Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

The Front-Court Forum: What have we done and where are we going?

     A couple of weeks ago I posed a solution for slaying our small forward hydra, intimating that the most pressing concern for our squad, as currently constructed, was what to do with the logjam at that position. Well, the Kings brass responded to that question (in large part) by jettisoning fan favorite Omri Casspi to Cleveland for the young and equally-or-more promising big man J.J. Hickson. I complained in my previous post about Omri's passive-aggressive trade request. And while I don't take back anything I said, I will say that I was sad to see him go. I thought it was the right move to ship him out, but I truly wish that he had been able to bloom into our SFOTF (small forward of the future). Good luck, Omri, you were fun to root for.

     In a vacuum, i think the swap was brilliant, we netted a cheaper, younger and currently more productive player at a position of need for one that was likely to see his already-erratic minutes slip more in 11'-12'. Radical. But what do we do now? Does this spell the end for Samuel Dalembert? Is that a good thing? Let's see....

 

Star-divide

     To make my eventual argument, I need to establish (or at least argue) a couple points. Bear with me.

1. JJ Hickson & Jason Thompson are similar players. At least to the Kings.

     I see both players as fringe starters that would probably excel as high-minute bench guys on good teams. JJ's usage rate was out of control last season and should settle down significantly on this team. So that makes them difficult to compare, but let's try anyway. Jason is taller at 6-11 to JJ's 6-9, but only has 8-10 pounds over him. Both guys have played center AND power forward. Both would probably prefer PF but can be flexible. I think JT has more ability to play the center position, but JJ has done OK there before as well. So JT's got weight and height over JJ, but JJ is younger, (nearly) 23 to JT's (nearly) 25. 

     JJ has a better total rebound percentage (TRB%) at 17.7% (up from 14.1% the year before) than JT, who was at 14.8%. However, JT played with Cousins (17.2%) and Dalembert (19.3%) last year while JJ lined up with Andy Varejao (17.4%) for only 31 games, Antawn Jamison (11.7%), and Ryan Hollins (9.0%), who is worth mentioning even though he only played 17 minutes per game. True, JT's TRB% was not great the year before either, when he lined up next to Spencer Hawes (only 13.1%), but either way, I don't think the gap is huge. Advantage JJ, but not by a large margin.

     JT posted a respectable .507 FG% last year, improving over the previous year. JJ sunk badly in this department, shooting only .458. Although, as it has been documented, his usage rate soared last year with a lack of offensive options. But still, .458?!? That's not "Demarcus Cousins bad", but it's bad. Both are crappy foul shooters (in the 60-70% range), and neither shoot threes, so FG% is a decent way to compare them. I'm with everyone else here that feels they've seen JT miss a kajillion easy bunny shots around the rim, which can be infuriating. But did anybody notice him just crank it up towards the end of the season? He attempted more shots (8.6) over his last 10 games than at any other point in the season and converted 64% of them. Yes, it's a small sample size, but I think that's more the real JT than the guy who started the season shooting 33% from the floor. JJ also picked up steam towards the end of the season, hitting 53.1% of his shots over the last ten games and shooting more than at any other point in the season. But overall, both have been somewhat erratic in this area. I believe that JJ has more of an ability to create his own shot, but paired with Tyreke and Demarcus (and Marcus and Jimmer)... will he even get a chance to do that? They both take between 55% and 60% jumpers, so are similar in where they like to shoot the ball. JT shoots a higher percentage on jumpers, but while being assisted more. I think that ultimately both players will be utilized the same way (finishing plays, knocking down open jumpers, etc.), allowing DeMarcus to handle the ball more in the post. So I think that it is very reasonable to expect that, used in this way, they will be somewhat similar shooters and finishers.

    JJ posted a PER two points higher than JT last year (15.6 to 13.6), but in the advanced stats field, only really rates better as a rebounder. Their turnover and block rates are nearly identical, JT's shooting percentages were better but with far fewer shots.

   So, in my estimation, similar players. Or, at least, similar role on the team. J.J. could explode into a "20 & 10 guy". But we just don't know at this point. Currently, as they are TODAY, they flesh out pretty similarly. JJ has shown more improvement over his three years than Jason (becoming a better passer, rebounder, and less turnover-prone), but as the team stands now I wouldn't bet the farm on either player outperforming the other next year. The point here is, who knows?

2. We need defense in our front court.

     Does anybody really want to see us play against the Dwight Howards, Bynums/Gasols, Randolph/Gasols, Nenes, Dirks, and Lamarcus Aldridges of the world with a combination of DMC and JT or JJ? Really? Now that might, MIGHT be a potent and effective (and God-willing, efficient) big man tandem on offense, but on defense? Please... Stats don't tell us nearly enough about our players as defenders, but we do know a few things: JT, JJ and DMC are not prolific shot-blockers. DMC posted a 2.1 block percentage, JT and JJ both at 1.8%. Dalembert, a proficient blocker, is at 4.3%, for comparison. None are prolific ball hawks either, posting 1.9% steal rate (DMC), 1.1% (JJ), 0.8% (JT), last year. For comparison, Tony Allen led the league with 4.51% last season.

    More importantly (in this department, at least), what do our eyes tell us? We know that DeMarcus can be a lazy defender (foul monster, often frustrated). He draws a large number of charges, but doesn't often lock his man down in position. We know that JT is an OK defender (still a foul monster and whiny-pants himself), and we've heard from all of our Cavs friends that JJ can be somewhat non-committal on defense (wheeeee!). My gut tells me that we'll be in bad bad shape with our roster as currently constructed without bringing back Dalembert. Dalembert handled the other team's best big man, letting DMC be DMC on the defensive end and handle the rock more on the offensive end. With DMC-JJ? How do you choose who to put on Dwight Howard? Do you just forfeit? and the fouling (OH, the fouling!), JJ racks up 3.5 fouls per 36 minutes, JT does one better at 4.5 fouls per 36 minutes. DeMarcus takes the friggin' cake though, at a monstrous 5.2 fouls per 36 minutes, good for most in the league last year. I don't want to have to put him on all of the bigger players in the league defensively.

     Quickly let's look at a few teams that are a step or two ahead us in the front-court department: Chandler allows Dirk to be Dirk. Camby allowed LMA to be the LMA we saw last season in Portland. Bynum allows Pau to be Pau. Perkins allowed KG to do his thing. Noah allows Boozer to be the offensive threat he should be (at least on paper this works). Emeka takes weight off of David West's shoulders. In a bizarro fashion Kenyon Martin takes pressure off of Nene by defending the best big man on the floor even though he's the smaller of the two. I just listed 6 playoff teams that share this basic philosophy. They are all balanced in their front-court. Even Joel Anthony (while pretty sucky taken alone) does a decent job balancing the Miami roster because he plays defense and doesn't take shots. I think this sort of combination works much better, in general, than two offensive or two defensive players. The teams that lack adequate defensive big men to compliment their star offensive big men? Toronto with Bargnani (bottom feeder), New York with Stoudemire (can't guard anybody while also wearing their star down), and Atlanta with Horford (good playoff team, but this is constantly their achilles heel). Obviously there are big exceptions to this "rule" (hi, Tim Duncan!), but generally I think it is easier to build a winning team with this philosophy. Talented offensive bigs are more common than talented defensive bigs. They come at a premium, and rightfully so.

     We made a lateral move defensively in our back-court (Jimmer for Beno) by all accounts. Unless Jimmer really surprises us, we won't be improved defensively in that area. We should be improved at the SF position defensively with Salmons, but he's no all-NBA talent. I hope that we can agree by moving from Dalembert-Cousins to Cousins-Hickson (or Thompson), we slide back defensively even more. We had the 12th worst defensive efficiency last year and the 6th worst opponent eFG%. Of the top 15 teams in defensive efficiency last year, 14 of them were playoff teams. I can't take it any more. We NEED to get better defensively, dammit.

Conclusions:

    What I hope (and pray) the mindset of the Kings will be is to go hard after a couple of top tier free agent centers for next season. Number one on that list is Tyson Chandler. I loved what he did for the Mavs long before they made their crazy championship run. It's almost too bad that it went that way because it probably drove up his price and put him out of our range. But at 28, he's worth at least 10 million a season for the next several years (in my opinion). We often hope that guys will bring "veteran leadership" simply because they've been around for a while. But I don't think that Salmons does that (quiet, reserved), or any number of other players. Chandler really has this quality, in spades.

    Dalembert is a close second option. Hopefully he's more affordable and still wants to play here. He knows the guys and is fun to root for. I really liked what he brought to the team and wouldn't mind seeing him stick around. I would not be upset about giving Nene a hefty paycheck either, although I think the first two guys are a better fit for the reasons I listed above (primarily defensive players).

     (EDIT - Duh, I left out Marc Gasol in the first edition of this post. I'm a moron for doing so, because Marc is very, very good. Talent-wise, I think the list goes Chandler, Nene, Gasol in some order, then Dalembert. Fit-wise (for estimated salary) I'd take Chandler first, Dalembert second)

    If the Kings strike out on those three, I seriously wouldn't be upset to see them rooting around for Andrei Kirilenko, Kris Kardashian, or even (gulp) Greg Oden. But neither of those three will be worth a big paycheck (maybe AK47).

    The counterpoint to this argument will be that we are repeating the situation we had with Carl. Mandry needed minutes just as much as our other bigs and eventually had to be moved. Logically we don't want 4 guys that should all be playing. I understand this point and totally sympathize with it. But now I'll refer back to my "JT and JJ are relatively similar players that very well might play similar roles on this team" argument. Both players will be restricted free agents after next season. If they lock up a center for an extended contract, and assume that they'll lock up DMC when the time comes, then next season they just decide which player (JT or JJ) they like better and sign him up to be your third big for the foreseeable future. Yes, we may create a logjam in the interim, but both players will get a chance to shine and the cream will hopefully rise to the top. It is similar to the Carl experience but would have a much more obvious solution. The season may very well be shortened anyway, so if there is a logjam, it will be short-lived.

     I won't be angry with the Kings for not getting any of the four highly-valuable targets at the top of my list for next season. But I WILL be upset if I hear that they didn't even try. Sitting on your hands and being OK with swapping Jimmer, Salmons, and JJ (and two second round guys) for Dalembert, Beno and Omri is NOT a successful offseason in my eyes. It's lateral. and it sure ain't what I call "spending".

    So George, Gavin, Joe and Geoff, and Slamson, please lock down our center of the future now. Please. Make your decision on JJ or JT after what very well may be a shortened season.

 

God bless you Basketball-reference.com, Hoopdata.com, and Shamsports.com for supplying my research. You guys sure are groovy.

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

Comment 105 comments  |  15 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Like the post, but don't think you are being fair to JJ in the comparison with JT

You essentially “knock down” JJ’s rebound rate because of who he played with. This is fair.

However, I think you also have to “up” his FG percentage. The Cavs were awful last year and JJ had way too high of a FG% for his talent. And while he can create some offense, he was asked to create far more than his skill level dictates. If JT had a similar role, his FG would plummet.

JJ had a 51% and 55% FG percentage the previous two years with a usage rate in the 18-19 range. JT has shot 49%, 47% and finally 50% the last 3 years with a usage rate in the 18-20 range.

So while it’s fair and smart to knock down JJ’s rebound rate a bit in the comparison, I think we also need to up his FG%. As of now, he appears to be a better scorer.

by SPTSJUNKIE on Jul 11, 2011 12:55 AM PDT reply actions  

The Kings have Hassan Whiteside...but...

…the Kings might also want to consider Marc Gasol and Deandre Jordan after (before?) the 3 strikes mentioned in the conclusion.

by getPGwithbounce on Jul 11, 2011 12:57 AM PDT reply actions  

I don't think Whiteside should factor into the discussion at all

He was project when he drafted him and he still is. If he proves to be something more than that, it gives lots of options. But he has shown nothing so far to make the Kings even consider that he is NBA ready. Our need for a starting center should stand on its own.

It comes down to reality
And it's fine with me 'cause I've let it slide

by SavageBeast on Jul 11, 2011 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

yep

I have a suspicion that the front court is what it’s going to be though. All this talk of spending on another big FA? Unless there is a trade in that mix to thin out what would be a logjam – I don’t see it, I see the ‘we couldn’t get fair value’ excuse coming as to why they don’t actually spend any more money.

"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower

by lietothegirls on Jul 11, 2011 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think they are going to have a serious problem

with both us (the fans) and Stern if they attempt to retain a bottom 3 in the league team salary. If that premise is true, they still have plenty to spend.

As a result of the NBA going dark and staging a lockout I plan on saying only depressing things until the season starts. If they put out the schedule I plan to also go and sit in the Arco parking lot on nights games would have been played. I will Tivo CSN on games nights. They can't stop me. Its my team and I'll cry if I want to, cry if I want to.

by ElRonToro on Jul 11, 2011 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Never the less

The John Salmons trade has me thinking that way. It sure seems that someone would have to be moved to add another significant, high value FA body just about anywhere.

"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower

by lietothegirls on Jul 11, 2011 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Salmons isn't coming off the bench, (what has changed?)

Tyreke isn’t, Cousins I doubt will – and JJ, JT and Thornton all merit significant minutes on just about any team. You have to play The Jimmer now that you took him . . . .
In my view we have 3 starters and 4 guys at least who you need to find minutes for, and that isn’t even couting who between Cisco and Donte backs up the SF spot. That’s eight guys.

"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower

by lietothegirls on Jul 11, 2011 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

They are only a tad over 40 million in Salaries

If the do sign a starting big I do not think that whoever is the 4th big between Jj and JT will be satisfied with minutes they would get as a #4.
I think 2 of the top current 8 may be gone by start of season and 2 added in their stead.
Reke DMC Thornton JJ JT Salmons Fredette and Cisco are my current top 8.
Greene could/should edge out Cisco for the 8 spot.

As a result of the NBA going dark and staging a lockout I plan on saying only depressing things until the season starts. If they put out the schedule I plan to also go and sit in the Arco parking lot on nights games would have been played. I will Tivo CSN on games nights. They can't stop me. Its my team and I'll cry if I want to, cry if I want to.

by ElRonToro on Jul 11, 2011 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

I also have this feeling that the Maloofs will not try to obtain a frontcourt FA =[

"the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars" — Jack Kerouac

by Normdog on Jul 11, 2011 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Gavin has said, and this is a semi-quote

That they are going to try and get the #1 FA big man, and if that fails they will go try to get #2 and will keep going and trying until they land someone they like.

As a result of the NBA going dark and staging a lockout I plan on saying only depressing things until the season starts. If they put out the schedule I plan to also go and sit in the Arco parking lot on nights games would have been played. I will Tivo CSN on games nights. They can't stop me. Its my team and I'll cry if I want to, cry if I want to.

by ElRonToro on Jul 11, 2011 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I hope that's true ElRon. I'm just too much of a cynic to believe anything Gavin/Joe/George say.

"the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars" — Jack Kerouac

by Normdog on Jul 11, 2011 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

I thought DeMarcus was our Starting Center,

but now because there are more FA centers available than PF’s, we need to sign a Center?
Jordan would be a nice backup, if we didn’t already have JT.

I’d rather see us add a veteran starting PF who can take the pressure off of DeMarcus. And, we’d end up with upgrades at both starting big positions and the backup PF. Assuming David West checks out physically, the lockout should give him additional time to recover. He’s averaged 76 games per season over the last 4 years, 20 pts, 8 rebs and he’s a 85%+ FT shooter. And, he has a low turnover rate.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jul 11, 2011 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm fine with either a center or PF

Depending on how they see Cuz. Cuz will start, but I can see him playing center if we sign a big name PF or PF is we sign a center. I would love it of we signed David West and I will also be pretty thrilled if we signed M. Gasol. My biggest concern is that if we do start Cuz at center, our only proven b/u is JT. I’m just not sold on JT as a true center and Cuz has had problems staying on the floor.

It comes down to reality
And it's fine with me 'cause I've let it slide

by SavageBeast on Jul 11, 2011 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Positional Labels are silly.

Defense is not Cousins’ strong suit at this point in his career. He’s an offensive machine, and a passable defender. We need a front court mate for him that can cover the best opposing front court player, and let Big Cuz take the other one. It doesn’t matter if Cousins plays Power Forward or Center, as long as the two of them as a pair can cover the opposing two front court players.

Take this match-up, for example:
Cousins and Sammy D
vs
Bynum and Gasol

Dalembert covers Gasol (PF) because he is the more skilled, quicker player; Cousins covers Bynum (Center, and well—remember THAT game?) because he is the less skilled, bigger player.

Now look at this one:
Cousins/Sammy
vs
Nene/KMart

Dalembert covers the more threatening Nene (Center) while Cuz covers Martin (PF).

It’s all about defensive assignments. As long as we have a defensive minded center that can cover the best front court player on the other team, we’ll be fine.

IMO, at least.

I cannot agree with those who rank modesty among the virtues. To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are, and to underestimate one’s self is as much a departure from truth as to exaggerate one’s own powers.
--Holmes, on Modesty

by Donovan Jeska on Jul 11, 2011 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

Donovan, it's not just your opinion, it's a fact.

Look at the championship teams since the history of NBA and you’re going to see a good post scorer and a good post defender, with very few exceptions. This is why I think Chandler would be more valuable asset to this team than Nene or Gasol.

by Crocoduck on Jul 11, 2011 12:41 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

agreed!

You said what I said but took about a thousand less words to do so. nicely done.

by Grantnapeareatskittens on Jul 11, 2011 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Chandler is awesome

just the injury stuff is kind of scary when signing a big, long-term deal.

Can someone provide analysis on Mark Gasol’s defense? I know he’s a good player, but is he a solid defender?

by KeonClark on Jul 12, 2011 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Again

Your examples rely on us having Dally, a lane clogging center with the athleticism to go out and guard a good power forward. At the moment we don’t have that on our roster.

It comes down to reality
And it's fine with me 'cause I've let it slide

by SavageBeast on Jul 11, 2011 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Point being, of course...

That a player like Sammy D is what we need; a defensive minded front-court player that can cover the best front-court player of the opposing team. Which is why David West would not work alongside Cousins. I merely use Samuel Dalembert as the pairing we had last year. Chandler and Nene might also work well. Gasol would not, in all likelihood.

Look at the concept, not the example.

I cannot agree with those who rank modesty among the virtues. To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are, and to underestimate one’s self is as much a departure from truth as to exaggerate one’s own powers.
--Holmes, on Modesty

by Donovan Jeska on Jul 11, 2011 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry, I don't see how you can know all about Cousins after one season.

Defensively, I thought he was banging with the best of them late in the season. Where he had trouble was being the primary scorer starting away from the basket, which is why I believe someone like West is going to take the pressure off his offensive game.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jul 11, 2011 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Much respect, HighTops

But I don’t think Cousins will be the defensive stopper you expect him to be; at least not right away. He needs someone to usher him into that role, IE Sammy D, Nene, or Chandler. All we do know about Cousins is what we saw last season—you can’t expect him to make a gigantic leap from mediocre defender to shot-blocking maestro, lock down post defender in one off-season, can you?

I cannot agree with those who rank modesty among the virtues. To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are, and to underestimate one’s self is as much a departure from truth as to exaggerate one’s own powers.
--Holmes, on Modesty

by Donovan Jeska on Jul 12, 2011 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who ushered in Sammy D, Nene or Chandler?

And, my point isn’t that he would become all the things you mentioned in one off-season. My point is that he will never become any of those if he isn’t allowed to play his natural position.

Although I doubt that Cousins will ever lead the league in shotblocking.

Tyreke will not be a all-star, nor Cousins, nor Thornton, nor Jimmer THIS SEASON. Pardon my Caps but I didn’t want to be misunderstood. Until 3-4 of them are close to that caliber of player, we are still a team rebuilding thru the draft. And, adding one star player that takes Playing Time away from those players, hurts our future.

Yes, add some experience and talent to the other positions as starters. Add talent at backups for their positions, to improve the win totals and help us make it to the playoffs. But our best chance of a Championship run lies with 3 of them developing into stars, and not tying up a position with a big money contract over the next 4-5 years on one big FA.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jul 12, 2011 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Correct on Sammy's D, but he thinks he can play offense

What makes Chandler better, is that he is completely aware of himself, strengths and weaknesses, and does not try to do anything out of his skill set.

We all know you cannot say the same for Sammy.

by KeonClark on Jul 12, 2011 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

I like Chandler much better.

I cannot agree with those who rank modesty among the virtues. To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are, and to underestimate one’s self is as much a departure from truth as to exaggerate one’s own powers.
--Holmes, on Modesty

by Donovan Jeska on Jul 12, 2011 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't remember Sammy coming here with a rep for offense

Yes, he was in a contract year and may have felt he needed to show some. But, Sammy also played all but 2 games last season and didn’t miss any games in the prior 4 years. Sammy averaged one shot every 4 minutes played and Chandler one shot every 5 minutes played over the last 5 season. So, it doesn’t look like either is an offensive dynamo.

So, yes he took more shots than Chandler but without a PG to set him up, Chandler is an incompetent offensive players. And, only took 190 shots in 51 games after being traded to Charlotte.

The problem with Dalemberts shot wasn’t that he took 102 from 10-15 ft and shot 48%, or 58% at the rim. It was that he took 110 from long jumpers and shot 38% which is the exact same percentage he shot the last two seasons in Philly only twice as many shots.

Of course the team is different, so let’s look at the other Sac Bigs.
Sam 38% on 110 long 2’s
DMC 37% on 265 long 2’s
Landry 34% on 158 long 2’s in only 53 games
JT 35% on 141 long 2’s
Jackson 41% on 49 long 2’s in 59 games

So, maybe Sam just got with a program that makes poor use of their bigs.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jul 12, 2011 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I remember that too.

Ive seen some videos of him shooting from all over the floor. He’s a smart player, found his niche, and is getting a hefty check for it.

by Crocoduck on Jul 13, 2011 8:13 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Don't think to much into what their "true" positions are.

I think it’s a waste of time. DMC and Sam D played effectively together, despite both being labeled as centers. JT was arguably more productive playing center last season despite being labeled as a PF. It doesn’t matter as long as your combination provides a balance of offense and defense.

by Crocoduck on Jul 11, 2011 12:10 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

That's fine as long as you have Dally

But without him, you have three guys who are not defensive stoppers. I guess you would start JJ and Cuz, but neither of them is going to stop a nene without getting into serious foul trouble. Then you bring in JT and he and JJ are not a great front two. I firmly believe that if the Kings don’t sign a talented 4 or 5, you are not going to have the balance you are talking about. I don’t care if you call them centers, power forwards, or chainsaw juggling penguins, they still have to be able to score and guard the other team’s front line.

It comes down to reality
And it's fine with me 'cause I've let it slide

by SavageBeast on Jul 11, 2011 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Were on the same page here.

That’s why I think a defensive big man should be our number one target this off season.

by Crocoduck on Jul 11, 2011 2:12 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Agreed

I would prefer a defensive center. But like I said below, if you could give someone of David West’s caliber, I would be willing to do it, just because they would be so hard for opposing teams to guard.

It comes down to reality
And it's fine with me 'cause I've let it slide

by SavageBeast on Jul 11, 2011 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Championships aren't won...

…with offense. There’s no such thing as an unguardable offense.

I cannot agree with those who rank modesty among the virtues. To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are, and to underestimate one’s self is as much a departure from truth as to exaggerate one’s own powers.
--Holmes, on Modesty

by Donovan Jeska on Jul 11, 2011 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let's make it to the playoffs before we start worrying about Championships

Tyreke and Cousins are our core, so we better start teaching them to play defense instead of bringing in role players to fill skills that they don’t have yet.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jul 11, 2011 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

well then

you didn’t watch the finals. Because that Finals MVP was unguardable. Times are changing, and perimeter defenders are rapidly becoming just as, if not more, valuable than defensive big men.

Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."

by Ellimist on Jul 11, 2011 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dirk always has been.

His team isn’t. Unguardable Offense, meaning a team offense.

I cannot agree with those who rank modesty among the virtues. To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are, and to underestimate one’s self is as much a departure from truth as to exaggerate one’s own powers.
--Holmes, on Modesty

by Donovan Jeska on Jul 12, 2011 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

"Defense wins championships" is a mindless axiom perpetuated by coaches to get their players to focus on the less fun side of the court

Offense and defense are equally important, and championship teams are usually elite on both sides of the ball. Interestingly enough, the most recent exception was this year’s Dallas Mavericks, who were an elite offense in the playoffs but only played above average defense.

by Charlieb on Jul 12, 2011 4:43 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I always told the kids I coached

Offense is fun, defense is work. If you want to have fun you are going to have to work to get on the court.

As a result of the NBA going dark and staging a lockout I plan on saying only depressing things until the season starts. If they put out the schedule I plan to also go and sit in the Arco parking lot on nights games would have been played. I will Tivo CSN on games nights. They can't stop me. Its my team and I'll cry if I want to, cry if I want to.

by ElRonToro on Jul 12, 2011 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

How does that work when they respond with

“ga ga goo goo where my orange slices?”

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jul 15, 2011 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not sure if I am going to express this how I want

but I don’t get too excited about a ton of depth on a non playoff winning team which is what I see with this team right now. A lot of “meh” options.

by wallywagon11 on Jul 11, 2011 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great write up

I would actually be ok with not spending any money. I don’t like the FA class at all. Not worth spending our money on marginal upgrades. After GP’s moves so far I am keen to watch another half year of development and see where we are at at the trade deadline.

A brief comparison between Mormonism and Historic Christianity
http://carm.org/comparison-between-christian-doctrine-and-mormon-doctrine

A former atheist's (me) appeal: Creation Science
http://creation.com/creation-answers

by sac_faithful on Jul 11, 2011 9:58 AM PDT reply actions  

Gasol, Nene are marginal upgrades?

I disagree.

"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower

by lietothegirls on Jul 11, 2011 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think that Gasol at center is a marginal upgrade over Cousins

and maybe not even an upgrade depending on who’s playing next to him. Would Cousins look better with Randolph as his teammate?

Nene is a different story all together, but based on the rumors about how much he’ll be asking for, I don’t see him as a better value a year or two down the road. Right now I’m more interested in the players that would be the best fit with who we already have.

We’ve talked about the rebuild and building thru the draft. And, we’ve used the 2nd highest draft choice we’ve had since Billy Owens in 91 to draft a Center. And, now all of a sudden after one season, we’re going to spend big long term money on a FA center. Long term I’ve got to believe that Cousins in our Center of the Future, which makes finding him a reliable starting PF is the next task at hand.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jul 11, 2011 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

logical and rec'd

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jul 11, 2011 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Respectfully disagree

I haven’t seen anything in DeMarcus’s game that idicates that he’s better at one position or the other. Defensively I think that we need a strong post defender to pair with him, whether that’s a Center or a PF, I actually don’t really care. But I don’t think that a player like David West is the answer because I can’t see either guy providing decent defense on the really dangerous post men in the league. I think West is great when paired with Okafor, and DeMarcus can be great when paired with Dalembert. But I think Okafor/Dalembert would be miserably inneffective on offense and DMC/West would be insufficient defensively.

Like I said, I don’t care if it’s a PF or center, I just think that with Chandler and Dalembert available, the Kings should pursue them. That would effectively make DMC our PF of the future, which I think he’s totally capable of, but that’s not the point of the argument. The point is that I think he needs to be paired with a defender. I don’t see any premier defending power forwards that I like, so let’s go center.

by Grantnapeareatskittens on Jul 11, 2011 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Might only disagreement here would be

that I think IF you could get West (and that’s a bigger IF than Gasol or Nene in my opinion) his offense combines with Cousins’ would be so potent you could live with slightly less D. I mean now they need to front court players who could stop Cuz and West. I can’t think any any team that has that, with the possible exception of last year’s Mavs.

It comes down to reality
And it's fine with me 'cause I've let it slide

by SavageBeast on Jul 11, 2011 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Slightly less D is a bit of an understatement.

You’re right though, they would score a lot of points if they all decided to share the ball. Crunch time would be VERY hard to watch when all we need is a stop…

by Crocoduck on Jul 12, 2011 8:54 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I haven’t seen anything in DeMarcus’s game that idicates that he’s better at one position or the other.
Unfortunately, this is true because he did not do, last season, what he’s supposed to do – bang down low over and over and over and ove randoverovanavdoveroadnadvoernadvneor!

Once he cuts out the tendancy to pop those 18 footers, we’ll all see him as the C he truly is. It’s nice that he has that ability, but i don’t need to be reminded every other possession.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jul 11, 2011 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agree Cousins took too many jumpers last season...

however, I think his ability to hit that jumper is part of what is going to make him an elite big in this league. When he can hit that shot reliably, it forces the defense to be honest. Instead of sagging off of him to play the passing lanes or wait for him to drive, the defender has to be up on him letting him use his quickness and great footwork to beat his man, or give him the opening to make the great passes we all know he’s capable of.

Just like our backcourt, where Tyreke isn’t really a 1 or a 2, he’s just a guard, I don’t see DMC as a 4 or a 5, he’s just a big. I agree that we need to pair him with a defensive specialist, and let him guard the weaker offensive option on the opposing team.

The devil is dryhumping the details - Tom Ziller

by rpmonkey on Jul 12, 2011 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Definitely

Pulling less mobile bigs away from the hoop is smart strategy. Other centers are too slow to guard him 15 to 18 feet from the hoop. It doesn’t mean Cousins has to settle for jumper, though. He can still look to drive, draw fouls and set up teammates. It is not taking the jumper that is the problem, as people around here want to contend, it is more about improving decision-making and efficiency when Cousins is in that position.

Sticking him in the post exclusively as it does not maximize his talents.

"The Spurs subliment their statistics for the good of the team" Kings Coach PW.

by bench_blob on Jul 12, 2011 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Strong Post Defender is what we expected from Dalembert

But last season the Kings gave up the highest shooting percentage in the league at the rim, 70%. And, we gave up the 7th highest number of Made Baskets at the Rim. So much for having a post defender, when the rest of the defense sucks.

And, if DeMarcus is such a horrible defender, that we need another Center to replace Dalembert, than where exactly is the Upgrade?

With Tyreke out, Westphal put the scoring burdon on another one of his rookies. And, Cousins killed himself trying to be the main scorer on a bad team. I say give him a scoring PF who can rebound, and let DeMarcus expend all his energy on Defense and Rebounding. Between his offensive rebounds and some deep passes into the paint he’s going to get his points without all the turnovers and fouls. And, with that big wide body and long reach, he’s going to be a great man defender.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jul 11, 2011 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think we just see DeMarcus differently

You said in an earlier comment that he was banging down low on defense pretty admirably as the season wore on. I didn’t really see that myself. I know that he tried to do too much on offense, but with better ball-handling at the SF (Salmons is a better ball-handler and shot-creator than our other options, regardless of his flaws), a full season of Marcus and Jimmer alongside Tyreke, and the addition of JJ, I don’t think he should be doing so much on offense that he’ll need another signing to help take the pressure off. But with his crazy high foul rate, I do feel that he could use someone to take the pressure off defensively.

To your other point, we were bad defending the rim last year, but do you really think that will improve WITHOUT Dalembert? I think that advanced stats fall short sometimes, and here is a case. The Kings added Sammy and ended up last in the league at guarding the rim, but can we really look at that stat and assume that Sammy didn’t do his job or wasn’t as good as advertised? I think that Sammy is a top-ten defensive post man, probably higher. I doubt that many on here would disagree with me.

For the record, I don’t think that the Kings will end up with another quality big by season’s start. And I really really hope that you’re right and that DMC can produce quality defense at the center position, I just doubt it. I really like our 2011-2012 squad with Dalembert at the center, and would REALLY like it with Chandler manning the middle. DeMarcus and JJ as our starters, or even DeMarcus and West? Not so much. I think that defense, good or bad, is infectious. Ron Artest made the entire team better at defense when he arrived. Guys that don’t try to rotate and lock down as they should can have the opposite effect. If you pair DMC up with another shooting big, they’re just going to compete to see who can put the most shots up, IMO.

by Grantnapeareatskittens on Jul 11, 2011 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

How do you justify...

Showing the kings gave up the highest % at the rim, and trying to remedy it by essentially removing a post defender and adding a scorer? I think hoping DMC becomes primarily a defender and rebounder, which i doubt he’d be happy with, is a stretch from what we saw last year from the foul machine (not that he won’t improve defensively over the years and he already is a very good rebounder). I highly doubt the kings drafted him to be a garbage point guy or because they thought he’d be a great defender.

by Crocoduck on Jul 12, 2011 8:47 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Because when your exterior defense is a sieve, a post defender isn't the answer.

Certainly as a final defensive line of a good defense a shot blocker is nice to have. And, I am not one of those in favor of not bringing back Dalembert.

What I’m not in favor of is signing one of the other FA centers to a long term big dollar contract which is going to take minutes away from Cousins at center. And, while DeMarcus isn’t known as a weakside shot blocker, he does do a great job of giving help defense by taking charges.

And, while West isn’t my first choice in backcourt mate for Cousins, I think he can take the pressure of having to score off of Cousins. Let him expend all of his energy on defense and rebounding. Cousins still hasn’t developed his NBA game. And, right now, I’d rather see him dominate the defensive boards and work on not giving up good inside post position. And, once that’s accomplished, he’ll dominate on both ends of the court.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jul 12, 2011 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure I see a team that has the $ to sign Nene for what he wants

or thinks he can get. Denver might have to do a sign and trade if they feel they can’t keep him. A straight FA signing? Is there anyone beside ourselves and Minnie that can take on 13-15 mil?

"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower

by lietothegirls on Jul 11, 2011 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also

Lose 10 -15lbs and I think DMC’s game could easily be considered as much a PF skill set as anything. It’s his current and future ability to defend 4s that makes all the difference.

Can we count on him losing it and keeping it off? Big question. Is there a better defensive minded PF out there to match him with if we keep him at C?

"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower

by lietothegirls on Jul 11, 2011 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe Indy or NJ will try to obtain Nene's services. They have the space.

"the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars" — Jack Kerouac

by Normdog on Jul 11, 2011 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

the thing is

I think Nene would be more than capable playing the 4 next to cousins. Honestly, I thought he’s been playing out of position in Denver ever since they traded Camby.

Phil Jackson, after treatment for a kidney stone "When the anesthesiologist leaned over me, he said "We named your kidney stone Kobe because it's not passing."

by Ellimist on Jul 11, 2011 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't care for Gasol

but I like me some Nene. However, I was speaking as though we will resign Sammy without stating so. In that sense I think Gasol is lateral movement on both sides of the ball and Nene would be an offensive upgrade but a lateral move defensively. More so effecting my opinion is that Nene will in all likelihood get a max deal and I don’t think he is worth it.

A brief comparison between Mormonism and Historic Christianity
http://carm.org/comparison-between-christian-doctrine-and-mormon-doctrine

A former atheist's (me) appeal: Creation Science
http://creation.com/creation-answers

by sac_faithful on Jul 11, 2011 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Even though we have money,

I don’t think we’re in the market for Nene, Gasol or Chandler. That being said, Dalembert should be our 1st FA priority(after re-signing Thornton). But if he decides to go to a contender, DeAndre Jordan and Chuck Hayes are who GP should be looking at. If we want a shot blocker, get Jordan. If we want a good low post defender, get Hayes. But Hayes would be cheaper, knows his role and brings the intangibles.

by jumpboi on Jul 11, 2011 2:52 PM PDT reply actions  

I would love to acquire Chandler, Nene, or Gasol

And the Kings should have all of them in mind. What if we strike out against all of them? I don’t care for Jordan. He just rubs me as a guy who will get his payday & coast until his next deal is almost here.

What about Tyrus Thomas? His skill set is perfect but I don’t know about putting a perceived knuckle head with another perceived KH. Damn I hate when guys are talented but just don’t get what they are wasting.

I love beating dead horses.

by allbenji's on Jul 11, 2011 2:55 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

Speaking of Jordan

He just reminded me of Eric Dampier. Doesn’t he remind you a little of him? Physically & mentally.

I love beating dead horses.

by allbenji's on Jul 11, 2011 2:57 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I have the same worry/feeling about Jordan

based on what? Not completely sure, personality I guess.

"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower

by lietothegirls on Jul 11, 2011 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Another thing I was thinking about is trading for Kevin Garnett

He would be perfect for DMC and at 35 years old, be our best defensive big. I think Boston might start a youth movement pretty soon, right when the NBA hands them Austin Rivers. KG would be a better leader than Salmons. And who knows, maybe he would put PW in his place when he tries to play JT at SF again lol.

by jumpboi on Jul 11, 2011 3:02 PM PDT reply actions  

I read an Article on them

the other day, saying that Doc is prepping his vets for what is, in all likelihood, one last run at a chip. Doc’s been a pretty straight shooter in the media historically, so I wouldn’t anticipate any of their big 3 being available until after next season. Despite the fact that Garnett has more miles than grandma’s Bonneville, and the fact that I truly can’t stand him, it’s really not a terrible idea. I think I just threw up….

...Watching DeMarcus Cousins’ transformation from large human to immortal kill beast...

by Sacto_J on Jul 11, 2011 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

JT v. JJ

If advanced stats were the end-all, be-all to adequately compare players, and as predictors of future output, statisticians would make the best GMs, not former players like Geoff Petrie with shrewd eye for less perceptible variables than USG% and TS%. Nothing against your resources, I use them too, but credible evaluation of players should be based upon more than visit to advancedstats.com

Breakdown all the stats you want, but JJ is just a better basketball player than JT. Way better. If and when there is a season, this will be proven without a shred of doubt.

JJ Hickson has fundamental skills of catching and finishing, using savvy, touch, footwork and explosiveness around the hoop. The difference between the two players is that one player possesses this ability while the other does not. When it comes to skill you most want in a PF, that’s a pretty stark distinction. Over the course of a game with same opportunity (USG), that’s 15 points vs. 6 points. That’s 20 points vs. 12 points. That’s winning vs. losing. That’s not similar!

So, in my estimation, similar players.

No. And…

But did anybody notice JT just crank it up towards the end of the season?

Not really.

He may have benefitted from the fact that teams show him zero attention or respect to his game, and deservedly so. To his credit, I think he was genuinely instrumental to helping the team win about one game last year, and that was vs. the Magic.

The other 81 games besides his one shining beckon of contribution? Meh.

I made it a point to watch closely and analyze JJ Hickson, Javale McGee and Serge Ibaka in particular beginning of last season and end of prior season, out of curiosity of what might have been regarding 2008 draft. (If memory serves, these players went 17th, 18th and 21st vs. JT at 12th.) I had continuous debates around here regarding the merits of JT as a player. I claimed repeatedly he is not a viable starter, reliable contributor, or feasible component of a winning team.

And performance after three years has confirmed all of the above. JT is a fundamental challenged, and emotionally stunted individual. Check out his Twitter feed and you would think he is 25 years old going on 13 years old. I know Twitter is not an outpost for intellectual discourse, but he makes Lil Wayne seem like T.S. Eliott. He certainly lives up to his nickname, The Kid.

I don’t mean this as a personal affront to the guy, but this is the truth. In my mind his immaturity and psychological profile explains a lot of the stagnation we have witnessed to his game.

These are the facts:

JT has athleticism and size and he tries hard. He can rebound and defend his man in the post. Besides that, he is not very good. And what he can do is highly replaceable (see a healthy Hasaan Whiteside). JT is a perennial back-up and fringe rotation player at best, and not necessarily on a good team. He is clearly a disappointment relative to where he was selected. Petrie’s attempt to ship him out for unproven Jeff Teague a year ago demonstrated as much.

I would go as far to say JT is among the worst Sacramento Kings player in franchise history with regards to minutes played. He has logged a ton of court time to underwhelming results, individually and as one of the least contributors to bad teams. He is the sole individual on three teams (08-09, 09-10, and 10-11) that won 66 and lost 180 (27% win percentage). That is the worst record in the NBA over that time span.

Go ahead and say it is not his fault, but don’t say he helped any.

Persistent foul trouble, lack of post game, inability to finish at the hoop, inability to make simple reads (running over clearly set defenders, unable to keep arms vertical on defense) are chronic issues despite plenty of opportunity to adjust, learn and grow.

As a four-year college starter, shaky mental makeup, and having logged 6400 NBA minutes, is it realistic to think he is going to all of the sudden ‘figure it out’?

If Geoff was willing to relinquish Omri and his untapped potential after two seasons, and his steadiest performer in Beno, then finding a willing taker is all that precludes trading JT. Until then, the company line will be can be integral part of future.

I would place the odds at 50/50 if the Kings can sign Chandler, Nene or AK-47 (forget about Marc Gasol, will never happen!), and offer S&T to foregoing team. JT could be moved for second round pick or minimal future considerations to lessen cap strain of our new signee.

I do appreciate the structure and detail to your fan post and give it a rec for the effort. But you glossed over the fact that JJ Hickson is two years younger. This is important. JJ will turn just 23 years old a few months after JT turns 25 years. JT has played almost 1800 more NBA minutes. The combination of age, experience and statistical trajectory is the difference between a finished product and an emerging one.

The Kings willingness to give up Omri and a future #1 pick shows the esteem with which they hold JJ as a player. If you are to believe at all in Geoff ability as a talent evaluator, it would be contradictory to forecast JT and JJ as similar players.

Last year, JJ Hickson proclaimed he is the best PF in the NBA. You will not hear those words out of JTs mouth, partly because it is so far from the truth it would not even enter the realm of his conscious. And partly because coming out of a small school like Rider, he is largely happy just to be in the NBA. Everything else is gravy.

JJ wants more. He wants to prove more. Now you could say this is unwarranted delusional egotism talking, but I love this attitude, as long as it does not lead to selfish playing style.

The first step to being great is thinking that you are great, or at least the feeling that you can become great. Before you can accomplish anything special, you have to hold a vision of being special. JT holds visions of finding one referee in the universe not out to get him. JJ holds the vision of multiple All Star appearances.

I am being snarky to make a point, which is a players level of self-belief, and lack thereof, is not quantified at hoopdata.com, yet matters so much prospectively when the talent exists to back up the bravado. I look forward to the end of the lockout before the turn of the decade, JJ vs. JT, and the unfolding of aforementioned expectations.

"The Spurs subliment their statistics for the good of the team" Kings Coach PW.

by bench_blob on Jul 12, 2011 10:02 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Mobile rec

Although I wish it wasn’t true. I want JT to succeed so bad, but it just never happens. However, he is an acceptable defender and will always have a place in this league. Not what we expected at 12, but at least he’s not a washout (some will argue this may have been the more ideal situation).

by Mityt on Jul 12, 2011 11:17 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I continuously offer Kings analysis...

and insight not based on popular consensus or with consideration as to how it will be received. I don’t care what you or other people think if it does not mesh what I can observe with my own eyes, or if it results in harsh criticism of a Kings player. I am a passionate and devoted Kings fans but that does not prevent me from calling like I see it.

In my estimation JT acts like a teenager and this has stunted his development. Interviews and playing style (lack of poise, emotionally reactive) reveals this. His twitter account offers further evidence.

Regardless, you like to sit back and deconstruct what I have to say. You respond to me personally. Not the other way around. I don’t know you and make no presumptions about your character. You look to chip away and selectively sift through my posts whenever you have the chance. Not vice versa.

Instead of defending JT, you point your finger at me. Who has a hard-on for who?

Unless I am missing something, and I apologize in advance because I don’t pay particular mind to your every post like you do mine, you offer little in terms of original or compelling content.

Meanwhile, I am constructive, creative, insightful and compelling with a track record of accuracy. When it comes to knowing about the Kings and NBA basketball, I think I am fairly bad-ass. Its not bragging if you can back it up.

I have called the Kings draft pick two years in a row. Along with this and elsewhere, no one around here can match my record of accuracy.

2010 NBA Draft
2011 NBA Draft

If trusting in my own judgment and not being afraid to express it in the face of backlash from you and others means I have emotional problems, sign me up.

"The Spurs subliment their statistics for the good of the team" Kings Coach PW.

by bench_blob on Jul 13, 2011 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jul 13, 2011 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions   4 recs

tl;dr version

While I agree you do offer relevant and interesting information, some of us here (I can only speak for myself, but I assume there are others) might focus on your weird issue with JT, rather than the larger point you’re trying to make.

Is that the reader’s problem, or yours? If the answer is anything other than “both” or “bench_blob”, then there’s really no point in arguing about it further IMHO.

"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11

by otis29 on Jul 13, 2011 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Blob I enjoy your posts.

But many here have called last two draft picks. Heck I did. And didn’t you also predict Nate Robinson as a King? Look, you had a novel about how horrible JT is, and I’d venture to say almost everyone disagrees. No big deal, but your post clearly showed it’s more than a unbiased analysis, you have random man hate for the guy. No biggie, most of us randomly hate someone. I wouldn’t take such offense.

Can't wait for October

by KingsFanInPortland on Jul 13, 2011 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yep -

Fredette/Honeycutt/I.Thomas is the most impressive display of prognostication ever seen here at StR. Everyone else is just posing.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jul 15, 2011 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Sigh

A river of good information lost in a sea of JT hate.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jul 12, 2011 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

Exactly.

Also, the Kirilenko people need to realize that he’s not the player they think he is—even when he’s healthy.

m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!

by JediLeroy on Jul 12, 2011 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

That's right!

How dare he have an opinion which differs from the group?

The key to any game is to use your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
-Paul Westphal

by Slam_Dunk on Jul 15, 2011 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's quite the nuanced rebuttal!

"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11

by otis29 on Jul 15, 2011 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jul 15, 2011 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

While JJ has the ability, and may already be better (haven't watched enough to say)

Your analysis of JT is outta left field. He is nowhere near one of the worst Kings ever, and played very well at end of the year when Landry was gone. He has decent shot, is good rebounder and is a quality 3rd big that almost any team would love to have. It sounds like YOU have the random man hate for him, because I don’t think that was an objective opinion at all. However I agree whole heartedly with your first paragraph.

Can't wait for October

by KingsFanInPortland on Jul 12, 2011 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

You say JJ wants more

but he is the one who is accused frequently of motor issues, a charge that has never been leveled at JT. This seems to imply JJ wants to be more but hasn’t matured enough yet to do it the entire time he is on the court. He has also been accused of having no interest in defense, again not a sign of someone who wants more.
I have not watched him enough to have any idea of him other than he is really athletic, but from the way he has been described he may be more interested in stats than working for greatness. They say he has matured, we shall see.

As a result of the NBA going dark and staging a lockout I plan on saying only depressing things until the season starts. If they put out the schedule I plan to also go and sit in the Arco parking lot on nights games would have been played. I will Tivo CSN on games nights. They can't stop me. Its my team and I'll cry if I want to, cry if I want to.

by ElRonToro on Jul 12, 2011 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

It's pretty interesting

Not that I trust Cleveland’s judgement when it comes to talent, but doesn’t it seem weird that a team looking to rebuild gives up on this young guy who had a monster second half of the season – and reaches on a player at the #4 spot in the draft to replace him?

"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11

by otis29 on Jul 12, 2011 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's a good point Otis.

I thought about it too, and the only way I can justify it is by thinking they honestly feel Thompson can be a better fit in the long run. The jury is still out on Omri, but he’s young and can do some nice things, so they probably feel like he will be a solid guy at the 3 to grow with their other young guys. A mid, or hopefully late, first round pick in what I hear is going to be a decent draft never hurts either. Or JJ could be a headcase and gave them fits so they dumped him for what they could…

by Crocoduck on Jul 13, 2011 8:25 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Eh

could justify it also with the belief that Thompson should not be getting anywhere near starter minutes and there is a log jam at SF so let’s go get a better powerforward option.

by wallywagon11 on Jul 13, 2011 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wally, I was trying to justify why the cavs made the trade, not the kings.

I think Thompson confused you, but I was talking about Tristan not Jason.

by Crocoduck on Jul 13, 2011 1:17 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Aye, trying to figure this out from the Cavs point of view

I’m not a big believer generally in the “why are X team trading the guy if he’s any good?” arguments, because there are usually shades of gray involved – different positions, significant difference of age, salary cap issues, etc. But most of these don’t apply to the Cavs in regards to Tristan Thompson vs. JJ Hickson.

"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11

by otis29 on Jul 13, 2011 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

its not easy for a 22-year old to have a motor that can withstand an 82-game season, especially

when they’re a main focal point on a 19-63 team. i think hickson comes off the bench, so his “motor” doesn’t become an issue. this all in consideration that we grab that top front court talent through FA that gavin says we will. i think our front court is looking great. our whole TEAM is looking great, actually.

by D00M on Jul 13, 2011 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

I find it interesting

That many of your arguments stem from the point that “Geoff decided to do this, so it must be a good move” when Geoff was the guy that selected JT 12th out of Rider. The player that you carry so much vitriol for that it makes it a little difficult for me to sift through your post.

I love your fanposts and most of your comments, and actually I value your take on JJ, as you have clearly watched him play more than I have. However, the level to which you dislike JT’s game, and seemingly, JT as a person is alarming. When I said that he cranked it up towards the end of the season, it’s because he did. I wrote that first sentence based on what I had seen with my own eyes BEFORE looking up the stats to see that he shot over 60% from the floor down the stretch.

We’ve all got biases, but I feel like you might be blinded by this one.

by Grantnapeareatskittens on Jul 13, 2011 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

Fair enough

Regarding Geoff Petrie, I lean on the side of giving him the benefit of the doubt with trades and player transactions, because the majority of his moves have proved prudent. But if he had to do over again he would not have selected JT. And yet there is a consensus around here that JT is a valuable component as third big. And I feel that is far from the reality. If a player is not clearly part of the solution, he is part of the problem.

I have spoke about this before regarding how I like to supplement my analysis of big men with simple Eye Ball Test. In addition to stats and other variables, it is partly how I reach my conclusion on frontline players I ask myself the simple question:

Does this dude look like a tall guy who was probably told once upon the time to play basketball by friends and coaches because he was head and shoulders height above his peers (bad), or is dude a flat-out baller who happens to be tall (good)? It is not a full proof system of course (since intangibles like work ethic and physicality etc need to be considered) but its an effective starting point nonetheless.

Anyway this is the basis of my dislike for the game of JT. Nothing more, nothing less.

Does Player X look like a basketball player who happens to be tall? Or, on the other hand, does Player X happen to be tall while trying to play basketball?

Observe and place Player X in first category (good) or second category (bad) and you have the difference between a baller and a wanna-be. More specifically, it is an issue of agility, coordination, body balance, and basic fundamentals that separate the two groups.

Examples: Vlade Divac, basketball player who happened to be tall. (good) Big Cuz definitely gives impression of basketball player who happens to be really big (good). From what I have seen of JJ Hickson, and I probably saw him 10 to 20 games last year, he fits here too.

On the other hand, a couple of our bigs don’t make the cut: JT and Sammy look like big dudes trying to play basketball. The game does not come as easy to them. I think we will see the distinction next season in contrast of JJ to JT (if he is still around). JJ is a fluid player with instincts of where to be and what to do. JT is more of a mechanical player thinking his way through plays, ie. a tall guy trying to play basketball. Sammy is same, more or less, with the deficiencies outline above, but this basic distinction is the source of my opinion on him.

I give Petrie credit for acknowledging that JT has not panned out as hoped. He could have as easily clinged to the hope JT will surpass the level of skill and production of those selected after him, including those same-positioned players above and Roy Hibbert.

A more stubborn GM would not have pulled the trigger on this trade. Doing so is an admission that the PF position needs upgrade and JT is not the answer.

It does not bother me that others disagree, want to think I am arrogant and full of myself. If they want to mistake confidence with arrogance, its inconsequential and mildly amusing. It does bother me slightly that there is a lack of disparate point of views at StR that can be expressed freely, that there is a clique mentality, and that I am labeled a hater. Pesonal attacks are allowed by the moderators if they have same level of animosity towards poster. This is mildly discouraging to me.

I have no hate for anybody.

God bless JT, his family his health and best of luck to him in his future with the Kings or any other team. I hope he proves me wrong and transforms himself into a low post force and indispensable component of a winning team. Every year is a new year. Everyone deserves a fresh start, except Casey Anthony. We all have the opportunity to redefine ourselves, learn from our experience, and perform to a superior level in our chosen field.

I just echoed the exact words I said last season, minus Tot Mom murder reference, prior to forecasting JT would put up 7 points and 5 rebounds. The upgraded front court (with Cousins and Sammy) I felt would reduce his minutes and his total inability to define an offensive game would make him a negligible option in play sets. And this is exactly what happened. His minutes declined from 31 minutes to 23 minutes, and basically JT became a garbage pail type player.

So I was right before and I expect to be right again, and yet I am labeled as a hater? Logic fail.

My 7/5 prediction was met with scorn and disapproval. But that was cool. I do not mind disagreement or debate. I welcome it. It makes for fun and added intrigue to the season.

As it played out the first 2/3rd of the season his exact averages were 7 points and 5 rebounds. So my analysis had merit. Only did he clean up his stats with a stronger stretch run to finish at 9 and 6, yet well off his previous averages of 12 and 8.

The point is my evaluation of JT was based on an objective analysis to the best of my ability, not some sort of obsessive lingering contempt I have for him to fail. That is ludicrous and insulting. Frankly I am too evolved of an individual to waste my energy in such regard.

Your assertion that he “cranked it up” is fair if you want to do a relative comparison. JT did experience a prolonged slump he had for about 30 to 40 games in the middle of the season. I only contested your opinion because my idea of cranking it up would be more along the lines of Cousins putting up 20+/10 for a late season stretch. Maybe it is just a matter of semantics.

A player cranks it up to me when he becomes an integral part of a teams offensive and defensive focus. He becomes vital component to outcome of games. He asserts his edge and will with consistency. I didn’t see this. JT feasted on crumbs and leftovers. He was not invited to the adult dinner table.

Anyway, I think your post was well done despite my disagreements. Keep up the good work. We need more contributors like you.

"The Spurs subliment their statistics for the good of the team" Kings Coach PW.

by bench_blob on Jul 13, 2011 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is a lot I agree with here yet at the same time a lot I don't agree with

This really isn’t that big a deal but I think for most people going into analysis about someone being emotionally stunted because of twitter yet someone is virtuous for saying they are the best in the league at a position when unproven reeks of bias and comes off odd.

At the same time, you are right, the hater stuff is kind of pointless (although i don’t see anyone call you a hater I can at least understand why you are defensive on it) and yeah you are just trying to express your opinions which is totally fine. Personally I just thought the psycho analysis stuff was a bit silly and hallow is all.

by wallywagon11 on Jul 13, 2011 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Pesonal attacks are allowed by the moderators if they have same level of animosity towards poster. This is mildly discouraging to me.

Have you flagged the posts that you consider personal attacks? If so, are you sure the offending parties haven’t been warned, suspended or banned?

"Grant is a genius." - section214 - 5/17/11

by otis29 on Jul 13, 2011 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I appreciate this response.

    Well thought out and filled with less bile. After reading this, I can see better where you’re coming from, and I accept all the criticisms of my post. I think that your first critique and earlier rants regarding JT have come off, in my mind, as hateful. But I don’t really think you’re a hater, just passionate. I have an intense dislike that goes beyond what feels rational to me for several players, I think it’s just shocking that you feel that way about JT, of all people.
      I feel like I disagree with much of what is posted around here and definitely don’t consider myself part of any clique. But my guess is that most of us at StR see JT as a middling talent with a good NBA body, and a generally good attitude about the game of basketball. Does he whine too much? Sure, so does 2/3 of the league, and he doesn’t come close to DeMarcus in this category. Does he miss a bunch of chipshots around the rim? Absolutely, but he shot over 60% from the floor down the stretch while shooting more often. It could be a fluke, but I choose to believe. Is he immature in his twitter-life? 100%. However, twitter as a whole is pretty god damn immature. Tyreke driving 130 miles per hour is immature. DeMarcus getting ejected on the final game of the season is immature. Omri Casspit bitching publicly about playing time is immature. I think that the gut reaction around here is, REALLY? JT? That’s the guy that stands out? He’s the poison? He’s the guy that isn’t carrying his weight? This team has been bad for a long time. I think a lot of guys aren’t pulling their weight, so there’s plenty of finger-pointing to go around. I think it just seems weird that JT gets a huge amount of criticism from you while other players don’t. You’re just reporting what you see with your own two eyes, so I ain’t going to blast you for it, I just don’t see it myself.

     I’d also like to clarify a point I made in the post. I think JJ Hickson is a better overall player than JT. He also has a larger upside, in my opinion. However, my ideal Kings front-court would be DeMarcus at PF and free agent center X (Chandler or Dalembert) at center (I disagree with HT on this one). Then one of JJ or JT would be the primary backup, the other would be let go at season’s end, most likely. So in my eyes, as far as THIS TEAM is concerned, I think that JJ or JT will ultimately play a similar role. From what I understand of stats and reports out of Cleveland, JT is a better defender than JJ, and JJ is a better offensive player than JT, although last season JT was more efficient. (To me, efficiency >>>>>> volume). In an offense where both may see somewhat similar minutes and both might play alongside DMC, they will be secondary scorers and rebounders. In this scenario, my statistical and eyeball analysis tells me that they will be similar players.

     What it boils down to is that when I watch JT play (saw all 82 games last season and attended 12 of them personally) I see a capable NBA player that screws up sometimes and disappears sometimes. When I watch JJ (far less frequently) I see a potential superstar that often tries to do too much and takes a high number of bad shots. I haven’t decided which I prefer, but I don’t think the decision is as black and white as you say.

by Grantnapeareatskittens on Jul 13, 2011 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

Just to enhance your writing:
full proof

I think this is supposed to be “fool proof”. As in, even fools couldn’t misunderstand this.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jul 15, 2011 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

LEAVE BENCH_BLOB ALONE!!!

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jul 15, 2011 8:56 AM PDT reply actions   2 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Sactown Royalty, the best community of Sacramento Kings fans in the universe. That's not my opinion; it's scientific fact.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Kyle Lowry
Small
A Learning Experience on Loyalty For Sacramento Via Golden State
Lionel_small
#HereWeStay
Small
Francisco Garcia Wallpaper/Illustration (UofL days)
Kings_sports_illustrated_small
Funny story
Small
As I sit here and watch the OKC Thunder come back against the Lakers
Waymantisdale-tz-150_small
the owners called down the thunder
Chief_petty_officer_small
Maturity in Sacramento Debacle
Small
Ryan Anderson to the Kings - Petrie's Gotta Give It A Thought
Chief_petty_officer_small
Open letter to the Maloofs

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Editor

Loofie_small Tom Ziller

Joe_kleine_small section214

Demarcus_thornton_small Aykis16

Associate Editor

Coachie_small rbiegler

Banana2_small Exhibit G