Kings' Lineup Changes: Where Should Keith Smart Look?
by Tom Ziller on Jan 17, 2012 12:00 PM PST
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PrintAfter the Sacramento Kings' latest loss on Monday against the Minnesota Timberwolves, Keith Smart told Jason Jones of the Sacramento Bee that he'd consider lineup changes before Wednesday's game against the Indiana Pacers back at home. That's a big move, considering that Smart had adopted Paul Westphal's starting five (with the exception of the three games that Marcus Thornton missed).
Who are the candidates to drop out and step up?
SMALL FORWARD
Potentially out: John Salmons
Potentially in: Tyreke Evans, Donte Greene, Francisco Garcia
Salmons isn't getting the job done ... and he's No. 2 on the roster in minutes played. He's played more than 20 minutes in 12 of 14 games, yet has only reached double-digits five times, grabbed five or more rebounds four times and has shot 50 percent or better once. He's been awful.
Smart has three real options if he wants to replace Salmons in the front five. He can do a straight-up swap for Greene or Garcia, or he can move Evans to small forward and promote a guard (Jimmer Fredette or Isaiah Thomas).
The pros of promoting Greene: he's a rangier defender than Salmons, is good in transition and is far more likely to cut off the ball than John. The cons: his shot has been nearly as bad as Salmons' in limited minutes this season, he's not a great rebounder (though far better than Salmons and Garcia this season) and his passing skills are underdeveloped.
Garcia is a better passer and has historically been a decent shooter, but he's cold this season, too. He's also a better off-ball defender than a man defender, and is as likely to score on any given possession as Salmons. Frankly, he's played no better than Salmons this season.
To win that position now, the best option is to move Tyreke Evans there. Reke is of course a good passer, has a better rebound rate than Salmons or Garcia despite playing PG and SG this season, and is the team's best or second-best scorer. He's also a superb defender against guards; he can handle most opposing SFs (non-LeBron/Melo category) as well as Salmons or Garcia, in my estimation.
The problem with moving Reke to small forward: you have to start someone else at the point. Jimmer Fredette has been really cold of late and wasn't great as the starting PG in Thornton's absence; Isaiah Thomas is viable, but Smart didn't play him at all on Monday and a Thomas-Thornton backcourt is a problem defensively.
Preferred options:
1. Start Greene
2. Move Reke, start Isaiah
3. Start Garcia
4. Move Reke, start Jimmer
5. Start Salmons
102. Start Outlaw
POWER FORWARD
Potentially out: J.J. Hickson
Potentially in: Jason Thompson, Donte Greene
At this point, swapping Hickson for Thompson seems like a no-brainer. Hickson is rebounding more consistently than JT, but he's also getting consistent minutes. Thompson's historic rebound numbers, typically as a starter (153 starts in 232 career games entering this season), are on par with Hickson's 2011-12 numbers. Thompson also happens to be a better passer, makes better decisions with the ball (though he's not perfect, obviously) and is far more efficient. Hickson's energy is great, and he seems to largely be doing what he's been told to do. But he also takes way too many jumpers (he's had more long twos than shots at the rim this season) and he just can't get the ball in the bucket.
The other option: start Greene as an undersized four to get the offense cutting more; Greene is the team's best off-ball mover, over Reke and Garcia. Thompson moves well from strong to weak post and seems comfortable dribble across the lane, but only really springs to the rim on pick and roll or pindown action. But Greene can't rebound well enough to be an answer at PF, and I wouldn't trust him defending guys like DeJuan Blair, Serge Ibaka or even David Lee.
Preferred options:
1. Start Thompson
2. Start Greene at PF
3. Keep Hickson in there, but use a quicker hook and tell him to stop shooting period
46. Start Isaiah at PF
47. Start Outlaw
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Good breakdown
One issue with starting JT is that with Hayes out JT can fill the 4 or 5 spot to spell Cousins and Hickson. I’m not sure Hickson can do the same. Although the problem can be solved by simply sliding JT to the 5 whenever Cousins heads to the bench.
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Hickson often times played C in Cleveland
So we know it’s possible, if not ideal
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How many more games did Cleveland win over what the Kings won?
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Yeah, this is probably the toughest thing about adjusting the lineup with this roster.
If you start Cousins and JT, are there enough effective Center minutes between those guys to win the game, especially considering the foul troubles of both? I guess we really need our Hayes back.
"If you're going to lead the orchestra, you have to turn your back on the audience." -Geoff Petrie
by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 18, 2012 10:28 AM PST up reply actions
On thin i think you miss here is this
Move Thornton to the bench and start:
IT – Quick, brings energy, and fast paced..Will make team keep up with him
Reke – Is fine starting at SG, Heres your point maker..
Donte – Whos better at 3 pt scoring right now
JT – Wont clog up the low too much, Good rebounder..Hustle guy – Does not give up
Cousins – It’s cousins..he ain’t getting benched IMO
You have a long lean fast moving team here with only 1 guy needing the ball to be effective (Reke)
Bench:
Jimmer
Thornton
Garcia
Hickson
Hayes
Founder of team Omté Caspeen
by Widowwolf on Jan 17, 2012 12:19 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
I like Thornton off the bench as well.
Having 3 high volume shooters on the floor together in Cousins, Evans and Thornton is one reason I believe we are not seeing the ball movement we all would wish to see. I bet if we took a poll of who we want taking the majority of the shots on this team, the answers would be varied. This is why we lack an offensive identity, they don’t even know.
Thornton is an ideal sixth man in the mold of Bobby Jackson, Jason Terry, etc. I would love to see his offensive spark off the bench against second unit defenses. He could really excel. He would still get his minutes but the rotation would be better.
With that, I’d move Tyreke to the 2 and start IT for the time being. Hayes gets his starter role back when he returns, and the 3 spot is a total crap shoot. That being said, I’d lean towards Donte because of his off the ball movement to speed up the offense, and to keep pace with IT.
Good call.
I didn’t address backcourt changes, but replacing Thornton in the starting five would be something to look at. I just doubt Smart is going to pull the plug there.
I love the idea for the long term
Problem is you would need a guard who could step in and start. I’m just not sure IT or Jimmer is there yet. If one of them can fill the void, Thornton seems very well suited to the 6th man role. Come into the game and provide instant offense. Play in crunch time on nights his shot is falling.
I think Thornton is as big a problem as Salmons
Thornton has not played like he did at the end of last season. He’s shooting a career low in 3P% and FG%. And, for a starting guard he’s averaging more turnovers than assists. And, he’s puts up a lot of contested shots.
So far this season, he has shot 40% or less from the field in 7 of 11 games. 5 of which were 33% or less. We have won 3 of the 4 games in which he shot 43% or better but that isn’t enough to warrant starting.
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Agree
Especially the type of player he is. He’s a gunner. No problem with that in the right role. But that’s more of a 6th man specialty. Would work well too to have him as the first player off the bench when Evans or Cousins goes out. Save his firepower for the second unit.
Agree with both of you.
I would start Garcia and Salmons at the SG and SF and have Thornton be first off the bench.
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Apropos of not much
MT looks like he has no idea how to throw a pass. I see them zinging into traffic, bouncing off of people’s feet, bouncing off the feet of the people standing in front of his teammates…am I seeing things?
He is NaPG. He's decent for a young, combo guard.
To be fair, our offensive system has hurt him too. We’ve had all of our players going 1 on 1. Hopefully Thornton buys into whatever system Smart installs.
He has more TOs than assists
But his career average in 150 games over 2 seasons is 3:2, or 1.5. I’ll take that over a 11-game sample in which everyone has sucked. MT’s passing efficiency actually ranks above average for SGs.
Smart Era, y'all.
As poorly as Salmons has been shooting at least his defense hasn't been bad
John’s rebounds and steals are above his career average, and his turnover are below his career average. If he were hitting his normal 37% from three his overall FG% would only be 1.3% below his career. And, his entire career he’s played the 2.
Now take into consideration Thornton’s defensive lapses and the fact that he’s shot under 40% in 7 of his 11 games, and I have no problem with that statement. He is not the same player he was last year with us, and doesn’t seem to be a good fit along with Tyreke.
He shot 40% or less while taking more shots than Tyreke, in each of the 5 games in which Tyreke failed to score in double digits. And, if it weren’t for Thorntons exceptional shooting in the LA game (9-13) he’d be shooting .387 now.
Of course with the SSS, it’s going to be after the All-Star Break before we see enough actual numbers to see a clear picture. By then they both could be the battling for best player on the team. Who knows. But, for right now he’s got one exceptional game and 7 stinkers.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
I would like
to see Reke at SF. See what he can do there. I also think Thompson will start. I thought about having Thornton off the bench, but I don’t think he’s been an issue (minus the injury.)
formerly what_the_crap
I really think moving Reke to SF will have very little effect on his game
he will still be primary BH. So with that thought, I think you put your best (most balanced) set of 3 smalls out there. There are only 3 that have reached adequate so far, imo, and that is Reke Thornton and IT (if he stands on his toes).
I would also have either Reke or DMC on the floor at all times.
35 and 31. I'm calling it now. Reke and Cousins 1-2 in most improved award both All-stars. Jimmer leads rookies in scoring, passing and Ole's. Make 2nd round of playoffs and Salmons is not here by seasons end.
What I like about 'Reke playing off the ball with IT as the primary ballhandler
Is that it allows ‘Reke to be effective with the strongest part of his game- getting to the rim and finishing (and/or getting fouled). IT’s quickness allows him to get into the teeth of the defense and draw attention- if he is then able to get the ball to Evans (as he did so effectively in the Toronto game), ‘Reke then has the space to attack without having the defense already setup to stop him. When ’Reke is having a game where he just can’t get it going, it seems to me that it’s usually because the defense is setting up specifically to stop him at the rim, putting one defender in position to slide right between Tyreke and the rim and either draw a charge or force a tough shot. This is what happens when we see Evans bring the ball up, choose a path to the basket, and attack with a full head of steam. The defense knows it’s coming, and when
Evans is having a good game it’s usually more due to his amazing ability to hit tough shots than to any sort of effective offensive system.
If IT is unable to get the ball to ‘Reke in a good position to slash, he looks for an opening to Cousins around the basket (as he did so well in Toronto) to hopefully score and/or draw a foul (or, get blocked or turn the ball over, on his bad nights). Isaiah is obviously still figuring things out, and putting the ball in his hands as a starter will likely lead to a lot of turnovers and some forced shots, but I also think it will lead to the kind of easy shots that we’ve seen so little of from this team over the past few years and allow our two big talents to finally get a chance to score without having to go 1-on-5. I’m ready to take the bad with the good while these guys are figuring things out together on the court, but something needs to change with this offense because right now we’re getting way too much bad and not nearly enough good.
I’d personally love to give ‘Reke a good look at SF to see if he can make it work there, because, like you say, this team needs to have it’s best players out there as much as possible as there are just too many guys that are contributing nothing at all. However, putting ‘Reke at SG next to IT, moving MT to 6th man, and either keeping Salmons as a starter to see how he does with a new gameplan or replacing Salmons with Donté or Garcia is just as likely to be the best answer. I’m just beyond ready to see this team’s offense start to flow, and let the deficiencies on defense play out however.
"If you're going to lead the orchestra, you have to turn your back on the audience." -Geoff Petrie
by AnotherStupidSN on Jan 18, 2012 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
I'd have Thornton come off the bench...
He’s way more effective off the bench. He’s a volume shooter and cannot be paired with Reke and Cousins in the starting lineup IMO. I’d throw Jimmer (for now) in with Reke in the backcourt. I’d sit Salmons and come with Greene. I think Greene is versatile enough to give 2’s and 3’s problems defensively because of his length and height. JT for JJ because JJ’s energy and motor also seems better suited coming off the bench than in the starting lineup messing with Cousins and Reke’s touches. So, my starting lineup would be
PG Jimmer Fredette
SG Tyreke Evans
C DeMarcus Cousins
PF JThompson
SF Donte Greene
I’d come with Thornton, Thomas, Hickson, Garcia, Salmons off the bench according to game adjustments, flow, etc.
Just my $.02
I think the biggest change needs to be putting Thornton in a 6th man role
As much as a disaster as Salmons has been, this team as constructed needs him to contribute something. What about sliding him over to the 2 spot, which is where I think he’s been the most effective in his career, especially defensively. Cut down his minutes overall. Bring Thornton off the bench as a sixth man, vastly improving the 2nd unit and giving him free reign to do his ball pounding heroics. Start Greene and JT. JJ can feed off of Thornton’s misses in the 2nd unit.
1: Tyreke, IT, Jimmer
2. Salmons, Thornton, Jimmer
3. Greene, Cisco, Outlaw
4. JT, JJ, Outlaw
5. Cuz, JT, JJ
@dampania | Section 103 Row V
I think that is the best line-up, as well.
If Salmons is sucking it up, just sub in Thornton. But Salmons has always done better statistically as a 2 rather than a 3.
This allows you to add the size, defense, and off-ball action in Greene and rebounding in Thompson as well. Also, from what I have seen, Thompson and Greene play well together; they are good friends, and they look for each other on the court.
"DeMarcus pounds, like the hammer. Tyreke slashes, like the sickle.
For the good of the proletariat!" - tomroadrunner
I am hoping he will get there
When he first took over as coach, he said he was keeping the same lineup and treating the first few games like the preseason.
Well, he’s been coach for 8 games now, which is roughly how long a normal pre-season would last.
We’ve also seen the Kings run an actual offense for stretches. So hopefully Smart is starting to get a feel for which players fit into which roles in his desired system.
The announcement he is ready to alter the starting lineup may be an indicator that his pre-season is over and he’s going to be coaching more actively to his system.
start salmons.... uh no
have you seen him play lately
by Gary Applegate on Jan 17, 2012 1:49 PM PST up reply actions
Its not about starting all of your best players.
I think this a great way to balance the 1st and second units. Salmons is better at 2 than 3. Him and Tyreke are a better defensive combo and can put more pressure on the other team’s ball handlers. Thorton will be the man when he comes in.
@dampania | Section 103 Row V
Yes, and the combo of Salmons and Greene will give us freedom on who Reke guards
The Twolves got a lot of open 3’s because Thornton and Evans were either playing off their man or lost them off picks and in transition.
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The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
JJ also lost KLove alot in the 2nd half
Did pretty well in the 1st half though
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start salmons
thats the worst idea i heard yet
by Gary Applegate on Jan 17, 2012 1:51 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I like this idea defensively.
Not enough shooting in the starting five with Thornton out, but you’d hope JT and Cousins can nail their looks and that Greene gets loose.
I like this a lot.
Move Salmons to the 2 and play less minutes. Bring in MT23 for him. Push Evans from the 1 to the 3 when Jimmer comes in.
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by caseycheesecake on Jan 17, 2012 3:02 PM PST up reply actions
This would be vicious defensively...
And in the post. We’d have by far the biggest team in the league, with no starter under 6’6". Our second string would come in and be both athletic (JJ, Thomas) and sharpshooting (Thornton, Cisco), as well as capable of running the floor quickly.
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by Donovan Jeska on Jan 17, 2012 3:20 PM PST up reply actions
Heres the issue I see with MT23 coming off the bench.
The idea is to stretch the floor to give DMC and Tyreke more room to work with. So if we take out MT23 who will we put in his spot? Not Jimmer. Maybe IT? Possibly Cisco? I dont know.
But here is where I believe the term “volume shooter” is overlooked… If your open… SHOOT the ball. If DMC and reke draw as much attention as we think they do ( and they do), then we would expect our perimeter players to be volume shooters. The problem either is MT23 is missing open shots… which he is (along with the rest of the team) or he is forcing too many shots. If he is forcing shots then I think the coaching staff should have something to say. People would not complain that MT23 is volume shooter if he was making his open shots. So I guess my point is… its not that hes a volume shooter, its the fact that he is missing some open shots.
The question then becomes, who do you put in his place? Cause from what I have seen MT23 is still making more of his open shots then Jimmer, Salmons. Donte and Cisco’s ball handling is too weak to play the 2. Jimmer just looks terrible as of right now. Salmons may have a better shooting % if he was moved down to the 2 with smaller guards on him. Do we call on IT and have Reke play the 2? Maybe.
by ridingthebench on Jan 17, 2012 6:23 PM PST up reply actions
And Id also like to add that..
Dwade, Lebron and Chris bosh are all … high possession “volume shooters”. Last I checked they made it to the NBA Finals.
by ridingthebench on Jan 17, 2012 6:37 PM PST up reply actions
I am thinking
PG Thomas
SG Thornton
SF Evans
PF Thompson
C Cousins
I think Thomas’ pressure on the ball will somewhat make up for the back court’s lack of size.
Seriously...
Why did the Kings give Outlaw 12M again?
My lineup:
Jimmer
Thornton
Evans
Thompson
Cousins
The Kings last year played better when they had the 3 guard line-up (Udrih, Thornton and Evans) and two imposing big men with Sammy and DeMarcus on the frontline.
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Chuck Hayes and a much BIGGER problem
I’ve been dying to see the front-court pairing of Hayes and Demarcus Cousins. The problem, we’ve only seen it a handful of times this season as the duo never truly got consistantly paired together (See Hayes irregular heart, Hayes dislocated sholder, and Paul Westphaul’s tantrums) early on in this short season. JT or JJ were both meant to be rotational players off the bench and it is assumed that the starting PF spot will resolve itself upon the Chuck Wagons return.
SF is another story entirely. In a perfect world, Petrie would trade John Salmons for the player he thought he was getting when he traded for John Salmons. Consistent defender and spot up three point specialist (Is Bruce Bowen still around?) For the past few games we’ve seen Salmons more aggressive with his shot and his play-making. Unfortunately the result has remained the same. Awful.
Greene and JT have shown the desire and the improved/consistent overall numbers in limited minutes to warrant a nod at the opening starting spots but we shouldn’t kid ourselves. There is a much BIGGER problem in Sac. A lineup change with the current roster is like putting a band-aid on a gun shot wound.
by CrownedPotential on Jan 17, 2012 1:04 PM PST reply actions
Scratching my head
on the salmons trade ever since it went down.
Why oh why did we trade away our best option at PG (Beno Draino) AND trade down in the draft for Salmons, who we already knew stagnates the offense by dribbling into traffic and only looking for his own shot.
Can we call take-backs on Milwaukee and get our Tasmanian Slovenian back please?!?!
by garylicious on Jan 17, 2012 2:15 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Why oh why did we do that?
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Good analysis
Donte over Salmons. Easy call. I would go step further and move Salmons out of rotation to DNP-CD indefinitely, play Tyreke at back-up ‘3’, to open up minutes for Isaiah in back court.
Coach Smart talked a lot about spacing when he took the job, and Salmons has been horrible for team spacing. He had his chance, and laid an egg, a zero out of 26 goose egg.
Smart Era, y'all.
by bench_blob on Jan 17, 2012 1:13 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Disagree
He had his chance, and laid an egg
Laying an egg suggests he did something productive. It’s an insult to chickens everywhere. The things Salmons has been producing on the court make venereal diseases seem attractive.
by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 17, 2012 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
I wouldn't DNP-CD Salmons
If only because our depth behind him is somehow even worse. But I would bench him.
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Think NBA would classify it this way
DNP-SUCKS Salmons
by SPTSJUNKIE on Jan 17, 2012 2:11 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
DNP-CD
Did Not Play – Cognizant Decision
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 17, 2012 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Did Not Play - Can't Dish
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
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by PhutureKings on Jan 18, 2012 1:46 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
DNP-CS (Salmons)
Did Not Play-Can’t Shoot
by Scott Section 213 on Jan 17, 2012 7:16 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Starting Lineup
PG Evans
SG Thorton
SF Garcia
PF JT
C Cousins
Garcia would help as an additional BH that is badly needed on the staring lineup. Jimmer needs to do a lot of work to fit in as a PG, should come as SG of the bench.
Rotation should include JJ, Greene, Jimmer, IT, Salmons.
I agree completely
Garcia starting at the 3 does a lot for us. He willingly passes up his own shot for a teammate’s, can hit the 3 (not great so far this season, but should improve with more PT to get rhythm), and provides veteran leadership to the starting rotation with Hayes out.
Hey Smart, do this.
To run or Not to run?
The current starting line up just isn’t constructed to run. There is no way to carry out that game plan unless they change the line up.
Most running teams have a pure point guard or some combination of two players with excellent guard skills. The current line up is really only playing with Tyreke PG skills at point. MT just isn’t more than a scoring SG. That is it.
If we are going to run then we have to have more pure PG skills in the starting line up. The only chance of that given the existing roster is Jimmer or IT and IT’s play seems to merit a shot.
I think you start IT in place of Salmons who is playing putrid basketball, but that is all. JJ and JT are almost inter-changeable, but JT scores better than JJ in the post and the second unit needs that.
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Might as well throw the other team off!
PG – Cousins
SG – Whiteside
SF – Coachie
PF – Tyreke
C – Thomas
Looks good to me.
formerly what_the_crap
by Dub_TC on Jan 17, 2012 1:28 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
I like your 3 spot
I think Coachie would bring more to the court than any SF on our roster currently, even when he doesn’t travel with the team.
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Because it had to be said...
Hit the 3 spot?
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by HarveySpecter on Jan 17, 2012 7:45 PM PST up reply actions
For reference sake
101. Start Peaches.
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by otis29 on Jan 17, 2012 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Flagged for the same reason
That should not be an option. Ever. Isaiah Thomas as starting 3 makes more sense than Outlaw.
The devil is dryhumping the details - Tom Ziller
Jimmer and Thornton are both ball stoppers
Maybe we can do something like Thompson & Thomas for Augustin & a filler PF/C?. Although i would rather trade Thornton for a PG, it doesn’t seem like we would trade him right now.
He over dribbles several times a game
35 and 31. I'm calling it now. Reke and Cousins 1-2 in most improved award both All-stars. Jimmer leads rookies in scoring, passing and Ole's. Make 2nd round of playoffs and Salmons is not here by seasons end.
So does everyone else.
Even though the voices aren't real, they have some pretty good ideas!
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 17, 2012 6:12 PM PST up reply actions
Not saying its only him
Reke Salmons Thornton Fredette Hickson, etc all guilty.
Just saying jumpboi statement was true.
35 and 31. I'm calling it now. Reke and Cousins 1-2 in most improved award both All-stars. Jimmer leads rookies in scoring, passing and Ole's. Make 2nd round of playoffs and Salmons is not here by seasons end.
Moving Salmons to the 2 may be a plus
As others have said, statistically throughout his career, his best numbers are at the 2.
1 – Reke, IT, Jimmer
2 – Salmons, Thornton, Jimmer
3 – Donte, Garcia, Slamson
4 – JT, JJ
5 – DMC, JT
Assuming that JT can continue his decent play, and stay out of foul trouble. One of DMC or JT will have to be on the floor at all times, until Chuckwagon’s shoulder heals. Then JT backs up DMC, and JJ backs up Chuck. If JT starts picking up silly fouls again you may have to slide Donte over to the 4.
The devil is dryhumping the details - Tom Ziller
According to 82games JT is shooting 30% as a PF and 76% as a Center
His played 19% of the Center minutes and 14% of the PF minutes. His rebounding rate is almost identical. He has a Per’s of 3 as a PF and 25 as a Center. As a PF his has a Pers differential of Minus 20 while he’s Plus 7 as a Center.
As I said in my own evaluation, until Chuck returns there is little reason to switch the PF rotation. I would like to see JT’s minutes increase. But, JJ is currently an 11 Pers at PF and 23.5 at Center, so it would probably be match ups that determine PT.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Agree..
JT seems to actually play better in that C role. There are alot of weird things about this team that make it hard to figure out lineups. for instance you have Chuck Hayes completely undersized but used to being a C, you have JT undersized but better as a C, you have Tyreke who is big for the PG, Outlaw a stretch 4, Donte is seemingly a stretch 4 but who is at his best guarding 2’s, Jimmer a pure shooter (hold back the jokes) but defensive liability, Thornton an obvious SG but a defensive liability at the position, etc.
by WebberDynasty on Jan 17, 2012 4:03 PM PST up reply actions
What about Cousins at the 4 then?
Using the same source, Cousins hasn’t played minutes at 4 this year, but last year he was almost identical at the 4 vs 5 position, and actually posted a slightly higher PER as a 4 (15.8 vs 14.4) and his defense was identical for both positions as well.
I think Cousins is a 5, but with Chuck out, Starting DMC at the 4 and JT at the 5 may work, depending on matchups of course.
The devil is dryhumping the details - Tom Ziller
Cuz at the 4 with JT at the 5 works as well as anything else we've tried
Personally, I like to see DMC getting the ball inside 10 ft rather than trying to create and drive to the basket from 20 ft which is where he got the ball a lot last season. And, I’d hate to lose Cuz’s offensive rebounding.
I think that Cuz is trying too hard to make the fancy shot instead of just one dribble into the paint and putting up a hook shot or just a face up 8 footer off the glass. Everything he does seems like it had to be drive by my man and dunk or drive under the rim for a reverse layup. I’m hoping that Coach English will help him simplify his game.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Agree with the trying too hard statement
I don’t see him a a finesse guy, but that’s what he seems to go to rather than just powering the ball in. Way too many missed layups that should’ve been easy dunks. And I don’t know what current NBA players have against using the backboard. Tim Duncan earned his living off that 8-10 ft bank shot. The glass is there for a reason… why won’t they use it?
The devil is dryhumping the details - Tom Ziller
Vs the Bucks...
…I sat by the tunnel where the Kings come out. During the game, I heard Coach YELL at JT “Don’t DRIBBLE the ball!” He’s best off the pine.
by Scott Section 213 on Jan 17, 2012 7:18 PM PST up reply actions
There's no reason that any of our bigs should dribbling more than once and ideally never more than twice
Frances Amthor: I think you're a very stupid person. You look stupid, you're in a stupid business, and you're on a stupid case.
Philip Marlowe: I get it. I'm stupid Farewell My Lovely (1975)
And in this vein I get what I want how I want it because I am the customer. You might want to remember that you thieving scumbag mongrel bitches.
nate21h@evilcowtowninc.com
I don't disagree with you that JT is a bench player
However, when injuries go down those players are pushed into starter roles. JT has been thoroughly outplaying JJ, and should get the starts in place of Chuck as long as Chuck is injured. No doubt as soon as Chuck is ready to come back (soon, please soon), both players go back to the bench.
The devil is dryhumping the details - Tom Ziller
For the Small Forward - Salmons out
Door Number 2: Move Reke to small forward and start Isaiah at PG
For the Power Forward – Hickson out
Door Number 1: Jason Thompson in
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
My line-up
IT
Reke
Donte
JT
Cousins
IT can push the ball & share PG duties with Reke
Reke gets to share PG duties similar to when we had Beno
I don’t care if Donte doesn’t put up great numbers. We don’t need him to do that. Defend the best/biggest wing player, take good shots, & cut.
JT is a better defender than JJ, looks to score within the offense, is a hard worker, & has really limited his mistakes this year
Cousins is Cousins
by Allbenji on Jan 17, 2012 2:29 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Time for a poll, TZ
Who do we want to start at PG?
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Chris Paul, Deron Williams,
Kyle Lowry, John Stockton, Kevin Johnson, Magic Johnson, Dennis Johnson, Mark Jacson, Tim Hardaway, Bob Cousy…..
We don't need a poll
There is only 1 PG on the team so he should start. It doesn’t matter whether you feel IT isn’t starter quality, he’s all we have. Play him until GP can get us something better(I wouldn’t hold my breath)
by Allbenji on Jan 17, 2012 5:54 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I happen to agree with you.
I am just curious what everyone thinks.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Agree...sort of
I don’t think that Thomas is any more of a PG than Evans. But together I think that they form a balanced backcourt.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Agree to an extent as well
I still think Tyreke is the best PG on this roster (not by virtue of him being a crazy prototypical PG but rather just in that he wins by default by being able to defend PG’s, score, assist, and manage the ball better than any of the others.
But my agreement is with 214 in that I dont think IT has shown himself to be a starting PG by any means (averaging almost equal assists to TOs and shooting poorly) BUT he may be the one that combines with Tyreke the best to make up a backcourt, maybe.
by WebberDynasty on Jan 17, 2012 7:38 PM PST up reply actions
Less about starters more about shooting
When one of our guys attempts to drive or run a pick and roll, we need to have 3 guys on the floor who can hit outside shots.
Right now, other teams are giving up open looks to Salmons, Hickson, Thompson, etc, and we’re just missing them at a terrible rate, forcing our playmakers to try to do too much with a clogged lane.
If Salmon’s is struggling consistently with his 3pt shot, he needs to be yanked for Garcia early in games.
We need Cousins in the middle, so if Thompson and Hickson can’t shoot for a high eFG% from the perimeter, then I think we look at giving Donte major minutes at the 4. We need to have a legitimate NBA offense before worrying about rebounding, which should still be OK with Cousins in there. I don’t think Donte’s D at the 4 would be much worse than Hickson or JT either.
Great article Z....
But I disagree with having Outlaw as the 102nd choice at Small Forward. We can easily start the orange cone at that spot. Moving Outlaw to the 110-115 range would seem more applicable.
Grant- "This message brought to you by Jack-in-the-Box"
Bill Walton- "I LOVE Jack-in-the-Box!"
by ThankgodwehaveWhiteside! on Jan 17, 2012 3:02 PM PST reply actions
my opinion
Is that we have 4 score first players in the starting line up who all have decent/good iso scoring ability. That leads to ball stopping, no cutting, stagnant offense. Remove 2 of those starters, keep the best 2 in the lineup (Cousins, Reke) and bring the other 2 (Salmons, Thornton) off the bench for bench scoring. Put Isaiah at the 1, the good qualities he brings to the starting lineup are passing, penetration, decent shooting which will improve, and he will pick up his man as soon as the ball is inbounded and be a pest on defense. Put Donte at the 3 because he will do the best at defending his opposition and with Isaiah starting he will get a few easy buckets. You can always switch out JT with JJ later if this still isn’t working. I still don’t understand why Petrie has most of our cap tied up in nothing but 2 guards, (Salmons, Thornton, Garcia, Evans), makes no sense
by Chent on Jan 17, 2012 3:05 PM PST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I am intrigued with the idea of STARTING Isaiah on the enemy team's least efficient starter.
Everybody knows what it’s like to be playing basketball and the worst guy is guarding you. You feel compelled to abuse him. As long as that player is their worst offensive player, it might turn out to be pretty okay hidden reverse psychology.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 17, 2012 3:07 PM PST reply actions
Let's face it Smart isn't going to make wholesale changes in his 2nd week.
While Salmons isn’t as advertised neither is Thornton. But maybe that’s true about everyone with the exception of JT. Coach Smart has stayed pretty much with Westphal’s lineups with the exception of Donte getting more minutes at the 4 since Hayes injury and Outlaw getting a series of DNP-CD.
Having said that what is the simplest change that would bring the biggest impact? The Kings have the 4th worst Defensive Rating and the 2nd worst Offensive Rating. Improving either would be reason enough for change improvingboth might be difficult with limited moves.
I don’t see any reason to change the PF/Center lineup until Chuck returns because we don’t need to change now only to change again in 2 weeks. Maybe more minutes for JT.
At the SF position, the difference offensively or defensively between Salmons, Garcia and Greene is minimal, but Tyreke would be an unknown offensively and wouldn’t be any better defensively.
Backcourt: Tyreke has scored in single digits in 5 games this season. Those are also the games where he took the fewest shots, 8 twice, 10 once and 11 twice. In those same games Marcus took 68 shots compared to Tyreke’s 48, and Marcus shot below 40% in all 5 games. In the 3 games that Marcus was injured Tyreke took 56 shots shooting 42.9% and scoring 15, 29 and 27 points. Not the most conclusive proof that they don’t work together, but proof enough that when Marcus is taking a lot of shots and shooting poorly, Tyreke is taken out of his game.
So to me the logical move is to move Thornton out of the starting lineup. Then who replaces Thornton? The choices are simple move Tyreke to the 2, and start Jimmer or IT at the point, or leave Tyreke at the point and move Salmons to the two and start Garcia or Donte at the 3.
The first option doesn’t necessarily make the team better now, but it does go toward developing Jimmer and getting our last 3 top draft picks to start playing together. The 2nd puts the best defensive guards and wings together and would make our best defensive starting lineup when Chuck returns.
Personally, because we’re a rebuilding team that’s not going to win many games this year. And since we have to start getting our top 3 draft choices playing together as a team sooner or later; I’d go with Jimmer and Tyreke in the backcourt. If Smart wants wins, he’ll probably go with Tyreke and Salmons in the backcourt and Garcia/Donte at the 3.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Jan 17, 2012 3:19 PM PST reply actions 5 recs
It makes sense, but I disagree on a few points.
Maybe Smart won’t make “wholesale” changes, but he should. The current situation of the Kings is beyond minor tweaks. I’d remove two of the current starters (JJ and Salmons) and replace them with Greene and JT. I don’t think it’s logical to not change the starting PF just because you might get Hayes back in a few weeks. JT is playing better than any big not named DeMarcus right now. Put him in the lineup.
Salmons is atrocious. Even if he played better at the two than the 3, he’s not better than Thornton. Hell, he’s not even better than Garcia. Until Jimmer can prove he can play better than he has, you don’t give him the starting PG position simply because he’s one of the high draft picks of the past three years. IT is playing better right now and has shown the ability to distribute the ball better than Jimmer (who honestly has demonstrated a rather low BB IQ thus far. The dude PASSES up open three’s – which he supposedly excels at – for the opportunity to dribble into three defenders, jump in the air and either shoot a tougher shot or turn the ball over).
For now: Reke, Thornton, Greene, JT, Cousins (or Cousins, JT); IT, Jimmer, Salmons, JJ off bench
If injuries are not an issue: Reke, Thornton, Greene, Hayes, Cousins; IT, Jimmer, JT, JJ off bench.
Bottom line: This team still has needs. First and foremost is a true PG. Second is a valuable SF. Overall the team needs a veteran star presence. Iggy, AK47 or Josh Smith would be nice.
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Jan 18, 2012 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
my rebuttal
Smart said after practice yesterday that he was hasty in saying that he needed to change the lineup. So, I stand by my opinion that any changes will be minor.
If I absolutely were certain that things weren’t going to get better or that the changes would improve the overall performance, I might agree that the changes Should be made.
JT is playing better but based on stats from 82games.com he’s only shooting 30% from the field while playing the PF. All of JT’s numbers are coming at the Center. Which is why I wouldn’t change now and would prefer to wait for Chucks return. Because JT at the 4 might very well be worse than JJ or even Donte who has been performing well at the 4 per 82games.
The fact that IT is playing better than Jimmer, is like saying he’s better than a sharp stick in the eye. It doesn’t mean he will be better than Tyreke or even perform anywhere near a starting PG level. Now I have no problem having him Start, but I don’t believe it’s our best option. I’d only like it if Thornton moves to the bench in his place.
As far as Salmon is concerned, the difference between his FG% and Thorntons is 7 made baskets. I know Otis is going to jump all over this but the facts are that with so few shots take this season just a couple of baskets either way makes a huge difference when looked at in percentages.
John is shooting a higher % than IT, he’s rebounding more, he averages more assists per game and has fewer turnovers. So, I don’t mind starting Donte at the 3, but I’d rather have Tyreke and Salmons in the backcourt than IT and Tyreke. And I like the defense better with my line-up also. But, I could be wrong, and we’ll probably see both line-ups before the season is out.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
He's my lineup
C-Whiteside (job #1 – protect the rim & allows Cousins to move to PF)
PF-Cousins (beat up on smaller PF’s)
SF-Donte Green (if he can get his shot back)
SG-Marcus Thornton
PG-Tyreke Evans (to space the floor)
Hassan will do fine at C with his long, 9’5" standing reach & 32" vertical. Cousins played better last year with Dalembert on the floor last year b/c he moved to PF. Cousins doesn’t quite have the athleticism & “mans game” to play C.
When Jimmer/Isiah come in, you can put Tyreke at the ‘3’. He guards the ‘3’ better than any other position (has length & doesn’t have to be as quick).
You should have started your post from PG to Center instead of Center to PG.
Because when I saw you had Whiteside in the starting lineup, I couldn’t take the rest of it seriously.
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Jan 18, 2012 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
Rather than positions and who starts does anyone
want to divulge minutes they want, which is actually more telling.
DMC 36 (but I will count as 26 since thats all he can seem to get to)
Reke 36 Thornton 30 Cisco 24 Greene 21 Salmons 21 IT 12
JT 26 Hayes 26 Hickson18
After 10 games I would eliminate 1 of the Cisco, Donte, John trio.
35 and 31. I'm calling it now. Reke and Cousins 1-2 in most improved award both All-stars. Jimmer leads rookies in scoring, passing and Ole's. Make 2nd round of playoffs and Salmons is not here by seasons end.
ElRon - did you send Jimmer to Reno for big minutes?
I can’t find him in your lineup and that’s where I think he belongs right now.
Frances Amthor: I think you're a very stupid person. You look stupid, you're in a stupid business, and you're on a stupid case.
Philip Marlowe: I get it. I'm stupid Farewell My Lovely (1975)
And in this vein I get what I want how I want it because I am the customer. You might want to remember that you thieving scumbag mongrel bitches.
nate21h@evilcowtowninc.com
Ok I'll give it a go
PG-Anyone who will agree to NEVER pass it J.J. Hickson and Salmons, get the ball to whoever is hot (rise the hot hand!!), will get the ball to DeMarcus in the post, and can run a fricken’ pick and roll!!!!
SG-Tyreke
SF-Donte
PF-J.T
C-DeMarcus
line up changes
move Reke to SF, Thorton stays at SG, then find a real NBA PG. Zeke is nice but a fun sized PG cannot defend for an an extended amount of time. He is a backup at best, find us a real PG that will give us more than 4 assists per game.
by MrMLo42 on Jan 17, 2012 3:36 PM PST via iPhone app reply actions
sorry, meant to say "little person"
Ever heard the expression “mouse in the house”? I bet Isaiah Thomas has more than once.
by MrMLo42 on Jan 18, 2012 12:44 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
But what's the causation
Did he play good D because he got 24 minutes or did the coach give him 24 minutes because he was playing good D (among other things).
This type of argument happens with young player a lot. You look at their game logs and they have great nights when they get X+ minutes. And it’s tempting to say, if they got X+ minutes every night they would put up those numbers consistently.
However, part of the reason they don’t get the minutes is that they are young and inconsistent, so the coach only plays them X+ minutes in match ups where they are doing well.
He has played pretty well every game he’s been in, been a fireplug just about every second.There has been some consistency..He has been making the passes, been 1st one back on defense, and has been altering shots…Where I don’t get is where the original post said
Zeke is nice but a fun sized PG cannot defend for an an extended amount of time.
And he knows this how?
Founder of team Omté Caspeen
My lineups...
Personally I would like to see…
PG- Reke
SG- Salmons
SF- Donte
PF- JT
C – DMC
My attempt at reasoning:
1) Moving Salmons to the 2 may be a more natural fit for him. Gives you better perimeter defense and he hasnt been turning the ball over at least. Thornton is better off the bench flat out in my opinion.
2) Donte simply by default has earned the minutes at SF by virtue of scoring better and rebounding better.
3) JT has earned the minutes at the 4.
4) bottom line is if you cant score you better defend. This gets your best defensive option at at least 4 of the 5 positions (I dont think you have a defensive option on the roster at the 4)
Now what will coach do? I think his remarks told the story that he is tired of waiting for guys to come around. I think he knows JJ is capable of much more, knows Salmons is capable of much more and knows Thornton has more to give as well. I would not be surprised by wholesale changes as I feel he may try to do it as motivation as seemingly nothing else has worked. If he goes with who is “performing” although thats a stretch I would anticipate we see Reke-Cisco-Donte-JT-DMC. (I only throw Cisco into Thornton’s place as he mentioned needing leadership on the floor. ) BUT One problem I see is that you almost HAVE to start one of IT-Jimmer-Thornton or DNP one as there simply isnt minutes for everyone and you cannot have those three playing together in my opinion. So with that said, and so much already invested in the Jimmer. My prediction of Coach Smart would be ’Reke-Jimmer-Donte-JT-DMC.
Of course Salmons doesn't turn the ball over. He'd have to attempt a pass in order to do that.
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Jan 18, 2012 2:25 PM PST up reply actions
Petrie influence on line-ups?
Salmons minutes this year have been surprising – at least in the sense he is getting the 2nd highest burn on the team. One can theorize they are attempting to let him work through his shooting slump – but the growing feeling is what we see with Salmons is what we get: a dreadfully overpaid past-his-prime player we will be left to amnesty in the future. Combined with a clearly inferior JJ taking minutes from JT, is Petrie pulling the strings from above to justify two dubious (at least at the moment they are) trades? In any case, it appears line-up changes are in the offing but this season is bringing back bad memories of the Bill Russell season – one of the nadirs in my Kings fandom. And dare I say Petrie’s recent moves bring back those of Joe Axelson – something I thought I would never say.
by VirginiaKingsFan on Jan 17, 2012 4:33 PM PST reply actions
Not sure it's that influenced
It’s still only 12 games into the year. Not yanking your veteran because of a slow start makes sense. As bad as he is playing though, I would expect a decrease in minutes going forward.
Smart needs to significantly decrease Salmon’s minutes. The only thing he used to do well is score and now he cant do that. Give someone else a chance, and admit he was a bad pick up.
by MrMLo42 on Jan 18, 2012 12:50 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
He can still defend
But agree. His minutes should drop until he re-earns them. Unless his shooting comesback, I think he is amnestied this summer.
That's a misconception this year. Salmons defense has been horrible, too.
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Jan 18, 2012 2:27 PM PST up reply actions
In my mind
since both Coaches and GMs get fired when a team sucks, I don’t think there is any conspiracy of minutes going on here.
35 and 31. I'm calling it now. Reke and Cousins 1-2 in most improved award both All-stars. Jimmer leads rookies in scoring, passing and Ole's. Make 2nd round of playoffs and Salmons is not here by seasons end.
Agree
Petrie would much rather say:
Man that Salmons trade stunk, but look how well my team is playing.
versus
See, given enough time, Salmons can put up stats on a bad team. Now where do I pick up my last paycheck?
No way...
If Petrie was choosing who plays I think you would no doubt see Jimmer getting even more minutes.
Also I would contend that you are making your judgement on the players based on two weeks of poor play essentially, so I am not surprised if it was a case of them wanting to let guys try to work through a slump (not saying they cant make moves and bring guys off the bench but just sayin I understand not crucifying these guys and never letting them see the floor again.) Granted Salmons is shooting like 35% for 8pts in the last month, but does that mean we can discount the month before that where he shot 56% for 17pts and say that its as simple as a washed up player? I know it could be the case but I dont think a 3 week stretch should determine that. Same for Hickson do we let the 36% he shoots currently erase the 49% he has shot in the rest of his career?
Danny Granger is at about 33%, Felton 35%, D-Will 37%, Prince 38% etc and for my money those would be guys I would welcome to this team in an instant I wouldnt write them off.
Guys do have slumps, guys have bad stretches. You have to manage them and get them through it but I dont think its fair to say that a slump means a guy is clearly inferior or dreadfully past his prime. Just my opinion.
by WebberDynasty on Jan 17, 2012 8:00 PM PST up reply actions
Respect.
Grant- "This message brought to you by Jack-in-the-Box"
Bill Walton- "I LOVE Jack-in-the-Box!"
by ThankgodwehaveWhiteside! on Jan 17, 2012 6:51 PM PST up reply actions
I have no problems watching him run around
and occasionally swat a few shots. Sure he’ll get abused quite a bit, but aren’t we already?
Too many young guys trying to prove they belong
JT Cisco and Hayes are the only ones, it seems to be, don’t feel the need to shoot all the time. Reke DMC Thornton Jimmer IT JJ Greene (not as much) feel they prove their worth on the offensive end.
I don’t think Salmons or Outlaw feel the need to prove themselves, they just play that way.
I think we need to play JT Cisco and Hayes (when healthy) more and the result will naturally be more ball movement.
35 and 31. I'm calling it now. Reke and Cousins 1-2 in most improved award both All-stars. Jimmer leads rookies in scoring, passing and Ole's. Make 2nd round of playoffs and Salmons is not here by seasons end.
by ElRonToro on Jan 17, 2012 6:04 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
I have to say
That I am totally not understanding the love for Donté. So many of you are putting him in as a starter.
Seriously?
He has never proven that even with consistent minutes he is capable of doing anything but marginal on-ball defense and streaky shooting. He always looks lost on both ends of the court. He is an atrocious passer. He can’t handle at all. He shoots at a higher rate per 36 minutes than Salmons, with almost double the number of threes included in that number.
I love his athleticism and enthusiasm as much as the next person, but come on. He is barely an NBA player at this point in his career.
Even though the voices aren't real, they have some pretty good ideas!
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 17, 2012 6:08 PM PST reply actions
The actual numbers, from bbref
Donté 12.7 FGA, 6.1 3PA per 36
Salmons 10.8 FGA, 3.8 3PA per 36
Even though the voices aren't real, they have some pretty good ideas!
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 17, 2012 6:10 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with Section below that anyone choosing Donte as a starter is basing it on the leaser of two evils
But, at the same time I disagree with you on the marginal on-ball and atrocious passer comments.
Donte is better than marginal otherwise why is he so often on the best player with no double team help? He’s also one of the better help defenders, as an example take the end of the quarter play where he got up and blocked the alley-oop in the last game. In the last 3 games he’s actually run a fast break after a steal and we scored on every one except the last. In that instance, Garcia was wide open for a corner 3 and refused the shot and passed out to Jimmer who had to take a contested 3. But, in every play not only was Donte a willing passer but he found the right guy.
Donte is by far a better passer and a more willing passer than Thornton. Donte may very well not get the opportunity to pass based on his role in the offense, but he has one of the 3 lowest Turnover Rates on the team.
Do I think he should start at the 3, No. But, I can see him starting at the 4 in some match up situations. For a guy that has been one of only a couple of players that is playing better than before, he certainly isn’t getting any respect.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Donte is the lesser of 5 evils
I don’t see the point in not choosing him. He’s still in his 3rd year and MIGHT play better. Salmons, outlaw, & Cisco on the other hand haven’t improved their games in 7 or so plus years and are just getting older & worse.
by Allbenji on Jan 17, 2012 11:19 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
You're giving him respect over a relative handful of minutes this season
And ignoring his history of mediocre to sub-mediocre play in the league.
Enjoy what he gives you now, I suppose – although by most metrics it’s still mediocre.
"I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" - Michael Scott
Per 36 doesn't mean much to me
When you only play 5-10 minutes a game. If you’re lucky enough to even play.
by Allbenji on Jan 17, 2012 11:13 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
So what you're saying is...
Donté comes in for 5-10 minutes and instead of being a role player, like anyone who gets 5-10 minutes a game should be, he tries to be Michael Jordan, fails miserably, but it’s the coach’s fault for not playing him more.
Because certainly, if he played even more than 5-10 minutes per game, he would play better.
Not following the logic on that.
Even though the voices aren't real, they have some pretty good ideas!
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 18, 2012 6:40 AM PST up reply actions
Why is the logic hard to follow?
If he plays more than 5-10 minutes a game, YES he will play better, because he’d be able to grow with more consistent playing time with the other players on the floor and because he wouldn’t be constantly worried about getting yanked for making one bad decision. Confidence goes a long way.
If Greene is already similar to Salmons in a per 36 metric, then why keep playing Salmons, who has been given every opportunity to improve, yet hasn’t capitalized, when you can give Greene an opportunity to grow. It’s not like he’s gonna be worse than Salmons. If he is, fine. At least we’d know, though.
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Jan 18, 2012 2:35 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not really sure that's how it works
If he plays more than 5-10 minutes a game, YES he will play better,
Depends on the player, really.
Let’s be honest – Donte has played limited minutes so far this year, and the numbers aren’t bad (for him). Statistically, I’d say it’s highly probably his numbers are going to decrease with extended playing time.
"I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" - Michael Scott
He's had his problems, and I get your point.
But, he’s older, in his 4th year, and I think he would benefit tremendously from a greater sense of of what is expected of him, more consistent playing time and experience.
I understand looking at the past. But, I also think that given his youth and history with the team, he may finally be at the point to start putting it all together with more burn and more defined role. If not, at least we tried. It’s certainly not going to make us any worse right now.
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Jan 18, 2012 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
+1
Frances Amthor: I think you're a very stupid person. You look stupid, you're in a stupid business, and you're on a stupid case.
Philip Marlowe: I get it. I'm stupid Farewell My Lovely (1975)
And in this vein I get what I want how I want it because I am the customer. You might want to remember that you thieving scumbag mongrel bitches.
nate21h@evilcowtowninc.com
He is a great guy
who in 211 games has never had 10 well played games in succession as far as I remember.
So I agree with you.
35 and 31. I'm calling it now. Reke and Cousins 1-2 in most improved award both All-stars. Jimmer leads rookies in scoring, passing and Ole's. Make 2nd round of playoffs and Salmons is not here by seasons end.
Perhaps it is a matter of hope vs. hopeless
Of the options at the 3, maybe Donté is the only one with even a glimmer of hope that he might actually get better.
It is an amazingly tepid to bad group of wing players.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 17, 2012 6:31 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
The new Hydra of Mediocrity?
Somebody needs to get busy on photoshop.
Even though the voices aren't real, they have some pretty good ideas!
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 17, 2012 8:21 PM PST up reply actions
A box of not-so-hot wings
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 17, 2012 8:23 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Even though the voices aren't real, they have some pretty good ideas!
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 17, 2012 8:28 PM PST up reply actions
That's exactly what is section
And I’m fine with that right this second
by Allbenji on Jan 17, 2012 11:21 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah
Not so much that I’m a huge Donte fan (although I’d like to see him do well), as much as it a “help us, Obi Wan, you’re our only hope” situation.
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Jan 18, 2012 2:39 PM PST up reply actions
He'd have to improve significantly over his career numbers
To even approach what Garcia gave us in a so-so season last year.
"I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" - Michael Scott
Defense and streaky shooting?
Sounds like Trevor Ariza. He starts I’m pretty sure.
Point is that’s what we need from the small forward spot. The ability to defend other small forwards and make a shot here & there. I can deal with the streaky shooting as long as they are good shots.
by Allbenji on Jan 17, 2012 11:09 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
He's not even a poor man's Trevor Ariza
He’s a homeless man’s Trevor Ariza.
"I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" - Michael Scott
They're not good shots.
About half of them are 3PAs. And I have yet to see consistent ability to defend. Certainly his team defense is lacking. He can’t guard the pick and roll, nor can he guard the 3pt line.
His on-ball defense is marginally better, but I’d still balk at putting him on someone like, say, LeBron.
He’s just not that good. He’s never been that good. I’d rather have Garcia in there any day. Unless we get a Rubio-esque point guard who can throw Donté alley-oops all night long. Then there’s some potential.
Even though the voices aren't real, they have some pretty good ideas!
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 18, 2012 6:45 AM PST up reply actions
He’s just not that good. He’s never been that good.
One can say the same about any and every wing in our bucket.
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Jan 18, 2012 2:41 PM PST up reply actions
My lineup.
Five guys who can consistently make a basket, get back on defense, and grab some rebounds.
by Scott Section 213 on Jan 17, 2012 7:20 PM PST reply actions
no lineup change
Keith smart was frustrated.
by 2001nbachampions on Jan 17, 2012 10:50 PM PST via iPhone app reply actions
The simplest answer is usually the best answer,
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
I Will Give It A Shot
PG- IT
SG- Thorton
SF- Tyreke
PF- Thompson
C- Demarcus
Just an idea i know putting Tyreke at the 3 is a stretch at best but i think it would cause a huge mismatch that this team would be able to exploit. Just an idea
I love a team that never quits
by Howard Nevens IV on Jan 17, 2012 11:07 PM PST reply actions
Well, because, you know, it's like, um...LOOK OVER THERE! (Throws ninja smokeball and ducks out).
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Jan 18, 2012 2:44 PM PST up reply actions
Thomas
Evans
Garcia
Hickson
Cousins
Like Thompsons energy off the bench. Substitute Hayes for Hickson at the 4 when he gets back next week.
by convoy on Jan 17, 2012 11:24 PM PST via mobile reply actions
John Salmons
is killing this team. Remove him now.
by lonelykingsfaninPH on Jan 17, 2012 11:52 PM PST reply actions
I agree it looks like Salmons has spawned is now swimming around aimlessly waiting to die.
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Jan 18, 2012 2:45 PM PST up reply actions
Or...What I meant was:
I agree. It looks as if Salmons has spawned, and is now swimming around aimlessly waiting to die.
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Jan 18, 2012 2:46 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with LPA, there has always been a great deal of love for Donté here that he has never deserved as a player
The more minutes he plays the more reason you will see for him getting very limited minutes from Westphal. He looks good at the moment because Salmons has looked so bad.
I went back and listened to Smart’s post game pressers and from the sound of the last one I would be surprised if Reke started. Just based on effort alone I think he will start DMC, JT, Cisco (your guess is as good as mine @ the 2) and IT.
As bad as he’s played Salmons is not responsible for the King’s issues. He’s part of the problem certainly but he’s not the cause of them.
During his last press conference Smart shook his head in amazement at this team’s inability to execute the simplest offensive sets, he actually didn’t sound like he cared if his option is picked up by the team or not. So if you want to see who sits look for the players who have played the most iso game, have made the worst shot selections and overall have given the most lackadaisical effort.
As for Jimmer, he’s not ready to play in the bigs, he passes at the hint of d and his passes don’t lead to points. He has lost all confidence in his shot which was his ticket to the NBA in the first place. He needs to be sent up to Reno to work on all aspects of his game and so that he can come back and contribute rather than continue this exercise in futility he’s experiencing now.
Frances Amthor: I think you're a very stupid person. You look stupid, you're in a stupid business, and you're on a stupid case.
Philip Marlowe: I get it. I'm stupid Farewell My Lovely (1975)
And in this vein I get what I want how I want it because I am the customer. You might want to remember that you thieving scumbag mongrel bitches.
nate21h@evilcowtowninc.com
Potential lineups
Should not include Jimmer ahead of IT. Anyone who places Jimmer ahead of IT cannot have seen all of the games so far. It’s hard for me to even remember one game where both players have played and Jimmer has impressed me more.
IT is a superior passer, he has a much better shot selection, plays better defense and is a better ball handler.
If people are only opposed to Isaiah because of his disadvantage with regards to his height on defense, Jimmer is a hell of a lot worse on defense. I agree that Jimmer should get some minutes, but right now IT is playing a lot better than him.
I’d start IT at PG, move Evans to SG and see how it goes. Have Thornton as a sixth man for now and if IT begins to play worse or Thornton’s game improves and shooting % then bring Thornton back at SG. Until then start IT at PG, who has clearly been the best distributor/true PG so far. Moving Evans to SG would also mean we have a SG who gives assists to other players, opposed to Thornton, making the team less one dimensional..
My lineup
You have to sit Salmons, and not because he is over the hill, or a crappy player, but because we have too many ball hogs on the court at once.
The two biggest issues with the current line up, there are 4 players (Reke, Thorton, Salmons, Cousins) who are either looking to score first, or do best when they are scorers (Reke). I think the reason Thorton apparently brings down Reke’s scoring is because with Salmons in, there is not enough ball to go around and Reke has to become a facilitator. Second, with Salmons not hitting the 3, and missing at alarming rates, the defense feels free to clog up the middle. We have to open it up.
Cisco has been a reasonably reliable 3 point shooter over his career. Thorton is also a legitimate outside threat. Reke would have the opportunity to slash or dish or take advantage of coverage gaps on the outside. Moving him to SF is a bad idea because he isn’t a SF, and he desperately needs to be doing what he is best at and getting confidence in his game and teammates.
PG Reke
SG Thorton
SF Cisco
PF Thompson (until Hayes returns)
C Cousins
I think we've narrowed it down:
Reke is NaPG. Reke is NaSF. Thus, Reke must be a SG.
Now let’s go get a real PG and start winning some games.
"Put Kobe or Lebron in a wheelchair, and I can GUARANTEE Tyreke would demolish either. You might want to rethink what you just said." - MarcusC.
"I never read those trade threads. They seem to be mainly populated with the sports equivalent of people who think the Rapture is imminent." - andy sims.
by PhutureKings on Jan 18, 2012 2:51 PM PST up reply actions
Well,
For starters, it would be nice to have a guy who is a really good passer. Even better if he likes to pass. And the best of all worlds is if he has the intelligence to remember plays, call them and run them.
AND I WANT A PONY!
Even though the voices aren't real, they have some pretty good ideas!
by LeaguePassAddict on Jan 18, 2012 3:40 PM PST up reply actions
Lol. Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode with the old woman Jerry offends
I think Evans passes well enough. He has generally had an assist percentage higher than other primary ball handler’s like Wade and Kobe. This is not saying he is Wade or Kobe, but you can certainly run an offense through a player like Evans. The key is actually…. running an offense. Look at the Timberwolves. They had constant off ball movement. Screens and cuts. They didn’t have three players standing around while Rubio-Love did the pick and roll. We actually started doing this for stretches. It’s what allowed Evans to get 10 assists. There were actually open players to pass to. It wasn’t as if Evans played radically different.
you can certainly run an offense through a player like Evans.
the warriors can run it thru MontayEllis too but it works much better thru StefCurry. It’s not a question of whether Tyreke can play point it’s a question of should he play point? If the kings find a Curry you’ll see the answer.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 19, 2012 10:11 AM PST up reply actions
Reke acts as a PG whether we have another one or not
he needs to have the ball in his hands.
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