The NBA Draft 2011 - Looking for Purity: Combo, Tweener, and "yeah, well, he’s a gamer".
by betweentheeyes on May 22, 2011 1:48 PM PDT
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Purity of Position (PoP) – a strong part of the NBA draft process and an important one. We see your skills, your size and your understanding of the game (aka BB IQ) but do you belong on our team or in our League?
Here in Sacramento this is an oft mentioned issue; Is Tyreke Evans a point guard? Before you NaPG this question – let’s agree that purity is not an answer. Combo guard is a better answer than the Blueprint response of "I’m a basketball player". Marcus Thornton is a shooting guard, a small SG but a facilitator he is not, because of his size, let’s call him a combo guard. Beno Udrih – a facilitator to a decent degree but is a steady shooter and reliably scorer but can’t defend – again, many call him a combo guard. Also on the Kings – JT – a PF/C, DMC also a 4/5. Carl Landry had the size of a big 3 or small 4 but played the 4 on offense and the 3 on defense. Tweener.
Looking at this year’s NBA Draft those same question abound.
Where does this guy play?
How does he fit?
Does his college or Euro position résumé apply at the next level?
Are the skill strengths applicable in the Association?
Can he overcome the weaknesses to his game or his size in the NBA?
During the evaluation process an important feather in the cap of some of these prospects is getting that position label. The players know that, the agents know that and of course the GMs and Scouts understand that as well. By extension promotion can blur PoP accuracy
Let’s start a King’s eye view with two of the most mentioned prospects on the community boards – Kemba Walker from the NCAA champion Connecticut Huskies and that man from the Brigham Young Cougars, the one and only, NCAA scoring leader Jimmer Fredette
Both young men are skilled, tough, competitive leaders who can score the basketball. In college basketball they both were assigned to handle the offensive load for the team and passing was not encouraged. Both are "NBA small". What one has in shooting touch, the other has In athleticism. They both face the same question but from different vantage points – can they defend? Can they facilitate an offense? In other words – can they play Point Guard?
At this point in the conversation the debate is often thrown over to successful players – Ben Gordon, Eric Gordon, Flash Gordon, Commissioner Gordon – let’s leave past player hyperbole out of this talk, please. None of these guys are any of those guys.
On the other side of the ledger are the projected top 2: Kyrie Irving and Derrick Williams. Both fine talents and impressive with their skills. But Irving is the #1 pick because he is a pure point guard. Derrick Williams is solid "big" shooting forward (though forward is perhaps the most variable height and size position in the League – from 6’5" to 6’12") as he appears to be quick enough to guard small forwards. It is due to PoP that both of these guys are "solid" picks – they have positions on a team, any team.
What about the rest of the bunch in the top 10? Enes Kanter – big, long, a bit lumbering – a solid "5". Brandon Knight – combo guard – with a promotional lead towards PG as he is not a "scorer". Jan Vesely – 6’11" 240 lbs, PF. Kawhi Leonard – tweener. He can defend and rebound but is too small to post up against say, DMC or Sammy, and can’t defend either of them and his jumper has been questioned. Tristan Thompson – 6’8" 225 and averaged less than 8 rpg. Tweener. Jonas Valanciunas – 6’10" 230 who is known to be a rebounder – PF. Chris Singleton 6’9" 225 but athletic - PF.
The Kings "need" a point guard and another big for the post Sammy era (sooner or later) – There seems to be enough PoP for the bigs but on the point guard side – Walker, Jimmer, even Knight are combo guards. Will the Kings reach for backcourt prospect? Should they? Must they be point guards or is BPA the call?
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
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The Title does not contain the word "Jimmer"
Your Fanpost is Invalid.
Author of the Pick and Scroll and NBA Mashups. Follow me on Twitter here.
by Aykis16 on May 22, 2011 1:59 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Aykis, please moderate and can the title to "o' jimmer how do I love thee. Let me count the ways.
Or to move aside mr Rubio, we’ve got a new sheriff in town and we heart him more than u.
^Change instead of can.
I saw the word jimmer and lost it. Couldnt type straight.
by BearKing on May 22, 2011 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
He did mention Commissioner Gordon
That has to have some redemptive qualities for his omission to Jimmer.
I heard that Flash Gordon has great "feel for the game and can flat out play."
Don’t think he’ll be there at seven though. Bummer.
These questions of is Kemba a PG seem silly to me
He was a pure PG his first 2 years in college, and was somewhat effective. A scorer, he was not.
The real issue with him is efficiency, and if his size will effect the way he finishes at the rim. I think with time, he can adjust to these things.
I believe whether a GM has Kemba high or low on their draft board depends on their philosophy. With Kemba, you will have to live with his size on defense, because as hard as competes at that end, history has shown that smaller PG’s are abused at one time or another by bigger guards.
I remember in the 2008 draft when we took JT, DJ Augustine was the guy it seemed like Petrie wanted to get before he was taken #8. Comparing Kemba to DJ is an interesting thing to do, because this draft is surely worse that the 08 one.
Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."
I think this is a valuable way to look at it
In addition to the DJ history, rumors about Aaron Brooks persisted a while as well. Neither are big guards. The workouts are the key this year because the talent base is so strange, size be damned.
BREAKING: George Maloof has confirmed to The Bee's Tony Bizjak the Kings are staying. #HereWeStay
by sac_faithful on May 22, 2011 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I should retitle the post: The NBA Draft 2011 - Looking for Purity: Combo, Tweener, and "yeah, well, he's Jimmer".
my bad. Let me make up for it by adding this important piece of research I have gleaned from extensive time on the internets:
Jimmer Fredette: A haiku (the term syllable has been replaced by the term jimmer)
Jimmer, jimmer, jimmer, jimmer, jimmer
Jimmer jimmer jimmer jimmer jimmer jimmer jimmer
Jimmer jimmer jimmer jimmer jimmer
I will now move to the Overlook Hotel until Draft Day. Lloyd make me a martini…
very good sir
Need a little excitement?
Snap into a SlimJimmer!
Yeah, ooooh yeah.
R.I.P. Macho Man
Burklebomb Admirer since 2011
by Nutterball on May 22, 2011 3:31 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
bte - you are ever so slightly reminding me of lttg and Thabeeeeeeeeeeet
good luck with that
"It ain't Chinese algebra" - Tony Allen from Basketbawful
the difference being, when it comes to Jimmer, I jest.
I don’t like Jimmer as the #7 for the Kings. Let the Jazz grab him at #12 – you know they will if given the chance.
by betweentheeyes on May 23, 2011 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey, for all my desire of an interior defender at the time
(tired of all the layup drills opponents were running on us)
I was solidly in favor of Curry by draft day.
Thabeeeeeeet! Oh, will it never end?!
:-)
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on May 24, 2011 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Few points
Derrick Williams measured out at 6’7.25. Thats a half inch shorter than Carl Landry (6’7".75) Thats more than inch shorter than Blake Griffin (6’8".5). An inch shorter than Donte Greene. (6’8.25) He’s barely taller than Michael Beasley (6.7). He’s not ranked high on draft boards because he can be slotted as a true PF, or PoP to use your term. He is ranked high on draft boards because he is perceived to have basketball skills: athleticism, hands, low post game and face up shooting that will translate to the NBA.
Derrick Williams will not be taken Top 3 because he has a pure position. It remains to be seen if he can play PF full time. If Carl Landry is undersized to play PF and Derrick Williams is a half-inch shorter, he will have to overcome the same challenges as Top Hat. Until then he’s a classic ’tweener.
Talent evaluators are simply looking for skills displayed in college that translate to NBA. As far as positional slotting, this determination is based primarily upon the spots a player can defend. Tyreke is a multi-position player because he defend 1s, 2s and 3s. Kemba and Jimmer are PGs because they will try to defend 1s. Beyond that determination it becomes a question of which skills will translate to the next level. Not more complicated than that.
Frankly I think this PoP stuff is silly, which upon second glance, you do not even clearly define. Derrick Williams has clearly defined skills. He does not have a clearly defined NBA position until he proves otherwise, unless you consider combo forward a clear position.
Carl Landry did not guard ’3’s. Paul Westphal made a dumb decision to try to play him there for a handful of games, and it failed miserably.
Marcus Thornton dropped sweet dimes out of the pick and roll towards the end of the year and moved the ball better than Tyreke in half and full court offense. MT23 is not a PG of course, but I would not sell him short on his playmaking abilities.
Regarding two PGs, I hope the Kings do everything in their power to schedule Jimmer and Kemba on same Sacramento visit to offer direct comparison of skills. Since drafting as much of an art as it is a science, I think to put these guys on same court head-to-head will lend credence to whichever direction Geoff may be leaning, if the two are close in approximation.
And unless the Kings actually schedule a visit from Biyombo Bismack, I do not consider him a serious candidate. They may already have dismissed the media hype as overblown and excluded him from their short list. I hope I am wrong and the Kings have their eye on him. But if Geoff Petrie continues with his preference for skilled big men with more polished floor games, BB will be playing elsewhere.
"The Spurs subliment their statistics for the good of the team" Kings Coach PW.
Williams is high on draft boards because people think he can play the 3
with spot minutes at the 4. If Landry could have guarded SFs and hit the 3 like Derrick Williams we would not have traded him.
BREAKING: George Maloof has confirmed to The Bee's Tony Bizjak the Kings are staying. #HereWeStay
by sac_faithful on May 22, 2011 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Agree with you on Biyombo
I was high on him after we drew the 7th pick. I don’t expect him to be hand picked by Petrie either. However, I have this feeling that when Sammy is winding down in about 4 yrs. that Bismack might be making quite a name for himself. I hope I’m wrong though.
I would hope
the Kings bring BB to town if for no reason other than to do due diligence on all prospects. And one reason to hope this might happen is that Petrie had said recently he tries to accommodate his coaching staff where possible and PW has expressed desire to increase physicality and toughness. That was cited as one of the reasons behind the trade of K-Mart for Top Hat trade. So we will have to wait and see.
If PW is intrigued by BB as a Ben Wallace-type and nice complement to the offensive skill of DeMarcus, then it only makes sense to bring to Sactown for visit. If they don’t bother, then obviously they see limited potential to his game. At this point I would say BB is a long shot unless (1) invitation is offer and accepted (2) BB shows ability to do more than run, jump and dunk.
"The Spurs subliment their statistics for the good of the team" Kings Coach PW.
Maybe you are better off expressing yourself in pictures
Because your post does not make sense and says little of substance. I am not trying to offend but I have a pet peeve when fans try to complicate basketball. Basketball is not complicated.
By extension promotion can blur PoP accuracy
What does the heck does this mean? Please enlighten me. If an agent claims his client is a PG or a SF or C, and in fact he is not, then this somehow clouds the reality of the player and his ability or his true position? Um, no. Public perception is not swayed by the opinion of an agent because (1) agents are rarely quoted in the media regarding their basketball knowledge, and (2) it is known that agents are bias and their opinions are either respected within that context or dismissed for that reason.
"The Spurs subliment their statistics for the good of the team" Kings Coach PW.
I understood it - sorry that it's over your head
I sure hope that bte takes the time to explain it to you. Oh, and I am not trying to offend but I have a pet peeve when StR members insult other StR members.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I wasn't insulting him
That was not my intention. I am questioning the logic and substance, or lack thereof, of his post. I look forward to clear and concise explanation from you or BTE by what this means:
By extension promotion can blur PoP accuracy
Since this is statement is “over my head” and insults against StR members are a pet peeve of yours, I am sure you will be considerate and enlightening in your response.
"The Spurs subliment their statistics for the good of the team" Kings Coach PW.
Try the Bistro Burger at Paul Martins - it's delicious!
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
blob you were actually a little but insulting and you way over reacted to the light tone bte exhibited in his post
and when PoP accuracy merges with the positional revolution it only serves to give us a good season to argue if Reke = NaPG or perhaps he is/is not. Did agree with your opinion on MT23 though. He may not be CP3 but he has decent handles.
"It ain't Chinese algebra" - Tony Allen from Basketbawful
It seems to turn this way
When someone is not capable of supporting their position with logic and rationale. I would happy to discuss merits of someone’s point of view if they have a semblance of one. I don’t expect anyone to agree with my personal opinion and each has right to own. But please try to make sense!
For example, you are bright guy Blue based on your past posts, and I agree a lot with your opinions, but I just don’t get this:
When PoP accuracy merges with the positional revolution it only serves to give us a good season to argue if Reke = NaPG or perhaps he is/is not.
Huh? I know a lockout is pending, but no one alerted me to a revolution. Between this line and the line above I feel like I am in the StR twilight zone of threads. What am I missing? There can not be a positional revolution unless the rules of the game of basketball are radically altered. That is not happening.
There may be a player revolution gradually occurring, though I would not use that word. For example, it was said by Mark Jackson we have never seen PGs as athletic as Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook in the history of the NBA. This I can buy into. But some of this other stuff flies in the face of logic and it is not rude of me to point this out.
"The Spurs subliment their statistics for the good of the team" Kings Coach PW.
No, what is rude is opening a reply by saying
Maybe you are better off expressing yourself in pictures Because your post does not make sense and says little of substance.
Now, you can say that this is not insulting or offending, but it is. It just is. You could have asked your question without going down that path. And you’re a smart enough person to realize that.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on May 24, 2011 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Uhmm what..?
So, you picked out one word ‘revolution’ and then misuse it in your own context. Seeming to indicate that you really don’t get what was meant… Only to turn around and acknowledge that yes in fact the type of players in the NBA is changing. Which seems to indicate you actually did get what was meant in the first place.
So, you would just disagree on the word choice…? Or is that just one big red herring to mask the real issue of your last sentence that you don’t think it is rude to point out your own opinion, while completely ignoring that it was all about how you did that?
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
I love a good debate on hoops as much as anyone!
But thats not happening without a logical starting point. These statements are not logical starting points:
By extension promotion can blur PoP accuracy
When PoP accuracy merges with the positional revolution it only serves to give us a good season to argue if Reke = NaPG or perhaps he is/is not.
If you are capable of defining what is meant by these statements then when have a basis for discussion. Otherwise we are just wasting time.
"The Spurs subliment their statistics for the good of the team" Kings Coach PW.
I think those are pretty clear to me
My understanding of the first thing is that this is about hype and it isn’t just about agents. Players get hyped in the draft and the hype is often just that. When the hype gets too far from reality then it is more difficult for us to see just how pure skills and merits they may have or pure positionality they may be able to play.
You yourself answered the second issue about what the ‘positional revolution’ means and that is how the players in the NBA are changing.
For example, it was said by Mark Jackson we have never seen PGs as athletic as Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook in the history of the NBA.
Though I think what is being referenced also includes the value of tweener type players that can play multiple positions as well as huge mismatches being created by some players, such as Tyreke.
Irregardless, I don’t think there is any good done by trying to have a discussion when you start off by dismissing an argument that seems to not make sense without truly understanding it.
Perhaps if you took a minute or two to understand better what people are saying and value their opinions as much as your own it would be a good thing and lead to more positive dialog.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Just trying to help here
I think that sometimes what others are saying does makes sense, but if you don’t get it you may just be missing their point.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
'Stang
Kemba Walker is like Life – both are too short. Move on; piss ants only thrive on piss and they don’t care where it lands.
by betweentheeyes on May 24, 2011 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
In my experience it is best to keep pet peeves to ones own self
Elsewise the but that you use to address them needs another t and is more applicable to ones own self.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
I'm a PoP guy whenever possible myself
unless the player is just one of those guys that overcomes . . . . .
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
Great players don't need a position, they find room on the floor to just "be". The game revolves around them not the other way around.
In this weak draft, drafting a player who can play a position is more important. I agree, a superb skill in one area might overcome that fuzzy label of position.(In this draft, Jimmer is mentioned, though he really is going to face some tough time on the floor with say, Dwyane Wade guarding him). The guy in the draft who is perhaps the most superiorly skilled in one facet of the game is Kenneth Faried who can rebound something fierce.
by betweentheeyes on May 23, 2011 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Klay Thompson appears to be a prototype SG, perhaps Burks as well (switch as you like)
Kantor a true Center, and then . . . . . uhhhhm, – well? Biyombo on the rebounding and defensive end as well as Faried????
As you said, I don’t see any guys that will obviously overcome their deficiencies with an amazing or multitalented arsenal on one end or the other. Perhaps one or two of the Euros, I’m look forward to Eurocamp.
Next year, the draft might be 10-16 players deep and everyone in the lottery pretty happy.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on May 24, 2011 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I like Thompson
If for some reason we traded down wouldn’t mind taking him
Can't wait for October
by KingsFanInPortland on May 24, 2011 11:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Interesting read BTE, Rec'd
I don’t really watch college or euro ball so I don’t know the players, but have enjoyed reads like this one. Seems that the work outs are generally the deciding factor and will cut through the hype around the players. It will be interesting to see who gets picked.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
One other note I'd add in
I think PoP guys tend to understand their roles on a team better, they’re not trying to be all things -
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
case in point, Kings version
Donté Greene – defensive stalwart guarding 2’s and 3’s, 3 point specialist (gulp), all around utility player (which means what?), or not quite any of the above.
by betweentheeyes on May 24, 2011 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions
But where is he gonna play since he does not have a true position?
That would be on the floor.
by noreboundsnorings on May 24, 2011 4:30 PM PDT reply actions
in most cases
the floor in Reno or the practice facility
by betweentheeyes on May 24, 2011 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions
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