Jimmer Fredette, John Salmons And A Couple Steals: Are The Kings Better?
by Tom Ziller on Jun 24, 2011 9:58 AM PDT
in NBA Draft
Email
Print
The aim of the NBA Draft is to get better, obviously. Getting worse is what you do in the regular season, as players lose value by failing to live up to their potential, or by getting injured, or by getting older and losing their ability to perform at a high level, or by being so good they become expensive, leading to the injuries and the getting older and whatnot. Bad teams get worse in the offseason, between the draft, trades and free agent. Good teams get better. Bad teams seeking to become good get better. The Sacramento Kings are, and have been, a bad team. They need to get better to become good. This is the goal.
I'm not sure the Kings got better on the day of the 2011 NBA Draft.
If they had drafted Jimmer Fredette at No. 7, they would have gotten better. If they had taken anyone at No. 7, they would have gotten better, just to varying degrees. The draft pick who doesn't play up to the rookie scale's first two years of salary is rare. Ultra-rare. Even Quincy Douby played up to his rookie scale salary. It's hard to make a draft pick and get worse. And the Kings may very well have gotten a lot better with Fredette. I'm not convinced he'd make the team better than would have Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker, Kawhi Leonard, Marcus Morris, Bismack Biyombo or Chris Singleton. Maybe yes, maybe no. I'm not convinced, but I'm very possibly dead wrong. Maybe Jimmer was the best point guard in the draft.
Regardless, taken alone, Jimmer improves the team. But we can't take it alone because of what Sacramento did to justify taking Jimmer.
You cannot reasonably separate the Jimmer pick from the John Salmons-Beno Udrih trade, because without the pick -- that telegraphed, storyboarded pick -- you don't do that trade. It'd be the same if Kemba Walker were the pick at No. 10, had the Charlotte Bobcats gone wing at No. 9. The trade happened because of the pick. (Arguably, it doesn't happen if Walker is the pick unless the Kings also swap No. 9 and No. 10, because Charlotte was certainly a consideration in the draft lead-up for Walker.)
The Kings made the trade to clear the point guard decks for the pick, Jimmer. In doing so, the Kings added $10 million of salary for an older, worse player. They traded down, and the roster situation got worse. That doesn't happen. That's not supposed to happen.
Beno is better than Salmons. Salmons' best season resulted in 7.1 Win Shares. Beno had 7.2 on a 24-win team last season. Salmons has one season above 0.1 Win Shares per 48 minutes. Beno has four. Salmons' career PER is 13.1. Beno's is 14.1. And Beno is cheaper, younger and plays a more important/less replaceable position.
Is Salmons a better fit than Beno on a team with Jimmer, Tyreke Evans and Marcus Thornton in the backcourt and Donte Greene, Omri Casspi and Francisco Garcia at small forward? Sure. Definitely. Is that enough to make up for the difference in quality? Maybe. Is that enough to make up for the difference in quality and the difference in salary commitment? No. No. No way.
John Salmons is not a $10 million upgrade over Beno Udrih. No one can convince me of this.
The Kings would have been better off making Beno the fourth guard in the rotation and rolling with the Greene-Casspi-Garcia rotation again, even ignoring that they picked up a promising small forward in Tyler Honeycutt at No. 35. You want to make sure Fredette gets all of the minutes at point guard? Tell Paul Westphal to give Fredette all of the minutes, buy out Beno, send him to Celje. Preserve what precious cap space the team has, stop adding mediocre players like Salmons and get better, not worse.
Instead of justifying the pick the Kings wanted to make, they used the pick to justify a bad trade. Plenty of folks around the nation and world would have laughed or grimaced if the Kings took Jimmer over Knight and Walker at No. 7. The Kings would be the No. 1 story this morning, and most of the reaction would have been negative. But the result -- Jimmer, no Salmons -- would have been better for the team. We can deal with ridicule. A team actively getting worse on draft day? Tougher to swallow.
***
Don't take this as disappointment in Fredette or the Fredette choice. I'm excited to see what he can do. How this went down is driving me absolutely crazy, though.
402 comments
|
12 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
You're wrong Ziller
Grant said it’s a great trade. So it must be true. We got a veteran SF!!!!
Man I hope free agency goes better than this.
I'm excited about our new players and the moves we made.
Great time to be a Kings fan! We’ll be a playoff team soon and be breaking ground on a new arena.
Won't stop people from trying
John Salmons is not a $10 million upgrade over Beno Udrih. No one can convince me of this.
Interesting that over the past season, many of us have commented on how Beno is finally playing up to fair value for his contract. So we trade him for a guy who will be hard pressed to do the same, while moving down in the draft to take the same guy we would have taken at the 7?
It still makes zero sense to me.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
by otis29 on Jun 24, 2011 10:08 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I really don't get the point of getting upset about them moving down
I get saying your pissed they picked who they picked but given it seems like they were picking him anyway I really don’t see how that factors in at all. Either say you hate the pick or move on with that issue.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 24, 2011 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions
well, other than the whole "covering our ass" factor
by wallywagon11 on Jun 24, 2011 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
it was indeed a bad trade...
otis29, i have to agree with you in so many ways, just as i am with ziller. it was a bad trade, i never said, from the yesterday’s thread about jimmer, that it was a good trade. and yes, that’s 11 million dollars no matter how you look at it and it’s true that salmons is of no 11 million dollars over udrih. but because they drafted jimmer, and probably always wanted to from the start, they can’t afford udrih playing the 4th guard. there’s no value in a 7 million dollar bench guy, just as kenny thomas was, just as cisco was, just as shareef was, and many other players on different teams.
so instead, they got rid of an expensive 4th guard, and got someone who might actually get used more in salmons. yes, 11 million dollars put to use is better than 7 million dollars on the bench. it just had to happen that way. and it’s fine if they got a few million dollars in young players on the bench, that’s what those little millions are for, to warm the seats :D
They were still left with overpaying for a starting SF in free agency
At least they were able to dump Beno’s contract and their cap space is still the same.
sd377 wants to ban me for unleashing the Kaepernick Supernova Gamma Ray
I think people are overreacting a bit...
Beno may be better than Salmons, but Salmons is a better fit on this team. Another over looked aspect of the trade, is that we were going to have to pay Beno anyways. Salmons only makes a couple million more than Beno, so this doesn’t affect our cap space too much, and we probably saved money moving down the draft a few spots. Salmons is on par with a lot of the free agent small forwards people were talking about on here(Prince, Battier, etc.). So now we’ve got 4 spots in the starting line-up set(Evans, Thornton, Salmons, Cousins), 2 solid bench players(Thompson, Jimmer), and around 22 MILLION DOLLARS IN CAP SPACE (assuming Thornton gets around 7 Mil). Things are looking up guys, Petrie made it very clear that he’s not done dealing. Lets just wait and see. And it could be way worse, Anaheim could’ve traded for Salmons. Just saying.
by WhiteChocolate55 on Jun 24, 2011 10:10 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I would have laughed my ass off if Anaheim traded for Salmons,
but I know what you mean.
"He forced it to go in the net, and that's a good thing." -Jerry Reynolds
You might be right about the overreacting...
still it’s hard to go from a trade rumor of Tony Parker and Richard Jefferson to an actual trade for John Salmons. This was a letdown. Losing Beno is not a letdown for me. Taking on added money for Salmons was the kick in the stomach. He is a slight upgrade over our current SFs (perhaps Casspi being the exception), but not the homerun most of us hoped for.
Looking at things a bit clearer today, I think the Kings have improved over last year. We still have some moves that need to be made to shrink the SF backlog. There is still plenty of cap room to sign a quality player. We could use another big man.
I can’t pretend to completely justify the trade, but our defense did improve. We gave up a terrible defender in Beno and drafted Jimmer whose athleticsm should automatically make him better. Plus, Salmons is noted for his defense and has a decent shot. As long as he never dribbles the ball, I’d be okay.
If Demarcus and Tyreke take steps forward, we should definitely improve. Kind of hard not to from the last few years. Hopefully GP has a master plan. Either way, it is what it is.
El Ron can name that tune in one note.
yes this is a odd trade to swallow. I’m with everyone on the puzzling aspect. but, I think that the TP trade rumor is being blown way out of proportion. it seems that it was only mentioned as the spurs gauging interest and Sacramento and toronto being possible teams of interest. I think that we (kings fans) were so excited that we blew it up into an actual trade scenario (I meant there was like 4 front page articles on STR in like 20 minutes ). We have to remember that at this time of year there are a million and 1 “trade rumors” that are nothing more then internet fodder.
As I read the various responses to yesterday’s oddities, it seems like a lot of folks disappointment with the trade derives from the let down of feeling like TP was on his way. I don’t think that he was ever that close to becoming a king.
I will wait and see how things shake out. that being said, after a horrible year (3 seasons ago) Beno has been one of our most consistent and reliable shooters. I eventually enjoyed watching him play and take off on those crazy out of control spins to the hoop …and make a good amount of them. but, good luck to him ]. now, its jimmer’s time to shine.
He and Thornton could develop into a high powered machine that really wears down wing defenders and opens up the lane for Tyreke and Cousins….and yes, even Salmons.
opening night, Imma gonna be there. cheers
by gaindeyouth on Jun 24, 2011 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good points.
I’m not totally concerned with the $2.7 million in combined difference between Beno and Salmons over the next two seasons, the Kings have spent that much on Luther Head and Antoine Wright and although it hasn’t been mentioned, the Kings may have gotten cash back in this deal. The final year at $7.5 million is the pill that is tough to swallow…unless John Salmons is still averaging 14-15 points a game and playing solid defense.
With Jimmer in the fold, I just don’t see where Beno fits in. A fourth guard that doesn’t play defense or change the tempo? Beno was in line for a sharp decline in stats across the board in my opinion and the Kings are better served finding a defensive minded back-up who can come in to slow the Westbrook’s, Rose’s and Paul’s of the world.
I think this team improved because Jimmer can replace a lot of what Beno brought to the table and although he isn’t my first choice, John Salmons will be more consistent than the three headed SF monster of last season. There is still work to be done but a lot of cash to do it with and the new CBA might help us out a little.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
@James_Ham
by jjham15 on Jun 24, 2011 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 10 recs
+1
Way to put it in perspective.
I hated the trade at first, but only because I was expecting so much more. If this is our team when the season starts, yes, I’ll kill myself and my family. But I’m sure we’ll spend some money, get some players, shuffle our team around a bit and be VERY competitive next year.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Well if Jimmer was going to eat up Beno's minutes and stats (and thereby decrease his value)
What will John Salmons do to Cisco’s time as the #1 vet option?He will suffer the same fate (decreasing value as his stats decrease) as Beno under this scenario.
Does this mean that Cisco is out the door for whatever deal is made for the next trade acquisition? (along with either Casspi or Greene?)
by betweentheeyes on Jun 24, 2011 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Cisco and next year's #1 for Peja and the Mav's #1
by Kfan in Korea on Jun 24, 2011 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Hell no I am not giving up #1 next year with as stacked as it is and the Mavs are not gonna be horrible. You gotta go Cisco, Omri/Donte and 2013 1st if anything
Founder of team Omté Caspeen
Heh It was a joke
We traded Beno for an ex King to move down in the draft.
by Kfan in Korea on Jun 25, 2011 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Umm its saying goodbye to Casspi or Greene
Or they get the message to grow the f’up.
sd377 wants to ban me for unleashing the Kaepernick Supernova Gamma Ray
I was wondering about potential cash considerations attached to this deal.
Wouldn’t something like that be publicized by now?
It seems like all of our trades lately have included $3 million cash back. Is it out of the realm of possibility that the Maloofs we looking to get a few million now to stave off their financial problems? This is purely speculation. Just looking at a new way to further justify the trade.
El Ron can name that tune in one note.
dont think he is a better fit for this team.
he is a ball stopper on a team that already has 2-3 ball stoppers.
so you want him to just shoot the 3 and defend? so we traded for an $8million role player?
sure he did great things on the kings before… when martin was out and there was no tyreke or DMC or thornton or jimmer. he wont be the main option. when has he ever succeeded when he wasnt the main option?
At USC we're not snobs, we're just better than you.
by TrojanCBB on Jun 24, 2011 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes that is correct
Essentially you are paying 1.3 million (included 1mil saved in 7th to 10th drop) over the next two years and then the third years is TBD (as you will have a guy under contract for 7.5 mil but who knows what you will be paying for guys then) for a Small Forward who will likely start for you or at worst I would assume will be your role playing bench forward.
The other option was paying 1 million and not having the SF but instead having a PG who likely would have seen 10-12 minutes a game at best barring significant injuries.
I totally understand people questioning the deal as I think people have over-hyped Beno’s true value and I think people got false hope based on rumors (by the way of all of the rumors floated I dont think one actually came true.) But the bottom line is they either had to spend the money on Beno and kill his value has he got minimal minutes, or deal him now for a guy who by definition filled alot of your needs and a guy who I think will still be an easier trade down the road (playoff teams always want perimeter shooting and defense)
I think one key that we all agree on is the Salmons has to fall in line with a very specific role. He needs to be a corner three, make the defense pay type of guy and lock-down defensive guy. Now if the coaches and his teammates can get him to buy into that than this can work. (They need to do the same to Donte if he is retained) Hopefully they can do that. I think the circumstances from Salmon’s last stop here was far too different to judge him already for the new scenario personally.
I know we all have our opinions but Id still take a guy who will see the floor and possibly start versus a guy who would not.
by WebberDynasty on Jun 24, 2011 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
But the reason I dont think Salmons is a good fit on this team (or any team for that matter)
Is because he’s a mediocre offensive player who has the ball in his hands too much. If he were used as a Bruce Bowen-type defensive wizard who barely touches the ball, sure he’d be perfect. He clogs up the offense.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jun 24, 2011 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
The Kings are better this morning than they were yesterday morning.
The Salmons trade was a just a joke, right? I mean Petrie is going to announce that he was just kidding with this whole bringing Salmons back to Sac, right? Anyhow, a lot of sports writers really seem to like the Jimmer pick and are saying that Sacramento was one of the big draft winners, if that’s worth anything at all. I love that Isaiah Thomas was available at 60, I kinda hope he beats Pooh out for a spot on the team. Is Honeycutt any good? I know nothing about his game. I do think the Kings improved their roster though, even with John “black hole” Salmons coming back.
ESPN Radio
Absolutely laughing at us right now. Fuckers
The endless pounding.
A hole, blacker than despair.
John Salmons is back.
by twasserm on Jun 23, 2011
can't blame them.
if the Warriors made this trade, I’d be laughing at them.
Where's my pie
by TheFifthMookie on Jun 24, 2011 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 6 recs
Agreed, but it still stings!
How come everyone else in the world can see how awful this move is, but Geoff doesn’t!? Another thing, I am so tired of Grant saying 1 thing, and then changing it a few years later. He used to absolutely rip on Salmons, now he loves the guy? How about a bit of integrity, please!?
The endless pounding.
A hole, blacker than despair.
John Salmons is back.
by twasserm on Jun 23, 2011
by Dirkula on Jun 24, 2011 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
W/e you like it or not
ESPN is right. It’s hard to make a dumber trade.
Children, before you go to sleep check under your bed for the BOOGIE MAN!!
That does it
I’m now convinced it was a good move.
In most polarizing arguments, the truth is found somewhere in the middle.
Follow me on Twitter
Author of Inside-Out Game
by Exhibit G on Jun 24, 2011 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
i disagree totally
we are a better team no doubt in my mind. we improved at the sf and we got a proven knock down shooter
"im not a celtic or a laker... im a king... find me on florin with a mouth full of bling" mac dreeeeeeeeezy
Forgive me if this has been brought up
I haven’t gone through every comment of the 1,000+ comments since the Salmons thing happened…
What happens if for some reason someone fails a phsyical or there is another reason the trade does not officially go through? Would we then retain Beno and get Biyombo?
the trade is a done deal.
It was completed before the 2nd round even ended.
by JVinci on Jun 24, 2011 10:37 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I really hope that Salmons comes in and just kills it for us
and I mean that in a good way. I don’t think that he will, but I really hope I’m wrong. I’m going to start looking up good Crow recipes just to be safe.
100% agree
I hope Salmons comes in here in the best shape of his life, is a willing mentor to young SFs on the team, shoots lights out from 3 and locks down opposing SFs, all while not dribbling too much.
If he’s got a team attitude and willingness to defer playmaking, he really is a pretty good fit for the position.
it’s a pretty big IF though, based on 2007/2008 evidence.
Where's my pie
by TheFifthMookie on Jun 24, 2011 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's possible
He has been playing in some cold weather cities for quite a while now. He might just be thankful to get back to some Cali sunshine! Crosses fingers
The endless pounding.
A hole, blacker than despair.
John Salmons is back.
by twasserm on Jun 23, 2011
by Dirkula on Jun 24, 2011 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd for Cali Sunshine
from Chicago where the high will be 65 (- wind chill) today.
時國王驕奢，不遵典憲。 《後漢書》
Absolutely
Big if. I highly doubt it happens, but if Westphal can get him to buy in to a team first concept he could be good for us.
This time around, hope he realizes he has a different role...
Hopefully a different outcome!!!
DieHard SacKings/ BuffaloBills fan...
I don't see it
Salmons is on the wrong side of 30… If the Kings are hoping for the Salmons circa. 2007-2009, you are in for a rude awakening.
Children, before you go to sleep check under your bed for the BOOGIE MAN!!
The trade disgusts me: indefensible, ridiculous, absurd
The draft itself: not bad. Petrie strikes again. Unfortunately the trade and the draft picks don’t exist in a vacuum. Taken together, altogether mystifying.
Trading for John Salmons at this stage of his career and adding money would be the type of trade Charlotte is known for. There is no reason to have picked up Salmons to justify drafting Fredette. If the FO likes Jimmer, draft him and then make a trade for Beno down the road. It looks like it may be a long while before NBA hoops is played, there is plenty of time. If management was afraid of looking silly by reaching for Jimmer at 7 or looking like David Kahn by stocking the team with a huge amount of point guards they didn’t achieve their objective. They look silly now, they look absurd. As fans of this team we got Kahnnnnnnnnned!
"It ain't Chinese algebra" - Tony Allen from Basketbawful
by Bluejohn on Jun 24, 2011 10:26 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I'm confused
Why do we bring John Salmons back to Sacramento after he already played here and we let him go? If anything though, Beno Udrih was a very lovable and efficient player but the Kings brass decided that a change was necessary. Jimmer definitely has more potential than Beno and Salmons will provide good d and decent scoring. Looking at our sf production from last year, often times you didn’t know what you were going to get from game to game, I do think Salmons will be more consistent then Cisco, Omri or Donte. I’m not saying it still wasn’t a bad trade as far as salaries are concerned but there is a reason why teams like the Chicago Bulls added Salmons for the playoff push, the guy can flat fill it up when he’s on.
by Cincy Kings Fan on Jun 24, 2011 10:27 AM PDT reply actions
When Salmons was let go he was more a sweetener, he was added to soften the blow of brad millers contract.
But I agree with you, I still don’t want him back.
Salmons should have his salary reduced for every second he's not using the shot clock efficiently
Westphal needs to have Salmons practicing hot-potato while the rest of the team has regular practice. We already have a slasher who goes to the rim in Tyreke… and he also will dribble the ball into the floor waiting for a seam… Salmons cannot be allowed to murder the offense again. He needs to move without the ball, shoot mid range jumpers, set screens, shoot threes when open and facilitate. If he does this is and plays his standard solid defense he can be an asset. He won’t though, and that’s why we’re all so bent sideways about this. We watched this dude be a primary player on the worst Kings teams in history… and when they got rid of him it was a huge relief… and then we got Evans and Cousins and things were looking up big time… and then we lose 3 spots in the draft just to bring back terrible memories of ineptness!?
If the trade never happened I think most Kings fans would be very positive about the draft itself… and if we lost Beno (who I love) it wouldn’t be the end of the world… and if we lost Garcia and Greene it could be good to clear out the mediocrity… but bringing in a chemistry killer, offensive black hole and former retread, while (at this point) keeping adding to all the SF mediocrity makes me want to scream in Petrie’s face.
by mavisdory on Jun 24, 2011 10:28 AM PDT reply actions 4 recs
"Westphal needs to have Salmons practicing hot-potato while the rest of the team has regular practice"
Literally laughed out loud at this, thank you!
The endless pounding.
A hole, blacker than despair.
John Salmons is back.
by twasserm on Jun 23, 2011
Zero sum - not much better or worse
We just traded holes in our game IMO. We improved defensively at the SF slot with Salmons, but lost ball handling and passing at the PG. It really is just swapping deficiencies in the roster.
I will agree with the premise that did not improve, but I just don’t think we got that much worse.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Anytime you add Jimmer, you get better.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Keep in mind Salmons is a very good ball handler for a SF
So we didn’t really lose ball handling in the deal. We just shifted it to the wing. Which is fine, because we just drafted a PG who can shoot lights out.
I’m not a fan of the trade. But as a team, we certainly got better.
Is it fair to say that some of the blame for this trade
should be placed on Donte Greene? He had two years to develop a postgame, at 6’10’’, and simply just get better. Is that too much to ask for? There’s just something unlikeable about Salmons, although he is hands down an upgrade at the SF position. If Honeycutt can develop into our starting SF in a couple years, we should hopefully be able to put this trade behind us.
Does anyone watch Donte during warmups?
His actions during warmups tell a tale of a guy who doesn’t have a very good work ethic. Instead of shooting the ball, he runs around interacting with the crowd, dancing, singing, everything but getting ready to play basketball.
The glass is usually twice as big as it needs to be.
I agree
Donte Greene has definitely been the biggest draft bust since Douby and he is the main reason why we haven’t found consistency at the sf spot. Pretty annoying to me that we wasted a 1st rounder on him and he has his own reality show and whatnot but the guy plain sucks and he is being paid to ride the bench year after year.
by Cincy Kings Fan on Jun 24, 2011 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, maybe he just sorta sucks.
He doesn’t have the appearance of someone who has his head in the game. He acts more like the team’s designated cheerleader/goofus and is content to be 11th/12th guy on the roster. I know, sounds kinda harsh… but this is the bigs. Come and play hard or don’t play at all.
Purveyor of Bull Plop
I'll agree with you on that.
Every once in a while though Greene flashes some sweet talent, just wish he’d keep flashing it more than every once in a while. He seems like a likable teammate and he’s also good to have around for a punching bag in case DMC gets pissed off. I say lets keep him around!
Didn't waste a 1st rounder on him
He came in the deal to dump Artest … technically Casspi also came in that deal but the Kings drafted Casspi.
sd377 wants to ban me for unleashing the Kaepernick Supernova Gamma Ray
We upgraded Beno with Jimmer! Not Salmons.
I’m not sad at all to see Beno go. Jimmer’s defense CAN’T be worse then Beno’s. And at the very least, we have some trade assets at the SF.
The glass is usually twice as big as it needs to be.
His defense could be worse.
His ball handling could be worse. His ball distribution could be worse. Hell his shooting ability could be worse. It all COULD be worse. No one knows how Jimmer will do in the NBA. Regardless of if you liked Beno or not, we knew what he could provide at the NBA level.
No it can't, Beno's D was no bueno!
And his average offensive game wasn’t enough to make up for it.
If all Jimmer does is create enough buzz for the new arena to be built, this will be a very successful pick up.
The glass is usually twice as big as it needs to be.
I have no problems
if the Buzz Jimmer creates gets an arena built…but you do realize that we didn’t have to drop Beno to get Jimmer, right? They are mutually exclusive events even if GP tries to convince us otherwise.
I am also not denying that that Beno’s D was “no bueno”…but to say Jimmer’s defense “can’t” be worse is ridiculous because you “can’t” know that. Neither can I. All we can do is hope and cross our fingers. Which really is all you can do with any draft pick.
Beno for all of his faults
Was a reliable, solid PG and was the veteran leader of the team. When the Kings got in trouble, Beno tried to get the Kings going again.
Children, before you go to sleep check under your bed for the BOOGIE MAN!!
No offense to you
…but I hate it when people say “no bueno”. That’s not Spanish.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
by JediLeroy on Jun 24, 2011 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I thought about doing a Google image search using this terminology, but changed my mind
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
Just did it.
Meh.
"He forced it to go in the net, and that's a good thing." -Jerry Reynolds
by Juan Primo on Jun 24, 2011 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Non taken, and me too,
I’m glad I won’t have to say it anymore now that he’s gone.
The glass is usually twice as big as it needs to be.
To me, this is Ziller's most foolish blog post ever, and points to the absurdity of trusting stats more than your own
two eyes. It was painful to read.
Beno was excess baggage. So you trade him. Addition by subtraction. No brainer.
We need a 3 who can defend three positions, handle the ball, and hit the corner 3. We’ve now got him. Addition by addition.
And we have plenty more money to add another FA.
No one can convince Tom that Salmons is a $10 million upgrade over Beno. But no one has to. All we need to be convinced of is that we made the team better, and didn’t ham-string our ability to make further deals.
TZ, I admire your work, and mostly enjoy your writing, but the idea that we’d be better off paying to send Beno away and rolling with our ineffective, unreliable, inconsistent SFs makes me glad TZ is where he is and GP is where he is.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
by Holmdel on Jun 24, 2011 10:30 AM PDT reply actions 12 recs
I have to question the people who like bringing Salmons back...
how many of you watched most or all of the games when he was here last time. I did and that’s why I’m horrified by this. I think most of us who are, are the ones who watch Salmons night in and night out in a Kings uniform. It’s fucked up.
by mavisdory on Jun 24, 2011 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
I was glad to see Salmons go the first time, actually. And I'd much rather have Tayshaun Prince, and I do agree
with the idea that leopards don’t change their spots, but the fact is Salmons is a significant upgrade over our SFs.
When Salmons left, we were in demo mode. Now we are building around our young guys. We don’t need Salmons to be a foundation, we just need him to be a better 3 than Casspi and Greene, and he is that in spades.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Tayshaun Prince and John Salmons are nearly identical since 2003 stat-wise.
Pookey pointed that out and I think it’s a good point.
by VenomySnicket on Jun 24, 2011 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
why all the love for Prince and diss for Salmons? Prince went on strike last year and led a revolt against his coach. I don’t recall Salmons ever being that bad behaved. Prince has been on the same Detroit team that has sucked the air out the ball the last few seasons. some of that has to stick to him as well. Im not anti prince nor super hyped about salmons, I just don’t all the hyperbole regarding the two.
by gaindeyouth on Jun 24, 2011 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
We need a 3 who can defend three positions, handle the ball, and hit the corner 3.
You mean like Francisco Garcia?
by Dub_TC on Jun 24, 2011 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
francisco sucks
Other than a locker room leader, he has not helped this team become better.
by JVinci on Jun 24, 2011 10:48 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
francisco is in no way a legit starter or defender at the 3
he gets hit with a strong wind and he’s out 3-6 weeks, you want him to match up with lebron or melo for 35 minutes?
by lchristmas on Jun 25, 2011 6:21 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I mean, unless I'm hoping to get 75 cents on the dollar
Maybe I’ll be so rich someday I’ll need to give something back. Like the Maloofs, apparently.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
remind me to never let you run my NBA team
because while you obsess over the dollars involved in a trade, the other guys will be improving their teams and winning titles.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
by Holmdel on Jun 24, 2011 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
Oh, didn't realize that giving up Beno for Salmons was winning us any titles
Well done then, Petrie.
I have no problem with them spending the dollars. I’d just rather they spent them on better players and not devalue their own assets.
Congrats though on being excited by moving down in the draft via swapping a decent NBA player for a subpar NBA player. With that philosophy, I’m sure the titles won’t be far behind.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
by otis29 on Jun 24, 2011 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Now now, children.
Agree to disagree.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
It's going to be a niiiiice 4+ years.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't quite agree
I think we improved the SF position at the expense of the PG position. Beno could carry the offense and was becoming a much better passer at the end of the season. Not that he was awful before that, but without him we are left with less ball handling and passing.
PG skills are harder to replace than wing skills. IMO we did not improve the team at all. It just fills a hole by digging another one at a different position.
It is true that we did not subtract from our cap space for the next two years, but we added a lot to 3 years from now.
This really does not improve the team. It is not clear that Jimmer can contribute more than Beno or that Salmons will be that much of an upgrade over Cisco.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
by MustangMBS on Jun 24, 2011 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think GP believes Jimmer will contribute a heap more than Beno...remains to be seen, but I think if you polled
NBA GMs they’d probably be unanimous in making that prediction.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Project upside over proven NBA talent is always tricky
Jimmer is a proven scorer, but not a ball facilitator or passer. I like him as a scorer, but with Thornton not seeming to be much of a passer I think we need more passing with Beno gone.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
I agree with you.
We need someone to feed everyone the ball. Beno was a proven asset; proven at the point.
The key to any game is to use your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
-Paul Westphal
Did you read the article in the Bleacher Report...
The key to any game is to use your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
-Paul Westphal
I loved beno and will miss him
but he was a scoring combo guard, let’s not revisionist him into john stockton lite
by lchristmas on Jun 25, 2011 8:54 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I think you'd be very surprised by the response
Especially if you asked them if they would have made the same deal if they were in Petrie’s shoes.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
I don't think it's all about Jimmer
People seem to forget that Salmons can handle the rock. We didn’t devoid our team of ball handlers. Jimmer will get his shot, but Salmons will use some of the possessions Beno had.
Pure conjecture.
Your post doesn’t have a grain of fact within it.
Beno was a known commodity. We have THE LOWEST payroll in the NBA and shipped Beno. There appear to have been better options out there. We could have pursued these without giving up Beno. The guy was probably our most consistent and offensively balanced contributor.
by Hoops Mike on Jun 24, 2011 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pure conjecture.
There appear to have been better options out there. We could have pursued these without giving up Beno.
…this is fun
by markdog333 on Jun 24, 2011 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
Pure conjecture.
…this is fun
Oh, wait. It was fun. May have been fact.
by Kfan in Korea on Jun 24, 2011 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions
PW mentioned having an SF with a post up game
Cisco/Greene/Casspi can’t post up. Salmons can. He’s also an upgrade defensively. Now I’m not a Salmons fan, at all. But hands down, he is an upgrade at the SF position
Clearly he is and I agree, but my point is that leaves a hole at PG
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Hopefully Isaiah Thomas makes the team
I think him and Thornton are solid backup PGs. My guess is that they expect Jimmer to play significant minutes right away
I view him as a combo guard
Solid ball-handler and playmaker/passer. He can definitely eat up some minutes at the PG position I think
Would you call him a combo guard if he was two inches taller and had the same exact game?
"He forced it to go in the net, and that's a good thing." -Jerry Reynolds
I agree that he is more of a SG
But you can’t deny that he has solid ball-handling and playmaking skills. He was just relied on a little more to score rather than facilitate. Bottom line is if you can start alongside Reke, you have to have some PG skills.
This is like projecting upside to a draft prospect with no demonstrated skills
Thornton did not seem to have much of a passing game. You can argue that passing was not his role, but it really did not need to be. If he had any sort of a passing game he would have a lot more assists per game. Not sure how you can argue something when there is no evidence to support it.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Well then PW is wrong
because I got that not only from what I’ve seen but what PW said in an interview
Do you have a link?
The key to any game is to use your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
-Paul Westphal
No, he is the guy you feed. The feedee.
He is not the feeder.
The key to any game is to use your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
-Paul Westphal
let me ask another question
if Salmons is such a better SF …. why’d we get rid of him in the first place?
He didn't help the team win games.
I don’t believe that has changed.
by VenomySnicket on Jun 24, 2011 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
He was the cost of moving a bad contract
However, it’s no surprise he was dealt at the time. He had a rep as a moody loner, and a black hole on offense.
I do agree with many others that he’s an upgrade at the SF spot, but I think we could have done better down the road via trade or free agency.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
by otis29 on Jun 24, 2011 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Adding him in the deal...
that was the dump Brad Miller’s contract trade. Plus they had to feel that between Donte and Omri, one of them was going to grow into a starting 3.
there was no omri at the time and donte was D-leaguing/bench surfing at at the time. it was a salary dump of miller’s contract.
by gaindeyouth on Jun 24, 2011 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
How is Salmons better?
Because he gets stats? He only gets them because he dominates the ball! Take the ball out of his hands, make him only focus on defense and maybe he can work out. The problem is, he pounds, pounds, pounds the ball and then makes a drive to the basket. Its the very same complaint many of us have with Tyreke! The difference is Tyreke is young, and will learn to change this, hopefully. John Salmons is what he is, and what he is is not going to make this team any better, or fun to watch.
The endless pounding.
A hole, blacker than despair.
John Salmons is back.
by twasserm on Jun 23, 2011
He is an instant upgrade on D
and whether we have Beno or Jimmer, this was an area that needed to be addressed. The main issue that seems to bothering folks is the salary and chemistry issues. I think adding a net total of 1 mil (roughly) isn’t that bad, and chemistry-wise, this is a completely different group than the one that was here last time Salmons donned Sactown purple, so if he stays and he can be a REAL leader and not a jacker / ball hog, then I think there’s a very good possibliity we all look back on current criticisms as being a bit harsh. I’m not in love with the trade, but don’t believe its as bad as it may look right now, and that’s without suggesting we may be absorbing his contract in preparation for a sign and trade of a better all around talent (crosses fingers and clicks heels….)
...Watching DeMarcus Cousins’ transformation from large human to immortal kill beast...
I do recall him being a strong addition to the Bulls team that was so bad that they had the Number 1 pick a year before and they made a surprise playoff showing that had the country all a titter. He should get some cred for that as well as the black hole tag. just to be balanced
by gaindeyouth on Jun 24, 2011 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
He doesn't have the stats
Salmons was less productive than even Garcia. He was about the same productivity as Omri Casspi. Where is the upgrade? I don’t see it.
Children, before you go to sleep check under your bed for the BOOGIE MAN!!
He can be counted on for 30 minutes a night
Kings were lucky to get those combined minutes from Casspi and Greene.
sd377 wants to ban me for unleashing the Kaepernick Supernova Gamma Ray
Your eyes have totally deceived you!
1. Beno was excessive baggage? He was arguably the Kings most reliable player last year, played in 79 games started 64 games. Had better efficiency rating than Salmons.
2. We need a 3 that can defend 3 positions, hit the corner 3’s and handle: We have that in Francisco Garcia. He can do all those things that you said. And he doesn’t cost 30 million dollars over the next three years. John Salmons creates an unnecessary logjam of mediocrity at the 3. Garcia had a better year last year than Salmons albeit the injury.
3. There was no reason to trade for John Salmons at all.
This trade is just so unnecessary: We got more salary liability, got an older player who was less productive and felt the need to MOVE DOWN in the process?
Who the hell cares what the national media thinks. If you think Jimmer is the guy at 7 then pick him. Jimmer probably isn’t ready to be a starting PG in the NBA and he can learn under the tutelage of Udrih. Why get an older, less productive and more expensive player while moving down in the draft?
For rebuilding teams, you want to pick up value and the Kings lost on every count.
Children, before you go to sleep check under your bed for the BOOGIE MAN!!
His point is not that we should have kept Beno for Beno
The Kings have claimed they want to improve the product on the floor. Just looking at the picks, it seems they’ve done just that.
Beno was a valuable asset, and in a package with Omri, that offer may have raised some eyebrows around the league. Maybe gets you a Marvin Williams here, an Iggy or Danny Granger with a future first attached.
Salmons is not a 10 million dollar upgrade over Beno, and that’s the biggest problem here. We know Salmons, we know his game, and we know that he is only effective when he starts. We are not making the playoffs under our current construction with Salmons as our starting SF. To that same point, the team might make the playoffs with Beno as the starting PG. We shifted from a “might not/strong possibility of not” to a “won’t” and teams aren’t supposed to do that.
This trade was bad because the franchise mismanaged assets. I believe Beno (and Casspi/Greene) could’ve gotten more than Salmons.
by VenomySnicket on Jun 24, 2011 10:40 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
You have an inflated value for Beno then
Beno is widely looked around the league as a bad contract. Nobody pays MLE for a back-up PG.
Beno has played up to his contract over the past two years.
Miami, for example, would love to have him. Salmons has also played to his contract, BUT he isn’t a good team player in terms of an offensive fit. We’ve been there.
by VenomySnicket on Jun 24, 2011 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
This is based off of the teams he was playing on for the last few years
Salmons was practically the number 1 or 2 option on the last three teams he played on, of course he was going to pound the ball. It remains to be seen whether he will be ok with taking a backseat, but he’s hardly had that chance yet.
Bogut isn't that special offensively and neither is Jennings
Especially since Bogut played hurt for a large portion of the year. Salmons took more shots than Bogut
All I see are lots of excuses for Salmons' performance last season and during his tenure with the Kings
If there’s a negative about him, it’s pooh-poohed as the team environment he was in.
Interesting how that keeps happening to him.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
What was wrong with Salmons' performance with the Kings?
He had a pretty damn good season that last year, he was bandied around as one of the bargain contracts in the NBA. The only complaints I remember were that he pounds the ball too much, and in all seriousness, what would you rather have that season? Nobody else could create for others consistently; Martin got his own offense, Beno was having a down year; it was the choice between Salmons pounding and a Garcia pick and roll or a Thompson post up.
by Scirocco on Jun 24, 2011 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
What young players?
Douby?
The only other notable young players were JT and Hawes. I don’t think Salmons hindered their developments.
by Skinny Pete on Jun 24, 2011 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Jennings can't shoot to save his life
sd377 wants to ban me for unleashing the Kaepernick Supernova Gamma Ray
From Hollinger today
Measured by player efficiency rating, Udrih has been better than Salmons each of the past two seasons; last year the difference was pretty sizable, with Udrih at 15.70 and Salmons at 12.89. Salmons is a better defender; Udrih is a more preferrable teammate. While the difference between the two isn’t large, it’s bizarre to trade down in the draft to make this swap, especially given the next three considerations.
Not that I think Hollinger is great, but it somewhat debunks the “Beno is widely looked around the league as a bad contract” bit.
The endless pounding.
A hole, blacker than despair.
John Salmons is back.
by twasserm on Jun 23, 2011
They played on two different teams and different systems
Scientifically Hollinger should have written Beno is more efficient on the Kings roster than Salmons on the Bucks roster. Unless Hollinger has shown team and system are irrelevant in determining player efficiency.
sd377 wants to ban me for unleashing the Kaepernick Supernova Gamma Ray
by bignerd on Jun 24, 2011 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Omri + Cap Space + Slamson
could net something pretty damn good too
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
by Holmdel on Jun 24, 2011 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
In what universe is Beno tempting at all?
Adding Beno to Casspi deflates Casspi’s value. Thats just the reality of it.
by Scirocco on Jun 24, 2011 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, I'm not wrong at all
Beno has neutral to negative value.
Show your work, please
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
by otis29 on Jun 24, 2011 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Let me put it this way
Beno makes 7.2 million this year and 7.8 million next year. Kirk Hinrich, who is a superior player and actually plays defense, makes 9 million this year and 8 million next year. The gap between them is much more than a net 2.4 million over two years.
What makes you think Kirk Hinrich is a superior player?
Statistically, I’d say Beno has been better than Hinrich for at least the last two seasons. Hinrich’s a bit better defender, but Beno’s pretty clearly a better offensive player.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
by otis29 on Jun 24, 2011 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
For what it's worth
Although I am not quire sure this is accurate (I personally think his value as an asset was straight up mid second rounder but whatever) either way he was pretty good for the Kings but this is an example of how people here viewed Beno as an asset before yesterday, as in the day before.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 24, 2011 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Your post is beyond dumb.
Look at Beno’s last two years.
As a part of a guard rotation, Beno is a great player to have.
by Hoops Mike on Jun 24, 2011 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I respectfully disagree
I think that Udrih was roughly fair value, perhaps a little under. As much as I don’t like this deal, I don’t think that Scirocco’s statement is that much of a stretch. It certainly was not “beyond dumb,” in my opinion.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jun 24, 2011 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd agree Beno's contract was fair value
It rated out to be around the 30th highest PG contract in the league. Justifiable as low end PG or high end backup PG.
sd377 wants to ban me for unleashing the Kaepernick Supernova Gamma Ray
It seems you have a misunderstanding of value in the NBA.
by VenomySnicket on Jun 24, 2011 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Beno has some value to some people, but it's middling niche value
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
The Nuggets gave up Raymond Felton for Andre Miller (another middling niche PG)
We couldn’t have swooped in and offered Beno + Casspi for Chandler?
by VenomySnicket on Jun 24, 2011 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
have we been fighting off Beno's suitors all these years and I missed it?
now that he’s gone, suddenly he’s the linchpin of any deal we ever could have made?
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
All these years?
Try to keep up. Most of us think he’s become fair value in the last two seasons.
You have to look at the other side as well. You think there was a huge market for John Salmons, or was it just Geoff Petrie?
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
by otis29 on Jun 24, 2011 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
In the immortal words of Tom Ziller- "The world is not your trade machine."
The Kings were rumored to be in on the Felton deal so I’m sure they ran a few of these combo’s by the Nuggets.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
@James_Ham
by jjham15 on Jun 24, 2011 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd actually rather have Beno
sd377 wants to ban me for unleashing the Kaepernick Supernova Gamma Ray
by bignerd on Jun 24, 2011 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
beno + Omri would not bring us Granger, nor Iggy, nor Gay, or any other cornerstone SF.
by gaindeyouth on Jun 24, 2011 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
People are overreacting
Salmons isn’t Granger. He isn’t Iggy. He isn’t being flipped for Tony Parker. But people are acting like the Kings traded for my dad yesterday! Salmons can score, and Salmons can defend. He’s not a franchise SF, but the Kings don’t need that. The real question is if/how he’ll fit in. How he’ll fit his game into this roster. While there are some VERY strong opinions about that, none of us really know. If he plays the complimentary role well, then the Kings moved a defenseless PG for a serviceable SF. Sure, he costs more money, but he also fills a bigger need than Beno does. for the Kings to improve, Beno can’t be the starting PG. Maybe they drafted their future PG, maybe he’s still out there. but he wasn’t Beno. Look for the Kings to move Garcia and/or Omri and bring in a veteran guard and another big man to round out this roster.
Stop looking at the bowl of eggs and cake mix and wait for the final product to come out of the oven before freaking out too much over one day of the offseason.
Salmons can score
at the expense of a fluid offense (not that we really have one, but now – no chance), and he can defend at the expense of the team offense.
Iggy is available. Beno was our most interesting asset (besides Casspi). Beno, Casspi, and a Future 1st might have gotten the job done. I don’t know.
by VenomySnicket on Jun 24, 2011 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
point well taken, you don’t know. but I bet GP does know and he moved his attention to deals that would work instead of pounding his head against his computer.
by gaindeyouth on Jun 24, 2011 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
You do realize he played here before, and most of us remember him?
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
Come on now
Beno is better than Salmons. Salmons’ best season resulted in 7.1 Win Shares. Beno had 7.2 on a 24-win team last season. Salmons has one season above 0.1 Win Shares per 48 minutes. Beno has four. Salmons’ career PER is 13.1. Beno’s is 14.1. And Beno is cheaper, younger and plays a more important/less replaceable position.
This is exactly how advanced stats can be used to manipulate a player’s worth. John Salmons is absolutely a better player than Beno Udrih. We all saw it when they were on the same team. Beno is a more efficient offensive player, but he hasn’t been the focal point of an offense like Salmons has FORCED to become. When he was, he had his worst year with the Kings and earned a reputation has a bad contract. And using career PER? Seriously? Implicitly using those Philly years to underplay Salmons’ ability is just bad journalism.
Salmons is a comparable spot up shooter to Beno. He is also a massively better defender. His role was different than Beno’s to the point where Beno could play off of superior threats, while Salmons had to create on the worst offensive team in the league last year. Lets be real, any team relying on Salmons or Beno to be focal points in their offense is going to be terrible. However, lets compare apples to apples.
When you factor in that we’re paying Fredette less than we would have if we picked 7th, the hit is roughly 7.9 million over the next few years. If you’d tell me before the draft that we upgraded the SF position significantly for the cost of a bit above the MLE level for a year, while also getting the guy the Kings were going gaga for, I’d take that any day. I think its because people have an ingrained memory of Salmons being forced to create on a 17 win team that there is so much outrage.
by Scirocco on Jun 24, 2011 10:44 AM PDT reply actions 10 recs
thank you!
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
If you’d tell me before the draft that we upgraded the SF position significantly
I’m not sure that word means what you think it means.
And Beno Udrih has more value as a point guard in this league than John Salmons does as a SF.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
by otis29 on Jun 24, 2011 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Over Donté, absolutely. Over Casspi, less so but yes
Over Cisco, yes but by not nearly as much. Over many other potential acquisitions – hell no.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
What have you heard...
about “other potential acquisitions”? Are there any examples of SF’s that would be available and who would possibly want to come here? It would be interesting to know who SF options in the free agency world have been…
Agreed on Casspi. Salmons is definitely better, but probably not by as much as people think.
"He forced it to go in the net, and that's a good thing." -Jerry Reynolds
Can Casspi post up? Can he defend consistently?
Can he even drive to the hoop?
In order: Definitely not, no, and hell no.
But he can shoot, rebound, he’s more likely than Salmons to improve with more playing time, and—unlike Salmons—he doesn’t dominate the ball too much and there’s little to no risk he’ll get in the way of other players.
I still definitely start Salmons over Omri. That’s not in question. I’m just saying the gulf between the two probably isn’t as large as people think.
"He forced it to go in the net, and that's a good thing." -Jerry Reynolds
Can he run the shot clock down from 18 to 2?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jun 24, 2011 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I really have no idea what you're basing this on
He’s not going to hog the ball on this team. He was the second best scorer on our horrible 17 win team and was forced to try to create offense. He won’t get stripped when posting up the small PGs that will be guarding him
Not to mention
the same can be said of Casspi who has small hands and can’t put the ball on the floor
Just making a silly comment is all
Don’t take that one seriously.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
Good
That was a bit of a head-scratcher. The serious and silly are starting to converge, hard to tell which is which hehe
Will Salmons be asked to post up anyone?
he’s 6-6 so how many SF’s in the league will he be asked to post up. Most are taller and stronger.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Westphal
mentioned that a lot of teams play a 3 guard rotation now and having Salmons, Reke and Thornton on the floor would leave “nowhere to hide”, meaning we would abuse a 3 guard rotation with their size.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Also
A lot of teams put their point guard on Donte or Casspi since they knew they had no isolation game, allowing them to use their 2/3 on Tyreke/Thornton/Beno. Now they have to use a legitimate defender against Salmons.
Head Editor of JaguarsBlog
Follow me on Twitter
by CaliforniaJag on Jun 24, 2011 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Basketball is a two way street, and you're going to have advantages and disadvantages
for every situation there are exceptions. the 3 guard rotation is an exception and not the norm.
When we played the redacted in the last game of the season, we tried to run a 3 guard rotation with Tyreke playing the SF, and Artest posted him up until we went back to the normal rotation. The odds are that with Salmons at the 3 we’ll probably see more teams posting him up, then us taking advantage of a 3 man guard rotation.
And, if PW isn’t posting up SF’s with 6-9 Casspi and 6-11 Greene, I can’t see him running postups for Salmons who only played 8% of the SF minutes last season. Especially since most 3 guard rotations are going to have their biggest guard playing the 3.
Although, I’d really like to see us with a PG who can actually get the ball down low so we could take advantage of a size mismatch. It just doesn’t happen all that often.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Jun 24, 2011 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
...
if PW isn’t posting up SF’s with 6-9 Casspi and 6-11 Greene, I can’t see him running postups for Salmons who only played 8% of the SF minutes last season
The reason for that was because Casspi and Greene have non-existent post games. Or at least that’s what it seemed like; I don’t have any kind of inside knowledge.
I would guess that Salmons played mostly SG for the Bucks because they had a glut of wing players…Mbah a Moute, Delfino, Maggette, and Douglas-Roberts all played minutes at SF. They had very little in terms of depth at guard, so Salmons played mostly guard. The Kings don’t need Salmons to play SG; they have Tyreke, Thornton (I’m assuming), Jimmer, and Garcia that can all play guard, so Salmons’ best fit is likely at SF.
Head Editor of JaguarsBlog
Follow me on Twitter
by CaliforniaJag on Jun 24, 2011 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Too many treads, got this confused with the
Salmons can post up on a 3 guard rotation.
But, yes Greene has the size and length to post up, and has done so against Power Forwards when he has had to play there. In my opinion and has been for several years now, that Donte needs to play around the basket and is better at PF than when he’s asked to play SF the way Westphal wants him too.
This is getting too confusing, so I’m giving it up for now.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Most of the hate is emotional
There may just be something inherently unlikeable about watching Salmons play basketball. I really don’t know. But he is definitely an upgrade at the SF position. If you include the fact that we also have Honeycutt and Thomas coming in. I really do think, depending on the future moves we have yet to make, that we have improved our team and can continue to improve our team.
I can't speak for anyone else
But my hatred of this deal is anything but emotional. It’s based on value.
And I agree with you, I think the team is better than it was yesterday. Unfortunately, it’s not as good as it could have been. Maybe that will change by the time basketball starts (if it starts).
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
I actually think he has good short term value
He also is someone who can produce for us while giving us time to find his replacement when his contract expires (im hoping Honeycutt can develop into our starting SF). We’re also still in a position to improve our team further, without hurting our long-term success
True it's not great value, but I hate it on an emotional level
In fact I’ve come to hate all of GP’s trades and FA acquisitions, not because they are horrible but because they are mediocre and do very little is anything to improve the team.
We had Miller who has continued to be a serviceable player, and shipped Salmons who was a decent SG with a reasonable contract along to do it. And, we ended up having to take back Noc and his bad contract in return. Now we take back Salmon who mostly has been a SG to upgrade the SF when we could have gotten a natural SF who could start for the money we’re paying Salmon.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
GP has gotten a free pass for too long.
As you indicate, GP’s early genius has degenerated into “mediocrity.”
I’ve personally vented enough over the past couple of days. I have been pleased to find there are others here who feel like-wise, though.
At this point, the trade is what it is. It can’t be undone. I will mourn the loss of Udrih, but will try to have a positive outlook for the season ahead.
So many people are excited by Jimmer that I will hop onto the Jimmer bandwagon and hope for his success in the NBA.
We have hit a lot of bumps in the road, as you remind, with the shipping of Salmons to the Bucks, only to have him return again.
I am rescinding my “In Petrie I Trust” card and will view all his moves with more scrutiny in the future. Sounds like a few others have burned their cards as well.
Love all your work HT.
The key to any game is to use your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
-Paul Westphal
I still trust Petrie, but it comes down to winning
We underwent a rebuild. He’s gotten us cap space, talent and youth. Now we are heading into year 3 with Reke and company and I do expect to see results.
If they come, great. If they don’t, it falls on PW or Petrie. PW would likely go first, but then for better or worse, there is nowhere for Petrie to hide.
This team however is better with Salmons than Beno. I’ll be interested in seeing the rest of Petrie’s moves this summer. We’re still staring at a fairly small piece of the picture.
Completely agree with you on expecting results.
Petrie has made these decisions and says there are more to come.
The accountability is going to fall on Petrie and to a lesser extent PW. I hope we are going to see a substantial improvement in the team this season, but if we don’t – the Natives are getting restless.
The key to any game is to use your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
-Paul Westphal
If the post is exactly how advanced stats are used to manipulate a player's worth
Then I would argue that this post is exactly how observations can be manipulated.
You argue about cherry-picking comparisons, but then you compare Beno and Salmons as players when they were both here in 2009. That’s just as bad, considering Beno improved significantly last season and was one of our most consistent players and a key member of the team.
You also argue that Salmons had his worst year with the Kings and was considered a bad contract, but Section’s re-posted story on the front page today reminds us that he was not considered a bad contract at the time. He had a reasonable contract. It was only when Milwaukee signed him to his current deal that Salmons was considered a bad contract.
I also question the notion that Salmons was forced to be the focal point of Milwaukee last season. That team had considerably more talent than when Salmons was in Sacramento. Additionally, I would argue that he accepted a role player position on that team. That should have been your argument. Maggette and Jennings were the two main options Milwaukee used last season. This was evident both watching games and using stats such as usage rate.
Call people out all you would like, but at least make sure you’re pointing to real arguments. There are ways to defend this trade, god knows I’ve been trying to talk myself into them, but you’ve missed this mark in my opinion.
In most polarizing arguments, the truth is found somewhere in the middle.
Follow me on Twitter
Author of Inside-Out Game
Salaries
Let’s all get on the same page here with the salaries:
John Salmons-
2011-12: 8.5 mil
2012-12: 8 mil
2013-14: 7.5 mil
2014-15: 7 mil (team option)
Beno Udrih-
2011-12: 7.2 mil
2012-13: 7.8 mil
So the increase in pay is $1.3 million in 2011-12 and $200,000 in 2012-13. This is probably pretty close to a push with the rookie salary difference from #7 to #10. Salmons team option shouldn’t be taken into account at this point….if he is good the 7 mil will be a steal, if his shelf life has expired we can let him go. Therefore, the real question is the 2013-14 season where he will cost us $7.5 mil. Frankly, the seems reasonable. I think that it is a little distorting to claim that we are paying $10 mil more for Salmons, when we are really paying $1.5 mil more over the next two years…
For what it is worth….
it's 1.5 Mil in addition to the 14-15 salary.
by VenomySnicket on Jun 24, 2011 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
True...
But someone will be filling the roster in 2014-15 and cashing a check…
Can I also say....
That I love a descending salary contract…Remember when Mitch Richmond got one of the first descending salary contracts? It really is a genius way for it to work. Money today is worth more than money in a year….or four down the road. Get the bulk now and it actually makes the contract more valuable. Unfortunately, as I recall, the Rock got pissed at the end of his contract with the Kings and felt that he was being underpaid. Of course, because you were ‘overpaid’ at the front end of the contract!!!
Good commentary, Ziller, but today is one to celebrate the Jimmer
PW: Jimmer is extremely fundamentally sound, a really good athlete. He’s ready to play in the NBA, there will not be a difficult learning curve.
PW: Jimmer will play significant minutes whether as starter or off the bench!!!
PW: Jimmer can play with anybody.
PW: Jimmer is fundamentally one of the best rookies I have ever been around.
Damn rightl!!! Get pumped Kings fans games are going to be rock next season!!! The Kings are going to become BIG draw home and away. Jimmer is going to tear up the NBA!!!! He’s going to torch opponents, wait and see!!!!
None of this 4th guard in the rotation B.S. bandied about around here. Jimmer was drafted to played right away. He put in his 4 years, and his transition to NBA will be silky smooth, just like his jumper!!!! And with all respect to Beno, Jimmer will make Kings fans forget about Beno real fast. And I like Beno, best wishes to Beno, but Jimmer is on a different level.
I question the ability of Paul Westphal to coach, and manage players and team dynamics, and make in-game decisions, but as a former All-Star player, I do consider him an accurate judge of talent. He is effusive over Jimmer, and this confirms my best expectations. We could have the best and most unstoppable 3 guard rotations in NBA next season. Next it is time for some front court tweeking or overhauling.
I called the pick, again, two years and running ba-da bing ba-da boom, now I will call his rookie stats:
28 minutes, 15 points per game, 48% FGs, 42% 3 pointers, 4 assists, 2 rebs…..JIMMERTIME!!!!
"The Spurs subliment their statistics for the good of the team" Kings Coach PW.
by bench_blob on Jun 24, 2011 10:46 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
what is the over-under on number of Rookie-of-the-Months for Jimmer next season?
(after you factor in the over-under on number of months played next season)
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
For over-under,
don’t you have to have the number be 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 so people can pick either 2 or 3 or 4?
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Might as well make the bet ROY
Look at this draft class, who is the ROY? Even the Top 3 picks are questionable and wonder how they can produce at a high level on their teams.
sd377 wants to ban me for unleashing the Kaepernick Supernova Gamma Ray
man I hope you're right.
Beno was never the solution as a starting guard, and I’m happy to see Marcus and Jimmer fill that gap moving forward. Hopefully those guys can stand out like Tyreke has.
I still think we need a better fitting SF though.
Where's my pie
by TheFifthMookie on Jun 24, 2011 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
What is the over/under for how many games Jimmer will lead our team in scoring?
Give a percentage instead of a number in case of a lockout. I say 20% even though he’ll only take the 4th most shots.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
We'll see
I expect him to be good, but I expect him to struggle the first half of the season.
Generally it takes underwhelming athletes some time to adjust to the speed of the NBA. Curry, Harden and Turner all had sub par starts to their rookie seasons and then improved significantly in the second half. I would expect the same from Jimmer.
New coach, new system
Another thing to keep in mind is that Salmons was here under a different coach. That was the period where the Kings were in-flux with coaches and players and didn’t really have an identity. Now that they have Tyreke and DMC, we do have more of an identity on this team. Westphal is a better coach in my opinion even if the record may not show it, but he has been retained despite the losing years so obviously he is doing something right. You all just need to settle down when it comes to jumping all over how bad of a trade it was. Often times trades can’t be analyzed until at least a couple of years after they are made. Let it play out.
by Cincy Kings Fan on Jun 24, 2011 10:48 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
A backcourt of Evans, Jimmer, Thornton.... oh wait we don't have Thornton signed yet
Yes, I know he’s a RFA so we can match any deal that he gets…. But will we?
Really trying to understand how Salmons is better than Cisco and how penny pinchers like the Maloofs can justify adding Salmon and his contract to the already overflowing SF’s we have. And, I think that I see the logic. Salmons is the starting SG if we decide not to match some rediculous offer that Thornton gets. Or, he’s the backup 2 if Jimmer ends up starting and Reke starts at SG. And, we save on the money that we would have had to pay Thornton.
Jimmer brings most of what Beno and Thornton brought. And, a guard/wing combo of Tyreke, Salmons and Garcia, would be a pretty decent Defensive backcourt.
Yes, we could have just drafted Jimmer and added a better SF for what we’re going to be paying Salmons, and then tried to move Beno. And, yes even if we had to keep Beno until his contract expired, it would have only cost $3M more than what we’re going to pay Salmons. But, now we don’t have to play for an undersized combo guard like Thornton and can start a pair of 6-6 guards until Jimmer is ready to start and we save the cost of Beno’s and Thornton’s new contract. Genius, simply genius.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Jun 24, 2011 10:49 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
...
Salmons is the starting SG if we decide not to match some rediculous offer that Thornton gets. Or, he’s the backup 2 if Jimmer ends up starting and Reke starts at SG. And, we save on the money that we would have had to pay Thornton.
I’d expect it to be:
PG Evans
SG Thornton
SF Salmons
Head Editor of JaguarsBlog
Follow me on Twitter
by CaliforniaJag on Jun 24, 2011 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
So, if some team offers Thornton 5yrs at $50M, you expect the Kings to match that?
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Do you really expect a team to offer Thornton 5yr/$50m
And if so, who?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jun 24, 2011 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is what I was going to say
So I’ll just rec it
Head Editor of JaguarsBlog
Follow me on Twitter
by CaliforniaJag on Jun 24, 2011 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions
No, and I don't know who would
but then I didn’t expect Portland to offer Matthews 5yrs/$32M.
Actually, I thought that I came up with the $50M in answer to someone else who suggested that the Kings would match any offer that Thornton got. I don’t know how it get unter Cal_Jag’s post. But, thanks for calling me on the amount, I sometimes get carried away and devaluate my point.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Geoff Petrie seems to be a GM that gets, for lack of a better term, "crushes"
When a player performs well for the Kings, even in limited minutes, Petrie seems to impulsively try to make sure they stay a part of the roster, even if it means overpaying them. Beno, Bonzi Wells, Garcia…I’m sure there are others I’m not thinking of.
Head Editor of JaguarsBlog
Follow me on Twitter
by CaliforniaJag on Jun 24, 2011 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I think if you take out the part about Salmons being no better than Garcia, this argument collapses.
And I think most NBA types would question your view of Garcia. Specifically, the question they’d ask is “Garcia? Who?”
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Actually, Garcia is well known and well-valued around the league.
From Portland to Orlando you have fans that think he’d be a great addition.
by VenomySnicket on Jun 24, 2011 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Cisco? Is that you?
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
by Holmdel on Jun 24, 2011 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've been on this board just as long as you, if not longer. Don't patronize me.
by VenomySnicket on Jun 24, 2011 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Wasn't patronizing you, actually, just making a joke. You're post sounded like a brochure.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
...It was a brochure.
Damnit, I’ve been had. Ninja Cisco slipped one under my pillow.
by VenomySnicket on Jun 24, 2011 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Fans =/= GMs
Head Editor of JaguarsBlog
Follow me on Twitter
by CaliforniaJag on Jun 24, 2011 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions
if
Thornton doesn’t resign, there’s no way in hell the Kings will be better than how they were last year. He made this team a lot better. I can see Salmons being better than any other SF we have now, but if the Kings don’t match anything for Thornton … stupidest move yet.
I don’t think that happens though, he’ll be a King.
I think Salmons is somewhat better than Donte Greene.
I also think that the Kings needed someone who was significantly better than Donte Greene, not somewhat better.
by VenomySnicket on Jun 24, 2011 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Really?
You’re crazy if you think Salmons is only somewhat better than Donte Greene. There is a reason Donte is synonymous with DNP most nights while Salmons averaged 14 ppg last year.
by Cincy Kings Fan on Jun 24, 2011 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure, Salmons can score. After winding the shot clock down to 5 seconds.
If Greene’s defense can improve to the point of Salmons, I’d rather him be on the floor.
by VenomySnicket on Jun 24, 2011 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Actually according to 82Games.com, 57% of Salmons shots last season came in the first 15 secs. of the shot clock
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Nice
A guy we all hated for chucking up shots early in the shot clock, Andres Nocioni, took 61% of his shots in the first 15 seconds of the shot clock in 09-10 with the Kings.
Head Editor of JaguarsBlog
Follow me on Twitter
by CaliforniaJag on Jun 24, 2011 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
So, if Jimmer and Tyreke are the starting backcourt,
you’d match any offer Thornton gets, so he can be our backup (3rd guard). For your sake I hope the Maloofs feel the same way.
I kind of think that they would choose to spend their cap space to beef up the front court by resigning Dalembert or going after one of the top FA centers, and possible a PF like Smith.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Without a doubt, the Kings intend on signing Thornton.
The best he will get is the full mid-level and that’s if it still exists after next week. I expect something in the neighborhood of 5yrs/$25 million but we will see.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
@James_Ham
5/32
Whovever if farther from the final contract buys the coffee.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I predict no more 5 year contracts
and guess 4/22. Which will be the new mid-level.
by Kfan in Korea on Jun 24, 2011 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I'll buy your coffee if you're right,
but I ain’t delivering it.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Ziller, have you considered chemistry?
Trust me, that trade sucked 95% percent of the pleasure out of a day that I can normally only relate to Christmas for a child. I’d waited for months for yesterday, read the entire internet, and could not have been more excited… until I heard the Salmons stuff. So I’m with you.
But, what about chemistry? This is a young team. Chemistry should probably be considered one of our biggest weaknesses. How would Beno have reacted when he was most assuredly relegated to 4th guard (maybe by the maloofs, not by the coaching staff, but still…)? I think it’s pretty safe to assume that would cause major issues, even a lockeroom rift. Would the veterans like Cisco and JT pull for their longtime teammate Beno to be playing? Or would they embrace Jimmer? I think it would be the former, and that could very easily make Jimmer an outsider. Having Beno around is a hindrance to Jimmer’s success. And I think you’re simplifying this aspect (making beno the 4th guard, buying him out, etc) in your column.
A lot of things I’ve read have talked about the idea that Jimmer’s success is highly dependent on the situation he lands in. The situation I described, with a team torn around who should be getting minutes, is not a situation advantageous to Jimmer’s future. I think he will have a hard enough time already, given the difference in his background versus the other young guys on the team. And factor in all the attention he’ll get? It’s going to be tough for other guys to not be jealous or bitter towards Jimmer. This would only be worsened by the presence of an already split lockeroom.
So, am I happy about Salmons? Hell no. His contract? Kill me. I was overcome with joy the when we got rid of him a couple years back. I cringe when he was the ball in his hands. BUT, if management feels Jimmer is our guy, then I think we should consider the extra $10mil in salary as an investment in Jimmer’s success.
That’s how I’m going to look at it. Any other way and I will rip my f-ing hair out.
side note – Westphal, in that interview, seemed really excited to have Salmons. Genuinely. That’s reassuring for me as well. Also, I remember him doing a decent job in that Chicago-Boston playoff series. Good D on Pierce.
by KeonClark on Jun 24, 2011 10:55 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Interesting
From “Bucks Blog”
The Bucks, as we’ve heard so many times, had bad chemistry last season.
What does that really mean?
The pieces didn’t fit, even though some of them were the same pieces that fit so well the previous season (see John Salmons as Exhibit A).
The endless pounding.
A hole, blacker than despair.
John Salmons is back.
by twasserm on Jun 23, 2011
The answer to chemistry issues is....
Stephan Jackson???…. Brilliant.
by KingsFanNoMatterWhat on Jun 24, 2011 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Just shows
How bad chemistry with John Salmons is if that’s the answer!
The endless pounding.
A hole, blacker than despair.
John Salmons is back.
by twasserm on Jun 23, 2011
Chemistry made easy - put away the extra beakers
If you’re that worried about the chemistry issue, simply buy Udrih out. He would still cost less against the cap than Salmons. And I’m sure that there will be no chemistry issues now that Salmons is starting at SF and Garcia/Casspi/Greene have to bite the bullet, right?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Well played, point to Section
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
...
Would you really rather pay Beno $14 million to play for someone else than pay John Salmons $25 million to play for the Kings? I don’t think I would. Though Salmons’ contract sucks, at least he contributes to the team.
Head Editor of JaguarsBlog
Follow me on Twitter
by CaliforniaJag on Jun 24, 2011 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you are making a lot of assumptions in your argument, KC
How would Beno have reacted when he was most assuredly relegated to 4th guard (maybe by the maloofs, not by the coaching staff, but still…)? I think it’s pretty safe to assume that would cause major issues, even a lockeroom rift.
First, I don’t think it is “safe to assume” Beno would cause major issues and a locker room rift. Beno has been very professional in the manner in which he has conducted himself.
Having Beno around is a hindrance to Jimmer’s success.
Here is another one of your assumptions. You don’t know whether Beno would be a hindrance to Jimmer’s success. Beno is a veteran, he has a lot he can offer to a rookie.
The situation I described, with a team torn around who should be getting minutes, is not a situation advantageous to Jimmer’s future.
Third, no one knows how the minutes are going to play out. Just because they are looking for Jimmer to play PG, who knows if he would start over Beno. I feel pretty certain Westphal will give him ample minutes if he is playing well.
The key to any game is to use your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
-Paul Westphal
Beno is a Role Player on a bad team....
The Kings have averaged 22 wins a season the last 3…. with Beno being a significat contributor to each of those teams…. if thats possible.
The only stats that matter are the ones in the standings…. and those have much more to do with the chemistry of a team than some PER rating on an individual player basis.
Salmons is equal to Beno… Beno to Salmons… both play roles and should be the 4th or 5th option on any legitimate team.
Funny how fast some lose faith in Petrie because the stats don’t add up…. If thats all that mattered we would have some math geeks running every team in the league.
by KingsFanNoMatterWhat on Jun 24, 2011 11:01 AM PDT reply actions
Many of us lost faith in Petrie a ways back
As you said, the results say it all. The Kings have averaged 22 wins a season, and Petrie has been at the helm of the ship during that process.
Oh, and he signed Beno to his current deal, IIRC.
I enjoyed the “math geek” blast though. You don’t see a place for advanced statistics in player analysis?
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
Hopefully there is more trade action to come...
Who knows?, maybe it will include Salmons
Purveyor of Bull Plop
Nailed it TZ
I would have loved to see how much better of a SF the Kings could have gotten if they had just stuck with the pick and been able to call teams saying “We got Knight, Kemba or Jimmer waiting for you here at #7….”.
Instead, GP panicked, pulled the trigger on a bad deal, and got hustled. Just when we all thought a Kenny Thomas-like contract was behind us…
Overreaction
Kenny Thomas and his contract has no correlation to John Salmons. Kenny Thomas was a waste because he rode the bench almost every night in his last year with the Kings. Salmons will be a starter or a key reserve on this team therefore that contract argument is invalid.
by Cincy Kings Fan on Jun 24, 2011 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
It's important to remember though
That everyone assumed we’d find a taker for Kenny Thomas prior to his final year, because teams LOVE to take on expiring contracts. Didn’t happen in his case.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
Fishing for Salmons
Key reserve behind who at SF?? Plus, remember that this guy was an absolute locker room nightmare when they made him a reserve in his previous Sac stint.
Who was his coach again?
Theus? Natt?
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Adelman and Muss I think
Maybe Theus too. Don’t remember how many seasons he was here, but it was a few.
Never Turn Back - Crush 40
Being a Fan: 10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain, and 100% reason to remember the name!
by raiderking21 on Jun 24, 2011 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Coaches...smoaches!
Or something… my point is that I don’t think coaches made a difference for him. They still were bad and uninspired, no matter his role. If ANY coach starts him and lets him take 20 shots a night, he’s happy. If ANY coach has him coming off the bench, he sulks. That sort of attitude (ie. I don’t car abt wins, just get me my starts and shots) is garbage.
just curious..
how was he such a nightmare? just curious. i remember him being somewhat of a quiet guy that kept to himself. but I don’t recall any huge locker room blow ups. one time he made a wrong comment to a reporter regarding playing time or amount of shots or something, but it wasn’t anything worse then most players. he didn’t attack a team mate (cousins), get a DUI (any number of kings players, coaches, owners), get an embarressing speeding ticket (reke) he didn’t sell out his team mates or coaches, or for that matter anything else really that horrible, from what I remember. he was just kind of a quiet loner type of guy, a bit religious for my taste, but so is half the league on some level. I’m just curious, what was it that he did that made him such a lockerroom cancer?
It's all relative
You’re right, there have been players who have mis-behaved more, no doubt. My standpoint is: Do we really need a player who has a history of sulking when things don’t go his way? A history of ball-hogging? I imagine Beno being a much better influence (and much more of accepting whatever role he is given) on Jimmer than the subtraction of Beno and addition of Salmons.
His starter production and his bench production were polar opposites
He was very pouty when he sat behind Artest and Martin. Fortunately, Artest and Martin vacated the starting lineup so frequently that we didn’t have to suffer Salmons’ bench “production” for extended stretches.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
The only thing that’s keeping me from slamming my head into the wall right now is this: what is it that Petrie sees in him to bring him here twice? I don’t think it’s fair to answer that with a “he’s a dumb ass”, because he’s not, the man has built some great teams. Did he talk to Salmons pre trade about excepting a new role? Is that allowed? Is there something else up his sleeve? Should I let the slamming begin?
by Crocoduck on Jun 24, 2011 11:04 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Positives and Negatives
Positives- 1.Jimmer is the real deal, and will be better than he was in college. No college player ever had to work so hard for his offense, and I cant wait to see what he can with other players drawing double teams and other teams not doubling him at 33 feet away.
2. Beno had to be cleared to make room
3. Salmons is a clear upgrade at the 3, especially on D. But he has to realize he is the 4th or 5th option on offense and accept that role. IF IF IF he accepts that role then he could be clear upgrade at SF.
Negatives 1.- This pretty much ends Omri Casspis tenure in Sac. Guarantee he is being shopped as we speak. Garcia and Salmons have no value with those contracts and Greene as well, so Casspi is out the door unless GP was looking at a clear 1-2 with Salmons and Casspi. The logjam at SF is worse than ever and Casspi wont accept the same role or worse than he had. Sucks because I think Omri is still gonna be a star in this league, and we F’ed up his situation so bad that its gonna be somewhere else.
2. Salmons could be a cancer and refuse to accept a role as 4th or 5th option and hurt the offense, then what?? He cant be traded or released, so he would kill the team from within.
by OKO on Jun 24, 2011 11:08 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm going to do something uncharacteristic and post and overreacting rant but with a different opinion than most here so be warned
I can’t believe the reaction to this trade. I, like most of us here, remember watching every game of that 17 win season. I remember seeing Salmons pound the ball and me yelling at the TV for him to give up the ball. I hated watching his game as much as anyone. And yet I DO NOT HATE THIS TRADE.
I understand where some of you are coming from but it still doesn’t convince me. Yes, maybe Beno was the better player of the two but Salmons is GOOD, not HORRIBLE. Obviously, he is not worth his contract and he probably never will be but this is not a crippling contract. It will NOT prevent us from making more signings or trades, nor will it prevent us from extending our young stars. Another thing, Salmons is what we are looking for at SF: defender, decent 3 Pt shot, ballhandler, good passer when he decides to give it up, and a creator off the dribble. Which of our SF can do that consistently now?!
This was not our best option, but the idea that this made us worse, IMHO, is BS. Sure Salmons USED to be blackhole; doesn’t mean he still is one or that he can’t change. Most of us hoped for TP and RJ but I honestly believe that that was NOT going to happen. FA? Tayshaun Prince? Shane Battier? Andrei Kirilenko? None of those are happening and they wouldn’t have made us significantly better than now especially if they can’t stay healthy (btw I really like AK and Battier). Salmons might not have been the best option but he was by no means the worst. It’s not like we traded Beno for Rodney Carney or something!
All in all we addressed a need and like it or not Salmons is here now. My advice, quit looking back on past experience, move on from the 17-win season, and accept the newest (or returning) members of the team. Now note that I do not like this trade either, but I don’t think this has crippled, destroyed, or even set back the team. Would I have liked to see more improvement? Of course but let’s be patient (I know it’s hard to do after so long) and see how this plays out. I will not join your anti-Salmons rants until I see for myself that Salmons has indeed not changed and cripples the team on the court and in the locker room! So everyone chill and calm down!
Okay I’m done. Excuse this rant and I apologize if anyone feels I attacked a certain group which was not my intention. Rant over…
Never Turn Back - Crush 40
Being a Fan: 10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain, and 100% reason to remember the name!
by raiderking21 on Jun 24, 2011 11:14 AM PDT via mobile reply actions 2 recs
Rant away, my friend
I think we’ll all move on, but you’ve got to expect a bit of backlash within the first 24 hours of a deal like this.
And it’s not just us locals – this deal has been pretty universally panned across the country.
All I’ll add about Salmons – this is his third change of teams in the last three seasons. The reputation he has with some of us is the reputation he has now, three teams later. He’s a good player in many ways, but expecting him to change into a “team player” may leave you disappointed.
I hope you’re right though, and look forward to seeing how Westphal puts this all together.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
I was just writing and overreactive post to counter some I have seen
I don’t feel as emotional about this as it seems. But yes I do know he has that reputation of sulking on every team he’s been on. I also think it will be hard for him to change. All I am saying is to give this one more chance. Besides I never listen to what national people say about this kind of stuff. No matter what the Kings will not get praised for their good and will be universally panned for every error so I choose not to pay attention. I see what’s on the court (whenever that may be) so I’ll let that, and whatever other moves might happen convince me.
Just making it clear that I really do respect and agree with some of the opinions on this board
Never Turn Back - Crush 40
Being a Fan: 10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain, and 100% reason to remember the name!
by raiderking21 on Jun 24, 2011 11:28 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Always good to have you around raiderking21
I don’t mind the optimism at all. And I’ll be more onboard with this in a few days, I’m sure.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
Good to be around haha
Guess I’m not used to such an overwhelming negative response on this board. My optimism comes from the fact that I truly believe this is an upgrade as minimal as it seems. It surprised me, I’m not usually the optimist in the group.
Never Turn Back - Crush 40
Being a Fan: 10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain, and 100% reason to remember the name!
by raiderking21 on Jun 24, 2011 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions
I know, it's a weird place to be
I do think the deal is an upgrade, but I don’t really care for it.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
"quit looking back on past experience"
This part is hard for me to accept, but more power to you for being able to do so. None of us want to see anyone on the team fail, or for the team to be worse. I think we just feel we could have been better by simply adding through the draft or FA.
The endless pounding.
A hole, blacker than despair.
John Salmons is back.
by twasserm on Jun 23, 2011
Agreed
He has good short-term value. Honeycutt has time to develop (I’ve almost completely lost faith in Greene and Casspi). How many better options were there??? Granger probably wasn’t available, and Salmons has better value than Iggy IMO (as far as crippling contracts).
casspi played his 2nd nba season last aeason pretty sure...
If we trade casspi he will flourish and make you look dumb for wanting it.
by Ultrakingsfan on Jun 24, 2011 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
He could flourish on another team
But not so sure about this team. I never said I wanted him trades; he could surprise me this year. But if you paid attention to what PW said, having Casspi on the floor takes away Reke’s size advantage because teams can hide their smaller PGs on Casspi. Casspi has no post up game and can’t take advantage of this. He also has small hands, which I think hinders his ability to drive strong to the basket.
Casspi will be traded and I hope he becomes a star
At some point people will realize Westphal is bringing this team down, not taking them anywhere near the playoffs…
And now the trade is Westphal's fault
And in less than 24 hours. Well done!
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jun 24, 2011 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I really hope this isn't how we judge all the moves going forward.
but Salmons is GOOD, not HORRIBLE. Obviously, he is not worth his contract and he probably never will be but this is not a crippling contract.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Not sure I follow much
Then again I have been known to have mental lapses. So judge how?
Never Turn Back - Crush 40
Being a Fan: 10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain, and 100% reason to remember the name!
by raiderking21 on Jun 24, 2011 11:39 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
That it is not horrible and does not cripple us that much. If that is the standard by which we rate deals we are in trouble...
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Never said it was a good deal
It’s also not a horrible deal IMO. I just think the reaction here makes it seem like John Salmons has Joe Johnson’s contract which is not the case. I don’t think this was the best deal, nor do I think this makes us a playoff team. My argument was that the trade was not as bad as some make it out to be including the contract.
Never Turn Back - Crush 40
Being a Fan: 10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain, and 100% reason to remember the name!
by raiderking21 on Jun 24, 2011 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
My advice, quit looking back on past experience
Unfortunately, we cannot just dismiss this because we don’t know how he’ll fit in with this team … but we know how he played last time he was here. We cannot just sit there and say, “don’t even think about it!! It never happened!!”
I will admit, this is a completely different team than the last one he was here with. There was no Reke, no Cousins, no Thornton. He could very well come in, be a good 4th option on offense, play great D, and make the team a lot better.
He could also come in, do the same dribble dribble dribble he did last time he was here, making the offense stagnant. We don’t know. If Westphal and Petrie are excited to have him, so be it. If they think he’ll help us win games, that’s fine.
Also, another argument we cannot ignore is the extra year they picked up. If he keeps his production and body up all 3 years, it won’t be an issue. If he falls off ….. I remember everyone’s opinion about Kenny Thomas’ deal … hell, even people now think Garcia and Beno have bad contracts … imagine if he sucks that 3rd year.
Well then let's just wait for that third year to come then shall we?
I understand this is a risk and you are right, you cannot dismiss the past completely. But I’m of the opinion that you can’t predict the exact future using the past. Like you said, things are different. Some believe that they are sure this will turn out bad. I’d rather wait and see.
Never Turn Back - Crush 40
Being a Fan: 10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain, and 100% reason to remember the name!
by raiderking21 on Jun 24, 2011 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
I really hope that
all the optimists are right. I really hope that he comes in, plays great D, doesn’t ball hog and helps us win more games. The more I think about it, the more comfy I am that it will happen …. but I also can see why people can/will be pessimistic. and I don’t blame them either.
Amen my friend
I couldn’t have stated it any better. Thank you!
by Cincy Kings Fan on Jun 24, 2011 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Amen my friend
I couldn’t have stated it any better
by Cincy Kings Fan on Jun 24, 2011 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Amen my friend
I couldn’t have stated it any better!
by Cincy Kings Fan on Jun 24, 2011 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
salmons was arguably the best player we had when he was here in sac
him joining a team where he focuses more on defense than scoring? i’m all for it. the bucks and the bulls didn’t have enough options for him to focus on certain aspects of his game. reke, thornton, jimmer & cousins are the go-to players to score. we’re better than we were before draft day. i’m sure our defense has improved dramatically with the length that salmons can bring.
salmons was arguably the best player we had when he was here in sac
lol. Being the best player on a 17 win team isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement.
Remember how he beat Dallas? They're the world champs!
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I find the following paragraph a bit misleading:
Beno is better than Salmons. Salmons’ best season resulted in 7.1 Win Shares. Beno had 7.2 on a 24-win team last season. Salmons has one season above 0.1 Win Shares per 48 minutes. Beno has four. Salmons’ career PER is 13.1. Beno’s is 14.1. And Beno is cheaper, younger and plays a more important/less replaceable position.
Looking further at the numbers:
1. Salmons’ best Win Share season was 7.1, Beno’s 7.2.
2. 2 of Beno’s 4 good WS/48 seasons referenced above came with less than 15 min/game.
3. PER largely ignores defensive contributions. PER likely overrates Beno and underrates Salmons.
Just looking at the advanced stats, I think the numbers have to be bent a bit to draw the conclusion that Beno is the clear-cut better player.
by tecolote5 on Jun 24, 2011 11:41 AM PDT reply actions 4 recs
You could look at career defensive ratings
Salmons is at 108, Beno’s at 111. So definite advantage for Salmons, but not as massive as you would think.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
The tricky thing with career defensive ratings is you completely lose the team defensive ratings stats
which is somewhat important for those
by wallywagon11 on Jun 24, 2011 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with this
I tend to look at their defensive rating against their team’s overall defensive rating for the season I’m looking at. A little more work on the career side though…
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
Though to be fair, they both were on similar teams
Bad defensive Kings teams.
Good defensive teams – Salmons (Bulls, Bucks), Beno (Spurs)
So as a comparison, it probably isn’t off by much.
it's not the most accurate thing in the world but
When looking at full career ratings like this I actually like to look at the offensive/defensive ratings comparison more than anything else (basically really don’t like doing the match of splitting up the minutes for the specific ratings and what not)
by wallywagon11 on Jun 24, 2011 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
For instance
Salmons 106/108
Beno 108/111
Basically two “eh” players
by wallywagon11 on Jun 24, 2011 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Good analysis.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I'll reserve my judgement until the SUMMER IS OVER!
When GP is done dealing, we might not even have Salmons anymore – let alone Jimmer.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 11:47 AM PDT reply actions
I will try to defend this trade. (Sorry for the length)
I don’t dislike this trade as much as others do. Ziller states that he’d rather we kept Beno and the Casspi/Greene rotation. I don’t agree with this at all. We’ve seen what Beno and these guys can do and it’s not good enough. Yes Beno was probably our most consistent offensive player last year but he can’t guard anybody. Jimmer’s defense will probably be about the same or even worse. We will also bring in another veteran guard (I strongly hope) it sounds like from GP’s interview. Salmons is better than Greene/Casspi, this we can all agree on. Do I still like Greene/Casspi? Sure I do, but we’ve now seen them for long enough to know that they’re not the answer at SF and rolling them out again this year hoping they improve is not the way to go. Now have they been handled wrong by Westpaul? Yes I’d say so but guess what for better or worse Westpaul is coach again so I don’t see anything different changing. Now if we had another coach I would probably feel more optimistic but we don’t. Is Salmons $10million better than Udrih? No offense at Ziller for this, but he makes it sound like it’s $10million more per year. Salmons’ has 3 yeasr left and Udrih has 2 so it’s $10million more spread out. Don’t get it twisted and think I love Salmons. I don’t. But is he an upgrade at SF? Yes. He was better in Sacramento than he was in Milwaukee and hopefully he reverts back to form. This is a different team from the one he was on and maybe he brings other things such as Leadership in the locker room that we don’t know about and may be very important. Even if he is just mediocre I’d still take him over Greene/Casspi. As for his contract I think he’ll be solid for the first 2 years and we’ll see about the 3rd.
I think the perception of this trade is also tarnished by how the draft went. Understandably people are upset (myself included) that we could’ve had Knight had we stayed at 7. But absolutely NOBODY saw Knight slipping that far. If you saw GP’s interview you can sense that he was a little surprised as well and maybe a little upset with himself. But I think GP and the staff grouped a couple of the guards in the draft together and felt that they could trade down and take whichever of those guys fell to them. Also the Tony Parker trade rumors made this trade look like a super letdown. Guys San Antonio was not going to trade Parker/Jefferson for the 7th and Casspi/whatever. I just don’t see San Antonio doing such a stupid trade. This trade would’ve made no sense considering how well they played last year. Just another media rumor imo. Another letdown was that we’ve had Salmons before. Trading for a player that we’ve had before is rare and just isn’t exciting. If it was for any other player I think we’d have a more open mind about it.
In conclusion this trade wasn’t as bad as some are making it out to be. We’ve already seen what this team can do with Beno and Casspi/Greene. Let’s see what else GP has up his sleeves (We better resign Dalembert and Thornton) and let’s see how they do together this season before we turn in a final judgment.
by Makdeeznut on Jun 24, 2011 11:54 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
I see your point of view
But one thing you noted (and Kreidler defended Petrie on this as well this morning) that I wholeheartedly disagree with:
But absolutely NOBODY saw Knight slipping that far.
I distinctly remember some talk of Knight slipping as far as 10 yesterday. Beyond the #1 and #2 spots, there was no real accepted order. When Valuncianas and Vesely slipped into the top 5 (as some predicted they might), it changed the dynamic of the first round.
I just don’t accept this as a defense at all. Petrie is usually Mr. Patience, but he couldn’t wait to agree to this deal until he saw how the draft was lining up?
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
There may have been some that saw him slipping
But by far the majority did not see him slipping. And the Sacramento staff must not have seen him slipping as well. I think if we could’ve waited to see who fell to 7 and then decided if we wanted to trade we would’ve done that. But I think the deal had to be agreed to at that time. I certainly hope so anyways or this trade was far worse than anybody thought.
Well, if he was forced into a three way deal where he got the short end of the stick
That’s a problem. Hard to fathom that there couldn’t have been a better deal for a SF down the road, even a separate deal just for Salmons. And if Salmons got dealt in the interim, you go after someone else.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
Generally agree and Rec'd, but
1 – Casspi or Greene still could be the answer. But glad we do have a vet there now. A much better player. Our team is ready to win 35+ games next year. Time for Casspi and Greene to compete for minutes.
2 – I disagree with the justification about how “nobody saw Knight slipping that far.” As a GM, that’s your job. Be prepared. With that said, I do believe Petrie realized this. And genuinely may have wanted Jimmer more. Knight’s far from a sure thing. His college numbers were sub-par. In any statistical analysis (Hollinger, Dalt, etc.) he doesn’t rate very highly. And unlike Jimmer, while Knight should be a good pro, it will probably take him 3-4 years to develop. Jimmer is ready to contribute this year.
Recapping -
The defense of the trade is that the ends justifies the means. We’ll see.
If Salmons morphs into Battier/Bowen/Posey, it is a great trade and I will apologize for removing GP’s penis from my mouth long enough to doubt him. But if we traded for the John Salmons that has performed for the last several years in the NBA, there are going to be a crap load of unhappy Kings fans as the season (and shot clock) unwinds.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jun 24, 2011 11:58 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Well put
I think it’s a pretty big leap of faith to expect Salmons to somehow do a complete 180 and become a different player/personality than he has been for the last several years. And hey, if the dude comes in and plays hard and is a good teammate I’ll gladly eat my words. Prove me wrong John!
crossing fingers
Look everyone, I am just as pissed about the trade. But I have to trust GP. This is not the first time I’ve disagreed with a move that turned out fine. He obviously sees something in Salmon unless this was done just to piss off the Maloofs for making them take Jimmer. I’m going to look at it like this. We loaded up on our weakest position next to Center, depending on Bur, and made Sf the most competitive position on the court. Salmon is a great locker guy who defends pretty well and can shoot 3’s, well kinda… 1 thing for sure, he will make guards and SF’s work harder in practice. I know, not worth 35million. But between Salmon and Honeycutt, we really upgraded defense and added scoring. And with Jimmer, more scoring. So I talked myself off the cliff and started to see the big picture. And believe me we are not going keep 5 sf’s…another trade is coming but don’t expect a blockbuster. We have to resign the young guys as time goes on and with the new CB and the arena, we will not be spending too much on players. And Jimmer will sale tickets, this was a P.R. move to help put people in seats and sale merchandise, remember everyone, we need an arena. Also you are going to fall in love with Honeycutt, soon to be a crowd favorite and our starting sf. Think a more athletic Doug Christy.
The Slamons Trade is not as bad as you think
I am not a big fan of Salmons myself, however this deal was not as bad as it is being made out to be. Everyone is jumping onto two main points about how this trade is bad. The (1) is that Salmon’s is a black hole on offense, and (2) that the contract is worse than Beno’s. GP was looking for a guard in this draft and SF in free agency or via trade. Both were satisfied. I looked at Beno’s and Salmon’s contracts over the next 4 years and subtracted the savings we made by selecting 10th over the 7th pick and this is how it looks:
11-12 is an additional $1,108,200
12-13 is an additional $209,000
13-14 is an additional $7,047,000 (which is essentially less than what Beno made the previous season)
14-15 is $329,625 to buy out Salmons contract assuming we would pick up the 4th year rookie option no matter what.
So this deal essentially just added an additional year to Beno’s contract as far as salary goes. Salmon’s is automatically the best SF we have now, and it gives time for Greene and Honeycutt to develop more. Salmon could probably easily be dealt after the 12-13 season as he would only have one year at $7,583,000. If Westphal can get Salmon to buy into his role of being a defender and being the 4th option in the starting line-up then this deal is a success. We have not compromised our salary cap in the near or long term. We can still make plenty of moves to change this as well. What do you all think?
by pauleyusmc on Jun 24, 2011 12:04 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I am more happy with Jimmer + Salmons - Beno than I would be with Knight.
Anybody else?
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 12:05 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
No
By the way, the equation would be Jimmer + Salmons versus Knight + Beno. Or hell, it could be Jimmer + Salmons versus Jimmer + Beno.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
?
Either way you’d be paying Beno to not play as you would have a crowded back court. Isn’t Salmons the best SF we have now? Doesn’t it buy us time for Honeycutt and/or Greene to develop into the best SF? (Provided we do not get a better SF in free agency)
Beno's still an asset
I’d assume he’d be moved in a separate deal.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
Agreed
I do agree Beno would have been a better asset to move in a seperate deal. I think this deals success largely depends on Westphal’s ability to make Salmon’s understand his role in this system. If Westphal can do that, I think Salmon can be an asset…
Yeah I like Beno way more than Salmons
But I’m assuming they wanted Salmons and intend to use him. Their mention of Salmons having a post game makes sense to me. I’m sure that they explored other trades but figured that this was the best they could do, or at least the best fit for what they were looking for. They must also assume that Jimmer can play significant minutes right away.
After Salmons plays 1/2 a season as our starting SF, he'll be more of an asset than Beno who wouldn't even be able to get minutes behind our rookie.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Same.
Salmons is the better player.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions
This is my sneaky way of hoping you'll add some data to back up your POV
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
oh, this is hilarious, otis, and let me help you out by responding to my post for you...
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Here are some stats: based on a scale of 1 - 5
Beno defense: 1 John defense: 4
Beno offense : 3 John offense: 2 (for the sake of argument. Although I believe they’re equal)
1 + 3 < 4 + 2
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Are you subjectively pulling these numbers out of thin air?
Or do you have some stats to base this upon?
The key to any game is to use your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
-Paul Westphal
Those are 100% caseycheesecake stats.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's what I thought.
The key to any game is to use your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
-Paul Westphal
Stat line may be better
but his efficiency and usage is not better than Beno, Salmons numbers were cause of alot of touches that he won’t now have… Alas, its apples and oranges though
Yes, we'd be paying Beno not to play until he can be moved
And, now we’ll be paying Casspi, Greene, and Honeycutt not to play until one or more of them are moved. Because it’s certainly not going to be easy to move Salmons and Cisco with the contracts that they have if a better SF becomes available.
This is my reason for not liking the trade. We had two hard to move players in Cisco and Beno because of their contracts and we moved one by taking on another immoveable player with an even worse contract. It’s the same thing as when we moved Miller with 2 years left on his contract by picking up Noc and his contract.
If the Maloof weren’t so straped for money, we could have probably bought out Beno’s contract for the extra 2 years of Salmon’s contract.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
yes, we would have been better off using the Salmons money by buying out Beno and having no Salmons to
show for it.
Oh, wait, but that means we wouldn’t have a starting 3.
Never mind.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Salmons + Slamson = ??
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Hard to tell
I did think Knight was overrated. Salmons is an upgrade but my emotional side doesn’t like him. I’ll feel better as soon as I see that first Jimmer 3 go down
I am more happy with it.
I’ve heard underwhelming opinions of Knight (Reynolds, Tolbert etc) that could be spin, we’ll see. And I love what Beno did for the Kings last year, but let’s face it,he struggles against good defenses and good defenders, especially in crunchtime.
i can imagine the way petrie is seeing things
two players that can slash/cut to the basket and finish. one that can shoot at a decent clip, one that SHOULD improve his shooting efficiency. we’ll always have a shooter in jimmer or marcus on the floor. demarcus at the high or low post watching for cutters. team got a lot better defensively… and we’re not done yet, so let’s see how things work out through FA
Age
Salmons is 31 at some stage his performance will start falling off, then the Kings are stuck paying him to under perform.
Its not like there are other SFs available, I’m sure other teams wanting to cut salary would have better SFs than Salmons.
Maybe the Kings could have offered Casspi and cap space to the Pacers for a bad contract for the rights to Leonard, he could be someone the Kings could have used and he’d be cheaper.
But with Jimmer
the Kings would have been paying Beno to under perform as there would be four guards for two spots….
yes, I think the weakness in the "boo-hoo" crowd's argument is that Beno's PER for playing four minutes a game
is not real value.
If Beno could defend SFs, then yes, I’d be hating this trade.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Woof Part Deux.
"You take one step out that door and somebody’s gonna get fucked real bad" ... Elfboy
The over-dramatization here is killing me...
What? Have have the arena talks and losing our team made us drama queen addicts? Seriously people, you all need to ligthen up on this trade? Is a slam dunk trade? NO. It’s really not? In fact, I don’t like it for contractual reasons. But as far as basketball reasoning? It’s actually fairly sound logic, ESPECIALLY when you factor in who our owners are…the Maloofs…who just sold their baby the Palms to stay afloat financially.
All the Kings did was trade Beno for Salmons. That’s IT. Trading ‘down’ saved them some chump change that I wouldn’t mind having in about $600,000.
But the trade boils down to Salmons for Beno.
Factoring in the savings of Jimmer at 10 vs. 7 it’s about a 1.5 million dollar increase on our liability side of the ledger. That’s a pittance. But now what happened by default of the deal is the 3 spot is solidified(yes I know there are haters out there concerning the fish man), but he’s been a productive vet for a few years now PARTICULARLY on the defensive side of the ball. He’s also capable of getting his offense going on any giving night. Salmons isn’t a star, but he’s CONSISTENCY at the SF.
The biggest gripe I saw here regarding Jimmer(besides defense) was not enough minutes between Tyreke, Thornton and Beno. Well, no Beno’s gone, minutes crunch gone. We’re now paying a 1.5 million premium on a STARTING SF, rather than back-up PG in Beno. That’s a win.
The other complaint I saw Jimmer on was DEFENSE. Well, John Salmons isn’t great at any one particular thing, but he’s rather good or decent at just about everything. If there was one thing you could say he excels out, I’d say it was defense. He’ll be guarding the other teams BEST perimeter offensive threat on a nightly basis. Tyreke will match up with #2 and with Jimmer’s strength, he’ll get the lightest assignment out on the perimeter even if it’s, KEY WORD HERE, sometimes a SF. I think he can handle certain match-ups against certain teams there. I see the three players being interchangeable parts defensively on the perimeter, in that, it won’s be directly the 1 guarding the 1, the 2 the 2, etc. It’ll be John on their #1 option, Tyreke on their #2 option, and Jimmer on their #3 option offensively out on the perimeter.
This deal is about minimizing weaknesses and creating more strengths and versatility about the roster.
Remember what Petrie said at the end of the season? The main areas he wanted to address were another ball-handler/defender/shooter on the perimeter. John can be summed up much of that player.
Do I like the trade overall? No Not really. But I see why it was made. There’s currently no ‘holes’ in our roster now, with a total increase in spending at 1.5 million, leaving FA spending virtually untouched.
That’s why the deal was made. It’s not something to be acting this dramatic over. It’s a tons better than the Martin deal, but worse than deals like Artest etc.
by Smills9133 on Jun 24, 2011 2:18 PM PDT reply actions 9 recs
+1
Enough drama. Save it until the season starts after we’ve made some real changes.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 24, 2011 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
We have one hole - Veteran PG
But I think that will be easy to fill in free agency.
Nice post though. Rec’d
...
All the Kings did was trade Beno for Salmons. That’s IT. Trading ‘down’ saved them some chump change that I wouldn’t mind having in about $600,000.
Disagreed.
Trading down was a bad move for two reasons:
1. It was a poor use of resources. Moving down for the sake of moving down is beyond idiotic, mostly because of reason 2:
2. What if someone hopped them for Jimmer? What if Utah traded up with Detroit? Petrie opened himself up to his guy getting stolen from him by moving down.
The ends do not justify the means. Though they still got the guy they wanted, it doesn’t make it a good move; including the draft pick swap was still stupid.
Head Editor of JaguarsBlog
Follow me on Twitter
by CaliforniaJag on Jun 24, 2011 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions
This assumes they really were targeting Jimmer
If they had Jimmer, Walker and Knight all evenly rated on their draft board, than it’s a non-issue.
And knowing Petrie’s penchant for reaching for players he likes, I don’t see him risking losing Jimmer if he really was obsesses with him.
My guess is he likes what Jimmer brings to the team, but would have been fine if he was off the board.
...
This assumes they really were targeting Jimmer
For sure. Still stupid to trade down before you know who’s going to be on the board. Hell, what if something really weird happened and Derrick Williams was still on the board (obviously an almost zero chance, but still)? Making a trade before your pick comes up seems incredibly dumb.
Head Editor of JaguarsBlog
Follow me on Twitter
by CaliforniaJag on Jun 24, 2011 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
For the record, we know when the trade was agreed on
but not when it was official.
There may have been a contingency on who was available. And not just for the Kings. If Bobcats were actually targeting Biyombo, deal might have been blown up or modified it Toronto took him.
All just speculation at this point.
This is true
Good point
Head Editor of JaguarsBlog
Follow me on Twitter
by CaliforniaJag on Jun 24, 2011 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions
The trade boils down to Salmons for Beno. Yes, that is correct.
And, the two negatives that are being argued here are 1)which player will be easier to move based on their performance, position and contract. And 2), is John Salmons the best SF we could expect to pick up for $25M over 3 years.
Yes, no one can be sure, but some like myself feel we could have moved Beno or bought him out, and then gone after a better SF for what we will be paying Salmons. We simply don’t believe that the only way go get out of Beno’s contract was to take on a worse contract for a guy that only played SF 8% of the minutes last season and may or may not be better than what we already have.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
...
If the Kings bought out Beno and signed a SF instead, they’d have to be able to pay that player $11 million over three years to be equivalent to the Salmons contract. Buying out Beno and signing a SF means they’d still have to pay Beno; part of the appeal of the Salmons deal was likely that the Kings wouldn’t have to pay Beno anymore (not that that excuses the trade). Buying out Beno would have been an even worse solution than the Salmons trade.
Head Editor of JaguarsBlog
Follow me on Twitter
by CaliforniaJag on Jun 24, 2011 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions
All true, but I'd rather have a SF worth $30M even if it cost me $40M then pay
Salmons $30M when he’s not worth $20M. Spend the money for someone that much better rather then pay less money for someone who’s just so-so.
And, your overlooking point #1, which is maybe we could have moved Beno and certainly after next season he’s going to be easier to move as an expiring than Salmons will be with $17M left on his contract.
I can’t explain this any clearer than this, I want someone better than a career SG starting at the SF even if I have to overpay by sitting Beno on the bench for the next 2 years.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
By buyout do you mean amnesty clause?
Because if that is what you are saying, that would not have helped the Kings. The amnesty clause can be used by anyone but it doesn’t give you cap space, it only alleviates luxury cap liability. If you just mean buyout, then his contract would still count against the cap. There would be not advantage to buying out Beno.
The world is not your Trade Machine.
-Ziller
@James_Ham
by jjham15 on Jun 24, 2011 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, I'm saying if Beno couldn't be traded in a separate trade over the next year
you buy out his contract and let him resign somewhere else.
Yes, I know we’d be paying Beno to sit and then to leave. But, only in the case where we couldn’t move hime. Worst case, we spent the type of money that we going to pay Salmons to get a much better Starting SF, and average the cost of Beno’s buyout over the length of the contract. Hell, it’s not like we haven’t paid guys to sit on the bench before. If we have to eat all of Beno’s contract over the life of a 4 yr contract of a very good starting SF it’s going to cost us $4M per year more. I’d rather pay a very good starting SF then save the $4M per and have Salmons.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
two things
(1) Salmons is much better than you suggest
(2) the “worst case” is actually that Beno sits, we buy him out, and we DON’T get a “much better Starting SF”
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
But Tz,
you forgot to factor in the $500,000 we save by moving from 7th to 10th pick. That extra 500k makes it all worth it
huh? wha?
that was meant as snark
but i just realized its 500k a year over 4 years so its 2 million less in salary, so we’re taking on 8 million in salary instead of ten…still not worth it but if Jimmer was the pick at seven a straight swap for the 10th pick wouldve been a decent idea.
huh? wha?
Post Trade Yesterday--I got drunk, I got loud, I fell down, I feel a little better now
Jimmer wasn’t my guy. When I saw that Knight was available at 7 and we had squandered a shot at him to lock in Freddette and add Salmons, I went bat-shit crazy. Totally agreed (still do) with Ziller that the opportunity cost of forgoing a better long term lottery pick for an unreasonably hyped marketing vehicle and a middling retread was way too high. Hornitos shots with my neighbor ensued, pissed off my wife—not my most glorious 5-7 hours on this planet.
But when I woke up to a new day this morning, I had an epiphany: I’m the dumbass who wanted Favors, Turner or Wes Johnson over Cousins last year; the same dufus who dog-cussed Petrie for picking Peja over John Wallace, the same exact moron that thought Tom Hammonds would become the Second Coming of Karl Malone back in the day. In short, I always seem to know a lot less than I think I know. Maybe for once the best approach is to reserve judgment until at least half way through the regular season (whenever that is) and, until then, cautiously defer to those who get paid to make these decisions. For now, I should only comment on those aspects of the draft that I can speak to with reasonable certainty, which is the following:
Better Outside Shooting—Jimmer and, to a lesser extent, Salmons will keep defenses honest through their abilities to shoot the outside J. This should help unclog the lane for Reke, Marcus and the 3’s. We should see a lot less zone defenses choking off Reke’s ability to drive. Better shooting should also create more opportunities to dish inside to the bigs.
Big Shot Capability—As the offensive focal point for BYU, Jimmer has shown an aptitude for the big shot. Despite the boyish smile, I think this guy could be a cold blooded killer with the game on the line; and that is not something we’ve seen since Christie and Co.
Revenue Enhancement—Can’t believe I’m saying this, but if Jimmer does nothing more than boost ticket/merchandise sales which helps ensure that the Kings stay in Sacramento, than he will still go down as one of the greatest picks in franchise history.
Defense—Salmons should be a defensive upgrade on the wing; and he could definitely provide a sense of leadership and professionalism to a core group in strong need of such intangibles. Conversely, Jimmer is a well documented liability on defense—at least as bad as Beno at this stage. However, he is more athletic than I gave him credit for and stressed a desire to improve during many of his pre-draft interviews. I can hope that he develops into a serviceable defender over time.
Addition by Addition—Jimmer and, yes, even Salmons improves the King’s overall talent base, which could provide for enticing trade opportunities. Let’s face it, you’re not going to get a lot of call backs when all you can offer outside your core is Pooh Jeter and a couple of future second round picks. Now, we have an over-supply of serviceable if not all-star 3’s who might serve as trade bait to get a pure point guard for the rotation or some other need. Maybe GP’s sole use of Salmons is as some kind of trade leverage for a longer term strategy to rebuild the team—I’ve got to believe this factored into his decision.
More turnover’s—With Beno departed, we’re dependent upon an assortment of young, combo guards who are not stellar ball handlers. They are also green in terms of managing a pro offense. Turnovers will be early and often, especially in the first half of the season.
Ball Dominance—Reke, Marcus, Salmons, Jimmer: each one will demand a lot of touches. This could stall offensive efficiency by denying DMC and Shock higher percentage opportunities inside. PW will earn his money by effectively managing the rotation this next year.
Do the pros outweigh the cons? Shit, I don’t know. Not sure anyone does at this point. I sure hope they do. As a fan, hope and optimism are all I can muster at this point. I hope Jimmer exceeds the hype. I hope GP sees something more to Salmons that we all missed—although I’m still scratching my head on that one alongside Ziller. And if one or both turn into a long term mistake—if GP’s call yesterday turns into having had Kahn like qualities, we’ll proceed as we always do—die-hard Kings fans with our heads held high.
Someone mentioned that we’re a laughing stock on ESPN Radio and Golden State of Mind, etc. I say screw em all. They know less than we know at this stage because they ain’t Kings Fans and Salmons and Jimmer aren’t their guys. Sixteen hours ago, Freddette wasn’t my guy either. But today he’s wearing purple, which means I’m the Sergeant of Arms of the Jimmer Fan Club. Today I got a fever, and the only cure is more Freakin Jimmer. Hell, I might even search on Ebay for an 08’ John Salmons bobblehead this evening. Because that’s what Kings Fans do; and hope always springs eternal in Sacramento this time of year.
Can’t wait for the season…..Time for another drink.
Sincerely,
The Chicken
ps
f**k kobe
"...and if you don't like that, then you don't like self-serving spin and shameless Maloof ass-kissing!"
by ThunderChicken on Jun 24, 2011 2:27 PM PDT reply actions 7 recs
This is what I like about your commentary, TZ.
We can deal with ridicule. A team actively getting worse on draft day? Tougher to swallow.
You tell it as it is. You don’t sugar coat it. You don’t worry that you might not get an interview with someone in the Kings’ front office.
In a game – Every possession counts. Every single one.The league as a whole is also finite. Every decision, every trade counts. If a team comes out of all its trades with the long end of the stick, over time their stick gets longer. But, if a team consistently comes out of trades with the short end of the stick, sooner or later they are going to end up holding a stub. Yesterday, Kings came out with the short end of the stick.
The key to any game is to use your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
-Paul Westphal
that's my point
this trade made my stick get longer
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
You gotta get with the program. That's not the word we use anymore.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
Isn't it?
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
do I?
(I’ll learn how to Jimmer later, for now, I’m learning how to Otis)
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Webber vs Richmond
For the sake of discussion, lets take ourselves back to May 14, 1998. When analyzing “True Value” how did we or would we view CWebb’s value compared to Mitch Richmond’s value after his arrival in Sacramento at all. Though our opinions of Salmons is justified due to his time as a King before, Webber clearly had some issues. In fact he didnt want to honor the trade and come to Sacramento. Webber’s potential was high but Mitch was a proven All Star. I understand that Salmons is not Webber and Beno is not Richmond. But how does one truly define “Value”. To me it shows up in the Win Column and time will tell. The end result will start with the coach. Adelman made it happen on the court and Westphal needs to do the same.
Dont confuse activity with achievement.
by ridnour8 on Jun 24, 2011 3:59 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Please God
Cant we just kill salmons and start Honeycutt now?
Honeycutt is the last person i expected us to end up with but he i believe he will be great and is probably already better than Omri and Donte…. now goddamn Salmons is in the way
Lets simplify things and put it all on the table...
PROS (and rebuttals):
Saved 500k per year dropping back. (no rebuttal)
Opened up minutes for our lottery pick. (no rebuttal unless you dont like letting rookies play)
Added a SF who can shoot and defend (But we already had enough mediocre wings)
CONS (and Rebuttals):
Lost a veteran PG (Yes but he would have had no minutes left in this new backcourt)
Took on an extra 7.5 mil contract in 2013-14 (No rebuttal except for that right now the current average salary is about 5mil so some of that money would be spent regardless and you still are under cap currently more than any team)
To me it just seems they were willing to pay a little extra to have a SF on the floor than a PG on the bench. It seems as simple as that. For the record I also dont think this is the last move and that this effects the ability to do other things i.e. moving a wing for a back-up big maybe, and allowing us to use the extra pick to take Isiaih.
Not sure if anyone heard chad ford on ryan russillo's podcast today...
he said that tons of the newer/younger gms backed out of agreed deals at the last minute last night. that it pissed the old schoolers off…
if only we’d had one of the younger guys once Knight slipped all the way to 7…
At USC we're not snobs, we're just better than you.
It is hard to like the trade considering all the hype about Parker
but I think the team is sending a message that if you can’t play D then you can’t get big minutes with the kings and that is why Beno was traded. Also ee will sign or trade for another back up point and Jimmer will not get as many minutes in his rookie season as many of you think he will.
If there sending that message, please explain our first round draft pick
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
Holy crap, can't remember the last time I made that mistake
there = they’re
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
maybe this is just my vanity talking
but it really, really smarts being a universally-agreed-upon object of ridicule leaguewide, right on the heels of very nearly losing the team.
i think it would be a worthwhile endeavor for one of the STR bigwigs to do a breakdown of Petrie’s transactions since the end of the glory years, separating things into “moves that were favorable for the franchise” and “moves that weren’t.” i absolutely understand how hamstrung the poor guy’s been in regards to financing, but i’m still having a very hard time with this. for years and years and years i’ve trusted Petrie without question; i feel he more than earned that trust with his ridiculous, golden run from 99-04ish. but at this point, i honestly feel like he’s one of the very few guys other GMs call when they want to take advantage of something. like the sacramento kings need another disadvantage.
anyway. i appreciate all the measured perspective being offered around today, but to my mind this is an indefensible move, one which communicates a crystal clear need to implement a change in philosophy at the top. i no longer believe Petrie is innovative enough to get the job done. it’s the first time i’ve ever felt this way. but this move was a tipping point.
by beevenator on Jun 24, 2011 5:15 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Unfortunately, much of that would be subjective
That is, whether a move was beneficial or not would have to be viewed in the long term. It’s hard to judge the unload until they have completed the reload.
For example, Martin for Landry = bad trade, a pure salary dump. But Landry later begat Thornton. Is Thornton @ $5-6m per better than a double digit salaried Martin? And was the initial Martin trade ownership-driven as a cost cutting move?
Further, if you’re going to fairly judge his work, then start judging when he took the job to present. To completely discount his work in the late ’90’s and early 00’s would be an unfair assessment, especially since many of the deals made on the downward side of the mountain (post C-Webb injury) were a direct result of the championship chase days.
I think that the Salmons for Udrih deal stinks, but a franchise crippler it is not, as the timing of Salmons’ contract will not really inhibit the Kings from making more deals this year, and his contract (and Garcia’s) will time out and not restrict the Kings from extending Evans or Cousins.
It was a trade of mediocre players, one slightly more expensive than the other. I will have to see this magical change in Salmons’ game to believe it, and I am skeptical (at best) that he can accept his role as 4th-5th offensive option. But I’m not ready to jump from “In Geoff we trust” to “Fire Petrie!”
I guess what I’m saying is that this StR “bigwig” will pass on the opportunity.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
fair enough!
love your reasoning, as always. i agree that it’s a complex calculus, measuring the performance of these front-office types. i think i’m really just looking to externalize my disappointment with some kind of chart and/or graph. sign of the times, i guess.
i may not have been clear enough initially, but i think it goes without saying that Geoff’s tenure as a whole has been a huge success. in the past few years, though, there’s been an pretty clear pattern, in my opinion, of spotty decisionmaking. i know that these guys are scapegoated, often unfairly, for their teams’ failures. and, of course, we’re still talking about the guy who quietly turned carl landry into marcus thornton at the deadline. i respect the guy, and, like all longstanding Kings cogs, i’ve been aware of him for so long that, in many ways, he’s like a member of my family. which makes this all the more unpleasant for me.
i mean, i just can’t believe we couldn’t at the very least get a future mid-first rounder out of this. this is CLEARLY the kind of move you make in order to say, “salmons is a little rough, sure, for three years, but look at us, quietly stockpiling assets!” SOMETHING. it’s like everyone’s been saying everywhere today. just…baffling.
I was feeling the same way yesterday
But man, being a GM for a small market team must be so damn hard. I hope the new CBA will help.
You have to overpay for free agents to sign with you. Then your players’ high salaries make trading with other teams difficult. Then the draft lottery offers no guarantee of acquiring talent upgrades when you need them the most. Then you have trouble finding a coach to come oversee overpaid mid-level talents and young “upsiders” figuring out the NBA. Rinse, repeat.
You’re banking on a lucky break, completely out of your control, to start the ball rolling: win yourself a lotto with Durant, LeBron, or Rose; deal for a disgruntled talent and see if they happen to reinvent themselves on your watch; trick Kahn into trading with you; etc.
So I question this and other moves, but it’s difficult to hold Petrie responsible when his options must be painfully limited in trades, drafts, free agents, and spending.
Director of Cracked.com's After Hours and other stuff.
Follow me at... actually, don't... I'm not very insightful. Follow StR guys instead:
Aykis16, TeamZiller, Cowbell_Kingdom, pookeypurple, gwiss
totally agree
and, unfortunately, i think what happens to small-market GMs as a result of all the factors you mentioned is that the margin of error becomes razor-thin. i think, at this point in our development, we can’t afford to trade back in the lottery and not come away with future assets. i think it likely highlights some bad behind-closed-doors negotiating deficiencies. see also: martin trade, bibby extension, beno extension, cisco extension, the bonzi wells extension that wasn’t, mikki moore’s deal, etc.
also
really hoping some revenue-sharing swoops in to change this conversation completely in the new CBA.
TZ wrote:
“The Kings would have been better off making Beno the fourth guard in the rotation and rolling with the Greene-Casspi-Garcia rotation again,”
I don’t think more of the same is the right answer. Beno is a proven non-defender and our G-C-G rotation isn’t any better. With the trade down to 10 we now have our best defensive SF. Even if it comes at an offensive price, we have enough scorers on the floor (Evans, Thornton, Cousins) to make up for it. If Jimmer can prove himself a scorer at the NBA level, all the better.
I can’t wait to see what the Kings do next!
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
NBA Playoffs Content Module
Related FanPosts on Sactown Royalty
Related FanShots on Sactown Royalty
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Behind the Box Score, where the Boston Celtics are moving on to the conference finals
- NBA Playoffs Fan Fiction: San Antonio Spurs vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
- The Indiana Pacers? Gone till November
- Shaquille O’Neal is in a Chinese beer commercial, too (VIDEO)
- ‘Deep Thoughts’ and Cheap Thoughts: San Antonio Spurs vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
