The (Not-So) Great Debaters: The Cousins Conundrum

In this column, Exhibit G and I debate the recent situation around DeMarcus Cousins. G has already eloquently defended Cousins in a post earlier today, while I share some differing opinions. The following is our debate.
ExG: Based on my post earlier today, I believe you know my general position. From what I gather, you don't agree. Let's start by you explaining your position to me.
A16: First off, I have to clarify that I did not like Westphal's public airing of DeMarcus' heat of the moment trade demand. That being said, I also take issue with what I see as a grown man acting as a petulant, entitled child in asking for a trade before his second year has even started (Westphal said that Cousins first made this demand on Dec. 24th). DeMarcus is immensely talented. That talent has not yet turned into consistent production to warrant capitulating to his every whim. Cousins has issues with the offense, yet Cousins is also the main cog of the offense, if you look at his team high Usage rate during his short tenure. Over that time DeMarcus has been exceedingly inefficient, turnover prone and displayed a bad attitude on the court (something that to his credit he seems to have worked on this year).
I don't think Westphal is on a power trip or anything here. I think he legitimately wants to teach DeMarcus a lesson and try to help him to grow up. Is Westphal the right person to do this? He probably isn't. But you can't fire Westphal because DeMarcus has issues with him. If you do, you're showing DeMarcus that he's in control of this franchise and that if he complains enough, he'll get his way, and I don't think that's the lesson we're trying to teach DeMarcus here.
ExG: Let's back up for a moment. Part of your argument is that DeMarcus first made this demand on December 24th. Paul Westphal has stated this and emphasized this. It is a key factor in his justification to suspend Cousins. Do you consider a player, in frustration, shouting "If you don't like me, trade me!" a legitimate trade demand?
A16: That's semantics. The fact is that DeMarcus at two points in the last week, has asked to be traded in some way. Players get heated and complain all the time. But demanding a trade is something else entirely, and it shouldn't be used flippantly. Luckily, the Kings seem intent on not trading him and trying to tame this wild horse. They knew what they were getting into when they drafted him (these kind of issues are why were even in a position to draft him where we did anyway).
ExG :I'll agree that "trade me!" should not be shouted recklessly. No argument there. But I also believe that 21-year-olds tend to inappropriately shout things in anger that shouldn't be.
I'm glad you brought up the draft. They knew what they were getting into. They knew they would need to work with him, work with his temper and his attitude, and help him grow as a person. This is why he was available with the 5th pick. Which makes me ask who deserves blame here? On one hand we have a 21-year-old kid with known attitude concerns. He's had outbursts, and we've seen his attitude impact his play on the court last season. This seasons his attitude on the court has been improved, and he has kept his frustrations private. That, to me, shows progress in his maturity.
On the other hand we have a coach with a public history on not being able to manage players with attitude issues, and who has a default response to suspend players who don't respond to his style. He's done it with Spencer Hawes, and he's done it with Gary Payton. Although neither side has commented directly, the argument seems to be over the lack of an apparent system (in Cousins' view), or the player not being willing to buy into a system (in Westphal's view). The coach decided to take this public.
I know you've stated you disagree with Westphal airing this publicly. But given that, how is this Cousins' fault?
A16: I'll give you that over the course of the 4 games DeMarcus has played so far this season, his on-court demeanor has been greatly improved (Small Sample Size Insitute approved). As for keeping his frustrations private, I don't believe that is the case when you take into account his post-game interview after the New York game where he consistently and sarcastically kept saying "Gotta do what the coach says".
As for Westphal taking this publicly, he stated that if he had not released anything, the media would have been clamoring for an answer as to why DeMarcus has not been playing. Even if he had just stated that he had stayed home for "conduct detrimental to the team" or something, some reporter likely would have dug up something, and rumors would start swirling. This way it came straight from the team and they at least have a chance to control the story. I think that if you have a player who consistently misbehaves and who consistently doesn't follow direction, something has to be done eventually.
I may not like exactly how Westphal has handled this, but if I was in his position, I don't know if I could have done any better.
ExG: You're right, by Westphal giving details the team has a chance to control the situation. But does it seem like it was controlled?
Westphal told some of the story, but not the whole story. If someone came up to me and asked me to explain why exactly Cousins was suspended, I couldn't construct an accurate narrative of what went down. None of us can, because the information has been kept quiet. The organization is not in a good position either way. Either they explain what happened (or at least one side of what happened) and throw Cousins under the bus, or they say nothing and let the story leak. I suppose my biggest issue is that this approach attempts to straddle both approaches. Why not go the tight-lipped route, and then have a controlled leak to the media explaining what caused the issues? Tried and true.
A16: I think the point behind all of this was to teach DeMarcus a lesson in humility. That's one reason I think they included the fact that he demanded to be traded. I actually think that part of the statement is the clearest evidence that the Kings do NOT intend to trade him (since it effectively kills his value if they do). Geoff Petrie and even the Maloofs have also come out and stated that the team does not intend to trade Cousins. Cousins is going to have grow up one way or the other, and maybe exposing some of his bad behavior helps. Maybe it doesn't. Either way, his future with the team depends on how much he tries to fit in, instead of being his own man.
Another reason I think the Kings are taking the wait and see approach on DeMarcus aside from his youth and potential is the fact that this is Westphal's last year. He's not going to be retained if the product on the court doesn't improve. If that is the case, you hire a new coach and move on. But that's the only reason you should fire or not retain Paul Westphal (that is, if the team has a crappy record and has not improved), not because DeMarcus doesn't like him or the plays he runs. Who knows, maybe DeMarcus is really not buying in and that is causing a lot of the offensive cohesion problems we're seeing. He's certainly using up a ton of possessions so far this year without much to show for it.
ExG: I agree the team isn't looking to trade him, that much seems clear. I think you hit the hidden nail on the head. Westphal is smart enough to know how important this season is to his continued coaching career. He needs the team to make a leap forward, or he's done as the coach of the Kings. Given how long he had to wait after Seattle to get another coaching job, he also surely realizes that if the Kings fail to improve, it is likely the end of his coaching career anywhere in the NBA.
I hope this tactic works. I honestly do. I'd be shocked if it does, but I hope it gets the team moving in the right direction. I hope Cousins and Westphal can look back on this as a positive turning point in their relationship, and laugh about it as they embrace each other and hoist the O'Brien Trophy. But I feel it is far more likely that Westphal has simply expedited his eventual departure.
A16: I don't think many Kings fans think Westphal is the guy who will carry us to the promised land, but Cousins possibly could if he lives up to his potential. The Kings need to find a way to rein him in though, and Cousins himself needs to find a way to play nicely with others, because if he doesn't, it won't matter what other coach we bring in. My greatest fear with DeMarcus is that he'll become a player who finally grows up and lives to his potential, but on another team. I don't want to see that happen, and it's going to take a lot of work from both the organization and DeMarcus to ensure it doesn't.
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I can't say that I disagree with either of you.
"Cousins is the Blaster to Evans’ Master, the Hammer to Evans’ Sickle"- HP
by tomroadrunner on Jan 2, 2012 2:26 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
I want
CowboyRon in the next debate. Against Pookey.
by Dub_TC on Jan 2, 2012 2:30 PM PST reply actions 13 recs
Am I allowed to rec and flag the same comment?
Always put your right shoe on first, because if you put your left shoe on first then your right shoe will be left...and you will have two left shoes.
Pookey's responses would each be longer than this entire debate
And CowboyRon would just say “Fire Westfall!”
Author of NBA Mashups. Follow me on Twitter here.
by Aykis16 on Jan 2, 2012 2:55 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Sounds epic.
formerly what_the_crap
by Dub_TC on Jan 2, 2012 3:05 PM PST via Android app up reply actions
Yet pook wouldn't be able to completely refute the point as a solution.

Former Infant / Future Corpse
by swoosh91 on Jan 2, 2012 4:18 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
7 word screwed up catch phrase
vs
80,000 word essay reaching every extreme of human emotion and complete chronological history of basketball.
by bignerd on Jan 2, 2012 3:23 PM PST up reply actions 8 recs
You finally got your longed for debate
Enjoy it now. You may never disagree again.
It comes down to reality
And it's fine with me 'cause I've let it slide
We jumped at the opportunity when we realized we actually disagreed on something.
Author of NBA Mashups. Follow me on Twitter here.
Aykis and Ex - from apprentice debaters to masters! I always suspected that of the both of you.
Two thumbs up!
![]()
(one thumb up from Chuck Norris is the same as two thumbs up from anybody else)
by betweentheeyes on Jan 2, 2012 9:00 PM PST up reply actions
Both viewpoints calmly and thoroughly covered.
Alas, no solutions, but there’s always the real possibility there isn’t one, and respectful disagreement will have to carry coach and player through.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
I think this is the real solution
Both of these parties need to grow up and recognize that they arent going to agree with each other and that doesnt mean they cannot get along.
Aykis has been sent home by Tom Ziller
"Cousins is the Blaster to Evans’ Master, the Hammer to Evans’ Sickle"- HP
by tomroadrunner on Jan 2, 2012 3:25 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
this debate was just the tip of the iceberg
by wallywagon11 on Jan 2, 2012 3:43 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
hmpf
I was not invited to partake, as the site felt that it would be inappropriate to have mass debaters on the front page.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 2, 2012 2:36 PM PST via iPhone app reply actions 9 recs
You bastard.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
Ha!
iPhone app. rules!
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 2, 2012 2:40 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
Sometimes
Sometimes it doesn’t show all the comments.
by Lotusprime on Jan 2, 2012 3:09 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Next time, get about a dozen together and have a mass debate.
Lots of guys on here are chronic mass debaters.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
by andy sims on Jan 2, 2012 2:37 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I think many of us have a hard time taking part in mass debating
being far too busy partaking in large quantities of mastication.
This:
My greatest fear with DeMarcus is that he’ll become a player who finally grows up and lives to his potential, but on another team. I don’t want to see that happen, and it’s going to take a lot of work from both the organization and DeMarcus to ensure it doesn’t.
I hope the organization can work out a solution to diffuse the current situation, so that all players can work and grow to their full potential for betterment of the team.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Agreed 100%
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 2, 2012 2:43 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
Excellent job you two
Very thought provoking.
by LightningStrike5 on Jan 2, 2012 2:42 PM PST reply actions
All I can say is the Timberwolves
have half our talent but their teamwork is beautiful. The reason behind this is of course Rick Adelman. The Kings have much talent and respectable depth, yet the players have no idea what to do on court. It doesn’t take a professional basketball scientist to see that Westphal is not a good coach. The best solution would be indeed to fire Westphal but not because of Cousins, but because of his inability to coach well. Given the timing of the fight with DMC, I don’t know how this can be done.
Great debate. Enjoyed it!
Bleeding Black and Purple 6710 miles South East of Sacramento.
by ZenBaller on Jan 2, 2012 2:43 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Half?
Love, Rubio, Beasley (Who’s talented but a headcase like our DMC), Williams plus the supporting cast which is solid to lottery team standards.
I would not claim they have half the talent as our team.
"And Solskjaer has won it!"
by 'tough as nails' spence on Jan 2, 2012 2:46 PM PST up reply actions
Yea the phrase "half the talent" is an exaggeration
I should have said around 70%. My point still stands.
Bleeding Black and Purple 6710 miles South East of Sacramento.
Doesnt hurt to have a cat like Love throwing down these numbers:
2011-12 Statistics
PPG
25.8
RPG
15.30
APG
2.8
EFF
+ 30.25
The endless pounding.
A hole, blacker than despair.
John Salmons is back.
by twasserm on Jun 23, 2011
I don't see how the Timberwolves are less talented at all
much less half as talented. They have Rubio, Love, Beasley, Derrek Williams, Wesley Johnson, and J.J. Barea. 1 through 6 you could argue that they’re more talented.
Rubio and Kevin Love are better passers than any player on the Kings
The Kings have three players in the starting lineup that would love to pound the ball and play one-on-one all game. Bit of a difference there too.
Who's right and who's wrong, Who Cares
the question is “Did DeMarcus do something so terribly wrong that he needed to be sent home and made an example of?”
If the answer is yes, then why wasn’t formal action taken against him? The FO could have Suspended him, but then an appeal to the league by the union would have brought all the facts out into the open. And, in my mind that would have made the coach and the FO look bad. Overacting just like they did with the chocking incident last season.
Yes, the FO and owners had to back the coach so it didn’t look like the inmates were running the asylum. But, that doesn’t mean that the warden shouldn’t be an inmate himself or that the FO doesn’t wish that they hadn’t gotten rid of Westphal last season. The fact is that Cousins has more value to the franchise then Westphal does, and he’s not going to save his job by losing control of his temper or gaining control of the team thru fear.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Jan 2, 2012 2:57 PM PST reply actions 8 recs
Cousins
Needed a timeout just like a 5 year old kid pretty simple
I love a team that never quits
by Howard Nevens IV on Jan 2, 2012 3:01 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
the FO should convert that corner of Arco with the recliners to Cousins' timeout area.
"First we get jobs, then we get the khakis, then we get the chicks."
That's not true
a player can’t appeal a team suspension, only a suspension from the league. The league doesn’t suspend players for being selfish and pissing off their coaches. A player on team suspension still gets paid.
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
awesome read
Thank you very much enjoyed reading both sides of the argument
I love a team that never quits
by Howard Nevens IV on Jan 2, 2012 2:59 PM PST via mobile reply actions
It would be interesting
To get some insight from some of the players that Westphal coached during his tenure in Phoenix and see how it is that he was able to coach Charles Barkley with such a great degree of success.
Well if it means anything (and it probably doesn't)
Barkley woud always blame the Kings players if they ever played bad, and would defend Westphal with a “he is one of my favorite coaches and I feel sorry for him” line.
Never Turn Back - Crush 40
Being a Fan: 10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain, and 100% reason to remember the name!
Anything that gets andy sims engaged and commenting is good with me
My POV is more represented by G’s side of the debate though I have made most of Akis’s points in the threads that popped up before and after the Hornets game.
I don’t think that considering whether DMC’s statements were a trade demand or not is simply semantics or parsing his words. My main point is that to me this sounds more like a domestic argument than a trade demand. In the heat of the moment many happily married people have said something to the effect “why don’t you just divorce me then” when the last thing they want is a divorce.
My secondary point is that Westphal is a weak leader who is unable to deal with entitled and petulant attitude of the modern athlete. A strong leader does’t need to get mad to make emphatic points that make that he is not screwing around. He may have anger in his tool kit but he doesn’t need to bring it very often because his players will get used to it and tune it out. G’s point about how Westphal has dealt with difficult players in the past is spot on.
My last point is that I believe Petrie let Westphal throw himself under the bus by allowing him to issue the extremely ill advised and poorly written press release. Whether Westphal will be fired or let go at the end of the season is no longer an if or when issue. If has been taken off the table and now it is simply a matter of when.
Frances Amthor: I think you're a very stupid person. You look stupid, you're in a stupid business, and you're on a stupid case.
Philip Marlowe: I get it. I'm stupid Farewell My Lovely (1975)
And in this vein I get what I want how I want it because I am the customer. You might want to remember that you thieving scumbag mongrel bitches.
nate21h@evilcowtowninc.com
by Bluejohn on Jan 2, 2012 3:39 PM PST reply actions 5 recs
Kings better with Cousins out of the lineup
To anybody who has suffered through the last three games prior to last night, you know that in addition to free throws and transition defense, the glaring problems were were ball movement, rhythm on offense, team play. The team was playing tense and out of synch, completely detached from what the coaching staff was trying to accomplish. Well guess what boys and girls, last night they played relaxed, in pretty good flowing rythm, and everybody actually seemed to be playing together with a team approach to winning. What was different? The pouting, petulent, spoiled, whiny, selfish Cousins was not even in the building. You could feel the lack of anxiety and attitude through the TV screen. DeMarcus is quickly becoming the stumbling block to this team progressing, and his lack of professionalism is appaling. If he doesnt turn his attitude around fast, he will become a cancer that consumes this team, and despite his talent, he needs to go. We will find a way to win without him.
One game?
A little too soon?
I mean, they played good with Demarcus in the opener, right?
Never Turn Back - Crush 40
Being a Fan: 10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain, and 100% reason to remember the name!
You could have inserted DMC into that game and the same things happen
Also played a NO team without their best player instead of the Lakers, Blazers, Bulls or Knicks.
"First we get jobs, then we get the khakis, then we get the chicks."
Maybe The Kings need to have a good ol'e fashioned blanket party

No, I never said "Hey sweetheart I'm Rookie of the Year." I told her "I'm Tyreke Evans" though............Tyreke Evans
Do you think of this?

No, I never said "Hey sweetheart I'm Rookie of the Year." I told her "I'm Tyreke Evans" though............Tyreke Evans
Excellent commentary all around!
HighTops and others are spot on. Demarcus continues to have outbursts and Westphal, IMHO “showed his hand” with his quick, decisive, and I think divisive, commentary to the media. Advantage no one!
Side note: I flew thru Phoenix over the Christmas weekend and sat next to a retired Phoenix area High School Basketball coach with a coaching time-line traveling thru (and against) Bibby’s high school teams and Westphal’s run with the Suns. Two hours of commentary on all things basketball. Super cool big time hoops fan. Details of Bibby being a super talented, dominant, game-winning punk with a posse and Westphal alienating his players and others because of his EGO….Had never heard that about Westphal until that conversation. Fascinating timing.
by Crowny on Jan 2, 2012 4:12 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Wow
Stay Thirsty My Friends
WONK
Etymology - origin unknown
Function - Noun
Definition - A person preoccuped with arcane details or procedures in a specialized field; broadly, NERD; especially someone young who focuses on one topic or subject to the near exclusion of all other topics.
The only other thing that I will find disappointing is that now DeMarcus and his agent will conduct their rebuttal via twitter
I fully expect the Sports Agents network (Dan Fegan) to run Kings torpedos over the next two weeks.
How to demean the coach and the franchise in multiple 140 characters or less tweets.
This sounds like the same internal debate that I have been having with myself
I do not know a “right” way to handle this situation, but my gut feeling is that it should be kept in house. I’m fine with the suspension of Cousins, but the explanation should not be coming from the coach. A 1-line explanation from the GM would suffice. I get the desire to diffuse rumors, but this is poor execution at best. Even in that case, I would prefer to see that announcement from the GM or a standard press release channel.
In my opinion, Cousins needs more consistent and structured reinforcement of positive and negative behavior. If he is choosing to not run the offense correctly in the game, pull him immediately. If he is not doing it in practice, let him take a seat. If he has a problem with taking a seat, send him home. If this is truly the tip of the iceberg, this should not be the first we are hearing about it.
They are not helping anyone – and especially not Cousins – by letting things build up to that point. There is no way for a team to function with one of the key cogs not in synch.

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