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Around SBN: Win or Lose, Boston Celtics' New Big 3 Era A Success

Race To A Championship - Ranking All 30 Teams

 

Happy New Years STR!  I’ve come full circle.  When I was 17, the ultimate New Years Eve was watching movies all night with my parents and having Sparkling Cider at midnight.  For the next decade, my New Years consisted of way too much alcohol, making out with strangers and other escapades so debaucherous they would make a drunken sailor blush with embarrassment.  Now here I am again, having just enjoyed a night of movies with my folks topped off with a glass of champagne at midnight.  

 

I guess for me, that’s progress.  But what about our beloved Kings?  Where do they stand?  Most people here accept we have a bright future. But what’s the ultimate goal here?  I say it’s championship or bust.  

 

So with that in mind, I present the patented SPTSJUNKIE Race To A  Championship rankings. As you may guess, these rankings are gauging one thing and one thing only, how close is each team to winning a championship.  This factors in current roster, future potential, cap space, assets and this year’s potential draft pick.

 

Ok, enough blabber, rankings below the jump:

Star-divide

1A – Heat – Something tells me they won’t win this season, but they are the safest bet of any team to win at least one ring in the next 3 seasons.  If I were a betting man, I’d say next year.  Really don’t think I need to justify this pick any more.

 

1B – Lakers – Putting them as 1B because they are just as likely to win it all this year.  Regardless of early season struggles, they know how to flip the switch.  Only have them below the Heat, because their window is smaller.  As Kobe deteriorates, they will enter the current "Spurs Zone" where they look good on paper, but are never really a threat to win it all.

 

3 – Celtics – Really, they are in the same position as the Lakers, but with an even smaller window.  Almost bumped them down more, but they probably have the third best chance of winning it all this year.  However, this is likely their last chance.

 

4 – Magic – Another dark horse for this year’s crown.  They have a lot of great talent and moveable assets if they need to rework their roster next season.  Although to win a title, they really need Howard to reach the next level.  He can still be slowed a bit too easily for a superstar.

 

5 – Thunder – I know this will be the first real shocker on the list.  I’ll get more into negatives of other "contenders" in their rankings, but the Thunder are just barely on the outside of the elite teams.  They have a bonafide superstar, a great #2 and a lot of talented role players.  On top of that they have numerous tradeable assets and ample cap space.  They are not a true contender this year, but should be for the next 4-5 years at least.

 

6A – Mavericks – Below the Thunder because I just don’t trust that their current roster can win it all.  The only reason they aren’t way down the list is that Nowitzki is still a superstar and Cuban will spend money to help bring in more talent.  They could conceivably make another trade or two that put the complementary pieces in place.  Their window is not very big though.  If they don’t make a move, they are headed downward despite their great regular season record.  They would be smart to push for Carmelo this year and then blow everything up if they still can’t win it all and he leaves in the offseason.

 

6B – Bulls – Similar in some ways to the Mavs, but heading in an upward trajectory.  They also need another piece or two to be true contenders.  Have them below the Mavs simply because another move or two this year could produce a championship for the battle-tested Mavs.  The Bulls are probably another year or two away from being able to challenge the Heat regardless of what moves they make this season.

 

8 – Knicks – Admittedly a speculative pick on my part.  Felton and Stoudemire are not taking them beyond a first round exit.  However, Carmelo and Chris Paul really want to play for them and there is no denying the appeal of the market.  They will have no cap space to sign these players, but do have an assortment of young players with some upside and expiring contracts that could help them make a Sign & Trade.

 

9 – Jazz – Hesitated to put them up here, because I’m not fully convinced Deron will ever be a true superstar.  He may end up being a great #2 for some team.  However, he is borderline and with Jefferson, Okur, Kirilenko they have a nice core.  They will definitely need a game-changing trade though if they want to win it all.  With their assets and lack of cap space, I’m just not sure how they would get there.  If Hayward turns out to be a bust, that miscalculation with the 9th pick, could be their downfall.

 

10A – Clippers – OMG?!?!?!  I know, this is one of the 5 signs of the apocalypse.  In fact, I think lightning struck my house as I wrote this.  But The Posterizer + Gordon + young assets + cap space – Del Negro - Sterling = "So you’re saying there’s a chance."

 

10B – Kings – Either Evans or Cousins could be a superstar.  We have young assets, expiring contracts, ample cap space and even with a late season run should have a top 8 pick in the draft (most likely still top 5).  Our window won’t open for at least 2-3 more years, but we are heading there in a very organic, strategic direction reminiscent of the Thunder.

 

10C – Nets – Have largely the same combination of young stars, tradeable assets and a likely high pick in this year’s draft that the Clippers and Kings have.  However, they will have less cap space and long term I would rank the Lopez-Harris combination below the Clippers and Kings top 2.

 

13 – Timberwolves – Kahn has done a better job of assembling young talent and undervalued assets than people give him credit for.  The team is moving in a good direction.  I just don’t know how all of these pieces will fit together.  Frankly, Rubio seems like a terrible fit for what they have in place and I’m not sure they can afford to be bad for another 3 years while he adjusts to the NBA.  Again, Kahn has accumulated undervalued assets well, but now he needs to bundle those for real talent that fits together.  The fact that he has not proven he can do this before, along with the Wolves lack of a potential superstar leaves them a notch below the previous 3 teams.

 

14A – Wizards – Mainly because they already have Wall.  Add that to some young talent, another high draft pick and cap space and they are building something.  However, they are a year behind the other teams listed above in their rebuilding timeline.

 

14B – Warriors - Hard team to rank because they have some nice pieces, but I feel they lack any potential superstar.  Curry to me is a great #2.  Ellis could also be a nice number 2, though I have a harder time seeing him co-exist next to another star.  They have some nice young pieces, but little cap room and will probably have a mid to late lottery pick.  One nice trade though and they could move up this list quickly.

 

16A – Pacers – Poor man’s version of the Warriors.  They have some young talent and a good trade could change their fortunes quickly.  However, I don’t see Granger or Hibbert having the potential to carry a team anywhere, although both could be great complementary pieces around a star player.  Sadly, that will likely be on another team unless Indiana makes the mistake of giving them a Joe Johnson/Andre Iguodala franchise-killing contract.

 

16B – Bucks – Switch Jennings and Bogut for Granger and Hibbert.  Subtract some of the aforementioned young talent and you have the Bucks.

 

18 – Nuggets – This is a bit speculative as I imagine they trade Melo for something.  A combination of young players and picks that will give them a base to work with in the future.  Sadly, they are just good enough now, they probably will be looking at a late lottery pick even if Melo is traded.

 

19 – Raptors - Bargnani, Derozan and Davis give the Raptors 3 potential starters/role players.  Calderon is making himself tradeable again.  And they should have a good draft pick this year.  They also may have some cap space.

 

20A – Rockets – Here we start the "race to the bottom" for teams who will need to blow everything up to build themselves back up.  Houston has a savvy GM and a couple of good young players.  I just don’t trust that they are ready to blow it up yet.  My potentially misplaced faith in Morey keeps them atop the junk heap.

 

20B – Trailblazers – This one is painful.  They should be much higher on the list.  Sadly Roy’s career is likely nearing a premature end.  Oden has more hope, but there’s a 99% chance it happens for a different franchise.  Aldridge is most likely a #3 player even at his peak.  They do have some expiring contracts and young talent though.  Although, they may have to trade Aldridge to become bad enough to get the star player they will need in the draft.

 

20C – 76ers – Really in the same position as the first two teams listed, but with a worse cap situation.  However, they also have the most tradeable current "star" in Iguodala and should have a very high draft pick this year.

 

23 – Hornets – Similar to the teams in the 19 slots, but with less tradeable assets outside of their star.  They can at least get assets for Paul, but my guess is that does not take place until next season, which will delay their rebuilding and any chance at a high draft pick for another season.

 

24 –Cavaliers – Not much young talent, but cap space and a top 5 pick should get them moving in the right direction again.

 

25 – Suns – This team is going to be lucky to make the 2nd round of the playoffs.  They do have a number of expiring contracts though.  I’m hoping the acquisition of Vince Carter (and his big expiring contract) means the Suns are taking one last shot and then blowing things up if it doesn’t work.  They can still get value for Nash this offseason and start the process of rebuilding.

 

26 – Spurs – I may get blasted for putting them this low, but I stand by it.  I’m sorry, but I just don’t see their current core winning a championship.  Duncan is declining.  He may be able to win another ring as a cog on a great team, but he’s no longer a superstar capable of leading a team to a championship anymore.  Parker and Ginobili don’t fill that role either.  And they don’t have the assets to pull in a star via trade.  It looks like they will try to make another run or two before rebuilding.  They have managed their cap well, so I assume they can blow things up rather quickly.  However, I’m also guessing that Poppovich won’t stick around for a rebuild, so barring a miracle, it will be awhile before we see the Spurs contending for another title.

 

27A – Grizzlies – They have talent, just not enough.  Most trades I can see them pulling will move them laterally and not to contender status.  Sadly, I think they are stuck in perpetual mediocrity of late lottery/early playoff exits.  The Thabeet pick and Conley extensions were franchise altering mistakes.

 

27B – Hawks – See 26A, but Joe Johnson makes more money than Gay and should deteriorate sooner and be untradeable. At least the Grizzlies have a chance to trade Gay eventually.  Josh Smith’s game also won’t age gracefully unless he considerably ups his jump shot and other base skills.  If Horford is smart, he’ll be playing elsewhere when his contract is up.

 

29 – Bobcats – Few tradable assets? Check.  Well over the cap? Check.  Lack of young talent? Check.  Terrible GM and ownership? Double check.  Killing professional basketball in Charlotte? Priceless.

 

30 – Pistons – Like the Bobcats but with worse contracts and somehow worse young talent.  At least Augustine, Thomas and Wallace can get something worthwhile.  But Stuckey, Monroe and Daye?  This team is going to need an amazing top 3 pick to salvage this.  And frankly even if they get a slam dunk superstar that Dumar’s can’t pass on (although he might try), with their current cap situation, I don’t trust Dumars to build a nucleus to keep him past his rookie contract.

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

Comment 74 comments  |  10 recs  | 

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I may get blasted for putting them this low, but I stand by it.

There are a lot of people who would disagree with you about the Spurs just simply because they have a core who has win 3 rings together (Duncan, Ginobili, Parker) and a host of other high quality talent that complements them well.

Interesting list and thought provoking. Well done SPTS.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jan 1, 2011 8:03 AM PST reply actions  

Count me in as one of them

First of all, rec’d for the post – a tremendous effort and a lot of good stuff.

Regarding San Antonio and specifically Duncan, you really need to watch what the Spurs are doing right now on the court. They have become a true 3-headed monster with Parker, Ginobli and Duncan, making them a nightmare to defend. And that enables guys like Blair and Jefferson and Hill to make the most of their opportunities.

Duncan has not really fallen off one bit from an efficiency standpoint – they have just shifted some of the offensive focus away from him and they are monitoring his minutes. Really, I think that they are very similar to the way that Boston is handling KG.

Put another way, I’ll put my money on a 60 year old Tim Duncan before I bet a penny on a Donald Sterling-owned team.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 1, 2011 10:31 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Tim Duncan has dropped off offensively....

…from an efficiency if you measure it by career TS% vs what he’s performing at this season. That said, I agree that their team is an offensive monster. They have 7 guys in their rotation who are having 55 TS% and 4 of them are above 60% (Matt Bonner, George Hill, Richard Jefferson and Manu Ginobili). THAT is incredibly efficient anyway you slice it. Of those guys, they are a bit above their career norms, but their isn’t a dramatic leap, unless George Hill counts, and this is only his 3rd year, in any of their TS%. That is other than Richard Jefferson, and he’s had several high 50 TS% seasons, and one 60+ TS%, in his past seasons playing with Jason Kidd, and even then Jefferson has a career 56.5 TS% at that.

That said, other than Duncan’s shooting, I agree that he really hasn’t dropped off yet. Despite Pop’s insistence that the Spurs haven’t played the kind of defense they need to play, apparently Duncan hasn’t been one of their problems defensively (which isn’t that surprising considering how effective defensively Duncan has been through his career), and their offense has been made up by everyone else on the roster it seems.

I don’t know that if San Antonio has a great shot at a championship this season or next, but at some point Duncan will fade and then SA’s championships aspirations are kaput. I do agree that Duncan is being handled in a similar way to KG.

And as far as a 60 year old vs a Donald Sterling owned team, it’s hard to argue against that.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jan 1, 2011 11:38 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I don't disagree with either of you

about how well the Spurs are playing, but in a 7 game series do you really think they can beat the Lakers, Heat, or Celtics?

I think they are a better team than last season, but I think a more talented team with a true superstar will take them out in the playoffs. And I personally don’t see them improving next season with Duncan and Ginobili another year older.

However, it’s just my opinion and I respect yours as well.

Also, Reke’d Section for the 60 year old Duncan > Sterling line.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 1, 2011 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think the Spurs should be that low this season or next possibly if they continue to be in the mix for rings.

However, beyond that? Yeah, I’d drop them. I would say there is the Heat, Magic & Celtics as the legitimate title contenders in the East (which was the expectation coming in), and the Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, Thunder and Jazz in the West (pretty close to the expectations too). And hell, the Jazz is a pretty risky inclusion on this list. And I suppose if Noah comes back in the full swing of things in Chicago, you can add the Bulls too.

All in all, that’s pretty nice that you have so many championship contenders. Makes for a much more interesting regular season and playoffs.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jan 1, 2011 12:46 PM PST up reply actions  

I think that the Spurs are capable of beating any of those teams,

but I would favor at least the Lakers over them. I think that the Heat and Celtics are more of a push – it would be hard to bet against them if they got by the Lakers. One thing that I am certain of – the line of separation is thinner than 3 and 26.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 1, 2011 1:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree with you Sections

I would never count out the Spurs. If they are healthy, they can stand toe to toe with any team. They have always been able to count on Duncan to dominate down low both on defense and offense. This looks like the deepest Spurs team in awhile. Tony Parker is playing well and Manu is the third best guard in the league. They have a ton of motivation as this seems to be their last stand.

"You need to get real!"

by MJ5 on Jan 1, 2011 2:49 PM PST up reply actions  

And 1 -

I take Pop over Spoestra or Rivers in a tight game where a coach’s ingame decision can have an impact.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 1, 2011 3:11 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Plus

They have a much better and stronger frontline to combat other teams

"You need to get real!"

by MJ5 on Jan 1, 2011 3:20 PM PST up reply actions  

This is just one of those cases

where I highly respect your opinion, but personally believe the Spurs are playing over their heads right now.

Agining teams normally cool it early and turn it on as the season progresses. I will be they cool as the season goes on. Their age will show. Ginobili will suffer a somewhat minor injury that plagues him the rest of the season. I just think their window is closed.

Now if they win it all, gladly point me back to these rankings and I will eat crow.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 1, 2011 11:55 PM PST up reply actions  

It's not a function of eating crow

And I agree that they will not maintain their current pace, as their current pace would have them finishing at 72-10. Funny thing is, they could go 28-21 the rest of the way, and they would finish 57-25, which earned the Lakers top spot in the West last year. But ranking them 26 when you have fellow “old” teams Boston and Dallas in the top 10? It’s just way too big of a chasm for me.

You have 5 of the 6 current best teams in the league ranked between 1 & 6, with San Antonio at 26. Meanwhile, the Spurs are the only team to have 3 players in the top 25 in PER (Manu 15 & 3 at SG, Duncan 20 & 3 at C, Parker 25 and 6 at PG). They are all getting adequate rest (Parker ranks 61st in minutes, Manu 87th, Duncan 109th).

Each of the guys that they have that are getting 20 minutes a night or more (there are seven of them) were with the team last year. That’s great continuity. Their head coach has been there for over 15 years, and has four world titles.

It’s your list, and it’s a good one. You’re entitled to put it together however you want. 26 seems way too low for San Antonio, in my opinion.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 2, 2011 9:18 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I like the list with the exception of San Antonio's spot.

That’s the biggest negative, and that’s only because we should be talking about a championship won this season, not 5 years from now or whatever.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jan 2, 2011 9:22 AM PST up reply actions  

TIIIIIIIIIMMMMMMAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
iashwash, you are the voice of reason - Holmdel

by iashwash on Jan 1, 2011 3:14 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not sure how you could rank the Mavs at 6, and the Spurs at 26 when they are so similar in terms of age and current talent level

And I think the Rockets are quite a bit underrated on your list – they have a lot of young talent and no bad contracts. But if you dropped the Knicks a few spots and replaced them with the Spurs, I think I’d agree with your top 10.

by Charlieb on Jan 1, 2011 4:28 PM PST reply actions  

The Clippers,Kings, and Wizards should be far lower

The Wizards really I don’t get. They have John Wall, but what else?

The Clippers have been perpetually below average. Yes they have Eric Gordon and Blake Griffiin, and Aminu who looks like he’ll be okay. I don’t see what else they have that warrants them so high. They have maybe the worst owner in all of the NBA. They also have Baron Davis’s terrible contract and Kaman is always injured. Their bench is sucky. Also they have to give the Thunder their first rounder for Bledsoe.
I don’t think the Kings can be ranked so high either. paul westphal and Petrie both may soon be fired. Cousins hasn’t shown much except flashes and has been a giant headache. Tyreke is going to be a great player, but has that foot issue to deal with. They have a ton of cap space, but who will sign here? I don’t see another big talent player they have on the roster.

"You need to get real!"

by MJ5 on Jan 1, 2011 4:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Interesing, where would you rank those 3?

Clippers – I agree their owner could sink them. But Griffin looks like a superstar. He could rip out the hearts of Clippers fans and leave after 4 years, but as of today, they look like they are in a position to vastly improve. They will also have another high pick this year and while Davis’ contract stinks, the rest of their deals are all cap friendly.

Wizards – Aren’t that high. But Wall gives them a potential superstar. They will have cap space and another top 5 pick. They need to make the right picks, but they are in a position to be a contender if they make the right moves.

Kings – You are less optimistic than I. And yes, it does count on development, but the potential is there. If the downside is true, than we go backwards in the rankings, if Reke gets over his foot problems like Rose with his injury last year and Cousins continues to develop and our pick gives us a Big 3, we are in great shape.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 2, 2011 12:09 AM PST up reply actions  

The only way Griffin will leave is after 5 years.q

Because that’s the only way he can leave La-La land without Donald Sterling matching a contract. In otherwords, after his 4th season he’ll be a restricted FA and the Clippers can match any contract Griffin gets (which is what happened to Elton Brand when he did try to leave).

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jan 2, 2011 8:15 AM PST up reply actions  

He's in his 2nd year

that is why SPTS said 4 years.

"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent"- Qui-Gon Jinn

by tomkanti on Jan 2, 2011 8:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah but his 3rd season will be the 4th year he's been paid.

I see your point TK, but I’m not sure SPTS realizes what’s going on with Griffin that way. Maybe I’m wrong on that though. Doesn’t really matter.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jan 2, 2011 9:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Rookie contracts continue

whether the players play or not. So even though Blake will have only played 3 years at his 4th season, the will be a RFA.

"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent"- Qui-Gon Jinn

by tomkanti on Jan 2, 2011 9:20 AM PST up reply actions  

TK I'm not sure what your point here is.

Blake Griffin is in year 2 of his contract, and has 2 more years until he becomes a RFA (under the current CBA).

Hopefully we’re clear.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jan 2, 2011 9:22 AM PST up reply actions  

I don''t know really where I would rank them

I think I would move up the Spurs, Rockets, and either Warriors or Pacers.

"You need to get real!"

by MJ5 on Jan 2, 2011 3:22 PM PST up reply actions  

My thoughts on both

1 – Mavs over Spurs because Nowitzki is still in his prime where he can carry the Mavs for long stretches and in clutch situations. I don’t think Duncan or Ginobili can do that consistently anymore. Also, because Cuban is willing to spend seemingly indefinitely, the Mavs have more talent to trade (for upgrades) and would probably be more willing to take back a bad contract or very good player with a huge contract (like an Iguodala or Gerald Wallace) than the Spurs.

2 – To me, the Rocket’s young talent is Brooks, Lowry, Hill, and Williams. That’s not that great. Brooks is a #3 type of player. They certainly aren’t acquiring a superstar with those pieces. And they are good enough that they would need extreme luck to get a Top 3 pick if they miss the playoffs. Their cap situation can become good quickly, which is why they are the first of the teams listed who need to blow up and start over. But the team’s above them have already bottomed out and have either better young players and/or cap space.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 2, 2011 12:01 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm OK with ranking the Mavs above the Spurs for the reasons you mentioned

But 20 spots higher? That’s a little nutty. At 29-4 right now, the Spurs are off to one of the 10 best starts in NBA history. Given their age, I can see why you wouldn’t trust them to keep it up all season, but if the Spurs won the championship this year, there aren’t a whole lot of people that would be surprised.

And the Rockets have more young talent than you think. I think the guys you mentioned would make a decent group of young talent for a playoff team, but they also have Chase Budinger, Courtney Lee, Patrick Patterson, and whoever they get for Yao Ming this year. Plus Kevin Martin is only 27. We were calling him young talent just 2 years ago – he’s not over the hill yet.

I like the post though. Reasonable rankings for the most part, and a few controversial ones to get conversation going.

by Charlieb on Jan 2, 2011 6:39 AM PST up reply actions  

Well I think where the Spurs are throwing some people

is that this ranking is not a traditional power ranking, it’s only about who can win a championship next. Section, Pookey and others have made good cases why they believe the Spurs have a chance to win this year. I personally think they have no chance of winning it all this year.

Reasonable people can disagree with me, but if you grant my hypothesis for a moment that this current Spurs core cannot win a ring, the discrepancy makes sense, because they will have to blow up their core and rebuild from scratch. A process they probably will not even start for at least 2 years. Factor in that the Spurs will probably have to rebuild through the draft (mega-stars aren’t lining up to sign in San Antonio) and Poppovich will probably retire and once they blow things up in 2 years, it will probably take them 4-5 years before they can organically get back into contention.

Other teams with cap space and high lottery picks will have the chance to contend before that.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 2, 2011 3:45 PM PST up reply actions  

The idea of the best team in basketball right now having zero chance at a championship this year is the part that's throwing people

At this point I’d probably pick the Lakers or Heat over the Spurs too, but the Spurs are playing great basketball and have a very real chance this year. Vegas has their odds at 8:1 to win this year’s championship. That’s about an 11% chance, which seems about right to me. Even if you thought a 5% chance was more realistic, that would be better odds than most rebuilding teams have to win a championship in the next ten years.

by Charlieb on Jan 2, 2011 4:50 PM PST up reply actions  

As for the Rockets

Most of those young players are fairly marginal. Buddinger and Lee are role players at best (bench role players most likely). Patterson we’ll see. There’s still enough mystery surrounding him he probably has more value. Martin is the interesting one. He certainly isn’t old, but he’s not a star that can lead a team and I’m not sure if a team blowing things and and looking to trade their star would want to trade for a 27/28 year old SG who makes 11 million a year. If the Rockets want to blow things up, they can probably trade Martin to a contender though for expiring contracts and a young player or 1st round pick.

My main issue with them then is what I mentioned in the article. They are going to have to blow things up and probably acquire a superstar through the draft before they can be a contender. With their current record, they will be looking at another late lottery/high playoff pick this season. So even if they blow things up in the off-season, they won’t have a shot at a Top 5 pick until next year.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 2, 2011 4:25 PM PST up reply actions  

You're giving too much credit to the idea of "blowing things up" and rebuilding

The vast majority of teams that do this don’t end up going anywhere. What is the last team that employed this strategy and won a championship within 10 years? I can’t think of one right now. Giving a team that has no useful pieces (like the Raptors) more credit than a team that has a few talented players (like the Rockets) doesn’t make sense to me.

by Charlieb on Jan 2, 2011 4:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, it's normally not a straight line

and it’s more complicated because big market teams like the Lakers can always sign top talent if they manage their cap well. Small market teams need the draft and/or luck.

The Spurs were insanely lucky with Robinson’s injury and then getting Duncan.

In terms of other recent champions: The Pistons didn’t fully bottom out, but came close after losing Hill. The Heat bottomed out. The Celtics bottomed out. Then all 3 of them took different rebuilding paths with their high picks.

I agree there’s more than 1 way to get a star, but it takes talent to trade for that superstar. I just don’t see how the Rockets get there without a top draft pick. And blowing things up doesn’t mean giving away everything of value and starting from 0. But letting the older veterans go and rebuilding with youth.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 2, 2011 5:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Wait Wait Wait

U have us winning a ring before the Spurs win their next one? WOW, They will be in the top 3 in the West and top 5 in the NBA, while we wont even make the playoffs and you have us winning a ring b4 them?

by shadowchicken on Jan 2, 2011 3:20 AM PST reply actions  

A nice read SPTS,

But don’t you think that the Twolves should at least be the same as where we are, while both of us being below the Nets?

I’d say Minny has done a good job of assembling talent, as you mentioned, and I do believe that they have a potential superstar that’s going a bit unnoticed this season in Beasley. Beasley and Love form a nice one-two punch; Flynn is trying to find his role coming off the bench has will likely be good and you have Wes finding his own; key in Brewer, Webster and Ellington as the 7, 8 and 9 the only position you really find a hole is would lie at center. Some Wolves fans believe the answer to be Darko (Good Luck) but say they land a prospect (or project) like Motiejunas/Kanter in the draft; Is it too farfetched to say they are progressing more than our Kings?

"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds

by JuMowbray on Jan 2, 2011 5:13 AM PST reply actions  

Sorry for the writing errors, it’s early in Toronto..

"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds

by JuMowbray on Jan 2, 2011 5:33 AM PST up reply actions  

It's always 9am somewhere Mowbray.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jan 2, 2011 8:16 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't think the Wolves should be at or above the Kings

I’d say that the two teams are very close in performance right now (the Wolves have a slightly better record, but I think the Kings are under-performing a tad and the Wolves over-performing a tad, especially Beasley). You mention Beasley and Love as Minny’s one-two, but would you trade ‘Reke and Cousins for those two? I’m a big fan of Kevin Love, but I’d much rather have Boogie’s potential right now. Add in the fact that the Wolves have quite a bit more long-term money locked up in mediocre players than the Kings do (Darko, Ridnoir, Pekovic), and I think it’s quite fair to have the Wolves a couple of spots behind the Kings. Obviously, none of this is exact science, and it’s hard to be completely objective when your own team is involved, but I think the Kings are probably right where they should be in this list, when you consider the potential of Evans and Cousins and the very very clean cap situation moving forward.

"If you're going to lead the orchestra, you have to turn your back on the audience." -Geoff Petrie

by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 2, 2011 10:59 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I thought a lot about the Wolves

I love their core. And you are right they could leapfrog us, I almost made them 10D, but I don’t feel they have a potential #1 right now. I like the Wolves core and depth. They could definitely make 1 good trade and be much higher on the list. I just don’t trust Kahn to do that yet. They are certainly right there with us, I just like the upside of our top 2 better.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 2, 2011 3:50 PM PST up reply actions  

There are any number of things I could disagree with

but you have a reasonable explanation for each teams placing that is well thought out and certainly made sense to you when you created the list. With the exception of 20A, 20B and 26 I can pretty much agree with the bottom 10 in some order.

Regardless of Duncan’s decline such as it is, I don’t think you give enough credit to the Spurs organizational chops. On some days I’m 100% “In Petrie We Trust”. I’m down everyday for “In R.C. Buford we trust”. As long as the Spurs star core doesn’t all fall apart during the same season I have a great deal of confidence in the Spur’s FO ability to retool on the fly or in the worst case tank like a mother in order to get the piece to keep the machinery humming.

"It ain't Chinese algebra" - Tony Allen from Basketbawful

by Bluejohn on Jan 2, 2011 4:49 PM PST reply actions  

Interesting

Ok, other people have voiced their opinions on the Spurs and Rockets. What’s your take on the Trailblazers? Do you think they should be higher or lower? Am I not giving Cho enough credit?

I will be very interested to see what the Spurs do after this core. Buford has done a great job, but his tenure started with Duncan. Being a GM becomes a much easier job when you have one of the 10-20 greatest players of all time leading your team. Over the last decade, he has made some great moves but has not been infallible. I am very interested in seeing how he handles a rebuild, because he clearly is a great mind.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 2, 2011 5:18 PM PST up reply actions  

I like the idea - I just think ESPN's methodology with the point system is asinine

That’s why I don’t like Hollinger. He likes using numbers to make subjective judgment calls look like objective facts.

by Charlieb on Jan 2, 2011 5:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah that's kind of why I did this

I don’t like ESPN’s future rankings, as the point systems seem off and they don’t really gear it towards winning it all.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 2, 2011 5:14 PM PST up reply actions  

by the way, sorry I didn't mean to say "Hey why did you write this?"

I just don’t see the point in telling you that you should have rated X team over V team just because there are so many unknown variables involved.

I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.

by wallywagon11 on Jan 2, 2011 5:16 PM PST up reply actions  

No worries, that was my guess

You’re a very respectful poster, so I didn’t think you would post something just to arbitrarily criticize.

And you’re right, a lot can change very quickly. If I do this again in the offseason or next year, it will be interesting to see how the needle has moved. Luck also plays a bigger factor than most people probably want to admit.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 2, 2011 5:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah - I definitely prefer your method

Predicting the future landscape of the league is a crapshoot, so pretending to use some kind of scientific method is pointless. You went with your gut and backed it up admirably.

by Charlieb on Jan 2, 2011 5:28 PM PST up reply actions  

We're ranked above San Antonio?

Or above any team at all, for that matter?

That’s my only problem with this. Switch us with San Antonio, and from there switch us again with Detroit and I’d call it good.

"Where hope goes to die"

by napg on Jan 2, 2011 9:33 PM PST reply actions  

You think Detroit with all those awful contracts have a better future than the Kings?

by Josh L on Jan 3, 2011 1:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Detroit is in Hell

almost literally if you’ve ever been there.

"But screw your courage to the stiking place - and we'll not fail"
Macbeth Act I, Sc VII

by lietothegirls on Jan 3, 2011 4:49 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I'd rather not go to Detroit.

I’ve been to LA and it’s bad enough.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jan 3, 2011 5:06 PM PST up reply actions  

It's not that I think the Pistons have a bright future.

Rather, I just think this team hasn’t quite hit its nadir yet. I have a feeling that the Tyreke we have now is the best we’re going to get from now on, we’re not going to be able to hold on long enough for Cousins to grow into being a professional, and no other worthwhile player is going to stay with the team out of free will.

"Where hope goes to die"

by napg on Jan 4, 2011 5:22 PM PST up reply actions  

So to summarize

You think that 3 months of injured Tyreke trumps his entire high school, college and ROY season. And that Cousins who has been improving rapidly won’t mature or get very good over the next 4 seasons?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I’m at a loss for what to say. Other than the fact that from your handle, you seem to have something against Tyreke that goes beyond his plantar faciatis.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 4, 2011 5:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Look at my signature.

“Where hope goes to die.”

Nothing against Tyreke – I’m just pessimistic by nature. To give you an idea of just how pessimistic I am, at the start of the 2001-2002 season, I was afraid we wouldn’t even make the playoffs (before Webber’s ankle injury in preseason that year, mind you).

I had this feeling over the offseason that Tyreke was going to take a big step backward this year; it’s just too easy for defenses to adjust to the tendencies of an unathletic slasher who can neither jump nor shoot. Unless and until Tyreke develops an excellent jumpshot, teams are going to be able to take away his driving ability night in, night out – and I don’t see Tyreke ever developing that jump shot. Somebody else on this site expressed a concern that Tyreke would be the next Lionel Simmons, and I concur 100%.

As for Cousins? I think he’ll develop into a decent center with time – perhaps a bigger Antonio Davis. However, it’s going to take him several years to get there; his offensive efficiency is very, very low, so his overall output is going to go down his sophomore year and beyond, and he’s going to continue to be a problem for team chemistry. By the time he’s rounded into shape on the court and off, we’ll have had to start over on our rebuilding project.

Cousins might very well become an All-Star, but it won’t be for us.

"Where hope goes to die"

by napg on Jan 4, 2011 10:07 PM PST up reply actions  

And I thought I drowned in pessimism from time to time.

You take the taco for the “pessimists pessimist” napg.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jan 4, 2011 10:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Haha, you should change your handle to Eeyore

And I mean that in the nicest way.

Reke will be fine. He was strong all last year with defenses hunkering down on him. He’ll heal and bounce back. His jumper will improve as well. Fortunately, that is one of the easiest aspects of the game for a player to improve on.

Cousins, well, you are entitled to your opinion, but even if you don’t like Cousins, I just don’t see the Antonio Davis comparison at all. Their games are very different and Davis did not have the touch, footwork or fluidity that Cousins has.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 4, 2011 10:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Haha, you should change your handle to Eeyore

Can’t do that. Have you looked at Pookey’s avatar lately?

In these times, you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning.
~Carl Sandburg

by PurpleLoco on Jan 4, 2011 10:30 PM PST up reply actions  

True. But reading his admitted pessimism

I almost feel like Pookey should bequeath it to him.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 4, 2011 10:33 PM PST up reply actions  

"Eeyore" was my nickname as a kid.

Understandably so, I think.

"Where hope goes to die"

by napg on Jan 4, 2011 11:10 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not sure if this funny or sad

but at first I thought you were a troll, now I realize you are at least a real Kings fan.

Even if you are the yang to some of our yin.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 4, 2011 11:30 PM PST up reply actions  

DMC vs Davis

I meant more in terms of the impact Cousins would have in his prime, because you’re right about the difference in playing style. Then again, I don’t think much of Cousins’ touch, footwork or fluidity, and his lack of power around the hoop troubles me. He’ll have a few seasons of 14-15 ppg and ~10 rebounds – but, again, probably not with us.

"Where hope goes to die"

by napg on Jan 4, 2011 10:47 PM PST up reply actions  

What have you been smoking

" I don’t think much of Cousins’ touch, footwork or fluidity, and his lack of power around the hoop troubles me"… are you kidding me? You couldn’t be more wrong on every one of your observations about Cousins. Just compare his numbers to other 20 year old centers past and present and you’ll see exactly how good he really is.

by AyyJude on Jan 5, 2011 4:23 PM PST up reply actions  

I don’t see how anybody can logically argue about Cousin’s innate ability to play ball. When you combine that with the natural levels of progressive advancement common to nearly every player that is in the NBA, via team and personal training, I think you’d have to be nearly insane to suggest that Cousins has just about hit his ceiling.

Reke doesn’t even need to become a great shooter to become one of the top ten in a couple of years. He needs to stop taking silly chances, and he needs to move the ball better, and that’s really it. His turnovers almost universally are the result of laziness with the ball (soft passes, dribbling into crowds, etc). And yet he still manages to astound at times. And let’s not mention the foot.

Reke and Cousins may not become superstars on the level of Bryant and Wade, but not many folks will. Reke and Cousins, whether for the Kings or for some other team, will individually be in the top 10 at their respective positions in the next 2 years.

Take that to the bank.

by Charles L. Pierro on Jan 7, 2011 10:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Cousins' numbers doesn't stack up so well.

I went to basketball-reference.com to compare Cousins against other players 6’10" or taller, 20 or younger. (I would have specified only centers, but

If you only include players who qualified for the field goal percentage title (ie made at least 3.7 field goals per team game) and rank by PER, then the results are not very flattering. His PER production ranks markedly lower than that of Eddy Curry, Andris Biedrins, and Joe Smith at the same age, for example.

Cousins’ main problem is offensive efficiency. In all of NBA history, no qualifying player 6’10 or over, 20 or younger has shot as low a percentage as Cousins (.437), nor has any such player posted such a low offensive rating (96), eFG% (.440), or TS% (.485). He’s also worse than average in turnover percentage. On the defensive end, he’s ahead of only Tim Thomas (a non-center) in block percentage and blocks per 36 minutes.

Cousins’ saving grace, however, is rebounding. He’s not in Shaq or Kevin Love territory (both were excellent, excellent rebounders as 20-year-old rookies), but he’s somewhere between Amare Stoudemire and Dwight Howard. Not bad company at all.

I don’t think Cousins has hit his ceiling; however, based on his offensive inefficiency, I don’t see him getting as many shots over the next couple years as he has this year. Thus, he’ll see a dip in his points per game that will take him some time to reverse. I do, however, think he’ll continue to be a strong contributor on the boards. The problem for now is just that being very good on the boards and mediocre on defense isn’t going to make up for being horrible in offensive output.

I can perfectly understand if you don’t trust all the metrics I’ve thrown at you, and I myself am cautious about limiting myself to players qualifying for the field goal percentage title – I just don’t know of any better way to group big men under 20 who made some impact. I do think, though, that I’ve given enough metrics to show that Cousins has shown serious holes in his game thus far in comparison to most big men 20-and-under.

"Where hope goes to die"

by napg on Jan 7, 2011 4:42 PM PST up reply actions  

One more comparison.

Chris Webber, post-knee injury: .476 TS%, .440 eFG%
DeMarcus Cousins: .485 TS%, .440 eFG%

"Where hope goes to die"

by napg on Jan 7, 2011 4:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Of course,

the data is probably a bit premature. For example, DMC’s eFG% was 39% for November, and 42% for December. Only 5 games into January, he has posted a 57% eFG.

In November, DMC’s assist/to ratio was 1/3. Since then, he has been closer to 1/1.

So the question is, will he play the next 49 games like the his first month or his most recent month? All things considered, I think that it is awfully premature to try to statistically pigeon-hole the 20 year old.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 7, 2011 5:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Fair point.

I’ll be quiet now…I’m sorry, and it won’t happen again – I promise.

Reading that over, I’m afraid I might sound sarcastic, but I promise that’s not how I mean it.

"Where hope goes to die"

by napg on Jan 7, 2011 5:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Building on what section said

Two problems with this data:

1 – It’s just premature. I think your exercise is one with some validity, but it’s hard to compare 2 months to a full season. Especially when most rookies improve over the course of the year.

2 – Usage. A lot of rookie big men only dunk the ball or shoot wide open shots. I can’t speak to every player on your list, but Biedrins for example was almost never given the ball to create O as a rookie. He just dunked it after his teammates were doubled or he rebounded it. The Kings have been posting up Cousins and letting him learn how to create his own O at the NBA level. It’s starting to lead to great things as he gets used to the speed of the game, but also is a big reason for the low eFG & A/T%s.

I do applaud you using data here. You are certainly entitled to your opinion of Cousins, but I just don’t think the apples to oranges comparison works.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 7, 2011 8:13 PM PST up reply actions  

To be fair...

…I was responding to AyyJude’s comment, “Just compare [Cousins’] numbers to other 20 year old centers past and present and you’ll see exactly how good he really is.”

If somebody wants to argue about the skills he’s shown on the floor, we’ll just have to agree to disagree – though make no mistake, I am rooting for the guy. I’m just used to rooting for players and teams who never pan out.

However, my point is that if somebody wants to use the numbers to defend Cousins, the numbers so far simply don’t help that person’s case. You can look to Cousins’ play on the floor, but his statistical output so far has been sub-standard compared to other players 6’10 and taller, 20 years and younger. I was also looking at PER stats when I made my original post, and the only center with decent usage and a lower PER than Cousins at 20 was Spencer Hawes.

Maybe DMC’s numbers will get better, and maybe they won’t. Either way, though, you can’t use his current numbers to defend his performance now.

"Where hope goes to die"

by napg on Jan 11, 2011 7:41 AM PST up reply actions  

The Thunder can either add

a talented big man – or forget it. No chance of winning against a team who can grind it out in the halfcourt.

"But screw your courage to the stiking place - and we'll not fail"
Macbeth Act I, Sc VII

by lietothegirls on Jan 3, 2011 4:48 PM PST reply actions  

True

but with their current talent level, I don’t imagine that will be too hard. They don’t need a great big man, just a very good defender/rebounder.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 3, 2011 5:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, I could definitley see

one or both going in a trade. They really are one upgrade away and one more year of experience away from being a legit contender. Will love rooting for them to beat LA in the playoffs. They have about a 20% chance this year and probably 65% next year.

Of course, I will hate watching them against us in the playoffs in 2-3 years :)

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 3, 2011 10:47 PM PST up reply actions  

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