30Q: Will the Kings Have a Double-Double Player?
by Tom Ziller on Aug 25, 2010 2:52 PM PDT
in Commentary
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PrintWe're asking 30 questions about the Kings' 2010-11 season.
Quick: how many double-double seasons have Kings had since the team moved to Sacramento in 1985?
Just eight, and five of those were accomplished by Chris Webber. The Clippers have had 10 in that span. Even the Warriors have had eight. The Lakers have had 14.
Just eight for our typically big-man starved Kings. The last one came in 2003-04 by the hands of Brad Miller, who went 14/10 in that incredible season. (You know, the one which went to pot around the time Webber returned from his microfracture rehabilitation, the one during which Rick Adelman let Rome burn.)
The Kings, of course, are restocked up front. The team traded a near-All-Star guard for a high-scoring power forward, then traded a perimeter-oriented center for a rim-based one and drafted a paint beast and a project shotblocker. Re. Stocked.
But are there any double-double players for the 2010-11 season in here?
We'll use a rough estimate of the players' per-minute rebounding and scoring to see how many minutes they'd need to eclipse 10 per game in each category. And we're foregoing the exercise for the 10 points/10 assists players -- suffice it to say both Beno Udrih and Tyreke Evans would require many, many minutes to reach 10 assists a game. Like, 70.
***
Carl Landry
Points per minute: 0.478
Minutes needed to reach 10 points per game: 21
Rebounds per minute: 0.172
Minutes needed to reach 10 rebounds per game: 58
Likelihood of averaging double-double: HIGHLY UNLIKELY
***
DeMarcus Cousins
Points per minute: 0.643 (at NCAA level)
Minutes needed to reach 10 points per game: 16
Rebounds per minute: 0.418
Minutes needed to reach 10 rebounds per game: 24
Likelihood of averaging double-double: RATHER LIKELY (assuming his stats translate with the competition damper being counteracted by natural improvement and better fitness)
***
Samuel Dalembert
Points per minute: 0.314
Minutes needed to reach 10 points per game: 32
Rebounds per minute: 0.369
Minutes needed to reach 10 rebounds per game: 27
Likelihood of averaging double-double: COMPLETELY PLAUSIBLE BUT PERHAPS NOT LIKELY
***
Jason Thompson
Points per minute: 0.398
Minutes needed to reach 10 points per game: 25
Rebounds per minute: 0.270
Minutes needed to reach 10 rebounds per game: 37
Likelihood of averaging double-double: SADLY UNLIKELY
***
Hassan Whiteside
Points per minute: 0.502
Minutes needed to reach 10 points per game: 20
Rebounds per minute: .341
Minutes needed to reach 10 rebounds per game: 30
Likelihood of averaging double-double: UNLIKELY
***
There you have it: the only King likely to average a double-double is rookie DeMarcus Cousins, assuming a) his college stats are somewhat translatable (as Tyreke Evans' were) and assuming he gets at least 24 minutes a game. Samuel Dalembert can also average a double-double, providing he either averages 32 minutes a game or begins to score more frequently. Jason Thompson has to play a ton more than anyone expects to reach 10 rebounds a game. There's no way Hassan Whiteside averages enough minutes to reach even eight points and six rebounds a game, barring a bubonic plague outbreak. Carl Landry would need to clone himself twice to get the rebounds necessary to average a double-double in the NBA.
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Here's a question
Has anyone ever gone from being a poor rebounder (as Landry is) to a good rebounder? Rebounding seems to be a skill that stays fairly consistent through one’s career.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
Many players do improve
as they age. But a lot of those players tend to be good to begin with, and height is a big thing. Dalembert, for example, has improved.
Landry would have to improve a ton to be “good” on the boards. I don’t see it happening.
Height is a big thing, but...
Players like Brockman and Barkley are two great examples of rebounding fiends that were “short” for their position. “Wanting to board” is a big part of it too. That and technique (ie Rodman).
I think of all our front court players Sammy is the most likely to go double/double. That is predicated on approx 30 min/gm. I think DMC is the center of the future but initially he won’t get the min/gm to go dub/dub.
Purveyor of Bull Plop
Right
On ability, size doesn’t matter as much. I’m saying undersized poor rebounders don’t typically become undersized good rebounders.
Brockman and Sir Charles ?
I do not mean to sound like a jerk……..but Compairing one of the all time great rebounders in N.B.A. history to J.Brockman is quite a stretch.I understand per min. and all that stuff but c’mon. Brockman usually came in against the other teams back ups and did great no doubt, Barkley tho led the league in offensive rebounds 3 years in a row.Also was in top 10 in rebounds 9 times, and led the league in reb avg once.Similar in height not rebounding ability,could you imagine how many he could of grabbed had he not had to carry the offensive load nite in and nite out.In closing I know my typing skills blow,I’m not a writer.GO KINGS!
by WE NEED A DEFENSIVE MINDED CENTER on Aug 25, 2010 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Not comparing
Brockman to Barkley. Just saying that shorter players that “want” to board can be very good if not great at it.
Purveyor of Bull Plop
Given our offensive rebound totals last year.
and dalemberts knack for a low post presence , could it be more likely than not for dalembert also ?
I'd not be too shocked to see Sammy get a double/double
He was 8.1/9.6 in under 26 minutes last season. In 07-08, when he played 33 minutes a night, he went for 10.5/10.4, and I would be surprised if he didn’t see similar minutes this season.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
I think he's one of the rare cases where the points are more of a concern than the rebounds.
He’s too big and athletic not to get lots of boards.
"Cousins is the Blaster to Evans’ Master, the Hammer to Evans’ Sickle"- HP
by tomroadrunner on Aug 25, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you are forgetting someone from last season, Sean May.
Dude was a threat to double double every night.
(c’mon, someone had to post this, it brings needed levity to a sad situation)
by betweentheeyes on Aug 25, 2010 4:04 PM PDT reply actions 5 recs
Hell yeah Kings will have a double double man
NaPG Evans will have 25/10a/7r pergame next year…..
It's all Jim Les' fault
Yours, for a low, low price!
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
by andy sims on Aug 25, 2010 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
All Tyreke has to do is average 5 more assits and with more big men that have a nice touch around the rim I dont think it is that hard.
"Remember this sh*t at christmas!"-Terry Crews, The Expendables
He just has to get twice as many assists as before
in the same or slightly more minutes. Not hard at all.
Yea, 15/10 just doesn't sound like Reke's style of game.
Although if he did manage to average 10 assts, I’m guessing Dalembert would have a hugh increase in scoring and a sure double/double season. I doubt if Sammy would mind it, seeing as it a contract year for him.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
It seems my ill-advised sarcasm has failed me yet again.
"Remember this sh*t at christmas!"-Terry Crews, The Expendables
That's because it's not that far fetched to be considered real sarcasm,
he did average 7+ for the last 2 full months of the season. Three more with a couple of new players who can score in the paint added to the team, isn’t completely out of the question. But, highly unlikely. But, if defenses rev up to stop Tyreke, look for him to find DMC & Sammy under the rim.
I’m actually expecting him to continue to score around 20+, and assist to go up and stay around 7 this year. If anything drops from his 20-5-5 season, it’s probably going to be rebounds because of all the added rebounder on the team to compete against.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
And if Pooh gets some good minutes . . .
He dishes pretty well which would help with Dalembert as well as others down and around.
Tyreke Fucking Evans would've had double-fucking-digit assists last year...
…if his fucking teammates could fucking make a fucking bas-fucking-ket!
Check out my news parody blog, in which I make fun of current events @ liveonlocation.blogspot.com
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Aug 26, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
more like 20-20
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 26, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Peaches?
Is that you?
Tom from Woodland is my hero
by luckthefakers on Aug 26, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
lol
oh only 5 more assists
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 25, 2010 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions
apparently I feel into a sarchasm
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 25, 2010 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions
What I like..
Is that Ziller dug a sarchasm inside of his sarchasm..
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Many of Tyreke's potential assists . . .
were not his fault last year. He delivered well. I don’t recall if he caught many of those Kings off guard last year or what, be HE delivered!!! With a little gelling and time with those new bigs under the basket, Ty’s assist should be well over last years!!
I believe Dalembert and Cousins are the most likely
but I think they will cut into each others minutes enough so that neither one does
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
I think you have something
For the good of the team and development of our players Dalembert probably should not the minutes he needs to get there.
Cousin is a different matter, but that is more about conditioning. He just isn’t likely ready for 24+ minutes until the end of the year or even next year. I think that Cousins is most likely because I bet they are working him hard to get ready for the season. Next is Dalembert, but less likely
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
When I was 20, 3 weeks was all I needed to get in excellent condition
granted I was never more than 5 pounds over my weight but on the otherhand I never went thru as intense of training as a NBA pre season. If he is not in shape by the start of the season, barring injury, he’s not trying hard enough.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
There is in excellent shape and then there is NBA shape
I get your point. When I was younger I ran two miles in 11 minutes without really that much effort. So, you would think he can be as ready as possible given his age and the summer.
I just don’t know that any amount of physical training can actually prepare a player for the grind of the season. One of my biggest concerns is that PW gives him too much burn too fast like he did Casspi last year.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Valid point
Casppi was definitely given more minutes than his body could handle
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Highly likely one or two end up with db/db's
The Kings were 10th in rebounding last season not adjusting for pace of play. And, they were less then 2 rebounds per game behind 1st place Chicago. They were one of the leaders in Off Rebs, but around 19th in Def Rebs, so there is some room to grow on the defensive end, the offensive end not so much.
The Kings were below average in shooting percentage, so if they improve at that end the Off Reb opportunities have a chance to go down and reduce our rebounds some what. Saying all that, I believe that there will be a shift in our rebounds away from some of our outside players and more so into the Centers & PF’s. Less team defense and more guys getting back on defense to stop the break or getting out on the fast break themselves. We might end up being only a slightly better rebounding team (top 10), but the bigs will get a greater share than in the past.
There is the possibility that we end up with too many rebounders and they end up taking rebounds away from each other. But, I think the likely hood is that both DMC and Sammy dominate the boards with their teammate blocking out for them. I’m going with 2 double/double guys although they’re most likely to be closer to 12/10 or 14/11 than a true 20/20 guy.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Looking at those stats is just ridiculous
Averaging over 50/25 in 80 games? It doesn’t seem possible. Not only that, but he averaged 48.5 minutes a game as well.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
Minute distribution.
Everything comes down to how Westphal plays this thing out. I think that Cousins is the likely choice because he is a players that can do a lot of damage in short bursts. Landry and Dalembert are specialty players, obviously one being a scorer and one being a rebounder/defender. Between the two, the Kings will get a double digit scorer and a near double digit rebounder, just not in the same player. Thompson showed last season that he has the potential to be a double double guy but with all these other bodies, I have a hard time believing that he will get the time to produce the rebounding numbers.
Per 36, I think the Kings could get 3 DD guys. Dalembert and Cousins are no brainers and I expect Thompson to put up very nice per 36 numbers this season because he will be surrounded by players who box out as opposed to last season when he played along side Hawes and Landry. It’s tough for a player like Thompson who doesn’t have amazing athleticism to rebound in a crowd when no one else is putting a body on a man. Dalembert and Cousins will definitely open things up for Thompson in this regard.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
I agree with your premise jj
I also think that Coach Paul will play the angle (per the Maloof influence) if DMC starts out in the first couple of months with mammoth numbers that he will play more to help him become a RoY candidate. I don’t think he will get the 4 flat treatment but something close to that – if he is in the running – during the two to three months of the season.
by betweentheeyes on Aug 25, 2010 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions
options...
It’s so nice we have alot of quality bigs.Going into last year we had Nancy Hawes and J.T. I liked JT but could not stand Hawes.Now not even a year later we have a real frontline.Even on the bench there is so much depth as far as bigs go.We went from a below avg frontline to one of the better ones and certainly one of the most versitle.I was so excited for dumping Hawes and getting Dalembert ,but after Cousins fell into our lap unbelievably and watching him in summer league it’s almost a after thought.Although s.d. does not score I love the fact we have a guy on the floor who does not need the ball and plays real defense and can rebound and does not wanna shoot 3’s.Can’t wait to see the new Kings
by WE NEED A DEFENSIVE MINDED CENTER on Aug 25, 2010 7:41 PM PDT reply actions
Strange...
from your screen name, I assumed you were a huge Hawes fan. I thought the organization would have to work really hard to convince you that Dalembert or Cousins might be better for the team.
My prediction
1) I think only Dal has a real chance, and thats if he ups his offense as promised. It is a contract year from him so – maybe. He’s been so consistant per over his career though.
2) no one makes it; due to minute distribution (Cousins), offensive abilty mixed with minutes (Dal), Minutes (JT), rebounding ability (Landry)
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
Thankfully
The goal is wins, not double-doubles or other meaningless stats like 20-5-5. Those are crumbs left over for rationalizing losers.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
Thankfully
We can look at improving the next year. Seeing the up and coming Evans get 20-5-5 was awesome and so is our the likely double-double stats. Nice to see we are improving. Cause only focusing on losing and our lack of wins is damned depressing.
We all want something to be excited about and seeing the improvement is definitely that, exciting.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
No one, but only because of mid-season trade...
I think SD has the best chance as the starting C out of the gate…. that and limited early minutes for DMC. I would hope that by mid-year, DMC is too good not to start and that a playoff contending team offers a nice piece for SD by the trade deadline. Thus, even if SD ends up with a double-double, it will be with a different team. DMC gets close, but the early months of limited minutes prevent him from getting the rebound number… wins ROY with a 17/9 average…
by longtimelistenerfirsttimecaller on Aug 26, 2010 12:43 PM PDT reply actions
I'm going with 15/8
(preliminarily)
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Aug 26, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Utter awesomeness.
So I was thinking about what we might possibly be able to deal Daly for at the deadline if we choose to go that route, and you know what would be awesome? If Miami’s management told Bosh, “First off, as a high-usage big not known for post defence, you’re really not what this team needs at this time. Second off, you make the rest of the big three look worse by association. We’re shipping you out.” Bosh for Dalembert, Landry, and a 2012 #1.
It would rank among the douchiest management moves in history, and it might also help Miami win the 2011 title by giving them strength inside to counter the bigs that the other contenders (Orlando, Boston, LAL) will be throwing at them. Landry would replace some of Bosh’s post scoring, and he might fit best as a post scoring threat off the bench with Haslem starting as a role playing 4. Miami would have the Bird rights to resign a starting quality 5 and an excellent 4 off the bench next offseason and we’d have a very good but spurned/disgruntled PF locked into a slightly below market deal for the next 4.5 years.
Miami fans who understand how a team that fits well together can be greater than the sum of its parts might be happy. Sacramento fans who want an almost 20-10 PF with an inside-out game to complement our emerging PG and C would be happy. Casual NBA fans that don’t like the apparent collusion that brought those three together would be thrilled. Casual Miami fans would be pissed. Bosh would be even more pissed. The fact that Bosh would be severely pissed would spread an evil grin across my face.
</unrealistic fantasy>
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