Comparing Dalembert and Hawes in Individual Defense
As promised, one more defensive comparison between new King Samuel Dalembert and his outgoing counterpart Spencer Hawes. This one uses Synergy's play-by-play data to look at each player's individual defense.
Almost 90 percent of defensive possessions for most centers come on three types of plays: isolation, spot-up and post. Dalembert and Hawes fit this mold.
About 15 percent of each center's defensive possessions came in isolation. In those opportunities, Dalembert allowed his opponent to score 0.7 points per possession, shooting 29 percent from the floor and drawing a foul on 8 percent of the plays. Hawes allowed his opponent to score 0.96 points per possession, shooting 45 percent and drawing a foul on 12 percent of the plays. Dalembert caused a turnover on 9 percent of iso possessions; Hawes just 1 percent.
Roughly 30 percent of Dalembert's defensive possessions and 25 percent of Hawes' came in spot-up situations, where the opposing center or forward received a pass and shot before taking a dribble. Dalembert allowed opponents to 0.98 points per possession on these, while Hawes allowed 0.85 ppp. Opponents shot 43 percent versus Dalembert and 37 percent against Hawes, and Dalembert allowed a greater rate of threes (42 percent vs. 31). Neither fouled much or caused many turnovers on this type of play.
Now, the big enchilada: post defense.
Post-up plays constituted 40 percent of Dalembert's defensive possessions, and 45 percent of Hawes'. Dalembert allowed opponents to score 0.87 points per possession. Hawes allowed 0.97 ppp. Dalembert fouled more frequently but forced almost twice as many turnovers, and held opponents to 43.7 percent shooting in the post vs. 48.4 percent for Hawes.
So Hawes does a better job closing out on shooters than Dalembert, but Sam is vastly superior (according to the data) working one-on-one off the dribble or in the low post, and has performed signficantly better on defense overall. This doesn't figure in his defensive rebounding (which is elite) and team defense (which is where most of his blocks come into play).
Once again, this is a massive defensive upgrade.
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Thanks TZ
This is a Good Trade and worth the risk of losing out on the potential that Hawes could be. The reality is we have 3 other guys that have “potential upside” in , Omri, Donte and JT. Then add our draft pickit really becomes a fourth “potential upside” guy, especially if it is a big. The reality is we need some quality known entities to help the young guys reach potential sooner, otherwise the young guns may not develop as quickly if they do not have some stabilizing presence.
"If my aunt had a set of nuts, she'd be my uncle"
Well he can't wear 1 or 11
Maybe 31. I heard it was recently made available.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
He did wear #6 for Team Canada.
But that’s also retired for the fans.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Surely #6 is reserved for our free agent signing this summer… unless he goes back to 23.
Just sayin’.
lol..naw i think hes going with 52
Then again that is a “soft” number
by RekeHAVOC_13 on Jun 18, 2010 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Dalembert is going to change the focus of the team, by bring more to the defensive end.
Instead of spending so much time and frustration trying to improve Hawes, the coaching resources can be better spend on how best to utilize defense.
Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.
-John Wooden
by Slam_Dunk on Jun 18, 2010 7:11 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
absolutely
I think his presence can really help to improve team defense overall. I even wouldn’t be surprised if Landry will improve his defensive rebounding when he’s playing alongside a good rebounding C.
Good trade, I think, but I wonder if the perception may change a bit if the Sixers manage a favorable buy-out of Noce’s contract. I assume that is still a possibility, no?
Dunking Dutchman
I wouldn't be surprised if it was guaranteed before the trade.
Philly has Thad Young , Smith and Hawes with rookie scale contracts expiring this year. And, with the possibility that the Salary Cap could come down again next year, it was going to be hard for them to negotiate new contracts for Young & Dalembert, and stay under the Salary Cap.
If they can lose Noc, they probably can resign Young and Hawes, without going back over the cap while still signing this years #1 and next years.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
The sixers don’t play thaddeus young at small forward – they think he’s a power forward
they have this guy named iguodala who is a small forward
After the trade for nocioni – the sixers have MORE committed in 11/12 then they did before the trade – so I doubt this helps their 11/12 cap situation just yet
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 18, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I am not going to argue with positions they played last year
But is there any indication that Collins has different thoughts on how to use the players?
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 18, 2010 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions
There’s no indication this off season that anyone who works for the sixers has come to their sense regarding Thaddeus Young
Then again, aside from scoring, he hasn’t shown an ability to do much else – which makes him fit perfectly on the sixers bench – a whole bunch of guys who can score and do little else :)
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 18, 2010 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions
After watching last night’s game, I’m glad the Kings made this trade. The Celtics were destroyed by the Lakers rebounding. The Kings need a rebounder who can compete with Bynum/Odom/Ron-Ron .
"Even the Swedes are getting mad."-Randy Hahn
"It's very cozy in the sin bin."-Randy Hahn
Not only that, the Celtics nearly won with their defense.
Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.
-John Wooden
Yep
JT is a good rebounder and so is Landry. With Dalembert the Kings should have more of an presence in the middle.
"Even the Swedes are getting mad."-Randy Hahn
"It's very cozy in the sin bin."-Randy Hahn
Landry a good rebounder?
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 18, 2010 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes
bounces up quickly every time he hits the floor.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Numbers say yes
he shoots a decent number of jumpers away from the hoop. But Truehoop linked to an article that adjusted for that a couple months back and basically showed Landry on a list of bigs who rebound very well when in the vicinity of the paint.
Landry is not a good O rebounder...
Hes better on D boards
by RekeHAVOC_13 on Jun 18, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I love how you have the facts exactly opposite
Landry is an above average offensive rebounder and below average defensive rebounder.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
And I think the Lakers DID win with their defense
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
Oh, did I leave out a small detail?
I want to thank my psychiatrist. - Ron Artest, June 17, 2010, after winning NBA Championship.
Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.
-John Wooden
If you want to be your best, you have to do your best, otherwise you are only second rate.
Nah, just reiterating your point. :)
"Matt Cain's better at this than I've ever been at anything in my life. He's better at this than you'll ever be, at anything. Matt Cain has a gift. He has a gift, and when you acknowledge that, then maybe we will have something to talk about."
They also won because the celtics primary defensive presence in the middle was absent for game 7 allows the lakers to dominate the offensive glass in a way that just shouldn’t be allowed
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 18, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
can't argue against that
but injuries are part of the game. that’s the way the cookie crumbles
Screw you Knicks! LBJ to the Kings!!!
Many sixers fans kept crowing about how great it was that Sam was gone because his offense was god awful – i suggested to them they watch the celtics / lakers game 7 and see what happens when your primary rebounding ‘scary guy’ in the paint is gone defensively.
Elton Brand, Thaddeus Young, Spencer Hawes, Mareese Speights
That’s currently the sixers PF/C players (and young isn’t a SF playing out of position really)…none of them are even league average defensively, let alone strong rebounders and shot blockers like dalembert.
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 18, 2010 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Their D was extremely impressive in the 2nd half.
"So your a Yank? Thats ok, were all just people. People are all the same. But we like Canadians better." - Guy at the grocery store. "wow"
I posted this on another post, but in case you haven’t seen it …
Last year Sam grabbed 30.7% of the defensive rebounds avaiable to him, ranking as the 25th best single-season of all-time. And his career percentage (25.4) would currently rank him as the 12th best defensive rebounder of all-time (in between KG and Artis Gilmore).
Which is why we love this trade.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Alright alright, I get it
I just moved from very slightly leaning in favor of this move to “absolutely over-joyed” for this trade. We get rid of Noce’s contract and add an almost histroically elite defensive rebounder and very good low defender—arguably the single greatest need in Sactown. I’m for it.
[tongue in cheek]And we still have room for Lebron this year or ’Melo next year[/tongue in cheek]
by nobodyinparticular on Jun 18, 2010 10:06 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
The kings got the better of the deal on and off the court
even if sam doesn’t work out i bet petrie does better with the contract at the trade deadline then hawes/nocioni
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 18, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
How valuable is an expiring 14 million dollar contract?
Especially when it means the Kings would have to take significant money back to trade Sam?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
There are too many variables between now and then to even begin to answer that question, even still, the kings clear more cap space to try and make a run next season at someone (carmelo – but i doubt he leaves denver?) while the sixers continue to go one year at a time saving a paltry 3 million this year but adding another approximately 6.5 million for 11/12 as opposed to just biting the bullet this year.
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 18, 2010 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions
If you don't think that trade kicker limited Sam Dalembert's trade value...
…there’s a bridge in Arizona I’d like to sell you. And, if you think that Dalembert’s value at 14 million is worth something of major value to NBA teams, I’d like to sell that bridge to you twice.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm offiially on the trade bandwagon now
The NBA where complacency happnes. The NBA where riggging happens. The NBA where Los Angeles wins for one reason. The NBA where you wont have to look further than the Lakers to see "champions". los Angeles where playing like shit during the regular season is rewarded for by championships.
I know the sun will rise in the East and that 2+2 = 4
But sometimes it’s nice to have proof.
by nbrans on Jun 18, 2010 9:24 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I just had to get in an I told you so
I said months ago Hawes wasn’t going to be a King long. Its nice to be right once in a while.
:-)
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
Good call
I had him traded somewhere right before the All Star break if he didn’t show anything.
by kingsfan300 on Jun 18, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
At least there is no more debates about Hawes and defense.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
There is validation that the Kings were seeing in Hawes what we have been saying.
For all of us, who were hoping to see Hawes traded, this is good news. The debates became old and the question of his “potential” can still be pondered from afar. Just not in our house.
I want to thank my psychiatrist. - Ron Artest, June 17, 2010, after winning NBA Championship.
Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.
- John Wooden
If you want to be your best, you have to do your best, otherwise you are only second rate.
I remember being really surprised that the Synergy data suggested that JT was a better defender than Hawes
I am looking forward to seeing JT’s performance next to Dalembert, Landry, Brockman, and whoever the Kings draft. I think this trade also will help us get a better understanding of where JT is at this point in his development.
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
good point
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Where do pick and rolls fit
in this data?
I think that’s a major weakness for Dalembert and would be curious what the data suggests.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
I think that would be really hard to figure out
Synergy measures out a player’s defensive and offensive stats based on plays they were involved in but it’s difficult to figure out pick and rolls because they measure the resulting play. So if they call a pick and roll and it falls apart but nobody takes a shot and they reset, it doesn’t count. Also it’s difficult to try and quantify the screener’s role in the pick and roll play. I am sure stat guru’s in Houston have figured out a way to determine a successful pick and what not, but Synergy seems to only focus on the resulting shot.
Synergy has broken down offensive and defensive plays into specific categories of measurement. They are Isolation Plays, Pick & Roll Ball Handler, Post-Up, Spot-Up, Off Screen, and Hand Off. It would be hard trying to use their data to come up with a reliable answer.
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 18, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
sorry for some reason I thought you brought up Synergy
I have no idea why. I must have been reading something right before that made me think that.
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 18, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Interestingly enough
These two guys had 30-40 plays each guarding the P&R Roll man. Not much.
I’m under the impression a) more PFs than Cs participate in P&R’s today, b) guards finish the play rather than the bigs more frequently, and/or c) when the big in a P&R pops, that counts as a spot-up possession instead of a P&R Roll defensive possession.
I can check the video this weekend, if I remember/get time. I’d be interested to hear why you think Dalembert is a bad P&R defender.
was he talking P&R offense or defense?
Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 18, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Like a lot of big men
He has trouble covering the guards on the pick and roll. When he comes out they blow by him. He usually is just slow to come out, leading to open jumpers.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
I have a feeling
the first home game for Sammy, he’s going to start rebounding and playing well … Arco will go nuts when he blocks a shot.
Not sure
Arco knows what a blocked shot looks like. There might be stunned silence while the crowd tries to figure out if something illegal just happened.
by SPTSJUNKIE on Jun 18, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
"The something illegal part"
Is usually my first thought sometimes too. Always expected a foul or goaltending if Hawes got a block shot.
Hello Haitian Sensation,
good-bye Great White Hype…
Sound the trumpets, Raise the drawbridge, and drop the Oldsmobile
by Balky Needs on Jun 18, 2010 10:59 AM PDT reply actions 5 recs
Oh that is GOOD
The Haitian Sensation. Winner Winner
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
by MustangMBS on Jun 18, 2010 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just...not...good....enough....for a REC?
[watches bobber / sips lemonade]
Sound the trumpets, Raise the drawbridge, and drop the Oldsmobile
I thought it was, but my big question is:
What are we going to call Sammy in the game threads? Aykis? Ed? Kfan?
"I make love to pressure" - Stephen Jackson
Been his nickname for a couple years
The proudest word in baseball is gamer - Tim McCarver 6/12/2010
by jemagee on Jun 18, 2010 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Ed , Finally i am happy..Now youi will not have to hear me talking about Kings gettign a new Bigman until next summer!
Judgment day is coming!
Hahaha
Good trade, Wolf. I like it.
And if we get a good big in the draft you won’t have to talk about getting a new big at all. How about that? :)
"Children want what they want when they want it." ... Andy Sims
I like the sound of that, but unfortunately I think this takes the kings out of taking Varnado with the 33rd, who i see as the next Dalembert. Dude already beat Shaq’s College record for blocked shots. I am gonna be happy if Dalembert can show JT and Donte a couple things about at the rim defense..Imaging if JT could pick up blocking shots along with the rest of his Skills. In Peaches words..OH BOY!@@@@!!!!
Judgment day is coming!
I'm hoping that
practicing against a defensive center like Dalembert will improve JT’s post up game too.
Dalembert has 4yrs more experience than Hawes, what were Sammy's number 4 yrs ago?
Philly was worse in OffEff and DefEff with SD than the Kings were with Hawes.
The Kings were better in Def Rebounding Rate and Total Rebounding Rate then Philly was.
The Kings were 10th in total rebounds and Philly was 21st. Does SD get more rebounds than Hawes would have, certainly. Will the King improve overall rebounding wise with SD, or will SD just take rebounds away from other Kings? And, as JR is so fond of saying, Blocks are overrated especically if they don’t result in a change of possession.
Defensively, the Kings got better in the paint, but is that enough? It’s going to be a very interesting season, I’ll be very curious to see how Spencer’s development goes under the guidence of Doug Collins and whether Collins uses him as a high post distributor or in a more traditional NBA center role.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Hawes is going there
one year too late. Would have been interesting to see him playing in the Princeton with Eddie Jordan.
But think of Tyreke..If Dalembert steals all the rebounds, Reke wont be able to get his Sophomore Triple Double…unless he starts going ball’s out on assists
Judgment day is coming!
Isnt Dalembert almost 30 years old???
They traded a younger player not yet in his prime making way less money for a player out of his prime…..hmmmmm…. I wasnt that big on hawes becuase to me defense is the most crucial part of the game. However, I’m thinking hawes offense is far better than Dalemberts defense.
the Kings problems
weren’t on the offensive end, they were/are defensive.
and Sammy only averages 2 points per game less than Spencer. I think.
we were really bad on offense too, don’t kid yourself. Points scored != good offense.
What we've got here is, failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
not that much
they averaged exactly 100 pts per game, good for 19th in the league
gave up 104.36 a game, 6th worst in the league.
Not saying they’re the LA Lakers on offense, but defense is the bigger need.
Using raw numbers doesn't take pace into account. Faster playing teams look better on O and worse on D than they actually are
Use this link and scroll down to Miscellaneous Statistics and check the ORtg and DRtg. They are adjusted to points per 100 possessions to take pace out of the equation.
Kings ORtg: 22nd in the league
Kings DRtg: 20th in the league.
Both rather bad.
You can also see the Kings’ pace was 6th fastest in the league.
Don't say stupid shit. You won’t be perceived as stupid. - pookeyguru
by Kfan in Korea on Jun 18, 2010 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions
true
and usually I dont just throw out raw numbers like that cause sometimes they can be misleading. My bad.
Let me change the wording on my opinion on this ….. I think the offense will be easier to correct than the defense. Hell, getting better at FT% would add a few PPG …. but the Kings didn’t have a guy like Sammy, and i think it was necessary to get a guy like him to get the defense turned around. So I think gaining Dalembert defense > losing Hawes offense.
Yeah, we just had problems on both ends
Having someone that can protect the rim, certainly isn’t going to hurt.
Don't say stupid shit. You won’t be perceived as stupid. - pookeyguru
by Kfan in Korea on Jun 19, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not sorry to see Spencer go
My concern with him since the Kings drafted Reke was; even if Spencer gets better (and I think he will) was he going to grow into the Center the Kings need? I don’t think so. Even though there is little value in looking back to our heyday I wonder if Dalembert can grow into a Vlade – esque role on the team. Not so much in style of his game but instead a similar role on the team?
"I make love to pressure" - Stephen Jackson
the other question
will this be a wake up call to Spencer that he needs to concentrate more on having an NBA career than a college academic career?
I am of the belief that with his class graduating this year, Spencer will either begin to see that he needs to fulfill his NBA demands or he will just drfit further into his “next life” after the NBA.
But I am just chucking poorly formed excrement at the wall at this point. I just always had the impression (based on my observations which are both distant and distorted) that Spencer longed for the college life and the pursuit of academia more than the usual NBA youngster.
by betweentheeyes on Jun 19, 2010 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Be careful where you chuck that stuff, something just hit me right between the eyes.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Jun 20, 2010 1:26 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

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