Why, As A Kings Fan, I Wish Stern Had Allowed the Trade
by Exhibit G on Dec 9, 2011 7:49 AM PST
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PrintAs Kings fans, we tend to enjoy any misfortune bestowed upon the Lakers. They are our rivals, even if they may not think much of us. We loathe them. We generally try to even avoid using such profanity as the word "Lakers" (apologies to Tom for using such foul language on the front page), instead opting for [redacted]. As such, our natural reaction was some combination of happiness, vindication, and laughter when news broke that the NBA had prevented Chris Paul from being traded to Los Angeles.
I'll admit, I shared those initial reactions. The more I've thought about it, though, the more I want the trade to go through. And not just because I fear the precedent, or the meddling of Stern, or the way this hurts New Orleans. Those are all legitimate concerns, but those aren't why I want this trade to go through.
I want the trade to go through because I want the Lakers to be good.
Please, please, I know you're grabbing your torches and pitchforks, but hear me out.
I've been reading Playing For Keeps, the excellent profile of Michael Jordan written by David Halberstam. It's an incredible read that I highly recommend. Within the book, Halberstam discusses Jordan's childhood. Jordan would regularly play basketball in the driveway with his older brother. His brother always won. He was bigger and stronger than Michael. But then Michael grew, and the games got closer. Eventually, Michael consistently beat his brother. It wasn't because his brother had gotten worse, but because Michael got better.
The Lakers are like our much older, much bigger brother. It means everything to us if we can beat them. We barely register on the radar. And my god do I ever want to beat them. But when the Kings eventually topple the Lakers, I don't want it to be because the Lakers got worse, I want it to be because the Kings got better.
This season, when Reke and DeMarcus and Jimmer lead the Kings to an NBA championship, I don't want Lakers fans to have "we would have won if the NBA hadn't rigged it and voided the Chris Paul trade" to fall back on. Even if (for you pessimists out there) the Kings don't win the championship this season, any victory over the Lakers will come with an excuse from Laker fans. That's what Stern has done to us.
Right now NBA fans of all teams are eviscerating Stern, jumping to the defense of the Lakers. The league that for so long seemed tilted in the Lakers favor, is now "proved" to be rigged, but against the Lakers. Their fan base has become insufferable whiners, using their other ridiculously lopsided trades as an argument of "why now?" This is what Stern has unleashed. It is a whole new level of evil.
I hope the NBA corrects this idiocy. Give the Lakers their newest All-Star. It would suck for a great player like Chris Paul to become part of the Lakers legacy, but it's OK. It's par for the course. We hated it, but none of us were really surprised when news came that the trade was going to happen. Just let it be.
Let the Lakers be good. I want them to be good. Only because it would make any Kings victory that much sweeter.
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to be honest
I thought this trade made them worse. Odom and Gasol were HUGE parts of the team, whereas Paul duplicates a lot of what Kobe already brings. They both need the ball to be effective. They would also lose a lot of the depth that they have had in previous years. I think everyone looses here.
Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."
by Ellimist on Dec 9, 2011 7:52 AM PST reply actions 8 recs
I can see that line of thinking
But it precludes the idea that the Lakers would have additional moves at their disposal (still not sure how the trade exceptions would have applied).
It also doesn’t take into account that, when healthy, Chris Paul is one BAMF. He and Kobe would not only be the best backcourt in the league, they’d be one of the best backcourts in the history of the league. Chris Paul’s a freaking assassin.
There’s no doubt in my mind this trade would give the Lakers a much better shot to win a ring in the next couple of seasons, Dwight Howard or no Dwight Howard.
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
definitely doesn't give them a better chance to win it all
Kobe and CP both need the ball to be effective, and u know that kobe is not going to be deferring to Paul in the final minutes, if ever in the games at all. This in turn will make Paul less effective and with no big men how would they compete with the heat, celtics, or mavs. I’m pissed the trade didn’t go through because it made the fakers worse
by Since'89 on Dec 9, 2011 11:26 AM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
I don't believe that for a second
Both of those guys love to win. They’d figure it out.
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
No chance this year though if that roster didn't have more big changes coming.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
Still interested to hear if the Lakers would have gotten those two 8.5 million trade exceptions
Larry Coon noted that, but not sure how that would work in a real world scenario.
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
Totally agree
I mean, it’ll be just like the Heat. Both Wade and LeBron need the ball. There’s no clear alpha dog. That’s why last season was such a horrific failure.
C’mon man, great players love playing with each other. They’d figure it out.
In most polarizing arguments, the truth is found somewhere in the middle.
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I agree with this.
The Mavs, Lakers, and Celtics all won titles recently because they had plenty of big, mobile, athletic defenders. I think the Rockets actually “won” the trade, getting a star without giving one up (they gave up good players, not near the level of Paul or Gasol or even Odom in a good year).
I can't call the Rockets winners in the trade for the same reason I can't call the Lakers losers in the trade
Because the subsequent moves would have been extremely important. The Rockets have little on their roster outside of Gasol at this point.
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
I agree as well
I was arguing with people I know that are Lakers fans last night and they have such a feeling of entitlement that many believe they would have been destined to land Howard if they landed Paul. And now they’re crying as if the NBA is against them just as stated in the great article above. I tried to tell them that the Lakers lost soooo much with Scrotom and Gasol, but the response was…well we would have gotten Howard too, despite the fact that its seems as if Orlando is set on trying to keep him.
I screwed up. There is no other way to say it... - Ailene Voisin
Agree entirely
Gasol is the best player on the Laker’s roster currently. Obviously Paul would have become that, but it really baffles me how everyone was saying Kobe was done after the playoffs last year suddenly thinks hes back? If you ship out Odom as well, you’re left with an obviously declining Artest and Bynum who has only played in 62% of the teams regular season games in the last 4 years due to injury. Obviously they could still acquire somebody but the free agent market isn’t that great. Let’s not forget that Paul had a substantial injury 2 seasons ago and wasn’t where he used to be when he came back.
Artest will be better without the triangle
(though I heard he was fat somewhere)
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 9:54 AM PST up reply actions
In no way shape or form is Gasol a better player than Kobe
Who was saying Kobe was done last year? People here?
He may be in decline, but he’s still their best player.
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
Hmmm
Stats from last year’s playoffs:
Gasol: 13.1 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 3.8 apg, PER: 17.3, .497 TS%, .424 eFG%
Kobe: 22.8 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 3.3 apg, PER: 20.6, .536 TS%, .478 eFG%
I don’t think either played up to their potential, but don’t see how Gasol outplayed Kobe.
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
Gasol wasn't better than Kobe in last year's playoffs.
He was better than Kobe for the first couple months of the season, though.
"He forced it to go in the net, and that's a good thing." -Jerry Reynolds
"He's gonna get a big hug, and I'm gonna hang on for a while." -Duane Kuiper
Agree with that
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
Sarcasm?
I’d say the only big man with high expectations that played worse than Gasol was Boozer.
by Crocoduck on Dec 9, 2011 10:42 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I remember everyone wondering when Gasol was going to pull his head out
And Phil Jackson punching him in the shoulder to try to wake him up.
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
I don't think it was here
but the flapping jaws on tv did make some grumbles about him breaking down due to his knees and fingers and such.
I argued it
Specifically, I argued Gasol was more important to the team than Kobe. After the previous season’s playoffs I felt he was more critical to their title hopes.
In most polarizing arguments, the truth is found somewhere in the middle.
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I thought the same thing, to be honest
Sure, I was elated that I could rub it in Laker fan faces, but, to be honest, the trade made the Lakers worse, as they’d lose all their size. Their at the rim defense would have taken a huge hit. their offense would improve, but their defense would ultimately suffer. …And defense wins championships.
I don’t know if i agree that the lakers need to be good for the kings to get better. I don’t’ really care much for the lakers and their fortunes either way. As much as i enjoy seeing them get jammed (because ti so rarely happens), I think stern is wrong to block like this. just seems like a knee jerk reaction. the wrong part is that the NBA is controlling a team. they need to sell the hornets (anahiem??) and get away from an obvious conflict of interest. If i was Demps, I’d resign my post. his job is obviously a figurehead position at best.
I didn't
think the Lakers did THAT great in the deal to warrant this. Yeah they’d get Paul, but Character would be their starting PF …. it’s not like it made them a huge powerhouse like Gasol did. Now I did read something that they had a Bynum and whatever for Howard deal agreed to, and that is what the owners wanted to prevent.
One one hand, I don’t like players demanding to be traded to a certain place when they have a year or more left on their deal. That puts the team in a terrible position. However, I do think the Hornets did well in this deal to warrant dealing Paul with a year left on his deal, especially when he wasn’t coming back to NO.
I still think the trade as we know it is missing pieces
I think the LAL wind up with Okafor in this deal
35 and 31. I'm calling it now. Reke and Cousins 1-2 in most improved award both All-stars. Jimmer leads rookies in scoring, passing and Ole's. Make 2nd round of playoffs and Salmons is not here by seasons end.
yeah
I read that last night. I also read something that the Lakers were saving like 40 mill on the deal.
Not in salary, but maybe in combining that with luxury tax relief?
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
That was Dan Gilbert crying
because he wouldn’t be getting a few hundred thou in Lux Tax payments from Lakers.
The basic math is Pau and Odom make @ $26.6mil and Paul makes @$16.3mil,so there had to be other players involved,but even so there’s only some $10mil diff.
But,the Hornets were taking on 4 players w/some $28mil in contracts,so they HAD to have included someone else,likely Okafor,perhaps Ariza or Jack. If it was Okafor to the Lakers,the Lakers would have TAKEN on some $2mil MORE in salary.
I don't think I've seen anyone report that Paul demanded to be traded anywhere
My understanding was that hey informed the Hornets front office that he would not be signing an extension. Thats more of a trade suggestion than a trade demand. He basically said, “Hey, I’m walking after this season, so you might want to move me so you get something out of it.” Name me a GM who wouldn’t rather have this then going along thinking they have an actual shot at re-signing their guy, only to lose him in free agency because he never had any intention of re-signing there.
The devil is dryhumping the details - Tom Ziller
When this deal first was blocked, I laughed my rear off.
That was a good jok, NBA.
Now put the deal through.
I still think the deal is a stupid one. People can talk all they want about how Gasol is a top 20 player (top 20 don’t utterly throw up in the playoffs) and how Odom is underrated (this is true, sure), but I think LA traded coins for a dollar and you do that when you can.
New Orleans got decent pieces, the Rockets got owned, and the Lakers, sure they have no bigs, but when you’re getting Chris Paul, anyone who says you LOST the deal has a problem.
But thi deal needs to go through. Good joke, NBA. Now do it ad stop pretending you won’t let LA do it.
Because I love my NBA and it’s honor more than I hate the god-damn fing Lakers.
by LightningStrike5 on Dec 9, 2011 8:11 AM PST reply actions 3 recs
This
Was almost EXACTLY my thoughts on the matter. I love the slap in the Lakers’ face, but it wasn’t a bad deal for NOH by any stretch.
The CBA was supposed to help encourage player movement, but then this move by the league gives everybody pause before even swapping 2nd round picks, so we’ll actually be worse off than before.
As an aside
a week ago you expressed interest in the auction league I was setting up. I have more information in the fanpost section but if you are still interested hit me up with an email and I’ll send back an invite.
For the Rockets
They gave up arguably more steady production,BUT they would have gained the cap room to sign Nene and possibly Chuck Hayes as well if they used Amnesty on Thabeet.
A Nene/Gasol frontline matches up well w/anybody in the West and Patterson,Hill,possibly Hayes and Morris(if he turns out to be a PF) is pretty deep. Then the team could trade Hill or Patterson at deadline/near Draft for a 2012 First because they have Motiejunas coming over next yr.
Care to explain why you think so?
by lead_pipe on Dec 9, 2011 8:19 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
The Lakers are not our big brothers, they are more like that step dad we never liked.
by Rambaldi on Dec 9, 2011 8:18 AM PST reply actions 9 recs
Or that rich, douchey cousin that visits from So Cal...
…who sleeps on your couch and complains about it in between rantings of how much better it is in La La Land.
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
"I regularly sacrifice good taste for great laughs." - Section214 (speaking of which, check out my comedy website, where you can access video clips of my stand-up @ here
by PhutureKings on Dec 9, 2011 9:59 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
It sucks.
Not as bad as Ken Griffey, Jr.’s career, but still…
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
"I regularly sacrifice good taste for great laughs." - Section214 (speaking of which, check out my comedy website, where you can access video clips of my stand-up @ here
Griffey is still a Hall of Famer
Roy isn’t.
Here is the problem with your analogy
In my opinion, Michael Jordan’s brother stayed consistent with his skill level because it was all him, it was all internal. If the Lakers are Michael Jordan’s brother in this scenario, then I would be ok with them getting better through the draft, and through their farm system. Not by getting lop sided trades and stealing away other teams good draft picks who become super stars. Because if the Lakers become terrible during a rebuilding phase, I have no problem beating them when they suck. As a matter of fact, I would have no problem beating the Lakers on any level, provided we beat them. If their fans want to bitch and moan and use rebuilding as an excuse, well that’s their problem, because we’ve all been there, and they’ve showed us no mercy.
by The Guy on the Couch on Dec 9, 2011 8:41 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
Team management
I don’t blame the Lakers for this trade. They had a chance to acquire Chris Paul, they went for it, just as any GM would. I’d blame Houston for facilitating the deal, but they’re also doing what they can to try to improve their franchise.
Yes, the Lakers “stole away” great players from other teams. But so have we. Flipping Williams for Bibby was a steal. Acquiring Doug Christie was a steal. The team threw a bunch of money at Divac to get him to sign. The Kings didn’t get those guys from building in the draft. The draft, trades, and free agency are all part of the process of building a team.
In most polarizing arguments, the truth is found somewhere in the middle.
Follow me on Twitter
Author of Inside-Out Game
True
It isn’t the Lakers’ fault. They are who they are and they are where they are. Every team is trying to get better through draft, free agency and trade.
The problem is this: The NBA hides behind the draft system when matters of parity are brought up. The worst teams get the better pics yada yada yada.
But I ask you this – What is the point in that system if these better draft picks hang around for the length of their contract, then flock to the big markets anyway? Why bother with small market teams if you only have a 3-4 year window to build a contender around a draft pick? Especially when you will struggle to get decent players through any means other than the draft, as they are all going to the big markets? Granted, there are some exceptions to this, but they are few.
If...
… New Orleans was a contender, you could make this argument. But players generally don’t flee from well-run contending teams, small market or not. Look at San Antonio and OKC (and Utah during their heyday). Garnett also was perfectly willing to stay in Minnesota but they are so horribly mismanaged, nobody begrudged his wanting to leave.
New York has only become a “preferred” destination since Isaiah Thomas was canned. New Jersey only very recently with new ownership. Clippers and Warriors are in big markets, but still not preferred destinations.
Bottom line— run your organization well and players will be willing to re-sing with you.
by henryclemente on Dec 9, 2011 9:06 AM PST up reply actions
Each of those examples
Relied entirely on the character of the players involved. Can we expect all star players in small market/bad franchise situations to be as upstanding as Durant and Duncan, or as stubborn as KG?
Sadly not.
That's what I mean
He was too prideful and stubborn (some say faithful) to better his situation by heading to a better team.
True...
… cases can be highly dependent on the personalities of the player involved. But my point was that you cannot draw a clean line in the sand between small vs big markets and say “big markets always win” and “small markets never get a fair shake”. The Clippers are in LA and their prized young players have been fleeing from them for years.
by henryclemente on Dec 9, 2011 9:15 AM PST up reply actions
Can't argue there
They would fall under the “bad franchise” tag.
Though living in the shadow of the Lakers does make them seem like a small market, especially if you are a player.
Many of these players signed their extensions
And the “home” teams still have a financial advantage to keep them.
Under the current (and prior) CBA, a team had those advantages. Outside of pure dollars, how do you force guys to stay away from attractive markets and cities? What incentive do you give a guy, outside of additional $s, to stay in Minnesota or Sacramento rather than go to Miami, New York or Los Angeles?
If they play out their contract, they should be able to go where they want. The home team can either build a nice roster around the player (this is where Cleveland dropped the ball and where San Antonio didn’t) and keep paying him, or they can cut their losses and get what they can before the player walks.
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
Pau Gasol didnt play out his contract. Paul isnt acting like hes playing out his contract. Artest was signed under the questionable MLE so I guess he did play his contract out. They definitely werent making any championship runs without gasol and adding artest definitely helped them. And in this case they would be trading a unhappy gasol that has 2 rings for a hungry younger Chris Paul.
The whole point
Of the contracts ending is that players can walk if they choose. I don’t have a problem with that. The problem is that they are increasingly leaving the smaller markets/bad franchises in favour of the elite teams. The rest of the league is slowly becoming a farm system for the Lakers, Knicks and Celtics of this world.
Don’t get me wrong, they have the right to do so, but if you are a fan of one of those feeder teams, then barring a near miracle, you will peak at mediocrity.
I still think if you have a good GM putting solid talent around those players, it will mitigate some of these moves
What did LeBron have around him in Cleveland? What does Paul have around him in NO?
Guys like Durant and Duncan have extended their contracts. Their franchises actively surround them with talent that puts them in position to win year-in, year-out, plus they get paid. That’s the way you keep your superstars.
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
this
times a million.
Hell even Webber stayed because of the team not because of the Money.
I'll double down on this actually
I would still say that Durant up and decided he wanted to live the high life at the end of his deal with Oklahoma and pulled a Lebron and walked, they still got 9 years. That ain’t mediocrity either.
Doug Christie
Turned out to be a steal. As I recall at the time it wasn’t thought to be that big a robbery. That said I agree no team is an island and no team builds solely through the draft. The great kings teams were built solely through trades and free agency.
by Lotusprime on Dec 9, 2011 8:55 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
And an aging Richmond for a young Webber
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
apparently,
man I’d forgotten about that. That was bad.
I was because Webber and Howard did not get along.
"We're like Tim Duncan and David Robinson. But a younger version. I really feel that." - Charlie Villanueva about himself and Chris Bosh.
well considering the mess they were both in not so surprising
by wallywagon11 on Dec 9, 2011 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
I could see a young fans asking when Webber and Dwight Howard played together.
"We're like Tim Duncan and David Robinson. But a younger version. I really feel that." - Charlie Villanueva about himself and Chris Bosh.
without Jalen there to be friends with both of them
it was never going to work out.
I don't the "blame" the Lakers
But I’m just fine with the Kings beating a Laker team that sucks for while. For a long while. I don’t want to see a West Coast version of the Miami Heat with Paul and Howard (or whoever).
Well-crafted argument though, nice try. Halberstam’s “The Reckoning” is really good, about Iacocca and Deming and Toyota.
Stern is losing it.
He has finally gone over the edge.
I am enjoying the venom I’m hearing from my _______ fan friends and love to see LA suffer, but this is total, utter bullshit.
It was a good trade for N.O. and now what? Let Paul walk? Try a trade the spoiled, bratty NBA owners like?
It’s crap. Let LA suffer the old-fashoined way… Paul’s knees turn to dust, Kobe gets old, inter-squad chaos/bickering/bitchery, etc.
Maybe the owners know more to this story – Howard on the way…? But whatever, this trade, as it stands, is totally legit and I loathe the NBA like never before despite my love of the game.
GET STERN OUTTA HERE!
Certainly...
Agree completely with the sentiment. As nice as it would be for Laker fans to suffer, this sort of meddling for no other reason than sour grapes owners is simply wrong, and leaves me with a worse taste than any NBA problem or controversy in recent memory. I want to see the Lakers loose on the court, not in the NBA boardroom.
The thing I fear most now is that LA will deal Gasol to Houston directly for the same set of players they were willing to send to New Orleans. Lakers with Scola, Martin, Dragic and a pick just for Gasol would will be a nice haul for them and make them so much better in the short-term than just CP would.
Reasons I want the Lakers to suck
Remember what happens in LA when they win:
How many more LAPD cop cars can we afford to flip and burn?!
How many more newspaper racks can be thrown in the streets by happy/angry Lakers fans?
I’m just a concerned Californian, that’s all.
Im not going to say that its wrong to think that the NBA should have allowed this trade.
However my opinion, and its just that an opinion not fact, is this trade would have allowed the lakers to continue to be the haves instead of dealing with being a have not.
Bare with me on this. Lets say the league lets this go through. You have CP3, the finger pointer, and bynum. They get the PG theyve need at both ends of the court and you can only double 1 of those 3. So they make another championship run or 2 because of this and Kobe retires in 3-4 years. So then where are they possibly with one of the best PG’s in the league and a center that once again has proven more than serivceable and they are able to pick up another F or SG that allows them to continue competing for championships. The Lakers have never dealt with having to rebuild. Even in their down years they made the playoffs. The lakers have only missed the playoffs 5 times. And in the last 15 years they have continued to have a definite advantage with acquiring players via trade. Its a cycle that the NBA is obviously trying to break. I know its 2 completely different sports but i would say half the teams in the NFL have a shot at winning the super bowl when the season begins. It is not the case with the NBA and Im not sure how much of the new CBA addresses this. As a fan its disheartening that a couple teams can pick what ever players they want just because said player doesnt want to resign with his current team. Once again Ill take the NFL model, every team is about 2-3 years from making the playoffs or even the super bowl. This is not the case with the NBA. Teams are painted into a corner because they dont want to let their stars walk so they get pieces that match up on paper but in the end as always the fans get screwed.
Long explanation short this cycle of letting the top players piss and moan their way their way to the best teams is not a way for the NBA to keep its fans. Stern should not have let it get as far as it did but maybe this is the new NBA where trading ralph sampsons contract, chris webbers contract, ronnie prices shoes, Jerome James empty chip bags, and reggie theus’ empty bottle of Hai Karate for Dwight Howard isnt going to fly just because the numbers work.
and one more thing....
i forget who’s sig had it but it really comes down to stern showing the lakers that the world is not their trade machine.
The players have always
Bitched and whined their way to the best teams and the bigger cities. That has been the case since the inception of free agency.
by Lotusprime on Dec 9, 2011 9:05 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
But whwn it actually has happened, it's been the exception - not the rule
We are quickly getting on that path.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 9:11 AM PST up reply actions
There's a difference between let them be 'good'
and let them have any Star they might want.
Fuck ’em.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
This
I live in San Diego. I listen to my fair share of LA sports talk. The Lakers (their fans, sports talk hosts, and even their front office by their recent trades) come off as it being manifest destiny for the Lakers to get the free agent star of the year. Have they ended up with the big name every year? No but the fact that theyre even in the conversation on a year in and year out basis shows that they definitely have an advantage over 99% of the teams in the league.
Well you can sorta see where they are coming from when you look at their history
From Wilt and Baylor and West to Kareem and Worthy and Magic to O’Neal and Bryant to Bryant and Gasol and Odom they have always been in the conversation to get the best free agents and players. Because they are LA. That franchise has had a golden path since they moved from Minneapolis.
Oh my God G-Naps
I’m a Kings fan in socal and I just said a similar thing above and even used the word “destiny.” Totally agree…Lakers radio spends huge amounts of time on this and just last week they were saying that the Lakers would get Deron Williams or Paul AND Howard….and they talked about this for like 30 minutes.
I screwed up. There is no other way to say it... - Ailene Voisin
and that makes it OK for the lakers to get whoever they want?
This trade was vetoed, i feel, as the first step in establishing some kind of competitive balance.
it did reply to me
it just looks weird because of how it nests the conversations
it's not okay for them to get whoever they want
and i think this CBA is actually a move in the right direction for teams to be penalized as harshly as they are. If you’re going to have teams signing 3 billion dollar tv contracts like the Angels did today then you can’t be surprised when those teams are able to pay more of the good players then the teams that can’t and the reason they can get those 3 billion dollar contracts is because of location.
The reason that the NFL has competitive parity is twofold: No guaranteed contracts so you can facilitate roster turnover quickly and most importantly a league wide tv contract that is shared equally amongst all the teams.
LOL
Hornets will try to see if sweetening current deal in some way would make it more acceptable to NBA. (via @daldridgetnt)
Why does this strike me as funny?
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
by otis29 on Dec 9, 2011 9:17 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
it's funny because the Hornets aren't the one that need to do the sweetening
That is hilarious.
It strikes you as funny..
….because it matters to Dell Demps more than anyone else that this situation resolves itself quickly. (Am I insinuating too much with a supposition of your opinion?)
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Even better
Bresnahan:
Lakers can’t appeal trade block to NBA b/c league considers the deal nixed by N.O., not the NBA.
You just couldn’t make this shit up.
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
by otis29 on Dec 9, 2011 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
I saw that and I just shook my head. Demps was upset by the trade by all accounts except Bresnahan.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
They want LA to give up a 1st rd draft pick
Then they’ll probably let it happen.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 9:58 AM PST up reply actions
Wow!
A whole low 1st round pick from the Lakers in 2014! Scintillating stuff to make sure the Lakers complied rather than instigating one of the most ridiculous things in all of sporting history.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
It would be a justification from their perspective
and take away a trade asset of course. I wasn’t saying it was my view, just predicting.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 10:40 AM PST up reply actions
The view that the Lakers would get worse ridiculous
First of all, the proposed trade wasn’t complete. In order to be complete it needed more salary for the LAkers, that would probably involve Okafor or Scola to the Lakers. Even if that wouldn’t happen, the Lakers would still get a trade exception of approximately $8-9 million. They would have a very good chance to trade for Howard which makes things much worse.
Bleeding Black and Purple 6710 miles South East of Sacramento.
The Lakers would not have the cash or assets to make a fair trade for Howard after this trade
An unfair trade is another story.
by Rambaldi on Dec 9, 2011 9:25 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It may be totally wrong for the NBA to have Stern veto the trade
but it was a damn fair thing to do considering the values.
Bleeding Black and Purple 6710 miles South East of Sacramento.
Still if we leave Howard out of this,
The Lakers would get Chris Paul for God’s sake. A young elite PG in their roster out of nowhere. A monster player to build around for the next 6-7 years. I don’t care if they’d become a worse team in 2011-12. They would get a hell lot better the years after that just by luring players to play with Paul in LA.
Bleeding Black and Purple 6710 miles South East of Sacramento.
an elite young PG that only has
one and a half knees. I agree with your basic supposition though that they could then get Howard as a free agent next year or Blake Griffin later or whomever.
In this analogy, This trade is something like:
Michael gets good enough to start beating his brother some of the time, so his brother goes and gets his friend from the local team to come over to their driveway, and they play michael 1 on 2, because as michael gets better, his brother starts bringing in outside resources that michael can’t get.
Where's my pie
by TheFifthMookie on Dec 9, 2011 9:30 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
On Dwight Howard...
“The Magic, the source said, will not allow a repeat of the Shaquille O’Neal departure from Orlando to Los Angeles in 1996, when O’Neal walked as a free agent and the Magic were left with nothing. If the organization ultimately decides it has no choice but to trade Howard, it will do so. But the Magic will decide where he goes. The source said a reported proposed package by the Nets of center Brook Lopez and Draft picks for Howard is not at all interesting to the Magic.” from…NBA.com
I screwed up. There is no other way to say it... - Ailene Voisin
Yeah, I don't think Howard comes into play until next year
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
i think the lakers get worse from the trade anyway
They’ve got huge wholes in the frontcourt now. How about David Stern though? Straight up cancelling the trade because other teams owners are hating. Come on man. People dont want to play for small market teams most of the time because the owners are pathetic. Why wouldnt someone want to play for Buss and the Lakers, if they have proven to do anything to build around players and go after championships.
B.S.
Come on man…The Lakers also make A LOT more money than all small market teams. I’m tired of people saying that the Lakers make good choices and are therefore good…Good choices like Jerry West being the GM of Memphis and trading Gasol to Lakers? And now West is working for the Lakers?
I screwed up. There is no other way to say it... - Ailene Voisin
So you're saying
that Jerry West and Michael Heisley colluded with the lakers so that the lakers could get Pau Gasol for two dimes and a nickel?
I think he IS saying that
and I think that’s what happened
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 10:01 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I could see how you might think that West colluded
with his former employer, but Heisley signed off on the trade too that’s the part that I don’t see
by Lotusprime on Dec 9, 2011 10:03 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I have always believed that
especially since Jerry went back to working for the lakers after the deal
Where's my pie
by TheFifthMookie on Dec 9, 2011 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
oh by the way
Jerry West retired from the Memphis Grizzlies on July 1st of 2007
Pau gasol was traded on February 13th of 2008.
Look again
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
I did
At age 69, West retired as a Grizzlies general manager in 2007 and turned over managing duties to Chris Wallace, from Buckhannon, West Virginia. (from Wikipedia)
He said Tuesday he will leave as the Grizzlies’ director of basketball operations July 1 at the end of his contract. Injuries, losses, weariness and uncertainty became too much. (from ESPN and the AP)
February 1, 2008
Traded Pau Gasol and a 2010 2nd round draft pick (Devin Ebanks) to the Los Angeles Lakers for Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, Marc Gasol, a 2008 1st round draft pick (Donte Greene) and a 2010 1st round draft pick (Greivis Vasquez). (from B-R)
as Otis points out he was a consultant for the team, last i checked consultants don’t make trades.
Didn't he consult for them after he officially retired?
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
thats cray.
first of all, nobody told the Charlotte Hornets to trade the draft rights to Kobe B to the Lakers. Half the time its just being lucky. The Lakers are still benefiting off that one deal. 2nd, The Gasol trade is slightly less of a travesty because the Lakers sent also sent Marc Gasol to the Grizzles. While Pau Gasol is still the better player, they traded away a guy who is now about to receive a max deal from the Grizzles. Ask the Grizzles would they make the trade again, and they’d do it in a heartbeat.
not to mention that if the lakers don't trade Vlade for Kobe
then Vlade doesn’t want to leave LA (instead of Charlotte) to come to the Kings, Peja Stojakovic never comes over from Europe, Chris Webber never comes to Sacramento and we probably don’t have a team anymore.
Nobody though M Gasol was going to be much of anything when that trade happened
It’s a fact.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 10:02 AM PST up reply actions
Marc Gasol had been getting love from the Europe crowd for about a year and was already considered a steal by the Lakers
It’s a fact.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 9, 2011 10:08 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Marc is not as good as Pau
but it’s pretty close and even then it was pretty close. remeber Marc is four years younger than Pau.
Marc is better defensively...
…but is worse offensively. They are about equal as passers IMO. In more situations I would take Pau, but there are a number of situations (like the Kings actually) where I’d take Marc over Pau if given my druthers.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I agree
I would rather have Marc right now than Pau, beyond the fact that Pau looks worn out and unmotivated. Marc is 26 and Pau is 30, Marc is just entering his prime and Pau is just leaving it. That’s why I’m pretty sure the Grizzlies will match any offer.
Pau could just be worn out dealing with LA and Kobe
He’s still not “old” IMO. I could see a resurgence for him if he’s in a different venue.
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
revisionist history
There were real concerns that he was overweight and undermotivated. Only a ‘pretty good’ prospect.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 10:42 AM PST up reply actions
West is working for the Warriors
Just saying.
by LightningStrike5 on Dec 9, 2011 9:53 AM PST up reply actions
wut?
And now West is working for the Lakers?
Or not at all.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 9, 2011 10:00 AM PST up reply actions
small point of correction
Jerry west is now working for the dubs
Frances Amthor: I think you're a very stupid person. You look stupid, you're in a stupid business, and you're on a stupid case.
Philip Marlowe: I get it. I'm stupid Farewell My Lovely (1975)
And in this vein I get what I want how I want it because I am the customer. You might want to remember that you thieving scumbag mongrel bitches.
nate21h@evilcowtowninc.com
The question is not whether the NBA "should or "should not" let the deal happen.
This is not a moral decision. The question is whether they had a right to stop it. And the owners did because each one owns 1/29 of the Hornets. Quit trying to make this into a “Hornets and Lakers got screwed” conversation. 1) The Lakers’ owners new when they put up money to save the Hornets each owner would have a say in its actions. 2) The Hornets are not run by a seperate entity, but but all 29 teams with a puppet in the front office. This was the only way to save the franchise, and these are the consequences. The owners can veto any trade because they own the team.
Of course this does not mean that a trade could be vetoed between Orlando and the Lakers. You know why? Right. It would take the owners of only Orlando and the Lakers to affirm or deny the deal. With what happened to Paul, the owners as a collective denied the deal.
"We're like Tim Duncan and David Robinson. But a younger version. I really feel that." - Charlie Villanueva about himself and Chris Bosh.
by kwill on Dec 9, 2011 9:39 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
My understanding is that the league's viewpoint has always been
That while they “own” the team, the management of the franchise acts autonomously so as to avoid any conflicts of interest. If that’s been policy in the past, why isn’t it policy now?
Each owner who voted “no” on the Chris Paul deal or any subsequent player deal should not be allowed to trade for or sign as a free agent any player involved in any deal they vote on.
If you’re going to allow them to vote, you should disallow them from subsequent contact with the players they are voting on.
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
I agree it is a conflict of interest.
But that does not deny that they have a right to interject. If anything, that proves they have a right to interject.
The problem they faced was this; How could the Hornets conduct business without interferance? Obviously they did not acheive it. I wrote last night that the franchise should have been put in trust according to an operational agreement. The trustee could have done whatever they wanted without interferance.
"We're like Tim Duncan and David Robinson. But a younger version. I really feel that." - Charlie Villanueva about himself and Chris Bosh.
agreed that the NBA has the right to deny this (and any trade for/by any team) trade. But, its impossible to avoid the stigma of conflict of interest in this case. ( you all read gilbert’s email to that end.) A trust sounds like it could have been a better short term fix then having the nba own them outright with a wink wink that demps is in full control. a joke that they should be embarrassed about. Personally, I think the trade got way past the point of no return and let to go through. the fall out would have been easier to clean up. this mess is going to carry on throughout the season and may dog stern’s legacy even after he is done.
I did not say the NBA has a right to deny any trade for/by any team - Those are your words.
I just want to be clear on that.
"We're like Tim Duncan and David Robinson. But a younger version. I really feel that." - Charlie Villanueva about himself and Chris Bosh.
but they do have the right. every trade has to be approved by the league. its not just my words….just to be clear on that.
Sure it has to be approved. That is not the same as being able to deny any trade.
They have to be approved according to the CBA. In other words, do the salaries match? Is a team trying to pachage two first round picks in a row. Those issues are being considered.
"We're like Tim Duncan and David Robinson. But a younger version. I really feel that." - Charlie Villanueva about himself and Chris Bosh.
Right, I believe that approval is strictly to make sure the deal doesn't violate the CBA/salary cap rules
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
Where does it say that?
The league is a collection of Franchises, maintaining the health of the overall business model, acting in ‘the best intersts of the NBA’ is certainly within the commisioner’s powers – and should be in my view.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 10:44 AM PST up reply actions
We know the salaries have to match.
Why should one take an obscure definition of approval, and assume that is means something other than making sure the deal aligns with the CBA?
"We're like Tim Duncan and David Robinson. But a younger version. I really feel that." - Charlie Villanueva about himself and Chris Bosh.
I'll rest on what I said above.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 10:53 AM PST up reply actions
Of course you will
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
Because he avoided my whole point
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
I did.
But as you probably know, a franchise agreement can be structured any way they want. I brought you to the obvious starting question; Why should I impose a definition on approval beyond the normal, general understanding of the CBA? As far as I’m concerned, you have to answer that question first.
"We're like Tim Duncan and David Robinson. But a younger version. I really feel that." - Charlie Villanueva about himself and Chris Bosh.
If the Hornets are/were losing money that was coming out of other owners pockets . . .
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
I meant that the owners could have still bought it, but then placed it in trust.
"We're like Tim Duncan and David Robinson. But a younger version. I really feel that." - Charlie Villanueva about himself and Chris Bosh.
I said it before and i will say it again: If i was Dell Demps, I would resign ASAP. his job is obviously only a figure head position and no other GM or player can really respect him again. Everybody knows now that the GM is actually papa stern. his ability to do his job and wield authority is forever exposed in the big easy. the NBA needs to shed this blaring conflict of interest like yesterday. send them to Anahiem and knock out two birds with one stone. there is no way to approve or deny this trade without the appearance of a conflict of interest begin lobbied. its a joke!! a joke that the NBA should have put some time into sweeping under the rug during all that down time during the lockout.
part of the problem is that the NBA
would like to not move the Hornets from Nawlins, moving them to Anaheim or better yet Seattle is pretty much a non starter
Seattle is not a non-starter
if they had a facility. I still wonder what that small % the ‘league’ is getting from the new CBA is going to be spent on.
A fund to contribute to facilities I hope, I hope. It would amount to probably $20 mil a year.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 10:06 AM PST up reply actions
I wasn't saying that Seattle is a non starter
I was saying that moving the team from NO is a non starter, sorry to be confusing.
I'm not so sure
At some point (?). My take is that there really aren’t any/many real destinations. Is Charlotte really viable? Milwakee? Sacramento?
I’m eager to hear the details of the revenue sharing that will eventually come out. True revenue sharing is the only way the league will not be forced to contract at some point.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
I agree with you that revenue sharing
especially of TV money is necessary for the continued survival of about half the franchises, you simply can’t have LA getting 30 million a year for their TV rights and the Kings getting 10 and expect that the teams will be able to compete. Not to mention the other revenue stream disparities.
BTW that
30 million figure is their current deal with FSW not their new deal with Time Warner which may be as much as 150 milion per year. Which they don’t have to share. that’s why it’s better to be LA or New York than it is to be Milwaukee or Charlotte.
All TV money should be split 60-40
The visiting team gets 40%, they’re part of the show
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
National TV money is split equally
Local TV money goes to the team that makes the contract. Hence why a team like Miami or Boston or LA can get a billion dollars over ten years.
I Know what the current situation is
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 11:43 AM PST up reply actions
I agree it is not a moral decision
however, I think more than anything it does underline how incredibly crappy the whole league owning the Hornets thing is and how in fact it leads to bad decisions.
by wallywagon11 on Dec 9, 2011 10:01 AM PST up reply actions
Houston?
I think this trade worked for both the Hornets and the Lakers. The clear winner in my opinion was the Hornets, getting 3 legit starters for Paul is alot.
But Houston, what the hell are you thinking? Did you watch the playoffs last year? Gasol totally checked out, melted down, gave up, etc. The postgame questions included if he thought the playoffs destroyed his legacy as a Laker, and he answered, “I dont know, you tell me”. Does that sound like a franchise player? I mean who knows what happened with the guy, but he looked done.
If I was Houston I would hesitate to trade Scola for Gasol straight up, and would not consider Martin for Gasol. But they trade Scola, and include Martin, and Dragic, and a 1st round pick???
I agree, a mentally weak 32 year old is not a good centerpiece on a barren roster.
No way he’s a leader.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
But I'd certainly trade Scola and Dragic for him - maybe a pick
But Gasol isn’t a franchise player at this point or maybe ever. Didn’t work out that way in Memphis.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
also think Odom would check out playing for a small market like NO
"First we get jobs, then we get the khakis, then we get the chicks."
I know how much you hate to exaggerate, so I'll just clarify that he won't be 32 until after this season ends
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team." - Michael Jordan (Owner, Charlotte Bobcats)
by otis29 on Dec 9, 2011 11:20 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
OK, were they going to be a playoff team this year
- no matter what they managed to add with the $10 they’d have left over?
My point is that he’s not a franchise player and a mid-market team shouldn’t pay $19 mil a year for an older, non-franchise player. He doesn’t sell any tickets, not there, not anywhere.
Memphis proved that. He needs an Alpha dog to push him. This was a baaaad deal for Houston, way over valuing Gasol.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Dec 9, 2011 11:47 AM PST up reply actions
too funny
I just read where demos has been given permission to work another trade for Paul? …………….with what leverage?? no other GM will ever take him serious in the capacity of being the GM..err…gm’s secretary in N.O. WHAT A FRIKKIN JOKE!!! the NBA has played itself so poorly here.
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