What Happened to You, Jimmer Fredette?
The great Sebastian Pruiti breaks down Jimmer's early struggles. A very thorough breakdown, well worth your time.
27 days ago
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Jimmer will be ROY! People are sleeping on Jimmer, screw rubio and irving!
by CousinsEvansDUO on Jan 26, 2012 10:41 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
That would be a heckuva story
I don’t even think that he’d get a rookie-soph all star game invite right now.
Irving, Rubio, Brooks, Parsons, Williams, Leonard, Walker, Markieff Morris, Cole, Knight and Shumpert have all been better in legit minutes, and even Vucevic, Leuer, Kanter, Burcs, Tobias Harris, and Tristan Thompson have been better in limited minutes. Hyperbole aside, one could argue that Fredette has not even been the best rookie on the Kings to this point this year.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 26, 2012 11:11 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Did the great 'Chasmer himself just get 'Chasmed?
Sanka....you dead? Ya Man
by prowseinthehouse on Jan 26, 2012 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
How so?
It’s not exactly news that Jimmer is struggling. Sebastian simply breaks things down and explains why he’s struggling, which is good to understand. He also talks about the improvement over the last couple of games.
Additionally, this article inspired me to take a look at Rip Hamilton’s rookie stats. Comparisons to any players stats from this season are dangerous because of the small sample, but Jimmer compares very favorably to Rip on a per minute basis and in advanced stats. Considering how much Jimmer has struggled, I think that’s a positive. I don’t know what Rip’s struggles were during his rookie season, but the stats demonstrate that improvement is very possible.
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Good job
You nailed it. That was totally my point.
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I'm not saying it is a bad article, but some of the thing he points out can't be fixed
Fredette lacks the athletic ability to finish over help defenders
and
Fredette lacks the quickness to fight over screens and get back in front of his man.
and
His best hope on defense is to play off his man and hope he misses a long jumper.
by elSAVinator on Jan 26, 2012 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
he can fix some of that
granted won’t all happen this year but even just correct technique alone could help him some until the offseason.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 11:13 AM PST up reply actions
I agree
Which is why I find this article interesting, but it’s pretty easy to make a highlight package of a players worst plays and fill in the blanks. I bet I could make some highlight packages of when he has handled the pick and rolls well this year, or made good passes when he drives and he would look like an all-star.
by elSAVinator on Jan 26, 2012 11:17 AM PST up reply actions
+1
I’m actually pretty happy with the way he has played this year. Started off bad, but he had no LV league, shortened preseason, and without a lot of athleticism, it was going to be a big adjustment. He has already started adjusting his game though, which makes me have some hope for the future. The NBA is all about adjustments and he appears to be making them.
by elSAVinator on Jan 26, 2012 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
well, so what?
It’s not like he’s damning Jimmer to hell of suckassdom here. It’s just pointing out some of his struggles. I am sure it’s not even 100% accurate (never are these things 100% accurage). So what? There are some relative points to what we’ve seen but yeah it’s early in his first year. He could turn it around. He right now is playing the best he has played this year.
Maybe he’s figuring it out?
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 11:21 AM PST up reply actions
I agree, I mean we are talking about Bill Simmons' website after all...
Isn’t he the president of the Small Sample Size Institute?
"First we get jobs, then we get the khakis, then we get the chicks."
by Wonderchild on Jan 26, 2012 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
Maybe, but Sebastian is a great analyst and has never seemed to me to be anything but impartial and a huge fan of basketball
His other site, whose name escapes me at the moment, is noting but this sort of breakdown. It’s worth checking out.
by lead_pipe on Jan 26, 2012 12:22 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I dunno if he can truly be impartial and not make judgments, it's really hard to pull it off and I do think he does in fact make at least one snap judgment here that I would think is "scathing" or too severe
that being said, it’s still worth reading and the guy does blatantly point out the SSS at the end.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
Right, I guess I meant that he's never appeared to me to have a rooting interest or be unfairly biased against a team or player
Hollinger and the Kings springs to mind.
I'm at work, so I only glanced through the article...
…didnt see the reference to the SSS at the end. It is a great read from what I did get through though. I will read it in more detail later.
"First we get jobs, then we get the khakis, then we get the chicks."
He won't be the next Gary Payton, but that's not exactly bad
Steve Nash can’t really do any of those things, but he’s gotten smart enough to know how to work around his limitations.
Even Jose Calderon is a solid PG despide his struggles with the same things and Jose never really fixed these issues.
As for the comparison to Rip, I think that falls on the coaching staff. If they expect Jimmer to be like Rip and Ray Allen, then you need to have him constantly running off screens. I almost think that he would be better in this role until he develops his PG skills enough to run our team.
by SharkKings49 on Jan 26, 2012 11:22 AM PST up reply actions
Having him run of screens would be great and all, but I much rather have him master the pick and roll
He has the ability to be deadly on the pick and rolls. You don’t have to be mega athletic to master this. He has the shooting and passing skills to be effective in the pick and roll. He just needs more time to learn how to run it effectively.
by elSAVinator on Jan 26, 2012 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
I remember a small, unathletic PG
by the name of Stockton who managed to master the pick and roll. It can be done. But I still love the idea of running more screens for the guy, so he can set, square, and shoot.
It’s not only him adjusting to the league, but also the Kings coaching staff and players adjusting to Jimmer.
kind of funny actually
I was always under the impression that the pick and roll had little to do with elite athleticism to begin with, that is other than being a threat to go to the rack and score.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
Stockton was athletic.
He wouldn’t have been the defender he was without it. And Stockton was a very gifted passer. I don’t think he ever struggled running the pick n roll. He mastered it yes, but his floor was already way above where Jimmers currently is.
by sac_faithful on Jan 26, 2012 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
Bear claws
I’m telling you, his hands make a pita from Pita Pit look like half a bread stick
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 12:33 PM PST up reply actions
I did see one play last night that showed his off the ball skills
He ran around everyone, under the backboard (Reggie Miller style) and got the pass from IT to make a three on the wing. I would really like to see more of this (not just from Jimmer either).
Jimmer definitely has played better with Tyreke or IT running the point thus far in the season.
"First we get jobs, then we get the khakis, then we get the chicks."
John Stockton had muscles coming out of his muscles.
His biceps had biceps.
"Cousins is the Blaster to Evans’ Master, the Hammer to Evans’ Sickle"- HP
by tomroadrunner on Jan 27, 2012 7:08 AM PST up reply actions
1. His floater and pull up game can deal with that
(and we’ve seen that lately… There aren’t many guards capable of “finishing over” a help defender)
2. Maybe. I dont know that we’ve seen enough of him yet to conclude he’s that bad at this particular skill. He also comes from a college system that asked him to play no defense, and he had an abbreviated training camp with a bad coach on a team that plays shitty defense at best as a group.
3. This describes half the guards in the nba. You want most guards to shoot a long jumper. The problem is the layup line we give up and that is a team issue.
Jimmers been underwhelming, no doubt. But I still believe he will be very good. He just simply is not going to miss as many open shots as he has. all those points he scored in college weren’t a mirage.
by lchristmas on Jan 26, 2012 12:23 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
You think this Pruiti guy is great? Not close.
Shoddy analysis, at best. Not impressed by isolated clips and sweeping conclusions.
If Jimmer becomes a star in the NBA, it will be because he has molded his game after the likes of Deron Williams and Steve Nash, PGs who can take over game with shooting and passing, not catch and shoot guys like Ray Allen, Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton.
So right there this author misrepresents Jimmer’s skill set. The ability of Jimmer is to make plays with the ball in his hands, not wait for a PG to set him up.
Jimmer has shown really good PG instincts so far, and we are witnessing a learning curve accelerate in the last 3 games. The mistakes he has been making are attributable to adjusting to higher level of competition, that’s all, and adjusting to lesser role within offense.
Not lack of confidence, not poor athletic ability, not inability to play pick and roll, and not as I have read elsewhere, forgetting that his fans want him to shoot.
This column fails to recognize the comfort and poise Jimmer is gaining on the court. First or second possession last night was prime example. He did not force a 3 pointer with shot clock winding down. Instead he drove into seam of defense and swished 16 footer as shot clock expired. Most rookies do not make that play.
The 20 games played so far is about equivalent to a full summer league and full pre-season schedule. I expect Jimmer’s game to start to blossom, w/ 15 points a game and 5 assists put up regularly.
Smart Era, y'all.
by bench_blob on Jan 26, 2012 10:58 AM PST reply actions 5 recs
Regardless of the article, if Jimmer wants to make a name for himself in the league he needs to learn how to run the NBA point
but Pruiti pretty much says it’s too early to write off Jimmer, could (even as a point guard) benefit from learning how to move without the ball, and the side screens still involve Jimmer handling the ball.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 11:10 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Bingo
Blob, he discusses those players specifically in response to an identified weakness. He identifies that Jimmer has struggled with movement off the ball. Great point guards should still be able to move well off the ball, and catch and shoot when the opportunity presents itself. Particularly if you want him to be a point guard who can take over with his shooting.
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by Exhibit G on Jan 26, 2012 12:51 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I, for one, do not agree
with his assessment that Jimmer’s weakness is shooting off the dribble. Seems to me like he can get a shot off whenever he wants, especially with his cross-over behind the 3pt line.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 26, 2012 1:33 PM PST up reply actions
That cross over behind the 3pt line is his signature move imo
its getting his shot off in the lane which is the problem.
by sac_faithful on Jan 26, 2012 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with you.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
partially strongly disagree -he needs to do both
Hes a deadly catch and shoot marksman and for a team to fail to take advantage of that skill is criminal.
by lchristmas on Jan 26, 2012 12:27 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I agree, does he truly believe that the entire problem rests with Jimmer and not the Bigs he's working with
Are Tyreke’s numbers any better running or defending the screen and roll. What I’m seeing is double teams coming off of every pick. They trap the ball and ignore the screener because none of our screener can shot from outside, cut to the basket or even move to create a passing lane for Jimmer or Tyreke to pass out of the double.
At 6-2 with limited vertical on his jumpshot, Jimmer will never be successful as a catch and shoot type player. Where he is good is off the dribble, or by moving left or right to create space. If he doesn’t become a decent PG I would be surprised, and he’d truly be a wasted draft pick.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Jan 26, 2012 12:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I would not be shocked at all if Pruiti only looked at Jimmer and perhaps Isaiah
and didn’t look at Thornton or Reke.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
Totally agree
What I’m seeing is double teams coming off of every pick. They trap the ball and ignore the screener because none of our screener can shot from outside, cut to the basket or even move to create a passing lane for Jimmer or Tyreke to pass out of the double.
JJ and JT are terrible, total non-threats when defenders leave them to double guard. DeMarcus is better, but sometimes slow to read and react. When Chuck Hayes comes back, I think we will see a player more efficient at timing pick and using wide body.
Chuckwagon knows when to set and hold pick, and when to release, not just flit about the court aimlessly like the Jay Bros tend to do. I recall a few times Hayes rolled to hoop effectively to catch and finish too.
Jimmer has good elevation on his jumper, though. In fact that is one of the adjustments he has to make in the pros. It takes him longer to get off his shot, because he doesn’t have a quick, set shot release like a Stephen Curry.
Smart Era, y'all.
I thought he has a super high vertical on his jump shot...
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 26, 2012 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
That's going to hurt his chances in the 3pt contest this year. Gonna be tired by the finals.
"First we get jobs, then we get the khakis, then we get the chicks."
Playing every minute at BYU as the only option > 3 rounds of 25 3's.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 26, 2012 3:12 PM PST up reply actions
If he was to ever enter the 3 pt shooting contest he would shoot those shots differently
Watching him @ Combine or @ individual pre-draft workouts they always showed him barely jumping on uncontested 3’s and if you watch during a game if he is unguarded and he’s shooting one of those 30 ft bombs he shoots it more like a set shot
maybe that is something he has fixed in the last few games or so...
..but that shot where he super-jumps just doesn’t look natural. It looks like when playing NBA2k and you hold the shoot button down too long and do not release at the peak.
"First we get jobs, then we get the khakis, then we get the chicks."
but that shot where he super-jumps just doesn’t look natural. It looks like when playing NBA2k and you hold the shoot button down too long
Nate Robinson style?
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 27, 2012 11:14 AM PST up reply actions
It's kind of like rebounding where a 7 footer may not be the best rebounder
because you don’t rebound with your head. The 6-9 player with long arms and good vertical can out rebound a 7 footer that rebounds flat footed.
Jimmer might get his feet up pretty high, but he’s still 6-2 at best with average arm length. He was 17th in standing vertical among PG’s tested at just 28 inches the Average standing vertical for PG’s tested was 29.3 inches. Alec Burks, a SG, was tested at 6-6 with shoes and had an 11 foot standing reach plus a max vertical of 36". Almost every SG tested had a standing reach of over 10’ 7".
When they test the no step vertical the players are squatting down to and reaching up as high as they can, which is no way similar to taking a jumpshot. And, when he does take a jump shot the ball starts from just about the top of the head and extends up and out. So, my point is that an average SG would have a standing reach capable of contesting Jimmers jumper.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
I know this isn't about Jimmer but Eric Gordon turned down the Hornets
What are the chances of us landing him this offseason?
by FTFeli on Jan 26, 2012 11:00 AM PST via mobile reply actions
I don’t see how he would fit in with our team unless we are willing to trade thornton….maybe thornton for luol deng then we sign eric gordon?
by CousinsEvansDUO on Jan 26, 2012 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
if he comes back healthy
have a feeling they will make him restricted and take him back nomatter what.
If his knee falls off, we might not want him and they’d still probably do a one year qualifying offer.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 11:11 AM PST up reply actions
Hmmm...
“The Sacramento coaching staff should be showing Fredette tape of Hamilton, Reggie Miller, and Allen, and getting him as many practice reps as possible to teach him to read defenses and move without the ball.”
Perhaps in fairness, there hasn’t been a lot of time for such study. But this seems obvious, that for Fredette to be more successful he needs to learn from the exact opposite of the stagnant Evans/Thornton/Salmons of the world.
I still think he could eventually be a legitimate point guard, but moving without the ball is something all our guards and wings should be able to do well – regardless of whether they play the 1, 2 or 3. That’s one reason why I’m still so disappointed (and somewhat agree with Pruiti), that after 19 games, “the Kings haven’t really adjusted much to help [Fredette] succeed. Coach Keith Smart is still having him work off ball screens.”
Such inability to recognize and implement at least some change makes me lean further toward finding a new coaching staff this off-season. Further, these young players desperately need better decision makers to look to on the court and vets that can truly hold Tyreke accountable. He has all the ability but seems to need someone to light a fire under him the way his older brothers may have done as he was growing up. Maybe TPTB thought Salmons would serve such a role, but that hasn’t exactly worked out.
I would love to see the organization make a strong offer to Peja to join the coaching staff to work with Evans, Fredette, Honeycutt, etc. at off-the-ball movement. Additionally, in an ideal world the Celtics would officially enter rebuild-mode and offer up one or two vets. I’d consider offering Thornton for Allen if I thought I could resign him for two more years.
by sroufe on Jan 26, 2012 11:18 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
"better decison makers to look to on the court . . .and vets"
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. You gotta love Reke, but he’s not a “floor general.” Gotta love what IT brings and before him Beno, but they’re not really starters. Jimmer’s just starting to learn. Jackson or Pops could be coaching this mess, it would still be ugly. Life imitates art, it’s Groundhog Day in Sacramento!
I would have liked Pruiti's analysis more if he would have been more positive.
The bulk of his analysis was on the poor play of Jimmer. He didn’t even get to his last three good games until the end. It was as though he was going to write a scathing commentary on Jimmer’s underwhelming performance as a rookie, given the high early expectations of him. Then as he got near the end to writing this, Jimmer picked up his play in his last three games and he tacked that part on.
I didn’t like it. Jimmer has had three consistent back-to-back games. This is showing a very positive trend for him as a rookie; yet, this article just tears him apart. Very unbalanced journalism, in my view.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
by Slam_Dunk on Jan 26, 2012 11:30 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Scathing?
From my vantage point, the most scathing thing in the entire article was “If he keeps playing well on the wing and learns to use screens away from the ball, he can still become the scorer Kings fans hoped he would be.”
If this article is scathing then holy crap we’re in trouble here.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 11:48 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Yes, scathing - as in harshly critcal, severe
From my vantage point, most of the article was harshly critical of Jimmer’s play. The one sentence you cite as being the most scathing, was in actuality one of the few positive things he had to say.
Holy crap if you think this was a positive article for Jimmer, we’re in trouble here.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Jimmer's play has deserved a scathing review until very recently
I thought it was pretty well balanced: for most of the season he’s been terrible, for the following reasons. Recently he’s been a lot better, for the following reasons. Conclusion: He’s been bad but can be good.
Are you reading it a lot differently than I am?
by lead_pipe on Jan 26, 2012 12:25 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I think terrible is a bit strong
For a rookie coming in to THIS team, with THAT coach, with all the hype. John Salmons. That’s terrible.
by lchristmas on Jan 26, 2012 12:29 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I dunno, playing your first NBA minutes with Salmons
Isaiah and Jimmer deserve some sort of Purple Heart or something
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 12:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
What I meant was
John salmons… THAT’s (he’s) “terrible”
(along with outlaw, garcia, greene, desmond mason, antoine wright, dom mcguire, kevin gamble, anthony bonner, and all our other 3’s, various and sundry)
by lchristmas on Jan 26, 2012 12:45 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Apparently so, LP
Jimmer has certainly had is struggles this season, which I presume was the intended essay here. The title certainly gives the reader the first hint at what is to come. I would have liked to have seen more balance. Jimmer had his struggles, but appears to be making his way. Jimmer’s recent success comes only at the end of his article. I would have like a more balance frame. There could have been some mention of Jimmer’s recent success at the beginning of the article.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Oh I was unaware this was supposed to be a PR piece
At least I understand where Bench is coming from given he is arguing there are some misconceptions in the analysis. But paragraph placement of recent success? Come on.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yep.
He spends most of the article tearing down the player, then makes almost a footnote of the fact Jimmer has played well his last three games.
It’s like saying – There were high expectations for this this player this season, but he has played like crap and here are the reasons why he has played like crap. Oh, I might also mention that he has played well his last three games.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Let's not say "it's like saying." Let's just throw it up there.
Despite Fredette’s abysmal offensive numbers and the embarrassing video clips of his defense, he might be close to turning his season around. In his last three games, Fredette found his scoring touch, averaging 17.3 points on 48.4 percent shooting, including 61.1 percent shooting behind the 3-point line.
The surprising thing about Fredette’s success is that the Kings haven’t really adjusted much to help him succeed. Coach Keith Smart is still having him work off ball screens. However, there is one significant difference between the ball screens Fredette has been using in the past two games and the ones he used the rest of the season. Now, the Kings are setting more screens for Fredette on the side of the court and not at the top of the 3-point line. Sacramento has been pairing him with another primary ball handler like Evans or Thomas and passing to Fredette on the wing. Fredette is better at using ball screens on the wing because he’s a threat to shoot as soon as he comes off the screen.
In this possession, being in a threat position allows Fredette to simply rise up and knock down a 3-pointer. He struggled to put pressure on defenses when he came off high screens, but it’s easier to create that pressure from the wing because Fredette is always within shooting range. If he keeps using side screens, Fredette should become a more efficient offensive player.
There’s no question that Jimmer Fredette is struggling in his rookie season with the Kings. It’s too early, however, to write him off as another Adam Morrison. If he keeps playing well on the wing and learns to use screens away from the ball, he can still become the scorer Kings fans hoped he would be. The Sacramento coaching staff should be showing Fredette tape of Hamilton, Reggie Miller, and Allen, and getting him as many practice reps as possible to teach him to read defenses and move without the ball. If that happens, we could be seeing Jimmer Time on an NBA court some day.
Look I get it if you think the analysis before all of this was wrong and I also would somewhat agree in that Pruiti should probably not just write off Jimmer being a point guard and just a scorer (hey wait, what was that quote I mentioned up top? hmmmmmmmm) but this isn’t just lip service which clearly you are trying to label it as.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Notice that when you just "throw it up there"
You only chose the end of the article, the only part that was in anyway positive about Jimmer, leaving out the main portion of the article, which was highly critical of Jimmer’s play. That is hardly throwing it up there.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
4 paragraphs
Is hardly the “footnote” you alluded to initially.
His point was you’re not giving credit to the author for the amount of time he spent discussing Jimmer’s recent improvement.
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Given the entire length of the article is approximately 3,647 words and the portion Wally chose, the final 343 words.
This is about 9 percent of the total article.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
That's a footnote?
I mean, I know it’s on Grantland, but 9% of a piece’s length is not a footnote.
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by Exhibit G on Jan 26, 2012 2:18 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
or for example
a little over 19% of a piece’s length. Particularly the section that has the conclusions (and can understand HT and Bench’s position on them).
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 2:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry misread a little of what you wrote
There were high expectations for this this player this season, but he has played like crap and here are the reasons why he has played like crap. Oh, I might also mention that he has played well his last three games.
I should have said …
Let’s not say “I might also mention that he has played well his last three games.”
My point was to emphasize it wasn’t just a footnote or paying lip service which clearly is the road you were going down.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 1:42 PM PST up reply actions
Okay, it wasn't just a footnote, but as I responded to Exhibit, it was less than 10% of the total article.
I would still say, he was only paying lip service give the content of the 91 percent that came before it.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
My bad.
I miscalculated. But, still the numbers are consistent with the original estimates I was giving. I used an estimate of 80% of the article as negative and the last 343 words you posted are 19 percent of the article.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
by the way
what about the content of those 343 words?
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 2:18 PM PST up reply actions
What about the content?
They were the most positive statements about Jimmer, if you include his backhanded remark of “abyssal offensive numbers.” Those 343 words were only one-fifth of the total article.
What if someone were to write a very flattering article about Jimmer’s first games in the NBA, highlighting all of his recent three-point shooting, FG%, Free Throw %, assists, etc. with nary a word about the problems he had making adjustments until the end of the article. Would you feel that was a fair way of portraying his time in the NBA to this point?
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Um ... I guess I'd like to read the article.
If they want to talk about the recent positives … okay?
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 2:52 PM PST up reply actions
Where did I write it was a positive article on Jimmer?
I would love to know where I said that.
And tell me, which parts were scathing?
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
80% of the article was very critical of Jimmer.
If you thought one of the most positive things written about Jimmer was one of the most scathing, then you are implying it is a positive article by your reasoning.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
lol nope
I am glad to know though that every article needs to give equal time to the positives and negatives. Should it be equal words? Sentences? Paragraphs? How about side by side so that the negative does not trump the positive? Oh how about negative facts, can we just delete those?
Again, totally get if you think the analysis is bunk but this equal time BS is BS.
Oh and no I was not implying it was a positive article … so there’s that.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I don't think you are getting my point, Wally.
I’m not saying that an article needs to give equal time for positive and negative analysis. What I am saying, this article by the nature of how it was written gives an overly negative bent on Jimmer, which I don’t think is a very accurate overall view of him now, given his recent successful outings.
Perhaps the writer has a negative opinion of Jimmer, perhaps writing this article with a negative bias. Fine. But, that doesn’t mean I have to like it or agree with it. Cause, I don’t.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
that's fine if you don't like it
but hardly scathing
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 1:06 PM PST up reply actions
Scathing
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by Exhibit G on Jan 26, 2012 1:09 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
"Negative bias?"
Since when are facts and reality “negative bias?”
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
When you cherry-pick them.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
by Slam_Dunk on Jan 26, 2012 3:11 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
If I ask you to give examples of alleged cherry-picking, would you mind doing so?
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
by andy sims on Jan 26, 2012 3:47 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Just from reading
the article , it seams to me that Sam Pruity is spot on as far as breaking down Fredette’s game (not counting these last few) . It seams like your main problem is that the breakdown itself is of a pretty ugly style of play, not flattering to Fredette. I dont see that as being overtly negative to Fredette, its just the reality of the situation. I would also say , give him more minutes and he will command the respect as a shooter to draw more double teams and then he will benefit from wide open passing lanes and his assist numbers will increase along with his point totals. He is definatly gonig to have to be a point guard in the NBA if he is anything. Although with his reported work ethic I would not be surprised to see him work on his defense to the point of becoming an average to good defender as well.
by 9K1NGS6 on Jan 26, 2012 3:21 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
By the way, which parts were scathing?
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 12:48 PM PST up reply actions
I already told you. It was the tone of the bulk of the article.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
which part
How can you call it scathing yet not be able to quote scathing parts?
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I admire you Wally
Keep fighting the good fight
Never forget, I'm a complete idiot.
Follow me on Twitter
Author of Inside-Out Game
by Exhibit G on Jan 26, 2012 1:07 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Look up the definition of the word.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
yeah missing the part that is biting or sharp or harmful or injurious or bitterly denunciatory
you know, other than the whole “scorer” part and ignorning the fact he can be a point guard thing which was in fact what I was referring to when you thought I was implying it was a positive article.
That is unless you think those last four paragraphs were entirely lip services which would be odd.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
Wally, it is a long article. It would serve no purpose to copy all of it here on StR.
You and others can read it for yourselves. I don’t know what you thinking the word scathing means. Perhaps it means something different to you than it does to me. I found this article to be overly critical of Jimmer. That was the overall tone of it. I am reading it in its entirety not just singling out a work or phrase or sentence.
If you don’t agree with me, then fine we can agree to disagree.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
^singling a word
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
You think "scathing" indicates intent. It does not.
I can give you a dozen factual reasons why mayonnaise is bad for you, but I can do it evenly and without passion.
When facts, statistics and real-world examples are confused with opinion, what hope is there to ever see things as they are?
The scope of the persecution complex on this is really just breathtaking.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
by andy sims on Jan 26, 2012 2:50 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Words can have more than one definition, with nuances.
- I indicated that my use of the term was “harshly critical,” which I believe is supported by the bulk of the article.
- When writers cherry-pick to support their bias, they hope to obfuscate reality. When a defense attorney cherry-picks the facts about his client, he hopes to obfuscate reality to influence a jury to find his client not guilty.
- Persecution complex? Where does that fit in? Not seeing that Andy.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Where is this cherry-picking?
A writer using stats that support their claim is not cherry picking. Particularly in an article diagnosing why Jimmer has struggled. I highly doubt Pruiti went to Synergy looking for stats that backed up his theories as to why Jimmer struggled early. I suspect he decided to write about why Jimmer was struggling, and began watching film and researching Synergy stats.
Why do I give this benefit of the doubt? Because there’s zero incentive for him to try to fabricate an argument!
Never forget, I'm a complete idiot.
Follow me on Twitter
Author of Inside-Out Game
by Exhibit G on Jan 26, 2012 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
When I say cherry-picking facts, I mean just that.
These are facts, I am not saying anyone is fabricating anything.
Let’s say it has been raining intermittently all day, with the sun shining when it is not raining. (50% rain, 50% sun)
One weather forecaster reports on the rain, but barely a mention of the sun, while another forecaster reports on the sun, with barely a mention of the rain. A third forecaster gives equal weight to the sun and rain in his report.
All three of these reports are factual. Nothing is fabricated, although the third forecaster gives the most accurate picture of the weather.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Why do you assume there is 50% rain, 50% sun?
Sacramento Kings - helping feed NBA fans across the country since 2011
That was a given.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Then you're already making the assumption that the article should be 50% positive and 50% negative?
Which sounds like circular logic? Unless I’m misunderstanding your analogy?>
Sacramento Kings - helping feed NBA fans across the country since 2011
No.
The example I gave with the given was to make a point about cherry-picking. You are confusing the issue.
The given is like a constant in math.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Okay
So in the last 19 hours it’s been mostly raining and at times pouring for the first 16 and mostly sunny the last 3. What do you want?
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 4:11 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
lol - What do I want? Fair enough.
I don’t want an article to begin with, “What the hell happened to Jimmer Fredette?”, when his last three games have shown a notable improvement from his previous ones in the NBA. It makes him sound like he has fallen off the edge of the planet, when he hasn’t. Fair enough to point out the struggles he has been having trying to adjust to the NBA. I’m not saying Jimmer deserves a glowing article about him, but I think he deserves better than this.
I have spent the better part of today defending my position. I think I have made my points clear. We may not see things the same, but that is okay. That makes for debate and differing points of view.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Ok, then
Your analogy sounds like a rigged game to me, but you two feel free to carry on.
Sacramento Kings - helping feed NBA fans across the country since 2011
No it's not a rigged game.
A constant is just a way to set something up in a formula or argument that is a “given” or constant. It is a fact that everyone agrees to.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
oh fuck me
I am glad to know though that every article needs to give equal time to the positives and negatives. Should it be equal words? Sentences? Paragraphs? How about side by side so that the negative does not trump the positive? Oh how about negative facts, can we just delete those?
I don’t think you are getting my point, Wally. I’m not saying that an article needs to give equal time for positive and negative analysis.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
how about the first paragraph
What the hell happened to Jimmer Fredette?
adding a “hell” to the already ridiculous title-premise that something has “happened” to a guy who’s played less than 20 NBA games on a shitty team with a shitty coach
scouts projected a range of NBA futures for the Naismith Award-winner: He could end up a starter, an elite sixth man who provided instant offense, or a just a regular rotation player. After a decent first week in the NBA, however, Fredette’s game flatlined
the “however” here implies that he won’t live up to the bottom end of this “range of futures”… again, quite a call after 19 games
There are a couple reasons why Fredette has looked like such a bust this season
a lame attempt to equivocate.. you’re saying he’s been a bust, dude… own it
there’s no reason to have Fredette on the court
implying that your #10 lottery pick shouldn’t be playing at all isn’t scathing?
Despite Fredette’s abysmal offensive numbers and the embarrassing video clips of his defense
I looked up “scathing” and this was the example sentence the dictionary used. really, had to go to “embarrassing?”
He hasn’t been good this year. I don’t even disagree with a lot of this article. But it is “scathing.”
On the substance…
With the defense too close for a catch-and-shoot, Fredette is forced to create a shot using his dribble. Once that happens, the defense has already won – they’ve forced Fredette away from his strength, which is shooting, and right back to his weakness, which is creating his own shot with the dribble.
Fredette shoots 53.3 percent in catch-and-shoot situations and 32.3 percent off the dribble, according to Synergy Sports. This stat shows how important it is for Fredette to use screens effectively, so he can create the space he needs to catch and shoot. Fredette probably hasn’t learned to move without the ball because he almost never did it in college. Fredette worked off screens away from the basketball just 6.2 percent of the time during his senior season at Brigham Young.
Let’s break down this abortion of a premise.
His “strength” is shooting yet his “weakness” is creating his own shot off the dribble…. hmmmm, how did he score 30 points a game in college?
must have been moving without the ball and getting catch and shoot opportunities, right? since his “weakness” is shooting off the dribble, I’m not aware of another way to get shots…
oh but wait
Fredette probably hasn’t learned to move without the ball because he almost never did it in college. Fredette worked off screens away from the basketball just 6.2 percent of the time during his senior season at Brigham Young.
maybe he isn’t that bad at creating his own shot off the dribble, eh?
i’m just a dummy on the internet, I’d probably gouge my ears with a spoon if I had to spend 30 minutes in a room with Bill Simmons, but let me help you, Sebas, it ain’t that complicated…
Jimmer’s “strength” is scoring. Open shots, crossover, off the dribble, pullups. The reason he has been ineffective offensively this year is because he has been missing a ton of shots that he isn’t going to keep missing. Also, yes, he has been asked to play a new position and run screen and rolls with coaches that suck at coaching and players who don’t set good screens, stand around, don’t roll, can’t hit on the pick and pop, and if he does kick out to someone it’s usually tyreke or one of the flotsam and jetsam small forwards.
Defensively, he’ll never be great. But this team defense has sucked too.
I’m not a blind Jimmer apologist. Yes, this article was one-sided, scathing, and, in my opinion, not too insightful
the bigger problem has been the Sacramento Kings’ decision to play Fredette as a point guard.
this is his thesis, and it’s flat out wrong
by lchristmas on Jan 26, 2012 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Damn those pesky facts!
How dare he slander the Jimmer is such a way! Those stupid stats that are based on breakdowns of every play he’s played as a King! And stats based on the plays he played in college! How dare he use those stats to support his argument! And how dare those stats show that Jimmer is shooting 20% worse off the dribble than in spot up situations this season!
The audacity, I tell you.
Never forget, I'm a complete idiot.
Follow me on Twitter
Author of Inside-Out Game
by Exhibit G on Jan 26, 2012 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
hilarious retort
you put more value on the 19 games he’s played in the NBA than on his entire college body of work. OK.
did you read what I posted or were you just busy working up a “haha here’s another jimmer fanboy” blast?
He worked off screens away from the basketball 6.2% of the time. He had the ball in his hands all the time. He scored off the dribble like a madman. Yet now (due to 19 games on a horrible team while being an afterthought) his weakness is creating his own shot off the dribble???
small sample size, BS
by lchristmas on Jan 26, 2012 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think there are certain things you can take from college
I’m not sure “scoring off the dribble” is one of them. Jimmer’s athletic ability (or lack thereof in comparison to most NBA players) could neutralize some of that ability.
His ability to shoot is not in question. His ability to get open is.
Sacramento Kings - helping feed NBA fans across the country since 2011
by otis29 on Jan 26, 2012 3:34 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
he has had lots of open shots this year, which he's missed at a clip that I don't believe will continue
he was AMAZING at scoring off the dribble in college. I don’t think it is too much of a leap to think that he could be GOOD at it in the NBA.
I understand the difference between the MWC and the NBA. But to say that the thing that made him famous, got him drafted in the lottery, etc, is now going to flip the switch to being a “weakness?” I don’t think so.
by lchristmas on Jan 26, 2012 3:45 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
If he was going back to college, his college stats might be relevant.
But he ain’t, so they ain’t. He started at zero, just like every rookie. Denying what is provably true to this early point just shows willful blindness to reality.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
by andy sims on Jan 26, 2012 3:34 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Then we made an incredible mistake
drafting a guy whose strength in college is now his weakness.
and I think it is quite an incorrect leap of logic to declare that his entire college body of work is completely irrelevant based on a tiny NBA sample size.
Brandon Knight (who quite a few people here are lamenting that we don’t have) has 63 assists and 60 turnovers this year. Is that a fair indication of how his career will go?
I'd agree with this.
And in regards to the article here, I think it is entirely too soon to write him off as a point guard.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
Of course it's small sample size
But when you’re drawing conclusions as to why a person has struggled in the 19 games since they entered the NBA, that’s the sample you have available to use to draw conclusions.
Certain things transfer to the NBA from college, other things do not. It’s much easier to create off the dribble against the defenses of the Mountain West conference. None of the criticisms in this article were shocking are surprising to me. They match what I’ve seen when watching Jimmer play.
I really like Jimmer. A lot. I was excited when we drafted him, and I firmly believe he’ll be successful for the Kings. But so far he hasn’t been. It disappoints me, but I don’t feel like Pruiti was attacking Jimmer, and I don’t think he was wrong.
And I responded the way I did because you’re arguing against the author’s use of stats.
Never forget, I'm a complete idiot.
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Author of Inside-Out Game
by Exhibit G on Jan 26, 2012 3:36 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Thank you
[I wasn’t really talking about the substance and certaintly not going to knock you for what you wrote there just wanted to say that real quick because my response doesn’t really cover it.]
I have a real hard time seeing how adding “hell” there is all that scathing nor how the auther is implying that he won’t live up to being just a regular rotation player, or that Jimmer is a bust versus just looked like a bust given the very explicit comments towards the bottom of the article.
implying that your #10 lottery pick shouldn’t be playing at all isn’t scathing?
Pretty sure he was expliciting stating that this particular player shouldn’t be playing at shooting guard when he is giving up 26.3 points per 48 minutes. I will agree it’s an insanely short period of time but to be honest, totally understand the Kings not wanting him to play shooting guard for those reasons.
I guess I’ll give you using the word “embarrasing.”
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 3:38 PM PST up reply actions
I had to read...
All the comments on this thread to find one that stated my frustration exactly. Thank you for saving me the time and energy of a thorough analysis of this garbage. Jimmer will be great and I’m not worried about his attitude. His humility plus his competitive drive will push him to make the necessary changes to be an elite player. His last three games have come in the face of difficult obstacles like: no offensive scheme, no training camp, limited preseason play, learning a new position, pressure to lift an organization from obscurity (not a put down), an then trying to come out of a shooting funk. I’m more then pleased with his last three performances an only foresee him getting better and better.
One thing that I loved was how he addresses the media after the losses. Even though he’s coming out of his slump, he’s not satisfied with losing and admits that the team needs to be better. He’s a true team player and will be a major asset to the kings as his game matures.
"soon as you see the poke coming, shut your eye lid."
- Danago
"Anderson fought with no ribs. Aldo fought with no foot, go do the math."
- Danago
by haglnuts on Jan 26, 2012 12:05 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
It's probably obvious from my other comments that I'm a Pruiti fan, but...
…to say something like “His humility plus his competitive drive will push him to make the necessary changes to be an elite player” is not analysis, it’s prognostication combined with hope. SP talked about what Jimmer’s done so far, and what it appears he’s trying to do moving forward. What you said might be true (I hope it is!), might happen, might not be true, and might not happen. We can’t base our evaluation of a player, on what we hope he’ll do or how hard we think he’ll work, only on what they have done.
by lead_pipe on Jan 26, 2012 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
hagnuts may be right....
Pruiti is basing his “Jimmer CANT do this” conclusions on a very small sample of games, and without pre-season, summer league, and limited coaching to prepare Jimmer- the article is probably unfair.
Most said Jimmer would not excell in HS- with hard work he did. Many said he would never succeed in the NCAA level- he struggled his first year or two at BYU, but figured it out and – well – you know what happened. He was by many accounts the most exciting college player last year.
My humble analysis is BASED ON HIS PAST- in overcoming long odds and still succeeding. Jimmer will never be a Labron or a Kobe, but he will figure out how to maximize his strengths in the NBA – just like he did in HS and College – and become a solid player in this league.
by jensenvo on Jan 26, 2012 8:44 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
I’m not basing my prognostication on hope alone, I’m basing it on discernible facts exemplified through characteristics based on his past as you pointed out. Either way, I think it’s safe to assume that we ALL want Jimmer to succeed and my point is that I believe that based on his attitude there’s a great chance of that happening. Thanks for the discussion!
"soon as you see the poke coming, shut your eye lid."
- Danago
"Anderson fought with no ribs. Aldo fought with no foot, go do the math."
- Danago
by haglnuts on Jan 26, 2012 10:07 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Obviously a hack writer
at no point in the article did he even mention none of this is Jimmer’s fault.
35 and 31. I'm calling it now. Reke and Cousins 1-2 in most improved award both All-stars. Jimmer leads rookies in scoring, passing and Ole's. Make 2nd round of playoffs and Salmons is not here by seasons end.
by ElRonToro on Jan 26, 2012 12:27 PM PST reply actions 8 recs
I only read articles about the Kings that smell like roses and look like double rainbows
by HeuristicLineup on Jan 26, 2012 12:44 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
Jimmer's only struggling
cause he decided to give everyone else a chance before he rips their hearts out.
formerly what_the_crap
Nothing "happened" to Jimmer.
He’s a rookie in the NBA. Rookies tend to struggle early on. And let’s be honest, right now he only has 1 NBA level skill: shooting. He’s still trying to figure out how to get good shots against NBA defenses. That’s going to take time.
And, oh yeah, he’s a rookie. His ball handling, passing, and decision making are not at the NBA level right now. Those deficiencies lead to turnovers. The more experience he get’s the better his decision making will get.
Did I mention he’s a rookie?
by StevenG on Jan 26, 2012 1:51 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
He has already done a better job handling the ball the past few games
and he no longer seems to be jumping in the air for no apparent reason. He has begun to take open shots that he was shunning before (and making them). That said , the jury is still out on Jimmer and I think deliberations may take quite a while. Sorry for my scathing comment.
35 and 31. I'm calling it now. Reke and Cousins 1-2 in most improved award both All-stars. Jimmer leads rookies in scoring, passing and Ole's. Make 2nd round of playoffs and Salmons is not here by seasons end.
by ElRonToro on Jan 26, 2012 1:58 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Terrific analysis.
In this case he sees Chris Andersen rotating over, so he throws a bounce pass to Corey Brewer. The problem is that Brewer plays for the Denver Nuggets, not the Kings.
My first thought was why wasn't Andersen's man cutting to the basket to give Jimmer a passing lane?
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
by HighTops on Jan 26, 2012 2:22 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
And that video of the P&R turnovers,
the 2nd one was a perfect pass meant for Cousins who could have easily caught it for a dunk if he were paying any attention.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 26, 2012 3:13 PM PST up reply actions
Yep, this looks like isolated incidents from a small sample size to justify a preconcieved ideas
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
"Not his fault! NOT HIS FAULT!"
I’m trademarking this, and will put it on the back of t-shirts with Fredette on the front. I will retire well in 90 days just from the money I rake in from the fanboys alone.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
Yeah, I totally hate that
When someone searches for data strictly to back up their opinion, rather than base their opinion on where the data leads them. Very annoying.
Sacramento Kings - helping feed NBA fans across the country since 2011
Annoying like ignoring the term 'isolated incidents'
and implying that there was more than enough data presented to make a case for that opinion.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
The greatest impact player in NBA History - Tim Donaghy
Or taking data and analyzing it in a manner that fits your point of view when there could be alternate explanations
Equally annoying!
Sacramento Kings - helping feed NBA fans across the country since 2011
You mean like cherry picking?
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
I wish Fredette's eagerness to defend was even half as good as his fanboys' efforts to defend him against any perceived criticism.
Looks like Pruiti is in for a real flame war with the blinders-wearers. How dare he use facts, statistics and examples to make a case! Wouldn’t things be so much better if what we believed was true instead?
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
by andy sims on Jan 26, 2012 2:45 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I will say
HT might have a point about the pick and rolls.
And I have to admit, it doesn’t seem to me that many rookie guards are particularly good at defense, although not going to lie I tend to lean strongly on others with their opinions on guard defense.
by wallywagon11 on Jan 26, 2012 2:55 PM PST up reply actions
As a Jimmer and Kings fan, let me sum up:
1. Jimmer is a below average defender.
2. Jimmer is a long way from being an average defender based on both the eyeball test and statistical analysis.
3. Jimmer has shown signs of improvement on offense. (a 68% TS% over the last 3 games – that ranks up there in the ‘exceptional’ category)
Now to interject a personal observation concerning the article and its author:
While I do not disagree with any points the author makes, it does seem apparent that the article was written prior to Jimmer’s recent upswing. I don’t think that it is valid to condemn the author for this. That article required a fair amount of work to put together and when he started it was not only valid but indeed, a ‘story’. Jimmer was not shooting well and he definitely wasn’t guarding well. It appears the author rightly appended the article with the last few paragraphs due to the upswing.
by BurningFeathers on Jan 26, 2012 3:08 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
This is the most resonable thing I've read in this thread
Well said.
Never forget, I'm a complete idiot.
Follow me on Twitter
Author of Inside-Out Game
Which reminds me:
Everybody be a good citizen and vote.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 26, 2012 3:13 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Andy
Ive always noticed a certain theme from your comments when it comes to Jimmer. LOL
"Props"
This slang expression has its origin in Black English.Though props has several slang senses, here it means 'proper or due respect; compliments, credit, admiration, or praise.Successful people who have gotten their props should then "give props to their peeps," that is, they should (at least partially) credit their parents and friends.
According to Clarence Major's Juba to Jive: A Dictionary of Black American Slang, the Black English term props also refers to any form of support or protection. So your props can include your friends, your family, and even your switchblade.
I think what you've noticed a certain theme in my comments regarding his fanboys.
I like Jimmer, and hope he gets better. Denying that he’s been more bad than good thus far is just inane.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
by andy sims on Jan 26, 2012 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
...and forgetting that Jimmer is
just a rookie without the benefit of a preseason, on a BAD team, with little leadership, and two different head coaches is equally inane.
by jensenvo on Jan 26, 2012 8:55 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
No one forgot anything.
The article based its conclusion on the limited amount of data available, and you may dispute the conclusion based on that limited sample size, but it’d be more compelling if you’d tell me where Pruiti is wrong, and more importantly, why he is wrong.
Telling me you believe he will become a better defender or learn to get open are reasonable, but saying it as though you’ve seen it in a weird vision just undercuts your attempt to refute Pruiti’s facts, statistics, and cited examples.
Believing he will “get quicker, taller, or more athletic” just ain’t gonna do it. I feel like he will improve with his work ethic, but there are significant portions of his game that will always be limited. He’ll never be quick enough to be Chris Paul, I can’t assume that his court vision will ever rival Steve Nash, and it’s hard to imagine him ever being a plus defender against taller and faster shooting guards or quicker and more athletic point guards. He’ll have to get really good at team defense, because he’s likely to be the defensive soft spot whenever he’s on the floor.
Fredette may very well be able to score enough points to offset the myriad he will be giving up, but I can’t say it will be that way. Neither can you.
And wanting it to be so ain’t an argument in his favor.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
by andy sims on Jan 26, 2012 9:51 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Courtesy of SavageBeast, andy sims just doesn't want to be this guy.
And I heartily approve.
Claremont Mckenna College
Forbes #3 in the West, #12 in the Nation
"Crescit cum comercio civicas"
Throw it around the back so it look fly when I pass//
Just to avoid the block go high off the glass//
I'm killing them out there they gon' have to bring caskets//
This all I hear after the baskets *swoosh*//
by HarveySpecter on Jan 26, 2012 11:48 PM PST up reply actions
In the sense that I don't want to be a tiny man standing where someone's penis is meant to be, absolutely effing right.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
(Or a Jimmer Jockey)
But point taken. Putting it that way sounds disgusting XD.
Claremont Mckenna College
Forbes #3 in the West, #12 in the Nation
"Crescit cum comercio civicas"
Throw it around the back so it look fly when I pass//
Just to avoid the block go high off the glass//
I'm killing them out there they gon' have to bring caskets//
This all I hear after the baskets *swoosh*//
by HarveySpecter on Jan 27, 2012 1:39 AM PST up reply actions
I do that sometimes.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
by andy sims on Jan 27, 2012 6:29 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
stats are correct, but
…it is unfair to draw conclusions when Jimmer has not had a Pre-Season, Summer League, and limited coaching. A similar evaluation after a full season would have been MUCH more fair to the Jimmer.
And perhaps he'll revisit at that time
But for now, it’s an accurate assessment, IMO.
Sacramento Kings - helping feed NBA fans across the country since 2011
by otis29 on Jan 27, 2012 4:41 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Got excited seeing so many comments on this article
Then I go here and realized 80% of them are one long bitch fight over the word “scathing”
by feelgood on Jan 26, 2012 3:14 PM PST reply actions 9 recs
I concur
"Props"
This slang expression has its origin in Black English.Though props has several slang senses, here it means 'proper or due respect; compliments, credit, admiration, or praise.Successful people who have gotten their props should then "give props to their peeps," that is, they should (at least partially) credit their parents and friends.
According to Clarence Major's Juba to Jive: A Dictionary of Black American Slang, the Black English term props also refers to any form of support or protection. So your props can include your friends, your family, and even your switchblade.
Well, words have meaning.
And when meanings can be twisted, words cease to mean anything.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
Everything is not always black and white.
Enter the grey/gray zone.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
Scathingly insightful.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 26, 2012 9:47 PM PST up reply actions
SavageBeast, Where are you?
We need your awesome gif from the other Jimmer thread.
Claremont Mckenna College
Forbes #3 in the West, #12 in the Nation
"Crescit cum comercio civicas"
Throw it around the back so it look fly when I pass//
Just to avoid the block go high off the glass//
I'm killing them out there they gon' have to bring caskets//
This all I hear after the baskets *swoosh*//
WHAT's THE BIG DEAL ABOUT FREDETTE? HE's A FRICKIN' ROOK IN A CONDENSED SEASON
I was not and am not a Freddetterite like some people, but WTF? He needs time to adjust and learn the NBA – which he will. Like Tyreke, Jimmer will learn to use the tools that he has to the best of his abilities.
Stay Thirsty My Friends
WONK
Etymology - origin unknown
Function - Noun
Definition - A person preoccuped with arcane details or procedures in a specialized field; broadly, NERD; especially someone young who focuses on one topic or subject to the near exclusion of all other topics.
by Natomaser on Jan 26, 2012 6:35 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Was Jimmer's college team any good?
Or was he the best player on a bad team?
It was mostly just him and the fornicator.
Shoulda got married when you were 17, pal.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
by andy sims on Jan 26, 2012 8:14 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Very few drafted players come from bad teams.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
So his team had a winning record?
I don’t know much about college ball.
They went to the sweet 16 I think.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 26, 2012 9:48 PM PST up reply actions
That was the best team BYU has had in the history of the school.
It had all the pieces to make a run at the National Championship and had something like 1 in 4 odds to win it all until they lost Davies to a suspension. They were a tournament team every year Jimmer was there. Definitely not used to losing.
The team was solid
He made it very good, a top 15 team in the nation in my mind. His teammates were not very good offensively though, at least not good enough to get a chance in the pros.
They were #3 in the country toward the end of the season...
until they lost their best big guy to suspension. Then they fell to about #10 and landed a 3 seed in the tourney. Blew out Wolford and Gonzaga before losing to Florida in overtime in the sweet 16.
by Calvin Wells on Jan 26, 2012 10:29 PM PST up reply actions
Jimmer's better play the last 3 games has been forthcoming
Seems to have his confidence back – especially when he shares minutes with IT. Time to start Jimmer at Shooting guard, start Isaiah at PG, and start Evans at SF.
I think the game on Saturday will be quite interesting for Jimmer
Which Jimmer shows up? Will we see a Jimmer that’s forcing it to much to try and put on a show for Utah? Do we see a scared/nervous Jimmer that can’t hit a shot? Or do we see what we’ve seen over the last 3 games?
by HeuristicLineup on Jan 27, 2012 6:30 AM PST up reply actions
With all the cheering from the Jazz fans,
I don’t know if they’ll have that much of a home court advantage.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 27, 2012 10:00 AM PST up reply actions
They might cheer more for him than their own team
by HeuristicLineup on Jan 27, 2012 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
Y'all don't think much of the excellent Jazz fans in SLC, do ya?
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
Well, not compared to their love for a polarized Mormon
by HeuristicLineup on Jan 27, 2012 1:43 PM PST up reply actions
Watch your step, I think we are becoming polarized.
Asked if the Kings had any intention of trading Cousins, basketball president Geoff Petrie said, "No."
by Slam_Dunk on Jan 27, 2012 4:47 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually
Salt Lake City is home to University of Utah, BYU’s rivals.
Author of NBA Mashups. Follow me on Twitter here.
Haha, those Salt Lake City fans are scathing in their hate of all things BYU.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
Late to the Jimmer party
As I mentioned in another thread, his strength is perimeter shooting. His defense is what it is at this point, but I think he can minimize his weaknesses to the extent that he can at least become a decent/average defender.
From what I’ve seen of his game, he’s not really a catch and shoot guy like Allen or Hamilton- guys that run through a lot screens to get open. I’m not saying he couldn’t do this, but that doesn’t seem to be a major component of his game or how he will be used in our offense.
The unknowns for me are what type of facilitator he will be (if this is asked of him) and can he consistently create a shot for himself at this level. As I mentioned, there’s no doubt he can stroke it from the perimeter and that’s a valuable skill, so if his career arc is to be the guy that helps space the offense and stretches the defense, that’s ok. That said, this would be mildly disappointing to me as his game seems more dynamic than that, but if he can at least maximize his strength and stay a consistently deadly perimeter guy, I can live with that.
Thread Review
Looks like I picked the wrong week to have limited internet access.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
You can always simply refer to any similar thread over the previous year.
Nothing new to see here, keep moving.
And if you take a full year off, nothing will have changed.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
Well,
that was a rather scathing response.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 27, 2012 8:02 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
Slam Dunk rec'd
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen. And for a limited time, every third person who follows me on Twitter (andy_sims) gets a free ice cream cone.
Which I will eat.
by andy sims on Jan 27, 2012 8:18 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
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