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Around SBN: Kentucky Wildcats 66, Alabama Crimson Tide, 55: Postmortem

Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?

Hoopsworld drops in on the Kings' search for a head coach, and posts a few names into the mix, including Dallas' Del Harris, former Pacer coach Rick Carlisle, and Sam Mitchell. (I'm personally hoping it's not Harris. I just don't want to see his hair patrolling the sidelines for 82 games)

But beyond the coach, Hoopsworld also unsurprisingly offers up three tidbits.

  1. The Kings are looking to move Mike Bibby
  2. The Kings are looking to move Shareef Abdur-Rahim
  3. The Kings are hoping to resign Kevin Martin pronto before he hits the FA market.
Today, you're the GM. Who stays? Who goes? (PookeyGuru's "trade rumors" diary also is a great start)

0 recs  |  Comment 44 comments

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Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
Everyone on the team should be available except for Kevin Martin.  Artest and Kenny Thomas should be the first to go.  The Kings need to get younger and more athletic, and the vets on the team now can't provide that.  

by Carl on May 1, 2007 8:47 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
So by everyone, you mean Garcia should be a trading cog as well? What about Justin Williams? Or do you mean just the previous generation?
Kings-obsessed. A's obsessed. More ramblings: louisgray.com

by louismg on May 1, 2007 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
I agree with you.  Yes, it would be nice to retool, but we need to keep Garcia, Martin, and Williams.  I don't know if it's really feasible to get rid of the big 3 because of their contracts, but I think it would be best if we could send Bibby, Miller, Thomas, Artest, and Abdur-Rahim on their way.

by jacquetbg on May 1, 2007 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
Louis,

Yes, those guys too.  You don't look to trade them, but let's say we've got a deal on the table that sends Artest, Kenny Thomas and Garcia somewhere to get Kirilenko and a first rounder in return.  You do that trade because it rids you of two big problem children and nets a guy who solves about 100 problems for the Kings.

This team cannot get better as it is currently configured.  Nearly every major minutes guy on the Kings is either at his peak or on the downside of his career.  Everything and (nearly) everybody has to be on the table.

by Carl on May 1, 2007 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
Why do you call out Artest and Thomas first?  Well, I take that back: I am right with you regarding Thomas. I am assuming that you want Artest to go because he is, well, nuts - not because he isn't bringing it on the court. As I said a few days back, Artest was this teams best player the last two months of the season.

Unfortunately, I doubt Thomas is going anywhere. What GM would want him? And, if you trade Artest, you are unlikely to get dollar for dollar value. Like him or not, Artest is one of the league's best two-way players. Getting equal value for him, given his infamous reputation, probably isn't going to happen.

I certainly don't envy Petrie this off-season. There is no easy fix because of our combo of unattractive players and even uglier contracts.  

by Kusian on May 1, 2007 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
So if we have unattractive players and contracts, does that responsibility lie with the GM, the owners, or the players themselves? I'd argue Petrie is somewhat to blame for the mess he put himself in. Right?
Kings-obsessed. A's obsessed. More ramblings: louisgray.com

by louismg on May 1, 2007 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
This is a long complicated mess louis. Sort of liike wondering how eric chavez isn't the most overrated a's player ever. Only this is alot more complicated. Eric doesnt hit. Petrie had a team contending for a title when these deals were given out. All in all you can find other teams who had transistions similar. You will find given the circumstances you can't do much better. I know that's a copout for 'lord geoff' but there is alot to this story. How you choose to look at it is up to you.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 1, 2007 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
I think Geoff is a much better judge of young talent, which shows in his success via the draft. Trades and free agents...not so much.

However, I'd love to see him get a shot at a complete teardown and rebuild of this team, rather than continuing to build on the fly.

This franchise, and Geoff Petrie by extension, is a victim of it's own success IMO.

by otis29 on May 1, 2007 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
I would think it's obvious why I picked Artest.  There's no point in rehashing the litany of problems he's caused in the last year.  The guy may not even be playing basketball in a year.  You get rid of him while you still can.

The other issue I have is that I don't want to root for Artest because of the kind of person he is.  I'd  rather root for a mediocre player who's a good guy than a guy like Artest.

KT needs to go because he's just terrible.  His rebounding is only decent and he doesn't give you anything else at all.  I've been saying all year that Justin Williams is better than KT right now, and JW doesn't make $8 million per year.  KT is obviously untradeable by himself, but could be packaged with another player to get him out of Sacramento.

by Carl on May 1, 2007 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
So why don't we go out and get a bunch of mediocre players so we can root for their morality. Let's see how many W's that gets us.

KT is a mediocre player. He never gets in legal trouble. Don't you want to root for him?

by evanmeagan on May 2, 2007 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
Yes, I'd rather root for Kenny Thomas (who is a terrible basketball player) than someone like Ron Artest.  

There are more important things in life than winning basketball games.  

by Carl on May 3, 2007 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
Agree with the assesment that Artest needs to go, but not with the reasoning. If what you really care about are wins/losses, then it should be OK to have players with some (tolerable) measure of off-court problems as long as they are contributing to wins. Rodman, AI, Steven Jackson are some examples of players with off-court issues, yet have still be able to contribute to winning teams with their on-court performance.

Problem with Artest is that despite statistically "good play", it does not translate to wins. Watching the games, you can see why. Poor descision making. Poor shot selection. Breaking plays. Inability to stay in the flow of the offense. Failure to involve teamates or make them better.

Does this mean that Artest wouldn't thrive under a different coach? Or that he could never be part of a deep playoff team? I' not sure, but these are the things we should be focusing on more than his off-court problems.

by henryclemente on May 2, 2007 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
to quote adam proteau 'espléndido'
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 2, 2007 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
No....please....not Del Harris.   So many good choices out there, leave Del alone.

by jacquetbg on May 1, 2007 10:01 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
They need to get rid of Kenny Thomas, Artest, then Miller. The Poodle is just downright horrible. Artest for obvious reasons and Miller because he doesn't ever seem to want to play ball. I know he had problems with his foot this year too so I don't see that getting better with his age.

The need to keep Martin, Justin Williams and Garcia, all for obvious reasons, age and athleticism. The rest of the team can stay or go.

Personally, I'd like to keep Ronnie Price, just for his energy. He is definitely this teams new Bobby Jackson and needs some more PT to get his shot down. Salmons never impressed me and Shareef is slow but still has a bit of a post game so that might be nice to keep too. Corliss would be nice for that energy off the bench and his wisdom for the young guys.

by dreardon on May 1, 2007 10:50 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
We're very close on this.

I believe Kenny Thomas has no talent. Miller is too old and time has passed him by. Artest for me is day to day. A potential great player who has too many spikes, off and on the court.

Martin and Garcia are keepers. Williams I see as a good 6th man some day, if not a starter.

Shareef also didn't have any energy this year. I like him for non-analytic reasons, but didn't see anything this season.

Bibby's time has passed too. He should be moved.

Kings-obsessed. A's obsessed. More ramblings: louisgray.com

by louismg on May 1, 2007 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
Kenny Thomas is not a stud. But he isn't a scrub either. Kenny has alot of quirks and a long contract. On the other hand Larry Brown is the guy who signed him to it. Dont blame Kenny blame his drama queen father.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 1, 2007 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
But can't we blame Kenny for averaging 5 points and 6 rebounds a game?

Can't we blame him for pouting if he doesn't start?

Can't we blame him for not setting the pick and just rolling to the hoop every time when he knows he isn't going to get the ball?

And lastly, can't we blame him for for his play being so horrible that no one in the league would trade for him regardless of contract status?

Just a few questions Pooky.

We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 on May 1, 2007 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
Yes but that dont make him a scrub.  That makes him an asshole.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 1, 2007 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
Kenny is not without blame for the reasons you mention

The point I would raise is that is it not incumbant on the coach to get the most out of the players you have on the roster.  If you look at the dead weight on the roster mentioned on this site, Miller, Bibby, Thomas Abdul Rahim to varying degrees.  You can't bench them all.  Kenny can rebound and play D, he seemed to be doing ok with that earlier in the year, then he fell off the face of the earth.  To me you have to play guys to get value for them then deal them.  

In short you need a coach who can relate and communicate with the talent he has, to get them to buy in to what he is selling and to tell guys what there rolls are

by Murf on May 1, 2007 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
Does that remind anyone of a certain coach who has similar features to hitler?
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 1, 2007 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
The person who deserves the most blame is the coach.
Who cares if KT pouts when he doesn't start? He's not a team leader. The team wouldn't have fallen apart if, god forbid, KT isn't happy.
Adelman and Mussleman were weak on this. Could they just not tell the guy no?

I think we would have been able to tolerate KT if he was strictly an off the bench player. He could come in and provide some defense for short stretches.

by evanmeagan on May 2, 2007 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
May i remind that you shareef started until z-bo shattered his jaw? And that kenny didnt start when he initially got traded here either.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 2, 2007 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
Okay here's my comment. Thx for the nice words louis. Uhm and as far as del harris goes HELL NO. Ditto with carlisle. Hoopsworld prints alot of crap. I read through that piece and i found it to be mostly uesless. The interesting piece of info to me was that kiki would take durant 1st if he got that pick. More than any single thing.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 1, 2007 11:11 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
If memory serves, Artest and Carlisle don't mix.  Carlisle is an awesome coach, though, so maybe the Kings will see fit to bring him in while giving Ron the boot.  I bet they could liquidate him for draft picks and an expiring contract.

by SJP on May 1, 2007 11:32 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
To trade you need another team to take your players, is there really a market for most of the "talent" the Kings have?

Thomas - unlikely is an overpaid role player with a long term dea who sulks if he doesn't start/play

Miller will he ever be healthy?  Does he really care? Is basketball important to him?

Bibby clutch shooter, can score, couldn't guard a blind man in a phone box, not overly keen on listening to coaching. is owed decent money but only for two more years.  A team in contention would value his scoring and other talent could hide his defensive liabilities, If J will can play for championship winner Bibby can!

Artest, a talent but has "baggage"

Petrie and the Kings got the short end of the stick with Webber getting hurt, they either were stuck with him or they took what they could get and got other teams bad contracts.  Could you imagine what it would be like if Webb was still her and they traded for Artest, good luck coaching that group.  What other options did Petrie have once Webber got hurt, after last year this team looked like a playoff contender, it will be interesting to see what happens now

For a new coach I don't want a lifer ie the Del Harris, (would he want to leave Dallas anyway?), I'm for picking a Mario Elie, Ivaroni type.

One for Adelman he got the players he had to play to the best of there abilities, Thomas was decent last year in spots

Jason Williams is nice, it would be good to have him coming off the bench to provide rebounds and energy and see what he can become.  I would not give him big money.  But if a Toronto cames along and offers him a Yogi Stewart type deal I'd wish him well.  Its the same issue with Ronnie Price, if he is your back up point thats not good, but as guy 8-10 on the bench thats great

If you act in haste you tend to repent at leisure

by Murf on May 1, 2007 11:45 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
GReat points murf. You hit much of what's gone on (not all but hell who does?) for the last several years. Your last quote is excellent.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 1, 2007 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
i think you have to go young and see who establishes themselves as the leader of this team.  you trade bibby and miller, and even take a little less in the miller trade just to get rid of him.  let's face it, with the way the team is stacked right now, there is no way the team is going to win a championship, but the playoffs aren't totally out of reach.  and with the young players, making the playoffs would be a start.  then rebuild this thing in the next couple of years through the draft and free agency.

as for shareef, he is nice off the bench so i wouldn't be opposed to him staying.  he is a quality guy and you can always use those.  

i say build around martin, garcia, price, williams and a free agent and/or draft pick.  the kings have nice young talent and with the help of the draft and/or free agency they could be dangerous to play.

 

by Cynema the Band on May 1, 2007 11:57 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-070501

Hollinger makes a great point about iverson. This marriage may not last like he & melo maintains. Stay tuned. Denver unlike GS, hasn't seemed to take advantage of all it's opportunities. Also SA isn't quite pulled the choke job like Dal has.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 1, 2007 11:58 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
What's the difference between Mavs coach Don Nelson and Raptors coach Sam Mitchell?

Well, I can think of quite a few differences, but one is called "Not freaking out when his best player gets two fouls."

Nelson made the most underrated coaching move of the playoffs last night. Or non-move, I guess you'd call it. With 8:07 to go in the first quarter, Baron Davis picked up his second foul when he charged into Dallas' Devin Harris. The book says to take Davis out for the rest of the quarter; Nelson just shrugged his shoulders and left him to continue wreaking havoc on the court. Davis ended up playing 44 minutes, leading the Warriors to a 103-99 win and a shocking 3-1 series lead over the Mavs. But he could do that only because Nelly allowed him to.

You have to understand what a knee-jerk move this is for almost every coach in the league. Virtually every time a player gets two fouls in the opening quarter, the coach will sit him out the rest of the first quarter, and for good measure a little bit of the second. For good measure, the coach will take him out again toward the end of the first half, because God forbid he use three of his six fouls before halftime.

What ends up happening is rather ironic. The outcome the coach is trying to avoid -- losing a player to his sixth foul -- is effectively guaranteed by him instead, as he diminishes the player's minutes much more than a sixth foul in the fourth quarter could ever do. And as I keep reminding people, points in the first and second quarter count just as much as they do in the fourth.

In fact, that knee-jerk coaching reaction is exactly what Sam Mitchell did with Chris Bosh in Game 1 of the Nets-Raptors series, and it's something he may have all summer to ponder. Playing most of the half without Bosh meant Toronto carried a nine-point deficit into the break, and when the Raptors couldn't make it up after halftime the Nets had the one road win they needed to take the series.  

Interesting point about nellie vs sam mitchell. I really wish had the whole insider story. I dont have insider unfortunately. Oh well.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 1, 2007 12:10 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
This insight here is very good. End of game minutes are as important as 2nd quarter minutes, just like end of season games count the same in the standings. Trust your players and they will come through. Don't panic because of ticky-tack fouls.
Kings-obsessed. A's obsessed. More ramblings: louisgray.com

by louismg on May 1, 2007 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
I disagree. But i haven't read the whole article louis. If you could post it somewhere (the entire piece if you would) then ill write my actual opinion on it.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 1, 2007 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
I'd personally like to see us go after Ivaraoni(sp.) grab a mike conley jr in the draft and just run up and down the court, ala the Suns.  That way at least our rebuilding years are entertaining.  I am pretty sure I read this somewhere, but I agree with whoever proposed this idea initially.

Obviously this wouldn't work with the likes of Miller since he can hardly jog let alone run, unfortunately we are going to end up taking other peoples contracts to get rid of ours. It should be an interesting off-season either way, as I see us making a lot of different moves regardless of which coach/philosophies we adopt.

Final thought, we definitely need a coach before our speculation on players makes any sense...

by moproblemz on May 1, 2007 1:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
Good points mo. 1 more thing. The draft lottery is going to make some teams deal and keep a few from dealing. Where everything falls in that first is going to be the lynchpin for alot of dealing this summer. If you're a fan of free agency players swapping and complicated trades this will be the summer of you. I'm already wetting myself in anticpation.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 1, 2007 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
Mo I also feel that you are on to something here. Bibby is probably our best asset for trading followed by Artest. I think we can get the bigs we need from dealing both of them and then draft Conley Jr.

If we would have stayed at the 8 pick I think the whole team would look different than it does with the 10 pick. With Hibbert, Oden, Horford and Wright gone, we have no choice but to either draft the 5th or 6th best big man or the #1 point.

Dream situation we would get one of the first three picks and get the stud we need to help us today. We would still deal Artest but, Bibby and Martin make for a nice back court for the immediate future. Living in reality and planning for us to pick at 10, I would rather draft Conley than Noah and build from there.

Lastly, Petrie is the architect. After watching what has happened to Dallas, who is considered a good defensive team, I see us going to coach "I" and trying to outscore everyone again. Offense sells tickets, this sad attempt at playing defense does not.

We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 on May 1, 2007 3:08 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
I think because of a combination of poor years and contracts that run into the next century, B-Rad and the Poodle/K9 are here to stay unfortunately as everyone has already mentioned.  We should be able to move Bibby and Artest because they still have some value and moveable contracts.  Reef might also be a prime candidate to be moved.  His contract isn't quite the albatross that some of the others on this team are and contending teams are always looking for a low post scoring option.  With that being said I see Martin, Garcia, Douby, Miller, Thomas, Salmons, and Williams as probable returns to the roster.
Damn you Robert Horry!!!

by chupacabra on May 1, 2007 4:11 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
We can probably deal Douby in a package with other players and Salmons could yield us a about as much as Shareef. The best possible situation in my book is to jettison both of these guys because they are not long term fixes. We wasted 25 million on Salmons when we could have had Matt Barnes for less than 1 mill. Martin, Garcia and Williams (I would love to keep Price as well but I doubt he wants to come back) should be the staring point. Add Miller because he is untradeble and just pay Kenny Thomas off and ask him to leave.
We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 on May 1, 2007 5:35 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
The kings aren't the knicks...so no point in wishing them to buy off k9 cuz they wont. It's 1 thing to do it with jason hart who's doing NOTHING for you and doesn't but have 2 more months on the season. It's quite another to do it with a guy who's got 22 mil coming over 3 more years. The kings cant afford to do that.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 1, 2007 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
should i stay or should i blow......
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 1, 2007 5:45 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
I know they aren't going to buy him out but they should. He is a disruptive ass who needs to be some where else, much like Ron-Ron.
We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 on May 1, 2007 7:58 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
I don't think K9 was utilized properly, EVER under Muss. Musselman never gave K9 an opportunity to show what he can do offensively. Let's not forget has had 30 point outbursts with us under Adelman. I don't think Muss ever gave him a chance offensively and K9 quite frankly never understood why.
I wish for the Greg Oden Era.

by kingme18 on May 1, 2007 10:30 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
frankly who doesnt fall under that boat on this roster kingme?
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 1, 2007 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
Miami is looking for a PG :D please let it be wright

by kingme on May 2, 2007 2:04 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Who Should Stay? Who Should Go?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2654216

Interesting stuff about FA's
Ill have a diary later this week about 10 'groups' of players that I think have a strong chance going.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on May 6, 2007 9:45 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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