all know that the reason Detroit is moving up is to take Cousins
"I have missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot...and missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why... I succeed." Michael Jordan.
by Surprise Team on Jun 16, 2010 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Look at the stats.
A big block here or there doesn’t make a player good at blocking shots.
Prince, for his career, averages .6 steals and .6 blocks per game. He is a very good position defender who made the 2nd team all defensive team 4 years in a row. But he isn’t worth 11 million a year and he isn’t worth slowing the growth of other players. If the Kings want to go out and get a young small forward that is under contract for a while and is better than what Omri or Donté project out to be then so be it. Prince is not that guy.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
I agree with all these points
Price will not get the Kings to the playoffs but he is a one year rental that will take up minutes from casspi and Greene but that is not the worst thing in the world. and if Petrie really wants Monroe/whitside why not open up some money for next year when the Kings should be pushing for a playoff spot.
Still waiting for the Euler of basketball to play for the Kings
i dont know what the opposite of rec is... but i give it to this.
At USC we're not snobs, we're just better than you.
I think the point of getting Prince
is essentially we get him for “free” because the Kings want Monroe and instead of picking him at 5 can trade down and grab him at 7. We then get Prince in the deal for trading down and get rid of noc. It makes sense if we know Monroe is our guy and he will be there at 7.
This sums it up nicely
If you can’t really improve the position by leaps and bounds, then stand pat.
The Kings are competent at every position, but below average as a team. We need at least two more stars at the SG, SF and C positions. Ideally they’d be at the SG and SF positions and we’d get a solid defensive minded board guy like Perkins at the center spot.
Tayshaun Price doesn’t do that for you. It’s just a shift of pieces that does nothing to improve the team for the long run.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
by NewEraKings on Jun 16, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Could it be that the Pistons want another player (not DMC) with the 5th pick?
If yes, we can still draft him at #7 because there is no way the Warriors are picking him.
Explain the Warriors thing, please.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Jun 16, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, that doesn't make any sense
I think the Dubs would jump on Cousins if he were there…
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Faster than Ailene
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
by Aykis16 on Jun 16, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Unless they change their philosophy and game style 100%, it makes no sense.
Since Baron Davis and Nellie’s come back in 2006, they have an extremely free and small ball type of game. All of them are (at least mid range) shooters (except Biedrins who’s very fast for his height anyway). The last 5 years they hardly use a center apart from Biedrins who’s only doing dirty defensive work (rebs and blocks) and rarely gets any offensive touches. Now with Curry and Ellis they’re even quicker. They even play with 4 guards and a forward sometimes. Maggette played most of the season at PF.
Cousins is relatively slow and I can’t see him fitting in super fast tempo team like the Warriors. Plus he won’t get offensively involved and that would be disastrous for him. His style has nothing to do with this..
Of course there’s another side to this, that might make the Dubs a completely different team: They change owner and it looks like Nelson won’t be back next year. We all know he kind of wasted the team’s last seasons just to get his record. Now he’s not even attending the workouts. He’s still in Maui indifferent about the team. Plus they are thinking of trading Ellis, that could decrease their tempo.
Anyway, this is all pointless because DMC fits very well the Pistons.
I think it's exactly why the Dubs would take Cousins
My guess is Nelson’s coached his final game for the Warriors. Whichever billionaire buys the team is going to put his own GM and coach in place, and you can be sure it’s going to involve a more “traditional” offense than what Nelson runs.
If you draft Cousins, you now have a pretty promising inside-outside combination with him and Curry.
Hell, I’d even say in a Nelson offense, Cousins would thrive – he just might not progress defensively as a player.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
No
they only want DMC, from everything I’ve read. And we want DMC if he’s at 5. So this is all moot.
trade piece
Prince would sure make a nice trade piece next season near the trade deadline.
Machiavelli would be proud
Of all the convoluted reasoning for this trade, the most completely twisted has to be the idea that we trade for Prince so that we have a good trade piece in the future.
And it would have to be at the deadline, since he’s only under contract for the coming year.
Anyway, it’s absurd to acquire a guy just because he’d be good trade bait in the future. Especially when we’re a rebuilding team who already has enough of that type of player.
Ironically, Machiavelli’s most noted work was called “The Prince”.
StR Token Female
by LeaguePassAddict on Jun 16, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I might be wrong...
But I don’t think Noc for Prince even works straight up salary-wise. A guy like Hawes would have to be included to even make the trade work.
yes it would
We would be below the salary cap
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Running through Trade Checker on RealGM
Due to Detroit being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Detroit had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did not happen here. This trade does not satisfy the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.
The trade as Ziller proposed would be completed after the moratorium
The Kings can make this trade because they’re under the cap. Though I suspect Hawes would need to be included anyway.
Donté at the 2 and Handling the Ball
If I learned anything from last season, it is:
Donté + handling the ball = turnover
by #12Pick...who? on Jun 16, 2010 12:07 PM PDT reply actions
We should have sent C-Webb
then the kings would have gotten the 1st pick.. or at least top 3.
let's re-sign him, then send him
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
This trade only makes sense to me
if the Kings are as desperate about moving Noc as Noc. His current salary is not hamstringing the Kings this year or next, and there seems to be at least the remote potential for a buyot. So I don’t see why the Kings would give up two draft slots to make this deal.
Now, if you think that you can turn Prince into a mid to late 1st round pick at the trade deadline, and if you think that you’re going to be as happy with the player that you pick at 7 as the player you would have picked at 5, I suppose there is little reason not to make the deal.
Interesting times.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jun 16, 2010 12:27 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Or they just aren't sold on Cousins long term
Ya, he’s the better player today and commands the most value at #5 pick, however looking long term do you really want to count on a near 300lbs 19 year old who couldn’t even drop a few pounds this summer to improve his draft stock?
Micheal Redd...........
Kings get- Redd, Bell, 15th pick
Bucks get- Noc, Garcia
Both teams win in this trade. We get 2 expiring contracts & rid ourselves of Noc & Garcia. They get about 7 mil in extra cap space, which they could use in free. Also Salmons may not resign, so they would have Garcia.
Draft:
5th- Demarcus Cousins
15th- Xavier Henry/Avery Bradley/Eric Bledsoe
33rd- Jordan Crawford/Armon Johnson/Ryan Thompson/Jarvis Varnado
KINGS WILL BE 10-11 CHAMPIONS
do the salaries even match up??
and where do the bucks win on this trade?? why would they give up the 15 pick?
Not even close for salaries 13 million for 20 million..And just remember with Redd, hes got a player option so he cant be traded until after July 1st if i am remembering correctly
Judgment day is coming!
I was counting on our cap-space........
which wont kick in till after july 1st. They pick who we want at the 15th pick, then the deal would go down a week later.
KINGS WILL BE 10-11 CHAMPIONS
i want to start out by saying that ive been a kings fan since the old arco days...
At USC we're not snobs, we're just better than you.
Trading the pick IMO is a terrible idea unless it's just a complete no-brainer
Meaning we rape and pillage the value away from our trading partner…
I’d much rather take my shot at one of Johnson, Cousins and Monroe. They round out what I consider the top 6 a sure-fire 6 player draft.
Unless I have a guarantee that GS or whoever owns the #6 spot doesn’t take Monroe, then is the only time I consider the pick. In fact, I’d wait to do any deals until AFTER the Pistons have secured Monroe. If we were to deal.
To me, for the Kings, it’s really between Cousins or Monroe. If we can get Prince and Monroe then that’s cool, if not I’d rather have Cousins or Monroe(if Cousins is off the board) at #5
by Smills9133 on Jun 16, 2010 12:39 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't think this is a 6 player draft but you make a valid point.
We have no idea who the W’s will take at #6 so in essence, the Kings could potentially be giving up the chance at Cousins and Monroe, plus 4.6 million in capspace this season for Prince (and the loss of Noc).
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
The Kings need Veterans,
and if it means cutting 5-10 minutes from eiher Donte or Omri, i’m all for it.
Where does the other 20-25 minute come from?
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
thats my point, playing donte or omri 20-25 min. a game doesn’t stunt their growth, they need veteran ledership around them. The kings wont get anywhere near sniffing the playoffs if year after year, they open the season with a bunch of 2 to 3 year players on the roster..
Prince is a 30-35 minute a game player.
Where do those minutes come from?
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
Why?
There’s no law that says Prince has to play 30-35 minutes per game. If he’s on a young, rebuilding team he’d better get ready for 20 to 25 minutes per.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
So we create another Noc? ; )
If the Kings deal for him, it will be to play somewhere around 30 minutes a game. If the Kings think that Casspi or Greene can play 20+ minutes a game at the 2, this still limits one of these guys to approximately 20 minutes and the other to 18 minutes. Where does this put Garcia, Beno or a new back-up point guard?
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
The reality is
There’s always injuries to deal with.
Honestly, I think both Donté and Casspi would be fine with another season of development in the 20 minute per game range.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Once a year, in foreign papers.
He should be crucified. Noc didn’t sign a contract with the Sacramento Kings. His trade here, although completely part of the business, was not his choice. The coaching decision to go young and start Casspi or Greene was not his choice. He didn’t just talk about this in the papers either but also, he went to the organization and asked to be traded which is well within his rights.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
Exactly JJ.
I just don’t see how this helps us enough to justify moving down two spots in the draft. Noc or Prince? Yes Prince is a bit better, but this is still a lateral move. If we are going to trade away our #5 it better be for something substantial.
"The Kings have nothing to lose but their games."
What up with the 76ers?
Why not trade Samuel Dalembert, Jrue Holiday, and maybe Thaddeus Young. And we give them the 5th overall pick. I know we would be giving up D. Cousins or Monroe but we get our Defensive minded big man (Dalembert). And i’m sure a Contending team would love to get their hands on Holiday so we package him with Noc? Maybe get a pick and a expiring contract or 2.
Starters: Dalembert, JT, Greene, Udka, Reke
Bench: Hawes, Laundry, Casspi, Garcia, Beno
- JT can focus on scoring and rebounding, while Dalembert just focuses on Rebound and Blocking shots.
- Hawes can run around the 15 foot mark and Laundry can focus on scoring down low.
- Greene Udka will Open up the lanes for Reke to get to the rack and get dump offs to Dalembert
- Beno, Hawes and Casspi play well off each other with the creative passing
Already took the 76ers poo-poo platter for #4 once.
At least we got to dump some salary in the process. I don’t see how relieving the 76ers of contract mistakes while giving them a 2nd high draft pick to move forward is good for the Kings.
Contract Mistakes?
Dalembert is a good defensive player and Holiday would be great off the bench for the C’s or the Spurs…or Hell start for the Lakers
by shadowchicken on Jun 16, 2010 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Neither
Could Jennings….He couldn’t get off the bench….
by shadowchicken on Jun 16, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I would take him for Hawes if the draft goes well.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
Sign me up for that one
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Small forward is the last position we need to shore up.
We either need big bruisers or a backcourt mate for Tyreke.
Prince is neither.
Pass.
StR Token Female
by LeaguePassAddict on Jun 16, 2010 1:48 PM PDT reply actions
That was simple enough.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
I'm really very simple.
Wait. That’s not what I meant.
StR Token Female
by LeaguePassAddict on Jun 16, 2010 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
That's like saying "I'm cute".
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
I think we missed on that...
That’s like when someone tries to set you up with someone and when you ask what they look like, they say “she’s cute” which usually means something entirely different than cute.
You can find me on the first StR photo if you want to know if I’m cute of not : )
I won’t tell Savage Beast.
Truth is, on talent alone, and nothing else, I’d rank DMC 1st.
PookeyGuru- June 1, 2010.
I've already emailed, texted, called, IM'd and Twittered SB
/Narc
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
He actually does all those.
StR Token Female
by LeaguePassAddict on Jun 16, 2010 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Funny story here
We were in the car a few weeks ago with my wife’s assistant who was telling us that she had been trying to set up a friend of hers with a guy she knew but had had no luck.
She then went on to say that she didn’t know why the guy wouldn’t blind date with her friend who she had told him was ‘very cool, very homely’.
I turned to her and said ’ you described her as homely?’ ‘No wonder’
She looked confused and I advised her to look it up and beware of using words you don’t know the meaning of.
Which brings me to irony – (never mind!).
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jun 16, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly.
The last thing we need is an old SF who I dont think will even be as productive as Omri or Donte next year. I would be pissed if we traded down for Prince. But to do that Petrie would have to be retarded and Im fairly confident he is not.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
We already have an old SF who won't be as productive as Omri or Donte
And do you really think Nocioni is riding the pine for 82 games next year and won’t get any time? Why not get a better player and teammate?
by nbrans on Jun 16, 2010 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure
If its a straight up trade. Swapping picks? Hell no.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
So
We go down two picks to get a guy who should play like ten minutes a game? Id stand pat and take Cousins if he is there. Even if he isnt this trade is a lateral move at best.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I mean, I think it goes without saying
That the main reason Petrie would consider this was because he likes the player(s) at #7 as much as at #5, or at least he likes them close enough to use moving back to the Kings’ advantage. And if that’s the case I really can’t see why so many people are completely opposed to this.
Well
Because you are going 5 to 7 and not getting anything back in return really. I dont know why anyone would be excited by it.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I think
We are hoping for big improvements and this doesnt get you there. It just seems rather pointless
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Yep
Or else why do it? The 5th pick is expotentially more valuable then 7th. Buying Noc out instead of taking on Prince who we dont need or have room for also makes more sense for us. I dont know why you make a trade where it doesnt improve your team and gives you less drafting flexability.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
What does this trade get us?
Worse than nothing, we go down two picks. It would be better to buy Noce out if you want to get rid of him that bad.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Agree with nbrans
Check out the Pistons perspective from this link:
http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/06/trade-idea-trading-up-two-spots-to-get-demarcus-cousins/
Really?
So for a trade that makes almost no improvement at all on our team you think we should give more? If this is the best offer a team is gonna make to move up for Cousins I say keep the pick. (Which is what I want anyway). Id rather buy Noc out then make this trade, a buy out would make much more sense.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Dear lord
Let me break this down for you:
1) Prince is a better player than Noc
2) Prince’s style of play is a better fit than Noc
3) Prince is a better teammate than Noc
4) Prince has a better contract than Noc
5) Prince is a better asset in a potential trade than Noc
6) Prince is expiring at a time when Landry needs to be extended and when the CBA is going to be negotiated
7) The only way this trade would happen is if Petrie likes the guys who are available at #7 as much or more than Cousins or whoever is available at #5
by nbrans on Jun 16, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
And let me break down my reasoning to you
Prince isnt much better than Noce.
Prince should only get 10-15 minutes a game.
We dont need him at all.
We go back two picks.
We already have a boatload of cap space.
We should get MUCH better trade offers if we dont want to draft Cousins.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
And there is my main point
If we are gonna trade the 5 we should get much higher value. This trade doesnt improve us at all.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
And we could probably buy out Noce for less than Prince is owed . . .
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jun 16, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
yea
they were talkin at half his salary remaining which i believe would be around 5-6 mil.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Buying out is stupid
Prince expires next season. Even if you buy Noc out the amount is spread over two seasons.
We dont need Prince.
So then if you really wanna get rid of Noce buy him out. Its alot cheaper than takin on 11 mil and losing two spots in draft. If Cousins is available at 5 and GP doesnt want him we will probably get much better offers than Prince and the 7th.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions
why is that important nbrans?
So? Do we need that whole 25 mil clear the year after next? I don’t see us spending it that soon.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jun 16, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
It's not the year after next
Prince expires next year. And yeah, with Landry possibly getting re-upped and with the CBA being renegotiated that’s a big deal.
Well
What do you see Landry getting? I would say around 7-8?
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I disagree
The year after next there will be a way to free up a little more money if we nneded to.
I don’t see us needing to myself. I just think the times of $20 mil FA is about over and doubt that Sac especially will indulge.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jun 16, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
This is such an unreal discussion
We’re talking about trading back two spots to get the guy Petrie would have drafted anyway, getting rid of Noc and his contract, and getting a much better player. WTF is complicated about this?
I mean, when someone offers you money on the street do you turn it down because hey, people offer you money all the time! You can get that money anytime.
Well like I said
1 I dont think Prince is way better player, I think he will ride the pine just like Noce while Donte and Omri eat up the minutes, and until that 7 pick comes around we dont know if who Petrie wants will still be there.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Who cares if he rides the pine???
He has a better contract!! And for the millionth time, the only reason Petrie would do this is if he’s confident his guy would be there at #7
Don't forget the cost of
confusing the shit out of your rebuilding plan.
Prince affexts that negatively IMO and as I said elsewhere, I think we could do a lot better if we wanted to move down.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jun 16, 2010 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions
the c is too close to the x
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jun 16, 2010 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think there would be a much better deal trading down
I think we’d all much rather have Petrie drafting #7 than anything lower than that. The only possibly better deal would be trading out completely.
Getting rid of Noc and getting the draft pick Petrie would have taken anyway is pretty tough to beat.
What if Cousins is the guy they want and he's available at #5?
Is this assuming that doesn’t happen?
Nevertheless, I think we could get a better deal than taking on Prince to move Back a few spots.
It was a rumour, that’s all, that’s why we’re talking so much about it.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jun 16, 2010 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Well again it gets into the rub mentioned above
If the Kings trade the #5 pick it means they don’t think the guy at #5 is that much more valuable than the guy at #7 despite your contrary opinion.
Sure
Maybe the player may not have more value, or the guy GP wants could still be around at 7, but the 5th pick is more value than Prince and the 7th, in my opinion anyway
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I mean
Why drop 2 spots unless you get something of value in return? Prince wont make much a difference on our team at all.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Let's try this again
Let me break this down for you:
1) Prince is a better player than Noc
2) Prince’s style of play is a better fit than Noc
3) Prince is a better teammate than Noc
4) Prince has a better contract than Noc
5) Prince is a better asset in a potential trade than Noc
6) Prince is expiring at a time when Landry needs to be extended and when the CBA is going to be negotiated
7) The only way this trade would happen is if Petrie likes the guys who are available at #7 as much or more than Cousins or whoever is available at #5
Who cares
If he is a slightly better player? He wont start and will ride the pine! And so you are willing to trade 5th pick for 7th and Prince. I get it. I wouldnt even consider trading the 5th pick for a player we dont need will avg 15 min and a lower draft pick. Thats just me.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I care
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Yeah
Who cares if we get the guy Petrie wants at #7 instead of at #5, clear Noc’s salary in the process, and get a better player than Noc?
Who cares indeed?
Well even
using that logic you have to make that trade after the 7th pick to make sure the guy you want is still there. And again my biggest thing is that I think the pick has more value than that.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions
And I
Think the better player thing is a little much. Stats are pretty close considering Prince got way more PT. We dont have a need at all for either of them.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually
The pace adjusted stats aren’t close at all. Prince is a significantly better player than Nocioni.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Really?
I just did a quick gander at the link and saw TP avg 5 pts more a game with similar steals and blocks and assumed he got like ten min more a game than Noce, so you know what they say about assumption.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually
I just checked again and Im really surprised if thats true, but again that would be on me assuming TP avg over 30 min and Noce around 15 which may not be true.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's how it works
Kings decide they like both Monroe and Whiteside more than Cousins. Pistons want to draft Cousins at #5. Kings know that one of Monroe or Whiteside will be available at #7 no matter what happens at #6.
ERGO they trade back two spots and clear Noc’s deal.
You think the #5 is worth more. I get that. But you’re not giving up the #5 and only the #5. Geoff has the ability to trade out completely if he wants.
Once again, this time with feeling, this trade only happens if Geoff wants to stay in the draft and thinks he can get his guy at #7.
Right
But what if you have a major preference from Monroe or Whiteside why not pick them at 5 and you know you get them? My thing is if your gonna trade the 5 get more for it or just get your guy. We dont have any need for Prince at all in my opinion and if we really wanna get rid of Noce we can buy him out and save more money.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you might be overvaluing
A difference of two spots in this particular draft.
And to quote TZ about the buyout (of which there’s no guarantee it would happen):
That leaves the buy-out, which would entail Nocioni giving up a substantial sum of future salary for the opportunity to sign elsewhere. It sounds good on paper, but getting players to relinquish cash is easier said than done. And really, to make it worth Sacramento’s while, Nocioni needs to give up at least half his salary. He’s owed $13.5 million over two seasons. When you consider Nocioni can be traded but his salary couldn’t be in the event there’s a buy-out, couple with the obvious fact that Nocioni’s production (however middling and apparently superfluous) would be unavailable in the case of a buy-out … it’s not like the Kings can take a couple million in cash savings and cut him loose.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Well yea
I think you only do a buy out at 50 percent. Otherwise he can sit on the bench. Production wise I dont think we get anything real out of Noce or Prince anyway, so either way im seeing an unhappy vet.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
And on a different subject
Who is the guy talking about Matt Cain in your tagline?
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions
heh
It’s actually a paraphrase I stole…err…borrowed from the movie “Searching for Bobby Fischer”. I just subbed in Matt Cain’s name in a few spots. ;)
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Lol
Giants have needed hitters for awhile now but thats for another page…….
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions
We do have a need for Prince
Zach Harper of Cowbell Kingdom:
The Kings have two missions in retooling the roster this summer: 1) get better defensively and 2) cut long-term salary for the upcoming Collective Bargaining Agreement. This trade seems to solve both of these issues in one fell swoop and it’s almost too easy.
Tayshaun Prince seems to be the perfect mentor for guys like Donté Greene and Omri Casspi. A year under his tutelage could be invaluable. With the strides Donté Greene made between his rookie and sophomore years, being shown the ropes by Prince could help him go from very good role player to 10-year starter. For Omri, Prince could help curb some of the confidence in practice every day and make him learn how to be creative and crafty in the way he attacks the best defenders in the league.
Also, having his expiring contract at the trade deadline when contenders will be looking for a dynamic defender to complete their championship run could be even more valuable. With the year of contract lopped off the future, the Kings would get maximum roster flexibility. It would put the Kings nearly $30 million under the cap heading into the potential lockout and allow them to go on a deadline spending spree or a free agency spending spree once the CBA is hammered out.
You newbies need to learn how to link I swear
Here is Harpers’ link and the link to Piston Powered & Dan Feldman.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Thanks for the link to the Piston blog
Interesting analysis, to say the least.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
It doesn't hold up IMO
But that’s just my opinion. I haven’t heard the Kings have desire to cut long term salary when the whole team is rookies and Cisco/Beno/Noc on veteran contracts at the moment. None of them is making more than 7 million dollars for the next several years.
I doubt the Kings are in serious cost cutting mode myself.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I don't think the dollars are that huge in this deal
But it does move a disgruntled player out and bring a solid veteran type player in.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
That is true
But who is to say TP is gonna be a great sport riding the pine for a non play off team developing their young players?
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Nobody knows
Who knows if he’ll be an amazing mentor to these young guys and be a key part of getting this team to playoff caliber? Nobody knows anything for sure.
I’d rather take my chances with Prince than a guy that consistently indicates he doesn’t want to be here.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Prince is a low risk high reward option for this team.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Im obviously in the minority
But I just dont see the high reward at all.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I gotta write about this. LOL
Writing Mode: Go! (It’s about time I got off my duff and wrote something.)
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Totally.
But I guess im just of the opinion to try to buy Noce out. With Garcia, Omri, Donte I think we have plenty at the 3 spot. I dont think we need to take anyone back unless its major upgrade.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I see Cisco as more of a backup G type.
And am willing to play him there long term.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Yea thats true
But then at two and three we have Omri Green Garcia and Beno. I dont see the need for Prince or how it benefits us, which is why I would just buy out Noce if I could.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I see Donte as more of a 3/4 guy.
Omri too.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Yea I think they have both
shown they can play around the basket some. But knowing you dont like Cousins, would you rather have Prince than him?
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Yep.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
It's not the dollars
It’s the upgrade at the positions they need. Prince isn’t a real upgrade unless they decide to move Donte to 4. Which, is, not beyond the realm of possibility I suppose.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
That's the rub to this whole thing IMO as well
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
I've always thought that this was a possibility.
So I shouldn’t rule it out when it comes to trading down a couple spots and picking up whomever at 7.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
My thing is
I want Cousins, but if Petrie doesnt I have no problem trading down, I guess I just think we should get more for the 5 than other people do.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't want Cousins myself. And am willing to go another way
But like almost all things Kings, this will come down to Geoff Petrie and the decision he decides upon.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I agree
I think they have cut back already and now they are looking for right place to capitalize where they can.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
I think some of the disagreement here is based on a distaste for the Kings moving from the #5 to #7, rather than disliking Prince.
But that’s a completely different argument.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Yea
I dont dislike Prince, I just dont think he holds any value to our team. And thats just my opinion.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Not just yours.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jun 16, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Whew
Was feeling like a man on an island!
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I think he's a net negative myself
We need to find out if Omri/Donte’ can be a starter in this league and taking on Prince is no way to do that.
We’re rebuilding, not reloading.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jun 16, 2010 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree
I think we would be going back two spots to get a guy who gets 10-15 min a game.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
This is where I'm at as well
We don’t need a lateral movement that’s going to ‘block’ the development of some key pieces. We have to know soon if these guys are the future. Can’t keep delaying that
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
dear lord part II
Prince has been a starter on a championship quality team for 5 years, and is better in all phases of the game than Noc … it’s hard to argue that he’s not a better play.
And if Kings trade for him, he will play 35min/game, not 10-15. And Donte and Omri will have to find minutes at other positions, like 2 and 4.
Well
That’s really the debate isn’t it? I would much rather have Tayshaun Prince on the team than Andres Nocioni. But that’s my personal preference.
It might be a lateral move ultimately, but if Petrie’s able to get the guy he really wants at #7, why not?
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
I would
Rather have Prince riding the pine than Noce too, but i just cant wrap my head around trading the 5th pick for a player you dont need and a lower draft pick. I mean the 5th pick has more value than that in my opinion.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
What's hard to wrap your head around?
If Petrie feels he can get the guy he wants at #7, and is able to get rid of Nocioni at the same time, it’s pretty straightforward isn’t it?
I like Prince better as a player and a person, and think he would be a fine influence on the younger players (and wouldn’t be on his own program on the court, as it seemed Nocioni was last season).
Ultimately, it’s not a huge deal either way…but if it is an upgrade (albeit small), why not take it?
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
I can wrap my head around it
I dont share the opinion that Prince brings anything to the team and if you really wanna get rid of Noce then buying him out is cheapest. My thing is I think our team would be better off without either of them and I percieve the 5th pick to hold more value than a slight upgrade. So I understand exactly what you guys are saying I just strongly disagree.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions
If we overlook
the overall superiority of Prince, still he has a better contract. I would take that contract for Noc even if it was Van Horn or Mobley and not Prince.
If we take Prince and dont like him, we can still let him expire on the bench.
True
And I would agree if it was straight up trade. But to move down two spots for a guy who is gonna ride the pine is what I disagree with. I personally would buy Noce out for half his salary if he agrees instead of taking another vet and sittin him on bench.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Problem is
I don’t think Nocioni’s going to take half his salary. He wants out, but I’m not sure he wants out that bad.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
And even if he does take the 1/2 buyout
(which I agree with otis he probably wouldn’t), it doesn’t expire in 2011 like Prince does.
I dont think thats a big deal.
We have lots of cap space as is. Noce put himself into this bind by talking. He has little to no value to us or in trade so he can take his half buy out or get 82 DNPs for all I care.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions
It is a big deal
$4 million can be the difference between signing a pretty good player and a max player. Especially considering that player salaries are probably going to come down in the new CBA.
I dont think Kings will sign anyone
To anything near a max deal. I would be pleasantly shocked if the Kings needed an extra 4 mil to chase free agents. But with Prince making 5 or so more mil than Noce next year that really wouldnt make much of a difference right? If you can get a half price buyout than your lookin at about 3.5 a year which would save over 7 mil in cap space then taking on Prince. But like I said, I dont think we are gonna get one of the max or even near max players which makes it kinda moot point.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Well true.
But I would still be pleasantly surprised if A: top free agents were willing to come in 2011, B: the Kings decided to loosen the purse strings to get em.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
There are ways to clear up a mil or two down the road if needed.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jun 16, 2010 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions
And there might be a way to do it now
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Like trading back two spots in the draft to get the guy Petrie was going to draft anyway?
Sure, we can do that any time.
We dont know
That that guy will still be there. And you think this is the best thing we can do with our 5 pick?
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Well that's the basis for the whole debate
If Petrie doesn’t think the guy he wants will be there at the #7 spot, there’s no deal to discuss…right?
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Badger! Badger!
Am I doing it right?
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Badger to water?
Eh, badgers are ok, but I prefer horses. Lots of them :)
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Mushroom Mushroom!
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
It seems pretty risky
Unless you wait until 7 is on the board. Cause if Petrie’s guy is gone we traded the 5 for a older player who rides the pine.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Deal will be contingent on our guy
being there at 7 or we keep Cousins. That being said, I think this deal is a no go.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
We're looking to replace Noce,
not OmTe (DoMri?). For the record, I’m in favor of keeping Cousins at the five if available.
by basketball galactica on Jun 16, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
What makes me "worried" is just
the fact that Petrie is thinking about trading the pick. It shows that he’s not a great supporter of DMC no matter the 78% or whatever.
If he is
It seems the moves Petrie makes usually arent broadcast this loudly
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
First Ziller article that I think was a waste of time....
Detroit has to be looking at the #4 pick for Cousins. As I have brought up in a couple of other threads, I see Minnesota trading the #4 to Detroit for #7 and Prince. Detroit drafts Cousins. Minnesota can play Prince at the SF (while his $11 mil contract expires) and go after another big man at #7. Next, Minnesota can go after a SG with their next pick (I think its #16) and then draft the best available player for their bench with their remaining picks.
This trade benefits both teams. I cannot believe it isn’t on the table, but Minnesota is probably waiting to see if another team offers more
Nobody is taking on Prince as part of a draft trade
not in the top 5 anyway. He is not Garnet or Allen.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jun 16, 2010 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree...this deal is like get $1 in exchange for 99 cents
You don’t trade down for this deal…there will be better offers than this.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
by ElRonToro on Jun 16, 2010 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
There has to be
Or I keep the pick. I thought this was obviously wack but a lot of people disagree with me
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I've learned that a lot of people are often wrong.
(I want to note this is the spot where I refrained from an inappropriate leftist political comment (warnings do have an effect)).
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Again
I’m not sure you’re viewing this through the lens of “Geoff Petrie thinks he can get his man at #7”. I think you’re viewing it through the lens of “The #5 could be DeMarcus Cousins”.
In the fantasyland that makes up this debate, Geoff Petrie feels that Greg Monroe/Hassan Whiteside/Whatever player he covets is preferable to Cousins in his rebuild.
If all those things are true (again, in our Fantasyland debate)…why not move down and get the guy you want, move a malingerer, and save some cash in the process?
I think it’s obviously wack that anyone wouldn’t do that in the same situation.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
I guess the main thing bothering me
Is I think the 5 would have more value. Otherwise if you can get your man at 7 and replace a pine rider with a better pine rider with a better contract you do it.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Dee-fense, value & leadership
the reason GP might be leaning towards Whiteside or Monroe is the fact that both have the potential to be awesome on the D end and don’t appear to be head cases … #7 is better value spot for either of those 2 guys. And dumping Noc for Prince is a huge benefit in several ways, including leadership, D and obtaining a vet winner, instead of a whining loser. And the #7 has lower salary slot than 5.
So again, as many have rightfully said, if GP isn’t sold on the consensus BPA at #5, then trade down for the best value …. but you can’t go so low that you miss out on the guy you want.
Monroe is not a defensive force
Umm... I thought we were officially referring to Voison as the Chick Replacing Amick at the Paper? or CRAP, for short.
by sac_faithful on Jun 16, 2010 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd say it's getting $1 in exchange for about 70 cents
And that 70 cents has the swine flu attached.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
A waste of time that spawns almost 400 comments?
I respectfully disagree.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Everyone knows how to run StR all of a sudden 214. You should take the summer off and let them run it since it's clear you & TZ are over your head.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I respect your respectful disagreement
but it doesn’t change my opinion. And all the posts come from fans who don’t have anything else to write/read during the last week prior to the draft. Nothing is going to be “put in stone” until draft day when all the draft picks start to be announced.
So basically we have just pointless articles to review until the night of the 24th.
Really?
We won’t know anything for sure until it actually happens? Damn!
If you ask nice, I’m sure TZ and Section will quit forcing you to read these “pointless” articles.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
So many comments and nearly all the same things repeated over and over again
Screw you Knicks! LBJ to the Kings!!!
amen to that
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
and thirdly
Why trade the #5 pick for a slightly better pine-rider who will just screw up our rebuilding when there must be better offers and we could just buy-out Noce who has a terrible attitude?
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Hang on a second
You agree with Shizzo that things are repeated over and over again…and then you ask that question?
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Im guessing
He was being sarcastic?
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Man I hope so
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
I was. I was holding down the key the whole time.
Also, I tend to take the nbrans/otis side of this, fwiw.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
should read "holding down the snark key"
computer swallowed my snark once I put it within less than/greater than signs.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
So many comments and nearly all the same things repeated over and over again
Screw you Knicks! LBJ to the Kings!!!
I found it to be a rather interesting thread
On behalf of StR, our apologies that it was not up to your exacting standards.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Maybe you should close it
It’s forcing people to go in and read it.
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
I think Shizzo was just joking
by repeating his own comment over and over.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
I'm sure he was holding down the key the whole time
Don't say stupid shit. You won’t be perceived as stupid. - pookeyguru
by Kfan in Korea on Jun 16, 2010 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions
should read "holding down the snark key"
computer swallowed my snark once I put it within less than/greater than signs.
Don't say stupid shit. You won’t be perceived as stupid. - pookeyguru
by Kfan in Korea on Jun 16, 2010 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions
man I've had alot of deja vu in this thread
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 11:20 PM PDT up reply actions
So many comments and nearly all the same things repeated over and over again
Screw you Knicks! LBJ to the Kings!!!
amen to that
Don't say stupid shit. You won’t be perceived as stupid. - pookeyguru
by Kfan in Korea on Jun 17, 2010 7:29 AM PDT up reply actions
anybody hear about this Tay Prince rumor?
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Why Prince. We should go for Stucky!
Don't say stupid shit. You won’t be perceived as stupid. - pookeyguru
by Kfan in Korea on Jun 17, 2010 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions
lol
I saw what you did there
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 17, 2010 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Well
I get the point I just hope we can come out of draft with a better deal.
LaMarcus Aldridge is the most over rated and over paid player in NBA. Tyreke Evans will be better than Brandon Roy this year.
by KingsFanInPortland on Jun 16, 2010 10:00 PM PDT reply actions
If, by the end of this thread, the Cavs don;t sign and trade LBJ to us for...
Noce, Brockness and the #5, all or arguing and posturings would have failed. Nuff said. Hehehe.
There can only be one Noce!
I would rather trade
Nocioni and the #5 to Minnesota for Kevin Love, Ryan Gomes and the #16. We could snag Whiteside or somebody with the later pick and still have a vet SF that the team seems to want.
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