Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
by Ziller on Nov 19, 2007 10:47 AM PST
in Commentary
37 comments
Most around here know I'm a devout parishoner in The Church of Kevin Martin. I called him 'untouchable' on February 6, 2006. He has gotten much, much better since. For example, as of today, Martin is #11 in the league in PER. Only eight guards have shot better. Only seven players score more per-minute, and one player scores more per game. Three players have drawn more fouls per shot attempt.
Yet someone out there -- Steve Weinman of MVN's The NBA Source -- has the... audacity? lack of perspective? thirst for punishment? to write the following.
I know, I lost all of you who actually watch Martin and the Kings somewhere around the second sentence. Go ahead, compose yourself. Think of the bird flu and serial puppy kicker or Kenny Thomas to keep yourself from laughing. Better? Okay. Let's um, address this.
Kevin Martin does not shoot that much.
Among the top 10 per-game scorers in the league, only Richard Jefferson shoots fewer FGAs per game. A chucker would be someone who takes a ton of shots to get a bunch of points. Someone like Baron Davis perhaps, who takes 21 FGAs a game to get 23 points. Kevin Martin is very literally the opposite -- he takes comparatively few shots to get a bunch of shots. And this is not specific to this season; last year, two 20-point scorers averaged fewer than 14 FGAs per game -- Amare Stoudemire and Kevin Martin. Martin has always been known as an efficient scorer, not a volume scorer. To state otherwise shows a lack of understanding of Kevin Martin's game.
"Martin tries to attack the rim far too much for his own good?" Please.
As I said above, three players have a better 'free throws per FGAs' rate than Martin this season -- Dwyane Wade, Kyle Lowry and Sean Williams. Are free throws not a good result from driving to the rim for an 85% free throw shooter? Martin broke the Sacramento-era record for most made free throws in a season last year; he is on pace to break Tiny Archibald's franchise record this season. No one in the NBA has made more free throws this season. No one in the NBA has averaged more made free throws per game this season. I'd venture up to 75% of Martin's trips to the free throw line come off... attacks on the rim. Again, Weinman writes: "[H]e often winds up throwing up contested off-balance shots that miss badly. This wouldn't be such a problem if Martin could understand his limitations and settle into role of being a shooter." No. He often winds up drawing a foul and hitting two from the line. This is not a problem, as Martin understands his abilities and has not relegated himself into a strict role as a shooter. If he had, this team would be even more of a disaster.
Kevin Martin is not one-dimensional.
According to John Hollinger's rebound rate numbers on ESPN.com, Martin has been a better rebounder this year than a few highly-touted excellent all-around players... Kevin Durant and Brandon Roy. In fact, his rebounding has slipped a bit this year -- he's been playing long minutes and due to a high usage rate hasn't been a factor on the offensive boards. But this is new. In his player preview for Martin, Hollinger noted Martin was an above-average rebounder for his position last year. And no, he doesn't rack up assists. You might notice no one on the Kings does. Does that mean everyone on the Kings shoots it as soon as they touch it? In some cases (John Salmons, Francisco Garcia), yes. In Martin's case? No. If he's doubled, he passes out. If he has a bad matchup, he passes. If a teammate has a better matchup, he passes. One of the chief concerns among Sacramento fans this year has been that Martin defers too much. One more time from Hollinger, in his recent column on the surprises of the league: "[U]nlike a lot of big-time scorers, he never takes a bad shot." This is not shocking information to Kings fans; when he doesn't have a good look, he passes the ball. Again, he doesn't rack up assists. But he passes the damn ball plenty. Sometimes, I wish he would stop.
Looking at the top scorers list and finding a name you don't know much about shouldn't be cause to call said scorer 'a chucker' who hurts his team and doesn't deserve to be considered a star. No one in the league scoring at Martin's rate is as efficient, save scorching hot Manu Ginobili, scorching hot Richard Jefferson, and scorching hot Ray Allen. And you know what? Any Kings fan would tell you Martin is not scorching hot right now. He's setting all these efficiency standards but we've seen him much hotter over the past two years. We who watch him 80 times a year, we've only been astounded by one Kevin Martin game this season (the first three quarters of Friday's Knicks game). What he's doing right now, it's not a surprise. We've seen it since the beginning of 2006, night after night. He's just get more opportunities now, and he's making the most of it. Just because he's a top scorer on a bad team does not mean he's a chucker.
Sometimes, you have to... watch basketball? look beyond the cover? research stuff? before making ridiculously contrarian statements. If you don't, you run the risk -- as Mr. Weinman has -- of being completely, undoubtedly, laughably wrong.
(Thanks to J.E. Skeets for sending out the Bat signal on this one.)
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Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
However, at 185 pounds, the string bean in Sacto isn't one of the bigger two-guards in the game. As such, his game going to the rim leaves a lot to be desired, as Martin isn't particularly tough to nudge off course without a foul being called, and he often winds up throwing up contested off-balance shots that miss badly.
This is especially frustrating... Why not just call Ron Artest overrated leaving a lot to be desired because he's fat and weighs (was) 260. And throws up a miss after he gets fouled, because hes going for an AND 1 just like every single other player does in the NBA.
Weinman, thanks for making this world a little bit dumber.
by CAB on Nov 19, 2007 11:12 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
I encourage TZ to put a poll up, reflecting people's perception as to whether or not Kevin Martin Looks to take his shots. The poll should give an opinion based on people who actually watch the Kings.
And sorry for dumb comment. I just get really mad when people interject their opinion about something they obviously don't know anything about. I understand that you follow the NBA, but like most people (as found at ESPN) opinions should be left to teams that you actually follow and are informed about. I've tried to make a stated stance about topics that I'm not well informed of for the sake of being controversial before. And in most of those cases, I ended up looking really really stupid. The worst part of this is that with a blog you have power to influence people who likewise do not ever watch the Kings, adding a negative perception to an otherwise good all around player and person.
by CAB on Nov 19, 2007 1:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Thanks for taking the time to read and react to the points made by both TZ and myself. No sweat on the dumb comment, as I'm sure my viewpoint is one that could easily antagonize fans of both the Kings and Martin.
I partially stepped off of my original point because the fact is that from the responses of TZ and a couple others, it was clear that I had to do a little more thinking about my subject matter this time.
I don't profess to watch the Kings or Kevin Martin on a night-to-night basis. But as a general hoopshead and someone whose role at MVN is to write on the game at large, I don't imagine I need to defend the amount of time I put in following the game in a myriad of manners. I also don't profess to be dead-on, no-question-about-it right all the time, and I'm not looking merely to be controversial (we have plenty of television personalities for that). I like some of what Kevin Martin can do, but there's a lot of his game that I'm not big on as of yet, and given his apparent rise in the public eye, it was a perspective I wanted to bring to light.
Undoubtedly, I didn't bring it to light in the best way I possibly could have this time around (I'd like to think that I'm not too terrible about that as a writer in general, but that wasn't necessarily the case here). But, again, I'm far more concerned with provoking people to think from another angle and for spurring good hoops discussion than I am simply with being an absolute expert on something. Clearly, I wasn't wholly right here -- and I learned something from TZ's explanation to me, as well as that from other readers.
Whether you agree with me or not -- clearly not in this case -- I'm glad you took the time to read and consider what I had to say, and I thank you for that.
-sw
by Steve Weinman on Nov 19, 2007 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Where I disagree is that your opinion is based on watching him. Most of the things you have said, and are now retracting are the exact opposite of what you will see out of him every night. I personally don't believe that a sane person could come to the conclusions you have, while watching him. Garcia and Douby maybe, not speedracer.
by CAB on Nov 19, 2007 2:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
by Mityt on Nov 19, 2007 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Thanks for the kind words; they are very much appreciated.
As I wrote to cdoggy and TZ, it's a simple formula for me. I love the game of basketball, I love the NBA, and I love bantering about both. My goals are always to spark discussion, to provoke thought, to (hopefully) add some useful insight on my part, and to allow for both those I interact with and myself to learn.
I have read TZ some time now and have long enjoyed his writing style and respected his well-crafted opinions. If I happen to be the target of his ire, then all the more reason for me to think about what I've said more carefully, whether or not I ultimately wind up changing my opinion (partially in this case). By the same token, I wouldn't bother spending the quantities of time I do in comments sections such as this one if I didn't have a similar respect for the readers and commenters out there.
Way too long-winded a response from me for a very nice compliment from you, but once again, much thanks.
-sw
by Steve Weinman on Nov 19, 2007 4:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
by SlangNRox on Nov 19, 2007 11:33 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
by section214 on Nov 19, 2007 11:53 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
I might not make the world's best GM...but I'd like to think that (especially as a Celts fan) I could have made a case to Geoff Petrie to prevent the Orien Greene signing. Beyond that, no guarantees about my talent scouting acumen.
-sw
by Steve Weinman on Nov 19, 2007 2:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Have fun watching your Celtics this year. And tell Scot Pollard we say hello.
by section214 on Nov 19, 2007 2:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Well played, sir. Couldn't help but chuckle at that one.
I'll send my regards to Scot. I would say that I'll be playing as many crunchtime mins as he does this year, but given the depth (or lack thereof) of the Beantown bench, that simply won't be the case.
-sw
by Steve Weinman on Nov 19, 2007 3:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Thanks for taking the time to post the thought-out response to my initial column.
You definitely forced me to rethink part of what I said about Martin's game. I didn't give him enough credit in my piece regarding his ability to both shoot the ball WELL from the outside (which I know he does at 44.7 from deep) and to get to the line. I didn't look at the FT-per-FGA stat, and I should have taken a look at that beforehand.
However, I'll maintain that my mistake overall comes more in my terminology of Martin as a 'chucker' than in anything else I said. Chuckers just throw it up for the sake of it; shooters do it well. Martin is a very good shooter who does a better job than I gave him credit for of drawing fouls, but I still think his game going to the rim leaves something to be desired. He does often fail to finish well, and he does end up putting up his share of wild shots from there.
Further, while you have certainly watched him play more than I have, this was not something I wrote prior to doing that myself. I have watched Martin play several times over the past few seasons as well, and it's from that far more than the assist numbers that I conclude that he doesn't look to dish the ball. Maybe I'm the one who needs to watch more carefully, but I'm not ready to buy that this is the case. When I've watched Martin play, it has certainly appeared that he is looking to get the ball up as quickly as he can, however he can. I haven't seen a player who makes others around him better offensively so much as one who is a talented shooter and thus far a good scorer racking up the points on a bad team.
So far as I can tell, Martin's rebounds per game and -- more importantly -- his rebounds per 40 numbers fall well short of many of the league's other top scoring swingmen. Admittedly, I am still in the midst of my first plunge into advanced stats, so despite reading the glossary at the bottom of your link there, I'm not wholly sure I follow the significance of rebound rate (if you can explain it a bit more, it would be appreciated).
Simply put, near as I can see, Martin doesn't play defense.
Ultimately, I have watched the man play, and if there's a true error on my part here, it's my contention that it has to do with not going as far inside the numbers offensively as I should have on this. So far as simply watching the man play basketball is concerned, the fact to me is that he hasn't yet developed a game worthy of the star label. He IS clearly more efficient than I credited him for, and I likely should have labeled him one-dimensional or something of that sort. Because he still has a long way to go toward making his game complete.
I'm still not fully sold on all your saying, but I'll buy that there is far more of a middle ground than I initially portrayed in my column. Thanks for taking the time to address what I said, and thanks for keeping me honest.
-sw
by Steve Weinman on Nov 19, 2007 12:13 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Rebound rate measures the percent of available rebounds a player collects. It's much better than reb/game or reb/min because (like RBIs in baseball) rebounds earned are dependant on rebounds being present. Teams with good defenses have more opportunities for rebounds -- more shots are missed, there are more rebounds to go around. Teams with bad defenses (like Sacramento) have less rebound opportunities. Rebound rate adjusts for this. Martin's rebound rate has been above-average for his position since he entered the league; it is still above average though he's slipped in this department a bit.
His defense is not all-world, no. But very few offensive stars also hold the keys on defense. Kevin is not unique in this regard. And he certainly has the tools to be a good defender; he's 24 years old. This does not make him any less of a star, though. Unless, of course, you're ready to discount Steve Nash, Gilbert Arenas, Carlos Boozer, Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Michael Redd, Rashard Lewis, and Ray Allen.
Everyone's who has watched Martin more than a handful of times would disagree with you here. I think 90% of folks on this blog would say Martin needs to shoot more and defer less. I'm not sure which games you watched, but he clearly is not the selfish gunner you think he is. Ask anyone.
But hey, any attention for Kevin is good attention, I think. Cheers.
by Ziller on Nov 19, 2007 1:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Seriously, Martin (as of today) is the second leading scorer of the league with an average of 27.3 ppg (this includes the 19 point game he had against Detroit). He's behind LBJ who is averaging 29.2 points a game. Now let's take a look at the top 5 leading scorers.
- LBJ 29.2 PPG 21.8 FGA
- Kev 27.3 PPG 17.3 FGA
- Tmac 26.8 PPG 20.9 FGA
- Kobe 26.3 PPG 20.1 FGA
- Melo 25.5 PPG 19.7 FGA
I really don't get it, Michael Redd became an all-star despite the fact that he is very one dimensional and yet people are casting stones at Kev when the truth is that they are very similar players. Redd likes to shoot more jumpers and threes and Kev like to attack the rim more but they are one and the same (unless someone can prove me wrong and tell me that Redd is a superb defender).
Let's not forget that Kev is the only reason why we are not the leading candidate for Derrick Rose. He is the reason why we won games despite not having Bibby and Artest. (to be cont.)
by kingme on Nov 20, 2007 1:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Kevin Durant was the 2nd pick of this years draft and is considered the savior of the sonics. Truth be told, Durant is a chucker. He is takins more shots than Kev while only averaging 19.0 points per game on an abysmal 37.4% from the field, and yet analysts are saying that he is going to be a star some day, if he is not one already. Martin is not a star? Give me a break
by kingme on Nov 20, 2007 1:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
First Kevin does look to shoot the ball , but last time I checked that is the job of the "shooting guard".
Secondly, he will however pass up a shot that will not have a good shot of going in or get him to the line. He does not often take uncontested off balance shots.
Third, he is very, very efficient. Take Fridays game vs the Knicks for example. 43 pts on 21 shots. How many other teams in the league would have their leading scorer in a double overtime game take less than 21 shots? I'm guessing not many.
Lastly, I think Martin is an adequate defender. Like TZ stated this does not decide a star. With a few years and a few more pounds he will become more effective as a defender. While not in the top of the league in steals he does average around 1.5 spg.
by kangsfan on Nov 19, 2007 3:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Then I thought, ok maybe he's seen him play, just not that much. But I had a hard time thinking of even short stretches of play where Kevin Martin is the type of player you described. Sure, he tends to disappear at times, but a "chucker?" C'mon.
Anyway, I think I've come up with a logical explanation. You must have been given some sort of anti-Kevin-Martin propoganda tape. It possibly came from a high ranking government official, or even somebody from deep within the NBA brass. Either way I'm sure it was the same guys behind Game 6, Duane Causewell, and Eric Musselman's power point presentation. Let me ask you this, was the tape you watched full of clips of Kevin Martin dribbling down court, shooting up a shot, then a poorly cut-in close-up of a ball clanging off a rim? If so, then I'm afraid you've been had, my friend.
by Grant Napears Taint on Nov 19, 2007 9:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
by Ball in Cup on Nov 19, 2007 2:20 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly with the explanation.
Ultimately, I still don't see eye-to-eye with you (and most of the Sactown readership, I would assume) on this one, but again, I certainly recognize that there were several points you made that I should have taken into better account in my initial column.
As I wrote to cdoggy, however it comes about, I'm glad to provoke discussion on the game and always glad to learn something wherever possible. Much thanks for the time.
-sw
by Steve Weinman on Nov 19, 2007 2:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
by Ziller on Nov 19, 2007 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Anytime. Been admiring your work from afar for a while now, and I'm always happy to be in the thick of discussion.
Whenever I can make the time, I'll be looking to get more involved with being a part of the discussion here. The job you've done creating a community forum here is incredible.
Thanks for having me.
-sw
P.S. Don't know why this comment didn't nest in the thread the first time I posted it, which is why it's going up again. Apologies for any confusion.
by Steve Weinman on Nov 19, 2007 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
I have a problem with this, from SW's full article:
"...the reason Martin shouldn't be considered a star in this league is that, unlike other top scorers, he doesn't make his teammates better. LeBron and Kobe force defenses to change for them. Tracy McGrady and Melo Anthony both move the ball very well for scoring swingmen. Baron Davis can be an even better distributor than scorer when he is in the mood."
Baron Davis is a point guard, That's like saying Garnett isn't a star 'cause he doesn't get as many assists as Nash.
Lebron and Kobe, and McGrady and Melo to a lesser extent, all initiate their teams offense, much of the time. The Kings don't start their offense with Kmart pounding the ball out near the logo, looking to beat his man and drive.
I also think if the Kings had an athletic big who could catch the ball and finish, Kevin would dish off of more of his drives. Brad Miller is NOT that man, Mikki Moore is NOT that man.
Regarding defense, I think Kevin's been working a lot harder on that end this season. Last night for instance Hamilton wasn't really a factor and shot 5-13. I assume Kevin was guarding him much of the night, since I can only listen to the games.
All that said, I agree Kmart has a ways to go to be considered a top rank star. I'd trade him straight up for Lebron and probably Melo. Considering the current state of the Kings and that it will probably be 2-4 years before we're ready to make another competitive run, I'd rather have Kmart at 24 years old than Kobe at 29, or McGrady at 28. And there's no way I'd trade Kevin for 28 year old Baron Davis and his only played more than 60 games in 2 of his last 6 years.
by Kfan in Korea on Nov 19, 2007 4:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Just a quick clarification about the Baron Davis point I made, since I'm not sure we're on the same wavelength about that. I wasn't suggesting that Martin's flaw is that he doesn't distribute the ball the way Davis does (I'm well cognizant of the fact that BD is a point and Martin isn't), but simply that the list of other players I mentioned help their teams in multiple facets of the game and make their teammates better. My intimation here was that Martin comes off to me as largely one-dimensional.
Hope that clears up what I was saying.
-sw
by Steve Weinman on Nov 19, 2007 4:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
This is only Kevin's 2nd full season as a starter, and last year we rarely ran plays for him. He was usually the 3rd option after Bibby and Artest.
So this is his first season as the go-to guy. Hopefully we'll see some improvement in this area over the course of the season. At this point I think he's a bit better than Peja during the 3/4 of a season Webber was out with a knee.
by Kfan in Korea on Nov 19, 2007 4:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Anytime. Been admiring your work from afar for a while now, and I'm always happy to be in the thick of discussion.
Whenever I can make the time, I'll be looking to get more involved with being a part of the discussion here. The job you've done creating a community forum here is incredible.
Thanks for having me.
-sw
by Steve Weinman on Nov 19, 2007 4:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
all three games against the sonics last year:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=261124025
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270210025
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270211023
by CrownUs93 on Nov 19, 2007 4:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Thanks for dropping the knowledge. Granted, no one's ever accused Ray-Ray over being a world-class defender in his own right (in the time between the Allen deal and the KG acquisition, it appeared a team led by Pierce and Allen could give up 200 a night). But all tongue-in-cheek jokes aside, the numbers are indeed impressive.
Looking forward to watching Martin more than ever now throughout the season as I continue to evaluate my initial comments on the matter.
-sw
by Steve Weinman on Nov 19, 2007 5:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's a question....
I'm sure it's a lot more than 21 shots.Maybe a shooting guard like kobe is the chuckster, while K-Mart is simply....efficient.
And while it may be true he lacks the strength to finish at the hoop when he drives to the line, I like that he tries.& I want him to keep trying. It takes guts to drive in there when you're such a beanpole against the big boys.
Kinda reminds me of Rip Hamilton on that point; a little more weight and some 'd' I think he could be a better player than Rip.He's allready nore efficient in his shot-selection.
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/rhondda
by Rhondda Nunes on Nov 19, 2007 6:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Kevin isn't a chucker, he's amazing
I agree Kevin is untouchable unless Orlando is willing to ship Dwight Howard our way.
by kingme18 on Nov 19, 2007 10:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
Lose the first goal, put the third one first in line, call all other goals besides the "insight" one "less important goals," and you'll be OK.
by KD on Nov 20, 2007 12:38 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
by kingme on Nov 20, 2007 1:13 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
First the reason we Martin faithful love the kid is we watched the journey. Barely used to to quick study as a reserve/starter to efficient scorer to stud. It's hard for someone who didn't watch that develop over time, and the way it developed, combined with the circumstances that surrounded it, and not feel the way about Kmart the way we do. I'm not offended but I don't get it. If Kevin Martin had any defining characteristic IT WAS HE WAS THE ANTI-CHUCKER. Kevin has some area's I would love to see him expand/develop but learning to curb the chucking isn't on that list.
by pookeyguru on Nov 20, 2007 1:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Kevin Martin: Not a Chucker
by kingme on Nov 20, 2007 2:00 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
There are Warrior fans plotting your death
by pookeyguru on Nov 20, 2007 2:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: There are Warrior fans plotting your death
by kingme on Nov 20, 2007 7:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever....bring it on!
(chanted by yours truly during the Knicks game....seemed to turn out o.k.).
by Rhondda Nunes on Nov 20, 2007 1:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
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