Is Dalembert getting worse?
by Ellimist on Jun 18, 2010 2:07 AM PDT
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PrintThrough all the hoopla involving the trade for Samuel Dalembert, there have been both positive and negative things said about him. He is a good defender. He's athletic. He's stupid. He can rebound. He doesn't know his limits. He's a great person. One of the things that got me thinking is the claim that his production has trailed off a little bit over the last few seasons. Looking at his numbers from last season, its easy to see what people mean since his average has somewhat decreased over the last few seasons. However, I was somewhat impressed that he was able to amass 8.1 PPG and 9.6 RBG in just about 26 minutes per game. I thought that if this is him regressing, then what was his true production like before? His best statistical season came in the 07-08 season when he averaged a double double with 10.5 PPG, 10.4 RPG, and 2.3 BPG. He has averaged less in those categories in the last 2 seasons.
When hearing the interviews with his agent Marc Cornstein and Dalembert himself, they both said that the reason his numbers regressed and the inconsistency he has shown is more the result of his inconsistent minutes, among other things. At first I thought that this is just them making excuses, so I decided to check the numbers out (something I am admittedly not used to doing). I went to basketball-reference.com and looked up his per-36 minute numbers. What I found was interesting:
Per 36 Minutes
| Season | Tm | Lg | G | GS | MP | FG | FGA | FG% | 3P | 3PA | 3P% | FT | FTA | FT% | ORB | DRB | TRB | AST | STL | BLK | TOV | PF | PTS | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2001-02 | PHI | NBA | 34 | 0 | 178 | 4.4 | 10.1 | .440 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 1.4 | 3.6 | .389 | 5.1 | 8.7 | 13.8 | 1.0 | 1.2 | 2.6 | 2.8 | 6.1 | 10.3 | ||
| 2003-04 | PHI | NBA | 82 | 53 | 2198 | 4.4 | 8.2 | .541 | 0.0 | 0.0 | .000 | 1.8 | 2.8 | .644 | 3.2 | 7.1 | 10.3 | 0.3 | 0.7 | 3.1 | 1.4 | 4.5 | 10.7 | |
| 2004-05 | PHI | NBA | 72 | 60 | 1785 | 5.0 | 9.6 | .524 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 1.8 | 3.0 | .601 | 3.8 | 7.2 | 10.9 | 0.7 | 0.9 | 2.4 | 2.3 | 4.9 | 11.9 | ||
| 2005-06 | PHI | NBA | 66 | 52 | 1760 | 4.0 | 7.5 | .531 | 0.0 | 0.0 | .000 | 1.9 | 2.7 | .705 | 3.3 | 7.8 | 11.1 | 0.5 | 0.7 | 3.3 | 2.2 | 5.0 | 9.9 | |
| 2006-07 | PHI | NBA | 82 | 82 | 2535 | 5.1 | 9.3 | .541 | 0.0 | 0.0 | .000 | 2.4 | 3.2 | .746 | 3.4 | 7.0 | 10.4 | 0.9 | 0.7 | 2.3 | 2.3 | 4.1 | 12.5 | |
| 2007-08 | PHI | NBA | 82 | 82 | 2724 | 4.5 | 8.7 | .513 | 0.0 | 0.0 | .000 | 2.5 | 3.5 | .707 | 4.0 | 7.2 | 11.2 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 2.5 | 2.0 | 3.6 | 11.4 | |
| 2008-09 | PHI | NBA | 82 | 82 | 2036 | 3.8 | 7.7 | .498 | 0.0 | 0.0 | .000 | 1.6 | 2.2 | .734 | 3.8 | 8.6 | 12.4 | 0.3 | 0.6 | 2.6 | 2.1 | 4.4 | 9.2 | |
| 2009-10 | PHI | NBA | 82 | 80 | 2124 | 4.8 | 8.9 | .545 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 1.6 | 2.3 | .729 | 4.1 | 9.2 | 13.3 | 1.1 | 0.7 | 2.6 | 2.1 | 4.3 | 11.3 |
A couple things stand out here. First, his defensive rebounding rate has increased in each of his years in the league, which stands out since he has been in the league for 8 years. His block rate has remained almost identical for the last 3 seasons. Although his PPG averages are sporadic throughout the 2nd half of his career, with the exception of 08-09, he has remained fairly consistent in that area. Looking at his scoring, his PPG seem to be dependent on his FGA per game. For example, his highest FGA year was the 06-07 season, in which he averaged about 1.34 points per shot. The next season, he averaged 1.31 points per shot. The following season, (his worst statistically in the 2nd half of his career) his points per shot average dipped to 1.19. However, last season, he came back up to 1.27 points per shot. This seems to show more or less that Dalembert is somewhat consistent with his offensive production when comparing entire seasons.
There are a couple things to mention when looking at this data. First is the fact that although Dalembert has not regressed as a player, he still hasn't improved much in the last 4 years or so. This was one of the complaints some people had of him. Although his rebounding rate increased by almost a whole rebound this last year, I think if he received more minutes the rate would regress to the mean. All in all, this shows that as long as Dalembert gets minutes, he will still produce for you. And it could be the case that if he gets more minutes, he could produce more.
This is not to say that he is consistent from game to game…I just glanced over his game logs and while they looked pretty normal, they can hardly tell the whole story. I personally think he will have a career year here, and help us win more games than we have in a few years.
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
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Good way to address a concern
I agree with your points. I think he will stay a solid contributor, and will not improve very much either.
Dunking Dutchman
Nice post Ellimist
I think at this point in his career, he is what he is. Good rebounder and defender…limited offensively. I think it’s a nice experiment to see if this kind of player will work in Westphal/Petrie’s system.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Him being limited offensively won't matter much
As long as he can rebound, box out, defend, block…all of the defenseive stuff, that’s all that really matters. I think that’s why the Office pulled the trigger on the trade.
He’s gonna have to score a little bit, but if Tyreke Evans and the rest of the team pick up the scoring, it’ll be alright.
Chris Andersen could be in a porno with his 'stache. Too bad he still wouldn't know how to box out.
Quitter's Proud United Member #11
Nice post
I also do not expect much improvement from SD, but who cares? He was traded for what he can do not for what he is going to do.
Look, the Kings score 100 points per game but give up over 104. Time and time again we saw opponents have free reign over the paint routinely driving to the hole uncontested or kicking it out for easy shots due to a necessitated rotation into the lane to stop a layup.
Dalembert will absolutely make opponents think twice about casually entering the paint and should, as a consequence, improve our close-out defense as players should be out of position less often. I expect a significant increase in our defensive ability and it should translate to 4-5 more wins based on that fact alone. We could very well even become a mediocre team!! (and that’s improvement baby!!!)
Don't worry about Daly's form
As you saw his numbers fell in the 08-09 season and then he improved again. The reason behind this was the coach every given time. He had him in and out of the rotation. He’s been a victim of rotation changes for many years, that’s why he averages so “few” minutes for a starting center. He was never fully trusted as a starting C. I’m not saying he should, but he’s definitely not getting worse.
His Offense
As long as he can rebound and tip in or dunk teammates misses thats all we as Kings fans should care about right? Wouldn’t he by his skill as a rebounder and shot blocker make his teammates better as they can work on guarding there man and not have to worry about not getting help from Big Sam, unlike Spencer who was well a bit inconsistent in that area
Inconsistent numbers could be a product of becoming disenheartened with his team
We’ve seen the same thing with Bibby, Miller, etc… I am also kind of thinking that maybe Turkoglu could fit into this category in Toronto, even though after only one season it’s kind of a stretch.
...
by prowseinthehouse on Jun 18, 2010 10:15 AM PDT reply actions
Great post
But if Sammy is worried about inconsistent minutes… Coach Westphal may not be the best guy to play for, just ask Hawes!
Although Westphal seemed to give Reke and Landry both consistent minutes, something I would expect him to do for Dalembert as well.
The NBA: "Where 27 free throws happens"
They are bringing him in to fill a roll he has already shown he is capable of filling.
They aren’t setting him up for disappointment so I can see him keeping steady minutes with the team. They aren’t trading him to ask him to do stuff he can’t do.
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 18, 2010 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
A lot of good information here
And what’s more, presented simply enough for me to understand, which is a big deal.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.
What happened here??
Got on a plane to Alaska for a vacation, finally got a chance to check StR, and find Samuel Dalembert traded for Noc and Hawes. This is cool. I didn’t even know trades could happen until July. I hope Sammy D can be the inside presence we need. Does this mean we draft Johnson and not a big?
We traded a big for a big.
I don’t get why people thinks this means we’re going to look at the draft differently.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
by Aykis16 on Jun 18, 2010 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Reason
why the Kings MIGHT look at the draft differently is because Dalembert is a strong player and a legit defensive center. Hawes still has potential, but was a long way from being that type of player. The frontcourt all of a sudden became more balanced with this addition. So if the Kings feel that the team is balanced with JT, Dalembert, Landry, and Brockman (needs to be signed) then they might go BPA and draft Johnson. Last I checked there was still some concern at SG.
That being said I’m still hoping that we get either DMC or Favors. Having that much talent and potential up front is exciting. The Kings will have the chance at being top 5 in the league in rebounding.
But
Dalembert is in the last year of his contract, as was Hawes.
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Which might be the real reason behind this trade.
Assuming Dalembert resigns for what Spencer would have signed for, the Kings now have $6.6M more money now that Noc is gone, to resign Carl.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
If you draft a big, will he get to play?
There’s only 90-96 minutes a game to go around at the two big positions after taking into account occasional small ball lineups.
With JT, Landry and Dalembert already on the roster and likely to all play about 30 minutes per game, how much is someone like Cousins really going to get to play if we draft him?
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
Does it matter?
Landry and Dalembert are free agents at the end of the year. Either/both could be dealt by the trade deadline, not ot mention JT. An expiring Landry at only $3 million could fetch quite the bounty from a contending team.
Draft the best guy, regardless of position and current depth.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Especially, since we have the cap space to take back a bigger contract and a bigger name
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Continue to improve
Draft the best guy, regardless of position and current depth.
Sounds good, particularly if there is a clear divide. But I don’t think there is.
Are Derrick Favors and Demarcus Cousins the best big man prospects we will see for a while? I don’t think they are that special or will turn out to be the second coming of anyone.
If we are going to move beyond Landry at some point, I hope they find a way to pick up Kevin Love. It’s pretty unusual for a second-year player to be racking up a PER above 20 and not turn into a pretty special talent when all is said and done. But for now the C-PF trio is pretty solid, and the backups are also decent and know the system.
The Kings don’t really have the luxury of stockpiling players at positions. They’ve already done a good job of fortifying the frontline by drafting and playing Thompson and adding Dalembert and Landry and subtracting Hawes, and now they need to the same thing at the small forward position, suddenly and clearly our weakest link.
If you don’t think Johnson is going to be a solid talent, then trade the pick and improve the small forward position. Shooting guard would be the other position I would work to upgrade.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
by NewEraKings on Jun 18, 2010 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I can see Landry
Re-signing with the team with the money they will save next year from trading Noc.
And with the new CBA
I think that type of money (6-7 million per) would be good to great value for Landry. He’s a great offensive talent.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
I guess the answer would be who's better.
I’ll worry about minutes after the draft.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
It's funny how excited everyone is to have a legit defensive center, yet
the 6ers were willing to trade him for a young center that scores away from the rim, creates plays for others and wasn’t a banger in the paint. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
It might be more interesting to see who Philly adds, then any of the other top 4 teams.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Yeah I think Philly will be one of the more interesting teams next year
Not saying they will be good but they have some interesting young players on that squad.
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 19, 2010 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Good post,very clearly expressed
Dali missed Andre Miller a lot last season
by southern oregon on Jun 18, 2010 2:27 PM PDT reply actions
One thing I like
In the 20 games he played at least 30 minutes last season, he had 17 games with double-digit rebounds.
With Nocioni gone, I think you will see less small ball lineups and more of a three-man rotation with all three bigs – JT, Landry and Dalembert – playing 30-35 minutes and Brockman and May picking up the garbage/injury minutes. I think if they pick a big in the draft, there will be too big a logjam and nobody will get enough PT to be effective. Or the rookie big will play sparingly at first and then Dalembert will be dumped at the deadline.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
Actually that should read
In the 25 games he played at least 30 minutes last season, he had 21 games with double-digit rebounds. The fewest he had in such a stint was eight rebounds twice.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
The only problem is the Sixers
won only 5 of those 25 games. They were 22-35 when he played less than 30 minutes.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
Meanwhile
The Kings won seven of 11 games in which Spencer had double-digit rebounds and were 12-10 when he had eight or more. They were just 11-39 when Spencer played and had less than eight rebounds, and 2-8 when he didn’t play.
On that basis alone, it seems like Dalembert’s rebounding could help us get more wins.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
Most sixer fans stopped analyzing Sam Dalembert on his numbers years ago (much like ESPN keeps saying it’s a terrible contract, every year, without you know looking at his production).
I used to be someone who thought he was useless and over paid and then realized that in todays nba he’s at least a league average center (when you cound the total of his game) and even with his refusal to better his game in the off season he’s a an asset defensively (when he stays out of foul trouble).
I was to the point that I hoped the sixers would sign him to an extension this off season (not a big one – but like 2-3 years, 8-10 million per year)
Sam is a solid center in todays NBA and stays healthy too (which seems to be rarer with the big men these days) – he’s not going to give you double doubles – he’s going to aggravate you every game, either because he will goaltend stupidly, try to dribble (he can’t) fumble a pass (not really his fault, it’s evident he’s not the best catcher in the world so firing passes at him is a bad idea) or the 19 foot jumper he loves to take…
He’s worth what he’s paid, he’ll provide a defensive anchor in the middle for most teams in this league (and if you don’t think a defensive anchor is useful you missed game 7 without kendrick perkins), and you probably have a smarter coach than the sixers have the past couple years, sixer coaches like to let him sit at the end of games whether he is in foul trouble or not when his rebounding could make the difference between wins and losses.
Also, he’s a nice little trade chip at the deadline with no more trade kicker, I expect if petrie moves Dalembert after the 60 days, closer to the deadline, he’ll get a better package back than he gave up, as the sixers seems to be operating from a position of weakness and desperation
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 18, 2010 4:40 PM PDT reply actions 5 recs
Extended Minutes......
It seems Dalembert hasn’t really played extended minutes for whatever reason (i.e. foul trouble, mistake prone, etc.) but from a number standpoint he’s been very effective in the games that he has.
Throughout his 8 season NBA career (he missed all of 2002-03 due to injury) he’s only played 35+ minutes in 120 games. In those games he’s produced the following averages:
MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA3P% FT FTA FT% TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
38.9 5.1 9.0 56.0% 0.0 0.0 0.0% 2.4 3.3 73.4%12.0 0.8 0.6 3.1 2.1 3.4 12.5
Now I don’t know about the viewing population, but if you told me that I could have a Center that has a strong reputation as an excellent defender and he was going to get me 12 and 1/2 point, 12 boards, and 3 block a game while shooting 56% from the field and 73% from the stripe, I’d be pretty damn happy with that.
So with that said, STAY OUTTA FOUL TROUBLE SAM!!!
by Devastation Co. MMA on Jun 19, 2010 2:26 PM PDT reply actions
Fouls, attitude and 6 different coaches
But, I don’t think people are excited about his scoring. If he changes shots and gets blocks and rebounds, that will be enough. But, I wouldnt expect double double performances. Although he is in a contract year, and you know how players suddenly find their game in a contract year.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
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