Killing the Hydra
From the FanPosts. -- TZ
The biggest current issue facing our new-look Kings is how to kill the hydra at small forward. There are now 5 (five!) prototypical small forwards on the roster. Sure, Donte Greene can slide down to play power forward in stretches. Francisco Garcia and John Salmons can play shooting guard, but I think that Paul Westphal prefers both players at the 3. As Ziller pointed out, Tyler Honeycutt could be a major talent and his skills are exactly what we are looking for. But he's not going to get ANY minutes trying to play behind the older and more experienced heads of the beast. The second symptom of this disease is that we're going to submarine the trade value of whichever 2 or 3 players don't really play next season by sitting them on the bench.
The obvious solution is that SOMEBODY needs to be moved. But who, and for what? We've all seen our boys perform well in stretches, but our cumulative opinions are largely swayed by our players' likeability and particularly remarkable performances, whether they are few or common. Let's take a look at their advanced stats and try to organize a ranking. Not to decide who's best, but to decide who's worst.
For current Kings I will use their stats from last season, but I'll try to point out if those stats look like outliers or not. For Mr. Salmons, I'll use his career averages, as we don't know how he'll fit in with these current players and this current system. We also know that he was limited last year by some injuries. I'll leave Honeycutt out of this project because I don't think he's someone that we're considering moving at this point, and his college stats probably aren't hugely reliable.
Many thanks to basketball-reference.com for the stats. Great website
Offense:
True Shooting %: Basically FG% but taking into account free throws and 3-pointers
Cisco is the most effective and efficient shooter of the four. His rating here would make him highest on the team last year after you subtract Beno. Donte brings up the rear in this category, which ties him for last place with Tyreke (of players that played at least 1,000 minutes) and just a frog hair below DeMarcus (The Cornerstones, everyone!). Omri and Donte both climbed over .500 last year, but dipped this year. Salmons has grown more efficient over the course of his career, but was down last year. Salmons' career TS% would put him 3rd on the Kings behind Marcus and Cisco. His 3 point percentage has climbed over the years as well and he shot the ball from 3 better last year than anyone on the Kings, and shot over 40% on threes his last year in black and purple.
Best: Cisco Worst: Donte
Cisco - .551 Salmons - .540 Casspi - .517 Donte - .482
Usage Rate: Percentage of team possessions used by the player while on the floor
I like my SF's (for this team) to have a low usage rate, leaving plenty of room for DMC and Reke (and Jimmer) to get in reps and grow as players. All four players are close here, between 16.7 and 18.3. Salmons has the highest rate, but not by much. Omri has the lowest rate. It took a serious dip this season which I think is the main factor leading to his "slump". All of his numbers dipped as a result of being left out of the offense more in 2010-2011. I think this lead to him trying to do too much whenever he DID get the ball. A perfect storm of suckitude for Omri. This category is largely a wash. These guys aren't primary ballhandlers, so they won't really be the ones determining their usage rate. That's more in the hands of Tyreke, Jimmer, and Westphal. Slight nod to Omri here.
Best: Omri Worst: Salmons
Casspi - 16.7 Cisco - 17.3 Donte - 18.2 Salmons - 18.3
Turnover %: Estimate of turnovers per 100 plays
I think we can all agree that we would prefer that the SF's on this team be defensive stalwarts that hit open threes and generally stay out of the way on offense. Failing that, at the very least, don't turn it over! These guys vary quite a bit on how well they care for the ball. Salmons, while the worst in this category, has improved over the last few years, although his injury-riddled 10-11 campaign was... not good. Cisco on the other hand knocks this one out of the park, and has reduced his turnover percentage in every season he's had. Donte and Omri have remained pretty consistent in this area. All four men do significantly better in this category than the Kings' worst culprits, Sammy, DMC & Reke.
Best: Cisco Worst: Salmons
Cisco - 8.1% Casspi -10.3% Donte - 12.6% Salmons - 13.6%
Assist %: Percentage of assists the player dished out per possession while on the floor.
Much has been made of John "The Black Hole" Salmons. I have been one of the people trumpeting this case. But let's dive in to the numbers to see how his passing ability fleshes out compared to our other SF's. Turns out, he doesn't just fare well here, he annihilates the field. Our eyeballs have been lying to us. His assist percentage is nearly twice that of Cisco and nearly three times as high as Donte/Omri. My eyeballs tell me that he pounds the rock WAY too much and loathes passing, but according to this statistic, he's much less of a black hole than our other SF's. He's not nearly on the level of Tyreke or Beno, but he's also not really supposed to be. Donte and Omri are pretty terrible here, rarely setting up their teammates for easy scores.
Best: Salmons (!) Worst: Omri & Donte
Salmons - 15.4% Cisco - 8.0% Casspi - 6.6% Donte - 6.5%
Player Efficiency Rating (PER):
John Hollinger's system (mainly offensive) rates Cisco and Salmons at the top of the pile, with Donte bringing up the rear (starting to sound like a trend?). Salmons has improved over his career, so probably going forward will rate higher in this category than Cisco. If Hollinger were picking our team, I assure you that Donte would be left off the roster, with a worse PER than anyone not named Antoine Wright.
Best: Salmons & Cisco Worst: Donte
Salmons - 13.1 Cisco - 13.5 Casspi - 11.7 Donte - 9.7
Offensive Rating: Purely a scoring metric, designed to look at points produced per 100 possessions
This is another way to measure offensive performance, which somewhat closely matches what you'd expect to see at this point.
Best: Cisco Worst: Donte
Cisco - 113 Salmons/Casspi (tie) - 106 Donte - 97
Defense:
We all know that defense is not defined by blocks and steals, but the more data the better, right? So we'll quickly look at these categories.
Steal %: Percentage of opponent possessions that end with a steal by the player while on the floor
All four small forwards rate pretty equal in steals, with the slight edge given to (surprise!) Cisco. In another surprise, Casspi and Greene have exactly the same steal percentage, while Donte is widely considered to be the superior defender. Salmons is about middle of the road here. I'm a little shocked that Cisco ranks so favorably here, over better-regarded man defenders in Donte and Salmons.
Best: Cisco Worst: Donte & Omri
Cisco - 1.9 Salmons - 1.7 Donte/Casspi (tie) - 1.6
Block %: Percentage of opponent possessions that end with a block by the player while on the floor
No big surprises here. We already knew that Cisco is a phenomenal blocker for his position. Last year he had an astonishing 2.6 block rate. Donte has also been pretty good in this area with his superior size, but he couldn't even come close to Francisco. Salmons and Casspi are largely unspectacular in this area.
Best: Cisco Worst: Omri
Cisco - 2.6 Donte - 1.3 Salmons - 0.8 Casspi - 0.6
Total Rebound %: Percentage of available rebounds grabbed by the player while on the floor
Strong rebounding from the SF position is always a bonus. It's a must if your post men are bad rebounders. Thankfully that's not something we need to worry about, so long as DMC, JT, and Dally all remain in the fold. But it's still worth pointing out the merits of this skill. Unsurprisingly, Casspi excels here. His rate is almost twice that of the worst rebounder, Cisco. This is the one area where Francisco really falls behind his teammates and Omri shines. Cisco has decreased in this area over his career. However, last year (his worst rebounding year), he also put up the largest number of 3 pointers, which he shot at a solid clip. Donte rates out OK here, but I'd certainly expect him to destroy this category with great size and strength, which is disappointing (again).
Best: Casspi Worst: Cisco
Casspi - 10.3 Donte - 7.4 Salmons - 6.7 Cisco - 5.5
Defensive Rating: Estimate of points allowed by the player per 100 possessions
Not a hugely reliable statistic in my mind, but is another attempt to rank players by their defensive abilities. Salmons scores decently here, while Donte brings up the rear, again.
Best: Salmons Worst: Donte
Salmons - 108 Cisco/Casspi (tie) -109 Donte - 110
Intangibles:
Fit:
Obviously Salmons isn't going anywhere anytime soon. PW wanted him here, and wanted him starting at small forward. Besides, he is a plus defender and a decent 3-point shooter, so his fit should theoretically be good. The real question is who is going to soak up the minutes behind him. Omri Casspi is young and what I consider a pure small forward. I would not feel comfortable with him in the post or at the 2, so flexibility is limited. He's a good 3 point shooter which is a good fit in our dribble-drive Tyreke/Marcus offense and our DMC low-post passing game. Donte can play 2 positions, but hasn't been given much opportunity to play the 4. If we keep all three of our foul-prone big men, he is a good fit because he can slide down there for spot minutes. However, his miserable 3 point shooting is a problem. I think that Cisco is a prototypical 3, but can slide over to play 2-guard in stretches, which would be good if we keep a 3 guard rotation on the wings and PW isn't in love with Thomas or Pooh. The truth is, however, that all three players could excel in that bench role as long as they can swallow their pride and play their role.
Team/Franchise Morale:
I think that Cisco is the obvious winner of this category. He brings veteran leadership that we have at exactly zero other positions. Salmons is quiet and reserved. I don't consider Dalembert much of an emotional leader, and the rest of our boys are very young. Cisco also seems like best friends with everyone else on the team. If there are attitude issues with our stars, they would probably be a lot worse if Cisco were jettisoned. Donte has an ebullient attitude which I love having on the team. And Omri is extremely fiery, especially if the team is on a run late in a game. However, Omri might become a poison if his minutes decrease. His public trade request (or whatever it was) is still stuck in my craw. He was one of my favorite players before that. Hey Omri, it's your second year, learn to keep your head down and take less shitty shots, then we can talk about going to a contender, OK?
Contract:
Obviously Salmons has the albatross that we won't be moving in the next couple of years. Cisco has the next largest contract, nearly 6 million for the next two years and then a team option for the year after that. However, we'll be able to clear that contract from the books before Tyreke, Demarcus, or possibly Omri would need to be extended. Donte and Omri are both on rookie deals. Donte has one more guaranteed year and Omri has two more. Omri is on one of the most affordable contracts for the longest period of time. But I don't believe that any of the three contracts are going to handcuff us in any significant way.
Verdict:
John Hollinger's crappy PER rating for Donte backs up everything I'm seeing in the other stats. He's the worst shooter of the bunch, turns the ball over a lot, has a decently high usage rate, shoots the three the worst, and doesn't set up his teammates well. But he's a good defender, right? Well, not so fast. He doesn't stand out with steals or blocks, and rebounds significantly worse than the shorter Omri, who is also a better shooter. His defensive rating is the worst of the bunch. I acknowledge that he had to defend some of the best offensive players while on the court. But I think the overall look of the stats show that if not a bad defender, he certainly isn't exceptional in any way. He has a good attitude (well, at least a fun attitude), but who knows how high his basketball IQ is. My eyes tell me that he doesn't have what it takes to be a real contributor, and the stats back me up to a large extent.
On the other end of the scale, Cisco looks kind of awesome. The common view is that he was largely unremarkable this year, but he's the best shooter of the bunch, provides the most leadership, takes care of the ball and has a decent PER. In addition, he is a spirited defender (if not great), and he is phenomenal at blocking. His contract would be difficult to move anyway, so I say keep him! I think that most of us get fatigued by long-term players that don't explode into super-stardom, and thus get more excited about young guys that might blossom. I believe that the truth here is that Cisco is our best SF, statistically speaking, and if not starting, he should at least be getting significant minutes. I'd like to point out that the most common knock on Cisco is that he gives us a couple bone-headed plays each game. But the stats show that he takes care of the ball better than ANYONE on the team and now (without Beno), shoots the ball better than ANYONE on the team. Weird, huh?
We're not really debating Salmons here because I don't think he's going anywhere, I just wanted to post his stats for comparison's sake. So that leaves Omri. The Playa from Judaea is a decent shooter that doesn't turn the ball over much. I don't think he's a great defender but he rebounds extremely well from his position. However, while I'd love to see him succeed here, I think he has the most value as a trade chip because of his youth, upside, tenacity, and marketability. I also want to avoid further poisoning our locker room with his delusional trade dreams.
Recommendation:
Move Omri AND Donte. I would suggest trying to swing a three-teamer that would net us a big man. Possibly Omri to the Knicks, Toney Douglas to the Spurs and Dejuan Blair to the Kings. Or Douglas to the Suns and Lopez to the Kings. I don't know, probably pipe dreams, but I know that the Knicks covet Omri and are probably willing to dump Douglas. I just think we could use a big more than we could use Toney. The second step is to flip Donte for future draft considerations. I doubt he nets us much more than that. I personally think the best case scenario would be to move both and receive a high-mid draft pick for next year, a loaded draft.
At that point we would have a pretty simple rotation. The hydra would be dead. Salmons will eat up the starter's minutes. Cisco will back him up primarily but will also get minutes at guard. And this way, we'll get to see Honeycutt (Josh Smith 2.0) a little bit next year, as he'll be third on the depth chart. We'll also hopefully have an additional future draft pick, that GP can eventually use to make the big superstar trade we all dream about.
Go ahead, tear me apart. It's my first post.
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
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Comments
Nice post.
Why do people always think that their first post is going to be torn to shreds? You obviously put a lot of thought and work into this, and it is a good analysis.
My preference would be to trade Donté (not a good player) and Cisco (contract), but I’m not sure that either of them is attractive to other teams. I think Omri has a lot of upside and should get more consistent minutes this season so that we know what we’ve got there. If he proves to be unhappy or ineffective, move him at the deadline, and give his minutes to Honeycutt.
I know Cisco is a good guy, a glue guy, but I don’t see him getting any better than he is right now, and he’s mediocre now, except for the blocked shots. Donté was given his shot and blew it at every turn. I don’t think his BBIQ is the highest, or his motor the strongest. But he is the consummate cheerleader.
Salmons, we’re stuck with, but Omri & Honeycutt could be valuable pieces on a play-off team, in my opinion.
Even though the voices aren't real, they have some pretty good ideas!
by LeaguePassAddict on Jun 28, 2011 8:26 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I hadn't stop to think about the future
but if the both develop the offensive, rebounding Omri paired with the defensive, rebounding Tyler could be a great combination.
I would like to thank all of you for the outpouring of support during my time of need. I proudly, and with great relief, announce that my C is now working on my laptop and any errors from now on are due to my inabilty to proofread. I use to proofread my stuff, but it began lowering my self esteem,
I have found it hard to sound intelligent if I think while I key. So in summary ; the worse the keying the smarter my comment. The proceeds from the HereWeFixTheC car wash have been forwarded to HereWeBuild . Thanks.
the = they
I would like to thank all of you for the outpouring of support during my time of need. I proudly, and with great relief, announce that my C is now working on my laptop and any errors from now on are due to my inabilty to proofread. I use to proofread my stuff, but it began lowering my self esteem,
I have found it hard to sound intelligent if I think while I key. So in summary ; the worse the keying the smarter my comment. The proceeds from the HereWeFixTheC car wash have been forwarded to HereWeBuild . Thanks.
People have no idea how their first post is going to be perceived, so they expect the worst.
Great research and analysis!
"Keep a positive outlook, even when things are looking bleak. Remember, nothing is impossible."
Small-market crowds > Large-market crowds
David Stern and Associates - Bailing out the Lakers from 1984 to 2011.
I know my one and only post was quite divisive since
it was about foreign ownership, and I had made the claim that the Maloofs “had threatened, are threatening relocation.” Link: The future of NBA team ownership
Well, the comments speak for themselves.
Anyway, in retrospect it wasn’t a great or particularly good post. It was just my opinion at the time.
This.
At least you had the courage to voice your own opinion in a FanPost.
"Keep a positive outlook, even when things are looking bleak. Remember, nothing is impossible."
Small-market crowds > Large-market crowds
David Stern and Associates - Bailing out the Lakers from 1984 to 2011.
I agree with LPA here in that this was a Great first post! My only issue here being with the Assist stat. Here’s why
We know Salmons is used to being a primary ball handler (for about 15 seconds of the possession (yes i pulled that out of my ass))and is used to setting up teammates more. I see Omri as more of a catch and shoot guy then anyone in this Hydra, so not a lot of opportunity to set up a teammate. I think this is also what puts Omri in perfect position to get rebounds, as he does not have the defender right on him most times, but is looking to help on double teams of reke and thornton.
My only issue with Garcia is that I think he has hit his apex, while Omri hasnt even began climbing the mountain yet. I think you have to try to move Donte out of this equation, Keep garcia as glue guy/injury backup for Reke and have Honeycutt take up minutes at SF for the scraps
Jimmer / IT / Pooh
Reke / MT23 / Garcia
Salmons / Omri / Honeycutt
Cousins / DJax/ Whiteside
Dalembert / JT (assuming we keep Sammy)
If we dont keep Sammy and pick noone up at big position
Jimmer / IT / Pooh
Reke / MT23 / Garcia
Salmons / Omri / Honeycutt
Cousins / DJax
JT / Whiteside
Founder of team Omté Caspeen
by Widowwolf on Jun 28, 2011 8:44 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Great point about style of play
i was secretly wondering why this stat looked SO off to me. Salmons tries to create more offense on his own than the other guys, so naturally he racks up more assists. That doesn’t preclude him from being a ball-hog. But I do think it’s a higher than expected assist rate. And I think that omri and donte are lower than expected.
by Grantnapeareatskittens on Jun 28, 2011 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Agreed..One thing I see is Salmons usually plays a lot like reke: Dribble down till about 7 seconds to go, look for passer, if he sees one gets it to someone like Omri with about 4 seconds left, no chance of another pass, and Omri has to put up a pretty nasty shot in order for it not to be a 245 second violation
Founder of team Omté Caspeen
That's also why Salmons has a higher usage rate. He often initiates the offense.
As for the low assist numbers for Greene and Casspi. I agree to an extent, but you have to remember that often the catch and shoot guys are the one’s that get the assist, by making the extra pass. Initiator drives, kicks to the shooter, shooter swings the ball for the more open shot.
by Kfan in Korea on Jun 28, 2011 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
That's the difficult part in general about comparing Salmons to the other SFs
Salmons has been used in a role where he creates more offense and takes more shots, so it makes sense his TS% is lower, assists are higher and usage is higher.
The other three all had a similar role on the Kings last season, so it’s a bit easier to have an apples to apples comparison with them.
Good analysis - rec'd
I think Ziller has noted a few times that we’ve already got a (possibly better) John Salmons in Francisco Garcia. Which makes the trade even more dunderheaded (yes, I created my own word).
One thing you didn’t note is age – Salmons is 31, and has about 10,000 more NBA minutes on his odometer than Garcia, and much more on Donté and Omri. For all the fuss over potentially getting a couple of old guys in Parker and Jefferson, Salmons’ age and mileage seems to be mostly ignored in the analysis around here.
Finally, wallywagon and I had an interesting conversation about defensive ratings, and I tend to agree with him that just looking at the numbers of one player versus another doesn’t tell you that much. But comparing them to their team’s overall defensive rating year by year may be more revealing.
For what it’s worth
MP = Minutes played
TDRtg = Team Defensive Rating
Garcia
2005-2006: 1301 MP; 104 DRtg; 105TDRtg
2006-2007: 1410 MP; 108DRtg; 108TDRtg
2007-2008: 2096 MP; 109 DRtg; 109.9TDRtg
2008-2009: 1975 MP; 114 DRtg; 114.7DRtg
2009-2010: 575 MP; 111 DRtg; 109.9 TDRtg
2010-2011 1386 MP; 109 DRtg; 109 TDRtg
Career 107 ORtg/ 109 DRtg
I would do Salmons but I am in a bit of a hurry but just from quickly glancing at it, I wouldn’t be shocked if they are both fairly similar.
Words of wisdom from the great Billy Dee Williams
Oh so you disagree. Well then, here is a mature, sophisticated, and compelling rebuttal.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 27, 2011 10:42 AM PDT
Ok, here we go:
Salmons
2002-2003: 504 MP; 105 DRtg; 102.5 TDRtg
2003-2004: 1603 MP; 103 DRtg; 101.9 TDRtg
2004-2005: 993 MP; 105 DRtg; 104.3 TDRtg
2005-2006: 2059 MP; 110 DRtg; 108.1 TDRtg
2006-2007: 2135 MP; 109 DRtg; 108.0 TDRtg
2007-2008: 2517 MP; 110 DRtg; 109.9 TDRtg
2008-2009 (Sacramento): 1980 MP; 116 DRtg; 114.7 TDRtg
2008-2009 (Chicago): 979 MP; 111 DRtg; 108.7 TDRtg
2009-2010 (Chicago): 1695 MP; 106 DRtg; 105.3 TDRtg
2009-2010 (Milwaukee): 1129 MP; 106 DRtg; 103.1 TDRtg
2010-2011: 2554 MP; 105 DRtg; 102.5 TDRtg
So…unless I’m analyzing this incorrectly, John Salmons individual defensive rating has been worse than his teams defensive rating every season he’s been in the league. And sometimes noticeably so.
Cisco has done the same in one of his six seasons and appears to have a defensive rating pretty close to the team’s defensive ratings in most seasons.
Again, I think you’d have to dig into positional analysis of these numbers (on offense as well) to see how both of these guys do at SG versus SF. On the face of it though, there’s no available evidence that shows Salmons as a better defender than Francisco Garcia.
“Grant is a genius.” – section214 – 5/17/11
by otis29 on Jun 27, 2011 2:19 PM PDT
The data is pretty compelling that it shows Cisco as a better defensive player than Salmons. You take their very similar 3 point shooting, add Cisco’s defensive superiority, and it makes this trade look even worse.
Obviously, Salmons has been more of an ironman than Garcia, although a portion of Cisco’s missed time was due to an unfortunate accident. There’s no denying that Garcia seems to be a bigger injury risk.
But what’s done is done, and I’d agree that dealing Casspi and/or Greene (who I don’t think there’s much of a market for) in a package for a big is probably the right course of action at this point. Go with Salmons/Garcia/Honeycutt at the three and Garcia can grab minutes occasionally at the 2 if necessary.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
Something to consider...
Over the past couple years Salmons has seemingly been better at small forward than at shooting guard. It’s a relatively small sample size, so nothing definitive can be taken from it, but here’s what I found:
Key: OPER = Offensive PER (using 82games.com)
DPER = Defensive PER (using 82games.com)
NPER = Net Production per 48 minutes (using 82games.com…this is OPER – DPER)
2010-2011
Small Forward – 8% MIN, OPER: 18.0, DPER: 11.7, NPER: +6.3
Shooting Guard – 55% MIN, OPER: 12.2, DPER: 14.9, NPER: -2.7
2009-2010 (Milwaukee)
Small Forward – 12% MIN, OPER: 21.3, DPER: 14.1, NPER: +7.2
Shooting Guard – 15% MIN, OPER: 17.9, DPER: 12.2, NPER: +5.7
2009-2010 (Chicago)
Small Foward – 13% MIN, OPER: 13.3, DPER: 13.9, NPER: -0.6
Shooting Guard – 29% MIN, OPER: 14.7, DPER: 14.6, NPER: +0.1
Maybe it’s the scheme in Milwaukee, but Salmons seemed to be more effective at small forward than at shooting guard. Just interesting. I don’t feel like posting all the stats but Garcia seemingly was more effective as a shooting guard. Maybe that’s got something to do with their thinking?
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by CaliforniaJag on Jun 28, 2011 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Those are great stats to justify Salmons over Cisco,
but does it justify Salmons over every other SF that we could have had for the same or less money?
I actually like John, and if you go back to when we traded him along with Miller, I was one of the leading opponents to that trade as well. But, John is only slight better and duplicates everything that Cisco does only with a longer contract. Being able to play the 2 & 3, and defend both positions. And, if we end up moving Cisco for another high minute player, I might just change my mind about this trade.
But, going into the draft the general concensus was that we needed a big upgrade at SF and a playmaking PG who could shot 3’s and defend. And, as of right now, I’m not sure that we filled any of those needs. Assuming we resign Thornton to MLE money and Sammy to Salmons or better money, we’ll have $10M plus or minus to add another vet. I’m guessing an upgrade of JT is what we’d be looking at next. So, if we don’t get a big upgrade at the PF, I’m going to be very disappointed about all the improvements we made. Especially after having to go thru that horrible season last year, because the Maloofs said that they were saving the cap space to spend the money to upgrade the team this season.
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Like who?
but does it justify Salmons over every other SF that we could have had for the same or less money?
Considering we shed Beno, who were we getting for 3 years at less than 10 million that could have produced more?
I mean maybe you are right. But asking for some specifics here.
Agreed
I wasn’t arguing in favor of Salmons; I think it was a misguided (at best) trade. I’m simply trying to find what it is about Salmons that they liked so much. Perhaps it was his play at the small forward position? Perhaps they think he’s quicker than most other SF, but is big enough to defend the bigger ones?
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by CaliforniaJag on Jun 29, 2011 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
The DR vs TDR isn't always a good comparison, though.
A lot of it depends on whom an individual player is asked to guard. If Salmons were guarding opponents’ top perimeter options, then theoretically it would be quite plausible for him to be the best defender on a team while boasting one of the weaker defensive ratings.
"Where hope goes to die"
by napg on Jun 28, 2011 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
you are right that is certainly a problem.
for example, Batum with Portland.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 28, 2011 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Ha, big problem
Just looked up a lot of players.
Bruce Bowen was far worse than the Spurs D Rating in his/their prime.
Shane Battier always had a worse D Rating than the Rockets when he was a DPOY candidate.
Kobe was often higher than the team rating.
Even Michael Jordan had a mix of slightly below to slightly above the team rating.
What’s interesting is that the exact opposite it true with big men.
Ben Wallace, Tim Duncan, Shaq and even Dennis Rodman were all well below their team’s D-Ratings.
There seems to be a pretty direct correlations. Good bigs > Team Rating. Good wings playing with a Good Big < Team D Rating.
Good wings without a good big can be a different story. Shawn Marion was pretty consistently better than the Suns Team D Rating. But they were playing Amare, Shawn Marks and Bo Outlaw in the middle.
I guess this shows the comparative importance of having good defensive big men who can help you control the paint.
by SPTSJUNKIE on Jun 28, 2011 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
Looked over a few for fun
Oddly, can’t tell if Payton was every higher than the team ranking (because the team rankings are broken down by one tenths, player rankings are not) but he was right on the team rankings for quite some time. With Doug Christie though can definitely tell in in 2001-2002 he definitely beat out the team defensive score while he was right with the team rankings for awhile there.
But yeah, it seems like general defensive wings and guards tend to be a little worse on the defensive rating score then the team as a whole. Some of the well more well known all first team type players kind of bounce right at or could be above for all I know (again, don’t have one tenths for individual players) been above the team rankings once or twice but usually about equal or a step below. Again, Doug Christie was damn good in Sacramento
by wallywagon11 on Jun 29, 2011 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I'm glad this came up. It's an interesting subject.
Post-GMATs, I may dig even deeper into it and turn it into a fan post.
I think napg’s point about great wings guarding the best players on other team’s explains a lot of this. Bowen would often come out of the game when Kobe, TMac, etc. did and go back in when they did. Obviously, this will skew his rating.
Also, good defensive bigs, especially shot blockers tend to skew the score of everyone. They have the biggest effect on the team rating. And being a wing paired with an elite shotblocker looks like it widens the gap.
sorry for the weird wording at the end
basically, hard to tell because a lot of guards and wings that play plently of minutes fall about a point lower than the team defensive ratings. If you make it about even or above, awesome. If you are about two below the team mark, you might suck. And it appears to be a massive bell curve with a lot of guards and wings in the area at about one point below the team defensive score. DOes that mean they are all intertangible or some are better? I dunno.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 29, 2011 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Of course Bowen is in that below 2 spot
along with Ellis and Maggette. So yeah, weird.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 29, 2011 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I would expect defensive specialists to have a lower D Rating because....
They are usually guard the opponents best offensive player!
You aint going to have a good rating if you are trying to lock down Kobe, Lebron, Durant, Pierce, Carmelo, Joe Johnson, Granger, Rudy Gay, Brandon Roy, etc. night after night after night.
This type of analysis is completely meaningless without context.
At best, it says that Cisco is a slightly better defender than the other players on the Kings, and Salmons is a slightly worse defender than the players replacing him on the Bucks. Considering the Bucks are a very good defense, and the Kings are a poor defense, that doesn’t really tell us much.
Actually, it doesn’t even tell us that much, since it heavily favors bench players. Salmons has started much of his career and played a much larger portion of his minutes playing against other starters, who are typically much better scorers. Cisco has come off the bench for most of his career and played a much larger portion of his minutes again other bench players, who are typically much worse scorers.
So Cisco is better at defending bench players than his teammates, who are poor defensive players, are at defending starters. And Salmons is worse at defending the other team’s starting wing players than his teammates, who were very good defensive players, are at defending the other team’s bench players.
I’m obviously oversimplifying things too, but I stand by my point that your comparison isn’t very illuminating. My eyes tell me that Salmons is a better defensive player than Cisco, and I think you’d be hard pressed to find a non-biased observer (stat-geek or otherwise) that didn’t agree.
Actually, isn't that exactly what it does?
It compares each player’s overall defensive rating against his team’s defensive rating. Salmons consistently performs worse defensively than his team overall, and much of the time it’s a decent sized gap. Good defensive teams, bad defensive teams, doesn’t matter – the numbers tell the tale. Once you’ve played 18,000 minutes in the NBA, I think the caveats can stop and the reality can set in.
So do you have any data besides your eyes that tell you Salmons is a better defensive player than Garcia? You are certainly oversimplifying things, but at least I’m attempting to quantify my point of view.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
Don't see it as terribly compelling though, especially now after looking at other examples of TDR vs. DR
it was a fair attempt but not sure it means anything
by wallywagon11 on Jun 29, 2011 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Is it more compelling than someone's eyes saying Salmons is a better defender than Garcia?
That’s really my “issue” with this whole thing. Napear, Reynolds, Petrie, most of StR – I keep seeing that Salmons is an upgrade (and in some people’s minds, a large upgrade) at the SF position. So do we just accept that as fact because it’s become assumed, or is there some other method of determining it?
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
by otis29 on Jun 29, 2011 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
No I don't think it's more compelling at all actually but that's only because both are equally not compelling
Hey, I’m the idiot who said look at the difference between DR and TDR but looking up some examples it’s pretty goofy.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 29, 2011 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Otis, did you read my post above?
Bowen, Battier, Kobe all had D ratings worse than their team. Jordan even did a couple of times and when he was better, it was by a very small amount.
The stat doesn’t prove Salmons is a good defender, but taking it to show he is a bad defender just doesn’t work. Wings who guard the other teams best players tend to have a worse D Rating than the team’s rating.
Unless you think Bowen, Battier, Kobe and Jordan were/are all bad defensive players.
Nope, missed that post
Looking at it now, you are correct about Bowen and Battier. I looked up Kobe and Jordan and absolutely don’t see the same thing you do, but I ran through their numbers fairly quickly.
You could very well be right. However, the numbers also may present a closer glimpse at reality than people’s “common wisdom” of a player. We’ve seen in baseball how advanced statistics have changed people’s perception of certain players (Derek Jeter’s alleged defensive prowess comes to mind).
In my opinion, your “outliers” don’t really tell me that the use of these statistics is improper.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
I believe they are, but we are obviously coming from different viewpoints
However, I’ve always thought advanced statistical analysis was just as useful in dispelling the common wisdom as verifying what our eyes (and hearts) tell us.
I just want to see any empirical evidence that John Salmons is a good defensive player, as it’s been repeated ad nauseum by the Kings brass and their huckster doing the drive time show on KHTK. So far, we’ve been able to produce little more than “my eyes tell me he’s a better defender than what we’ve already got”.
Maybe the Synergy Sports stuff can tell us more, but I don’t have access to that data.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
Glad to know you are attaching viewpoints to me
awesome.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 29, 2011 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry if I offended you
But you stated that you don’t see this data as compelling and I don’t see the refutations of using this data as compelling.
Those are certainly different viewpoints, no?
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
I remember Salmons as a top 10 defender on the ball
my opinion. I also know that him and Beno got the same # of votes for the all defensive team this season, which I believe says even more than our eyes or advanced stats.
I would like to thank all of you for the outpouring of support during my time of need. I proudly, and with great relief, announce that my C is now working on my laptop and any errors from now on are due to my inabilty to proofread. I use to proofread my stuff, but it began lowering my self esteem,
I have found it hard to sound intelligent if I think while I key. So in summary ; the worse the keying the smarter my comment. The proceeds from the HereWeFixTheC car wash have been forwarded to HereWeBuild . Thanks.
Thought you were pulling a strawman with this line right after.
However, I’ve always thought advanced statistical analysis was just as useful in dispelling the common wisdom as verifying what our eyes (and hearts) tell us.
Either way though, I don’t define “outliers” based on my viewpoint. I tend to define it on whether a piece of data is part of a trend or way outside the trend.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 29, 2011 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Career DRs
Michael Jordan (whole career): DR 103, TDR 106
Bruce Bowen (San Antonio years): DR 102, TDR 100
Ron Artest (career, minus 2005): DR 103, TDR 104
Gary Payton (whole career): DR 106, TDR 105
Kobe Bryant (whole career): DR 105, TDR 104
John Salmons (whole career): DR , TDR 106, 108
The problem is that an individual’s defensive rating is taken out of context. What we need is some statistic measuring the efficiency of a player’s defensive assignments versus the offensive efficiency of those defensive assignments against the rest of the league. Barring that, individual DR is subject to a ton of statistical noise rendering the rating essentially useless.
"Where hope goes to die"
by napg on Jun 29, 2011 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
John Salmons: DR 108, TDR 106.
My bad.
"Where hope goes to die"
If you are pushing the team DR vs. individual DR as the metric for evaluating individual defense
Then the burden should be on you to prove that it’s meaningful. I think there is way too much noise to use a simple comparison like that to evaluate a player’s defensive ability, and the player examples posted by sptsjunkie provide some pretty compelling anecdotal evidence to back that up. Yet I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest that the team vs. player defensive rating is meaningful at all for players with different roles on different teams.
by Charlieb on Jun 29, 2011 11:44 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Baseball is mostly a one on one sport
Yes the team’s defense affects the pitcher and yes the players around you in the batting order have an effect, but it’s mostly one on one.
Basketball on the other hand is mostly about the team.
I don’t know if these defensive stats mean much, but I also don’t have the basketball mind to have much of an opinion of a player’s defensive ability.
I hope the lockout is short. Am interested to see how this works out.
by Kfan in Korea on Jun 29, 2011 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Also
My eyes saw Salmons play here in Sacramento for two and one half seasons. And I don’t remember him being a defensive stopper.
So during his tenure, this team’s defensive performance got progressively worse (team defensive ratings of 22nd, 25th and 30th). And of course, his player defensive rating was worse than the team’s each season.
And when you say he’s “started much of his career”, that would actually be less than half of his NBA games played.
Now I’ll concede (and have noted) that positional history would be a great help in analyzing Cisco versus Salmons defensively. But besides people’s eyes, there has to be some numerical evidence that Salmons is better? These guys aren’t rookies, so small sample size shouldn’t be an issue.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
by otis29 on Jun 29, 2011 5:41 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Defensive stats are notoriously underwhelming
There really isn’t a stat I know of that shows Salmons is better or worse.
My eyes from having watched them both tell me better. But you have a hard time statistically proving it.
As for our team’s defensive rating when Salmons was here, that had just as much to do with going from a veteran team to one that featured KMart, Hawes, Orion Green/Will Solomon, Garcia, JT, etc. That’s to be expected.
Expanding on this further
the 2008-2009 30th ranked defense was also right when we traded Artest; Salmons with Beno, Kevin Martin, Mikki Moore, and Brad Miller; we had the Kenny Natt debacle half way through the season; and he was only here for the first 54 games of the season.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 29, 2011 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't remember Salmons as a defensive stopper either
But the general concensus seems to be that he’s pretty good. I’d consider Cisco average at best.
Sample size isn’t the issue. The issue is that they have played different roles for different teams. I’m not aware of any statistic out there that can reliably compare the defensive abilities of two such players no matter how large the sample size.
by Charlieb on Jun 29, 2011 12:15 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Good job
Very well written and thought out piece.
I have a feeling Omri is on the move, and I’m ok with this. I get the feeling he’s caused the team some headaches, and has the most value to potential trade partners of the three. I really wish Donte would of taken things more serious his first couple years, seems like he’s just now getting on board with the team concept and accepting a more realistic identity as a player.
by Crocoduck on Jun 28, 2011 8:53 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Good post!
So basically Salmons really isn’t any better for this team than Cisco. Great. Now we have $14 or so million tied up in 2 very average players. For that much money we could have Iggy, Lamar Odom, Or Rudy gay just to name a few. And for 1/2 that we could have Wilson Chandler or Jeff Green. What a freaking bonehead move by a bad coach & a now even more questionable GM. It really is hard to be a Kings fan(smh)
I love beating dead horses.
by allbenji's on Jun 28, 2011 8:58 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
It's not really fair to say we could of had any of the names you listed.
Not unless your willing to give up Reke or DMC anyways.
by Crocoduck on Jun 28, 2011 9:30 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I understand but that really wasn't my point
It was more $14 million in the NBA gets you guys like Iggy & Gay. It’s sad all that got us was Garcia & Salmons. Also we realistically could have Green(Boston likes him but has crazy salary issues) & Chandler(Denver seems to like Gallo better & are stuck with Al Harrington who does some of the same things Chandler does) I’d take either one of those guys at $6 – $8 million over Salmons any day of the week.
I love beating dead horses.
by allbenji's on Jun 28, 2011 10:44 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I can't stand this argument.
Unless we’re talking about superstars who max out contracts, players will go to whoever pays them the most.
Chandler, Iggy, Green, Gay, Granger, etc…all will go to the highest bidder.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 28, 2011 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
I think that argument only applies to the very "cream of the crop" free agents
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
As in, I agree with you casey
Prepare yourself for the apocalypse.
"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11
All those guys were max players.
Did you read what I wrote?
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 29, 2011 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions
I think he got hung up because technically they did not sign for the max
but yeah, you clearly meant those type of players regardless
by wallywagon11 on Jun 29, 2011 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions
I interpreted what you wrote as
because max players get paid the max wherever they go, they choose destinations based on other factors. I didn’t take it to mean that max players generally choose to take less money than the max.
" 1 + 1 = 3 " - David Kahn
Oh I see.
I just meant that players that aren’t the max RARELY go anywhere but the highest bidder. Those exceptions would include chasing rings, extreme loyalty to the organization, etc…
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 30, 2011 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions
players will go to whoever pays them the most.
And that won’t be us if recent history is any guide.
by Crazy King Man from OZ on Jun 29, 2011 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I still think you're off.
Doesn’t it suck for jazz fans that for the price that they pay for AK47 and Al Jefferson they could get a guy like Dwight Howard? Or how sad is it for less than they pay raja they could have a guy like Tyreke! Obviously this isn’t the way things work, which was why I said your above post was unfair. It’s an awfully big jump from stating how much a good player makes to actually having that good player on your team. I’m curious how you would of turned the current roster, or even pre-salmons trade, into any players of equal or greater value that you have listed above.
by Crocoduck on Jun 28, 2011 2:47 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Sign Chandler or Green to something like a 5 year $35-$40 million contract
Then try to trade Beno/Garcia or let them expire in 2 seasons. Neither Beno nor Cisco has ever sulked when going to the bench. While Salmons is notorious for it. Now if we were to sign or trade for a real SF to grow with Salmons would be worthless on the bench, killing his trade value just like Kenny Thomas.
I love beating dead horses.
by allbenji's on Jun 28, 2011 3:35 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
No way
We’d never trade beno. He’s goin to groom jimmer and be our consistent guy. Beno is almost untouchable IMO at this point.
by larry_funderburke on Jun 30, 2011 8:16 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
lol
Repent heathen. Jimmer needs no grooming.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 30, 2011 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions
I meant groom from an appearance standpoint
As in Beno will brush his hair and clip his nails for him during timeouts.
by larry_funderburke on Jun 30, 2011 9:19 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I wouldn't consider Jeff Green an upgrade over Salmons
Younger with maybe more potential, but I think Salmons is clearly the better player right now.
Definitely
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 29, 2011 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions
In defense of Jeff Green...
Depends on how much value you put on “Fit”
I’d say Green is a much better fit, and therefore “value”, for the Kings. Does this mean he himself is an upgrade? Not necessarily, but does his acquisition over Salmons’ upgrade the team? IMO most definitely…
...Watching DeMarcus Cousins’ transformation from large human to immortal kill beast...
Mostly
his attitude (chemistry), age (young vet with playoff experience,) and role he would fill in balancing out an already ball dominant back court and post player. A weak argument, for sure, I just would be more excited to have even Jeff Green on this squad than Salmons, and I think Salmons is an above average player (or at least was. Kinda lost track of him in WI.) Salmons has wicked handles and ability to get to the rim (extremely underrated IMO,) but not at all what this team needs. I’ve been trying not to get too wrapped up in this trade until we see how Salmons decides to fit in (if ihe ends up staying, that is……)
...Watching DeMarcus Cousins’ transformation from large human to immortal kill beast...
I agree maybe not better but better fit
Green is younger but still entering his 5th year in the league, he is mostly a perimeter player so he won’t clog the lane, a good rebounder as a small forward, he has shown the ability to fit in with 2 high usage stars very well all of his career.
I love beating dead horses.
by allbenji's on Jun 29, 2011 2:00 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
average NBA salary around 6 million per
having two average players at 14 million is only about 18% off the average…nothing too severe.
I wouldn’t worry about it.
I would like to thank all of you for the outpouring of support during my time of need. I proudly, and with great relief, announce that my C is now working on my laptop and any errors from now on are due to my inabilty to proofread. I use to proofread my stuff, but it began lowering my self esteem,
I have found it hard to sound intelligent if I think while I key. So in summary ; the worse the keying the smarter my comment. The proceeds from the HereWeFixTheC car wash have been forwarded to HereWeBuild . Thanks.
Reply fail (again) to allbenji's
I would like to thank all of you for the outpouring of support during my time of need. I proudly, and with great relief, announce that my C is now working on my laptop and any errors from now on are due to my inabilty to proofread. I use to proofread my stuff, but it began lowering my self esteem,
I have found it hard to sound intelligent if I think while I key. So in summary ; the worse the keying the smarter my comment. The proceeds from the HereWeFixTheC car wash have been forwarded to HereWeBuild . Thanks.
I wouldn't be too worried either
If one of the players wasn’t a ball dominant, 31 year old on the hook for the next 3 years
I love beating dead horses.
by allbenji's on Jun 28, 2011 10:46 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Nice Analysis
Another helpful statistic to use for this would be Win Shares.
Offensive Win Shares (2010-11):
Casspi 1.1
Garcia 1.9
Greene -0.2
Salmons 0.9
Defensive Win Shares (2010-11):
Casspi 1.3
Garcia 1.1
Greene 0.8
Salmons 3.4
Win Shares (2010-11):
Casspi 2.5
Garcia 3.0
Greene 0.5
Salmons 4.3
Win Share per 48 minutes (2010-11)
Casspi 0.069
Garcia 0.104
Greene 0.021
Salmons 0.081
While his offense is nothing special compared to the other options, Salmons’ defense really stands out using win shares. Stats used can be found here.
I have to admit
that I don’t fully understand win shares, so didn’t include it here. The one consistent from these numbers you listed is that donte sucks. (sorry donte).
by Grantnapeareatskittens on Jun 28, 2011 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
without including all the #s involved
I’ve talked myself into being ok with Salmons. I think he will be our best man defender, he concentrates on the guy he’s defending and trys to stay in front of him from what I remember of him being here. A couple other reasons that changed my mind were that I remeber
by Chent on Jun 28, 2011 10:18 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
without including all the #s involved
I’ve talked myself into being ok with Salmons. I think he will be our best man defender, he concentrates on the guy he’s defending and trys to stay in front of him from what I remember of him being here. I remember him being creative about finishing around the rim, none of our other sf’s could finish as well as him off their own drives. He was a black hole but he can dribble, he can actually be a scoring option without being set up.
by Chent on Jun 28, 2011 10:24 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Great Post, My Takeaway:
I think the general consensus is that the Salmons trade was a lateral move, but it’’s nice to see that the stats bear it out.
I was skeptical, but looking at the stats, Cisco, as a decent passing & handling three-point shooter with high-volume blocks, may be a pretty good pro comparison for Tyler Honeycutt, as DX suggests, after all. Couple that with the well discussed intangibles and I’m fine with them keeping Cisco to mentor Tyler.
I honestly think Donté should be in the mix at 4. The games that stood out for me from Donté so far in his career, particularly that Phoenix game where he put up 31, displayed his borderline-elite athleticism, coupled with aggressiveness and a nose for the ball. He didn’t hit a ton of jumpers in that game but he got to the rim frequently. I think he’s an ideal roll man at the 4 in the new NBA and he’s already shown that his frame can support more weight, haha. I also feel like his rebounding is hampered by a tendency to watch the play develop without crashing,(Or keep spacing, who knows with all the standing around the offense had last year.) but if he’s closer to the rim it should be less of an issue. Additionally, while his 3P% dropped 9% last season, his 2P% went up (a measly .4%, but still) to 47.8%. If we aren’t going to trade him, I’d at least suggest a trial run at the 4.
Omri might want to be moved and also has the most trade value. I’d wager he’s the one on the way out, which is unfortunate, because his plus rebounding and steady 3P% are a solid base for a contributing player and he’s on a cheap deal, but a pick in next year’s loaded draft should ease that pain.
Regardless, I just hope the front office’s big move to come isn’t resigning Dalembert. He’s a nice enough player & a wonderful human being, but NaMFA(Not a Major Frontcourt Addition) in my opinion.
I agree Dont'e has little future as an SF at the kings
- like you said. He had te promiss in him, but maybe not the work ethique or the smarts to fullfill it. If Green is convinced he is better as a 3, than he should seek his luck elsewhere.
- I don’t agree with the author’s comment about Casspi being a locker room poison potetial: you know, not every player who askes for a trade is a poison to the team, it depends on his attitude, and as far as I can see – Omri will fight as hard as he can to get some minutes or up his trade value without bringing bad attitude with him.
His public request might have been wrong to do, but you see: it is FRUSTRATING AS HELL to be a spot-up shooter/energy guy that feeds from his own made shots, at a team run by Tyreke “I won’t dish it out ’till there are 3 seconds left” Evans and coached by Paul “roster stability” Westphal. Man, Garcia and Casspi would have had 42% from 3pt if he made a play for them once in a while.
by cats&shoes on Jun 28, 2011 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't see Omri as poisonous at all
It’s just competitive spirit and frustration. But the fact remains that he has more value on the trade market. Donté as a spot defender 2-4 and a change of pace 4 makes more sense to me than a 2nd rd pick, which is likely the return in a trade. I don’t think Donté is convinced he’s better as a 3 based off showing up much bulkier(Both muscle & fat) than he had been previously, but was then reprimanded by coaching staff and front office.
The way I’ve been able to get behind the Jimmer choice is that moving Tyreke off the ball and into a secondary ball-handling role is going to open angles for his slashing and drives and free him from initiating the offense. This may lead to more ‘Reke-Wade comparisons, with their respective early-career turns at 1 leading into productivity at the two spot. Tyreke isn’t the athlete Wade is but he’s bigger and I’d say his handle is tighter, and I doubt his ability to get to the line is going anywhere, even at the 2 spot. With an already improving jumper and less decision-making responsibilities, I think he could be a pretty deadly 2.
If Jimmer can dish and comes in hitting threes immediately, I think Tyreke and DMC will have a lot more freedom offensively as they won’t be facing defenses geared towards taking away their games. Getting quality outside shots should open up driving lanes and post spacing, which hopefully increases our poor FT Rate and may actually boost our dismal eFG% which all but negates the team’s elite offensive rebounding. Kings are 26th in ORTG and eFG% despite being the #1 offensive rebounding team. When you look at that, it’s remarkable they won as many games as they did; their only elite team skill, offensive rebounding, was completely wasted by poor team shooting performance.
LA area Kings' fan drowning in Laker coverage.
I'm sure he's very frustrated
Getting paid over a million dollars annually to play basketball, in California, with summers off, can be extremely difficult when your point guard isn’t a very good passer.
Tough times, such adversity…
by Grantnapeareatskittens on Jun 28, 2011 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
When your aspirations are above buying your mama a house - it is frustrating
So, by what you state here, all NBA players shouldn’t be frustrated because they all get paid to do what they love. I’m sorry, but that is not very insighful.
Omri himself is a player that gives you 200% more output if placed on a team with some good team oriented passers… unlike Marcus Thornton, who gives you product even when the playmaking sucks (and it did suck… you can’t deny it).
If you want to play better than the sum of your salaries, then you should force your guards to share the ball intelegently and on time. the other way to “success” is overpaying a bunch of indeviduals who all can create baskets from scrap.
by cats&shoes on Jun 29, 2011 7:14 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
All I know
Is that if I was paid at that level for any amount of time to do what I loved doing, I would never. NEVER go public with anything even closely resembling a trade request. Keep that shit in-house, at the very least. It is classless and insulting to the organization.
The counter-argument is that some organizations are classless, and it would be hard to fault a player from wanting off the Clippers because the owner is a slumlord who taunts his own players.
But even if Omri was on the Clippers, or any other number of disfunctional franchises, going public like that spits in the faces of all of the fans. We’re a bunch of shmoes that pay good money subtracted from our often meager wages (especially when compared with his) to buy tickets, jerseys, and otherwise support the team. Then he turns around and says “I don’t even want to play here.” It’s insulting to me and every other Sacramento Kings fan.
I can go public and say that I want out of my job, but I don’t have thousands of people pouring their heart and soul into my business, rooting for me to succeed and bring some pride to my city. He does. His responsibility level is higher than mine. That’s the price you pay to become a professional athlete. And whether he likes it or not, he’s a role model.
Trade requests (or demands) represent a quitting attitude. It’s not about fixing the situation, it’s just about getting out. This won’t make his teammates feel good, his coaches or the owners, and it sure as shit doesn’t make me feel good for owning one of his jerseys.
by Grantnapeareatskittens on Jun 29, 2011 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 8 recs
Over all kitteneater fine post
but please lay off the arm chair analysis of Omri. If making a million dollars for playing a game was the sole criteria for happiness, every player in the NBA would be happy everyday, Lebron would still be on the Cavs and KG would be ecstatic losing games up in the polar north. As I recall it wasn’t Omri who punched Donté (who really does seem happy being paid to play a game) last season.
I think you’re right that Omri may be the King’s best trade chip, I’m just not sure that this season is the right time to trade him. The reason that he is attractive to other teams is that he still has the potential to be more than he has been in his two years in the NBA. Donté at this point has slim to almost none trade value at this point in NBA career and based on your stats, the reason should be fairly clear.
I read a ton of NBA stuff daily (as most do here) and the only spot in which Donté’s basketball future is still discussed is here. You’re post made a compelling case on which player shouldn’t be on the team and it’s not Omri.
"It ain't Chinese algebra" - Tony Allen from Basketbawful
by Bluejohn on Jun 29, 2011 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions 6 recs
True but the rest of the league isn't breaking our door down for Donté
for all the reasons noted.
Omri has some trade value which I personally would be looking for him to be the one potentially moved. Of course, perhaps we’re giving up too early on Omri. The past couple seasons have been like dog years so I guess I occasionally forget he’s a very young player still.
by Sam Pandora on Jun 29, 2011 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Great post
I think trading Omri makes the most sense at this point. He’s going to get squeezed for minutes, but was good enough last year and has the marketability aspect so as to retain trade value. Donte, however, doesn’t seem likely to fetch much.
by LPKingsFan on Jun 28, 2011 1:07 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
One more question
Our coach who is in the last year of his deal wants a player to basically get him a new deal, just one more reason for me to question this deal
It would be nice if the Kings are going to deal Casspi if the Kings gave the impression of being in a postion of strength not one where they are having a yard sale like they are currently
Interesting data
For me it only clarifies what it is already known: Garcia a decent player, Casspi has been good in short bursts, Greene isn’t a good player and statistically you can show Salmons isn’t an improvement in some areas.
The crux of this trade isn’t in the efficiency stats.
a) Garcia continues to miss huge stretches of the season with injuries.
b) Casspi and Greene haven’t proven reliable enough to take up the slack in Garcia’s absence.
c) Salmons brings an element to the team match up wise which will better favor Tyreke. I recall it being mentioned in some interview with someone in the Kings brass, PW wasn’t happy with other teams matching their SF up with Reke defensively. Salmons unlike the other SF on the roster can take advantage of a small defender nullifying that match up for an opponent.
For an organization desperate for at least 10 more wins next season Salmons definitely looks like he helps solve that hole the Kings have been carrying at SF for two seasons.
sd377 wants to ban me for unleashing the Kaepernick Supernova Gamma Ray
by bignerd on Jun 28, 2011 4:00 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
As to PW's reasoning
If 6-2 Jimmer is our new PG, then teams can still switch their SF onto Tyreke and let their SG defend Salmons. Or if Tyreke is in the backcourt with Thornton who’s like 6-3.5, things will still be the same. So, I don’t see where the situation will change. Teams are still going to put their best defender on Tyreke and take their chance that Salmons won’t hurt them.
I really don’t remember Salmon posting up any SG’s over the years, but maybe being a better ball handler than any of our 3 SF’s, he’ll be able to get a better shot. Last season what I saw was 2 young tall above the rim players who didn’t get the ball going to the rim when they had a mouse in the house. Yes, Salmons probably is a better creator off the dribble, but there were ways to make use of Donte and Omri’s size advantage which we never took advantage. The next time PW designs a play to get Donte or Omri an open opportunity, will be the first time.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Jun 28, 2011 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions 7 recs
I recall Salmons with some pseudo post up / paint possessions in Sacramento, maybe once occasionally twice a game. But the match up isn’t about post up attempts … talking about small forwards here. The difference is Salmons will challenge a SG defender by attacking the the rim whereas Donte and Omnri were easy SG defensive assignments, they stood back and took deep jumpers. Omri can attack the rim but for some reason it has showed for awhile.
sd377 wants to ban me for unleashing the Kaepernick Supernova Gamma Ray
Don't we need to look at injury too...
Can Cisco really be considerd our best SF when you just can’t count on him to be on the floor. He always has something nagging him… calf, wrist, goatee. Don’t get me wrong… I love his leadership and when he is playing well he is awesome. It just feels like he’s a 29 year old in a 40 years old’s body. I love Donte’s athleticism and I wish he would just become more consistent and end this whole debate. He just screws up too often. I’m really nervous about his mindset now that the Kings got Salmons back. I think Donte felt like this was going to be his chance to start (so was last year but he screwed that up too) and now he has to feel like that chance is gone. Is he going to continue to work hard? As for Omri, his attitude almost makes me forget about the good things that he can do on the court. But then I remember that alley oop dunk for the lead against the Clippers on the first “Here We Stay” night. He has a lot of passion and it’s fun to see him get it going. But how long is it going to be before DeMarcus starts trying to punch him in ther grill because of his attitude? I say just get rid of all of them and bring back Big Nasty Corliss Williamson!!
This really is well done sir! Great analysis and stats. I am going to have to tear it apart though...
Wait, got nothing… Uhmm. OK, got it. You should bold your headers. Cause such outstanding work should have awesome section clearly delineated.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Since none of the 3 had an Apers above 12.0, I don't see a reason to keep any of them
based on stats. What I would say is that Omri was in the top 10 rookie in his first season until he hit the rookie wall. And, considering his rebounding and 3pt shooting the only reason for PW not to play him in his 2nd season was that Omri was the poorest defender of the three.
DX had this to say about Omri’s defense prior to the draft
He still is lacking somewhat in the fundamentals department, having a difficult time fighting through screens due to his lack of strength, and being a little bit over-exuberant in the passing lanes.
From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Omri-Casspi-538/#ixzz1QeF1GtVu
http://www.draftexpress.com
Also they had this to say about his offensive game
Off the dribble, Casspi’s poor mechanics hinder him from being much of a threat, which limits his offensive potential to a certain degree. An average ball-handler at best, (particularly trying to change directions) Casspi is pretty limited as a pure shot-creator, although his athleticism and aggressiveness allow him to make plays at the rim regardless. He shows excellent scoring instincts, but still has a ways to go in terms of improving his all-around offensive polish. He can beat his man off the dribble with his quick first step, and loves to finish above the rim if given the opportunity to do so.
From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Omri-Casspi-538/#ixzz1QeFtNtJV
http://www.draftexpress.com
So, offensively he’s not a great shooter off the dribble, but likes to finish above the rim when he can get the ball going to the basket. Which is something that we already know by watching him finish the fast break. Until he can improve his ball handling, he’s a player that needs help from screens so he can slash to the basket. Help he isn’t getting from PW’s offense.
Defensively he’s a 2nd year man who came in with poor fundaments, and either hasn’t picked it up fast enough from the coaching staff, or isn’t getting the help he needs from the staff. (pick your poison) I don’t remember a rookie having such a hard time with the rookie wall and I think I’d only give him credit for half a season his first year.
Still, I think other teams may see his potential more than PW, so I believe he has more trade value and will likely be moved. As for Donte, well this is his final year of his rookie contract, and if the Kings can’t move him then they probably just won’t make him the QO and let him walk.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Show me another rookie who did that much off the court his rookie season and was productive enough. Granted the coaching staff should have held him back a bit more from all of it, and he should have realized it would bite him in the ass
Founder of team Omté Caspeen
At least he learned from it.
He cut back a ton last season compared to the circus of his rookie year.
In these times, you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning.
~Carl Sandburg
Good points HT
I have to agree with everything you said. Casspi has all the issues noted. I think he would do much better in a team that had better passing.
I didn't major in Common F-cking Sense, but ...
Very nice post
I want to touch on the “the black hole” comment regarding Salmons. It’s not that Salmons is selfish, it’s that he has historically been very ball dominant, dribbling a shot clock away until the team is reduced to very few options on that possession. Using Tyreke Evans as an example, Evans has led this team in assists for the past couple of seasons, and no one would refute the fact that he has a habit of over dribbling and holding the ball too long.
John Salmons is not selfish and he’s not a chucker. What he is is a guy that historically throughout his career has disrupted the offensive flow of his team by holding onto the ball way too long. And this was certainly pretty much agreed upon the last time he was here, and not much has changed about his game since he left.
You would think that a guy named Salmons would believe more in the concept of catch and release.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jun 29, 2011 8:26 AM PDT reply actions 6 recs
You're right
It’s difficult to quantify the differences in style of play with Salmons versus our current guys. As others have also pointed out, he’s trying to create more offense, so naturally his assist rate is higher than guys we consider “catch-and-shoot” players. And I didn’t fully take that into account when perusing the stats.
But I do think it’s telling that he has a similar usage rate as Omri and Donte while having a better TS% and assist rate. We don’t think of those two as being nearly as ball dominant as Salmons. But I think that’s an illusion. I believe those two players (at the level they were last year) if they played 36 minutes a night, we may very well have the same view of their lack of offensive-flow-awareness.
High turnovers, lower TS%, low assist rate. They certainly seem kind of black-hole-y, just haven’t had enough minutes to really earn that reputation in our eyes.
by Grantnapeareatskittens on Jun 29, 2011 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
By the way, I couldn't listen to the whole thing but did anyone catch Fat Lever yesterday on 1140 talking about Salmons?
I only got the beginning of it but he was talking about how much he loved Salmons. Just curious if anyone else heard it.
And yeah I know there is a company line with this stuff but I was just wondering if he went into any particulars or anything. Might not really matter much but was curious what he was about to say and I got busy.
Uhmm
And yeah I know there is a company line with this stuff
‘nuff said, we know there are positives to Salmons’ game but . . .
If he comes in and plays D and rarely handles the ball or takes a shot (PWs requirements apparently), you knw, completely changes his game – then I’ll be reasonably happy.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Jun 29, 2011 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
nuff said?
or I just wanted to know what he was talking about specifically that’s all.
by wallywagon11 on Jun 29, 2011 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions
same ole, same ole
nothing we didn’t hear from Petrie
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Jun 29, 2011 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions
to pile on
He works for the Kings and he is a former player, neither occupations tend to be the most “truthful” in terms of guys being totally “honest”
The 8.5 man rotation
A while ago, I read an article in which Bill Simmons wrote that generally, you only need 8.5 guys on your team to get minutes: 5 starters, 3 bench guys, and a 8.5th man to play minutes in blowouts, as a prospect, alleviate foul trouble, injury, etc. How might we look under this model?
5 starters: Evans, Thornton, Salmons, Cousins, Dalembert
3 bench: Jimmer, JT, Garcia
0.5 guy: Honeycutt
I don’t see much room for Casspi or Donte…sub one in for Garcia, and then you have the effective Garcia riding the pine. Maybe remove Jimmer or Honeycutt, but then you’ve got rookies not gaining experience.
I agree, I think it would be good to move a wing player.
I like that...
but I’d like to make the 0.5 guy Hassan Whiteside.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 29, 2011 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions
As of today, I'd make it Jackson
until either Whiteside or Honeycutt becomes better than him
I would like to thank all of you for the outpouring of support during my time of need. I proudly, and with great relief, announce that my C is now working on my laptop and any errors from now on are due to my inabilty to proofread. I use to proofread my stuff, but it began lowering my self esteem,
I have found it hard to sound intelligent if I think while I key. So in summary ; the worse the keying the smarter my comment. The proceeds from the HereWeFixTheC car wash have been forwarded to HereWeBuild . Thanks.
Huh?
In these times, you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning.
~Carl Sandburg
I think he means he's not signed yet
But we still have his Bird rights. Assuming those exist for at least this upcoming season in the new CBA.
Ahhh...gotcha.
In these times, you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning.
~Carl Sandburg
Great post!
I agree as well. Donte has to go. Followed by Omri or Garica — though I still really like Omri’s upside. So, despite Francisco’s slight advantage, I’d rather ship Francisco. I know he has great leadership and puts up susprisingly good PER Stats. Maybe I’m still one of the very few who think, if given more minutes, Omri’s PER #’s and stats would be great.
My mannerism a prism/ And it should shine
Light it if you would/ Be so kind, right now'd
Be A' Good Time
by DaRubiesSLOKingsA's on Jun 29, 2011 10:03 AM PDT reply actions
Garcia and Salmons "feel" redundant to me, but Omri+Donte should be moved
But I think we should move Omri in that I’d say the market overvalued him.
Donte… He seems like he should be better but he just plain isn’t.
Lastly, Cisco has traditionally been a little injury prone, so redundancy isnt necessarily terrible.
Unfortunately, I don’t see much market for Donte. Reasonably athletic, poor shooting, so-so small forwards are not exactly a rare and hard to find commodity!
movement
I think garcia can be moved if omri is the piece of cheese you hide the pill in.
What i remember from last year was our sf’s consistently being abused by other sf’s and me yelling at the TV in frustration. Omri particularly was bad in this area.
It would be nice to package Omri (cheese) and Salmons/Cisco (pill), along with our cap relief, to get a star after this new CBA is announced.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 29, 2011 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Many here talk about trading Casspi, as he seems to have the most value
amongst the young guys. I agreed/agree with that to a point.
But now that we have a new starting SF (gulp), the very reason I was willing to part with him, I’d like to know just what my fellow StR bloggers think we should seek in return?
It seems to me that if we were to address any more positions it would be in the PF or C position. Is there a piece out there that is available? I’d say the Wolves were now heavy in the frontcourt (though no Cs) but they need a shooting guard more than anything – not that the facts may be an obstacle to Kaaaaaahn.
I’d rather have him here and frustrated than moved just because there’s a logjam and he may be unhappy.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
Number one, we have to deal the the Dalembert issue
Sam has a $19M cap hold, so we might not even be able to resign Thornton if they lower the cap and eliminate bird rights. Then if we resign Sam, the situation changes and PF becomes the priority. Although with the cap that’s left, a major upgrade my not be possible.
I can’t see adding another guard. They’re going to play Jimmer major minutes like they did with Tyreke and DeMarcus even if he has a problem at first. We have 4 SG’s in Evans, Marcus, Cisco and Salmons. And, I don’t see them adding any SF’s until they move Casspi or Cisco. So the only upgrade I see them making after they resign Dalembert is someone to replace JT in the rotation. I’m looking for a trade that includes JT and Omri for a high price PF, maybe Josh Smith.
But, it’s hard to guess who might be available (other than FA’s) until we know if the CBA is going to force teams to lower salary.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
I'd be 100% behind that trade.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 29, 2011 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
If they allow a sign and trade
I could see Sammy going for Josh Smith if he doesn’t want to stay here. I don’t know about giving up JT and Casspi for Josh though.
Maybe
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Jun 29, 2011 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Atlanta starting:
Hienrich, Johnson, Williams, Horford, Dalembert would be pretty sweet.
Also us starting: Tyreke, Thornton, Salmons, Smith, Cousins would be even sweeter.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 29, 2011 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah they've been trying to do that for a while.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 29, 2011 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Teams would be interested in Casspi the most
So I say trade him along with a lottery protected 1st for Paul Millsap or Dejaun Blair
Does anybody think Blair is available?
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jun 29, 2011 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
No
He’s a bargain right now
no way
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Jun 29, 2011 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Since it's the season
Of bringing back old expensive retreads with game/personality issues who might marginally help the team (at best), I say we package Omri (and whoever else to make the salaries work) and bring back Andres Nocioni.
Free Noce!!!
Does that mean that we get Noc1 back too?
Where's my pie
by TheFifthMookie on Jun 29, 2011 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Chapu4you...!!!
...Watching DeMarcus Cousins’ transformation from large human to immortal kill beast...
by Sacto_J on Jun 29, 2011 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would rather strangle myself.
In these times, you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning.
~Carl Sandburg
by PurpleLoco on Jun 29, 2011 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Salmons will not have the ball in his hands
anywhere near as much as he use to when he was the primary scorer and secondary ball handler.
I would like to thank all of you for the outpouring of support during my time of need. I proudly, and with great relief, announce that my C is now working on my laptop and any errors from now on are due to my inabilty to proofread. I use to proofread my stuff, but it began lowering my self esteem,
I have found it hard to sound intelligent if I think while I key. So in summary ; the worse the keying the smarter my comment. The proceeds from the HereWeFixTheC car wash have been forwarded to HereWeBuild . Thanks.
Excellent work, thank you!
It´s a shame, but I agree that now, since there won´t be a lot of room for Cisco at the 2 he needs to get the minutes at SF behind Salmons. That has Omri and Donte falling off tge edge because even at this early point I´d rather see Honeycutt to get some floortime. I feel sorry for both, but Donte maybe should be further by now and Omris statement really pissed me off!
I can't believe I got front-paged
I’m not one for hyperbole, but I may very well be the greatest poster in the history of Sactownroyalty.
Nay, the history of the interweb!
by Grantnapeareatskittens on Jun 29, 2011 3:08 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Or at the very least, Greatest poster of today so far.
Congrats.
I would like to thank all of you for the outpouring of support during my time of need. I proudly, and with great relief, announce that my C is now working on my laptop and any errors from now on are due to my inabilty to proofread. I use to proofread my stuff, but it began lowering my self esteem,
I have found it hard to sound intelligent if I think while I key. So in summary ; the worse the keying the smarter my comment. The proceeds from the HereWeFixTheC car wash have been forwarded to HereWeBuild . Thanks.
Hate to be the one to break the news, oh great one
But if that is the case – it’s all downhill from here.
by betweentheeyes on Jun 29, 2011 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Not surprised it was front-paged.
For me, this an outstanding post for so many reasons:
1. Informative – I learned things, some surprises
2. Well organized, easy to follow
3. Easy to understand – you broke things down
4. Nice use of statistics – with analysis
5. Relevant
6. Supported your conclusions
The key to any game is to use your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
-Paul Westphal
Completely agree
Nice read and nice job. I’m handing out gold stars today…..

...Watching DeMarcus Cousins’ transformation from large human to immortal kill beast...
by Sacto_J on Jun 29, 2011 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Outstanding post, rec.
I agree with your conclusion of getting rid of Donte, to a lesser Casspi. Your analysis supports what my eyes have told me about him. Cisco faired better than I would have thought. This was probably the biggest surprise to me.
I wasn’t surprised by Salmons having the best Assist % as I have not seen him as the black hole that some have. It was no surprise that Casspi and Donte were the worst here.
The key to any game is to use your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
-Paul Westphal
We are pretty much stuck with Cisco and Salmons anyway
and they appear to be the best of the four, probably due to their experience. I think your conclusion is valid, particularly if it yields us a young big in the process. Dalembert may not resign, and our depth up front is a weakness or at least an area where we can get better.
"His D was a difference at the end."
Ahhh, statistics are overrated! what's best for the Kings:
- Trade Omri and Thornton to get back a reliable, pass-first point guard (in his prime right now) – Mike Bibby
- Send Sammy to Miami for Ilgauskas… man ,you’re gonna love his passing game down low !
- buy out Tyreke’s contract to make room for a better volume shooter, someone of stature – like Antwan Walker.
I see the kings as a 45 win team instantly.
Twitter : STEIN_LINE_HQ Marc Stein
Just filed to ESPN.com: Cavaliers and Kings in advanced discussions on a J.J. Hickson-for-Omri Casspi deal. Link on the way
Scot Pollard for President
Well, looks like THAT hydra's out of the way.
"Where hope goes to die"
Timely post.
Grantnapeareatskittens = Donte Greene?
Psychic.
In these times, you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning.
~Carl Sandburg
by PurpleLoco on Jun 30, 2011 8:47 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Dune fan?
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jul 1, 2011 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions

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