Bibby for Gooden?
Since we learned a few days ago that Sacramento and Cleveland are discussing Mike Bibby, we thought we'd look into some likely scenarios.
We mentioned in passing over the weekend that Drew Gooden would need to get involved to create anything really workable.
Could he be available? At first mind-glance, I said no. He's not an All-Star type by any stretch of the imagination - but for guy on a 3-year, $20 million deal, he's pretty darn good. He's 25 years old, and he's a better rebounder than every King save Justin Williams. He's a potent scorer like 50% of the time, and while I haven't heard much good about his defense, I haven't heard anyone call him El Cordobés either.
So why would the Cavaliers give him up?
Because of Anderson Varejao. Every rumor that swirls around Cleveland says the front office loves the young Brazilian and want to keep him. He's a free agent after this season, as a a former second round draft pick that Cavs didn't extend last summer. Fans in Cleveland have taken to him, thanks to the Sideshow Bob hair and the constant energy. He just seems to make his teammates better.
He'll probably cost the same as Gooden next year, maybe a little less (mid-level).
The Cavaliers could deal Gooden and replace him with Varejao in the coming years, and if they could get a 20 ppg, 40-min+ point guard in return for the stretch run and probably two more years, why wouldn't they? Thanks to Zydrunas Ilgauskas and LeBron James, Cleveland could remain one of the top rebounding teams in league (currently 2nd in defensive rebounding and 3rd in offensive rebounding). Scoring is what they need, despite the pleas of Coach Mike Brown. Mike Bibby is a scorer, and being paired with a player who takes off the pressure like LeBron - that's not going to hurt.
After all this talk about why Cleveland should want to trade Gooden, why does Sacramento want him?
- Shareef Abdur-Rahim, I'm sad to say, is probably a second-string player the rest of his career. He's in town for three more years after this season, and he's aging before our eyes. He's still a go-to scorer in the deep post, but his defensive rebounding has fallen off the table and he's about as quick as the platelets swimming down Michael Sweetney's arteries. Behind Gooden, Shareef could still get his 20 minutes per night. And with Gooden, those minutes could come a bit more consistently - you never know when Kenny Thomas has to be pulled because he peed his pants.
- Kenny Thomas is the worst-performing power forward in the league. No just starting power forwards - I think he's been the worst power forward this season, period. He's a sure-thing turnover half the times he touches the ball, he can't score around the time unless Earl Boykins is guarding him, he still hasn't fixed the awful hitch in his jumper, his rebounding (especially offensive) has slipped, and he couldn't hit a free throw if his contract was on the line. Other than that, though, he's been great. I don't know what the Kings can/should do with him... keeping him in the starting lineup until 2011 doesn't seem like the answer, though.
- Corliss Williamson has been a nice story, but he's got about 400 game minutes left in his body. Even already this season he's seemed to wear down, and he's played 800 minutes over 43 games - about 19 a night. He's D-U-N done. And he's the most tradeable expiring contract the Kings have going into trade deadline crunchtime.
- There is nothing in the pipeline. At least at shooting guard/small forward, there's talent behind the talent. John Salmons or Francisco Garcia could start any given night, and Quincy Douby could qualify as a sixth-man, even at this early stage. There's potential and youth there behind Kevin Martin and Ron Artest, even if the performance isn't quite Reef/Nasty-like yet.
And for all the love Varejao gets - Gooden is only 15 months older. Potential this, potential that: Gooden is doing it, and will likely do it for the duration of his contract. That would be a huge boost to the roster.
As for the point guard position if Bibby gets traded: John Salmons. I know a lot of us have problems with his style - he loves to drive and kick and not depend on the pick-and-roll we adore. But it's a temporary answer. Point guard is fairly deep position in free agency this offseason, with Maurice Williams being a handsome target, if the Bibby move can clear cap space.
About that cap? Bibby and Ronnie Price for Gooden, Scot Pollard, Ira Newble, and Sasha Pavlovic works under the cap. That saves the Kings about $6 million next year, and the same in 2009 (assuming Bibby does not opt out). Pollard, Newble, and Pavlovic all have expiring contracts.
Does this trade make the Kings a better team?
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Re: Bibby for Gooden?
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I'm all for that trade. The team would then waive Newble to fill out the roster or even sigh! Justin Williams
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However, I really think another team would have to get involved to make this happen.
And Gooden would have to shave that creepy patch of hair off the back of his head before I would ever root for him.
by Chris The Greek on Feb 12, 2007 10:22 AM PST reply actions
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by pyro on Feb 12, 2007 2:22 PM PST up reply actions
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Nice point regarding, Corlis: he is playing his ass off this year and his productivity is excellent; but KT and Reef's lack of production means he has to play more than necessary. Fatigue is bound to be an issue with an older player. Corlis has to be given credit for remaining in outstanding physical condition. And he remains surprisingly quick and agile for a low-post NBA player of his age.
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Swap out him for Dwyane Jones and the salaries still work.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2007 11:56 AM PST reply actions
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i don't think that combination of talent quite works
by CrownUs93 on Feb 12, 2007 12:36 PM PST reply actions
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by CrownUs93 on Feb 12, 2007 1:05 PM PST reply actions
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I think there's a reason he's been on three teams already. He just seems like kind of a dumb kid sometimes. One time in a blowout game I saw him try to throw an alley oop to himself off the backboard. He completely failed.
by Lamar Latrell on Feb 12, 2007 1:43 PM PST reply actions
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The Kings need to trade for some picks.
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Utah had two hall-of-famers on the roster until the 2002-2003 season. Since those guys left the team, Utah has missed the playoffs three years running. Why should we be emulating the Jazz - because they had a quick start this season??
In case you didn't notice, Petrie has put together rosters that have qualified for the postseason eight straight years. And he's done it without a true superstar player. This season has been disappointing, yes, but let's at least be factual in our criticism.
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"Making" the playoffs-as a fan-is not the objective. Building a champion is. That's like saying a certain NFL coach has led his team into the playoffs as a wild-card several years in a row: woop-dee-doo.
if you recall your Kings history, the team emptied its cupboard by effectively disbanding The Bench Mob when contract concerns presented themselves. Hedo, Jim Jackson, then BJ and I think Pollard were given the bum's rush.
My point is this: fans will need to weather the transition while the fledglings learn to fly. This team has too many role players. My feeling is that the Maloofs are very reluctant to gut the team and start from scratch because they are pinching every penny they see.
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You talk about Hedo, JJ, BJ and Scot leaving. The only one who seemed to have anything left after departing the Kings is Hedo, and he hasn't exactly been an All-Star. I don't see those as bad decisions by Petrie, but necessary.
It's damn hard to build a championship team without a true superstar player. Look at the list of teams over the last 25 years that have won titles. Only one that I can see (the Pistons in '03-'04) didn't feature a true superstar. The rest of the list includes teams led by Shaq and D-Wade, Duncan, Shaq and Kobe, Jordan, Olajuwon...hell, all the way back to Bird, Magic, Isaiah and Dr. J.
Superstars win championships, if the remainder of the roster is handled correctly. We do not have a superstar (even one in training) on this roster. Other than Kobe, those guys on the list above are all top-five draft picks. I'm sure Petrie would love to be in a situation where he could build around one guy - it would be a heck of a lot easier. Problem is, teams aren't willing to just give away their superstar players - and the Kings are routinely drafting anywhere between the 15th and 28th spot each year. The odds of finding a true superstar there are astronomical.
So Petrie has to make due with trades and free agency, and filling the holes through the draft with role players. It's a theory that built one of the most entertaining teams to ever play in the NBA (and arguably the best team never to win an NBA championship). He's done a pretty fair job of keeping this team at a playoff level, the last two years notwithstanding. I'd say the guy deserves a break for one down year.
By the way, the Maloofs annually take their payroll to the brink of the luxury tax. They are making the effort to keep a winning product on the floor while they retool. Implying that they are cheap is crap, IMO.
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You need more than a superstar to win a championship. You need a deep team, which the Maloofs surrendered to avoid the dread tax.
I am not saying the Maloofs are cheap, I am saying they are salary tax phobic and that policy hems them and us in. Which is not to say that spendy owners can expect championships -- remember Paul Allen?
Winning-schminning. Only an NBA title is worth talking about.
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The type of player you're referring to is above the word superstar, to me. Guys like Wade, Kobe, etc. are athletic freaks of nature and have more talent in their pinky than most do in their entire body. They're from some other type of planet.
Webber was immensely talented and was the center piece of the Kings team. He wasn't on the level of the players you described, but not many are.
Bibby and Webber will never be in the same breath as some of the guys you mentioned above. But they did carry this team and they were this close to a championship. To try and discredit them now is a shame. They are both older, but I think both of them clearly have some left in the tank. Especially Bibby, after he becomes 100% healthy again and perhaps has a change of scenery.
You may have soured on them, others haven't.
Webber was a "superstar". Just like McGrady, just like KG, just like Malone, just like Stockton, or Barkley... just like every other hall of fame caliber player that never won a championship. To try to put them on the same level as players of lesser talent or ability is a shame. Webber - more than any other player - was responsible for bringing some credibility back to the Kings. Did he bring a championship? No, but that isn't his fault alone.
But he was a superstar. Many others would agree. You don't. That doesn't mean their (our) argument holds any less credibility or is worth just discounting with a one sentence response.
Even today, Webber is widely considered the reason the Pistons are the favorite in the East. Go figure. I highly doubt a "roleplayer" would bring that to a team. And no, I'm not saying Webber is the same player of 2001-2002. You know, the same guy that once scored 50+ and had 25 rebounds in the same game. But the guy is averaging 12 points, 7 boards, 3 assists in just 30 minutes a game for Detroit, while starting at center. Not to mention their record is 11-2 with him in the line-up.
Now that I think about it, I'd rather have Webber at the 4 right now than Shareef or Kenny. Combined they average 53 minutes a game, and their averages combined are just a little higher. Damn.
I guess that's not too bad for a guy who wasn't a superstar.
by bballblog on Feb 12, 2007 11:26 PM PST up reply actions
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You can't deny the evidence that shows how teams win championships. I found one aberration out of the last 25 NBA champions. That's pretty strong evidence that building a championship team requires an elite player. It doesn't guarantee anything (see Dominique Wilkins and the Chuckster), but it certainly puts you in the hunt.
My primary point is that Petrie has done a pretty damn good job of putting together a perennial playoff team (and occasional contender) without a truly elite (superstar) player. But I'm sure he would love to have a Wade/Nowitzki type player to build this team around.
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Regarding his whole career: I don't think he's there - close but not quite there.
I'm not surprised he's doing well in Detroit. He's around player he respects and that at this point are as good or better than he is. I wish that he would have been ready to transform into Vlade Divac and age gracefully while making teammate better here but that was never going to happen.
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by CrownUs93 on Feb 13, 2007 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
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How about....
We get Gooden, who is the center piece of the deal. We also get JWill again, who should liven things up for the Arco Arena crowd with the other youngsters (Salmons, Martin and Garcia). Throw in a first round pick from Miami, and I like it. Posey's contract also expires after this season.
Cleveland gets Bibby, while assuring Varejao that he's going to be their guy at the 4 for years to come. They also dump Jones' contract and get someone - when healthy - who can flat out shoot in Bibby. He's also as clutch as they come. Does this solve Cleveland's defensive woes? No, but when Cleveland realizes that they have a starting center who is slow who is never going to be an all defensive player, and they should gear their team primarily for the offensive end, they'll be better off. Putting Bibby at the helm will relieve a lot of pressure off LeBron as well.
Miami gets Artest, Scot Pollard and Damon Jones. Jones can provide some outside shooting for the Heat, while Artest will be around to help Eddie Jones guard the likes of Kobe and others. This will keep Wade fresh for 48 minutes as he won't be relied on to guard the best player on the opposing team night after night. Jones also will fit right in with the Miami offense, and Pollard will give Miami another big that can fill in for Shaq or Zo should either of them need some downtime this year.
All around I think all three teams walk away with a good deal here. Of course, this gives the Kings 3 power forwards. Since we're establishing that Gooden is our go to guy and Thomas is probably untradeable; that means Shareef will likely be the odd man out.
With that in mnd, I also propose this deal:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=99~3~674&teams=23~4~4
Chicago gets the post scorer they've been craving. We get immediate cap relief. We'd obviously waive PJ immediately so he can sign with a playoff squad.
Within a year, the Kings would be back under the salary cap and have a promising young core in Martin, Garcia, Gooden and Salmons to build around, two first round picks this year, and some cap room. And for at least the next year or so, at least the squad - w/ Muss' permission and J-Will's health in good standing - will be entertaining again with #55 back in the purple and black.
by bballblog on Feb 12, 2007 10:36 PM PST reply actions
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also, is there a "dump kenny thomas" version of this trade, although the possibility of dumping kenny is like living on mars.
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He'll never be great defensively but believe me, Riles wanted JWill in Miami. The only reason he'd give up on him now his because he's missed a lot of games this year, but they don't have a consistent PG when he's out of the line-up.
by bballblog on Feb 12, 2007 11:28 PM PST up reply actions
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by bballblog on Feb 13, 2007 11:17 AM PST up reply actions
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Jason would be very tradeable right now due to his contract. If Riles didn't like him, he'd be gone already - health issues this season or not.
by bballblog on Feb 14, 2007 3:09 AM PST up reply actions
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my point is, riley is glad williams is there because the other option was far worst, but if any trade needs to go down, he'll trade in a heart beat because he's not 100% confident in him (the quotes can also be flipped as a "boost of confidence" take; meaning he was trying to hush something that might have legs).
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Also, I've been thinking about Shareef and Chicago a bit. This deal makes sense if the Bulls decide not to "mortgage the future" for Gasol. ("Mortgage the future" is relative. A team with that many good prospects isn't going to mortgage their future in one trade.)
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TZ the trade you suggested at the bottom probably isn't feasible, mainly because I don't think Cleveland would be willing to give up Sasha Pavlovic . Plus it might not be good for us anyways. We'll be stuck juggling sharif, KT, sasha, newble, and pollard.....i don't think they'll all be one happy family.
on the other hand, I like pavlovic better than Gooden, who is way too unreliable to ever be considered a good capture.
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by Observer on Feb 13, 2007 8:23 AM PST reply actions

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