International John Salmons Underground Appreciation Society

by Tom Ziller on Jan 11, 2008 7:47 AM PST in Recaps

This man is a beast from heaven.

I won't belabor in reminding you of the general John Salmons sentiment spread through Sacramento this time last season. His debut season -- the best statistical effort of his career -- was so underwhelming even Geoff Petrie asserted he needed to stop handing out long-term mid-level contracts. Basically, the man who pulls the trigger did something he never does, and admitted a deal was a mistake (in his muted, philosophical way, of course). Guess what? John Salmons was no mistake.

Even through the early hotness this year, skepticism reigned. And why not? All players get hot, some to extremes farther than the norm. When Salmons joined Kevin Martin to form a Big Two in the absence of a point guard or a power forward, it was nice, it was a surprise, it was mildly glorious if only for new opportunities of the mind to sprout. "Ah, interesting, Salmons can play a little. Hmm." We severely underestimated our pious partner in mid-range destruction.

This string, ah, it's unbelievable. (That he almost went home sick, and instead delivered 44 minutes of salvation is but the latest revelation.) In five January games, his line looks like this:

23 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals

One game was in doubt due to a sprained ankle, a second due to the flu. His season has been on par with Jason Richardson ($12 million a year), Vince Carter ($15 million a year), and Brandon Roy (reigning R.O.Y.). He is quickly fleeing the Land of Nice Piece, hopping the border to the Unified States of the Key Cog Republic and threatening to invade the Commonwealth of the Centerpiece (population: Kevin Martin).

What John Salmons has done is on par with Martin's 2005-06 ascension. Like Martin back then, Salmons is getting little attention.

But we know. We are here. We appreciate you, John.

UPDATE: I believe our friend Kelly Dwyer has signed on to the Society.

UPDATE #2: Pre-emptive membership for Empty the Bench.

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Comments

Wow well put

Excellent analogy to Kmart's 05 06 (a forgotten part in how they rose in the 2nd half after Artest arrived).

That line is something of pure amazement to me. It's not the points that amazes me. It's the other 3 parts of that line. 7 boards? This is your starting SG. 5 dimes? Again that's your starting SG. And he's dipping into his repertoire some more with 2 steals. Lord have mercy. He's Jesus II.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Jan 11, 2008 7:53 AM PST reply actions

I was waiting...

for the 41 game mark (half the season) to pose the question - Who is this team's MVP? I was going to list Miller, Salmons, Udrih, Moore and Garcia, since they are the only guys that have played a lot. A couple of weeks ago this would have made for an interesting competition between Miller, Salmons and Udrih. But now John Salmons is threatening to turn the question into a joke. Brad's strength has always been his all around play, but recently Salmons is besting that. And he is now making his teammates better, just like Miller and Udrih. Given his ability, Garcia's emergence, Martin's return, and Dahntay Jones' spot duty ability, I sure hope someone comes along and offers us something huge for Ron Artest.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 11, 2008 8:19 AM PST reply actions

If Salmons kept these up over the course

of a season Section he would easily make Bill Simmon's top 50 most valuable in trades column. Which is not easy to get on since he managed to omit Kmart for Monta Ellis this past year.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Jan 11, 2008 8:27 AM PST up reply actions

Miller

It's still Miller. Miller has started playing like a big man. Not only does he blocks shots now but he has clearly shown us time and again that he can DUNK :o Salmons has been really good this year but we have tons of swingmen. I doubt we'd have 14 wins had Brad gone down instead of Artest or Kev. That would surely mean that K9 would get minutes

by kingme on Jan 11, 2008 9:47 AM PST up reply actions

disagree but

John is clearly the MVP at this point - not even close. Still, it is easy to forget that Miller is the glue. He keeps the floor spread and injects sanity into the half court offense. TZ made the brilliant comparisono to Vlade back when we were good. Very similar offensive skill set that we've seen this year (though Vlade was a much better post defender.)

I also love the way that Miller is running the court this year. What a change from last year!

Beno is similar to Miller in that when he is out the offense sputters. It was beautiful watching him carve up Memphis last night. I know everybody is enamored with Connely's speeed, but Beno tore him a new one last night. The PG contest wasn't even close. Think Bibby would have gotten to the hoop like that? (Though he would have probably jacked up seven or eight 3-pointers.)

by Kusian on Jan 11, 2008 11:08 AM PST up reply actions

re: Miller

Is Miller running the floor and dunking what we can call the Lobster effect? If so, I say Miller should put the cornrows back in his hair and throw up some gang signs! (This, however, is not an excuse for the death of the outside shot.)

Either way it's a good thing. Moore is showing Brad some new ways to cut to the basket and dunk hard. If only Brad could teach the lobster to have softer claws.

by tokyo on Jan 11, 2008 12:14 PM PST up reply actions

la verdad

You speak truth, sir!

by Kusian on Jan 11, 2008 12:51 PM PST up reply actions

How can Theus sit this guy down?

When Artest and Martin come back some hard decisions will need to be made. Stay with Salmans.

by KingsFan on Jan 11, 2008 9:21 AM PST reply actions

Salmons

Salmons is dope, but you guys are gonna have to realize how deep we are in the back court/swingmen positions.

When everyone is healthy we are gonna have

Bibby and Udrih at the point and then Martin, Artest, Salmons, Cisco, Douby, and Dahntay (the inevitable loser of this battle) fighting for minutes.

And we HAVE to play Bibby and Artest big minutes, because we're trying to trade them.

Salmons is gonna have to take the next month or so with the solace that, after Martin, he's the second piece of the puzzle.

On the other hand, this trade works on ESPN's Trade machine:

Kings get Eric Snow, Shannon Brown, Drew Gooden, Ira Newble, J-Will, Donyell Marshall, Devin Brown, CLE's #1 and MIA's #1 for Reef, Bibby, Kenny Thomas, and Ron

Cleveland gets Zo's contract (and injury exception), Reef, Ricky Buckets, Bibby, and Smush for Snow, the Browns, Gooden, Damon Jones, Ira Newble, Marshall and their #1

Miami gets Damon Jones, Kenny Thomas, and Ron for Zo's contract, Ricky, J-Will, Smush and their #1

Everyone's happy right?

by thashizzz on Jan 11, 2008 9:30 AM PST reply actions

Oh yeah to finish this off....

basically to finish the trade off....

We get $33 mil in salaries to come off the cap in the next two years (including a trial run with Gooden and J-Will....and who doesn't want to hear the inevitable stories about how much J-Will's matured since his last stay here?)....and two picks...we also shed Kenny and Reef's contracts

Miami gets three assets (Kenny would be a rotation guy on that team) including the shooter they need and the SF they want the most....and basically give up two assets (Zo's contract/injury exception and their top pick...obviously if they decide to give up on the season, they don't do this trade)

Cleveland gets essentially four assets, including two starters (in Ricky Davis and Bibby), for a bunch of contracts and a low first rounder. Their willingness to do this deal would probably hinge on Reef, and if they think he has ANYTHING left in the tank. Basically we need to sell Reef's performance against Duncan in the playoffs a couple years ago, cuz that's what Cleveland's really looking for.

by thashizzz on Jan 11, 2008 9:36 AM PST up reply actions

It's been done before as far

as trading guys hurt. But I don't see how that would work during these days. But if that's what works I say go for it. Anything that nets this team draft picks and cap space spread out over the next 2 seasons is fine with me.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Jan 11, 2008 9:40 AM PST up reply actions

7-4

How are we going to fit 7 roster spots when we are sending away 4?

I'd rather not cut Dahntay.

But we should do what we have to to get rid of all those players if the opportunity arises.

balls to the walls

by kangsfan on Jan 11, 2008 11:53 AM PST up reply actions

Glad you asked

Basically, I'd waive Snow and the two Browns. None of them are gonna get any P.T. out of us anyway.

by thashizzz on Jan 11, 2008 12:04 PM PST up reply actions

Far fetched but

I'd do it in a heart beat. We need to get Salmons and Martin on the floor together full time and see where we go from there. As for Beno, I think he runs this team well and we should make an effort to keep him after the season. Brad's on the down end of his career but we could get a few more solid years out of him. I don't however think Gooden's the answer at the 4 so we need to use those expiring contracts to lure in a 4 or 5 possibly and move Brad to the 4.

balls to the walls

by kangsfan on Jan 11, 2008 12:22 PM PST up reply actions

Basically....

basically, i don't think anyone in the organization is ready to give up on Hawes, so he fixes into our plans somehow. If we were to get a higher lottery pick, we could go after one of the studs in the draft but as we stand now, i dont see how we don't go after Kevin Love at UCLA.

Watch a UCLA game, tell me his skill set doesn't remind you of Brad or Vlade in their primes. And the fact that mock drafts have him around the 18th pick is crazy! How are we going to draft a stiff like Roy Hibbert over him? Hibbert is big and he can dunk. But that's it! We JUST drafted a guy like that in Hawes. If Hawes and Love developed in our front court, the sky would be the limit on our young starting 5 of Beno, K-Mart, Salmons, Hawes and Love. Plenty of offense/scoring in our backcourt combined with defense/glue guys in our front court.

Basically what we need in our front court is some guys to start on short term contracts, like a Mikki or (potentially) a Gooden. Just to fill time until Hawes and whoever we draft this year are ready.

I think our organization values our players like this, in terms of trade value:

1.) K-Mart.....you'd have to knock our socks off...

2.) Salmons....if we can get multiple picks, we'd throw him in a Bibby or Artest deal, otherwise see K-Mart

3.) Hawes....at this point, we have somewhat of a commitment to him. We'll have to see how he develops, because he will get EVERY chance to succeed as a King

4.) Udrih....we'd like to keep him and re-sign him, but if we find something better for cheaper or Bibby out plays him, he's free game

5.) Cisco.....We'd rather give up Douby in Artest/Bibby trades, but if we have to throw in Cisco for a good draft pick, we'll do it. But we probably aren't willing to give up both of them

6.) Douby....Again, we'd like to keep him, but we may need to use him in Ron/Mike talks.

7.) Brad....we'd like to keep him at least long enough to cycle in Hawes' development. Plus Brad's having his best season in 3 years, and more importantly, he's staying healthy (knock on wood)

8.) Bibby....Udrih is playing better than Mike did last year, and we've always questioned Mike's D. In a perfect world we could keep both of them, but not with Mike's imperfect contract.

9.) Artest....At this moment, we'd rather give him up than Bibby. Why? Because it's becoming evident that Salmons and Ron can't co-exist on offense. And Salmons is more important than Udrih.

10.) Mikki Moore....we wouldn't be against moving Moore, but the question is, who would really want him enough to make us a decent offer?

11.) Jones.....We still really haven't figured out what we have in this guy. So we could go either way with him.

12.) Justin Williams....not sure where we stand on him, but he doesn't play and he was accused of rape, so I'm pretty sure he's not untouchable....

13.) Shareef.....We like him better than Kenny because aside from never playing and being overpaid, at least he's a good cheerleader. But if you gave us much of anything, you could have him. In fact, if you really want Ron or Mike, we're gonna try to pawn Reef or Kenny off to you.

14.) Kenny.....Please take him....go ahead! Take him!

by thashizzz on Jan 11, 2008 2:10 PM PST up reply actions

interesting post

Nice post. I have not thought it through all the way, but I did notice that I was nodding quite a bit while reading it.

Hawes is freakin' 19! You bet your a** he's going to get every opportunity. Have you seen how beautiful that jump shot is already? I hear that he has a very good post game as well, but the Kings do not run anything for him down there. I really hope that Brad can be productive for a couple of more years because when you look at Spencer you see a large boy not a man. He's got some growing and maturing to do. I really think that he's going to be an offensive monster in about 3 years.

I really like the 2010 Kings! I just hate having to wait through the "rebuilding" years....

by Kusian on Jan 11, 2008 3:37 PM PST up reply actions

poor man's bron?

do I go much overboard if I say that Salmons is a poor man's Lebron? Similar skillset, similar size, similar look

by cwebb on Jan 11, 2008 9:37 AM PST reply actions

hmmm

I guess you can argue that

Last 2 weeks
LBJ 6 games/41.8 mins/28.8 points/1.2 3s/7.8 rebs/6.5 assists/2.2 steals/0.5 blocks/2.8 to/48.5% fg%/71.4% ft%

Salmons 7 games/41.1 mins/23.0 points/0.6 3s/6.4 rebs/4.1 assists/1.7 steals/0.1 blocks/4.0 to/58.4% fg%/92.6% ft%

by kingme on Jan 11, 2008 9:52 AM PST up reply actions

Going on record

I just want to go on record that I was completely, absolutely and in all other ways dead wrong about The Fish. I thought it was a bad signing and said the guy would never be more than a decent bench player. Wrong, wrong, WRONG.

Geoff Petrie may have his thumb stuck permanently up his butt, but he's still a better basketball GM than I am.

by Carl on Jan 11, 2008 9:42 AM PST reply actions

So Carl

Does that make you in favor of one seafood signing (Salmons) and against the other (lobster claws)? Just trying to draw a bead on your dining habits. I have no interest in Petrie's, given the fact that he's had his thumb up his butt.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 11, 2008 9:48 AM PST up reply actions

Fisher

We should have signed him this season.He is playing really well

by kingme on Jan 11, 2008 9:54 AM PST up reply actions

Not a fan

I wasn't a fan of either signing, though I'd say Lobster Claws was the worse of the two, and I don't expect to go back on that one. I definitely prefer the turf to the surf.

by Carl on Jan 11, 2008 10:32 AM PST up reply actions

I am with Carl.

I thought that Salmons had gotten his chance to shine last year and proved that he wasn't exactly up to snuff. In 28 minutes a game last season Salmons really didn't impress. I thought that Petrie had given him way too much cash especially with the way Salmons had handled the Toronto and Phoenix situations. I do still believe that Petrie over paid for Salmons at the time but he is certainly earning the cash now.

I have also called Salmons "chin boobs" when he has his horrible goatee, I stand by that nickname. But I have new respect for his game. I really can't wait to see this team at full capacity.

We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 @ Sactown Royalty on Jan 11, 2008 9:54 AM PST up reply actions

Ever since the cavs game, I had faith.

Ever since we lost that close one at home to the Cavs, Salmons has been huge. In that particular game he was matching Lebron in points and going all out on him on the D side. It was impressive to watch as I was up somewhere near section's seats. You could tell that night that Salmons has something to prove in this league, and its not just a fashion statement about his beard.

by moproblemz on Jan 11, 2008 10:13 AM PST reply actions

Salmons

WOW... Amazing game for Salmons. That effort by Salmons was Jordan-esque similar to Game 5 against the Jazz in the Finals. Salmons made big plays after another and show no ill effects from the flu.

Now... let's see Salmons duplicate the performance when all the starters are back.

The Sacramento Kings: Where Amazing Happens!

by kingme18 on Jan 11, 2008 10:51 AM PST reply actions

no back seat

There is no need for Salmons to take a back seat to Martin. Kevin HAS NEVER been as good an all around player as Salmons is right now. John is a better defender, ball handler, and finisher. And he can get his own shot down the stretch when the baskets get much tougher. I believe he may also lead our team in assists. Kevin is basically a great shooter who does an amazing job getting to the line. He's a perfect 2nd or 3rd option, who tends to disapear at the end of games. (Holy Peja!) But until he gets stronger and becomes a much better ball-handler, he will will not be a "go to" guy. And with his speed, he should be a mad defender. He's not. And there is no excuse for it. Defense is all "want to."

p.s. haven't heard from any of you Cisco-haters today. Where are ya?????!!!! There ain't a guy on this team (Artest aside) with a bigger pair than El Flaco.

by Kusian on Jan 11, 2008 11:01 AM PST reply actions

Exactly what I was thinking

Salmons is a complete player.

About the big Cisco three at the end. I blew my kids away when I told them when the Kings were in a time out and Reggie was huddled drawing up a play. I called Salmons drawing a double or triple team and kicking out to Cisco for the three. They were simply amazed when it happened. But it was an easy call to make, I thought to myself, with Salmons being the main offensive threat and Cisco being clutch money from three lately.

by KingsFan on Jan 11, 2008 11:59 AM PST up reply actions

Cisco

Yea I half expected him to do the Bibby big balls dance back down the floor after that shot.

balls to the walls

by kangsfan on Jan 11, 2008 12:00 PM PST up reply actions

Francisco Garcia:

The Puerto Rican Jamal Mashburn. What yall think?

by thashizzz on Jan 11, 2008 2:24 PM PST up reply actions

Nice try

But Cisco is Dominican.

by Mityt on Jan 11, 2008 2:28 PM PST up reply actions

Their record may stink

But they are damn exciting. Despite their woes, this team has so much hope. Whether it's the massive bulge in El Flaco's shorts, Kevin Martin becoming an all star, Spencer Hawes playing tough, Brad Miller overachieving, John Salmons contributing in every which way, and Beno Udrih becoming a top tier point guard after being signed off waivers! This doesn't even mention players like 3-Will, or D. Jones who we also want to see more of. There just doesn't seem to be enough minutes. The last time I was so excited about this team, I think it was when we traded for Artest and we were making our playoff run. I think Reggie Theus has a lot to do with this.

by CAB on Jan 11, 2008 6:34 PM PST up reply actions

Cisco

Oh my bad, but don't he remind you of Jamal Mashburn?....that was the real point

by thashizzz on Jan 11, 2008 2:32 PM PST reply actions

They both played High School ball in NYC

so they have that in common at the very least.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Jan 11, 2008 3:11 PM PST up reply actions

Also...

Also...
their games are pretty much based on perimeter shooting and some slashing

plus...

Mash was Pittino's first star at Kentucky...

Cisco was Pittino's first star at Louisville...

by thashizzz on Jan 11, 2008 3:41 PM PST up reply actions

And the comparisons end there

Because Mash was more of a star scorer type than Cisco will ever be. Doug Christie is probably who Cisco should aim to be.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Jan 12, 2008 2:38 AM PST up reply actions

Salmons

The only real knock on Salmons is his turnovers. He almost lost the ball on the winning sequence or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

He definitely is one of the top 2 guards at taking it the bucket and creating with a growing collection of moves and shots. His outside shot and passing needs improving, but he plays very solid D, rebounds well and stays pretty well grounded.

Early in the season before K-Mart got hurt and Artest was suspended, Salmons was the team's main weapon at crunch time. I think that's going to continue even when we are at full strength.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 11, 2008 4:08 PM PST reply actions

you might want to check the stats first....

"His outside shot and passing needs improving..."

Salmons has one of the top FG% in the NBA (+50%) and he plays at the 2 and 3 and leads the team in assists.

by Kusian on Jan 11, 2008 5:34 PM PST reply actions

Your stats don't prove your point

I think his FG% is helped by the number of times he drives to the hole. But he is shooting 41% from three, so maybe you have a point.

He's actually third on the team in assists per game behind Udrih and Artest, but he's played more games.

He's also tied for third on the team in turnovers per game and is just positive on TO/assist basis with 3.4-2.7.

There are times when he monopolizes the ball a little too much, which is probably why that play last night worked so well. And why his other kickout pass to Francisco a while back worked well.

He also gets a little lazy on dribbles in transition and has lost the ball quite a few times as guys have caught up with him from behind and tipped the ball away, usually leading to an easy bucket the other way.

Overall, though, he's a helluva player.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 11, 2008 7:55 PM PST reply actions

Yes Salmons has been great

as a starter. He hasn't produced nearly as well off the bench, for whatever reason. I think he's earned a starting spot, and he has helped the team much more as a starter.

Which says to me that we need to do something with Artest. Either trade him(if we don't plan to try and resign him), or start him at the 4(if we do).

I really don't want to see Salmons or Kmart for that matter put back on the bench.

by Kfan in Korea on Jan 11, 2008 9:13 PM PST reply actions

However

Artest has said that he is not a fan of small ball. I'm not a fan of trading him before but I might just be inclined to support it now

by kingme on Jan 11, 2008 10:06 PM PST up reply actions

We aslo need cap space this year

or we will be visiting that wonderful mysterious land known as The Luxury Tax.

Assuming Artest opts out we already have ~51 mil(per hoopshype) in salaries + Martins raise to ~10mil puts us at ~61mil with 9 players signed.

This years tax threshold is 67.9mil, up 2.4mil from last year. So say next years threshold is 70 mil. That gives us about 9 mil to sign Beno and fill out the roster.

Unless we trade Bibby for cap space we aren't going to be able to resign Artest, even if we want to.

by Kfan in Korea on Jan 12, 2008 3:03 AM PST up reply actions

Unless...

...the signing of Artest drives us over the cap, which is OK because of his "Bird" rights. You can then buy out 'Reef and/or K9(woof!). We would still be liable for their salaries, but not for the luxury tax hit for them. That is the one scenario where you could see the Kings buy the poodle out.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 12, 2008 1:22 PM PST up reply actions

Ummm sir

You're wrong about the buyout not affecting luxury tax. I don't where you got that from but it's flat out wrong. It WILL affect the luxury tax just the same. The luxury tax is simply a money threshold that if you cross you pay a dollar for dollar tax.

You might be thinking of the amnesty but that was a one time option that expired in 2005. It'd be nice to have it now to use on a K9 buyout though. Or even Shareef.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Jan 12, 2008 2:03 PM PST up reply actions

Okie

Dokie

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 12, 2008 3:34 PM PST up reply actions

The Luxury Tax is very confusing

One reason for this is that there have been several important changes to the rule that I'm not sure people grasp. The biggest change essentially is this: Before the 2005 CBA every team that didn't pay luxury tax got a share. After the 2005 CBA EVERY team gets a share.

CBA = (C)ollective (B)argaining (A)greement

Let's just say that there is 30 million in luxury tax. Simply put there would be 1 million of tax money issued to every team (given that there is 30 teams and 30 mil in tax and all that). That was a big change from pre 2005 to post 2005 (so yes the rich get rich and all that).

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Jan 13, 2008 2:52 AM PST up reply actions

I thought

the buyout price got divided up over the length of the contract. Not sure about how that affects the tax though:
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#60

Anyway I was assuming that paying tax, and or buyouts(money for nothing) are not going to happen. The Maloofs are rich, but not free spenders like Dolan, Cuban or Allen.

If we don't get some space, signing Artest is out of the question. And we'd be in a tough spot for sign and trades, in that any salary coming back would really hurt us. So if we don't trade Artest, we may see him walk for nothing.

If we move Bibby for ~6mil in space this year(the often talked about Cle deal). We'd have ~15 or so for a shot at Artest, but not Artest and Beno and enough to fill out the roster. If we moved Bibby for all expiring deals, we'd be ok, but that'd probably mean no pick(ie nothing in return for Bibby).

The above is based on my understanding of the cap/tax rules, and I'm in no way an expert, so it could all be wrong. But if I'm right, we've got a serious salary crunch this off season.

by Kfan in Korea on Jan 12, 2008 2:37 PM PST up reply actions

We Need a Sixth Man

Just about every quality team realizes there is only one ball to go around and they balance their second team with one or more of their best players. Barbosa and Ginoboli immediately come to mind. Ben Gordon has also been more effective coming off the bench rather than starting.

Some of our better players are going to have to come off the bench and realize they are still going to get their 20-30 minutes a game. Put the team first.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 11, 2008 10:12 PM PST reply actions

Of course

But for whatever reason Salmons hasn't been as effective off the bench, (this year, last year or in his entire career) as he has been as a starter this year. Now Garcia has been effective both as a starter and as a bench player.

by Kfan in Korea on Jan 12, 2008 2:33 AM PST up reply actions