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Start Isaiah Thomas At Point Guard? Not Just Yet

Isaiah Thomas has been lovely in the first three weeks of his NBA career, and he blew up on Wednesday as the Kings earned their first road win of the season against the Raptors. Cold Blooded had 20 points on 6-12 shooting and six assists, and the team seemed to play better when he, not Jimmer Fredette, was running the offense. The injury to Marcus Thornton has opened up some time for both Jimmer and Thomas, and has forced Tyreke Evans, the starting point guard when Thornton's healthy, over to shooting guard.

Fredette is struggling in every facet, and the team wasn't terribly successful on offense with the Evans-Thornton starting backcourt before MT's injury. Hence: a brewing call to elevate Isaiah to the starting five and move Evans to two-guard or, when Thornton's back, to small forward. But in my estimation, such a shift in Evans' role and the team's attack is premature.

First, Evans-Thornton have had just two games under Keith Smart, who led a Monta Ellis-Stephen Curry backcourt to a strong offensive season last year at Golden State. I'd prefer to see how Smart's attack with Tyreke and MT evolves before pulling the plug. This assumes, of course, that Thornton is just dinged; we'll know today whether he'll be ready for the weekend games. Going further, Evans has played four pro games under a coach not named Paul Westphal. His entire pro development (or "development") has been run under Westphal. Let's find out if Smart can get the piece into the puzzle. There's not much to lose.

Star-divide

The second part is that while Thomas' play looks more like that of a point guard, he's not appreciably more of a traditional point guard than Evans. They have nearly identical assist rates this season, and Thomas isn't much higher in per-minute assists. Further, Thomas has been prone to turnovers (a 15 percent turnover rate, vs. 12.8 percent for Reke). If you want to see whether the Kings would be better with a true point guard in the starting lineup, you need to make a roster move, because like just about every point guard that Geoff Petrie has acquired since trading Jason Williams in 2001 -- we're talking Mike Bibby, Bobby Jackson, John Salmons (who played some PG in 2007), Francisco Garcia (ditto), Quincy Douby, Bobby Brown, Ronnie Price, Jason Hart, Pooh Jeter and Beno Udrih. I'm not making a blanket judgment statement on the quality of those point guards -- Udrih, Bibby and Jackson proved to be effective, others not -- but there are, every last one, impure guards. There's one exception: Sergio Rodriguez, who the Kings borrowed from Portland, shipped out as fluff in the Landry-Martin deal and who now plays in Spain.

Again, if you want to see how the Kings fare with a traditional point guard in place of Evans, you first need the Kings to acquire a traditional point guard. Thomas isn't that. He's a damn fine pick-up in the late second round, and looks like one of the better bench guards the Kings have had since both Bonzi Wells and Kevin Martin were on the roster in 2005-06. (Rashad McCants was pretty good in 2009.) But tossing him into the fire of the starting lineup for anything other than injury replacement right now seems misguided. (On that injury replacement condition: if Thornton remains out, I think Thomas would be a fine replacement for Jimmer in the starting five, solely because Jimmer doesn't look remotely comfortable.)

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by section214 on Jan 12, 2012 10:08 AM PST reply actions  

Isaiah Thomas should start over Jimmer

But Lil’ Zeke doesn’t have 3 t-shirts the team is trying to sell like a certain overrated circus act.

Go for it all. You're a great champion.

by Muff209 on Jan 12, 2012 10:08 AM PST via mobile reply actions   1 recs

Oz maybe

US I am not so sure

35 and 31. I'm calling it now. Reke and Cousins 1-2 in most improved award both All-stars. Jimmer leads rookies in scoring, passing and Ole's. Make 2nd round of playoffs and Salmons is not here by seasons end.

by ElRonToro on Jan 12, 2012 10:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Not really

Christopher Hitchens and others would refer to Wizard of Oz when talking about North Korea (on one hand the whole small leader behind the drapes but also the whole fact that North Koreans are 3-6 inches shorter to South Koreans due to massive malnutrition and starvation).

Good times!

by wallywagon11 on Jan 12, 2012 10:45 AM PST up reply actions  

C'mon dude

I can understand if some people don’t like Jimmer, but to fault the Kings organization for having t-shirts for Jimmer? That’s ridiculous. Regardless of whether you like him or not, people like him and want merchandise. It would be stupid if the organization didn’t have him on t-shirts.

Never forget, I'm a complete idiot.

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by Exhibit G on Jan 12, 2012 10:15 AM PST up reply actions   2 recs

I don't mind that they market him

But when I look at the merch stands and he has more merch than Tyreke or DMC then they’re going overboard a bit.

Remember last year when the marketing staff when overboard with marketing Cousins and the pressure got to him a bit? I see how Jimmer is playing and I can’t help but feel like they haven’t learned anything from last year.

Go for it all. You're a great champion.

by Muff209 on Jan 12, 2012 10:33 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Not from sales #'s

What I’m saying is the team had high hopes for Jimmer and are trying to make him what they think he could be now. He’s not. The team wants him to be a marketable star and he isn’t he’s a sideshow. At games you can literally hear people buzz when he’s behind the arc and sigh/groan when he drives instead of shooting. He’s a role-player at best getting the mins of a proven sixth man.

Go for it all. You're a great champion.

by Muff209 on Jan 12, 2012 10:53 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

I don't think it's that complicated.

Can we make more money off of this kid?

Yes?

Let’s do it.

by jveezy on Jan 12, 2012 11:46 AM PST up reply actions  

You mean drafting him or forcing Smart to start him over IT?

two different things and I would argue that nomatter what guard they drafted in the first round there would be pressure to start that guard over the 60th pick nomatter how many jerseys they sell

by wallywagon11 on Jan 12, 2012 11:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Well Jimmer had WAY more attention last year.

It was CRAZY at BYU. He was taken out of school and had to finish his classes online, because student’s and TEACHERS in his classes were persistently asking for autographs throughout the lectures. All of it only seemed to make him play better.

by feelgood on Jan 12, 2012 10:39 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't think it is overboard

He’s a more marketable star. This is supported by everything we’re hearing from the team store. I don’t have a link handy, but I recall quotes from employees saying they have been stunned by the demand for his jersey and that it has been more demand than they’ve seen for anything in years.

I agree Cousins and Tyreke should be the stars that generate sales, but that’s not the reality right now.

Never forget, I'm a complete idiot.

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Author of Inside-Out Game

by Exhibit G on Jan 12, 2012 10:52 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I don't think that's fair ...

… if only because it doesn’t explain the devotion to Salmons.

by Tom Ziller on Jan 12, 2012 10:15 AM PST up reply actions  

The Kings...

…get a cut of profits from his clothing line.

Never forget, I'm a complete idiot.

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Author of Inside-Out Game

by Exhibit G on Jan 12, 2012 10:16 AM PST up reply actions  

Salmons looks disinterested out there.

I mean even for him. I thought Petrie knew something we didn’t (he’s matured into a veteran leader etc.) but he sets a terrible example.

by blknblu on Jan 12, 2012 11:26 AM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Just another of my regular requests that we start Isaiah
On that injury replacement condition: if Thornton remains out, I think Thomas would be a fine replacement for Jimmer in the starting five, solely because Jimmer doesn’t look remotely comfortable.

This has been my feeling for some time now, though I think my favorite part of IT’s game is the chemistry between him and DMC — some of those dimes last night were silver dollars.

I honestly wonder if IT might be something more special than any of us can see quite yet…only time will tell. You can’t teach height, but you also can’t teach heart.

時國王驕奢,不遵典憲。 《後漢書》
When Kings are too proud and extravagant, they do not obey the rules and regulations, and thus end up in foul trouble.
_Book_of_the_Later_Han_ (ca. 400 A.D.)

by sj60615 on Jan 12, 2012 10:18 AM PST reply actions   3 recs

Ya beat me to it, but it bears repeating again:
if Thornton remains out, I think Thomas would be a fine replacement for Jimmer in the starting five, solely because Jimmer doesn’t look remotely comfortable.

Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."

by Slam_Dunk on Jan 12, 2012 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

whats funny

Is that once IT has an off game which he will alot of people will say bench him and what were we thinking putting him ahead of JImmer. I feel like we are so quick to crown someone especially after one game. Give it time.. seriously. If IT continues to step up game after game and Jimmer doesnt then yes put him ahead of JImmer but last night was the only night were IT clearly outshined JImmer. Before last night they were pretty much identical in their play. Even if Jimmer has a night like Isaiah did and Isaiah struggles I will still say spread the minutes between them and give them time to learn. Some of you obvisouly have a bias and thats ok but to call JImmer a sideshow or a joke with no skill is a bit off and shows your bias against him especially since hes just had over ten games as a rookie.

by mmarcum on Jan 12, 2012 12:32 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I have no ill will or bias toward or against Jimmer

except that as a Kings fan I would naturally love to see Jimmer become that PG and a perennial all-star, but I just think Isaiah’s game adds aspects to our offense right now which we are sorely lacking as Jimmer is having difficulty making accurate passes at NBA speed, especially in or around the key. Though Jimmer’s shooting is awesome (I fully expect a breakout 5-5 from 3 game sometime soon) I just think IT is a better fit and creates unique problems for the other team; he seems more mature than Jimmer, and the influence of BJax teaching him how to play that position like he did may well be helping. With Tyreke at the 2 and DMC getting lots of touches thanks to IT’s nolook badass passing skills, I just think we play better, even if IT’s shooting is a net loss compared to Jimmer. Hell, we might even become a good team if we get some decent ball movement.

So far I think Jimmer may well end up at worse a very talented Kyle Korver, but I have yet to see consistent NBA-level distribution skills from him. I think we have to try to win now, break this culture of losing and try to gain a bit of confidence going forward.

時國王驕奢,不遵典憲。 《後漢書》
When Kings are too proud and extravagant, they do not obey the rules and regulations, and thus end up in foul trouble.
_Book_of_the_Later_Han_ (ca. 400 A.D.)

by sj60615 on Jan 12, 2012 7:24 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Plus everything sims and bench_blob said below, which is basically what I’m saying, only better said.

時國王驕奢,不遵典憲。 《後漢書》
When Kings are too proud and extravagant, they do not obey the rules and regulations, and thus end up in foul trouble.
_Book_of_the_Later_Han_ (ca. 400 A.D.)

by sj60615 on Jan 12, 2012 7:33 PM PST up reply actions  

I pretty much agree

I guess what I’m saying is its just to early to know for sure if Isaiah can keep producing like this with it only being one game. I hope he can. But until that’s a consistent theme we keep giving them both minutes but moreso to Isaiah with his performance. But with that said I still have hope for jimmer and potentially I feel he may have a higher ceiling than isaiah.But then again I do have a bias as well. Oh and when I was referring to being biased against him I was referring to someone else’s earlier comments above.I think your comments are fair and balanced.

by mmarcum on Jan 12, 2012 9:23 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

IT should start not because Tyreke shouldn't play PG.....

But because we don’t have a SF and Tyreke would be a considerable improvement at that position over anything else on our roster.

by nerdninja on Jan 12, 2012 10:29 AM PST reply actions  

Actually I like the idea of IT, Jimmer and Tyreke all starting

Rather than replacing Jimmer you replace Salmons with Tyreke and run both IT and Jimmer as guards. This would allow a better running game which is the stated preference.

"I gotta have more cowbell"

by CowbellKings on Jan 12, 2012 10:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Not a fan of that at all.

That’s exactly what we tried against Portland, and that lineup got destroyed.

by UCIrvine kings fan on Jan 12, 2012 11:43 AM PST up reply actions  

Holy crap!

Would we be small. Jimmer and Thomas would get destroyed by most guard combos in the league

by HeuristicLineup on Jan 12, 2012 12:43 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd rather they worry more about developing their players in their proper roles

And let Garcia get most of the minutes at the three until Honeycutt (or someone else they acquire) is ready.

"I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" - Michael Scott

by otis29 on Jan 12, 2012 10:42 AM PST up reply actions  

I like it. Reke/Thornton/Garcia

Label them however you want, just keep the ball moving or take a seat.

by blknblu on Jan 12, 2012 11:01 AM PST up reply actions  

(Cisco can help as a floor general, IT gets as many minutes as matchups allow)

by blknblu on Jan 12, 2012 11:40 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree.

I think Garcia is best fit and his energy is good for team. Is he the answer? Heck no, but he is the best we got there IMO.

Can't wait for October

by KingsFanInPortland on Jan 12, 2012 11:44 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't know that Jimmer has had a fair shot yet.

Jimmer has also had a couple games under Smart and has been asked to be a playmaker rather than a scorer. It is clear that he took this to mean that he should bypass his own offense and defer to everybody else on the court.

I think that this is all really just more of a speed bump, though still a problem, than anything else. I liked that Jimmer came out shooting this last game and I think that will go a long ways toward him taking on a combo guard role rather than trying to be a pure PG.

With young players we need to be patient, or so I hear, and given the need for role clarity I just don’t see that Jimmer has been able to play his best game yet. No wonder he hasn’t been comfortable.

Patience is hard, but worthwhile before consigning a top pick the end of the bench.

"I gotta have more cowbell"

by CowbellKings on Jan 12, 2012 10:30 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

I was completely against the Kings drafting Jimmer

But there’s some court vision and basketball I.Q. there. A starting point anyway.

by blknblu on Jan 12, 2012 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Everytime I hear 'Combo' or 'Stretch' it just reminds me that we don't have a player talented enought to fill the role

I do not want another Combo Guard. If we had to have one we should of kept Beno. We need a playmaker, and for now if that’s IT that’s fine. I don’t believe he’s ready based on one game but we can give it a try if Thornton’s out again.

Jimmer has no where near the True PG experience that Thomas has. They played totally different styles in college. But, that doesn’t mean that Jimmer won’t be a excellent starting PG some time in the future. I liken it to what Smart did for Curry. Curry was a better shooter out of college, but Jimmer is showing better defense and handles that are at least as good as Curry’s. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised is Smarts work with Curry wasn’t the reason that the Kings chose to bring Smart on board in the first place.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jan 12, 2012 3:51 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

You´re just crazy

If you inply that they actually thought ahead. Snap out of it.

by rubenho on Jan 13, 2012 12:30 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Site Suggestion: The Westphal Rotation Rosterbating Fanpost

It’s kind of like the Asinine Trade Thread, except for people to go on and on about all the rotation changes they want to make game in and game out and we can keep all of that stuff in one place. And we can name it in memory of the coach who loved to start the hot hand and make perplexing decisions.

by wallywagon11 on Jan 12, 2012 10:32 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

I agree with you, but....

A new coach has just started, and he’s dealing with injuries. Westphal rotated line-up every five games for the hell of it.

Salmons has looked like crap consistently under two coaches. If everyone is healthy, based on what I’ve seen I would start..

IT, Thorton, Tyreke, Hayes, Cousins

Bench players getting the most minutes….JT, Jimmer, Hickson

While players are injured I like Hickson starting in place of Hayes and hopefully Thorton is back tonight.

by nerdninja on Jan 12, 2012 10:47 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't think Thomas should start either

..he should be the first guard off the bench once the starters are sputtering, which would mean he comes in halfway through the 1st qtr. I also feel Thornton should be coming off the bench as well. He’s a gunner. He’s going to get his shots up regardless of whether he starts or not. Might as well get them with the 2nd unit where its not bad for him to shoot vs the 1st unit, who need the ball at 1st to get going usually. Problem is Jimmer isn’t the answer as a starter either

Anyone else feel Jimmer shrinking and almost sad on the bench as the Kings were doing well in the 4th yesterday?

by Tom A~! on Jan 12, 2012 10:41 AM PST reply actions  

All about small sample size...

I’m not sure any changes to the rotation should take place, unless it’s for something as simple as injury or effort (see: Hayes, Chuck for the former and Salmons, John for the latter as references). Smart’s not had the time do anything but draw x’s and o’s on napkins on the team plane on the way to the next game, and that’s not going to be changing any time soon with this wicked roadtrip. The guys should just have the chance to get to know each other, make their mistakes and learn a little bit more each day. If you have to bench someone (*cough*salmons*cough*) do it for items within their control (like actually trying). There have been a zillion (give or take) different lineups from necessity, that should be enough without “westphauling” even more inconcsistency.

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true.
- Yogi Berra

by Ratatat on Jan 12, 2012 10:52 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Passing Instincts

Small sample size be damned! Thomas had three passes in the 4th last night that were the three ‘best’ passes I’ve seen from any King this year. Tyreke kicking out to an open shooter is one kind of assist, but still dependant on the shooter (not a strength of our team.) A no-look bounce to a wide-open center under the basket is technically the same, but leads to a much higher percentage play, a happier center, and a better flow.

It’s not that I think Tyreke is incapable, but he doesn’t have the same instinct we saw in Thomas last night. They mentioned it on the broadcast… Coach Smart was running down the sideline with Tyreke telling him to keep his court vision. Tyreke has mentioned it himself… he is a scorer first and still trying to really get comfortable in a distributor role.

by Hardly on Jan 12, 2012 11:02 AM PST reply actions   3 recs

Exactly This. I think the writing's on the wall.

時國王驕奢,不遵典憲。 《後漢書》
When Kings are too proud and extravagant, they do not obey the rules and regulations, and thus end up in foul trouble.
_Book_of_the_Later_Han_ (ca. 400 A.D.)

by sj60615 on Jan 12, 2012 11:12 AM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Prophet

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jan 13, 2012 8:06 AM PST up reply actions  

Excellent points, Andy.

Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."

by Slam_Dunk on Jan 12, 2012 11:17 AM PST up reply actions  

You would?
I would expect Thomas’ numbers to improve over the next 100 weeks, and probably at a rate commensurate with Evans’ own improvement over his first 2+ years.

Everyone’s the same…#60 picks and #4 picks? Who’s to say that once Isaiah is on opponent’s radars and they adjust to him, that he’s able to make the leap? Will he be able to play Toronto every game?

I like Thomas…very much so at this point. But it’s still very early to assume Isaiah will maintain his current numbers, much less improve on them.

"I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" - Michael Scott

by otis29 on Jan 12, 2012 11:20 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I think this says a lot right now.
Thomas already has better assist numbers than Evans

Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."

by Slam_Dunk on Jan 12, 2012 11:24 AM PST up reply actions  

The numbers I refer to are assists and turnovers, nothing more.

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.

Which I will eat.

by andy sims on Jan 12, 2012 11:24 AM PST up reply actions  

And my question still stands

"I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" - Michael Scott

by otis29 on Jan 12, 2012 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

If you really want to compare career number for a player 10 games into said career, I don't think we can have a real conversation about this.

I am suggesting that with starter’s minutes, whether or not he starts, Thomas will prove to be a better facilitator of the offense than anyone currently on the roster. His skills in this area are already in many ways better than Evans’. It’s apparent his court awareness is superior, and he very obviously is looking to get everyone involved before looking for his own shot.

That’s a point guard. Evans is very skilled, and has some traits of a point guard, but that isn’t his natural position. As I have to point out with the Fredette worshipers, this is not an attack, this is an assessment with the statistical and visual evidence we have this far, limited though it may be in Thomas’ case. Evans is a big boy, he doesn’t need to be constantly defended.

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.

Which I will eat.

by andy sims on Jan 12, 2012 3:43 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Maybe I'm misunderstanding

But you’re stating facts based on what you’ve seen of this guy 10 games in his career (“Thomas will be a better facilitator, his skills are superior”), yet when I make the argument that 10 games gives us no certainty to his future or growth as a point guard in the NBA, suddenly we can’t have a real conversation?

Evans is a big boy, he doesn’t need to be constantly defended.

So is Mr. Thomas, I’m assuming.

Sorry, you can’t just wave a magic wand and get everyone to agree with you Andy.

"I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" - Michael Scott

by otis29 on Jan 12, 2012 4:49 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't really care if I convince you or not. It's your absolute right to be incorrect in your snap judgments.

Since 10 games is no more a reasonable sample size to gauge a player’s career successful or unsuccessful, we’ll increase the sample size.

In three years at UW, playing in 35 games each season, Thomas’ assist to turnover ration went from 1:1 to 1.3:1 to better than 2:1. Whether anyone gives a damn or not, I can’t say. I would suggest that this constitutes evidence of an ability to learn and improve with experience.

Evans one season in college, Evans had a 1.08:1 assist to turnover ratio. In a very good rookie season, Evans’ ratio was a wonderful 1.9:1.

Last season Evans had a 1.75:1 figure, and this season, it’s 1.4:1. Thomas in the same current time frame as Evans is 1.5:1.

The evidence in play indicates that Thomas improved his proficiency over time against similar competition, whereas Evans has become less efficient over a similar period.

Now, understanding that college and the NBA are apples and oranges is paramount. My initial post was in response to Ziller’s assertion that

…if you want to see how the Kings fare with a traditional point guard in place of Evans, you first need the Kings to acquire a traditional point guard. Thomas isn’t that.

Based on his college numbers, Thomas is a point guard. His FGA per game remained remarkably consistent over three years, all the while doubling his efficiency in areas pertaining to the point guard position. Will it apply to the NBA? No one knows. Do I like his odds in regard to Evans of becoming a real facilitator of the team’s offense based on the skills he’s displayed here and at UW? Absolutely.

Evans is an amazing basketball player. He is best suited being a shooting guard who assists and rebounds at a better-than-average rate rather than running an offense. A lot of teams would relish him in that role, I wish I could understand why the organization and its most informed followers don’t.

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.

Which I will eat.

by andy sims on Jan 12, 2012 6:56 PM PST up reply actions   3 recs

LOL
I don’t really care if I convince you or not. It’s your absolute right to be incorrect in your snap judgments.

The length of your subsequent post would seem to indicate differently, but ok.

You do know that Isaiah Thomas was forced into the point guard role at UW after an injury right? He was the dreaded “combo guard” as well until his senior season. That could be why you see an improvement in his assist to turnover ratio, because he was forced to pass the ball. He appeared to take to it well, but UW is not the NBA.

Here’s the bottom line. You’re clearly reacting to one game’s worth of evidence against a crappy opponent and then spouting “small sample size” to anyone who looks at his current numbers as a “facilitator” versus Evans’ numbers. You are assuming that Thomas will continue to improve over time – I’m just trying to figure out how that’s assured.

You’re welcome to your opinion, of course. But it seems you’re wielding the small sample size stick in a hypocritical manner.

"I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" - Michael Scott

by otis29 on Jan 13, 2012 4:19 AM PST up reply actions  

I can see this is getting to be futile.
You are assuming that Thomas will continue to improve over time – I’m just trying to figure out how that’s assured.

You want me to assure you? I’m not your mother. In my previous post, all I did was look at the information we have thus far, you know, evidence, and attempt to extrapolate a possible result. I didn’t promise or guarantee anything. The team plane might crash tomorrow, and then boy, would I look stupid.

“Haha, Isaiah Thomas isn’t ever going to be a great NBA point guard, or anything else for that matter! In your face, sims!”

Here’s the bottom line. You’re clearly reacting to one game’s worth of evidence against a crappy opponent and then spouting "small sample size" to anyone who looks at his current numbers as a "facilitator" versus Evans’ numbers.

I dig out 3-4 years worth of data in order to support my opinion (yep, opinion), and you still go to your “small sample size” crutch (or is it a stick?). I didn’t even mention the Toronto game in order to make the argument, but if you’re convinced that’s what has me all fired up about Thomas, and not my own assessment of his game in the time he’s been playing and practicing in Sacramento, then there’s not a whole lot else to add. Since I know you’re a bright guy, I’ll simply conclude that you’re just being contrary for the hell of it, which is certainly fun to do once in awhile.

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.

Which I will eat.

by andy sims on Jan 13, 2012 6:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Okey dokey
I’ll simply conclude that you’re just being contrary for the hell of it, which is certainly fun to do once in awhile.

"I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" - Michael Scott

by otis29 on Jan 13, 2012 7:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Here’s the bottom line. You’re clearly reacting to one game’s worth of evidence against a crappy opponent and then spouting "small sample size" to anyone who looks at his current numbers as a "facilitator" versus Evans’ numbers.

Pretty sure sims has talked about how Isaiah is the only point guard on this team well before the Toronto game.

by wallywagon11 on Jan 13, 2012 8:22 AM PST up reply actions  

That's not my problem with his opinion so much

As his assumption that Isaiah will only get better. Basically, he’s called it a stone-cold lock.

What happened to Tyreke can just as easily happen to the first pick in a draft as to the #60 pick in the draft. Isaiah’s had a nice start, but crowning him as the “point guard of the future” for this team is premature.

His implication in rebutting Ziller’s points about assist and turnover % is that the sample size is too small (“I would expect Thomas’ numbers to improve over the next 100 weeks, and probably at a rate commensurate with Evans’ own improvement over his first 2+ years.”). Yet, when I say that the sample size is too small to expect Isaiah to maintain his current numbers over time – well, I’m making “snap judgements”.

I have no beef with Isaiah’s play at this point – I think he’s been great. But there’s no reason for me to think that he’ll continue to play at this level over the long haul. Team’s aren’t exactly focusing on him, and when they do – well, we’ll see how he does.

"I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" - Michael Scott

by otis29 on Jan 13, 2012 8:55 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

When you get a sec, please show me where I crowned Thomas as the "point guard of the future."

And please refrain from trying to put words or anything else into my mouth.

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.

Which I will eat.

by andy sims on Jan 13, 2012 3:17 PM PST up reply actions  

I just realized what's going on here.

You keep writing that I’ve said things which I haven’t, or even implied in most cases.

The reality is that you’re having a debate with someone who is trying to make a case based on information at hand, some of it large sample size, some small, and a great deal of personal observation.

You seem to think you’re arguing with someone who has made all sorts of statements which I wouldn’t have said, didn’t say, and in many cases wouldn’t agree with.

If you want to argue with that fictional person, I’m fine with it, but you keep replying to what I’ve typed, and I wish you’d leave me out of whatever inner conflict or internet-based hallucinations that you’re wrestling with.

See? Now that’s the sort of remark that you can quote back to me with righteous offense!

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.

Which I will eat.

by andy sims on Jan 13, 2012 4:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm with you on this one

But the point of TZ’s piece kind of moved to the back of my mind when I read this

has forced Tyreke Evans, the starting point guard when Thornton’s healthy, over to shooting guard.

Tyreke had one of his best games playing SG with a true PG. That alone would seem to indicate that we play the best PG in the starting rotation.

But, and there is always a but, we played an excellent game against Orlando and only lost by 7 points. We shot 52% and had 16 assists. Against Toronto we won by 7 pts but to a far inferior team. We shot 37% and only had 13 assists. In the game without Thornton or Thomas we got blown out and Thomas got most of his minutes with Tyreke on the bench.

Basically we really don’t know anything for sure based on such a little sample size. Except that Tyreke can be just as effective at the 2, and we need more than a PG to get this team’s assists up into the 20’s.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jan 12, 2012 4:55 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

My only thought with that block quote

was;
What exactly has Tyreke improved at in the past 2+ years!?

The endless pounding.
A hole, blacker than despair.
John Salmons is back.

by twasserm on Jun 23, 2011

by Dirkula on Jan 12, 2012 11:34 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Tyreke has improved what he already good at...

He just hasn’t added any new skills that will help sustain his great play. For example: driving left, left hand finishes at the rim, using screens efficiently, mid-ranged jump shots, and a post-up game.

"First we get jobs, then we get the khakis, then we get the chicks."

by Wonderchild on Jan 12, 2012 11:38 AM PST up reply actions  

IT *is* a true PG, and a great one at that...

It’s ridiculous to look at the asst/to stats of a rookie coming off the bench who is unsure of his position and who is feeling his way around the league. He was not sure of how his teammates played and they were unsure of him.

Furthermore, it’s moronic to draw such a huge and overriding conclusion from a small set of early stats that a person looks like a PG, but isn’t.

If we want to look at stats, start from last night when IT and the team finally got comfortable with each other. The Kings finally look like a team with IT leading them. Their only chance of winning and doing something significant this season is to give the keys to IT and let him drive.

If IT plays 20 mins/g, the Kings will be a .500 team. If he plays 30 mins/g, they will be at least a .600 team. If he gets minimal minutes, the Kings will be a disorganized bunch of losers.

We need IT to run this team!

.

by bobk3333 on Jan 12, 2012 12:01 PM PST up reply actions  

"it’s moronic to draw such a huge and overriding conclusion from a small set of early stats "

How moronic is it to determine a definitive conclusion based on one game against a team that is tied with us for the 11th worst record in the league.

Does Thomas have more experience at playing the PG than any other player on the team, Yes. But, in spite of his capabilities we had one of the lowest assist games of the season. Can he perform just as well against Houston and Dallas as he did against Toronto, maybe. I kind of hope that Thornton doesn’t come back right away or at least returns slowly off the bench.

Either way, until Thomas gets more burn at starting against good teams, we need to hold our enthusiasm in check.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jan 12, 2012 5:07 PM PST up reply actions  

.600 if IT plays 30+ minutes?

Yes, very moronic.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jan 13, 2012 8:12 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm getting a sense of deja vu

with the Evans/Thornton backcourt. It’s looking really similar to the Evans/Martin backcourt. With the Evans/Martin starting backcourt we would have the same scoring problems to begin games we’re having now. We would regularly find ourselves with double digit deficits early only to get back into games once Beno was subbed for Martin. This happened numerous times before trading Martin.

The problem we had then is the same one we are having now: we are starting two scoring guards. Yes Tyreke gets assists but they are usually the byproduct of him trying to score (I call these Allen Iverson assists) and not because of a set play or in the flow of the offense.

I would love to see Geoff go out and get a traditional PG. Remove the pressure to run the team off of Tyreke and let him focus on attacking and scoring.

by StevenG on Jan 12, 2012 11:25 AM PST reply actions  

Evans/Martin

Just a reminder that Martin broke his hand a few games into ’Reke’s rookie season, and was put on the shelf five games into the season. After missing 32 games, Martin returned during a stretch where the Kings played 13 of their next 17 on the road, leaving virtually no time for practice. All told, Evans and Martin played 21 games together: 5 at the beginning of the season and 16 after Martin returned from injury.

That deja vu that you are sensing may be that there are those that are jumping to a conclusion that Evans and Thornton won’t work together without giving these two guys a real chance to play together before coming to that conclusion.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 12, 2012 11:52 AM PST up reply actions   4 recs

Yep, and the worst part about it

Our GM, who has very rarely made kneejerk decisions, did so in the Martin/Evans case. And we’re still trying to chase down equal value at this point.

"I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" - Michael Scott

by otis29 on Jan 12, 2012 11:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Probably true, but at least for this season Thornton's numbers are better than Martin's

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jan 12, 2012 5:08 PM PST up reply actions  

I think StevenG is referring to the type of players they are as opposed to the chemistry between them

Evans, Thornton and Martin are all scoring guards. When one guard has the uncanny ability to score, the other guard’s job is to get him to do so more easily. Martin really didn’t help others around him score, his job was to do it. Thornton is same type of player. It would be nice, however, if Thornton had the ability to get to the line like Martin. That is their glaring difference.

by adamsite on Jan 12, 2012 12:04 PM PST up reply actions  

We also have to remind ourselves who IT had his breakout game against.

He put up very impressive numbers against arguably the worst defensive PG in the league in Calderon. I am as excited as the rest of you on IT’s game and PG potential, but we are days into a new system. That being said, I prefer him being partnered on the court with Evans as opposed to Thornton. as SteveG just said, Thornton/Evans backcourt does remind some of Evans/Martin. This is not necessarily bad, but not ideal. I for one would have liked to see more of the Evans/Martin backcourt, but it is pointless to talk about. Overall, I’d like Thornton to be our punch off the bench in a 6th man role, much like Bobby Jackson, Jason Terry, and Jamal Crawford.

We also need to remember that IT is a scoring first PG. In many ways he is just a shorter version of Thronton, although with better handles and speed. IT’s most precious attribute is his drive and kick ability. Interestingly enough, I see it as very similar to Evans’ ability. When Evans drives to the lane, he looks to score because he can crash with bigger bodies and therefore does not kick it out as often as some of us would like. IT does not have this ability with his size, so his passes seem all the more impressive and productive. It also helps when your teammates make their open shots. Evans would have a much better assist rate if this were the case, and we would not be having this discussion of who our starting PG should be.

by adamsite on Jan 12, 2012 11:52 AM PST reply actions  

I don't think we need a "true" PG

I think we need a fast PG type that pushes the pace up & down the floor. Tyreke doesn’t do that, neither does Jimmer. They both seem to walk the ball up(correct me if I’m wrong I’ve only watched like 4 games this year, no cable)

At the same time I don’t like the idea of IT/Jimmer, MT23, & Tyreke all starting. I just don’t get why everyone feels MT23 needs to start. Manu Ginobli hasn’t started most of his career. James Harden is another example even though they are starter quality. Start IT & Reke, bring MT23 & Jimmer off the bench to rain 3’s on the other teams back-ups. MT23 should still play starters minutes off the bench.

by Allbenji on Jan 12, 2012 12:05 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

Walking the ball up isn't a bad thing in it's self, I don't think Nash is all that quick

there is no reason for the other players not to start the play prior to the ball getting to the arc. The player with the ball is usually under no duress and has full vision of the court in the event that someone is getting open. But, if we’re just going to stand around waiting for the ball to arrive, then yes move it up quicker.

I do like getting the ball up the court quickly if your going into the post to play an inside out game. And, Tyreke can certainly get up the court quickly enough on the fast break, so maybe he needs the extra couple of seconds to get a feel for the court and the defense.

I’ve said all along that there weren’t enough basketballs to go around for Tyreke, Thornton and Salmons to start together. And, while we may not ‘need a true PG’, I think that Tyreke might actually be more effective along with one. Either way, I believe that the reason that Coach Smart was brought on board was to help us improve at that position, just like he did for Curry at GS.

And, I have the feeling that the target for his attention is still Jimmer. So, while he brings him along I have no problem with either a Tyreke/Thornton or Thomas/Tyreke starting backcourt.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jan 12, 2012 5:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Yep, balls of steel. His faith is strong, especially when he stands his ground and take those charges

His 3pt shooting is also a surprise. I’m not going to get too excited over one game against the Raptors. I’m just really happy to see Tyreke’s play at the 2.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jan 12, 2012 5:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Unfortunately the Backcourt is Already Set
Again, if you want to see how the Kings fare with a traditional point guard in place of Evans, you first need the Kings to acquire a traditional point guard.

Acquiring a traditional point guard would mean removing someone from the back-court rotation. Petrie has essentially put all of his back-court eggs into one basket. Tyreke Evans is one of the two (if not the main) building blocks to rebuilding this franchise. Marcus Thorton just signed a multiyear deal to remain in Sacramento and continues to display the scoring barrage that earned him that very contract. Jimmer is a PR dream for this small market and, despite his low performance in the early stages of this season, is still considered (and primed) to become a player in this league.

This team NEEDS a true point guard. Unfortunately the back court, by all standards, seems to be already set. Their are a handful of under-performing players currently on this team but the back-court (along with Cousins) remains practically untouchable. Trade scenarios to allow a pass first point guard would only be obtainable if one of the three key rotational back-court players were dealt. I don’t see that happening this season. Not with a new coach, a superstar in training, a leading scorer, and a Jimmer.

Isaiah Thomas has been a pleasant surprise this season. However, his value can be attributed more-so to the gaping hole of this shoot first team than his talent alone. He’s a fine player and might prove to be the best 60th pick in the draft of all time. But his success, like that of any backcourt player the Kings pick up, is predicated on the departure of either Evans, Thorton, or Jimmer. His playing time only presented itself because of a Marcus Thorton injury. Go ahead, insert the perfect point guard you’d like to see fill that hole for the Kings: Steve Nash, CP3, Deron Williams, or even Isaiah Thomas. They do not work unless you take one of the three out of the rotation. So pick your poison. Do you Petrie and continue to roll the dice on a rotation of impure guards OR do you roll the dice and trade away for the potential missing piece? The really bad news… you can’t do both.

by CrownedPotential on Jan 12, 2012 12:47 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

...unless you make a serious attempt at 'Reke as your starting SF.

I think it’s kind of hard to imagine Tyreke succeeding in that role because he doesn’t really fit what I would guess is the common perception of what a SF is or should be, an athletic shooter who can also slash and finish at the rim. But lemme throw a name out there: Andre Iguodala. I can see ’Reke developing into a similar player: flawed but extremely valuable on both ends of the floor.

"If you're going to lead the orchestra, you have to turn your back on the audience." -Geoff Petrie

by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 12, 2012 12:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Like the nickname "Cold Blooded" for Isaiah

We all know about “Isaiah the Prophet”
Last night Isaiah was “The Profit”

by kurtis22 on Jan 12, 2012 1:15 PM PST reply actions  

Some point during the season, I would love to see the line up of

PG – IT
SG – Evans
SF – Donte
PF – Chuck
C – Cousins
Marcus gets the most minutes of the bench. He comes in and chucks like Jamal Crawford. When he comes in, Tyreke moves to the PG spot. JT gets the most frontline minutes. JJ comes in to provide the athletic spark. Salmons comes off the bench to back up Donte.

by khoganso on Jan 12, 2012 1:19 PM PST reply actions  

Respectfully khoganso, I don't think Donte has done much to warrant starting him.

Salmons at least as been productive in the past, Donte hasn’t. Just my two cents. I could get behind starting IT though.

Grant- "This message brought to you by Jack-in-the-Box"
Bill Walton- "I LOVE Jack-in-the-Box!"

by ThankgodwehaveWhiteside! on Jan 12, 2012 1:50 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree with you

Thats why I put at some point during the season. Personally, I think that Donte has so much upside, I guess I am hoping that with a new coach he will reach his potential some time during this season. Since Smart has taken over Donte has been getting more run and with his ability to defend and his length I am just hoping for a breakthrough. Just wishful thinking.

by khoganso on Jan 12, 2012 3:15 PM PST up reply actions  

I missed the "some point during the season"

I used to picture a playoff run with Donte, JT, and Tyreke as starters. It seems more faint now, but Donte is a decent guy, I just wish he would hit his 3 more consistantly. And just because I havn’t said it in a few posts………… we need Burkle.

Grant- "This message brought to you by Jack-in-the-Box"
Bill Walton- "I LOVE Jack-in-the-Box!"

by ThankgodwehaveWhiteside! on Jan 12, 2012 10:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Props to TZ for remembering to give some love to McCant's, McTenacity was not bad on his short stay here

Please just say no to Donté starting, he has barely proved he deserves to come off the bench let alone start.

I know I’m going to get slammed for this but I think some time up in Reno with the Big Horns would be perfect for Jimmer right now. It would give him a chance to play big minutes and get his confidence up while working on his game out of the spot light.

Frances Amthor: I think you're a very stupid person. You look stupid, you're in a stupid business, and you're on a stupid case.

Philip Marlowe: I get it. I'm stupid Farewell My Lovely (1975)

And in this vein I get what I want how I want it because I am the customer. You might want to remember that you thieving scumbag mongrel bitches.

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by Bluejohn on Jan 12, 2012 2:00 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

I liked McCant's effort.

But those were some line drive darts he would launch at the rim.

by blknblu on Jan 12, 2012 2:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Damn the torpedoes...start Isaiah

Tiz more important to win games then wait for some chemistry to develop that isn’t here now.

We need to roll the dice…fore we crap out.

by convoy on Jan 12, 2012 2:10 PM PST reply actions  

I'm not arguing this point because I think it's too early

But I also think Jimmer will put things together fairly soon.

"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower

by lietothegirls on Jan 12, 2012 2:48 PM PST reply actions  

Isn't that why we brought in the coach that turned Curry into a PG.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jan 12, 2012 5:31 PM PST up reply actions  

it's fun to dream

Jimmer is Curry on the stroke (but with more range) but Steph Curry is as pure a passer, from the start, as has been in the NBA for the past 3 seasons. Jimmer has other gifts, but that passing gene isn’t there to Curry’s extent. It will get better, much better, but not Curry spicy.

And 1: Curry is turning into a PG version of Kevin Martin – just a slightly built guy who gets injured easily and often.

by betweentheeyes on Jan 12, 2012 9:55 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Curry was thrown into the deep end just like Tyreke

Jimmer has been brought along a little slower. While Curry may have had slightly better court experience, Jimmer is definitely a better defender.

Because it’s so early in the season, to compare rookie stats I’m only stating this as a point of reference and not a statement of fact.

Based on Hoopdata adjusted for 40 mpg:
Curry’s average is 19 pts, 6.5 assists and 3.4 turnovers for his rookie season
Jimmer averages 14 pts, 3.8 assists and 3.0 turnovers after 11 games

I’ll make it a mental note to bring up the seasons stats in April, but until then I’ll take your advice and keep dreaming.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy

by HighTops on Jan 13, 2012 12:10 AM PST up reply actions  

So much of what is going wrong with Jimmer

seems to be about confidence, which surprises me.

"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower

by lietothegirls on Jan 13, 2012 8:33 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Me too

I thought that would be the least of his problems.

"I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" - Michael Scott

by otis29 on Jan 13, 2012 8:56 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Both Thomas and Jimmer are going to play a lot of minutes

with Thornton out.

Who starts, quite frankly, isn’t as important as who finishes.

Also, the Kings and Thomas were lucky to feast on point guards who don’t score when playing the Raptors, so there’s no real threat to defend. That’s not going to be the case in many games. The Raptor point guards are also also soft on defense.

That said, Thomas played a terrific game and I look forward to seeing him and Cousins to do a lot more pick-and-rolling. They seemed to have some great chemistry together.

"His D was a difference at the end."

by NewEraKings on Jan 12, 2012 9:33 PM PST reply actions  

Yeah Thomas had a few nice pick and roll plays

mostly with Cousins but there was one nice one involving Hickson as well (who is at his best as a roll guy on the Pick and Roll)

Author of NBA Mashups. Follow me on Twitter here.

by Aykis16 on Jan 12, 2012 9:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Isiah Thomas is a black Sergio Rodriguez.

Grant- "This message brought to you by Jack-in-the-Box"
Bill Walton- "I LOVE Jack-in-the-Box!"

by ThankgodwehaveWhiteside! on Jan 12, 2012 10:18 PM PST reply actions  

I don't think so

Isaiah is shorter, quicker, more of a scorer, better shooter, and doesn’t try to be as flashy as Sergio. And he’s also a better defender, though that’s not saying much.

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by raiderking21 on Jan 12, 2012 10:21 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I think they are both equally fun to watch.

And you’re right, Isiah will probably end up putting in more of a full stat sheet than Serg.

Grant- "This message brought to you by Jack-in-the-Box"
Bill Walton- "I LOVE Jack-in-the-Box!"

by ThankgodwehaveWhiteside! on Jan 13, 2012 1:23 PM PST up reply actions  

All this from one game against one of the worst teams in the league.....

I think IT and JF can both be point guards and have shown different strengths and weaknesses at the position. I know both were actually pretty good distributors in college, though one was the highest scorer in the nation and thus wasn’t asked to pass as much since he was the best option on the team to score almost every time. Tell Jimmer to look for his shot when there’s nobody in a good position to score and things will go better. One big difference between his game right now and a successful point guard’s is that he seems to be looking not to shoot and only to look for other people’s shots. A good point looks for the best option to score and, if that option is himself, he will shoot.

by Mr. Rockie on Jan 13, 2012 12:05 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

So...Fredette is a guard who should look for his shot. A guard who shoots first.

Or, according to many here, A POINT GUARD.

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.

Which I will eat.

by andy sims on Jan 13, 2012 12:20 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't think you got my point

I said Jimmer should look for his shot when other people don’t have a good one, which he doesn’t seem to be doing, instead of passing the ball anyway simply because he doesn’t want to seem selfish. Plenty of people are taking shots on the team. Nobody’s gonna criticize if you take the good shots instead of passing them up.

by Mr. Rockie on Jan 13, 2012 12:35 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Ugh
we’re talking Mike Bibby, Bobby Jackson, John Salmons (who played some PG in 2007), Francisco Garcia (ditto), Quincy Douby, Bobby Brown, Ronnie Price, Jason Hart, Pooh Jeter and Beno Udrih.

That gave me chills.

by rubenho on Jan 13, 2012 12:25 AM PST reply actions  

You guys

should just bring Adelman back. He could do wonders with a Fredette/Evans back court and MT would be deadly off the bench.

by RedHopeful on Jan 13, 2012 12:26 PM PST reply actions  

Adelman wouldn't come back if we begged him.

Grant- "This message brought to you by Jack-in-the-Box"
Bill Walton- "I LOVE Jack-in-the-Box!"

by ThankgodwehaveWhiteside! on Jan 13, 2012 1:25 PM PST up reply actions  

He would if it weren’t for the Maloofs still owning this team

Founder of team Omté Caspeen

by Widowwolf on Jan 13, 2012 3:12 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

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