30Q: What Becomes of Jason Thompson?
by Tom Ziller on Sep 10, 2010 8:00 AM PDT
in Commentary
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PrintWe're asking 30 questions about the Kings' 2010-11 season.
When the Kings traded Spencer Hawes and Andres Nocioni for Samuel Dalembert, the immediate difference for Sacramento's frontcourt was that either Carl Landry would resume a sixth man role (unlikely) or that Jason Thompson became the new all-important "third big" -- the first sub off the bench at either power forward or center. Considering the good man Thompson started 58 games in 2009-10, it could be considered a demotion, to become a full-time bench player.
But in a practical sense, the regularity would help, and J.T.'s importance would be codified. That third big is really important, especially when one of the two starters (in this case Dalembert) is fairly foul-prone. Sixth Man of the Year winners typically come from the backcourt, but I'd argue that in a leaguewide survery the quality of a team's third big speaks more to a team's quality than its first perimeter sub does.
Then the draft happened. The Kings preparing to select DeMarcus Cousins was not a surprise in the final days of the draft run-up, given the contract status of both Landry and Dalembert (both with contracts expiring in 2011), the years-old frontcourt deficiencies of the Kings, and, of course, the immense talent and potential possessed by Cousins himself. It was, as they say, a no-brainer. As was the selection of Hassan Whiteside in the second round, a move with less immediate impact on the future of the team's players, but with some impact nonetheless.
If the Dalembert trade pushed Thompson to the third big slot, what did the selection of Cousins do? What happens to J.T. now?
Assuming Landry and Dalembert start together to begin the season, I think Thompson can rest assured he'll be the first big off the bench, at least for now. The issue doesn't become immediate pecking order changes, necessarily, but scope of responsibilities. As in, pre-Cousins, Thompson would have been the predominant backup power forward and predominant backup center. With Cousins in tow, Thompson will still play some center, but Boogie will carve out a good portion of those minutes, leaving Thompson to get by mostly at power forward.
It's if, or when, Cousins gets his sea legs and becomes a major minutes sopper that we'll find out Thompson's true future. That could come at the jump. I remain amazed by how many minutes Cousins played at Vegas Summer League, more than any other player in the league. The stated goal was to familiarize Cousins with pro-level size, pro-level referees, the Kings offense, a few of his new teammates and to kick-start his conditioning plan. In the first half of VSL, Cousins took those minutes, chewed them up and spit them out. Fatigue caught up with him later, but Cousins showed he has the motor to play big minutes tout frickin' suite. Given his talent and the investment the team has made in him, he'll be given an opportunity fairly early this season. That could be Week 1, that could be February.
When it does happen, Thompson gets supplanted, assuming Thompson doesn't make major strides. It's possible he does make major strides -- he was solid toward the end of the season -- but based on reasonable, non-fanboy expectations, whatever strides he makes won't make him a better player than Cousins.
Will it make him better than Landry, or at least more valuable to this line-up than Landry? The Cousins-Landry dynamic is something to watch; Landry is a scorer first and foremost, and Cousins is a scorer-rebounder. Does a team with slasher extraordinaire Tyreke Evans need two bullying scorers in the frontcourt? That remains to be seen. Landry is brilliantly efficient, whereas Thompson is not, and I can see Landry's efficient scoring beating out Thompson's rebounding and size. (I could also see Landry being flipped for a guard in February, but that's another subject entirely.)
Given all that -- the fact that Cousins will rise, that Landry and Dalembert have head starts -- I think this season is actually not that important for Thompson's future. It's rare you can say that -- I mean, every season of Kevin Martin or Francisco Garcia's career has been "the most important season of their career" as of September. But really, what matters to Thompson (barring a trade) is what happens in the 2011 offseason: is Dalembert still around on a new deal? Is Landry still around on a new deal? That will define Thompson's role with the Kings going forward, not how many minutes he plays this season.
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Honestly...
He has peeked with the Kings…. I mean, the Guy admitted to not knowing when he fouls or not.
I mean, he Grabbed a Jersey, then argued that he did nothing, and then when watching the replay, admits to not even realizing he did this. and whats worse, is he continues to Open his mouth to the Refs…
Statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything.
Besides your random capitalization of words, I agree with you.
How does a player not learn after two seasons and 150 games what is a foul?
And he has no concept of the principal of verticality. Vertical is not a 30 degree angle with your arms into the player, then wondering in disbelief why the whistle was blown, lol.
I predict JT puts up 7/5 next year.
I love JT .
But what you just pointed out about his arms has been killing me. Maybe he has scoliosis?
Wow... Your Right, I never noticed That
Leave it to this Particular Blog to Point out something negative about a writing Style.
Thanks Dick
Statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything.
But in all seriousness...
why do you Do that?
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Sep 10, 2010 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I think I do it to Piss off
Anal Retentive people… But if it changes The Voice in your Heads then I can change.
Here is my formal apology:
“to all the toilet paper i rubbed wrong, i am sorry”
Statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything.
I especially like the use of the "i" in the apology.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
speaking of "i" I am going to kick your arse this weekend
(stupid fantasy football related tangent of the week)
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Academic, Irreverent, Conversational
are writing styles. Random capitalization of words is not style. It is immature and detracts from your idea, even a potentially valid one. Sorry to disappoint.
While I am at it, it is ‘peaked’ not peeked. And it is ’you’re right’, not your right. I could be wrong, of course, if you have your own ‘style’ of spelling and grammar.
I predict JT puts up 7/5 next year.
i al ways thoght
that Sargent English was a lame chaecter, even when he was schooling the less educated.
ahem….
“I belive that I have potential, and that my points are sometimes lost. I fear that I have lost the educated fan because of my lack of skills with a Pen and Paper, or I mean a … keyboard. "
WoW, Lets pick through my Shit and bitch that I could not digest the Corn.
Statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything.
I mean, your smart enough to find my point, no matter how difficult I made it.
Why Lash out because I did not “elaborate with correct punctuation”… Believe it or not, I actually work, so I am reading this during my workday, I care to comment because its a free country.
I thought the Rule was that I could post comments however I want, no matter the grammer. Just dont litter the Fanposts with it.
Regardless…. I only care about two things this weekend.
Chosen Ones Defeats Wally Wagon
Michigan Defeats NotreDame
Statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything.
Oh Man... Your Killing Me!
aNd yEs i cAn pUt iT iN a wOrSe fOnT
Statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything.
you may not have liked the blob's comments but you should consider taking them to heart
Over the last 6 months or so this site has picked up a lot of new members and as a relatively older member I can tell you right now that I immediately stop reading a post or comment with bad spelling, weird capitalization/paragraphs/text style writing etc.. Not only do I not continue reading their posts/comments, I generally won’t read anything that they write in the future.
If you want to contribute to the commentary in a material way you might want to listen to the blob. If You want to be the weird Guy thaT everYbody scrolls past and DOESN’T reAd, right on.
"I make love to pressure" - Stephen Jackson
I was curious about this!
I’ve only been posting for about a year, so I don’t know. Are there times during the year that a lot of new members come on board? I’d guess that around the draft and the season opener StR gains membership…but I’m not sure.
I get it. I really do
I mean, the only thing you have to know me by is what I type on this blog. I will do better, I will take steps to improve my efforts.
The last thing I wanna do is waste peoples time with my misguided fingertips. Thanks Blob, thank you for caring enough to teach me the ways of the blog.
and for the record…
JT was a four year senior, and he came to the Kings as a lottery pick, he was drafted above where he was projected. He has the physical tools to compete and make a difference in this league. However…. if we want to become a playoff team, then his role will be a bench player. I consider JT an excellent bench player, I mean if we can succeed with Scott Pollard coming off the bench, then JT is a step above that.
Statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything.
by Shadrack on Sep 10, 2010 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was a big Scot Pollard fan,
and at this point, JT might be better than him on the offensive side of the court, but I don’t think he’s quite the defender Pollard was.
In any case, I tend to agree with your overall assessment— JT would make a good first big off the bench in the long run, but I’m not sure how many people here would agree with that. It seems like we have some JT fans (jjham?) who see him as a long-term starter and some detractors (blob?) who would rather see him traded. That might make an interesting poll question, if I knew how to make poll questions:
Next time the Kings have home court in the first round of the playoffs, I hope to see JT:
a.) starting.
b.) coming off the bench.
c.) no longer on the team.
If the Kings are in the Playoffs
I wont care who is on the bench, even if it is Chucky Smith, Kenny Natt, Mikki Moore and Quincy Douby, because it means I can scream and cheer so loud that I cannot speak for three days.
I love playoff basketball when it involves the Kings
"If my aunt had a set of nuts, she'd be my uncle"
by want2win on Sep 11, 2010 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Don't see JT as the 1st big off the bench
Not with Dalembert, Cousins and Landry on the team. Dalembert has a career average of 26 mpg while Landry averaged 37mpg for the Kings last season. So, with Dalembert as the starting center, I see Cousins as the first big off the bench.
Now, I don’t expect to see Landry playing 37 mpg this season, but he should play more minutes than Sammy. Even if Cousins were to beat out Dalembert for the starting center spot, I like Landry starting over JT. But in that case, Dalembert is probably going to be the first big off the bench until Cousins shows he has the conditioning and stamina to play 30+ minutes per night.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
I think the Kings are going to steal minute at the three to make this work.
I could see Landry playing 6-8 minutes a game at the 3 with Donté and Omri stealing the same type minutes from the 2. That would give the big rotation closer to 102-104 minutes to work with. Landry-30, Dalembert 26, Thompson 26, Cousins 22. Whiteside might get some garbage time?
If things go well during training camp, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Antoine Wright not make the team with the Kings keeping a few more smaller players and using Garcia as the emergency 1,2,3. Evans, Beno, Pooh, Head, Garcia, Omri, Donté, Thompson, Landry, Cousins, Dalembert, Whiteside with Giddens, Wright, Sloan or maybe a late signing/acquisition battling for the 13th spot.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
It's possible that we might see Carl at the 3 some,
but Wright has a guaranteed contract for $850K. It’s unlikely that the Kings would release him and simply obsorb the cost while they have a roster spot open. More likely he hangs around at the end of the bench or the inactive list, just in case the Kings can use him as part of a trade.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
We will see.
A few years back, Petrie waived Loren Woods who had a guaranteed deal and then again last year, he waived Desmond Mason. You never know.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
Desmond had a partially guarenteed deal
only for $50,000. Same with Sloan, good o waive, but not for someone like Wright who has a guarenteed deal.
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent"- Qui-Gon Jinn
Yes
but with both Jackson and Sloan have little/no guarentee, there is no reason to waive Wright unless he is unable to play because of non injury reasons, and then its after the trade deadline.
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent"- Qui-Gon Jinn
As long as we have such a rich frontline
let JT foul as much as he wants. His advantages are many and if his weakness creates problems for the team, we have Landry and DMC to eat up his minutes, or Donte/Casspi at 4 if we want to go “small”.
What becomes of JT?
Ziller, you are spot on in answering that question with more questions. And there are a number of them that must be answered before any big man trade is considered:
Is Cousins ready for big minutes? If so, does it make sense to pair him with Landry, given that neither is a defensive force at this point? Can a Cousins-Dalembert paring work for decent stretches of time? What kind of offers do we think Dalembert and Landry are going to get next summer, and what kind of offers are we willing to make to keep one, or both, on? Will Whiteside come along quickly enough that his defense and shotblocking makes it less important to retain Dalembert? Etc, etc,
The interesting thing about all these questions, though, is that none of them involve JT himself. I feel at this point we pretty much know what we’re going to get with him. Hopefully he continues to improve his efficiency and cut down on fouls (and considering these are the most common mistakes/errors of young players, I don’t think it would be reasonable to assume he improves at least somewhat in these arenas) but both seasons so far he’s been remarkably consistent—14 points, 9.5 rebounds per 36. That’s valuable.
Now, some might interpret “what becomes of Jason Thompson” as “should we trade Jason Thompson?” But I think that is both shortsighted and misguided. Considering that Jason brings the least amount of questions on the court (see above paragraph) and off the court (we have a team option next year and he’s restricted after that, while Dalembert and Landry are both UFAs) why trade the one piece that you can be reasonably sure about? Ziller hints at a midseason Landry for SG trade, and I don’t want to derail the thread, but that’s where I’m sitting right now as well.
And another one, after reading Amick's Omri update
If Omri establishes himself as the starting SF, do we need to find minutes for Donte at the 4?
I don't think so
If Donte can’t get minutes at the three I REALLY don’t see him getting significant minutes at the four unless he bulks up a lot and develops skills heretofore unseen.
I’m also not a big fan of “finding” anyone minutes, unless they are a rookie and you want to see what they can do. Donte is past teh finding minutes stage. Either he plays well enough to earn minutes at a position or he doesn’t get them.
"And I never said I don’t like KMart. I just don’t think the duo is good for the team. They are essentially two of the same player"
Sammyp831.
On SB's note: Donte just hasn't shown he can rebound well enough
to take away any minutes at the 4 spot considering our new depth up front.
I think its unlikely that we resign both Landry and Sammy, so any pullback in JT’s minutes the first half of the season will likely be resolved at the trade deadline.
I think its also unlikely (referring to B-RAD below) that JT gets traded unless new deals are in place for one or both of Landry and Dalembert. A lot may be decided by how the combinations of big men perform over the first month or two of the season – that of course combined with whether any new contract(s) can be worked out with which of Landry or Dal the Kings decide is the better fit.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 10, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Maybe a stretch 4 in very specific situations.
like if everyone is in foul trouble or an injury , etc. But I agree with you, to bank on minutes there is foolish
Umm... I thought we were officially referring to Voison as the Chick Replacing Amick at the Paper? or CRAP, for short.
by sac_faithful on Sep 10, 2010 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions
I see Donte playing many more minutes at the 2 than the 4
Particularly THIS season. I have a hard time seeing Donte crack the 4 spot except in very rare and specific situations, IE shooters in the last minute of halves or games.
I see JT gone by the deadline
F#ck Kobe Bryant.
F#ck Shaquille O’Neal
F#ck Phil Jackson
F#ck Rick Fox (twice)
F#ck Sasha Vujacic
F#ck Robert Horry
F#ck Derek Fisher
F#ck Dick Bavetta, Bob Delaney and Ted Bernhardt – I’m still waiting for them to have their jerseys retired at Staples.
F#ck Every Laker fan who comes to Arco Arena, wears his hat sideways and stands up and cheers with his arms out and his back to the floor whenever Kobe scores a basket.
Oh, and F#ck Jack Nicholson, Dyan Cannon, and that silver haired douchebag wearing the snakeskin boots.
Who’d I miss?
by B-RAD on Sep 10, 2010 9:28 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Why would we do that?
He and Landry are our only true power forwards, and we have no idea how much Landry might want to re-sign. At very least, JT should be a reasonably priced back-up.
"And I never said I don’t like KMart. I just don’t think the duo is good for the team. They are essentially two of the same player"
Sammyp831.
Too early for me to make that an absolute
let’s see how some NBA conditioning might change things.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 10, 2010 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Even if he drops down to 270 he is one huge dude. I think saying he is a C is safe.
Can he maybe play some PF minutes. Maybe, but only if Sammy D can guard the other team’s PF because he probably won’t be able to do that.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
I personally think Dal can and will guard PF's on defense a good deal of the time
At least when he’s paired with either JT or Cousins. With Landry he’ll guard the other C’s of course.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 10, 2010 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
As do I.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Sep 10, 2010 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Sort of agree
Either JT or Landry is going to be gone by the trade deadline. Kings will have a ton of cap space and most likely be out of the playoff picture. Several teams will sending the Kings offers to unload talented players with salary issues.
Personally, would love to see Chris Paul playing for the Kings. There will be only a couple of teams that can throw a talented big man (Thompson), salary relief and a lottery pick in order to sign and trade him. Oh yea, Chris, you gotta sign that extension first.
What I am afraid of regarding JT...
Like many of you, my opinion of JT has been a roller coaster of expectations, excitement, and frustration. I have noticed, however, that both the lack of viable options at C and PF in last two seasons, and the presence of the much more frustrating Spencer Hawes, has led Kings fans to see JT through a cautiously optimistic lens that is good for encouraging growth and patience.
Many Kings fans (although not too many on StR) can be fickle. It is not my belief that the additions of Landry, Dalembert, and Cousins have made JT expendable, but I am afraid that many will begin to view him this way. Such an outlook could turn cautious optimism and patience, into negativity and a focus on what JT can’t do, instead of what he does bring to the team, and what he can still improve upon.
Without long term frontcourt solutions that reach beyond this season, I don’t think we can afford to write-off a player like JT, even if he is the fourth big on this year’s roster. I hope that the coaching staff, the media, and Kings fans can continue to support JT in his growth, even if he isn’t getting a huge chunk of minutes.
"The Kings have nothing to lose but their games."
by SactoRyan on Sep 10, 2010 10:23 AM PDT reply actions 6 recs
Well put, Ryan
I’m in total agreement. I wouldn’t want to even consider trading JT at this point unless Landry were signed long term. To highlight a few things he does bring to the team, he’s versatile, young, gets along with the core youngsters (chemistry,) and still has upside to be tapped into. I want to see how the expirings pan out, but I doubt that we will retain both of them, which makes JT an important piece moving forward….
"Indiviual results may vary, see participating stores for details...."
The key for JT is defense
With not that many minutes to go around on his position, hopefully that will light a fire under him to play better. If he is getting leftover minutes after Landry, Dalembert, and Cousins, he will need to get better to play. That means getting better on defense.
And I disagree when Ziller says this isn’t an important season for JT. If even in limited minutes he can’t keep from whining, committing stupid fouls he doesn’t remember, and using his size to defend bigger players, I think that will be the end of the JT experiment. The dude just has to grow up. Its his third year now, and if he can’t show improvement in those areas it might be safe to write him off.
Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."
JT shouldn't have any trouble finding minutes.......
I can see Landry as the one who’s minutes are going down. Unless he rebounds much better than he did last season, he won’t be starting for too long. JT was in a bad slump for half the season & showed a little immaturity, yet managed to avg 12ppg & 8rpg. That’s not too bad for a 2nd year player I don’t think. I feel we should keep JT’s minutes the same and put Landry back in his sixth-man role. As for Dalembert, it’s nice to finally get a proven defensive stopper, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he’s traded at the deadline. Of course the future of Dalembert depends on Cousins success, and we all know how good he may turn out to be. And if Whiteside has any impact at all defensively, it only makes me that much more certain.
Minute Breakdown: 96 min.
JT/32 – Landry/26 – Cousins/20 – Dalembert/18
Post-Deadline
JT/32 – Landry-30 – Cousins/28 – Whiteside/6
KINGS WILL BE 10-11 CHAMPIONS
32 min for JT but only 18 for Dalembert?
I think the team will find Sammy’s defense more than just “nice” to have. Don’t see the minutes breaking down like this at all.
Agreed
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 10, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Me too.
Again.
Dalembert will play much much more than that. He’s our best big ATM.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Sep 10, 2010 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed, Dal's D will be needed especially when we play quick guards
The great thing about having a stopper is it also allows your perimeter defenders to play tight ..it helps on so many levels, lets get to October I am ready for some basketball.
"If my aunt had a set of nuts, she'd be my uncle"
It's really not just quick guards
In the early and mid 90’s the NBA changed the rules to open up the game. Here’s a quote from an article by David Aldridge.
Hand checking was eliminated in 1994. Using the forearm to defend players facing the basket went away in 1997. In 1999, the league eliminated contact by a defender with his hands and forearms both in the backcourt and frontcourt, except on offensive players who caught the ball below the free throw line extended. Defenses were also prohibited from “re-routing” players off the ball. This freed up perimeter players who used screens to get open.
The NBA got what they wanted, a more open free flowing offense with more scoring and more excitement. The defense has changed from more hands to more moving of your feet, the stay in front of your man defense that many coaches have taught for years. But, the advantage will always be in favor of the player with the ball, which makes the big defensiver stopper in the paint even more important than ever.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
This is one of the reasons I really like the Cousins/Thompson combo.
Neither player is a true shot blocker but their sheer combined width will stymie a lot of penetration. I love the mix of lane cloggers and shot blockers the Kings have assembled with Landry being a player that can guard the smaller bigs in the league. It’s really too bad we can’t see this team play together as a unit for 4 or 5 years.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
by jjham15 on Sep 11, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The thinking, I'd guess, is that...
Dalembert is an elite rebounder and could make up for Landry when they play together. Cousins has the potential to be a monster rebounder as well. Basically, pairing him with a big rebounding center (and Reke, who is also rebounds well for his position) would minimize this aspect of his game.
Gimme some of that Kool-Aid
JT is going to be the guy struggling to play 20-25 minutes a game in the early going. After the deadline, it’s anybody’s guess.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
Starting PF has to rebound.
I really like Carl’s offense but 6 rbs in 30 plus minutes doesn’t cut it. I realize JT has been up and down but in his two up and down seasons, he has rebounded a ton more than Carl. Every team needs a blue collar guy that does the dirty work. Long term, if Boogie is to be our starting C, then we need our PF to be that guy. Hawes is gone because he didn’t fit in with the direction the team was headed. JT fits in nicely because he can start but he can also come off the bench and give the same effort. He has proven that. I really can’t see a situation where the Kings would trade JT at this point unless he simply doesn’t mature and get past this whining stage of his career and if that happens, he won’t get much in return.
Right now with Dalembert as the starting C, he is the blue collar big and with a very tall team, hopefully, Carl’s rebounding and mediocre D will not hurt us. Again, I am not knocking Carl’s game. But he was extremely productive off the bench for Houston and I can’t see any reason why he couldn’t do that in Sac as well.
I agree completely.
I think have a big, strong, hustle guy start is a good idea, though I think Carl is going to be the one finishing games.
by MichaelMack on Sep 10, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Sub in JT on D (as awful as that sounds, considering his foul problem) and Landry on O?
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Sep 10, 2010 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
What's most important at the end of games from a frontline player?
Offense or rebounding and defense? It’s a situational thing, but I go generally with the rebounding and D.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 10, 2010 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions
well, you need to be able to get high % and be able to hit free throws
but also not give up anything easy. Interesting call.
Making easy baskets when needed, when things get tight
It’s been a real weakness the last few years. We’ve been settling for too many jumpshots while allowing too many layups. An interesting call indeed.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 10, 2010 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Interesting topic for discussion.
Here are my thoughts:
Although I love the current mixture of talent the Kings own in the post, I believe that the long term plan is to buy a little time for both Thompson and Cousins to develop. Of the Kings four key bigs, Landry and Dalembert are the least “complete” as players. Landry is an excellent scorer and passable as a defender but his inability to rebound is not something that can be rectified with time. Dalembert is the complete opposite of Landry. Sammy D can hit the glass and is an excellent shot blocker but inept on the offensive end.
I have admitted to being in the pro-Jason Thompson camp in the past so let me explain why I think he is a long term solution. First up, he is under “team control” for another 3 seasons, only Cousins and Whiteside are under control for longer. He is a capable scorer, rebounder and has the tools to be a capable defender. Neither Landry or Dalembert (or Whiteside) can boast all three attributes. Add to this that outside of Cousins, Thompson is the best passer of the lot and in a pinch, the offense can run through him. I guess what I am saying, is that Thompson has the ability to do everything- maybe not at an elite level, but at a competent level and here is the kicker, Thompson can do these things at 2 positions, PF and C, something that even Cousins cannot do.
The Kings made a move to get Dalembert when they believed that Cousins was not even an option in the draft. They drafted Whiteside because he was a player that they couldn’t pass up on. They brought in Landry, not so much to replace Thompson but to add to the mix. I believe the long term Kings front court will be Cousins at center, Thompson at the power forward, Landry as the best scorer extraordinaire and Whiteside as a goal tender off the bench.
What I really like about this season, is that the Kings, through Westphal, can control the statistical performance of Landry, Thompson and Dalembert, hiding behind the term “depth” so that they can in a sense control the market for all three players. Next summer, the Kings can re-sign Landry or Dalembert or both and extend Thompson. Dalembert is the only truly proven commodity that can hit the open market and set his own price but coming off a few questionable years in Philly, what would that price be? Landry really has only put one really good season on the books and Thompson has been erratic in his two seasons. The Kings hold a lot of cards here.
Lastly, I want to add this- as a follower of Thompson on twitter (take this for what it is worth), I can tell you that he has worked out religiously all summer. Jerry Reynolds even alluded to Thompson being the leader of the let’s get to Sacramento early and work out together mentality that we are seeing right now with the Kings. Thompson was at summer league, he visited Omri in Israel- basically, he looks like the glue guy that every team needs. The Kings have always been a team that rewards players like Thompson who put in the work and go the extra mile for the team and I don’t see them doing anything different with Thompson.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
by jjham15 on Sep 10, 2010 11:39 AM PDT reply actions 9 recs
It's not the head coach's job to worry about market value
they can in a sense control the market for all three players. Next summer, the Kings can re-sign Landry or Dalembert or both and extend Thompson
It’s his job to win games. Now if GP and PW can get together on a plan . . . .
Well, we might see some showcasing for a trade at some point if Cousins looks like he deserves real minutes sooner than later. Any behind the scenes machinations are likely to be confusing for us fans.
I think it’s more than likely that either Landry or Dal get an extension/new contract before the trade deadline – which I still don’t think guarantees which one will stay. The Kings will try not to enter next summer with the chance of losing both Landry and Dal and being back down to 3 power players, two of them rookies.
A choice will be made.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 10, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
lots of good points made here but I think jj has summed them up (for me) very well.
rec’d.
I disagree with you though, lttg, that PW’s job is to just win games. He didn’t just win games last season and this season is the next step up in the building process – the lack of expectation for playoff contention gives Coach Westphal (and Geoff Petrie) breathing room. They have to win more games, but with the increase in talent, they will. They don’t have to make the playoffs, the don’t have to make it to .500 ball. They can play with PT. Molding and schooling have equal (or more) importance, though not as much as last season.
The reason I mention this is that with the expiring contracts of Landry and Sammy the Kings have to decide if they want to maixmize their trade value or minimize their contract re-signing value. Or just play them. Do they stay or do they go? It is September so I don’t think the question can be answered today.
This makes Jason Thompson the frontcourt swiss army knife, the trump card and a nomad all rolled into one. (JT = Jack of all Trades). To me, that makes him very valuable. If Landry goes down – JT pops up (he is still the first PF off the bench), if Daly gets 3 early, DMC may go in and follow suit (3 early fouls) – JT pops up again. Obviously more so if either gets traded (or injured). JT is whom makes King Carl and/or Sammy D expendable. DMC is not a starting 5 for at least another season, more likely 2. Whiteside needs 3 seasons if he is good enough to become a starter. Who is covering for these guys while they develop? Only one guy on this roster can play the PF and C positions this season; Jason Thompson.
What becomes of JT? He is Mr. Insurance. Hopefully you don’t need him, but you have to have him and he covers a lot of areas at a reasonable price. He provides security in position, in health and salary space. If I had to insurance motto him – I would call him State Farm (like a good neighbor, JT is there) but I wish he was All State (the good hands people)
by betweentheeyes on Sep 10, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Developing talent is different than worrying about market value
You’re right that PWs job is more than just winning games, that was a mis-stated.
I would argue that player development doesn’t necessarily equate with minutes played and showcasing talent for trade value. It’s a different set of priorities that don’t always go hand in hand. See the coaching treatment of Donte and Omri last season.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 10, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
All that said (if I wasn't clear)
It’s my belief that the 3 man rotation in the frontcourt after this season will probably (should) be JT, Cousins and either Landry or Dal. JT will just probably play less until something shakes loose with Dal and Landry.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 10, 2010 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
There are too many variables...
between now and 2011-12 season, so why focus on it? Too much can and will change between now and then. Remember it was not too long ago that the Kings front court of the future was Shock and Hawes. We’ve seen how that has played out.
The consensus of posts way underestimate Carl Landry, his role and future, and overestimate JT, his role and future. I understand there is an emotional attachment between fans and players, but nice guys don’t win games.
All the 36 minute per numbers, skill set and statistical analysis, and chemistry considerations are secondary to the first and foremost question a GM and fans should ask about any player, which is:
Can [insert player name] consistently help win games? Can [insert player name] be an integral part of a successful 9 to 10 man rotation, whether as starter or valued back-up?
JT has played 157 games in his NBA career, and in those games the Kings have lost 119 times. What does that say? When JT plays the Kings lose 76% of the time. Not good. JT is the only player or coach on the roster who can lay claim to this win, er, loss percentage. Yikes.
Now for a critical breakdown:
On offense, he has not developed a low post game, or an ability to catch and finish. His face up game consists of a one dribble drive, usually into the teeth of the defense for an off balance hook shot, and an above average 15-18 jumper.
Since he is a mechanical player, thinking his way through games, he does not make a lot of instinctive plays, crafty passes and nuanced non-box score plays that win you games. The records of last two seasons testify to this.
On defense, he is foul prone, and has an alarming turnover rate given the infrequency he handles the ball. He gives away possessions on travel and charging violations because of an inability or indecisiveness how, when and where to attack. This kind of innate skill usually does not improve significantly over time.
(Fortunately, our new young big, DMC, possesses these skills in spades.)
Yes, JT does things well. He is a good teammate, hard worker, man-up defender, and offense rebounder. But add it all up and on the defensive side of the ball you have an unreliable skill set, and on the offensive side of the ball you have an unreliable skill set. It is important to note JT plays the PF position, a spot typically which generates the most reliable and consistent production.
Referring to the above questions, and inserting JT’s name, it is impossible to answer in the glaringly affirmative.
Now let’s turn to Top Hat:
He has been an integral part of winning, appearing in the playoffs with the Rockets and playing vital role. One of the most valuable parts of an offense is a player who can consistently draw doubles. It opens up the entire floor. Without a player who can draw double teams, your offense will almost always stagnate at some point over the course of 48 minutes. One nuanced but dramatic thing that occurred following Top Hats addition, was the Kings offense flowed a lot more smoothly. PPG went up, and the Kings got good shots on most possessions.
Landry played 37.6 minutes a game last year, which led the team! It is not just my opinion that a consistent low post threat is vital to any success, PW concluded decisively he had to have him on the court. Lack of training camp, practice time and familiarity with teammates did not preclude his immediate insertion into prominent role.
On the other side of the ball, Landry plays position defense and he is a position rebounder. One thing Carl does is carve out space down low. If you watch him closely he is attentive to get between his man and the rim. So while he does not secure the rebound as often as you’d like, due to size and skill, he is affording opportunity to teammates to do so. DMC and Sammy will be rewarded.
Comparing intangibles, Top Hat was one of the best scorers in the 4th quarter of games. (In fact, I think he was best) He rises to the occasion when the outcome of games is in balance. This requires smarts, poise, timing, and an instinctive skill set. Top Hat brings this to the table. JT unfortunately does not.
Returning to the above question, I can confidently insert Carl’s name, and answer ‘yes’. JT does not get the same nod. It is not a resounding ‘no’, but uncertainty and unanswered questions after two full seasons does not forebode well for a productive or lasting union.
I predict JT puts up 7/5 next year.
by bench_blob on Sep 10, 2010 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I absolutely hate this kind of logic:
JT has played 157 games in his NBA career, and in those games the Kings have lost 119 times. What does that say? When JT plays the Kings lose 76% of the time. Not good.
Brook Lopez has played 164 games in his NBA career, starting all but 7. In those games the Nets have lost 118 times. That means the Nets have lost 71.9% of their games when Lopez plays. They should give him away.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
Obviously...
there is not a direct correlation between a players ability and his teams win/loss record. But a correlation exists insomuch as a players contribution or lack of contribution impacts outcome. This point is only included within a larger context to paint a picture of the player JT has shown himself to be.
It would be safe to presume if JT were an undeniable building block for the future, specific games and stretches of games would come to mind in which his play significantly impact the game, even in defeat. Maybe I have a rusty memory but the times JT has played starring role, in victory or defeat, have been few and far between. That’s not intended as a slight. Thats a fact.
Your point about Lopez is unfair. Certainly the degree to which he has kept the Nets competitive amidst all the loses is attributable to his ability more so than anything JT has shown capable.
I predict JT puts up 7/5 next year.
Agreed.
That logic is terrible.
Here’s another one: If you have Jordan Farmar on your team, you’ll become the best in the West.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Sep 11, 2010 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions
How and why is the winning percentage of JT even suppose to be an argument?
He’s on a lottery team for gods sake
"It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came, and the grasshopper died, and the octopus ate all his acorns. Also he got a race car. Is any of this getting through to you?"
In a nutshell
The consensus of posts way underestimate Carl Landry, his role and future, and overestimate JT, his role and future. I understand there is an emotional attachment between fans and players, but nice guys don’t win games.
This really sums it up nicely.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
Time to boot up the old killfile script again
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
Only Dal is eligible for an extention,
only contracts of 4 years or more can be extended and Carl signed a 3 year contract after his initial rookie contract so he’s not eligible. The Kings will have to allow him to go on the open market. Although with the new CBA that might be the best way to find out his market value and resign him without over paying.
With Sammy, he could sign a four or five year extention at much less than he’s making now. Based on his talent and age, a contract similar to Haywood’s would be in order. He might be inclined to resign rather than take his chances under the new CBA, or having to go to a team he didn’t like. He did wave his trade kicker in his contract to come to the Kings, although we didn’t have Cousins then and he probably saw the Kings as a team where he would be the starter.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
If it turns out he can play fine next to Cousins
and we can thus find him 30+ min a night (keep in mind he’s only average 30+ twice in his career), will he be happy enough to stay? If so, and we think he’s a good fit, I’d offer 3 years/$25 million for an extension, maybe bump up to 27 or even 30 if need be?
I agree, no where near Haywood money.
That was a horrible contract the second someone typed it into a computer. Haywood didn’t even make the Mavs better last year after the trade. Classic Cuban deal.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
You have to look at Haywoods contract.
First, it’s for 6 years but the last year where he makes $11M in not guaranteed. So, while a $52M commitment looks like a lot, only $41 is guaranteed over 5 years. That’s slightly better than $8M average for a starting Center. His first years salary is only $6.9M which is dam cheap for an experienced Center. The Magic matched the $34M offer sheet for Gortat for 5 years as a backup.
Haywood never averaged a double double, and his career averages are 7.7/6.4 in 9 seasons. Dalembert only averaged a double double once in 07-08 and has a career average of 8.1/8.3 over 8 years. So, unless your saying that Dallas overpaid Haywood, then Sammy should be worth that much.
I can see the KIngs offering Dalembert a 5 year $35-38M deal where the final year isn’t guaranteed or is partially guaranteed like the Haywood deal. He’d get $6.5M the first year and 10.5% raises which could be more than he might get under the new CBA. And, the Kings would only be obligated for about $28-30M over 4 years, so he’d be around as a starter and backup while Cousins and Whiteside develop.
If he’s looking for long term security, that’s the kind of offer that might interest him. Personally, I’d rather have Dalembert backing up Cousins next year than JT. Not that JT was all that bad playing center last season, it’s just that I don’t think JT will ever be the shotblocker or low post defender that Dalembert will be over the next 4 years.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
I agree.
I hope we can get a real hold on Dalembert.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Sep 11, 2010 12:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Love this
…Thompson being the leader of the let’s get to Sacramento early and work out together mentality that we are seeing right now with the Kings. Thompson was at summer league, he visited Omri in Israel- basically, he looks like the glue guy that every team needs.
by lead_pipe on Sep 10, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
3 things:
I don’t agree Thompson is a “capable scorer” or something you can “run an offense through”.
Also, Landry is a hot commodity. He’s put in more than “one really good season” and judging by how Wesley Mathews and Co. got paid this year, Landry will get a look from plenty of teams.
Other than those, yeah, I’m excited for JT’s progress this year.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Sep 10, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Landry isn't without some warts,
slightly undersized, poor rebounder, average defender, and puts up too many shots when he’s well defended when he should kick the ball out or repost. His high shooting percentage at the rim shouldn’t be overlooked, but it shouldn’t cause anyone to ignore his short comings either.
Granted, he’s still young and this is only his 4th season, but he’s probably not going to get voted to the all-star game this season. I think the book is still out as to whether he or JT has the best career.
Also, Matthew’s type money may not be around next season, considering that there could be some type of hard cap or at least tighter purse stings under the new CBA. But, I think the Kings would be happy to retain either Carl or Sammy for slightly higher than MLE type money.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Hmmm
puts up too many shots when he’s well defended when he should kick the ball out or repost.
I seem to remember PW and staff urging him to be a little more selfish with his shot – and he complied. That may change this year now that there are other low post options.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 10, 2010 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think this will change.
I think the Kings want Carl to be their Bobby Jackson type scorer but from the post instead of the perimeter. Landry should have very little constraints put on his game which is why he fits better as a bench scorer long term.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
Well his scoring was up almost 9 ppg over his 2008 numbers
he took 6.1 fga in 2008 in 21mpg. In 2009 with the Kings he took 13.5 in 37.5 minutes per game. So, he did pick up his offense.
That doesn’t change the fact that when he couldn’t get to the rim, he would force shots. He shot 70% at the rim and 50% from 10-15 ft, but inside of 10 ft he only shot 30%. Of course that’s only my interpretation of the stats, but I remember enough times where he put up contested shots that missed when he was doubled to believe I’m correct.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Your recollection matches my own
Carl was particularly good at passing out of the double team.
"Live Long and Prosper." - Spock
I'd say maybe Millsap money
to parallel with another undersized but productive PF: 4 years/$32 million?
Millsap can board and he's younger.
Rebouding is a much more “valuable” contract commodity in a power forward than scoring, unless we are talking about elite scoring like Stoudemire. Your price is probably right on the mark though so the question becomes, is Landry worth 8 million a year if he isn’t a starter for the entirety of the deal? I think he is because of his ability to score in the post but I do not believe that he is best suited as a starter. A 4 year deal leads to the time frame for an extension for Cousins so I buy it as an option, maybe even a 4 yr with a 5th yr team option.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
I disagree
low post scoring is much more valuable. Landry can draw a double team in the post, and teams can draw up an entire offense around that. There is a difference between just “scoring” and what Landry brings. His ability to score in the post far outweighs his inability to rebound. And while playing with Dalembert, evans, thompson and cousins its not going to be that big of a deal.
Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."
12.5 points a game is a capable scorer for a 2nd year post player.
The Kings are just now figuring out how best to use Thompson. I will also point out that Thompson doesn’t need to have plays run for him to be an effective scorer which is not the case for the majority of the other Kings.
As far as running an offense through him, Thompson showed last preseason and during the start of the regular season before Hawes was inserted beside him that he could effectively run an offense. He is a very capable passer and he looked veru comfortable running the high post. Thompson is a better passer than either Dalembert or Landry for sure.
Also, Landry is a hot commodity. He’s put in more than "one really good season" and judging by how Wesley Mathews and Co. got paid this year, Landry will get a look from plenty of teams.
Landry, per 36, was impressive as both a rookie and a sophomore but honestly, a lot of players have nice per 36 numbers in limited minutes. Before last season, Landry never averaged double digits in scoring or rebounding, and would not have been considered a “hot commodity”. Last season was his coming out party and if you factor in age, Landry is behind in development. I would really like to see what Thompson does as a 24 year old 3rd year player and I definitely want to see what Thompson looks like as a 26 year old 5th year player in 3 years- the same age Landry played at all of last season in his 3rd year.
I agree that Landry will find a nice market for his services but do to his age, size and rebounding deficiencies, I’m not sure that Carl will get the type of offers that a lot of people think- even without factoring in a history of knee issues and a new CBA.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
Landry, JT and Glue
They brought in Landry, not so much to replace Thompson but to add to the mix.
They brought him in because they haven’t had a big man who could score since Webber. And 18 a game in pretty damn good for a young player.
he looks like the glue guy that every team needs.
I thought Cisco was the glue guy. And doesn’t “glue guy” basically mean a nice guy who’s not much of a player.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
First up, Landry isn't really a young player.
With the NBA allowing any player with 1 year of college to enter the league, 19, 20, 21 maybe even 22 or 23 would be young but 26 is middle age by NBA standards. If the Kings wanted Thompson gone, they would have traded him to Philly instead of Hawes.
And, no, a glue guy is a player that puts the team ahead of himself and brings the team together. Thompson is a team player who works hard and visits his teammates during the summer.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
Gonzo/18/Glue
If the Kings wanted Thompson gone, they would have traded him to Philly instead of Hawes.
I don’t recall saying I wanted JT gone. Philly might have wanted Hawes if they had a choice of the two. I’m glad we kept JT, because Hawes needed to go.
And 18 a game is pretty good, regardless of the age.
Re: glue, Brockman was also a “glue” player, but he wasn’t good enough. If you’re not good enough, it doesn’t matter how much glue you bring to the party. I’m sure Kevin Durant is also a glue guy, but nobody brings that up because of his talent.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
by NewEraKings on Sep 11, 2010 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions
I didn't say YOU wanted him gone so unles you are the KINGS then I'm confused.
And this is just changing the argument:
And 18 a game is pretty good, regardless of the age.
Again, I’m not quite sure what this proves:
Re: glue, Brockman was also a "glue" player, but he wasn’t good enough. If you’re not good enough, it doesn’t matter how much glue you bring to the party. I’m sure Kevin Durant is also a glue guy, but nobody brings that up because of his talent.
Glue guys come in all shapes and sizes. Scoring leaders, bench players, it makes no difference. There is something that certain players have that others don’t which makes them the guy that teammates come to with issues or that everybody has a relationship with. Every team needs that guy or they become a team of individuals.
I know it’s baseball, but here is the best example of a glue guy that I can possibly think of. David Eckstein is a player who can barely throw the ball across the diamond. He doesn’t hit for a great average or hit home runs but he gets the job done. He also bounces around from one team to the next- winning games. The Angles, the Cardinals, and now the Padres all know what Eckstein brings to a team.
The Kings have a lot of interesting stories and someone needs to pull these guys together. Evans has his “blueprint”, Omri has the entire Jewish community, Cousins has his detractors- someone has to take these individual personalities/motivations and form them into one and that is not something a coaching staff can teach. If you don’t believe in a glue guy then you haven’t played enough team sports.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
I like your passion as a Kings fan
…but you have no idea what you are talking about.
You have a bias for JT, but it is not rooted in any substance. There were times last year when the Kings were down double digits, PW put him on the bench in favor of Brockness Monster, and a rally ensued. Brockman was an undersized rookie the Kings traded for a second round pick, mind you. So the Kings improved as a team, more glue if you will, by substituting JT for a borderline talent. I have watched enough hoops over the years to tell when a players presence on the court is an overall net positive or net negative.
More often than not, JT has a net negative effect.
I respect different points of view and you are entitled to say JT is the PF/C to lead us back to the playoffs and integral player for the future.
Time will prove you wrong.
I predict JT puts up 7/5 next year.
by bench_blob on Sep 11, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not going to argue with you because I think you are a complete idiot and a waste of my time.
I like Thompson as a player, you don’t- enough said.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
What did you expect?
…but you have no idea what you are talking about.
You say something like this, and then you have the audacity to call his response classy?
I con’t know what JT will be. Neither does JJ, and neither do you. As such, I respect your various opinions…and that is just what they are…opinions. None of them are steeped in pure fact, as you are both speculating as to whether this young player has peaked or not.
You want respect? Give respect. You don’t care? That’s fine, too. But don’t pull the “classy” card after you attempt to pants someone yourself.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Sep 11, 2010 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I respect his
right to an opinion, as I stated:
I like your passion as a Kings fan
and…
I respect different points of view and you are entitled to say JT is the PF/C to lead us back to the playoffs and integral player for the future
but I don’t have to respect his opinion, or anyones for that matter, if it is not based I what I perceive as rational thought.
If a homeless man is walking down the sidewalk talking out loud to himself about how the universe is about to end and we all are going to mutate into worm people, I would not oppose his right to his opinion, but I would not respect it, anymore than I would opinions such as:
(1) LeBron is a Coward, Let Me Tell You Why
(2) Landry isn’t a young player. He is 26 years old, after all, he may as well enroll in SSI.
(3) JT is better than Spencer or else he would have been included in the Philly trade. Huh? Exactly.
(4) JT can effectively run an offense. I think I speak on behalf of all Kings fans, when I say “cringe!”
As I much as I may disagree, I do not lower myself to name calling. I am not a complete idiot. I am a mildly functional on Wednesdays and Sundays, and a total genius every third Friday under a half moon.
I predict JT puts up 7/5 next year.
ahhh, but there is your mistake!
If a homeless man is walking down the sidewalk talking out loud to himself about how the universe is about to end and we all are going to mutate into worm people, I would not oppose his right to his opinion, but I would not respect it,
He was talking to me on his bluetooth ear piece about a blockbuster movie idea and was dressed in shabby gear purposefully to research the lead role.
by betweentheeyes on Sep 12, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
in other words
find another windmill, Quixote.
and move on.
by betweentheeyes on Sep 12, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is what I hate about any debate with you BB.
I like your passion as a Kings fan…but you have no idea what you are talking about.
This is the same as saying something like “with all do respect, you are a douche bag”. And it is exactly why you got the response that you got from me. Just because you preface something with a smiley face, doesn’t mean it makes it all right personally attack me afterward. I do know a lot about basketball. You can ask people here what they think of my knowledge. We have varying opinions, on almost everything and that is fine with me.
You have a bias for JT, but it is not rooted in any substance.
12.5 points 8.5 rebounds. 6’-11" 250 lbs. I like his size and the statistical success he has had in his first two seasons as a pro. That is where my bias is rooted.
There were times last year when the Kings were down double digits, PW put him on the bench in favor of Brockness Monster, and a rally ensued. Brockman was an undersized rookie the Kings traded for a second round pick, mind you. So the Kings improved as a team, more glue if you will, by substituting JT for a borderline talent. I have watched enough hoops over the years to tell when a players presence on the court is an overall net positive or net negative.
More often than not, JT has a net negative effect.
Don’t be this guy. You are taking small samples of isolated situations where something worked. See this is where we really have an issue, I have also watched enough hoops to tell when a player is a positive or negative and I (and others) just disagree with you on this. The reason we are here is to debate points like this but instead of debating and using evidence, you side track the discussion with trying to discredit me and others.
(1) LeBron is a Coward, Let Me Tell You Why
I PREDICTED that LeBron would choose to go back to Cleveland and that would be an act of cowardice in my opinion. I was wrong and I admitted it. You are using this statement out of context.
(2) Landry isn’t a young player. He is 26 years old, after all, he may as well enroll in SSI.
26 is not young by NBA standards and Landry will be 27 by the time the season starts. This isn’t a ridiculous statement. By 26, typical NBA players have hit a plateau. Landry might improve slightly but the fact is, the Kings have 7 or 8 players that are younger than Landry and have more time as players to improve. One of the reasons Martin was dealt was because his career time-line didn’t match the time-line of the current roster and he is only 7 months older than Landry. Landry was an older college player and an older rookie and he is definitely older for a fourth year player.
(3) JT is better than Spencer or else he would have been included in the Philly trade. Huh? Exactly.
You don’t think the Kings had the option to include either Hawes or Thompson in the Dalembert trade? Maybe you are right, but by watching the Kings last year, Westphal obviously valued Thompson more than Hawes as a player. Thompson played more minutes and he finished more games than Hawes.
(4) JT can effectively run an offense. I think I speak on behalf of all Kings fans, when I say "cringe!"
I expounded on this point here:
Add to this that outside of Cousins, Thompson is the best passer of the lot and in a pinch, the offense can run through him. I guess what I am saying, is that Thompson has the ability to do everything- maybe not at an elite level, but at a competent level and here is the kicker, Thompson can do these things at 2 positions, PF and C, something that even Cousins cannot do.
Thompson is a capable passer. Is he Brad Miller? No, but if the Kings need to run a high post or a pick and roll offense through Jason Thompson for stints of a game, they can. I know this because I watch the Kings do it last season and the season before.
I’m not sure why we have these run ins all the time BB. But it seems like every time we do, you soil the discussion with attempts to discredit me with snippits of previous arguments placed out of context. Lets just agree to disagree and move on.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
by jjham15 on Sep 12, 2010 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
LOL, I literally sat down with popcorn in my hand and read your entire encounter.
"Remember this sh*t at christmas!"-Terry Crews, The Expendables
by Bkj on Sep 12, 2010 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I love you the "Lebron is a Coward" article keeps getting thrown into this arguements
This feels like the equivalent of watching my wife and I argue about something I did that pissed her off when we were dating many years ago, only in text form.
by wallywagon11 on Sep 13, 2010 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions
lol
“I love how the” no clue what the “you” is doing in there. Subliminal?
by wallywagon11 on Sep 13, 2010 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL!
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Sep 14, 2010 6:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Don't be a wiener-face.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Sep 14, 2010 6:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Garnett is a "glue guy".
And he’s pretty good.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Sep 11, 2010 12:29 AM PDT up reply actions
For years I thought K9 was our glue guy.
He was stuck on our team with an unmovable contract. Superglue guy.
This.
by elfboy_ on Sep 11, 2010 3:33 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
He was great until the glue dried up and he was stuck on the bench thereafter
"Live Long and Prosper." - Spock
Well said
Yoour point about being the glue guy is very important, I have felt that Landry will become the 6th man once Cousins can establish himself. I think it would be difficult to have Thompson and Dalembert on the floor together because neither has a low post game, so Landry is a great compliment to Dal and vice versa.
"If my aunt had a set of nuts, she'd be my uncle"
He's only been in the NBA for two seasons
and still put up some impressive numbers.
Big men take a longer time to reach their potential than guards and SF’s, i think. Look at guys like Chris Bosh, David Lee, Joakim Noah, Al Jefferson, Al Harrington, Andray Blatche, Josh Smith, David West. All forwards/centers that made a real jump in their 3rd season or later.
The first question is whether JT will be able to continue to grow this season, with such a loaded frontcourt.
The second question is whether he can focus his improvement on the defensive side. He doesn’t have to be a great scorer or much better rebounder to be an important player on a contender. But to become an Udonis Haslem or Kurt Thomas-type of player, he has to improve a lot on defense, and avoid those silly fouls. He works hard, but he needs to get smarter, craftier.
It will be a shame if he doesn’t get the opportunity to grow in the next two seasons.
Dunking Dutchman
That is why amar'e stoudemire is one step above all of them! JK :)
"Remember this sh*t at christmas!"-Terry Crews, The Expendables
I doubt Dalembert will even be a King next season
"It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came, and the grasshopper died, and the octopus ate all his acorns. Also he got a race car. Is any of this getting through to you?"
I think too much is made about JT
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
likewise too much is being made out of Dalembert
I’d much rather hang on to JT than Dalembert
"It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came, and the grasshopper died, and the octopus ate all his acorns. Also he got a race car. Is any of this getting through to you?"
Wow, I guess because we haven't had a defender/shotblocker for so long
no one seems to realize how valuable they are
Read my posting history
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 10, 2010 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I've never been of the opinion that frontcourt players should be judged
on scoring a ton of points. You need one of each I think, a goaltender and a low post threat. If you can get all in one that’s great – who in the league now among big men is a true dual threat?
Not many.
Winning in the paint on both ends is the surest formula for consistant success IMO.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Sep 10, 2010 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions
It's just people are starting to overrate Dalembert...
…as an overall player, I’d take JT, who is not only younger but chances are he will improve.
The only time last season JT slowed down it was during the personal things that came up and he took a week off. He had yet to miss a game at that point and I think fatigue caught up to him.
He came back and quite frankly he looked great playing along side Landry, while Spencer continued to be inconsistent.
I don’t dislike Dalembert, but lets not as if he’s a lock down defender against bigs. I just find it odd how some seem to imply JT as become expendable, the Kings are rebuilding, and anyone not named Tyreke is essentially expandable. Not to mention I think Hassan has the potential of being a Michael Stewart with offense type of player for the Kings.
I do agree with HighTops and betweentheeyes, lets just let things play out and at least see how the season goes.
"It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came, and the grasshopper died, and the octopus ate all his acorns. Also he got a race car. Is any of this getting through to you?"
Oops, I think too much is made of JT's foul problems
Adjusted for 48 mpg he was 13th in forwards at 5.7 foul per game and Dalembert was 11th among Centers at 5.7 per game, and Landry was 33rd at 4.5. So, considering that JT was in only his 2nd year and had to play both the center and PF position, I believe his numbers weren’t unexpected. He did get better each season and should improve even more this season. Mostly because he’ll have someone behind him to help in case he’s beaten.
I like betweentheeyes Allstate analogy. Last year before the trade deadline we had 2 legit bigs, and now we have the luxury of 5. Enjoy it, and don’t worry about who gets what because PW is going to find minutes for them all.
If JT improves his post-up game and his ability to drive to the rim and finish, he’ll get major minutes. If he doesn’t then he’ll have the entire season to work on those skills in practice. I believe PW will take the same approach with JT that he took with Donte last season. If you learn how to play defense, young man, the minutes will come.
As far as resigning Sammy & Carl, Sammy is eligible to sign an extention, but Carl will have to enter the FA market. If the Kings resign Sammy before the trade deadline, I believe Carl will be traded rather than take the chance that the Kings lose him in Free Agency and get nothing in return. If they don’t resign Sammy, and they both enter Free Agency, I think the KIngs will try to resign Carl. Either way JT will be needed at both the PF and/or Center position until Hassan is ready to play extended minutes.
It wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world for JT to have reduced minutes this season. He was probably rushed into too many minutes in his 1st 2 seasons anyways. Get hungry young man.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Carl's UFA status is key
people see him as what we got for Kevin Martin… and we let that turn into nothing? Looks bad.
Remember we still have an extra $34 million
that we shed in Martin’s salary. That’s not exactly nothing. It might get us four more years of Landry.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
not to mention how he can't stay healthy
Its just not good to be that invested in like martin; someone that relies on his quickness and seems to get beat up a lot. That wear and tear will slow you down quickly. Like a running back in the NFL
Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."
JT doesn't go anywhere
until the future status of Dalembert and Landry is settled…
Purveyor of Bull Plop
At the trade deadline
Kings will have the ability to trade Dalembert (expiring contract) and either Omri or Donte for an all-star from a team that’s under performing, looking to rebuild
that seems to imply that we'd be over performing, or at least performing well
and what if Dalembert is a big part of that performance?
Jt hasnt even touched his ceiling
he has a great jumper with room to improve, and he obviously hasnt filled out as a rebounder yet. and plus, like smits said, he only really needs great improvement in the mental aspect of the game.
A lot of people forget how well JT played for the first couple months last year
He was looking great, averaging 15.3 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 1.7 APG in 34.3 MPG in November (on 49.6% FG%) and 16.6 PPG, 8.9 RPG, 2.1 APG in 37.3 MPG in December (on 52.5% FG%). It was after the New Year that JT had an implosion of sorts, dropping to 9.1/7.8/1.5 in 27.3 MPG in January (on an abysmal 36.7% FG%) and 9.8/8.9/.9 in 27.3 MPG in February (on a not as bad, but still horrible, 42.4% FG%). His mini resurgence came in March after he came back from injury and also played more Center next to Top Hat, where he avg’d 11.2/6.7/1.0 in 26.4 MPG (on 52.7% FG%) in March, and 14.0/10.0/2.5 in 37.7 MPG (on 50% FG%) to end the season with a bang in 6 games in April.
Thompson is too valuable to simply be lost in the rotation. He is an excellent rebounder, and a much better offensive player than people think. He also has excellent versatility, being able to play the 4 or 5 effectively.
The biggest thing with JT for me will be his defense. If JT can learn to play defense, especially without fouling, he could end up being invaluable to this team. I’m thinking of a better version of Dale Davis ( I used to think Antonio McDyess, but JT isn’t nearly as athletic as Dyess pre-injury ).
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
I have often thought of Dale Davis as a body similiar to JT
but what made Dale Davis, Antonio Davis, AC Green even Otis Thorpe notable is that they were accomplsihed contributors on accomplished winning teams.Look at JJ Hickson – not much different than JT but playing for the Cavs amplifies the good and minimized the bad (for another example see Allen, Tony and Brown, Shannon). If JT was playing witih LeBron and JJ Hickson was a King I would expect the respect for JT’s skills would be greater by the NBA viewing public.
by betweentheeyes on Sep 10, 2010 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Hickson sucks.
He gets props because he can dunk and LeBron didn’t want him traded. I wouldn’t trade JT for Hickson.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
One of my least favorite players in the league
Not really for how he plays, but because of all the hype he got because, as you say, he can dunk and he played with LeBron, giving him a huge amount of attention from the national media.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
Actually, that variation is what worries me most about JT.
He did very well at the beginning of the season when our competition was generally weak. When we faced a greater strength of schedule in January and February, his production dropped off much more than that of many of his teammates. I worry that the things he does well (energy and some strength) work well against bad frontcourts and are easily taken away by good frontcourts.
I don’t get to see that many games, so that’s a worry largely from reading recaps and watching highlights. Does anyone else wonder about the same thing, or do you who watch more games feel like he can succeed against good frontcourts?
Well, if we are going to evaluate JT's performance against good frontcourts...
…then we have to consider who he was matched up alongside. Our frontcourt has been lacking for years, and I think the individual defensive ability has been hampered by the ability of the collective. I am confident that we will see much improved defense from both JT and Landry when paired alongside Dally.
"The Kings have nothing to lose but their games."
I still attribute that slow down to fatigue
The guy had missed no games up until that point and he had a death ion the family.
I liked him and Landry playing together.
"It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came, and the grasshopper died, and the octopus ate all his acorns. Also he got a race car. Is any of this getting through to you?"
Likely rotation at the start of the season
Dalembert and Landry starting, Cousins and JT as the second unit.
Landry is going to be the offensive focus up front, and that will shift to Cousins when the second unit comes in. I see JT’s shot attempts and scoring taking a big hit, and his rebounds will also likely fall with declining minutes and the presence of Cousins and Dalembert besides him. On the plus side, he shouldn’t be as overmatched because he will be playing fewer minutes against the elite power forwards in the league.
JT is a little overvalued locally because he’s our guy, but he only got major minutes because he was playing for one of the worst teams in the league who had no other options until Landry was acquired. Put him on the Lakers, and he’s fighting Josh Powell and Mbenga for PT.
Let’s get real here. JT is the fourth big in an improved frontcourt that’s still not good enough to make serious noise in this league. If Dalembert or Landry aren’t resigned, we are going to have to get bigs to replace them or rot in Lottery Hell for a long time to come.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
Our frontcourt will make noise.
How many teams have better 4-man frontcourt rotation?
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Sep 11, 2010 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Probably a better question
How many teams don’t?
Don’t get me wrong; we are greatly improved, and we will be a lot more competitive up front. But at this point, Landry is the only borderline All-Star talent, and Cousins and JT are still young and raw. Dalembert is really the only notable defender, and they are going to pick-and-roll him to death.
You could make the case that every player in that four-man tandem would be a backup on most playoff teams playing 15-25 minutes a game at best. Hell, even here you have folks who think Landry is a backup.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
perhaps
let’s eliminate 3s (SF).
Cleveland: Varajeo, Big Z, Shaq, JJ Hickson
Boston: old KG, Perkins, Big Baby, Rasheed
Suns: Amar’e, injured Robin Lopez, Amundson
I prefer the Kings current line-up to any of those.
by betweentheeyes on Sep 11, 2010 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions
One thing is for certain
JT and Company would look a lot better if they had the supporting cast of the three teams you mentioned. But Boston and the Suns group you mentioned were still better. Eventually some of those guys will be in rest homes and you will win the argument by default.
"I know we certainly gave up a lot to get him, but we do have other players on the perimeter who we can plug in. We haven’t had anybody who we feel is a go-to guy in the post. So we gave up a lot to get a lot, and we’re real excited about adding Carl." - Paul Westphal
It all depends on JT.
not the coaching staff, not the other players. If JT shows up and plays fantastic, he cements a role. If he doesn’t… well, that’s on him too.
I am still a fan, despite his ‘limitations’ and struggles in his career. Personally, I’m not ready to give up on him.
Maybe it’s the slow learner in me (that either makes me root for him, or is the reason why I’m unable to accept he’s not going to get better) that wants to believe that maybe he’ll eventually understand what to do… the way I eventually understand what to do.
Plus there is no guarantee that Dalembert is going to re-sign. If he plays badly, we’ll eventually find a way to move his expiring. If he plays well, there’s no reason for him to accept a MLE offer from us when he could earn his worth elsewhere. Especially if his worth is cap-busting (like $80 mil over 5 years).
Same can be said about Landry.
This.
That's a hell of a question Ziller and after reading most of the posts
I still have no idea . . .
Ba-da
Dalembert would be nice if extended a few more years
until Whiteside is ready to contribute. I still see JT as a starter on this team, though with Landry taking most of the minutes off the bench.
I've said for awhile I think JT is ideally suited as a 3rd rotation big.
The question is that on the Kings or another team? Players tend to be what they are, and for the 12th pick in the 2008 draft, a big of JT’s caliber as your 3rd big is not a bad get in the overall scheme of things. Whether JT was a “reach” is an opinion of a media person’s opinion, such as Chad Ford or Jonathan Givony, and Ford said as much at the time. Givony had Thompson rated higher (I can’t remember where JT ranked on the top 100 prospect list though—just the mock draft).
When you pick in the middle portion of the 1st round, you need to come away with a rotation player. Maybe you come away with a star, but most of the time it will be a rotation player. In history there have been exceptions, but all of them came before the Internet was a major force in how fans consumed NBA knowledge. I don’t think a Kobe Bryant or Karl Malone ever slips out of the top 5 despite whatever red “flags” there are about a particular player. And Bryant, Malone, and John Stockton are all exceptions to the rule. Gilbert Arenas, for instance, is not really an exception although his high water mark for production was impressive.
The point, assuming I’m making one, is that players tend to be what they are, and unless something dramatically happens in JT’s personal development, or something happens with the personnel situation that augments JT’s skillset in a fuller capacity, the JT we’ve seen is the JT we’ll continue to see down the road. Maybe he gets savvier about fouls; maybe not.
Either way, when JT was drafted he had the possibiltiies of being a low level All-Star. That possibility still exists, however slight, and a lot of that was dependent upon Spencer Hawes reaching his potential, too. Now Hawes is gone, and JT’s skills, with one notable exception of running the floor, are consistently done by someone else whether that player is Dalembert, Landry or Cousins.
Make no mistake, though, I think JT will be gone by mid-season if the Kings can either dump Garcia/Udrin’s contracts (provided either becomes a bit burdensome) AND the Kings can also receive a backcourt player who complements Tyreke well.
Either way, one of Geoff Petrie’s decisions is to make a decision that won’t be popular with everyone (like the Kevin Martin trade), and one that is about the roster improving first & foremost. Should be intriguing to see what happens.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Sep 11, 2010 2:06 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree with much of this.
There is a small statement in this paragraph that is what intrigues me:
The point, assuming I’m making one, is that players tend to be what they are, and unless something dramatically happens in JT’s personal development, or something happens with the personnel situation that augments JT’s skillset in a fuller capacity, the JT we’ve seen is the JT we’ll continue to see down the road.
Obviously we are going to see a reduction in minutes played and statistical production out of Thompson this year due to the additions of Cousins and Dalembert and maybe to a lesser extent Whiteside. The bolded area of your statement is what really intrigues me about Thompson. I want to see how reacts to a better situation around him. Up until now, Thompson has had questionable talent surrounding him, especially questionable rebounding bigs. I want to see Thompson in a system where he is not the only player fighting for a rebound. A system where teams have to block out a star rebounder in Dalembert and what should be a damn good rebounder in Cousins. And a system where he has a shot blocker lurking so some of the big NBA players can’t keep pushing until they are close to the rim.
I’m not sure what a “successful season” means for any of the Kings big men. Because there are 4 of them, I think they are going to be judged by wins and not statistics but we will see about that. I have faith that Thompson has put in the work, let’s see how it translates when he has other players that have also put in the work to rely on.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
In case you're wondering....
I was sort of referencing the comparison to David West in that I felt that West would end up being JT’s best case scenario. (Still think that, but doubt it will happen.) West’s career didn’t take off until Chris Paul came around.
I do agree about a definition of a successful season for Whiteside, Cousins or Thompson. Dalembert & Landry are what they are and the Kings should be able to rely on both to bring what they can to the table as consistently as possible.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I have been a JT "fanboy" in the past and believed for a while that the JT we saw early last season was the real JT
The thing that concerns me about JT is not his lack of footwork in the post, the stupid ticky tack fouls or his constant complaining to the refs or the somewhat mechanical nature of his game but his mysterious disappearance during the middle of the season. When JT came back from the death in the family and the back injury he was a entirely different player.
My concern is that JT lacks the mental grit to become a much better player. He’s too emotional and allows the refs calling fouls on him, he whines when fouls aren’t called on him and he allows other players to determine how well he plays in the low post. Instead of using these perceived slights to motivate himself to play better he is constantly distracted by his overreaction to them.
I loved TZ’s post, one of my favorites of the 30Q run up to training camp discussion topics. Great comments as well. I think that for JT, this season’s effects on his future with the Kings will be far more dependent on how he plays and not on how many minutes he plays. I hope we don’t trade him but can live with it if our frontcourt sans JT plays better than the frontcourt with him.
As far as Daly goes, shoot, he hasn’t played with the Kings any more minutes than DMC has. Because I have literally no idea how the next CBA will affect player salaries I can’t comment on what he is worth in the open market. I’m sure I’ll get bashed for this but I would look to see what kind of contract Dampier signs after he is released by the Bobcats. Both players are overpaid 5s who game is based primarily on rebounding and defense.
"I make love to pressure" - Stephen Jackson
I don't think this is bashing but
Dampier is 35 and is likely to get a 1 year contract, while Dalembert is 29 and pretty much still in his prime and will be looking for a long term deal for security. Add to that the fact that Sammy has higher career numbers in pts, rebs, and blocks, and I really don’t think Erick can expect half the money that Sammy will get.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
HT - I know that Damp is considerably older
but my point was that both of them are overpaid for their production and that we can probably get an idea what Dalembert will command on the open market by seeing what Dampier gets after he gets waived. I would bet all the money I have that he gets waived (if I was a betting man). My crystal ball is very foggy, but my guess is that Daly gets paid closer to MLE type money rather than $7-8 mil per year.
It’s possible that the outlines of a new CBA, acceptable to both sides is in place by the trade deadline but I doubt it. It’s more likely that teams will have a clearer idea of what it is going to look like by then. My guess is under the new CBA $7-8 mil is going to be a hefty salary and the owners are going to be leaning to the stingy side as opposed to some of the ludicrous contracts we saw given out this summer. We’ll see.
What’s really interesting to me is what the young players like JT and the rest of our young players are going to get when they are offered extensions or become RFAs? Probably not what they and their agents were expecting when they were first drafted
"I make love to pressure" - Stephen Jackson
I understand, they both produce similar numbers
I don’t believe Dalembert will be looking for anywhere near what he got paid this year. But, if Gortat can get $7M per year ($34M over 5 years) as a backup, then I think Sammy could easily get that kind of money or better.
Changes to the game like the hand check rule, have made if very difficult to stop guard penetration. That only makes players like Dalembert that much more valueable. As far as the CBA goes, the owners paid the players more than $300M more than they were required to by the currenct CBA. So, unless there is some sort of hard cap or changes made to limit overpaying for Free Agents, there is going to be some billionaire owner who’s willing to go deep into the Luxury Tax to bring in someone with Dalembert’s skills.
That’s why I hope the Kings can work out an extention with Sammy before the trade deadline. I would solidify the frontcourt for the next 3-4 years, and take the pressure off our young guys while they develop their defensive game.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Sep 12, 2010 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
JT Should START
Jt should start, it’s just the way it is. He can bang play D and rebound and he DOES have a very good mid range shot. You want Landry coming off the bench, why, he can light it up right away and give the 2nd unit a big push with his points. He’s also to small to be a starting power forward. Jt has had grrowing pains and keeps getting better. Last year he played great at the start of the season and the Kings had a 13 and 14 record he was a big reason for it. Let him grow. Landry has to be kept to let him go means Kings don’t want to win. Dalembert is one and done, Cousins starts next year.
Kings make playoffs next year. And they will surprise people this year. Evans will be a beast this year and in 2 years will be one of the top 10 plaers in NBA
by rivercitysports on Sep 13, 2010 8:48 AM PDT reply actions
Good thread
Interesting debate
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
JT
Lowly Pacers fan here. There are quite a few Pacer fans who are intrigued by Thompson. Is there a reasonable trade out there where the Pacers could get Thompson? Anyone interested in a pot-smoking Brandon Rush?
I seriously doubt that the Kings make any front court moves until the future of Landry & Dalembert is determined
If the Kings decide to let Dalembert’s contract expire and don’t try to resign him, they’re going to need JT to backup Landry & Cousins. Or if they cant resign Landry, then JT would be the starting PF with Whiteside backing up Cousins & JT. Either way, only the resigning of Dalembert & Landry, makes JT expendable, and that won’t be until next summer.
Only with the availablity of a all-star player, would it make sense to move JT at this time especially since he’s still on his rookie scale contract.
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