George Karl's 'More Playmakers' Philosophy
by Tom Ziller on Jan 23, 2012 10:24 AM PST
in Commentary
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PrintMike Prada talked to Nuggets coach George Karl about Denver's success playing two point guards -- Ty Lawson and Andre Miller -- together frequently. The insight is particularly interesting for those of us watching the Kings this season.
[Y]ou get the sense that Karl really does believe this is the way to win. When asked to elaborate more on why having multiple point guards on the floor is good, he responds rhetorically, "Isn't it more important to have good decisions than position players?" Later, he puts it more bluntly: "The more playmakers you put on the court, the better you play."
That philosophy defines the Nuggets. Without a true offensive superstar, Karl's offense relies on constant motion. Playmaking gets split between Lawson, Miller, shooting guard Arron Afflalo, ace small forward Danilo Gallinari ... basically, anyone who has the ball. The offense works well no matter who plays, but the offense really works well when the best playmakers are all in. This year, that's been Lawson and Miller.
Some would argue, of course, that the Kings have no point guards, let alone two suitable to play together. But Karl's philosophy -- "the more playmakers you put on the court, the better you play" -- and that of Geoff Petrie tend to match. This is the Vlade-Webber transposition of the early 2000s, but flipped. Petrie has always valued ball skills and playmaking ability highly, along with shooting. The only two first-round picks Petrie has used on players who weren't abnormally skilled at passing or handling for their position or could shoot the lights up have been Gerald Wallace (who was considered a pure athlete more than anything) and Omri Casspi (ditto -- a tough athlete). Peja was a shooter. J-Will one of the nation's best, most creative passers. Hedo, Quincy Douby, Kevin Martin, Francisco Garcia, Spencer Hawes, Tyreke Evans, DeMarcus Cousins, Jimmer Fredette ... even Jason Thompson was a case in which Petrie went with the double-double small conference player who grew up as a guard and could pass the ball. (That aspect of JT's game hasn't exactly translated, though I feel comfortable with him handling the rock some.)
Free agent signings and trades have been similar: Vlade and Webber, later Brad Miller, John Salmons (twice). It hasn't been nearly as unanimous on the transaction side, as there are plenty of Bonzis, Ron-Rons and Jim Jacksons, brought in for other (usually defensive) reasons.
But Petrie definitely seems to agree with Karl's philosophy on having as many playmakers as possible. Unfortunately, many of the playmakers that he has collected on this roster are not doing a great job of making plays. Tyreke has looked much, much better after being given a playbook by Keith Smart, and he's a real-deal playmaker. Jimmer and Cousins? The jury's out. Salmons? The jury is in tears. Thornton? No. Garcia? No. Thompson? No. Hayes? We'll see. Isaiah Thomas? Definitely.
Karl has the luxury of two great point guards, which allows him to exploit the advantage. The Kings have one good point guard right now, and one rookie second-round pick who can do the job but brings other challenges to the table. When Jimmer can string together multiple good games and find his place in lineups that feature Reke, we'll have another glance at whether this is a workable philosophy with this roster ... and whether Smart is on-board. (He'd seem to be, as he put together a No. 11 offense with Stephen Curry and Monta Ellis starting together.
***
I encourage you to check out Prada's full column. Karl's a fascinating figure.
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I've been saying this for awhile
It doesn’t matter that Tyreke’s not a pure PG. We don’t need to get all of our passing from one guy. We have multiple players that can move the ball quite well. We’ve just been lacking the offensive system to utilize that. Smart’s been better about it. Hopefully we keep moving forward in the passing department
"What the fuck did I do?" - McNulty
by vfettke on Jan 23, 2012 10:27 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Don't see the multiple players taht can move the ball quite well
by wallywagon11 on Jan 23, 2012 11:03 AM PST up reply actions
Reke, Jimmer, Hayes, Cousins, Salmons in theory, Thomas, Honeycut in theory, JT for a 3rd big
I don’t think those skills were well utilized under PW. Smart is moving in a good direction, but well see where it goes.
The word "can" only implies an ability to do something. He did not mention it included a willingness.
"First we get jobs, then we get the khakis, then we get the chicks."
by Wonderchild on Jan 23, 2012 12:25 PM PST up reply actions
Umm...
DeMarcus and Chuck are both really solid passers
JT used to play guard early in college, till he hit a growth spurt and became a big man. He’s a pretty good passer.
Reke isn’t a great passer but is good at it.
Isaiah is a good passer.
Jimmer’s passing needs some work, but he hasn’t been required to in a long time.
"What the fuck did I do?" - McNulty
That's only true if Tyreke stays engaged when's he's playing off the ball
All too often he’s standing around the 3 pt line and watching, feet not set, not even pretending to be a threat until/unless the ball comes to him.
He must either cut to the basket, draw his man off the play – or pretend he’s set for a spot up shot.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Jan 23, 2012 11:17 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Lol,
That is because he knows he can’t shoot worth dick. Can he get his feet set and pretend like he is going to drain a wide open jumper?…Yes, absolutely, but I don’t think that is going to make any difference until he can consistently make his open jumpers…why would anyone guard reke at the 3 line when he doesn’t have the ball?
What else can tyreke really do to help this off ball movement? I'm not trying to argue, just want to know..
His inability to hit wide open jumpers really hurts reke because it is real tough for him to help this team otherwise. IMO the more tyreke plays away from the ball, the more we are misusing his talent. I’m not saying he shouldn’t learn to play off the ball and help the ball movement, but we need a Pure shooter paired with reke and I hope jimmer can become exactly that. I just wish he had some type of stroke, how many times has tyreke got WIDE open jumpers and no one even seems to close out on him because they know more likely that he will miss
I agree Evans is better on ball and needs to become a better shooter
However, cutting and moving provided a huge boost. With his speed and strength, he should be able to dart to the post and get some easy back-cut layups or even post up smaller guards directly underneath the basket. And he can hit threes (21%, but still). So he needs to stay alert and make his defender pay attention. Moving along the baseline or cutting to the opposite corner can bring his man away from the screen and roll and clear congestion on offense.
This is what I had in mind.
I agree completely
Another thing I’ve realized of late, ball movement is useless without player movement
"What the fuck did I do?" - McNulty
Garcia is a fantastic playmaker in transition.
Transition for the other team that is, when he’s throwing the ball cross-court and into the defenders hands, setting up the 3 on 1 at the other end. I just want to choke the guy out most of the time…
Sound the trumpets, Raise the drawbridge, and drop the Oldsmobile
I think it's weird how we all have our own venting targets
Cisco doesn’t make the top 5 on this team, for me at least.
Outlaw
Salmons
Hickson
Jimmer
Greene (although he could be on the verge of moving of the list)
35 and 31. I'm calling it now. Reke and Cousins 1-2 in most improved award both All-stars. Jimmer leads rookies in scoring, passing and Ole's. Make 2nd round of playoffs and Salmons is not here by seasons end.
I like this perspective and have high hopes for Smart... That said.
I would be a bit cautious about judging our players performance as playmakers. We have had a consistent deficit at the coaching level with coach after coach not understanding how to best use their players and consistently misusing them.
Tyreke Evans under PW this season was not used to push into the paint and pass out. The ball handling was supposed to be from side to side and through a high posted big. They just didn’t have him penetrate to collapse the defense and pass out to those now open. Actually this goes back much farther than just this year with PW clearly focused on Tyreke’s slashing ability rather than passing to run plays.
Spencer Hawes got pounded by the coaching staff and many fans for not being able to bang down low. Pushed to do something that wasn’t his strength and fill a deficit in the roster rather than play to his strength. He was a high post facilitator and play maker. It is true that he needed more body strength and has more of that now, but until he got there they could have used him more effectively.
Our bigs are in a bit of a different situation. They are being used in a limited fashion, but for good reason. Cousins is being used in the paint because of his crazy hands and ability to rebound. JT is in a similar position in that he rebounds well and plays the post. If either of them were posted up higher with plays run to pass in to cutters from the elbows rahter than have to score all the time you might see some play making, especially from Cousins, but the team needs rebounding badly cause they are shooting so poorly so down low they stay.
I would argue that Jimmer was not used well when Smart first took over the team. Smart said he wanted Jimmer on the floor as a playmaker and clearly Jimmer had to re-think his whole approach. He stopped playing the game that came naturally to him and tried to be somebody he is not. Glad to see that has been corrected now. Not that Jimmer can’t make plays, but he needs to be used within the offense so that he can play his game. Cause this kid’s has got game.
Garcia and every other wing… They have just been used to maintain space, shoot, and execute defensively. There has been no game plan that really calls on them to do more than pass into a big isolating in the low post. I think we may be starting to see more attempts at screens and cutting, but that SF position has had an extremely limited role on this team for a long time.
All of that said, there have been a few possession where I have seen great passing by this team. Smart seems to be focusing on re-shaping the offense and I like his emphasis on how to play players. Just play the game as it comes naturally to you. That says to me he plans to shape the offense so that the games of the players mesh with it. Rather that dictate an offense that all the players have to conform to, no matter their skills and abilities.
"I gotta have more cowbell"
by CowbellKings on Jan 23, 2012 11:07 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
I think Petries philosophy has changed
The more scorers you have, the better you score. Who needs passing when you can score in isolation.
by Chent on Jan 23, 2012 11:10 AM PST via mobile reply actions
When did he change his philosophy...
before or after he traded away Beno?
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Do the Kings really need
an out-of-shape PG with no defensive skills who is currently averaging 7ppg, 1.8 PRG, 2APG while shooting 16% from downtown?
Beno gave us a nice season and a half, but there hasn’t been a single player in this deal making the other teams regret the trade. Beno, SJax, Maggette, & Salmons have all been pretty miserable.
I am looking at the playmaking skills Beno demonstrated while he was playing for us with Reke and Thorton.
“The more playmakers you put on the court, the better you play.”
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
I think the goal is to have Jimmer fill his role
And while Salmons has been bad this year, I’m not sure he is a break from the “playmaker” philosophy.
In theory, he could shoot, drive and pass from the SF position. Hate on Salmons style of play, but he at least fit the description of playmaker from our weakest position. He certainly has/had more playmaking ability than Garcia/Greene/Casspi.
I am trying to recall the rationale Petrie gave for what I believe was his and Westphal's idea to trade Beno for Salmons.
I don’t know who came up with the idea, but I suspect it was PW’s.
I recall media statements, one by PW the other Petrie, along the lines of what you are saying; the goal was for Jimmer to fill the PG/playmaker role. Beno was traded since his skill set would be redundant (since ostensibly) those would be filled by Jimmer. They brought in Salmons to provide greater defense (since ostensibly) Beno was miserable in this area. Oh, and I think Petrie did make some comment along the lines of Salmon’s playmaker skills.
I felt at the time it was a mistake (rephrase: risky move), because I believed it was too soon to assess if or how Jimmer would fit that role as a rookie, as a starter, at an NBA level.
I tend to agree with you on what the goal was – Jimmer to fill the playmaker role, with Salmons sharing some of those skills along with bringing more defense. It all sounded good in theory, or at least looked good on paper, but didn’t work out so well in practical terms.
If Jimmer can get up to speed as a playmaker, at the NBA level, and Salmons reclaim some of his mojo, then there is the possibility the goal can be achieved. I still think it was a bad trade. We still could have gotten Jimmer, kept Beno, without taking back Salmons.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
It also has to do with how Smart uses Salmons from here on out.
PW had him standing in the corner and wait for the ball. That is nowhere near his forte, and completely made him beyond useless on the offensive side of the ball.
Salmons is a guy that thrives more on the wing, where he can better use his dribble-drive skills. Unfortunately, that is where Tyreke is most productive as well. This is the reason why I questioned the Salmons/Beno trade.
"First we get jobs, then we get the khakis, then we get the chicks."
by Wonderchild on Jan 23, 2012 12:39 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with you on all your points.
There are a lot of us who have questioned the Salmons/Beno trade from different points-of-view.
Smart didn’t have a say in that trade. If he did, it probably never would have happened. Smart has to play the hand he is dealt.
It is like sitting down to play a game of chess, but as you set your pieces on the board, you discover that instead of having two bishops and two knights, one of your bishops was traded off by the last player and your set has only one bishop, with three knights. You may not be happy with the pieces you were provided, but you play them anyway.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
I agree with you
Although, if we hadn’t made the trade, we’d be hating on Beno (if he was playing anything like he’s playing for the Bucks this year) and would have an even bigger hole at SF.
I was fine with the trade, though I wish we had gotten more back for moving down in the draft. Either way, Beno or Salmons were both likely amnesty candidates after this season. The real mistake to me was not getting a veteran PG to come play backup as Jimmer learned. And to steady this young team when they diverted from running the offense during games.
I think Beno would have been fine had he stayed.
To me, he would have been the veteran PG, who would have been the glue until Jimmer learned the ropes. But, understanding your position, since you are not the fan of Beno, as I am, I agree they could have gotten a veteran PG. I am not sure who that would have been. (Chris Paul would have been wonderful, although Maloofs probably wouldn’t have offered enough, Paul wouldn’t have wanted to come here, and Stern would have surely vetoed it, if there was the remote possibility of it happening.)
I know Beno hasn’t played well for the Buck’s this season, but given how he played here last season, I would have expected pretty much the same.
But, the whole thing is water under the bridge, at this point.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Understand where you are coming from
In terms of vet PGs, I would have targeted someone like Earl Watson. Not spectacular player, but a vet presence and someone who is imminently beatable for minutes as Jimmer improved.
You may be right about Beno. Just disconcerting that he showed up to camp out of shape. He’s had that issue in the past, so it’s disconcerting. Not sure it would have been different here.
I sense a chasm
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Jan 23, 2012 11:19 AM PST up reply actions
That was the turning point in his philsophy
“I’m going to trade away our best playmaker on the team, Grab another scorer. Then draft a pg who was the best scorer in the nation in college, so he can contribute some scoring to the team. Our main priority this off season for free agency is to retain 1 of our best scorers, were not even going to let him test the market with his RFA status, he’s ours. Then well sign a defensive guy to confuse other teams, that’s our scheme”.
by Chent on Jan 23, 2012 11:29 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
You get the sense that Karl really does believe this is the way to win.
Depends on who you got, that’s probably Karl’s only option, but I’d rather have one CP3 plus a 2 guard than Lawson and Miller.
For example the Warriors have had bad results with two combo guards curry and Ellis but had good results with point guard BaronDavis and Ellis.
Tyreke seems more like an Ellis than a Baron Davis so i’d find a real point to work with him instead of another combo guard, that way Evans could just concentrate on the scoring and let the real point work on play making.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 23, 2012 11:19 AM PST reply actions
That style is sure fun to watch
It takes a willingness not only by the ball handler to pass up the court, it also takes players upcourt to be ready, see the floor and create those passing lanes for the opportunity.
If no one is looking, moving and asking for the ball . . .
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
IMO,
Ty Lawson is no better at playmaking than Tyreke. Does synergy or something disagree?
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 23, 2012 11:46 AM PST reply actions
Not too sure what synergy would matter here
Stats are based on their current system. In Karl’s system, Evans would probably have many more opportunities for assists than PW’s system. We’ve seen him playing better (or at least distributing better) since Smart has started installing more of an offense and move off ball movement. And we’d be lucky if Smart is anywhere near the coach that Karl is.
I would pick Lawson over Reke personally
Better assist rate
Better assist to turnover rate
Better at getting assists at the rim
by wallywagon11 on Jan 23, 2012 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
Well I guess we'll see
I guess we’ll always have the excuse that there was no offseason for Smart and they are practicing on the fly.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 23, 2012 1:27 PM PST up reply actions
The team has already started looking better to me & it's no coincidence Reke's assists have gone up
He may have learned some, but a lot of it is increased movement. I think the longer Smart is the coach, the more painful PW’s tenure will look in retrospect.
If the trends under Smart continue
Reke still likely not reaching Lawson in those categories.
Just sayin.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 23, 2012 1:35 PM PST up reply actions
by the way
certaintly not saying I want Lawson over Reke
by wallywagon11 on Jan 23, 2012 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
Perfect Timing
This seems to jive somewhat with the rumors that GP may be looking at a bona fide PG, possibly like a Hinrich. I for one would love that for this very reason. Reke seemed to excel last year with Beno next to him, helping him ease off a little when needed to become a primary shooting option or tackle rebounds while the complement did the bulk of the passing and play calling. Thornton does not have a vocal or “pass first” presence, nor does Tyreke, so that creates challenges. Someone like Hinrich or Isaiah Thomas jumps out due to their pass-first mentality in a sea of dribbling. I think I would love to see that. While it wouldn’t solve all of problems at the minute (such as adding able defensive, sharp—shooting SF), it’s a start. Although there may be such a SF available on the East Coast with a fairly large contract and a Championship pedigree we may want to take a stab at.
This seems to jive somewhat with the rumors that GP may be looking at a bona fide PG
What rumors exactly?
by wallywagon11 on Jan 23, 2012 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with Ww11
KS what have you heard? Link?
35 and 31. I'm calling it now. Reke and Cousins 1-2 in most improved award both All-stars. Jimmer leads rookies in scoring, passing and Ole's. Make 2nd round of playoffs and Salmons is not here by seasons end.
I wonder what his answer would have been back in 2008 when they had Billups & Jones
And, made it all the way to the Western Finals.
Yes you can work it with 2 good play-makers if they are also all around good player at both ends of the floor. But, this is just a politically correct statement coming out of a coach.
If neither could defend or hit an outside shot, he’d probably say the same thing. But since both are natural play-makers all he has to do is work on the other 3 players to get them working to get open. If the rest of the line-up where standing around where the defender can easily cut off the passing lane, he’d end up with 2 play-makers with no one to make plays for.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
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