Beno Udrih vs. Rodney Stuckey vs. Mike Conley
by Tom Ziller on Aug 18, 2010 10:21 AM PDT
in Commentary
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PrintThe brilliant Kelly Dwyer has wrapped up his point guard rankings at Ball Don't Lie; as always, it's a great and insightful read. (The previous link goes to the top 10; here is 11-20 and 21-30.) Tyreke Evans will be on the shooting guard list, so look for that in the next couple days.
I looked for Beno Udrih on this list, and didn't see him, so I looked again. Still didn't see him. Thinking I may have gone wacky, I did the ol' Ctrl+F. No dice. No Beno is the top 30. Last night, KD tweeted that, along with countryman Goran Dragic, Beno was one of the final cuts.
But I didn't become truly confused until I noticed Rodney Stuckey at No. 29 and Mike Conley at No. 27.
Other point guards near the bottom? Kyle Lowry, Jrue Holiday, George Hill? I can see taking them over Beno. I may not agree, but I can see it. But for Stuckey, a low-efficiency scoring lead guard, and Conley, a low-everything shutterbug, I just can't get on board.
About Stuckey, KD writes, in part:
He's yet to find a balance between acting as a scoring point guard or passing point man, and the unfortunate truth behind those two aspects of his game is that he's not particularly adept at either.
About Conley, KD writes, in part:
Even though he doesn't turn 23 until this October, does Mike really seem like a guy who is just waiting to take a big step forward? His game, and sometimes middling quickness, just don't seem suited to it. Which is fine, for a sound backup or starter in the pinch.
That's just the problem with these players. Stuckey threads the line between scoring lead and playmaker. But he's awful at the former, with a ghastly shooting percentage and too few free throws to make up for it. As for playmaking? He averaged fewer assists and more turnovers per game than Beno last season. He's not a better scorer than Beno, and he's not a better playmaker. He's likely a somewhat better defender, though it's hard to tell by how much. In the aggregate, it's unlikely he added more to the Pistons than Beno added to the Kings last year, and I fail to see how that'd change this season without massive improvement on offense from Stuckey and a fall-off from Beno.
Conley isn't a much better shooter than Stuckey, though the Grizzly can stroke threes. But he rarely creates for himself, and isn't a Brevin Knight in terms of creating for others. He's Howard Eisley. Now Eisley had a long career, and some nice moments. But Beno's a lot more than that, right? Again, if you want Conley over Udrih this season, you're counting on a fall-off for Beno and a big jump from Conley.
Will Beno fall off? Mike Prada said he thinks Beno's shooting percentages were flukey last season, a fair concern. Let's take a look at his three seasons in Sacramento.
| Season | Minutes | 2P% | 3P% | 3PA/FGA |
| 2007-08 | 2080 | .482 | .387 | .193 |
| 2008-09 | 2270 | .490 | .310 | .162 |
| 2009-10 | 2477 | .529 | .377 | .236 |
The three-point shooting was not flukey -- he shot better in his first season in Sacramento and, for what's it worth, his rookie season in San Antonio (58/142, .408). And Beno took a greater share of his shots from behind the arc, which boosted his effective field goal percentage and True Shooting percentage. (Thanks be to Paul Westphal, Tyreke Evans and, later, Carl Landry.)
The two-point shooting? Last year's ace performance was certainly better than usual, and two-point field goal percentage is in fact one of the most volatile stats there is. Call it a fluke if you'd like; you'll get no argument here.
But guess the two-point percentage of Stuckey and Conley.
Stuckey: .418
Conley: .464
Even at Beno's worst, he's shot much better than that on twos. So, again, it'd take more than just a reversion to the norm for Beno to be less valuable on offense than Stuckey and Conley. It'd take that reversion, even more slipping from Beno and a big jump for the two kids. You want to bet on all of that?
***
I have the utmost respect for Kelly, who is the best game analysis in the nation, bar none. No one being published anywhere breaks down a game better than KD. No one. Anywhere.
But grown men can disagree, and so, here, I do disagree.
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First thing my wife has ever laughed at or paid any attention to on StR
Ever!
"I make love to pressure" - Stephen Jackson
by Bluejohn on Aug 18, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
And, apparently, the corrollary
Beno must be NaSG
"DMC and Purple Jesus are gonna run shit very very soon" - "Gavin Maloof" commenting at probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/07/fear-demarcus-cousins-for-he-is-a-beast.php
Nice analysis
I didn’t know their exact stats but have seen enough of all of them to say that Beno is the better offensive player. In fact, wathcing the three of them it’s rather easy to see that Beno is the better offensive player.
Based on last season, Beno could reasonably be in the top 20
He isn’t a great defender. but he is better than Brooks and Sessions, and his offensive game is on par with the likes of those players. Top 25 at least.
"DeMarcus pounds, like the hammer. Tyreke slashes, like the sickle.
For the good of the proletariat!" - tomroadrunner
Glad you did this analysis.
I was surprised Beno didn’t make the top 30. He has played well for the Kings. I do love KD’s writing though.
Vi Victa Vis
by cicero on Aug 18, 2010 11:17 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Well this is obviously because KD doesn't know about the Yeti.
Nobody expects the Yeti.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
by Aykis16 on Aug 18, 2010 11:26 AM PDT reply actions 7 recs
Yeti references
Automatic Rec from me.
When discussing two opposing point of views, the truth often lies somewhere in the middle.
For those who don't know what I'm going on about
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
I love Darren Collison's face in the pic.
“How did white boy get over there? Where is he going with that ball?”
"DeMarcus pounds, like the hammer. Tyreke slashes, like the sickle.
For the good of the proletariat!" - tomroadrunner
You see this cute smile?
After reading KD’s article, it’s not there anymore. Wabeno is coming for you Dwyer!
Maybe that's why...
Maybe that’s why Ziller didn’t find Beno in that list. He should have been looking for Wabeno!
It seems like at this point, Beno should have been ahead of them.
There are some things I like about Stuckey’s game, and I still feel like Conley has the kind of potential to be very good. Conley is definitely not there yet, but at 23, writing him off would be a mistake. I think in the right situation with the proper guidance, Conley could be a great asset.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
Beno was clearly a top 20 or higher last season
Minds will change if he comes close to duplicating it. I hope Beno read Dwyer and intends to shove it in his face.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
Unfortunately its not based on last year
Its important to keep in mind that Dwyer’s doing this from the “I’d want this guy on my team” perspective. He’s making his rankings on both past performance as well as how he projects them to perform in the future. That’s why Chris Paul is number 1. He wasn’t the top point guard last year, but he most likely will be. If people were given the option of picking a point guard for their team, he’d be the number 1 guy people would pick. And honestly, i’d pick most of the point guards on his list over Beno as well, except the two Ziller listed.
by vfettke on Aug 18, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I haven't seen Wall play in an NBA game, so I couldn't pick him first.
CP3 isn’t automatic for me. I would take a long look at Rose and Rondo, too.
Check out my news parody blog, in which I make fun of current events @ liveonlocation.blogspot.com
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Aug 18, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Williams has mastered a more complex game-plan and has had more success in the playoffs.
He is bigger and a better defender than Chris Paul.
I think I take him first, then think about Chris Paul vs. Rondo.
Rose is nowhere near top 5 yet.
"DeMarcus pounds, like the hammer. Tyreke slashes, like the sickle.
For the good of the proletariat!" - tomroadrunner
Deron Williams is one of my favorite players in the league
But I would probably take Chris Paul over him as a cornerstone. My thinking is that if I got Deron and Chris to play one on one, Deron would probably win most of the time. But give Chris and Deron 4 equal teammates, and I’d be willing to bet Paul’s team wins most of the time.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
So if their situations were reversed last season, Paul would have beat the Lakers?
Maybe.
But I think the Hornets would have made the playoffs.
"DeMarcus pounds, like the hammer. Tyreke slashes, like the sickle.
For the good of the proletariat!" - tomroadrunner
Agreed
I would gladly take Lowry, Holiday, or Hill over Beno any day (although I do pretty much have a man crush on all three of those players so this was pretty easy for me to say)
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 18, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
The Dwyer didn't see Beno play last year or
fully take his stats into account.
He wrote an opinion piece based on as you said ‘who I’d want on my team’ and I differ with that opinion.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Aug 18, 2010 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Kelly Dwyer has probably watched more basketball than any guy out there
He watches almost every single game and has to write a recap for Yahoo in the morning. He’s definitely seen Beno play.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
But like Ziller, I have to disagree with KD despite the respect I have for him.
Which is fine. In the end, its just a list that doesn’t really mean anything.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
Dwyer loves to make lists
which I tend to disagree with, but that’s a natural reaction with most rankings. Leaving Beno off this top 30 is basically Dwyer’s way of saying that he’s not starting material. I think we all know that this team will be in a better place when Beno is coming off the bench. In the meantime, Beno is definitely a top 30 pg.
I feel the same way about lists; however, given I don't really care for them I tend to just avoid reading them.
That being said though, Dwyer rocks and is a must read first thing in the morning during the season.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 18, 2010 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Terrible list
First, whether you think Evans is a better Sg or not, since he only started every game he played at PG not listing him is absurd. Second, I’d take Beno and Dragic over about 5 or 6 guys on that list. I have to admit not to reading KD much, but this list is kinda horse puckey.
Can't wait for October
by KingsFanInPortland on Aug 18, 2010 11:48 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
agreed
I know PW uses two “guards”… But Tyreke should be listed as a PG. That may change if we could pull off a Pooh for CP3 trade. I’d be okay with that..
by theKINGsac on Aug 19, 2010 1:36 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
possible trade headline
Hornets find gold in Pooh.
Pooh = #2. Jeter picks his jersey number for New Orleans.
Gregg Popovich says something stinks in Pooh for Paul trade.
by theKINGsac on Aug 19, 2010 1:57 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I can't wait to see his SG list now.
Baron Davis is at #10 on the PG list because he’ll be playing with the one-and-only Blake Griffin. Gives me hope how high Tyreke is going to rank because he’ll be playing with the one-and-only DeMarcus Cousins.
If he stiffs Tyreke because of non-basketball stuff, I shall prepare to shake my fist at him like an angry old man. Fist shake. Fist shake!!!
This.
Typical. The Kings get no respect. No respect at all!
By the way, I thought I’d take this opportunity to share some of my favorite RD quotes:
“I drink too much. The last time I gave a urine sample it had an olive in it.”
“I haven’t spoken to my wife in years. I didn’t want to interrupt her.”
“I saved a girl from being attacked last night. I controlled myself.”
“I was so ugly my mother used to feed me with a sling shot.”
“My wife and I were happy for 20 years. Then we met.”
“When I was a kid my parents moved a lot, but I always found them.”
When asked how long he would be hospitalized: "If all goes well, about a week. If not, about an hour and a half."
Check out my news parody blog, in which I make fun of current events @ liveonlocation.blogspot.com
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Aug 18, 2010 12:09 PM PDT reply actions 7 recs
He obvioulsly doesn't understand the Beno allure.
/bah-dump-bump
Sound the trumpets, Raise the drawbridge, and drop the Oldsmobile
Allow me to retort:
GOD DAMMIT.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
Either you have to stop smoking lunch, or I have to start.
Sound the trumpets, Raise the drawbridge, and drop the Oldsmobile
If Tyreke isn't a point guard
then neither is Steph Curry or George Hill. This list loses its merit on account that Tyreke should be hovering around 12-15.
by VenomySnicket on Aug 18, 2010 2:03 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
12-15?
I’d take him over anyone in from 10 to 15. I’d easily put him at number 10 over Baron Davis
by vfettke on Aug 18, 2010 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would have stuck Baron Davis in the 15-20 range.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
Seriously
he’s played like crap since becoming a Clipper and now Blake Griffin’s supposed to make everything better? I don’t buy it.
not only that
but isn’t this list on who you’d want going forward? Like, shouldn’t it be independent of their current teammates?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Maybe, maybe not
Keep in mind, it’s the point guard position. Who their teammates are kind of matters. The reality is that it’s near impossible to do rankings like this. What do you base it on? What PG you’d want for the future to build around? What PG you’d want if your team is a contender? What if they’re just fighting for a playoff spot? The answer’s different for each one. If I’m building a brand new team guys like Rose and Wall come to mind. But if I’ve got a contender there’s lots of options. Great PGs put you over the top, but good veterans like Rondo and Nash provide amazing veteran leadership. Are Rose and Wall better than Rondo and Nash? It just depends.
If Griffin's what turns Baron into a top 10 PG, then isn't Griffin the one you'd want on the team instead?
…Unless KD is talking about fantasy stats.
"Where hope goes to die"
Yeah...
How about we see Blake Griffin play an NBA game first? (Not to mention a preseason game? Or a summer league game?).
Check out my news parody blog, in which I make fun of current events @ liveonlocation.blogspot.com
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Aug 18, 2010 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
If Blake Griffin makes Baron Davis a top-10 PG, then Boogie will make Reke a top-3 guard.
And Reke will make Boogie a top-tier Center.
Check out my news parody blog, in which I make fun of current events @ liveonlocation.blogspot.com
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Aug 18, 2010 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions
If Beno couldn't crack the top 30
at PG, I wonder where he’d be ranked as a shooting guard.
I agree Tyreke should be ranked as a point guard and think he is already in the bottom half of the top 10. I’d certainly take him over Baron Davis in a heartbeat.
Chris Paul is clearly No. 1. Deron Williams is tough competition, but sometimes he just seems to lose his edge for some reason.
I think the rankings make it clear that Dwyer thinks the Kings need to improve in the backcourt.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
I consider Dumars a very good manager.
I’d even say great manager until last year’s failures (Gordon, Villanueva). One more thing I never understood about the Pistons was their enthusiastic belief in Rodney Stuckey. I’ve been following the kid very closely the past years because of my nerdy fantasy team and he never really broke out into the player the management believed he is. He’s decent, but nothing more than that. Perhaps a marginal starter.
Sure a couple of mistakes last year.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
Apparently some people think that who the coach says is the PG doesn't matter
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Guess KD didnt appreciate the 20 assit game(s) that beno had.
"Remember this sh*t at christmas!"-Terry Crews, The Expendables
Hey Dwyer, this kid doesn't like your rankings...
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
by MustangMBS on Aug 18, 2010 2:44 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
The Yeti: back in his younger years
And that’s not face paint
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 18, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah Beno should be in top 30 for sure
I have no idea how Ramon Sessions made it so high, or even made it on the list. I mean really he thinks Sessions is better than Ty Lawson, Jrue Holliday, or Ray Felton. He is a good passing point guard I will give him that. His main way of scoring is going to the basketball, and thats fine, but he cannot finish. Beno is very valuable to this team. He can play both guard positions, run the offense well, shoot, and score. He is an average defender.
Beno better than Sessions
if you ask NBA GMs who they would rather have on their team Beno or Ramon, I bet that most if not all say Beno.
I'd take Sessions
because he’s cheaper and I know the Kings wouldn’t be stupid enough to sign Ramon Sessions and then put him in the Triangle Offense where he’d be least effective.
totally
agree with this. sessions probably would have had a breakout season last year if he hadnt been on a pg loaded, triangle offensive team
by Harrisonyaka on Aug 18, 2010 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL!
I didn’t even notice that… Isn’t that David West getting the cheap feel?
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
My imagination must be lacking. I just keeping hearing Jerry Reynolds say it... Kinda weird...
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Agree,
Beno should be higher on that list for sure because of his production, numbers and ability. I think he gets underrated because he looks like an average joe, but he actually has suprising skill.
Rudy Fernandez!!!!!!!!!!!
I have the utmost respect for Kelly, who is the best game analysis in the nation, bar none. No one being published anywhere breaks down a game better than KD. No one. Anywhere.
If this is an example of what the best game analysis looks like…he blew it.
If you want to be your best, you have to do your best, otherwise you are only second rate.
______________________
People Who Live In Glass Houses Should Not Throw Stones - English Idiom
Well good thing this wasn't game analysis
Kelly is known for breaking down individual games during the season. As in he does a write up for literally every game he can possibly watch and then posts the write ups at yahoo
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 19, 2010 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Beno right on
Great write, agree with your view. Beno can light it up. Last year was the first time I saw Beno play live and my first thought was this guy can score and get his shot any time he wants. He would be great as first guard off the bench, getting points right away. He kept the Kings in the game last year against Cavs and was 2nd best player on the court to king James. I still say with a wing like Rudy Fernandez Kings make the playoffs. All we need is one more wing player or point guard to go to the next level. BRING someone in!!!!!!!
by rivercitysports on Aug 19, 2010 8:13 AM PDT reply actions
never drink draino...
Ignore use of a la la team or feeling beno miscues or not…the top rating is a reflection of Beno’s relationship w/staff. Ergo-placement as starting 1 or off bench 1 or no maybe 2 or next year at 6. It’s been a where do you play him now-what is his true position staff attitude. I like the kid’s potential playing solid 6-trust him or down the drain he goes.
Remember the second baseman for the dodgers…miscue after miscue after miscue…
Nevertheless, one of the greatest pro-sports coaches kept the kid at the same position day in night out…miscue after miscue-coach never wavering. The kid paid him back ten fold with solid play. Life is all about love…off to find some love for draino .
But be honest
Before our rookie of the year was in a kings jersey everyone wanted to trade him, hell just let him go. He had a good year, we signed him to a big deal hoping he can make another HUGE step upword, then he fell flat on his face….i mean he fell harder than snookie while drink (no one else watches jersey shore? lol) And now with all of our expectations being low again Beno blew us away. I would i take stucky and jr over beno today? NO, the year before last….maybe…..And i would think you have to do well 2 years in a row to crack top 30 pg. in the league, even though Reke was our point guard and Beno was are SG who could pass. (idk how it works but it did)
I still think Beno should come off the bench with casspi i feel they would bring a lot of energy and a change of pace from our starters…..but that’s just me.
So try not to get butt hurt if beno isn’t on this list because 2 years ago we were all screaming to trade or just flat out cut…..
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